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apodino
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How Both Major US Political Parties can win going forward

Wed Nov 25, 2020 3:00 am

Self Explainatory title. One of the things that I took away from the election is that voters were trying to figure out how to give both parties the Finger at the polls and tell them to shape up. And based on the Rhetoric I have seen from both sides, neither party gets it. So here is what I would do if I were each party.

Democrats

1. Quit with the identity politics. Trump gained among every minority group this election cycle except for whites.
2. Start actually addressing the poor and working class and stop taking them for granted.
3. Start grooming new leaders. The leaders of the Democratic Party at the national level are all in their 70's, and have been in their positions forever. They have not developed new leaders.
4. Stop giving the progressives the finger. What they did to Alex Morse was beyond disgusting, and now Biden seems to be going in an establishment and not populist direction.

Republicans

1. If you truly believe the building block of society is the family, lets start helping the families out. Minimum Wage, paid sick leave, and family leave all help these things, and were approved overwhelmingly by voters even in the reddest of areas.
2. Pass a Covid Stimulus bill.
3. Understand that corporate power does not benefit you or your base. Things like Labor Unions and anti trust laws are things that the GOP should embrace.
4. The Democrats fought hard for the wealthy suburban voter. Let the democrats cater to them, and start catering back to the working class that makes up the GOP base.
5. Understand that Trump came around because you guys ignored the voters and catered to the wealthy.


That's a start for me. I am eager to hear discussion on this.
 
NIKV69
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Re: How Both Major US Political Parties can win going forward

Wed Nov 25, 2020 3:36 am

apodino wrote:
2. Pass a Covid Stimulus bill.


They did and when they wanted to pass another one Nancy Pelosi refused to do so until after the election because she cares more about power than people.
90 Day Fiancé has taught me that Russian woman are excellent.
 
apodino
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Re: How Both Major US Political Parties can win going forward

Wed Nov 25, 2020 4:30 am

NIKV69 wrote:
apodino wrote:
2. Pass a Covid Stimulus bill.


They did and when they wanted to pass another one Nancy Pelosi refused to do so until after the election because she cares more about power than people.

That is not entirely true. Even if Mnuchin and Pelosi agreed on a Stimulus, McConnell would have had a hard time whipping the votes to pass it because many in the senate have reverted to a deficit hawkery mentality. What I do agree on is if Pelosi had allowed Mnuchin to agree on a dollar amount, and passed it through the House and the Senate really didnt pass it, the Dems would have done much better at the polls. Pelosi's games probably will cost the Dem's the senate and it nearly cost them the house when they should have gained seats.
 
maverick4002
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Re: How Both Major US Political Parties can win going forward

Wed Nov 25, 2020 4:31 am

NIKV69 wrote:
apodino wrote:
2. Pass a Covid Stimulus bill.


They did and when they wanted to pass another one Nancy Pelosi refused to do so until after the election because she cares more about power than people.


Delusional
 
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CitizenJustin
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Re: How Both Major US Political Parties can win going forward

Wed Nov 25, 2020 4:42 am

apodino wrote:
Self Explainatory title. One of the things that I took away from the election is that voters were trying to figure out how to give both parties the Finger at the polls and tell them to shape up. And based on the Rhetoric I have seen from both sides, neither party gets it. So here is what I would do if I were each party.

Democrats

1. Quit with the identity politics. Trump gained among every minority group this election cycle except for whites.
2. Start actually addressing the poor and working class and stop taking them for granted.
3. Start grooming new leaders. The leaders of the Democratic Party at the national level are all in their 70's, and have been in their positions forever. They have not developed new leaders.
4. Stop giving the progressives the finger. What they did to Alex Morse was beyond disgusting, and now Biden seems to be going in an establishment and not populist direction.

Republicans

1. If you truly believe the building block of society is the family, lets start helping the families out. Minimum Wage, paid sick leave, and family leave all help these things, and were approved overwhelmingly by voters even in the reddest of areas.
2. Pass a Covid Stimulus bill.
3. Understand that corporate power does not benefit you or your base. Things like Labor Unions and anti trust laws are things that the GOP should embrace.
4. The Democrats fought hard for the wealthy suburban voter. Let the democrats cater to them, and start catering back to the working class that makes up the GOP base.
5. Understand that Trump came around because you guys ignored the voters and catered to the wealthy.


That's a start for me. I am eager to hear discussion on this.



The white supremacists on the right, the religious zealots and hate groups aren’t engaging in identity politics? I don’t know where this myth that only the left has a problem with this comes from. The left wants a diverse country, the right doesn’t. They want a white country preferably. I’d say their identity politics are much more concerning than whatever’s on the left.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: How Both Major US Political Parties can win going forward

Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:41 am

CitizenJustin wrote:
apodino wrote:
Self Explainatory title. One of the things that I took away from the election is that voters were trying to figure out how to give both parties the Finger at the polls and tell them to shape up. And based on the Rhetoric I have seen from both sides, neither party gets it. So here is what I would do if I were each party.

Democrats

1. Quit with the identity politics. Trump gained among every minority group this election cycle except for whites.
2. Start actually addressing the poor and working class and stop taking them for granted.
3. Start grooming new leaders. The leaders of the Democratic Party at the national level are all in their 70's, and have been in their positions forever. They have not developed new leaders.
4. Stop giving the progressives the finger. What they did to Alex Morse was beyond disgusting, and now Biden seems to be going in an establishment and not populist direction.

Republicans

1. If you truly believe the building block of society is the family, lets start helping the families out. Minimum Wage, paid sick leave, and family leave all help these things, and were approved overwhelmingly by voters even in the reddest of areas.
2. Pass a Covid Stimulus bill.
3. Understand that corporate power does not benefit you or your base. Things like Labor Unions and anti trust laws are things that the GOP should embrace.
4. The Democrats fought hard for the wealthy suburban voter. Let the democrats cater to them, and start catering back to the working class that makes up the GOP base.
5. Understand that Trump came around because you guys ignored the voters and catered to the wealthy.


That's a start for me. I am eager to hear discussion on this.



The white supremacists on the right, the religious zealots and hate groups aren’t engaging in identity politics? I don’t know where this myth that only the left has a problem with this comes from. The left wants a diverse country, the right doesn’t. They want a white country preferably. I’d say their identity politics are much more concerning than whatever’s on the left.


Fair enough, but as a basket of goods, both are idiotic. There is no need for whole departments of LGBTQ or womens' studies in multiple universities - simply establishing and protecting rights like pay parity and non-discrimination should be sufficient. Each citizen should have the same protections under law as any other. Hate groups are already monitored and targeted by the FBI and other entities as they should be. Of course more resources are needed as their numbers and reach are growing.

The problem with the loudest and least needed calls from the left is they feed the insecurity and inadequacy of the wackos on the right. It's a merry-go-round of idiots triggering one another.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
NIKV69
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Re: How Both Major US Political Parties can win going forward

Wed Nov 25, 2020 1:01 pm

maverick4002 wrote:
Delusional


Wolf Blitzer didn't think so. :rotfl:
90 Day Fiancé has taught me that Russian woman are excellent.
 
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DL717
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Re: How Both Major US Political Parties can win going forward

Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:32 pm

CitizenJustin wrote:
apodino wrote:
Self Explainatory title. One of the things that I took away from the election is that voters were trying to figure out how to give both parties the Finger at the polls and tell them to shape up. And based on the Rhetoric I have seen from both sides, neither party gets it. So here is what I would do if I were each party.

Democrats

1. Quit with the identity politics. Trump gained among every minority group this election cycle except for whites.
2. Start actually addressing the poor and working class and stop taking them for granted.
3. Start grooming new leaders. The leaders of the Democratic Party at the national level are all in their 70's, and have been in their positions forever. They have not developed new leaders.
4. Stop giving the progressives the finger. What they did to Alex Morse was beyond disgusting, and now Biden seems to be going in an establishment and not populist direction.

