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stratosphere
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Trump pardons Gen Flynn

Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:22 pm

Trump pardoned Gen Michael Flynn. I am glad he did. No matter how you feel about Trump the rabid hatred for Trump from the media and everyone else they used anything and everything to ensnare all these Trump people in process crimes or no crimes at all. Flynn was a victim of entrapment. The fiasco at Roger Stones house with the SWAT team was beyond ridiculous too.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald ... i-n1249031
 
B717fan
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Re: Trump pardons Gen Flynn

Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:23 pm

Flynn LIED to the FBI...TWICE. He belongs in prison.
 
apodino
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Re: Trump pardons Gen Flynn

Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:35 pm

stratosphere wrote:
Trump pardoned Gen Michael Flynn. I am glad he did. No matter how you feel about Trump the rabid hatred for Trump from the media and everyone else they used anything and everything to ensnare all these Trump people in process crimes or no crimes at all. Flynn was a victim of entrapment. The fiasco at Roger Stones house with the SWAT team was beyond ridiculous too.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald ... i-n1249031

It is for this reason that I would not have accepted the pardon if I were Flynn because you have to admit guilt to accept a pardon and I wouldn't do this if I were Flynn. Flynn's only crime was falling into a perjury trap the FBI laid for him. The only purpose of the FBI interview was not to get information but to get Flynn to lie so that they could prosecute him, and this is a very sad state. Incidentally, Flynn was accused of violating the Logan Act by talking to the Russians, but the Biden transition team is already talking to foreign diplomats which is also a violation of the Logan Act. Why wasn't it ok for Flynn, but its ok for Biden's folks to do so?
 
alfa164
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Re: Trump pardons Gen Flynn

Wed Nov 25, 2020 11:00 pm

stratosphere wrote:
Trump pardoned Gen Michael Flynn. I am glad he did. No matter how you feel about Trump the rabid hatred for Trump from the media and everyone else they used anything and everything to ensnare all these Trump people in process crimes or no crimes at all.


Nobody forced Flynn to lie; he did it knowingly. and was appropriately charged.


B717fan wrote:
Flynn LIED to the FBI...TWICE. He belongs in prison.


Flynn lied to the FBI; Flynn lied to VP Pence. Despite what the rooty-tooty right-wing hooties say, Flynn is a criminal who was pardoned only because he was doing Trump's dirty work.


apodino wrote:
It is for this reason that I would not have accepted the pardon if I were Flynn because you have to admit guilt to accept a pardon and I wouldn't do this if I were Flynn. Flynn's only crime was falling into a perjury trap the FBI laid for him. The only purpose of the FBI interview was not to get information but to get Flynn to lie so that they could prosecute him, and this is a very sad state.


Flynn himself initially pled guilty, and stated in open Court it was because he was guilty. It was only after the tempting suggestion of a pardon that he decided he should withdraw that plea, which gave Barr the opportunity to utilize the Justice Department to do Trump's bidding. The Judge in the case obviously sensed a rat (in more ways than one, I am sure) and has not dismissed the case.

I find it pathetic that so many members of Herr Trump's cult find it inspiring for a guilty man to go free.
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Tugger
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Re: Trump pardons Gen Flynn

Thu Nov 26, 2020 12:43 am

Yesterday's news. So not news really.

Everyone knew it was coming.

The question is who else will Trump pardon?
(Besides himself. That's not news either)

Tugg
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NIKV69
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Re: Trump pardons Gen Flynn

Thu Nov 26, 2020 12:54 am

Not a surprise. Obama pardoned some guy who lied to the feds. Who cares. The Blood lust is getting old.
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Aaron747
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Re: Trump pardons Gen Flynn

Thu Nov 26, 2020 1:26 am

DOJ says they were confident they would prevail against Flynn in court, but that this is an appropriate application of POTUS pardon power. On balance that is a legally sound statement.
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Francoflier
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Re: Trump pardons Gen Flynn

Thu Nov 26, 2020 1:41 am

NIKV69 wrote:
Not a surprise. Obama pardoned some guy who lied to the feds. Who cares. The Blood lust is getting old.


Did that person lie to the Feds to protect Obama?

