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Redd
Posts: 1359
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:40 am

Re: Italy LGBT Boycott

Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:05 pm

CitizenJustin wrote:
Redd wrote:
Tiredofhumanity wrote:
If you are a member of the LGBT community and are thinking about travelling to Italy if/when this pandemic gets to a reasonable level of control, consider the following:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.thegua ... law-debate

Advice: if you are a foreigner fall under the LGBT umbrella, do not give ANY Italian a penny.

To EU users: if you criticise the US as being controlled by religion, look in your own backyard.



Italy legalized same sex unions, you can't really get more LGBT friendly than that. What they don't want to do is create anti-hate laws open to interpretation that can limit free speech.

It's a CRAZY proposed law that would also criminalize misogyny. How on God's green earth do you define misogyny in today's femino-centric and anti-white-straight-male world? That would literally make it illegal to make a joke with a female being the butt of that joke, jail for a joke. Hell, you can go to jail for questioning any feminist narrative, as that would be considered misogynistic by the latest wave feminist. The proposed law is anti-free speech, vague, open to interpretation and an extension of a law that already protects people more than adequately. This new proposal is being pushed by the fringe left and disguised as promoting 'tolerance' while all the while behaving fascist

If approved, the new law would be an extension of an existing law that punishes racist violence, hatred and discrimination. In addition, it would criminalize misogyny.


You need to promote awareness to solve hate towards the LGBT.

As for the USA, please, that gate has swung too far. It's now the norm for children who aren't old enough to make a proper decision regarding their diet because their brains are nowhere near developed enough to decide that they are trans and undergo hormonal treatments that are irreversible. Children as young as 7!!! This is nothing short of medical experimentation and a crime against humanity. Not to mention the social and legal acceptation of hundreds made up genders, and accepting this as normal instead of offering psychological treatment for the mentally insane. The USA is an example of what happens when people go too far.



This isn’t some new phenomenon. Issues of gender identity and those who do not conform to one or the other has been documented for thousands of years across cultures separated by vast oceans. Some cultures were more accepting than we are today. Since this has been documented for thousands of years, it seems to me that it’s not uncommon and there’s a more complex explanation than just writing them off as mentally ill, which is what you’re doing. Some scientists have theorized that effeminacy in men could be an evolutionary trait to counteract male aggression. Whatever it is, it’s likely more complicated than what you’re turning it into.

I know several trans women and they’re perfectly normal, productive, functioning people. They’re happy, they’re not depressed or mentally ill. You’ve probably spoken to several throughout your life without even knowing. You don’t get to just tell someone they’re sick because you disagree with their lifestyle. You’re not qualified to diagnose mental disorders. You don’t understand them, therefore you conclude that they must be mentally ill. This is ignorant and simplistic. You’re also picking out the most extreme examples to make your case.

No one thinks there’s hundreds of genders either. You’re exaggerating, which is typical when people make this argument. It’s akin to the gay marriage battle when people said next they’ll legalize marrying animals. The slippery slope argument. What people identify as has zero impact on your life, so I fail to see why you’re so upset. Worry about yourself, not someone else’s life and identity. There’s always someone trying to impose and force their will onto others and it’s really getting old. It comes down to getting the hell out of people’s lives and minding your own business. That’s what I suggest you do.


Trans people are people who transition, no issues and no problems with that, I'm 100% for gay rights.

The issues I brought up, which you aren't acknowledging are:
- Criminalizing misogyny - try to define that
- Allowing transitioning in minors and many instances of children as young as 6 or 7 being given irreversible hormone therapy
- There are hundreds of genders, thousands actually. Legally recognized, that number is 64 in Canada. All of them a flight of fancy, figment of the imagination, a mental disorder called gender dysphoria or just kids going along with this new trend of identifying as something. In the UK teaching kids about these made up absurd genders is part of the elementary school curriculum.
 
skyservice_330
Posts: 1458
Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2000 6:50 am

Re: Italy LGBT Boycott

Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:15 pm

Redd wrote:

Trans people are people who transition, no issues and no problems with that, I'm 100% for gay rights.

The issues I brought up, which you aren't acknowledging are:
- Criminalizing misogyny - try to define that
- Allowing transitioning in minors and many instances of children as young as 6 or 7 being given irreversible hormone therapy
- There are hundreds of genders, thousands actually. Legally recognized, that number is 64 in Canada. All of them a flight of fancy, figment of the imagination, a mental disorder called gender dysphoria or just kids going along with this new trend of identifying as something. In the UK teaching kids about these made up absurd genders is part of the elementary school curriculum.



Can you share the source of the 64 claim? (not suggesting you are wrong, just curious to learn more)
 
Tiredofhumanity
Topic Author
Posts: 152
Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2020 9:27 pm

Re: Italy LGBT Boycott

Wed Dec 02, 2020 6:48 am

steman wrote:
Tiredofhumanity wrote:
If you are a member of the LGBT community and are thinking about travelling to Italy if/when this pandemic gets to a reasonable level of control, consider the following:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.thegua ... law-debate

Advice: if you are a foreigner fall under the LGBT umbrella, do not give ANY Italian a penny.

To EU users: if you criticise the US as being controlled by religion, look in your own backyard.


I am an Italian gay man who left Italy for Germany 15 years ago also because of the LGBT rights (or lack thereof) situation back then.
But I still have very deep contacts with my former Country and with my gay friends there.
Trust me, the situation has improved a lot.
Moreover the article you link is over 3 months old!!! Did you notice that?
The law against homophobia that the article cites has been approved in the meantime.

As others said, Italy is no better and no worse than many other European countries.
I live in Berlin, which has one of Europe´s biggest LGBT communities as well as Europe´s oldest gay neighborhood and there
are episodes of homo/transphobic attacks on a regular basis here too.