Republicans

1. If you truly believe the building block of society is the family, lets start helping the families out. Minimum Wage, paid sick leave, and family leave all help these things, and were approved overwhelmingly by voters even in the reddest of areas.
2. Pass a Covid Stimulus bill.
3. Understand that corporate power does not benefit you or your base. Things like Labor Unions and anti trust laws are things that the GOP should embrace.
4. The Democrats fought hard for the wealthy suburban voter. Let the democrats cater to them, and start catering back to the working class that makes up the GOP base.
5. Understand that Trump came around because you guys ignored the voters and catered to the wealthy.


That's a start for me. I am eager to hear discussion on this.



The white supremacists on the right, the religious zealots and hate groups aren’t engaging in identity politics? I don’t know where this myth that only the left has a problem with this comes from. The left wants a diverse country, the right doesn’t. They want a white country preferably. I’d say their identity politics are much more concerning than whatever’s on the left.


Behold. The ignorance of the left. You don’t understand conservatives one bit. Trump became President because you put up a horrible candidate. He lost because he’s a jackass. Take your labels and can it. Talk about divisiveness. Hang your hat there today, enjoy the flip in 2 and 4 years. All us ignorant rednecks is waiting. Pfft.
Funny. It only took one pandemic for those who argue endlessly about natural selection to stop believing in natural selection.
 
N867DA
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Re: How Both Major US Political Parties can win going forward

Wed Nov 25, 2020 3:06 pm

DL717 wrote:
CitizenJustin wrote:
apodino wrote:
Self Explainatory title. One of the things that I took away from the election is that voters were trying to figure out how to give both parties the Finger at the polls and tell them to shape up. And based on the Rhetoric I have seen from both sides, neither party gets it. So here is what I would do if I were each party.

Democrats

1. Quit with the identity politics. Trump gained among every minority group this election cycle except for whites.
2. Start actually addressing the poor and working class and stop taking them for granted.
3. Start grooming new leaders. The leaders of the Democratic Party at the national level are all in their 70's, and have been in their positions forever. They have not developed new leaders.
4. Stop giving the progressives the finger. What they did to Alex Morse was beyond disgusting, and now Biden seems to be going in an establishment and not populist direction.

Republicans

1. If you truly believe the building block of society is the family, lets start helping the families out. Minimum Wage, paid sick leave, and family leave all help these things, and were approved overwhelmingly by voters even in the reddest of areas.
2. Pass a Covid Stimulus bill.
3. Understand that corporate power does not benefit you or your base. Things like Labor Unions and anti trust laws are things that the GOP should embrace.
4. The Democrats fought hard for the wealthy suburban voter. Let the democrats cater to them, and start catering back to the working class that makes up the GOP base.
5. Understand that Trump came around because you guys ignored the voters and catered to the wealthy.


That's a start for me. I am eager to hear discussion on this.



The white supremacists on the right, the religious zealots and hate groups aren’t engaging in identity politics? I don’t know where this myth that only the left has a problem with this comes from. The left wants a diverse country, the right doesn’t. They want a white country preferably. I’d say their identity politics are much more concerning than whatever’s on the left.


Behold. The ignorance of the left. You don’t understand conservatives one bit. Trump became President because you put up a horrible candidate. He lost because he’s a jackass. Take your labels and can it. Talk about divisiveness. Hang your hat there today, enjoy the flip in 2 and 4 years. All us ignorant rednecks is waiting. Pfft.


Says labels are bad.

Uses labels to describe self.

Almost as if labels in and of themselves are not the problem. Every party caters more to one set of labels. Evangelical Christian is a label. White male is a label. If you think Republicans--and Trump--don't play this game you are delusional. Trump plays up to race and religious themes all the time. These labels are how we determine who will be impacted more than others by certain policies.

That said, I agree with Apodino's take. Democrats (who as of late are in a dumpster fire) need to stop using racial and ethnic labels as a centerpiece of their domestic agenda. Democratic policies tend to help all Americans far more than GOP policies, which throw a few morsels of "growth" to working class people--worse, put money in pockets by punting or eliminating services those same folks get priced out of due to GOP laws. The reason why the Democrats are unappealing to working class people is because despite the policies they are the party of super specific labels. Highly skilled or highly educated laborers are still laborers. Democrats should evolve to be come at truly big tent party with a pro-labor core.

The GOP is a dumpster fire because they've married economic conservative rhetoric with the religious right. The GOP doesn't give a crap about the deficit or economic conservatism or self-reliance at all; they just say things like this to appeal to people who picked up an Ayn Rand in high school and thought it 'just clicked'. They have gotten these Ayn Rand readers in the same bed as Republican Jesus followers and it's off to the races.The GOB is just as label focused; they just focus on different labels. Watch the party that cranked out record deficits suddenly care about every spent penny. It's a miracle! The GOP should go back to being the irreligious genuinely freedom-loving party of Barry Goldwater.

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AirWorthy99
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Re: How Both Major US Political Parties can win going forward

Wed Nov 25, 2020 3:12 pm

apodino wrote:

1. Quit with the identity politics. Trump gained among every minority group this election cycle except for whites.



That's not going to happen. The Democrat party thrives on identity 'issues'. Its not going away, they will double down. And thankfully as a result lose more elections in the future.

You do have a great point in regards to the Republicans and Trump.

The enthusiasm Trump got this last election, despite him losing, will be needed if the GOP wants to win elections in the future.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
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Aaron747
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Re: How Both Major US Political Parties can win going forward

Wed Nov 25, 2020 3:21 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
apodino wrote:

1. Quit with the identity politics. Trump gained among every minority group this election cycle except for whites.



That's not going to happen. The Democrat party thrives on identity 'issues'. Its not going away, they will double down. And thankfully as a result lose more elections in the future.

You do have a great point in regards to the Republicans and Trump.

The enthusiasm Trump got this last election, despite him losing, will be needed if the GOP wants to win elections in the future.


So you’re agreeing with his points? I don’t see you advocating for labor unions, Medicare for all, or enhanced wage/labor protections...because socialism...or something. Also you championed the Trump tax cuts even though they brought a majority of benefits to the wealthy and did not appreciably stimulate job creation as promised. Apodino was arguing against things like that.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: How Both Major US Political Parties can win going forward

Wed Nov 25, 2020 3:31 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
apodino wrote:

1. Quit with the identity politics. Trump gained among every minority group this election cycle except for whites.



That's not going to happen. The Democrat party thrives on identity 'issues'. Its not going away, they will double down. And thankfully as a result lose more elections in the future.

You do have a great point in regards to the Republicans and Trump.

The enthusiasm Trump got this last election, despite him losing, will be needed if the GOP wants to win elections in the future.


So you’re agreeing with his points? I don’t see you advocating for labor unions, Medicare for all, or enhanced wage/labor protections...because socialism...or something. Also you championed the Trump tax cuts even though they brought a majority of benefits to the wealthy and did not appreciably stimulate job creation as promised. Apodino was arguing against things like that.


I agree with the part of democrats dropping their obsession with identity politics, he has a point there. And also in regards to the Trump base, its a force to take seriously and its not going away anytime soon.

This election is not yet over but in reality I see both parties losing, with maybe the GOP winning a bit more than the Democrats. If the two seats in GA stay in the GOP column, the GOP is the winner of the 2020 election, even though they lost the WH, they gained so many seats in the House, basically Pelosi is powerless.

Biden will only do things that in 2024 can be reversed on day one with a new GOP president. And lets face it, Biden will be 82 in 2024, does anyone really think he will run ?
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
bgm
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Re: How Both Major US Political Parties can win going forward

Wed Nov 25, 2020 3:55 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
I agree with the part of democrats dropping their obsession with identity politics, he has a point there.


Well, perhaps when the GOP stop discriminating against these minority groups then there won't be a need? Wild idea I know.

