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ArchGuy1
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Supreme Court Stikes Down Capacity Limits on Religious Services in New York State

Thu Nov 26, 2020 10:08 pm

The US Supreme Court has struck down mandates issued by New York State limiting capacity for religious services due to COVID-19. This comes after Amy Cooper Barnett was confirmed as a Supreme Court Justice in October. It will be interesting to see how this plays out and if it will lead to huge COVID-19 outbreaks in New York again. Also, I am wondering how Joe Biden will handle this when he becomes President and if he will issue emergency orders to impose capacity restrictions for religious services, among other things nationwide.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.co ... index.html
 
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c933103
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Re: Supreme Court Stikes Down Capacity Limits on Religious Services in New York State

Thu Nov 26, 2020 10:21 pm

The reason why large gathering should be limited, even when everyone wear mask and aren't eating/drinking and aren't interacting closely with other, is the risk of aerosol transmission in crowded space. To properly justify such restriction it would be necessary to first for medical authority and expert in the US to describe such risk and provide guidelines on measures against such method of virus transmission
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ArchGuy1
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Re: Supreme Court Stikes Down Capacity Limits on Religious Services in New York State

Thu Nov 26, 2020 10:42 pm

c933103 wrote:
The reason why large gathering should be limited, even when everyone wear mask and aren't eating/drinking and aren't interacting closely with other, is the risk of aerosol transmission in crowded space. To properly justify such restriction it would be necessary to first for medical authority and expert in the US to describe such risk and provide guidelines on measures against such method of virus transmission

Will this ruling lead to New York State going under a stay at home order by Christmas?
 
Kent350787
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Re: Supreme Court Stikes Down Capacity Limits on Religious Services in New York State

Thu Nov 26, 2020 11:09 pm

c933103 wrote:
The reason why large gathering should be limited, even when everyone wear mask and aren't eating/drinking and aren't interacting closely with other, is the risk of aerosol transmission in crowded space. To properly justify such restriction it would be necessary to first for medical authority and expert in the US to describe such risk and provide guidelines on measures against such method of virus transmission


In my country, quite tight restrictions have been placed on religious gatherings, due to the increased risk of aerosol transmission. As well as attendance limits, we have required social diatancing requirements and reduced singing (initially solosists only, now up to 5, with the possibility of 30 but only outdoors).

Even with these requirements, two of our most recent infection clusters were directly traced to religious gatherings.
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maverick4002
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Re: Supreme Court Stikes Down Capacity Limits on Religious Services in New York State

Fri Nov 27, 2020 2:41 am

The Hasidic Jews continue to flaunt the rules in NYC. In the past week they had two weddings or something with 1000+ people and the mayor and NYPD just stand by and do nothing but are quick to target any other group that has close to a crowded gathering. The Hasids can do whatever they want and face no retribution / get special treatment because they are a huge voting bloc that votes unanimously for the most part.
 
dragon-wings
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Re: Supreme Court Stikes Down Capacity Limits on Religious Services in New York State

Fri Nov 27, 2020 3:32 am

I guess going to church is more important then staying healthy and not dying. :sarcastic:

maverick4002 wrote:
The Hasidic Jews continue to flaunt the rules in NYC. In the past week they had two weddings or something with 1000+ people and the mayor and NYPD just stand by and do nothing but are quick to target any other group that has close to a crowded gathering. The Hasids can do whatever they want and face no retribution / get special treatment because they are a huge voting bloc that votes unanimously for the most part.


And then they wonder why they are targeted when it comes to enforcing the covid rules.
Don't give up don't ever give up - Jim Valvano
 
cskok8
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Re: Supreme Court Stikes Down Capacity Limits on Religious Services in New York State

Fri Nov 27, 2020 4:28 am

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54823860

Yes, everyone should have the freedom to die from Covid 19
 
ltbewr
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Re: Supreme Court Stikes Down Capacity Limits on Religious Services in New York State