If you don´t want to go to Italy because you don´t want to support a Country that, in your eyes, is an enemy of the LGBT Community,
that´s your choice. I do the same with Arab Countries, Russia and others. But I don´t judge gays who want to go on vacation to, say, Dubai or Moscow.


Thanks for your response on this subject - I'm sorry you had to put up with this in your home country.

If you don't mind me asking, why do you think there was such a major difference between Italy and Germany only 15 years ago?
 
steman
Posts: 1670
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2000 4:55 pm

Re: Italy LGBT Boycott

Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:05 am

Tiredofhumanity wrote:
steman wrote:
Tiredofhumanity wrote:
If you are a member of the LGBT community and are thinking about travelling to Italy if/when this pandemic gets to a reasonable level of control, consider the following:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.thegua ... law-debate

Advice: if you are a foreigner fall under the LGBT umbrella, do not give ANY Italian a penny.

To EU users: if you criticise the US as being controlled by religion, look in your own backyard.


I am an Italian gay man who left Italy for Germany 15 years ago also because of the LGBT rights (or lack thereof) situation back then.
But I still have very deep contacts with my former Country and with my gay friends there.
Trust me, the situation has improved a lot.
Moreover the article you link is over 3 months old!!! Did you notice that?
The law against homophobia that the article cites has been approved in the meantime.

As others said, Italy is no better and no worse than many other European countries.
I live in Berlin, which has one of Europe´s biggest LGBT communities as well as Europe´s oldest gay neighborhood and there
are episodes of homo/transphobic attacks on a regular basis here too.

If you don´t want to go to Italy because you don´t want to support a Country that, in your eyes, is an enemy of the LGBT Community,
that´s your choice. I do the same with Arab Countries, Russia and others. But I don´t judge gays who want to go on vacation to, say, Dubai or Moscow.


Thanks for your response on this subject - I'm sorry you had to put up with this in your home country.

If you don't mind me asking, why do you think there was such a major difference between Italy and Germany only 15 years ago?


I cannot speak for the whole of Germany. I am sure there are areas and towns in Germany where the mentality is not as progressive and open as in Berlin or other major cities. However, back then, 2006 more or less, Germany offered a much more open minded and socially advanced society (in my opinion of course and for what concerned my life. Nothing is an absolute). Being openly gay at work has never been an issue for me in Germany. I have never been the subject of discrimination or even jokes. And I felt safer walking hand in hand with my partner on the street in Germany. That´s something that I still would not do in Italy, not even in Rome where I grew up because I would be afraid of being verbally attacked by people.
Another aspect is that back then Germany already had civil unions for same sex couples while Italy was not even debating the possibility to introduce such a law.
But in the meantime Italy has progressed. There´s same sex marriage now and a recently approved law against homophobia. There´s still much to do but it´s going in the right direction.
Anyway, better acceptance of gays was only part of the reason for which I moved to Germany. A much better economy and work perspective was another major incentive to move. And, although I appreciate the many good things that Italy has to offer, I have never really felt at home there. I fit much better in German and North European cultures and society.

Let´s not forget that we are comparing two modern, advanced and liberal societies, both part of the European Union. And as I said, in the past few years Italy has made giant leaps forwards in terms of LGBT rights. It really just gets down to personal issues and feelings but I know of plenty of gays who have a happy and fulfilling life in Italy and who don´t feel threatened or treated as B Class Citizens. It all depends or where you live, where you work and how you feel about yourself and the others.
Outside of the EU is a different story. Even gays in Poland or Hungary are privileged compared to those poor souls in Russia, Arab Countries, Africa or most of Asia.

Long story short, boycotting Italy for its lack of LGBT acceptance is a little excessive in my opinion but it´s a matter of personal choice.
 
JJJ
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Re: Italy LGBT Boycott

Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:23 am

steman wrote:
Outside of the EU is a different story. Even gays in Poland or Hungary are privileged compared to those poor souls in Russia, Arab Countries, Africa or most of Asia.


Well, considering one of Orban's party founders just quit because he was caught on a gay sex orgy even the far-right rhetorists may eventually come to terms with gay rights.

Jozsef Szajer: Hungary MEP quits after allegedly fleeing gay orgy
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-55145989
 
Redd
Posts: 1359
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Re: Italy LGBT Boycott

Wed Dec 02, 2020 9:24 am

skyservice_330 wrote:
Redd wrote:

Trans people are people who transition, no issues and no problems with that, I'm 100% for gay rights.

The issues I brought up, which you aren't acknowledging are:
- Criminalizing misogyny - try to define that
- Allowing transitioning in minors and many instances of children as young as 6 or 7 being given irreversible hormone therapy
- There are hundreds of genders, thousands actually. Legally recognized, that number is 64 in Canada. All of them a flight of fancy, figment of the imagination, a mental disorder called gender dysphoria or just kids going along with this new trend of identifying as something. In the UK teaching kids about these made up absurd genders is part of the elementary school curriculum.



Can you share the source of the 64 claim? (not suggesting you are wrong, just curious to learn more)


I read it on a government website more than a year ago and I can't seem to find the legally recognized genders by the government. But here's a non-official guide.

https://www.healthline.com/health/different-genders#a-d

And a bill passed, called bill C-16 forces Canadians to refer to people by their preferred gender identity. That compelled speech is written into Canada's criminal code. Not refering to someone by their prefered gender pronoun in Canada is a criminal offence.

So if you identify as a military unicorn helicopter, I must refer to you as a military unicorn helicopter or can face criminal charges. In theory anyways, not sure how this new bill is being enforced.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Act_to ... minal_Code
 
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Braybuddy
Posts: 6911
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Re: Italy LGBT Boycott

Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:05 am

Redd wrote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Act_to_amend_the_Canadian_Human_Rights_Act_and_the_Criminal_Code

This is what completely alienates me from the LGBTQ+ community. There is nothing scientific about those definitions -- they are based more on feelings than anything else. A lot of them overlap, and consequently are very confusing. Try memorising that lot! Come back next year and no doubt be a few more will be added :roll: . They look like they were devised by a committee with too much time on it's hands . . . which it probably true.
 