Why do MAGAts insist on wearing red hats and waving Trump flags everywhere? Are they... I dunno... identifying with something? :stirthepot:

The GOP has gone so far off the rails it's not even funny. You have 2 bright sparks coming to congress who are QAnon believers: Marjorie Taylor Greene and Lauren Boebert. This is how low the GOP have sunk.

How many in the GOP recognize Biden's victory, as of today?


One thing that needs to be done is to bring back the Fairness Doctrine. ASAP. When they did away with this in the late 80s, this allowed the breeding ground for all these crackpots on talk radio/cable TV (hello Fox News) etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FCC_fairness_doctrine
 
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casinterest
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Re: How Both Major US Political Parties can win going forward

Fri Nov 27, 2020 9:21 pm

It's very simple for the democrats.

Continue to encourage the folks that like liars to keep watching newsmax, fox news, and OAN. Eventually they will have a fight about who can lie the most, and eventually the older people will die off as the younger folks start to realize the trap they are in and bail out. I have never understood why people pay so time and energy to watch or listen to these right wing/Sinclair broadcast networks. These people do no have any solutions. They just blame others for the problems, and attack those with viable solutions.

For Republicans:
Start to get some integrity and honor back and call out the liars in the right wing media that are not helping solve any issues, but make rich people richer by suckering in poor people with low education to watch ads spaced out with lies and fraud in between.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: How Both Major US Political Parties can win going forward

Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:54 pm

It’s funny how both sides of the debate here are calling for both parties to listen to working people more and adopt policies that benefit the working class (it go more to the left).

I don’t see anyone calling for either party to run on more tax cuts and less government programs.
 
apodino
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Re: How Both Major US Political Parties can win going forward

Sat Nov 28, 2020 12:47 am

sierrakilo44 wrote:
It’s funny how both sides of the debate here are calling for both parties to listen to working people more and adopt policies that benefit the working class (it go more to the left).

I don’t see anyone calling for either party to run on more tax cuts and less government programs.


There is what I call a social left and right and a fiscal left and right. I would argue that both parties are to the right fiscally and are actually not a lot different in who their policies in that regard benefit. The only real difference in the parties is on social issues. One of the things that has happened in recent years is that corporate America has moved to the left on social issues, and its a big part of why Corporate money in recent years has increasingly gone to the Democratic party and less to the GOP. This is why the only people Biden targeted with his campaign were suburban voters. The type of voters who are embedded in that Corporate America culture that increasingly gives the finger to the working class. This is why many in the working class voted GOP this cycle, especially down ballot, and its why Trump actually got the largest share of Minority votes for a GOP candidate since Richard Nixon.

I know the parties technically have different messages from a Fiscal standpoint, but the message is different from policy that is actually implemented. Virginia is a state where the Democrats control everything, yet they only passed a modest Minimum Wage increase, and could not pass legislation to help unions. Colorado is a similar state, but corporate interests are winning out over Green issues at the legislature.


As for the identity politics issue. Here is what I mean. Putting people of color in power does not necessarily mean that their policies will be good for those people. I would argue that Obama's term in office did not help African Americans much at all, and it seems like that that community still lags no matter who is in power, and this is troubling to me. We are hearing talk that there is pressure on Newsom to appoint a person of color to Harris' senate seat? This ignores who might be the most qualified for the seat. I personally believe that either Ro Khanna or Katie Porter are the most qualified for that seat. This is not based on their race, gender or anything like that, this is based on what they actually stand for and do in congress. Likewise, Biden committed to putting a woman on the VP ticket. My personal belief is the most qualified for the VP slot would have been Bernie, or Elizabeth Warren. Again, not based on gender or race, but on what they believe in. However, by saying he was putting a woman, Biden actually discriminated against 50 percent of Americans. But these people in the Democratic establisment push this narrative that every box must be checked in government, and the Black community themselves based on polling I have seen does not agree with this. It's only elite Whites that believe this.

Some in the GOP right now realize that corporate America is not their friend, and neither is the DC establishment, which is exactly what got us Trump. (Even though he still bowed to them when in office, and didn't govern like he ran) The GOP leaders who do realize this will be in the best position to take their party forward in the future. In Congress the people like this are Marco Rubio and Josh Hawley. In the media, the conservatives who understand this are Rachel Bovard, Saagar Enjeti, Marshall Kosloff, and Emily Jashinsky. And many on the left understand how Corporate America continues to run the democratic party and continues to spew the dangers of this. Sadly, people in congress may realize this but will not stand up to their leadership which is why the Democrats never get anything done. Outside of Congress, the liberal media people who understand this are Krystal Ball, Ryan Grim, Jimmy Dore, Kyle Kulinski, and David Sirota. If people on both sides outside of Washington listen to the people I mention, and not Fox News, NewsMax, CNN, MSNBC, OAN, I believe this country would become a much better country.
 
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seb146
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Re: How Both Major US Political Parties can win going forward

Mon Nov 30, 2020 8:07 pm

IIRC, The House passed several bills, some of which would have helped working families, but McConnell and Republicans simply wanted far right wing extremists to be seated as judges across the country. This whole notion of "only Republicans care about families" is bogus. If that were true, Republicans in the Senate and House would have worked their behinds off to help us. They would have worked on an affordable health care plan. They would have worked on a plan to cut student loans. But, all they did was confirm judge after judge after judge, go on break, come back and confirm more judges and tell We The People that Republicans don't have time to help.

But, yeah, lay all the blame 100% on Pelosi........

As far as "Democrats need to stop with identity politics" why? Why should Democrats turn our backs on Blacks, Latinos, LGBTQ+, Women, Asians, Muslims, disabled and focus only on white Christian men? Is that all America is?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
apodino
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Re: How Both Major US Political Parties can win going forward

Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:56 pm

seb146 wrote:
IIRC, The House passed several bills, some of which would have helped working families, but McConnell and Republicans simply wanted far right wing extremists to be seated as judges across the country. This whole notion of "only Republicans care about families" is bogus. If that were true, Republicans in the Senate and House would have worked their behinds off to help us. They would have worked on an affordable health care plan. They would have worked on a plan to cut student loans. But, all they did was confirm judge after judge after judge, go on break, come back and confirm more judges and tell We The People that Republicans don't have time to help.

But, yeah, lay all the blame 100% on Pelosi........

As far as "Democrats need to stop with identity politics" why? Why should Democrats turn our backs on Blacks, Latinos, LGBTQ+, Women, Asians, Muslims, disabled and focus only on white Christian men? Is that all America is?

You know damn well that Pelosi would not have passed a single one of these bills if they had any chance of becoming law. I do agree that McConnell is focused too much on Judges and not on legislating, but I also believe that Pelosi bears some blame here. The only reason she passed all the bills you mention is not because she wanted them to become law, but so that the Democrats could campaign on them. It is the classic way that Washington works, and the GOP was doing it for many years as well. Mnuchin tried and tried and tried to negotiate with Pelosi, but she stood firm. And here is the other thing you don't realize. If Pelosi had taken the deal that Mnuchin was offering, there is a good chance it doesn't pass the senate, and then McConnell and the GOP in the senate is really being unreasonable. Instead, she played hardball so much that even Wolf Blitzer of all people called her out, and the Dems lost a lot of house seats in a year they should have gained seats, and it may also cost them the Senate.


As for the Identity politics, getting away from identity politics is not turning your back on all those groups you focus on and focusing on White Christian men. Identity politics by its nature actually favors certain groups over others. The proof of this is in the Affirmative Action proposition that failed in California. In order to put affirmative action back in in California, they had to remove anti discrimination provisions in the state constitution that prohibit discrimination based on race, gender identity or sexual orientation. If affirmative action is supposed to help these groups, why do you have to eliminate anti discrimination language to implement it?
 
cpd
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Re: How Both Major US Political Parties can win going forward

Mon Nov 30, 2020 10:41 pm

How Both Major US Political Parties can win going forward


That is impossible. One party must lose everything for the other to win. It is winner takes all, isn't it?