I really have a problem with people who pretend to lack the cognitive ability to understand the difference in intent between previous presidents pardoning people and Trump pardoning people who just so happened to be investigated and charged as a result of their dealings with him...
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alfa164
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Re: Trump pardons Gen Flynn

Thu Nov 26, 2020 1:49 am

Francoflier wrote:
I really have a problem with people who pretend to lack the cognitive ability to understand the difference in intent between previous presidents pardoning people and Trump pardoning people who just so happened to be investigated and charged as a result of their dealings with him...


... especially when the pardonee is in a position to expose some of the pardoner's wrong-doings... until the suggestion that a pardon might grease his way out of trouble...

:roll:
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bgm
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Re: Trump pardons Gen Flynn

Thu Nov 26, 2020 2:18 am

Thankfully Trump cannot pardon himself, and even if he could, it would only be related to federal crimes. Hello, SDNY, he's all yours!
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Trump pardons Gen Flynn

Thu Nov 26, 2020 2:50 am

bgm wrote:
Thankfully Trump cannot pardon himself, and even if he could, it would only be related to federal crimes. Hello, SDNY, he's all yours!

As has been said: to accept a pardon means to admit guilt. Imagine how it'll sound when he thoroughly admits that he's guilty of all the things he's pardoning himself for...which the SDNY will happily seize on. He may have avoided the IRS, but NY's equivalent won't be so eager to ignore it.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
tommy1808
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Re: Trump pardons Gen Flynn

Thu Nov 26, 2020 6:05 am

stratosphere wrote:
Flynn was a victim of entrapment.


He was not "a victim of entrapment"

Flynn committed serious crimes
During the investigation he committed more crimes - lying to the FBI
at some point his lawyer told him something along the lines "better try to get a plea deal or you will die in Prison"
He plead guilty to the lesser charges, lying to the FBI

If lying to the FBI had not been a possible guilty plead, he would have plead guilty to one or more other charges, or plead not guilty, get convicted and spend a long, long time in prison.

If he was a victim of entrapment, just about every single person in US prisons was.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
vrbarreto
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Re: Trump pardons Gen Flynn

Thu Nov 26, 2020 7:32 am

There's talk that this could all backfire on the Donald.. If he is pardoned apparently he can no longer invoke his 5th amendment rights:

https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-p ... ynn-2020-3
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Trump pardons Gen Flynn

Thu Nov 26, 2020 7:40 am

stratosphere wrote:
Trump pardoned Gen Michael Flynn. I am glad he did. No matter how you feel about Trump the rabid hatred for Trump from the media and everyone else they used anything and everything to ensnare all these Trump people in process crimes or no crimes at all. Flynn was a victim of entrapment. The fiasco at Roger Stones house with the SWAT team was beyond ridiculous too.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald ... i-n1249031


If you want people to look at the matter objectively, you should start your post with being objective. Your post is far from objective. What we know, objectively, Flynn was convicted by a court of law. Your unobjective view is "Flynn was a victim of entrapment. Facts can't be viewed as hatred or something else. Facts are just that: facts. And the court has established the facts in this case.

After these established facts, "Flynn lied to the FBI", Trump decided to give him a pardon. Now we can debate if that is the correct thing to do. But everyone can acknowledge that it is kind of strange because the Trump administration was being investigated by the FBI. During this investigation, Flynn lied to the FBI. That makes that the Trump administration has a vested interest in the case.
Last edited by Dutchy on Thu Nov 26, 2020 7:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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tommy1808
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Re: Trump pardons Gen Flynn

Thu Nov 26, 2020 7:47 am

Dutchy wrote:
stratosphere wrote:
Trump pardoned Gen Michael Flynn. I am glad he did. No matter how you feel about Trump the rabid hatred for Trump from the media and everyone else they used anything and everything to ensnare all these Trump people in process crimes or no crimes at all. Flynn was a victim of entrapment. The fiasco at Roger Stones house with the SWAT team was beyond ridiculous too.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald ... i-n1249031


If you want people to look at the matter objectively, you should start your post with being objective. Your post is far from objective. What we know, objectively, Flynn was convicted by a court of law. Your unobjective view is "Flynn was a victim of entrapment. Facts can't be viewed as hatred or something else. Facts are just facts. And the court has established the facts in this case.


most importantly: Lying to the FBI was just what he pleaded guilty to, the rest was just dropped because he plead guilty.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Trump pardons Gen Flynn

Thu Nov 26, 2020 8:03 am

Just a question. Why does the president of the United States even have these powers? By its very nature, he is a politician. We learnt from Montesquieu, it is a good thing to have a division in powers.