Sokes
Posts: 2731
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: Italy LGBT Boycott

Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:23 am

JJJ wrote:
Well, considering one of Orban's party founders just quit because he was caught on a gay sex orgy even the far-right rhetorists may eventually come to terms with gay rights.

Jozsef Szajer: Hungary MEP quits after allegedly fleeing gay orgy
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-55145989

From your link:
"Most of those present were men, some of whom were naked when police burst in, Belga news agency reports."

I struggle to visualize the police bursting a normal party.
Orban must have powerful enemies.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
steman
Posts: 1670
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2000 4:55 pm

Re: Italy LGBT Boycott

Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:50 am

Sokes wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Well, considering one of Orban's party founders just quit because he was caught on a gay sex orgy even the far-right rhetorists may eventually come to terms with gay rights.

Jozsef Szajer: Hungary MEP quits after allegedly fleeing gay orgy
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-55145989

From your link:
"Most of those present were men, some of whom were naked when police burst in, Belga news agency reports."

I struggle to visualize the police bursting a normal party.
Orban must have powerful enemies.


I think the Belgian Police busted the party because it infringed the current Corona restrictions, not because it was a gay party. Belgium is very advanced in terms of LGBT rights and recognition.
As for Orban, every authoritarian pseudo fascist leader has lots of enemies, it comes with the position. I hugely despise that man and its party but it comes as no surprise to me that one of the founders is allegedly a closeted gay.
 
JJJ
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Re: Italy LGBT Boycott

Wed Dec 02, 2020 1:41 pm

steman wrote:
Sokes wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Well, considering one of Orban's party founders just quit because he was caught on a gay sex orgy even the far-right rhetorists may eventually come to terms with gay rights.

Jozsef Szajer: Hungary MEP quits after allegedly fleeing gay orgy
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-55145989

From your link:
"Most of those present were men, some of whom were naked when police burst in, Belga news agency reports."

I struggle to visualize the police bursting a normal party.
Orban must have powerful enemies.


I think the Belgian Police busted the party because it infringed the current Corona restrictions, not because it was a gay party. Belgium is very advanced in terms of LGBT rights and recognition.


Exactly. The venue was a well-known gay club which was raided because of neighbors complaining about noise and non compliance of COVID restrictions.
 
Sokes
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Re: Italy LGBT Boycott

Wed Dec 02, 2020 2:42 pm

JJJ wrote:

Exactly. The venue was a well-known gay club which was raided because of neighbors complaining about noise and non compliance of COVID restrictions.

The BBC link speaks of a house party.
Anyway your statement makes more sense. At least in Germany the police knocks the doors at house parties. I assume same is true in the rest of Europe.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
JJJ
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Re: Italy LGBT Boycott

Wed Dec 02, 2020 5:13 pm

Sokes wrote:
JJJ wrote:

Exactly. The venue was a well-known gay club which was raided because of neighbors complaining about noise and non compliance of COVID restrictions.

The BBC link speaks of a house party.
Anyway your statement makes more sense. At least in Germany the police knocks the doors at house parties. I assume same is true in the rest of Europe.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytime ... 0p19G=0232

NYT speaks of an all-male party in the middle of the gay club district.

But still if you're making all kinds of noise during lockdown the police will definitely do something more than just knock.
 
94717
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Re: Italy LGBT Boycott

Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:01 am

Jozsef Szajer was funding member the Hungary extreme right party Fidesz and the current extreme anti liberal, LGBT etc etc party.

He is married and Hungary just got a law that a "mother is a mother and a father is a father" ;-)

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... aught.html

He stepped down during the weekend and his party colleges including Hungarian PM Viktor Orban condemned MEP Jozsef Szajer's 'unacceptable and indefensible' behaviour. I wonder if it was the behaviour to break the covid rules they condemned :-)
 
94717
Posts: 2789
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Italy LGBT Boycott

Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:05 am

olle wrote:
Jozsef Szajer was funding member the Hungary extreme right party Fidesz and the current extreme anti liberal, LGBT etc etc party.

He is married and Hungary just got a law that a "mother is a mother and a father is a father" ;-)

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... aught.html

He stepped down during the weekend and his party colleges including Hungarian PM Viktor Orban condemned MEP Jozsef Szajer's 'unacceptable and indefensible' behaviour. I wonder if it was the behaviour to break the covid rules they condemned :-)


Jozsef Szajer and his party together with Poland government has been condemning EU for not paying out money to regions and projects that are defining them self as LGBT free regions or are aginst rights for LGBT people.
 
Redd
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Re: Italy LGBT Boycott

Thu Dec 03, 2020 9:43 am

Braybuddy wrote:
Redd wrote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Act_to_amend_the_Canadian_Human_Rights_Act_and_the_Criminal_Code

This is what completely alienates me from the LGBTQ+ community. There is nothing scientific about those definitions -- they are based more on feelings than anything else. A lot of them overlap, and consequently are very confusing. Try memorising that lot! Come back next year and no doubt be a few more will be added :roll: . They look like they were devised by a committee with too much time on it's hands . . . which it probably true.


I just watched Philadelphia last night with Denzel Washington and Tom Hanks, a film about a lawyer (Hanks) being fired from a big law firm for being gay and having AIDS....It amazes me how far we have come, and how primitive society's approach to gay rights was merely 21 years ago.

That being said, I do think we're also going off the deep end off of the other side. Treating made-up genders that don't exist seriously, and then mandating that the population, under fear of criminal punishment, encourages those same people and treats them seriously is not doing anyone any good. I also don't understand how made up genders fit in to the LGBT movement. Lesbian, Gay, Bi, Trans & Queer are all real, made up genders are not.... Identifying as a made up gender does not make someone trans as far as I can tell.
 
bennett123
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Re: Italy LGBT Boycott

Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:21 am

What exactly is 'Queer'.