Each side must destroy the other, even at the expense of the general public in the USA. :banghead:
 
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seb146
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Re: How Both Major US Political Parties can win going forward

Tue Dec 01, 2020 7:10 pm

apodino wrote:
seb146 wrote:
IIRC, The House passed several bills, some of which would have helped working families, but McConnell and Republicans simply wanted far right wing extremists to be seated as judges across the country. This whole notion of "only Republicans care about families" is bogus. If that were true, Republicans in the Senate and House would have worked their behinds off to help us. They would have worked on an affordable health care plan. They would have worked on a plan to cut student loans. But, all they did was confirm judge after judge after judge, go on break, come back and confirm more judges and tell We The People that Republicans don't have time to help.

But, yeah, lay all the blame 100% on Pelosi........

As far as "Democrats need to stop with identity politics" why? Why should Democrats turn our backs on Blacks, Latinos, LGBTQ+, Women, Asians, Muslims, disabled and focus only on white Christian men? Is that all America is?

You know damn well that Pelosi would not have passed a single one of these bills if they had any chance of becoming law. I do agree that McConnell is focused too much on Judges and not on legislating, but I also believe that Pelosi bears some blame here. The only reason she passed all the bills you mention is not because she wanted them to become law, but so that the Democrats could campaign on them. It is the classic way that Washington works, and the GOP was doing it for many years as well. Mnuchin tried and tried and tried to negotiate with Pelosi, but she stood firm. And here is the other thing you don't realize. If Pelosi had taken the deal that Mnuchin was offering, there is a good chance it doesn't pass the senate, and then McConnell and the GOP in the senate is really being unreasonable. Instead, she played hardball so much that even Wolf Blitzer of all people called her out, and the Dems lost a lot of house seats in a year they should have gained seats, and it may also cost them the Senate.


So, Pelosi did exactly what Republicans did but Pelosi is the bad guy? Besides, the Senate could have taken up any of those bills, made changes, compromised, and made somethign that Democrats would pass. But, no. Instead, Republicans just sat there, seating judges, saying they had no time for any bills, and blame Pelosi and Democrats. Why should ONLY Pelosi budge? Why not Republicans? Why not Mnuchen? Why is it always Democrats and "liberals" who must give?

apodino wrote:
As for the Identity politics, getting away from identity politics is not turning your back on all those groups you focus on and focusing on White Christian men. Identity politics by its nature actually favors certain groups over others. The proof of this is in the Affirmative Action proposition that failed in California. In order to put affirmative action back in in California, they had to remove anti discrimination provisions in the state constitution that prohibit discrimination based on race, gender identity or sexual orientation. If affirmative action is supposed to help these groups, why do you have to eliminate anti discrimination language to implement it?


Just because a bill fails in one state proves nothing. Blacks are still disproportionately jailed, LGBTQ people are still denied rights, voting is still a privilege in many parts of the country. Instead of telling Democrats to abandon "identity politics" maybe Republicans should look at ways they can include Americans. That is what the Democratic "identity politics" is. Telling Black people that they have the right to vote just like their White counterparts or that LGBTQ people have the right to marry and live just like their heterosexual counterparts and that Latinos are intelligent and hard working. That is "identity politics". Including ALL Americans. I don't know why that is a bad thing and I don't know why Democrats must abandon it.

Again: why should only Democrats make concessions? I think it is high time Republicans gave up things. Like their love of racists and their love of ignorance. Republicans should start including ALL Americans instead of leaving many Americans behind.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
apodino
Topic Author
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Re: How Both Major US Political Parties can win going forward

Wed Dec 02, 2020 1:41 am

seb146 wrote:
apodino wrote:
seb146 wrote:
IIRC, The House passed several bills, some of which would have helped working families, but McConnell and Republicans simply wanted far right wing extremists to be seated as judges across the country. This whole notion of "only Republicans care about families" is bogus. If that were true, Republicans in the Senate and House would have worked their behinds off to help us. They would have worked on an affordable health care plan. They would have worked on a plan to cut student loans. But, all they did was confirm judge after judge after judge, go on break, come back and confirm more judges and tell We The People that Republicans don't have time to help.

But, yeah, lay all the blame 100% on Pelosi........

As far as "Democrats need to stop with identity politics" why? Why should Democrats turn our backs on Blacks, Latinos, LGBTQ+, Women, Asians, Muslims, disabled and focus only on white Christian men? Is that all America is?

You know damn well that Pelosi would not have passed a single one of these bills if they had any chance of becoming law. I do agree that McConnell is focused too much on Judges and not on legislating, but I also believe that Pelosi bears some blame here. The only reason she passed all the bills you mention is not because she wanted them to become law, but so that the Democrats could campaign on them. It is the classic way that Washington works, and the GOP was doing it for many years as well. Mnuchin tried and tried and tried to negotiate with Pelosi, but she stood firm. And here is the other thing you don't realize. If Pelosi had taken the deal that Mnuchin was offering, there is a good chance it doesn't pass the senate, and then McConnell and the GOP in the senate is really being unreasonable. Instead, she played hardball so much that even Wolf Blitzer of all people called her out, and the Dems lost a lot of house seats in a year they should have gained seats, and it may also cost them the Senate.


So, Pelosi did exactly what Republicans did but Pelosi is the bad guy? Besides, the Senate could have taken up any of those bills, made changes, compromised, and made somethign that Democrats would pass. But, no. Instead, Republicans just sat there, seating judges, saying they had no time for any bills, and blame Pelosi and Democrats. Why should ONLY Pelosi budge? Why not Republicans? Why not Mnuchen? Why is it always Democrats and "liberals" who must give?


Mnuchen was the one who kept giving and giving and giving in negotations. Pelosi was not budging. But my bigger point is Pelosi not budging was a political mistake. Like I said, what Pelosi should have done was cut a deal with Mnuchen who clearly was willing to make one, and allow Trump to sign off on it. Then it would have easily passed the house. If the senate doesn't want to take it up after that, then McConnell and the republicans Senate can easily be blamed for everything, and the Dems probably win the senate seats in Iowa and North Carolina. Instead, the House Dems got some of the blame for not cutting a deal, and they have lost a lot of seats. If Pelosi cuts a deal, the Dems easily win seats in the House.

Note I am not giving the Senate GOP a pass here. Everyone knows that they are completely unreasonable and out of touch, save for maybe Marco Rubio and Josh Hawley.

seb146 wrote:
apodino wrote:
As for the Identity politics, getting away from identity politics is not turning your back on all those groups you focus on and focusing on White Christian men. Identity politics by its nature actually favors certain groups over others. The proof of this is in the Affirmative Action proposition that failed in California. In order to put affirmative action back in in California, they had to remove anti discrimination provisions in the state constitution that prohibit discrimination based on race, gender identity or sexual orientation. If affirmative action is supposed to help these groups, why do you have to eliminate anti discrimination language to implement it?


Just because a bill fails in one state proves nothing. Blacks are still disproportionately jailed, LGBTQ people are still denied rights, voting is still a privilege in many parts of the country. Instead of telling Democrats to abandon "identity politics" maybe Republicans should look at ways they can include Americans. That is what the Democratic "identity politics" is. Telling Black people that they have the right to vote just like their White counterparts or that LGBTQ people have the right to marry and live just like their heterosexual counterparts and that Latinos are intelligent and hard working. That is "identity politics". Including ALL Americans. I don't know why that is a bad thing and I don't know why Democrats must abandon it.

Again: why should only Democrats make concessions? I think it is high time Republicans gave up things. Like their love of racists and their love of ignorance. Republicans should start including ALL Americans instead of leaving many Americans behind.