As a foreigner to the US, I find this very odd.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Sokes
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Re: Trump pardons Gen Flynn

Thu Nov 26, 2020 8:14 am

Dutchy wrote:
Just a question. Why does the president of the United States even have these powers? By its very nature, he is a politician. We learnt from Montesquieu, it is a good thing to have a division in powers.

As a foreigner to the US, I find this very odd.

+1
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ltbewr
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Re: Trump pardons Gen Flynn

Thu Nov 26, 2020 9:32 am

Dutchy wrote:
Just a question. Why does the president of the United States even have these powers? By its very nature, he is a politician. We learnt from Montesquieu, it is a good thing to have a division in powers.
As a foreigner to the US, I find this very odd.

The power to pardon along with reducing of sentences and giving death row prisoners reprieves or transfer to life imprisonment of the US President and by US State Governors is based on the power of pardon of Kings/Queens. In part it is to allow for resolution of miscarriages of justice. One problem is that it can be used for political reasons and such abuses have far too often happened.
 
bennett123
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Re: Trump pardons Gen Flynn

Thu Nov 26, 2020 10:27 am

I thought the US was dead against all that Kings and Queens stuff.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Trump pardons Gen Flynn

Thu Nov 26, 2020 10:33 am

Dutchy wrote:
Just a question. Why does the president of the United States even have these powers? By its very nature, he is a politician. We learnt from Montesquieu, it is a good thing to have a division in powers.

As a foreigner to the US, I find this very odd.


Why wouldn´t he, it is traditionally a power heads of state have, and in the US the president happens to be the head of state. They have no Willem-Alexander to decide clemency... the German President can do the same, he just needs to find a single member of government to sign it too. Few countries i can think of have a deliberate process with little leeway behind it, the Netherlands being one of them. But then again the Netherlands practically invented the rule of law, so you are ahead of the curve...

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
tommy1808
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Re: Trump pardons Gen Flynn

Thu Nov 26, 2020 10:34 am

bennett123 wrote:
I thought the US was dead against all that Kings and Queens stuff.


They are against it, but the founding fathers imagination had limits too, and hence the President retained a lots of King/Queen stuff that modern republics have done away with.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
bennett123
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Re: Trump pardons Gen Flynn

Thu Nov 26, 2020 11:13 am

bgm

I seem to recall him speculating that COULD pardon himself.

Did that get resolved.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Trump pardons Gen Flynn

Thu Nov 26, 2020 11:39 am

bennett123 wrote:
bgm

I seem to recall him speculating that COULD pardon himself.

What's the biggie? He does it every other day, on the golf course. It's called a "Mulligan".
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
VolvoBus
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Re: Trump pardons Gen Flynn

Thu Nov 26, 2020 2:07 pm

vrbarreto wrote:
There's talk that this could all backfire on the Donald.. If he is pardoned apparently he can no longer invoke his 5th amendment rights:

https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-p ... ynn-2020-3


If you read the Business Insider article, note the name of Flynn's legal counsel when he withdrew his guilty plea - Sydney Powell. Could this be the same Sydney Powell who recently served as part of Rudy Giuliani's three ring circus , or didn't, depending on who you read and when ?
 
tommy1808
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Re: Trump pardons Gen Flynn

Thu Nov 26, 2020 2:23 pm

VolvoBus wrote:
vrbarreto wrote:
There's talk that this could all backfire on the Donald.. If he is pardoned apparently he can no longer invoke his 5th amendment rights:

https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-p ... ynn-2020-3


If you read the Business Insider article, note the name of Flynn's legal counsel when he withdrew his guilty plea - Sydney Powell. Could this be the same Sydney Powell who recently served as part of Rudy Giuliani's three ring circus , or didn't, depending on who you read and when ?


well..... https://www.politico.com/news/2020/09/2 ... ing-422925

Flynn lawyer spoke with Trump, she reveals in contentious hearing
The attorney, Sidney Powell, said she recently briefed the president on the case and asked him not to issue a pardon.


best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
bgm
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Re: Trump pardons Gen Flynn

Thu Nov 26, 2020 3:45 pm

bennett123 wrote:
bgm

I seem to recall him speculating that COULD pardon himself.