Used to be what people called Gays.
 
94717
Posts: 2789
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Italy LGBT Boycott

Thu Dec 03, 2020 1:28 pm

In my view we shall respect and act on people on how thy behave, competence etc and not sex, race and sexual direction.

We all have complicated to adjust to behavior or when things are unusual for us but we need to learn to see thru our own reactions to things that we do not are used to or understand.
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: Italy LGBT Boycott

Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:08 pm

Redd wrote:
That being said, I do think we're also going off the deep end off of the other side. Treating made-up genders that don't exist seriously, and then mandating that the population, under fear of criminal punishment, encourages those same people and treats them seriously is not doing anyone any good. I also don't understand how made up genders fit in to the LGBT movement. Lesbian, Gay, Bi, Trans & Queer are all real, made up genders are not.... Identifying as a made up gender does not make someone trans as far as I can tell.

This is where the LGBTQ+ movement shoots itself in the foot. It has evolved into a narcissistic echo chamber.
 
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seb146
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Re: Italy LGBT Boycott

Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:14 pm

Braybuddy wrote:
Redd wrote:
That being said, I do think we're also going off the deep end off of the other side. Treating made-up genders that don't exist seriously, and then mandating that the population, under fear of criminal punishment, encourages those same people and treats them seriously is not doing anyone any good. I also don't understand how made up genders fit in to the LGBT movement. Lesbian, Gay, Bi, Trans & Queer are all real, made up genders are not.... Identifying as a made up gender does not make someone trans as far as I can tell.

This is where the LGBTQ+ movement shoots itself in the foot. It has evolved into a narcissistic echo chamber.


I don't understand all the alternate genders, either, but if that is how someone wants to live, we should respect that. I think that is what the "echo chamber" is about. Respecting others. Take Harry Styles, for example. If he wants to wear blouses and skirts, why should I get all bent out of shape about it? His body, his life. But, people seem to think they must force him to dress how they want because they are uncomfortable with him being himself. That is what is really at the heart of the whole "pansexual, asexual, nonbinary" argument. Some people do not want to be uncomfortable. Some people want the whole world to live in a tiny little box.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
TSS
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Re: Italy LGBT Boycott

Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:18 pm

bennett123 wrote:
What exactly is 'Queer'.

Used to be what people called Gays.


As near as I can tell, "Queer" serves or did serve as a catch-all for the people who aren't specifically Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, or Trans, but clearly aren't fully Straight, either. Basically, stereotypical Drama/Theater majors and Art majors as well as anyone who is unusually flamboyant in dress or manner.
Able to kill active threads stone dead with a single post!
 
Tiredofhumanity
Topic Author
Posts: 152
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Re: Italy LGBT Boycott

Fri Dec 04, 2020 7:49 am

Aesma wrote:
Everything described in the article is illegal as it is in Italy (breaking and entering, assault, death threats, harassment). The problem is cops not doing their job, and general corruption, not LGBT rights.

Italians are so religious that they're not having kids anymore, I wonder why ?


I don't know what you're talking about. It's well established that Italy is FAR more religious than rest of Western Europe, and even the US non-affiliated percentage is almost double by comparison:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irrelig ... ous%20ones.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irrelig ... 20agnostic.
 
Tiredofhumanity
Topic Author
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Re: Italy LGBT Boycott

Fri Dec 04, 2020 8:02 am

steman wrote:
Tiredofhumanity wrote:
steman wrote:

I am an Italian gay man who left Italy for Germany 15 years ago also because of the LGBT rights (or lack thereof) situation back then.
But I still have very deep contacts with my former Country and with my gay friends there.
Trust me, the situation has improved a lot.
Moreover the article you link is over 3 months old!!! Did you notice that?
The law against homophobia that the article cites has been approved in the meantime.

As others said, Italy is no better and no worse than many other European countries.
I live in Berlin, which has one of Europe´s biggest LGBT communities as well as Europe´s oldest gay neighborhood and there
are episodes of homo/transphobic attacks on a regular basis here too.

If you don´t want to go to Italy because you don´t want to support a Country that, in your eyes, is an enemy of the LGBT Community,
that´s your choice. I do the same with Arab Countries, Russia and others. But I don´t judge gays who want to go on vacation to, say, Dubai or Moscow.


Thanks for your response on this subject - I'm sorry you had to put up with this in your home country.

If you don't mind me asking, why do you think there was such a major difference between Italy and Germany only 15 years ago?


I cannot speak for the whole of Germany. I am sure there are areas and towns in Germany where the mentality is not as progressive and open as in Berlin or other major cities. However, back then, 2006 more or less, Germany offered a much more open minded and socially advanced society (in my opinion of course and for what concerned my life. Nothing is an absolute). Being openly gay at work has never been an issue for me in Germany. I have never been the subject of discrimination or even jokes. And I felt safer walking hand in hand with my partner on the street in Germany. That´s something that I still would not do in Italy, not even in Rome where I grew up because I would be afraid of being verbally attacked by people.
Another aspect is that back then Germany already had civil unions for same sex couples while Italy was not even debating the possibility to introduce such a law.
But in the meantime Italy has progressed. There´s same sex marriage now and a recently approved law against homophobia. There´s still much to do but it´s going in the right direction.
Anyway, better acceptance of gays was only part of the reason for which I moved to Germany. A much better economy and work perspective was another major incentive to move. And, although I appreciate the many good things that Italy has to offer, I have never really felt at home there. I fit much better in German and North European cultures and society.