That actually is the position of most who vote Republican. The issue is that the identity politics I am talking about is not what you are talking about. Did you know Trump had the highest percentage of Minority votes of a GOP presidential candidate since Nixon? One of the reasons Texas stayed Red is because a good chuck of the Latino vote voted Red. For many, many years, the Democratic party has taken the votes of the Black and minority communities for granted and has done nothing to help them, which is what leads to the other problems that the black community is dealing with. Putting some token minorities in key parts of government to say that the cabinet is diverse is not actually helping these communities.

As for gay marriage, everyone in their right mind knows that ship has sailed.
 
winginit
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Re: How Both Major US Political Parties can win going forward

Wed Dec 02, 2020 1:48 am

Democrats:

- Convince a few million coastal liberals to take their voting habits with them to predominantly sunbelt cities in traditionally red states like Atlanta, Nashville, Austin, Charlotte, Raleigh, and various cities in Florida where the fortunes they made in tech or some other liberal-leaning industry can go further. The end.

(this is already happening)

Republicans:

- Prevent Trump from running again in 2024. Failure to do so will complete the fall of the GOP of yesteryear lead by figures such as McCain and Romney, and cement the GOP as the party of (ironically given the President-elect) old white men and racist views especially in the minds of the next generation of voters
 
LCDFlight
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Re: How Both Major US Political Parties can win going forward

Wed Dec 02, 2020 2:03 am

Both parties are equally corrupt. I think the rancor is good (the insults on both sides are devastatingly accurate). I hope the insults and rancor continue. That's the one thing I agree with in American politics. Obama was pretty good, but we can't expect another honest politician in the coming decades. Let's face that fact and always remember that politicians are liars. We should limit their involvement in American life.
 
apodino
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Re: How Both Major US Political Parties can win going forward

Wed Dec 02, 2020 3:14 am

LCDFlight wrote:
Both parties are equally corrupt. I think the rancor is good (the insults on both sides are devastatingly accurate). I hope the insults and rancor continue. That's the one thing I agree with in American politics. Obama was pretty good, but we can't expect another honest politician in the coming decades. Let's face that fact and always remember that politicians are liars. We should limit their involvement in American life.

Obama was no saint. Obama was really good at communicating BS in a way that seemed honest and made you believe it. The fact of the matter is though, Obama's policies benefitted wall street and those at the top. Obama sounded like someone who cared, and wants you to believe that, but this was just a smokescreen to conceal what was really going on. And too many people have bought it hook line and sinker, which is not easy to do because Trump didn't hide his BS, so Obama seemed even more believeable.
 
MaverickM11
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Re: How Both Major US Political Parties can win going forward

Wed Dec 02, 2020 6:39 pm

apodino wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
Both parties are equally corrupt. I think the rancor is good (the insults on both sides are devastatingly accurate). I hope the insults and rancor continue. That's the one thing I agree with in American politics. Obama was pretty good, but we can't expect another honest politician in the coming decades. Let's face that fact and always remember that politicians are liars. We should limit their involvement in American life.

Obama was no saint. Obama was really good at communicating BS in a way that seemed honest and made you believe it. The fact of the matter is though, Obama's policies benefitted wall street and those at the top. Obama sounded like someone who cared, and wants you to believe that, but this was just a smokescreen to conceal what was really going on. And too many people have bought it hook line and sinker, which is not easy to do because Trump didn't hide his BS, so Obama seemed even more believeable.

There is "equally corrupt" and "no saint" and then there's unleashing and then repeating wilder and crazier conspiracy theories while your henchmen call for the murder of people in your own party who are still living in reality. The GOP is a looney tunes death cult that is objectively pro pandemic and anti democracy.
I don't take responsibility at all
 
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seb146
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Re: How Both Major US Political Parties can win going forward

Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:23 pm

apodino wrote:
That actually is the position of most who vote Republican. The issue is that the identity politics I am talking about is not what you are talking about. Did you know Trump had the highest percentage of Minority votes of a GOP presidential candidate since Nixon? One of the reasons Texas stayed Red is because a good chuck of the Latino vote voted Red. For many, many years, the Democratic party has taken the votes of the Black and minority communities for granted and has done nothing to help them, which is what leads to the other problems that the black community is dealing with. Putting some token minorities in key parts of government to say that the cabinet is diverse is not actually helping these communities.

As for gay marriage, everyone in their right mind knows that ship has sailed.


Just because 15% is greater than 14% proves nothing. So MAGA "got a higher per cent"? So what? That is like all these righties who scream about the 99.9998% survival rate of covid. They don't care about those who have died, those children who have lost parents, those who now have lower lung function and are disabled, teens and young adults who have stroke after stroke but, yeah, this is a good thing.

I do agree that simply putting a minority in a position of power is meaningless. Look at how Betsy DeVos and Ben Carson both devastated their respective offices. It's not that Democrats put minorities in positions of power and say "look at all the minorities in positions of power" but, rather, "look at this person's history" and "this person came from nothing and is now president on his own". That is the biggest difference.

And, no, marriage equality ship has not sailed. Why do you think McConnell has been seating so many right wing extremists who are viewing our laws through the lens of their version of the Bible? Not just marriage equality but abortion and voting rights and faith based (read; Christian) education as well.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
LCDFlight
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Re: How Both Major US Political Parties can win going forward

Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:31 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
apodino wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
Both parties are equally corrupt. I think the rancor is good (the insults on both sides are devastatingly accurate). I hope the insults and rancor continue. That's the one thing I agree with in American politics. Obama was pretty good, but we can't expect another honest politician in the coming decades. Let's face that fact and always remember that politicians are liars. We should limit their involvement in American life.

Obama was no saint. Obama was really good at communicating BS in a way that seemed honest and made you believe it. The fact of the matter is though, Obama's policies benefitted wall street and those at the top. Obama sounded like someone who cared, and wants you to believe that, but this was just a smokescreen to conceal what was really going on. And too many people have bought it hook line and sinker, which is not easy to do because Trump didn't hide his BS, so Obama seemed even more believeable.

There is "equally corrupt" and "no saint" and then there's unleashing and then repeating wilder and crazier conspiracy theories while your henchmen call for the murder of people in your own party who are still living in reality. The GOP is a looney tunes death cult that is objectively pro pandemic and anti democracy.


I totally agree, and I also agree with the people accusing the DNC of total corruption, greed and meddling in every election they can. Talking about murder, and your candidate personally authorized the Iraq invasion? Completely bizarre. Both sides.
 
MaverickM11
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Re: How Both Major US Political Parties can win going forward

Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:29 pm

apodino wrote:
That actually is the position of most who vote Republican. The issue is that the identity politics I am talking about is not what you are talking about. Did you know Trump had the highest percentage of Minority votes of a GOP presidential candidate since Nixon? One of the reasons Texas stayed Red is because a good chuck of the Latino vote voted Red. For many, many years, the Democratic party has taken the votes of the Black and minority communities for granted and has done nothing to help them, which is what leads to the other problems that the black community is dealing with. Putting some token minorities in key parts of government to say that the cabinet is diverse is not actually helping these communities.


IdEntIty PoLitIcs.... I guess christian white nationalism, the muslim ban, kicking transgender people out of the military, calling Mexicans rapists and murders, white hot anti immigrant--specifically the non white immigrants--rage is not identity politics? That's all just kumbaya rising above identity politics? :rotfl: How noble.

apodino wrote:
As for gay marriage, everyone in their right mind knows that ship has sailed.

Really. Someone should notify the GOP who still demand to overturn it in their platform, nominated endless raging anti-LGBT judges, and are more than happy to have a Supreme Court who are heeding their platform demand and vocally calling for the overturn gay marriage.

LCDFlight wrote:
meddling in every election they can.