Did that get resolved.


https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... lf/617170/

In part, many believe that Trump's disproven claims of election fraud are just a ploy to run the clock that will eventually land him behind bars. So the question is, what kind of power does the president really have to pardon himself? According to Article II of the Constitution, a sitting president “shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offenses against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment.” That may sound like we have already answered the question; however, therein lies a small yet important technicality within that phrase that requires some unpacking. The operative word? Grant.

Because of this, we are actually asking the wrong question: It's not about whether Trump can pardon himself, but whether he can grant himself a pardon. This may sound like the exact same question but bear with us. According to context clues from the text of the Constitution and the word’s meaning at the time it was written, the answer is no. He cannot pardon himself. The president only has the power to grant pardons. For context, the same word appears multiple times in various clauses of the Constitution. Every time the word appears, "grant" is a transmissive term meaning it is from one entity to another, reports The Atlantic. It is not used reflexively as in “to grant oneself” a pardon — it is always used interpersonally.


https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/2020/1 ... egal-rules

As I said before, even if he could pardon himself (which it seems he really can't), then those pardons would only be for federal crimes, not state crimes. Also, as others said, by pardoning himself he admits guilt.
 
bennett123
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Re: Trump pardons Gen Flynn

Thu Nov 26, 2020 3:53 pm

Thanks for clarifying the situation.
 
DLFREEBIRD
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Re: Trump pardons Gen Flynn

Fri Nov 27, 2020 7:21 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
Not a surprise. Obama pardoned some guy who lied to the feds. Who cares. The Blood lust is getting old.


the bloodlust as you called it was from Acting Director James Comey not Obama.

retired gen. James Cartwright
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Car ... %2C%202011.

Cartwright was accused of providing classified information that was published in the book Confront and Conceal by David Sange Cartwright was never charged with leaking any classified information; Sanger maintains that Cartwright did not provide him with any classified material. On October 17, 2016, Cartwright pleaded guilty to misleading the FBI regarding an investigation into the source of leaked classified information. He had been scheduled to be sentenced on January 31, 2017, but was pardoned and had his security clearance restored by President Barack Obama on January 17, 2017

Retired Gen Cartwright had innocently talked to FBI agents, without a attorney present. He became sick during the interview, passed out and was hospitalized. Because he became sick during the interview the FBI thought they were on to his guilt. After four years of relentlessly investigating Cartwright they couldn't prove his guilt but they could prove that he had mislead FBI during the interview. Obama was set to leave office, The integrity of James Comey was at question, for many things including re-opening a closed investigation into Hillary Clinton with less than a week to the election which turned out to have no merit. However, the timing of Comey was highly suspect and may of cost Clinton the election. Later James Comey , admitted to sending agents to trip up Flynn as well. This seems to be standard operating practice, charge them with something, if you can't prove it then charge them with misleading the FBI, which is a felony and will cost them their security clearance and end their careers. At the end of the day. Trump and Obama have the right to pardon since the FBI seems to have a problem when politics is involved.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Trump pardons Gen Flynn

Fri Nov 27, 2020 9:14 pm

A guilty lying Crook pardoned by a crook. The issue for Trump is someone is gong to need to pardon him, and at this point, it looks like Trump will be in jail for years,
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
apodino
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Re: Trump pardons Gen Flynn

Sat Nov 28, 2020 12:12 am

Here is a video with a liberal/progressive point of view on why what happened to Flynn is troubling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xB26jj0jrjc
 
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Aesma
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Re: Trump pardons Gen Flynn

Sat Nov 28, 2020 9:16 am

I don't get the "entrapment" argument. Isn't entrapment legal in the US, and used everyday to put people behind bars, sometimes for life ?

If you don't like it, stop voting for GOP "law & order" types, maybe ?
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bennett123
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Re: Trump pardons Gen Flynn

Sat Nov 28, 2020 9:28 am

Why would you speak to the FBI without a lawyer?.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Trump pardons Gen Flynn

Tue Dec 01, 2020 8:05 am

Aesma wrote:
I don't get the "entrapment" argument. Isn't entrapment legal in the US, and used everyday to put people behind bars, sometimes for life ?

If you don't like it, stop voting for GOP "law & order" types, maybe ?