Let´s not forget that we are comparing two modern, advanced and liberal societies, both part of the European Union. And as I said, in the past few years Italy has made giant leaps forwards in terms of LGBT rights. It really just gets down to personal issues and feelings but I know of plenty of gays who have a happy and fulfilling life in Italy and who don´t feel threatened or treated as B Class Citizens. It all depends or where you live, where you work and how you feel about yourself and the others.
Outside of the EU is a different story. Even gays in Poland or Hungary are privileged compared to those poor souls in Russia, Arab Countries, Africa or most of Asia.

Long story short, boycotting Italy for its lack of LGBT acceptance is a little excessive in my opinion but it´s a matter of personal choice.


Based on my personal opinion, which has also been influenced from what I've heard from other gay Italians living in exile, I would not consider Italy a "modern, advanced, and liberal" society by 2020 standards.

No other western EU country still has 45% of it's population showing such a hatred of LGBT folks that they won't even trust them in any type of leadership position:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/e ... 6?mode=amp

This is roughly where the US was almost 20 years ago during GW Bush's first term.
 
Sokes
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Re: Italy LGBT Boycott

Fri Dec 04, 2020 2:15 pm

olle wrote:
Jozsef Szajer was funding member the Hungary extreme right party Fidesz and the current extreme anti liberal, LGBT etc etc party.

He is married and Hungary just got a law that a "mother is a mother and a father is a father" ;-)

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... aught.html

He claims somebody planted the drug on him. I tend to believe that. Anyway a drug test would be interesting.
Since the EU has a quarrel with his party he should have not given the powerful a chance to humiliate his party.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
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Aesma
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Re: Italy LGBT Boycott

Sat Dec 05, 2020 2:40 pm

seb146 wrote:
I don't understand all the alternate genders, either, but if that is how someone wants to live, we should respect that. I think that is what the "echo chamber" is about. Respecting others. Take Harry Styles, for example. If he wants to wear blouses and skirts, why should I get all bent out of shape about it? His body, his life. But, people seem to think they must force him to dress how they want because they are uncomfortable with him being himself. That is what is really at the heart of the whole "pansexual, asexual, nonbinary" argument. Some people do not want to be uncomfortable. Some people want the whole world to live in a tiny little box.


But at some point it becomes counterproductive. Hiding the fact a man lives with a man or a woman with a woman is silly and so we evolved. But a man wanting to be called by a new "made-up" pronoun is complicating things too much. That person is free to live how he/she/etc. wants, dress in any way, but asking others to learn new pronouns and a way of talking to him/her etc. is unlikely to work. Choose an usual gender for society, and use the new one when in your bubble with like-minded people, deal ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
JJJ
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Re: Italy LGBT Boycott

Sat Dec 05, 2020 3:41 pm

Sokes wrote:
olle wrote:
Jozsef Szajer was funding member the Hungary extreme right party Fidesz and the current extreme anti liberal, LGBT etc etc party.

He is married and Hungary just got a law that a "mother is a mother and a father is a father" ;-)

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... aught.html

He claims somebody planted the drug on him. I tend to believe that. Anyway a drug test would be interesting.
Since the EU has a quarrel with his party he should have not given the powerful a chance to humiliate his party.


The man was caught fleeing the scene. You have to take everything he said with a big grain of salt.

At the time no one knew who he was, much less he was a MEP, it wasn't until the police drove him to his residence that he produced a diplomatic passport. If he'd just stayed at the party and paid the 250 euro fan it's likely no one would have noticed.
 
bennett123
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Re: Italy LGBT Boycott

Sat Dec 05, 2020 3:42 pm

Sokes

Why do you believe that the drugs were planted?.
 
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seb146
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Re: Italy LGBT Boycott

Sat Dec 05, 2020 4:18 pm

Aesma wrote:
seb146 wrote:
I don't understand all the alternate genders, either, but if that is how someone wants to live, we should respect that. I think that is what the "echo chamber" is about. Respecting others. Take Harry Styles, for example. If he wants to wear blouses and skirts, why should I get all bent out of shape about it? His body, his life. But, people seem to think they must force him to dress how they want because they are uncomfortable with him being himself. That is what is really at the heart of the whole "pansexual, asexual, nonbinary" argument. Some people do not want to be uncomfortable. Some people want the whole world to live in a tiny little box.


But at some point it becomes counterproductive. Hiding the fact a man lives with a man or a woman with a woman is silly and so we evolved. But a man wanting to be called by a new "made-up" pronoun is complicating things too much. That person is free to live how he/she/etc. wants, dress in any way, but asking others to learn new pronouns and a way of talking to him/her etc. is unlikely to work. Choose an usual gender for society, and use the new one when in your bubble with like-minded people, deal ?


People in homosexual relationships are being harrassed every day for being. Some people have not evolved to the point where they want to take us back 100 years or more through legislation just so they can be comfortable.

As far as "new made up pronouns" that is not the case at all. It is either he, she, or they. The singer Sam Smith, for example, does not identify with any gender, so the pronouns "they" and "them" are used. Again, I don't get it either, but if that is how they want to live, I don't know why I should be disrespectful to them.
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Sokes
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Re: Italy LGBT Boycott

Sun Dec 06, 2020 6:30 am

bennett123 wrote:
Sokes

Why do you believe that the drugs were planted?.

Long ago in Bavaria there was a member of the state (not central) legislative assembly who wasn't in good terms with the chief minister. He was from a conservative area. There was a scandal that he phoned sex hotlines on taxpayers' cost from his office.
Funny enough at one time of such a phone call he was in a conference with plenty of witnesses. People saw through it. The local party members at the next election chose him again as candidate and he was reelected.