Such as?
I don't take responsibility at all
 
apodino
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Re: How Both Major US Political Parties can win going forward

Thu Dec 03, 2020 9:54 pm

seb146 wrote:
I do agree that simply putting a minority in a position of power is meaningless. Look at how Betsy DeVos and Ben Carson both devastated their respective offices. It's not that Democrats put minorities in positions of power and say "look at all the minorities in positions of power" but, rather, "look at this person's history" and "this person came from nothing and is now president on his own". That is the biggest difference.


What I see happening with all these nominees is that the fact that they are minorities or women are being flaunted every chance they get in order to gaslight people, and its a diversion tactic because they don't want you looking under the surface to see what is really there. For example, the three people being pitched for Defense Secretary are all either Women or Black, and the media is reminding you of this every chance they get. What they don't tell you is that all three have extensive ties with Wall Street firms with big holding in defense contractors who will benefit most by bloated Pentagon spending. With the Devos or Carson nominations, they were never touted as being black or minority, and it was very obvious what their views were. It's just not that big a deal to GOP voters, who don't care what your skin color or Gender are.

MaverickM11 wrote:
Really. Someone should notify the GOP who still demand to overturn it in their platform, nominated endless raging anti-LGBT judges, and are more than happy to have a Supreme Court who are heeding their platform demand and vocally calling for the overturn gay marriage.


seb146 wrote:
And, no, marriage equality ship has not sailed. Why do you think McConnell has been seating so many right wing extremists who are viewing our laws through the lens of their version of the Bible? Not just marriage equality but abortion and voting rights and faith based (read; Christian) education as well.


First of all the GOP doesn't even have a platform anymore, as the convention basically said whatever Trumps position is is the position of the party. Secondly, in order for Obergfell to be overturned someone would have to bring a case before the supreme court regarding this matter. Who is actually going to bring such a lawsuit? No state government will, because any state that tried is going to get all their elected officials voted out of office. Would a religious group have standing to bring a lawsuit? All the court can tell them is they don't have to perform Gay Marriages in the Church, but it won't eliminate Gay Marriage at all. I just don't see a legal way that this actually happens. As for McConnell, I don't think he actually cares about this issue at all, but his corporate donors all support Gay Marriage and I think the Judges are more to benefit corporate America than anyone. If people are that worried about the court overturning this though, there is such an easy fix to this. Simply pass a law through Congress to be signed by Biden that enshrines this into law. Doing so wouldn't even give the courts a chance to decide this issue. And I actually believe this is the way it should have been done all along. Every other civilized nation passed this via the legislative process by elected officials. We did it through Judicial Activism by unelected judges. That is a problem.
 
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Tugger
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Re: How Both Major US Political Parties can win going forward

Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:10 pm

apodino wrote:
Secondly, in order for Obergfell to be overturned someone would have to bring a case before the supreme court regarding this matter. Who is actually going to bring such a lawsuit? No state government will, because any state that tried is going to get all their elected officials voted out of office. Would a religious group have standing to bring a lawsuit? All the court can tell them is they don't have to perform Gay Marriages in the Church, but it won't eliminate Gay Marriage at all. I just don't see a legal way that this actually happens. As for McConnell, I don't think he actually cares about this issue at all, but his corporate donors all support Gay Marriage and I think the Judges are more to benefit corporate America than anyone.

The court case to begin to dismantle same-sex marriage rights is already on it way:
On Monday, Indiana Attorney General Curtis Hill asked the Supreme Court to strip same-sex couples of their equal parenting rights. He did so at the request of the court, which is considering taking up his case. Hill implored the new conservative majority to rule that states may deny married same-sex couples the right to be recognized as parents of their own children.
[...]
When a married opposite-sex couple uses a sperm donor, Indiana recognizes the birth mother’s husband as the child’s parent. When a married same-sex couple does the same thing, however, the state refuses to list the birth mother’s wife as the child’s parent. In both instances, the second parent has no biological connection to the child; Indiana’s decision to extend parental rights to the nonbiological husbands of birth mothers, but not the wives of birth mothers, is sheer discrimination.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/202 ... court.html
Not marriage directly but attacks one of the foundational elements of a marriage. We'll see what our new USSC decides.... Hopefully they get it right but we will have to wait and see. And more things like this will be coming, you can be sure of it.

apodino wrote:
If people are that worried about the court overturning this though, there is such an easy fix to this. Simply pass a law through Congress to be signed by Biden that enshrines this into law. Doing so wouldn't even give the courts a chance to decide this issue. And I actually believe this is the way it should have been done all along. Every other civilized nation passed this via the legislative process by elected officials. We did it through Judicial Activism by unelected judges. That is a problem.

I see the Republican's minority section that is virulently against any advance of equal treatment of citizens, oh wait... I'm sorry I have the wrong... any advance of the gay agenda will be held up, fought against and stalled or blocked. There is no way "that ship has sailed" for them.

It is pathetic that people really want to not treat people, married couples in this case, equally when there is NO HARM to any function, person, or business.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
MaverickM11
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Re: How Both Major US Political Parties can win going forward

Fri Dec 04, 2020 12:13 am

apodino wrote:
First of all the GOP doesn't even have a platform anymore, as the convention basically said whatever Trumps position is is the position of the party. Secondly, in order for Obergfell to be overturned someone would have to bring a case before the supreme court regarding this matter. Who is actually going to bring such a lawsuit? No state government will, because any state that tried is going to get all their elected officials voted out of office. Would a religious group have standing to bring a lawsuit? All the court can tell them is they don't have to perform Gay Marriages in the Church, but it won't eliminate Gay Marriage at all. I just don't see a legal way that this actually happens. As for McConnell, I don't think he actually cares about this issue at all, but his corporate donors all support Gay Marriage and I think the Judges are more to benefit corporate America than anyone. If people are that worried about the court overturning this though, there is such an easy fix to this. Simply pass a law through Congress to be signed by Biden that enshrines this into law. Doing so wouldn't even give the courts a chance to decide this issue. And I actually believe this is the way it should have been done all along. Every other civilized nation passed this via the legislative process by elected officials. We did it through Judicial Activism by unelected judges. That is a problem.

You think the people who were objectively pro AIDS because it was killing people they hate suddenly stopped caring about destroying LGBTQ rights just because Trump showed up for a hot minute? Whether he is in the picture or not they will get back to their time honored business of destroying minority rights asap. And honestly what would Trump do to stop it? He doesn't care about anything but himself. That's why the republicans and evangelicals venerate him--they share the same values of greed, vengeance, and unhinged bigotry. I was a log cabin republican 20 years ago because I thought we could change the party from the inside and since then they've only gotten more anti LGBTQ, with no end in sight.

Tugger wrote:
apodino wrote:
Secondly, in order for Obergfell to be overturned someone would have to bring a case before the supreme court regarding this matter. Who is actually going to bring such a lawsuit? No state government will, because any state that tried is going to get all their elected officials voted out of office. Would a religious group have standing to bring a lawsuit? All the court can tell them is they don't have to perform Gay Marriages in the Church, but it won't eliminate Gay Marriage at all. I just don't see a legal way that this actually happens. As for McConnell, I don't think he actually cares about this issue at all, but his corporate donors all support Gay Marriage and I think the Judges are more to benefit corporate America than anyone.

The court case to begin to dismantle same-sex marriage rights is already on it way:
On Monday, Indiana Attorney General Curtis Hill asked the Supreme Court to strip same-sex couples of their equal parenting rights. He did so at the request of the court, which is considering taking up his case. Hill implored the new conservative majority to rule that states may deny married same-sex couples the right to be recognized as parents of their own children.

Plus conversion therapy is bubbling up again, which to remind our viewers at home, is child abuse--usually mental and physical abuse.

Trump Judges Strike Down Bans On LGBTQ ‘Conversion Therapy’
https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisondurk ... 5179cc3d7e
I don't take responsibility at all
 
TARTRESED
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Re: How Both Major US Political Parties can win going forward

Fri Dec 04, 2020 3:12 am

The Republican Party is showing itself to be hopeless. They are infested with totally batshit crazy people from top to bottom. They are doomed if people take off their blinders and actually look.
 