Most importantly, he wasn´t entrapped ....

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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casinterest
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Re: Trump pardons Gen Flynn

Wed Dec 02, 2020 3:16 pm

Flynn is calling for martial law and upending of American Democracy.

https://www.newsweek.com/michael-flynn- ... at-1551769
ormer national security adviser Michael Flynn—controversially pardoned by President Donald Trump last week—on Tuesday retweeted a call for the White House to declare martial law and re-run last month's presidential election.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
bennett123
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Re: Trump pardons Gen Flynn

Wed Dec 02, 2020 3:44 pm

Gets better all the time.
 
bennett123
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Re: Trump pardons Gen Flynn

Wed Dec 02, 2020 3:47 pm

What is limited martial law?.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Trump pardons Gen Flynn

Wed Dec 02, 2020 4:37 pm

casinterest wrote:
Flynn is calling for martial law and upending of American Democracy.

https://www.newsweek.com/michael-flynn- ... at-1551769
ormer national security adviser Michael Flynn—controversially pardoned by President Donald Trump last week—on Tuesday retweeted a call for the White House to declare martial law and re-run last month's presidential election.


Paying his debt I presume....

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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casinterest
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Re: Trump pardons Gen Flynn

Wed Dec 02, 2020 4:48 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Flynn is calling for martial law and upending of American Democracy.

https://www.newsweek.com/michael-flynn- ... at-1551769
ormer national security adviser Michael Flynn—controversially pardoned by President Donald Trump last week—on Tuesday retweeted a call for the White House to declare martial law and re-run last month's presidential election.


Paying his debt I presume....

Best regards
Thomas


I assume so, and I am sure their will be more of this quid pro quo.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
MaverickM11
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Re: Trump pardons Gen Flynn

Wed Dec 02, 2020 5:36 pm

apodino wrote:
Here is a video with a liberal/progressive point of view on why what happened to Flynn is troubling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xB26jj0jrjc

How did I know it was Glenn Greenwald before even clicking. The guy lost his mind years ago.
tommy1808 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Flynn is calling for martial law and upending of American Democracy.

https://www.newsweek.com/michael-flynn- ... at-1551769
ormer national security adviser Michael Flynn—controversially pardoned by President Donald Trump last week—on Tuesday retweeted a call for the White House to declare martial law and re-run last month's presidential election.


Paying his debt I presume....

Best regards
Thomas

This is middle of the road GOP behavior--they are objectively anti democracy and Trump has just allowed their freak flags to fly in polite company
I don't take responsibility at all
 
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Tugger
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Re: Trump pardons Gen Flynn

Wed Dec 02, 2020 6:53 pm

To be pardoned, you have to be guilty, found guilty of whatever crime first. It has to be specific with detail and there is no blanket "you can't be convicted ever for whatever in the future by the feds" pardon.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
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moo
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Re: Trump pardons Gen Flynn

Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:15 pm

Tugger wrote:
To be pardoned, you have to be guilty, found guilty of whatever crime first. It has to be specific with detail and there is no blanket "you can't be convicted ever for whatever in the future by the feds" pardon.

Tugg


The text of Richard Nixons pardon by Ford is notably absent of anything like specifics, although it does limit it to a time period:

(preamble removed, but feel free to read it at the link below)

Now, THEREFORE, I, GERALD R. FORD, President of the United States, pursuant to the pardon power conferred upon me by Article II, Section 2, of the Constitution, have granted and by these presents do grant a full, free, and absolute pardon unto Richard Nixon for all offenses against the United States which he, Richard Nixon, has committed or may have committed or taken part in during the period from January 20, 1969 through August 9,1974.


https://www.fordlibrarymuseum.gov/libra ... 740061.asp
 
LMP737
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Re: Trump pardons Gen Flynn

Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:35 pm

casinterest wrote:
Flynn is calling for martial law and upending of American Democracy.

https://www.newsweek.com/michael-flynn- ... at-1551769
ormer national security adviser Michael Flynn—controversially pardoned by President Donald Trump last week—on Tuesday retweeted a call for the White House to declare martial law and re-run last month's presidential election.


I'm just wondering how this guy ever got a star on his shoulder boards. If I didn't know any better the US military has a problem on it's hands if this is the kind of officer it is producing. Or at the very least the US Army.
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