When I read that the police stormed the party I strongly suspected a political background. Politics is a dirty game.
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Braybuddy
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Re: Italy LGBT Boycott

Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:48 am

seb146 wrote:
As far as "new made up pronouns" that is not the case at all. It is either he, she, or they. The singer Sam Smith, for example, does not identify with any gender, so the pronouns "they" and "them" are used. Again, I don't get it either, but if that is how they want to live, I don't know why I should be disrespectful to them.

https://www.mypronouns.org/ze-hir

Which, in itself, causes problems:
https://www.mypronouns.org/mistakes
 
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Re: Italy LGBT Boycott

Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:00 am

Sokes

Is there any evidence that he was framed?.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Italy LGBT Boycott

Sun Dec 06, 2020 12:20 pm

Braybuddy wrote:
seb146 wrote:
As far as "new made up pronouns" that is not the case at all. It is either he, she, or they. The singer Sam Smith, for example, does not identify with any gender, so the pronouns "they" and "them" are used. Again, I don't get it either, but if that is how they want to live, I don't know why I should be disrespectful to them.

https://www.mypronouns.org/ze-hir

Which, in itself, causes problems:
https://www.mypronouns.org/mistakes


xe, ze, sie, co, and ey

This hasn't left the anglosphere yet, but it probably will.

Tiredofhumanity wrote:
I don't know what you're talking about. It's well established that Italy is FAR more religious than rest of Western Europe, and even the US non-affiliated percentage is almost double by comparison:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion_in_Italy

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irrelig ... ted_States


I'm talking about having a large Italian family and nobody is even remotely religious. Which isn't to say they wouldn't identify as Catholics if asked for a poll, it just means they don't set foot in a church for years at a time, outside of weddings/funerals/tourism.

Also, they don't make kids, when the Catholic doctrine is to multiply...
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seb146
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Re: Italy LGBT Boycott

Sun Dec 06, 2020 6:31 pm

Aesma wrote:
Braybuddy wrote:
seb146 wrote:
As far as "new made up pronouns" that is not the case at all. It is either he, she, or they. The singer Sam Smith, for example, does not identify with any gender, so the pronouns "they" and "them" are used. Again, I don't get it either, but if that is how they want to live, I don't know why I should be disrespectful to them.

https://www.mypronouns.org/ze-hir

Which, in itself, causes problems:
https://www.mypronouns.org/mistakes


xe, ze, sie, co, and ey

This hasn't left the anglosphere yet, but it probably will.


I suspect these will go the way of "Latinex" and be dropped. But, again, if someone wants to be referred to by these pronouns, why should I be upset? It makes zero difference to me other than using these pronouns to show that they are respected.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: Italy LGBT Boycott

Sun Dec 06, 2020 10:03 pm

seb146 wrote:
I suspect these will go the way of "Latinex" and be dropped. But, again, if someone wants to be referred to by these pronouns, why should I be upset? It makes zero difference to me other than using these pronouns to show that they are respected.

People can call themselves what they want and I don't think anyone would be upset, but to expect others to call you by your preferred pronouns is a bit presumptuous. I wouldn't have the patience (or be bothered) to remember every person's individual pronoun. It's unbelievably arrogant to expect others to do so. People who do so are best avoided.
 
art
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Re: Italy LGBT Boycott

Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:35 am

Braybuddy wrote:
...to expect others to call you by your preferred pronouns is a bit presumptuous. I wouldn't have the patience (or be bothered) to remember every person's individual pronoun. It's unbelievably arrogant to expect others to do so.


I dislike people being put in descriptive boxes, whether by others or by themselves, so I don't try to keep up. I see people as being part of the ABCDEFGHIJKLMONPQRSTUVWXYZ community. I;m not going to remember how I am supposed to refer to someone identifying with the G or Z or J or W or... community. Personally, I lost track after LGB. No offence intended but I am mystified why people attach such importance to categorising their identity.
 
Sokes
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Re: Italy LGBT Boycott

Mon Dec 07, 2020 1:48 am

bennett123 wrote:
Sokes

Is there any evidence that he was framed?.

Is there any evidence that the Nazis, not the communists burnt the Reichstag?

Is there any evidence that Nero, not the Christians burnt Rome?

" Lucius Cassius, whom the Roman people used to regard as a most honest and most wise judge, was in the habit of asking time and again in lawsuits: "to whom might it be for a benefit?""
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cui_bono

The evidence is the police behaviour. It's not a proof. It's a question of probability.

"In politics and espionage, deniability refers to the ability of a powerful player or intelligence agency to pass the buck and to avoid blowback by secretly arranging for an action to be taken on its behalf by a third party that is ostensibly unconnected with the major player."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plausible_deniability

Conspiracies often leave some evidence that make it look fishy. But most people are happy to believe the official version unless there is clear proof to the opposite. Plausible deniability is easy to achieve.

It is of course possible that what I call evidence is a random event. Maybe the flat in question had a history of noisy parties and a hot headed policeman decided knocking the door isn't necessary.

It also is a fine line between conspiracies and paranoia. But then there is nobody in my family who simply starts trouble apparently without reason. Of course, I by myself can't exclude the possibility that I suffer from paranoia.

IIRC the Wiki article on conspiracy theories earlier had a chapter about ones which happened to be true. It was said that plausible deniability is enough for those doing the conspiracy.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: Italy LGBT Boycott

Mon Dec 07, 2020 8:43 am

art wrote:
No offence intended but I am mystified why people attach such importance to categorising their identity.

I believe is it mostly posturing. Whatever your identify as, that's fine. You know it, and if you're secure in that knowledge you don't need confirmation from others. I'm 100% gay, always have been and always will be, but I've never had a problem with anyone assuming I'm straight (I take it as a compliment, actually). A lot of this offence-taking is manufactured, IMHO.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Italy LGBT Boycott

Mon Dec 07, 2020 4:07 pm

Braybuddy wrote:
art wrote:
No offence intended but I am mystified why people attach such importance to categorising their identity.

I believe is it mostly posturing. Whatever your identify as, that's fine. You know it, and if you're secure in that knowledge you don't need confirmation from others. I'm 100% gay, always have been and always will be, but I've never had a problem with anyone assuming I'm straight (I take it as a compliment, actually). A lot of this offence-taking is manufactured, IMHO.