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seb146
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Re: How Both Major US Political Parties can win going forward

Fri Dec 04, 2020 3:44 pm

apodino wrote:
seb146 wrote:
I do agree that simply putting a minority in a position of power is meaningless. Look at how Betsy DeVos and Ben Carson both devastated their respective offices. It's not that Democrats put minorities in positions of power and say "look at all the minorities in positions of power" but, rather, "look at this person's history" and "this person came from nothing and is now president on his own". That is the biggest difference.


What I see happening with all these nominees is that the fact that they are minorities or women are being flaunted every chance they get in order to gaslight people, and its a diversion tactic because they don't want you looking under the surface to see what is really there. For example, the three people being pitched for Defense Secretary are all either Women or Black, and the media is reminding you of this every chance they get. What they don't tell you is that all three have extensive ties with Wall Street firms with big holding in defense contractors who will benefit most by bloated Pentagon spending. With the Devos or Carson nominations, they were never touted as being black or minority, and it was very obvious what their views were. It's just not that big a deal to GOP voters, who don't care what your skin color or Gender are.


The ones making a big deal about the diversity are right wingers. What I hear from left wing media is "this person is being nominated because here are their qualifications". They are not related to Biden and do not owe Biden any money or favors. The cabinet reflects America. And that is a yuge problem for MAGA.

apodino wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
Really. Someone should notify the GOP who still demand to overturn it in their platform, nominated endless raging anti-LGBT judges, and are more than happy to have a Supreme Court who are heeding their platform demand and vocally calling for the overturn gay marriage.


seb146 wrote:
And, no, marriage equality ship has not sailed. Why do you think McConnell has been seating so many right wing extremists who are viewing our laws through the lens of their version of the Bible? Not just marriage equality but abortion and voting rights and faith based (read; Christian) education as well.


First of all the GOP doesn't even have a platform anymore, as the convention basically said whatever Trumps position is is the position of the party. Secondly, in order for Obergfell to be overturned someone would have to bring a case before the supreme court regarding this matter. Who is actually going to bring such a lawsuit? No state government will, because any state that tried is going to get all their elected officials voted out of office. Would a religious group have standing to bring a lawsuit? All the court can tell them is they don't have to perform Gay Marriages in the Church, but it won't eliminate Gay Marriage at all. I just don't see a legal way that this actually happens. As for McConnell, I don't think he actually cares about this issue at all, but his corporate donors all support Gay Marriage and I think the Judges are more to benefit corporate America than anyone. If people are that worried about the court overturning this though, there is such an easy fix to this. Simply pass a law through Congress to be signed by Biden that enshrines this into law. Doing so wouldn't even give the courts a chance to decide this issue. And I actually believe this is the way it should have been done all along. Every other civilized nation passed this via the legislative process by elected officials. We did it through Judicial Activism by unelected judges. That is a problem.


Law suits have been filed by religious people. Remember the bakers and caterers and the county clerk in Kentucky? Religion (read: Christianity) is more important than equality. But Republicans want to fight the already settled case because they now control the courts. They can overturn already litigated cases. Right wing extremists legislating from the bench. Marriage equality is enshrined in the Constitution. Republicans will never ever support LGBTQ equality ever because their evangelical base will not allow them to.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
apodino
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Re: How Both Major US Political Parties can win going forward

Sat Dec 05, 2020 5:08 am

seb146 wrote:
The ones making a big deal about the diversity are right wingers. What I hear from left wing media is "this person is being nominated because here are their qualifications". They are not related to Biden and do not owe Biden any money or favors. The cabinet reflects America. And that is a yuge problem for MAGA.

Oh really, is that so. I was reading this article from CNN today about the names for Attorney General. In the article, it is mentioned that Biden likes both Sally Yates and Doug Jones, but will likely not appoint either of them because they are white.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/04/politics/biden-attorney-general-search/index.html

Furthermore, there are other articles on CNN that talk about Biden's nominees from a historic perspective on Race and Gender. Also, Diversity is a word that CNN goes out of its way frequently to highlight. I don't see this on the right. The Right actually looks at qualifications, not a persons race or gender.

If you want to talk about qualifications, I suggest you listen to the Young Turks, Secular Talk, or Jimmy Dore. All progressive talk shows, and all who have issues with many of the people Biden is naming.

apodino wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Law suits have been filed by religious people. Remember the bakers and caterers and the county clerk in Kentucky? Religion (read: Christianity) is more important than equality. But Republicans want to fight the already settled case because they now control the courts. They can overturn already litigated cases. Right wing extremists legislating from the bench. Marriage equality is enshrined in the Constitution. Republicans will never ever support LGBTQ equality ever because their evangelical base will not allow them to.


Is the base of the Republican Party right now currently Evangelical or Corporate? I sure as hell can't tell. But based on the policies that Mitch McConnell has pursued as Majority Leader, he firmly believes that the base of his party is the corporate donor class. In fact, if you look at the people in the US Senate, more GOP senators than not are from the Corporate Wing of the Party and not the Evangelical part of the party. In fact, one major GOP donor supports same sex marriage, abortion rights, unlimited immigration, etc. All of these things are actually part of the Democratic platform, but these people donate more to GOP. I of course am talking about the Koch Brothers. And if you look at the culture around corporate america, they are all about the things I mentioned, which is why I said that same sex marriage is a boat that's sailed. The Corporate Class will win out every time over the Evangelical Class in the GOP, which is actually one of the reasons Trump actually won four years ago. And of course he was a false prophet.

I do disagree with one thing you said. If Same Sex marriage is enshrined in the constitution, show me the exact language where its defined, and show me the exact date when two thirds of both houses and three fourths of the states ratified it? Since this exact language was never actually enacted by the legislative process as it should have, and in fact no where in the constitution is marriage of any kind even mentioned, the case was decided on an interpretation of the constitution that says the document itself changes to reflect the times, rather than be amended through the legislative process. This actually makes the courts more political than they should be. It never should come to this. That is why I say do it through the legislative process. It is not hard to come up with a bill that would pass both houses (McConnell is not going to sit on a bill with his corporate donors screaming in his hear to pass it) that would settle this once and for all and not even give the courts a chance to rule the other way on ths.

I should point out that I do believe Same Sex Marriage should be legal and the law, but I do have a big problem with it being done through the judicial and not the legislative process. That is all I am saying here.
 
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seb146
Posts: 23734
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: How Both Major US Political Parties can win going forward

Sat Dec 05, 2020 4:32 pm

apodino wrote:
seb146 wrote:
The ones making a big deal about the diversity are right wingers. What I hear from left wing media is "this person is being nominated because here are their qualifications". They are not related to Biden and do not owe Biden any money or favors. The cabinet reflects America. And that is a yuge problem for MAGA.

Oh really, is that so. I was reading this article from CNN today about the names for Attorney General. In the article, it is mentioned that Biden likes both Sally Yates and Doug Jones, but will likely not appoint either of them because they are white.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/04/politics/biden-attorney-general-search/index.html

Furthermore, there are other articles on CNN that talk about Biden's nominees from a historic perspective on Race and Gender. Also, Diversity is a word that CNN goes out of its way frequently to highlight. I don't see this on the right. The Right actually looks at qualifications, not a persons race or gender.

If you want to talk about qualifications, I suggest you listen to the Young Turks, Secular Talk, or Jimmy Dore. All progressive talk shows, and all who have issues with many of the people Biden is naming.


Interesting the article you linked to mentions the many, many reasons why both will be difficult to confirm. One reason is how toxic Barr has made them both out to be and the Republican Senate wants guarantees that Barr's special council must be left to investigate Biden.

Oh, yeah, way way way way way down the article, there is one mention of their skin color. But, yeah, that is the only thing that matters?

apodino wrote:
apodino wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Law suits have been filed by religious people. Remember the bakers and caterers and the county clerk in Kentucky? Religion (read: Christianity) is more important than equality. But Republicans want to fight the already settled case because they now control the courts. They can overturn already litigated cases. Right wing extremists legislating from the bench. Marriage equality is enshrined in the Constitution. Republicans will never ever support LGBTQ equality ever because their evangelical base will not allow them to.


Is the base of the Republican Party right now currently Evangelical or Corporate? I sure as hell can't tell. But based on the policies that Mitch McConnell has pursued as Majority Leader, he firmly believes that the base of his party is the corporate donor class. In fact, if you look at the people in the US Senate, more GOP senators than not are from the Corporate Wing of the Party and not the Evangelical part of the party. In fact, one major GOP donor supports same sex marriage, abortion rights, unlimited immigration, etc. All of these things are actually part of the Democratic platform, but these people donate more to GOP. I of course am talking about the Koch Brothers. And if you look at the culture around corporate america, they are all about the things I mentioned, which is why I said that same sex marriage is a boat that's sailed. The Corporate Class will win out every time over the Evangelical Class in the GOP, which is actually one of the reasons Trump actually won four years ago. And of course he was a false prophet.

I do disagree with one thing you said. If Same Sex marriage is enshrined in the constitution, show me the exact language where its defined, and show me the exact date when two thirds of both houses and three fourths of the states ratified it? Since this exact language was never actually enacted by the legislative process as it should have, and in fact no where in the constitution is marriage of any kind even mentioned, the case was decided on an interpretation of the constitution that says the document itself changes to reflect the times, rather than be amended through the legislative process. This actually makes the courts more political than they should be. It never should come to this. That is why I say do it through the legislative process. It is not hard to come up with a bill that would pass both houses (McConnell is not going to sit on a bill with his corporate donors screaming in his hear to pass it) that would settle this once and for all and not even give the courts a chance to rule the other way on ths.

I should point out that I do believe Same Sex Marriage should be legal and the law, but I do have a big problem with it being done through the judicial and not the legislative process. That is all I am saying here.


The Republican party has done a fantastic job of serving two masters. The corporate masters and the racist, evangelical, violent masters who vote the corporate machine into office. The corporates do not want to lose the grift. Look at all the Republicans who have not denounced their leader. Reports are saying that at least 200 Republicans in Congress refuse to acknowledge Biden won. They choose to believe the lie there was massive voter fraud. This appeals to both their leader and their rabid base. And, bonus, they get to keep making money hand over fist! Look at how many Senators are millionaires. On their salary. You think that happens just by being elected?

Marriage equality is the law. It is Republicans trying to get that already decided legislation repealed. It is great you think marriage equality should be law, but it is not "liberals" and Democrats who are litigating. Thanks to McConnell, he has politicized the courts. He has found so much time to confirm extremist right wing judges to legislate from the bench but zero time to take up bills passed out of the House. I think it would have been to his and his party's advantage to take up those bills. If they are as terrible as you think they are, he would have been able to show the entire country how bad they are. But, he decided seating extremist judges was much more useful. To top it off, he lied to We The People telling us that the House has done nothing when, in fact, there were multiple bills sitting waiting for Senate committees to debate them and amend them. The Constitutional process. But, instead, seating judges was his top and only priority.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18715
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: How Both Major US Political Parties can win going forward

Wed Dec 09, 2020 3:33 pm

apodino wrote:
Furthermore, there are other articles on CNN that talk about Biden's nominees from a historic perspective on Race and Gender. Also, Diversity is a word that CNN goes out of its way frequently to highlight. I don't see this on the right. The Right actually looks at qualifications, not a persons race or gender.

OMG LOL :rotfl: oh god I can't breathe. You actually think the right "looks at qualifications". The best qualified of Trump's white direct relatives.

apodino wrote:
Is the base of the Republican Party right now currently Evangelical or Corporate? I sure as hell can't tell. But based on the policies that Mitch McConnell has pursued as Majority Leader, he firmly believes that the base of his party is the corporate donor class. In fact, if you look at the people in the US Senate, more GOP senators than not are from the Corporate Wing of the Party and not the Evangelical part of the party. In fact, one major GOP donor supports same sex marriage, abortion rights, unlimited immigration, etc. All of these things are actually part of the Democratic platform, but these people donate more to GOP. I of course am talking about the Koch Brothers. And if you look at the culture around corporate america, they are all about the things I mentioned, which is why I said that same sex marriage is a boat that's sailed. The Corporate Class will win out every time over the Evangelical Class in the GOP, which is actually one of the reasons Trump actually won four years ago. And of course he was a false prophet.

Without evangelicals there is no GOP, so as much as the GOP may bend to the corporate and donor class, they will always share their combined white grievance and raging homophobia with the evangelicals. And ultimately the corporate/donor class largely does not care because the vitriol is not directed at them. They can slap a rainbow flag on and pretend nothing is happening.
I don't take responsibility at all
 
cledaybuck
Posts: 1901
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:07 pm

Re: How Both Major US Political Parties can win going forward

Wed Dec 09, 2020 3:50 pm

apodino wrote:
Is the base of the Republican Party right now currently Evangelical or Corporate? I sure as hell can't tell. But based on the policies that Mitch McConnell has pursued as Majority Leader, he firmly believes that the base of his party is the corporate donor class. In fact, if you look at the people in the US Senate, more GOP senators than not are from the Corporate Wing of the Party and not the Evangelical part of the party. In fact, one major GOP donor supports same sex marriage, abortion rights, unlimited immigration, etc. All of these things are actually part of the Democratic platform, but these people donate more to GOP. I of course am talking about the Koch Brothers. And if you look at the culture around corporate america, they are all about the things I mentioned, which is why I said that same sex marriage is a boat that's sailed. The Corporate Class will win out every time over the Evangelical Class in the GOP, which is actually one of the reasons Trump actually won four years ago. And of course he was a false prophet.

McConnell bows down to corporate interests because of what you say. If he doesn't keep them happy, they will leave. The Evangelicals aren't going anywhere.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
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zippyjet
Posts: 5189
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2001 3:32 pm

Re: How Both Major US Political Parties can win going forward

Wed Feb 03, 2021 11:24 pm

Both parties should pay attention to the majority of us who are in the middle. There are many who may have hot button issues where they are on the extreme left or extreme right but, generally are right down the middle. Too much of anything can spell trouble. Both parties pander to their extremes. While we in the middle get to bicker with each other. I guess that makes more news copy. Primary elections in all states should be open so, you are not limited to your party affiliation. At least in Maryland you can only vote your parties slate of candidates. And if you are an independent you are basically out of luck. Try to get rid of jerrymandering. Standardize voting procedures nationwide. Regarding Electoral College there are pros and cons. Many pro Electoral college advocates in both parties feel if we went to a popular vote candidates would pay all their attention to the populated centers. The Coasts, big cities etc. A compromise? Instead of winner take all electoral votes, do what they do in I believe Maine or New Hampshire? Count electoral votes by their congressional district. Imagine the difference in populated states like Texas, California and Florida. Even a small state like Maryland can have diverse votes.
I'm Zippyjet & I approve this message!
 
FGITD
Posts: 1599
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:44 pm

Re: How Both Major US Political Parties can win going forward

Thu Feb 04, 2021 4:42 am

It would appear the GOP gave that nut job Greene a standing ovation at a closed door meeting.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 97361.html

Conservatism must continue to live on. It’s vital aspect of the political spectrum. There are many good, decent conservatives out there.

The Republican Party on the other hand must go. They literally gave a standing ovation to an anti Semitic, racist, conspiracy theorist. The party is celebrating a woman who called for the execution of opponents, and harassed children who survived a mass shooting event. Oh and let us not forget that she also supported an insurrection to try and overthrow the government.

That party doesn’t need to move forward. It is about a century out of date.

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