I thin the issue isn't people "categorizing" themselves, it is that people are categorized by others. By the majority "group whatever" in particular. For millennia people have been isolated when any unique thing is found out about them if it has been "against the accepted norm". I think people would love to just be able to live their lives neither highlighting not having to hide whatever. But at the Christmas party while one person talks about all the things they are doing and how their wife or husband is this or that, and their spouse in in fact their with them, others have for a long time been forced to not speak of their home life and what they and their spouse/partner are doing, and in fact they can't invite their loved one to attend the party. That really sucks.

No categorizing is really desired but anyone in one of "those categories" is hyper-aware that they are, and that there are limits on them as to what they can say, share with others, and do. These are just normal people living normal lives. That is finally starting to change but there are still issues and potential risks. And to repeat myself, that really sucks.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
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seahawk
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Re: Italy LGBT Boycott

Mon Dec 07, 2020 4:21 pm

Yes, that sucks but that is long out of focus of the LGBT movement. I am all for allowing people to love whom they want or identify as what they want, but once you start expecting people to use the "they" pronoum for one person you have lost focus of real problems.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Italy LGBT Boycott

Tue Dec 08, 2020 10:31 am

Sokes : that police got there thanks to a "tip" provided for political reasons is possible, however no raging homophobe will be found having sex with another man/several men if they weren't despicable hypocrites doing what they're condemning others for.

In France we had that famous politician, DSK, who "fell" because of something he did in the US. I don't buy that there was any conspiracy against him, although he was probably the next French president, but the point I want to make is another : he was a well known womanizer, participating in orgies etc., all the journalists knew it, but it wasn't really talked about, why ? Because as a left-wing guy he wasn't trying to control the personal lives of others.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
bennett123
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Re: Italy LGBT Boycott

Tue Dec 08, 2020 12:12 pm

Sokes

Perhaps it would be best to stick facts.

There is no evidence that he was set up or framed.

Perhaps he is just an idiot who thought that he could do what he wanted because he was 'someone'.

Also perhaps he has got away with it in the past because at home he is 'someone'.
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: Italy LGBT Boycott

Tue Dec 08, 2020 2:22 pm

Tugger wrote:
For millennia people have been isolated when any unique thing is found out about them if it has been "against the accepted norm". I think people would love to just be able to live their lives neither highlighting not having to hide whatever. But at the Christmas party while one person talks about all the things they are doing and how their wife or husband is this or that, and their spouse in in fact their with them, others have for a long time been forced to not speak of their home life and what they and their spouse/partner are doing, and in fact they can't invite their loved one to attend the party. That really sucks.

No categorizing is really desired but anyone in one of "those categories" is hyper-aware that they are, and that there are limits on them as to what they can say, share with others, and do. These are just normal people living normal lives. That is finally starting to change but there are still issues and potential risks. And to repeat myself, that really sucks.

Tugg

I dislike this victim complex which permeates the LGBTQI+ movement. The gay community has almost become a protected species, politically at least: you take on the LGBTQ movement at your peril! Despite growing up in "backward" 1960s-70s Ireland I've never felt a "victim" of anything. I never hid my sexuality, but neither did I advertise it. I've been racking my brain, and I can't ever think of encountering any problems over my sexuality. There was no major coming out moment, apart from to my immediate family (3 people) at 21, yet I've never, ever felt discriminated against. I used to bring boyfriends to company parties and introduced them just by their first names. Nobody asked any questions, yet they all knew who they were, and there were never any problems. In fact I remember a very drunk MD at one party even asking me to dance. I was mortified, more because of who he was, and I knew my workmates would be cracking up. Sometimes I think people just need to chill -- and grow a thicker skin.
 
Sokes
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Re: Italy LGBT Boycott

Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:15 am

Aesma wrote:
In France we had that famous politician, DSK, who "fell" because of something he did in the US. I don't buy that there was any conspiracy against him, although he was probably the next French president
...

Maybe, or maybe not.
There may have been a conspiracy to prevent him from becoming French President or to remove him from the post of Managing Director of IMF.
The scandal was in May 2011.

"An IMF report from January 2011[31] called for a stronger role for special drawing rights (SDR) in order to stabilize the global financial system. According to the report, an expanded role for SDRs could help to stabilize the international monetary system. Furthermore, for most countries (except for those using the US dollar as their currency) there would be several advantages in switching the pricing of certain assets, such as oil and gold, from dollars to SDRs. For some commentators, that amounts to a call for a "new world currency that would challenge the dominance of the dollar".[32]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominique_Strauss-Kahn

Or there may have been no conspiracy.
Was the woman who was caught lying send to jail?

As always: plausible deniability is enough.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
Sokes
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Re: Italy LGBT Boycott

Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:22 am

bennett123 wrote:
Sokes

Perhaps it would be best to stick facts.

There is no evidence that he was set up or framed.

Yes, there is. Police don't storm parties. They knock the door.

Do you have evidence that he wasn't framed?

Historians have to look at events from different angles. There are always alternative explanations. Political science or history are not like natural science. It's about estimating probabilities, not about finding "truth" or facts.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
JJJ
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Re: Italy LGBT Boycott

Wed Dec 09, 2020 12:49 pm

Sokes wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
Sokes

Perhaps it would be best to stick facts.

There is no evidence that he was set up or framed.

Yes, there is. Police don't storm parties. They knock the door.


Irrelevant, Szajer was caught on the street after having jumped from the building.

Again, if he's just produced his Hungarian ID he'd just been fined like everyone else. As soon as he showed a MEP card it was a given it was going to make the press rounds.

The morale of the story is don't attend illegal private sex parties during lockdown a mere 100 meters from one of the biggest police stations in Brussels.
 
Sokes
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Re: Italy LGBT Boycott

Wed Dec 09, 2020 1:05 pm

JJJ wrote:
Sokes wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
Sokes

Perhaps it would be best to stick facts.

There is no evidence that he was set up or framed.

Yes, there is. Police don't storm parties. They knock the door.


Irrelevant, Szajer was caught on the street after having jumped from the building.

I don't deny his presence at the party.

I disagree that the police behaviour is irrelevant concerning the question if he was framed or not.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
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Aesma
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Re: Italy LGBT Boycott

Wed Dec 09, 2020 1:30 pm

Sokes wrote:
Or there may have been no conspiracy.
Was the woman who was caught lying send to jail?

As always: plausible deniability is enough.


If you're talking about the victim she wasn't lying about the main facts, I think she was lacking in credibility over other stuff (her family, how she came to the US, things like that), and in the US rape victims lacking in credibility are thrown under a bus, even if there is physical evidence like in this case.

She was going to win her civil lawsuit so DSK settled and she became rich.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
JJJ
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Re: Italy LGBT Boycott

Wed Dec 09, 2020 2:42 pm

Sokes wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Sokes wrote:
Yes, there is. Police don't storm parties. They knock the door.


Irrelevant, Szajer was caught on the street after having jumped from the building.

I don't deny his presence at the party.

I disagree that the police behaviour is irrelevant concerning the question if he was framed or not.


You've clearly never held an illegal party a stone's throw away from a major police station then.
 
bennett123
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Re: Italy LGBT Boycott

Wed Dec 09, 2020 2:58 pm

Sokes

You were the one who alleged that he was framed.

Perhaps you should provide evidence.

It is not for me to prove you wrong
 
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Tugger
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Re: Italy LGBT Boycott

Wed Dec 09, 2020 3:22 pm

Braybuddy wrote:
Tugger wrote:
For millennia people have been isolated when any unique thing is found out about them if it has been "against the accepted norm". I think people would love to just be able to live their lives neither highlighting not having to hide whatever. But at the Christmas party while one person talks about all the things they are doing and how their wife or husband is this or that, and their spouse in in fact their with them, others have for a long time been forced to not speak of their home life and what they and their spouse/partner are doing, and in fact they can't invite their loved one to attend the party. That really sucks.

No categorizing is really desired but anyone in one of "those categories" is hyper-aware that they are, and that there are limits on them as to what they can say, share with others, and do. These are just normal people living normal lives. That is finally starting to change but there are still issues and potential risks. And to repeat myself, that really sucks.

Tugg

I dislike this victim complex which permeates the LGBTQI+ movement. The gay community has almost become a protected species, politically at least: you take on the LGBTQ movement at your peril! Despite growing up in "backward" 1960s-70s Ireland I've never felt a "victim" of anything. I never hid my sexuality, but neither did I advertise it. I've been racking my brain, and I can't ever think of encountering any problems over my sexuality. There was no major coming out moment, apart from to my immediate family (3 people) at 21, yet I've never, ever felt discriminated against. I used to bring boyfriends to company parties and introduced them just by their first names. Nobody asked any questions, yet they all knew who they were, and there were never any problems. In fact I remember a very drunk MD at one party even asking me to dance. I was mortified, more because of who he was, and I knew my workmates would be cracking up. Sometimes I think people just need to chill -- and grow a thicker skin.

Yes, I can only imagine. And quite frankly I do fully agree with you. My key point, also in line with what you are saying, is that people should not throw prejudices and hate in front of others on things that are personal and do no harm otherwise. I don't understand the few people that decide they must get in to someone else's life and "correct" something the perceive as offensive about them or make an issue of something. Just stop.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
Sokes
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Re: Italy LGBT Boycott

Thu Dec 10, 2020 4:47 am

Aesma wrote:
If you're talking about the victim she wasn't lying about the main facts, I think she was lacking in credibility over other stuff (her family, how she came to the US, things like that), and in the US rape victims lacking in credibility are thrown under a bus, even if there is physical evidence like in this case.

She was going to win her civil lawsuit so DSK settled and she became rich.

"A semen sample was found on the maid's shirt, and on 24 May it was reported that DNA tests showed a match to a DNA sample submitted by Strauss-Kahn.[57] He was arraigned on 6 June 2011, and pleaded not guilty.[58] On 30 June 2011, The New York Times reported that the case was on the verge of collapse because of problems with the credibility of the alleged victim, who had, according to sources within the NYPD, repeatedly lied since making her first statement.[59] According to prosecutors, the accuser admitted that she lied to a grand jury about the events surrounding the alleged attack.[60] Diallo said that the translator misunderstood her words.[61][62] Strauss-Kahn was released from house arrest on 1 July.[63]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominique_Strauss-Kahn

So no, it's not about her family and how she came to the US.

To increase credibility of rape victims I am of the opinion that the government must keep a record of such accusations.
In Germany women can repeatedly blame men. If the accused has a good lawyer who can find out earlier accusations he is lucky. But the government isn't interested in protecting men of false accusations.
How is it in the US?

Considering Strauss Kahn's reputation I consider it possible that sex started consensual turning violent. I don't know how the law handles such cases. Of course she needs to be able to change her mind if his preferences leaves the "normal" range, independent if payment was involved or not.

In a rape there is statement versus statement. If the victim shows posttraumatic symptoms it's good evidence. Otherwise I consider the history of both parties as good an evidence as it gets.

IIRC her phone was tapped and she said to a friend that she knows how to extract the most. I don't consider her the classical victim. Otherwise, considering his reputation, I would believe her.

Quite likely it wasn't a conspiracy. One would have to be able to plant the accuser in the hotel and get the management to make exactly this woman clean the room. It really sounds more like a random event.

It's just the accuser's behaviour was so crooked. But then what type of cleaning woman will have sex with random hotel guests?
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