Fri Nov 27, 2020 4:31 am

More specifically the SCOTUS gave a temporary suspension of strict levels of attendance at indoor religious events and services, depending on the level of severity of 'hot spots' of infection rates of Covid-19, from 10 to 25 persons or low percentages of capacity for larger spaces issued by Gov. Andrew Cuomo. These standards were much stricter than as to retail stores capacity and access. These restrictions were backed off before the SCOTUS hearings so could have been considered 'moot' as to needing court involvement. NY City and State have levels already been reset to that acceptable to the court in a recent California state case. The petitioners, the Roman Catholic diocese of Brooklyn and 2 ultra-orthodox Jewish temples. Got to love the hypocritical attitude, oppose legal abortion but support killing people by COVID-19. The case was sent back to the lower courts to see how it works out there. The fear will bey other faith groups
 
ArchGuy1
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Re: Supreme Court Stikes Down Capacity Limits on Religious Services in New York State

Fri Nov 27, 2020 5:02 am

ltbewr wrote:
More specifically the SCOTUS gave a temporary suspension of strict levels of attendance at indoor religious events and services, depending on the level of severity of 'hot spots' of infection rates of Covid-19, from 10 to 25 persons or low percentages of capacity for larger spaces issued by Gov. Andrew Cuomo. These standards were much stricter than as to retail stores capacity and access. These restrictions were backed off before the SCOTUS hearings so could have been considered 'moot' as to needing court involvement. NY City and State have levels already been reset to that acceptable to the court in a recent California state case. The petitioners, the Roman Catholic diocese of Brooklyn and 2 ultra-orthodox Jewish temples. Got to love the hypocritical attitude, oppose legal abortion but support killing people by COVID-19. The case was sent back to the lower courts to see how it works out there. The fear will bey other faith groups

How will Joe Biden handle the situation when it comes into office in January?
 
Airstud
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Re: Supreme Court Stikes Down Capacity Limits on Religious Services in New York State

Fri Nov 27, 2020 5:30 am

ArchGuy1 wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
More specifically the SCOTUS gave a temporary suspension of strict levels of attendance at indoor religious events and services, depending on the level of severity of 'hot spots' of infection rates of Covid-19, from 10 to 25 persons or low percentages of capacity for larger spaces issued by Gov. Andrew Cuomo. These standards were much stricter than as to retail stores capacity and access. These restrictions were backed off before the SCOTUS hearings so could have been considered 'moot' as to needing court involvement. NY City and State have levels already been reset to that acceptable to the court in a recent California state case. The petitioners, the Roman Catholic diocese of Brooklyn and 2 ultra-orthodox Jewish temples. Got to love the hypocritical attitude, oppose legal abortion but support killing people by COVID-19. The case was sent back to the lower courts to see how it works out there. The fear will bey other faith groups

How will Joe Biden handle the situation when it comes into office in January?


There's nothing in Roman Catholic Diocese v Cuomo for Biden to "handle." The President can't overrule the Supreme Court.
Pancakes are delicious.
 
ArchGuy1
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Re: Supreme Court Stikes Down Capacity Limits on Religious Services in New York State

Fri Nov 27, 2020 5:51 am

Airstud wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
More specifically the SCOTUS gave a temporary suspension of strict levels of attendance at indoor religious events and services, depending on the level of severity of 'hot spots' of infection rates of Covid-19, from 10 to 25 persons or low percentages of capacity for larger spaces issued by Gov. Andrew Cuomo. These standards were much stricter than as to retail stores capacity and access. These restrictions were backed off before the SCOTUS hearings so could have been considered 'moot' as to needing court involvement. NY City and State have levels already been reset to that acceptable to the court in a recent California state case. The petitioners, the Roman Catholic diocese of Brooklyn and 2 ultra-orthodox Jewish temples. Got to love the hypocritical attitude, oppose legal abortion but support killing people by COVID-19. The case was sent back to the lower courts to see how it works out there. The fear will bey other faith groups

How will Joe Biden handle the situation when it comes into office in January?


There's nothing in Roman Catholic Diocese v Cuomo for Biden to "handle." The President can't overrule the Supreme Court.

Will Biden impose national capacity restrictions for religious services?
 
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seahawk
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Re: Supreme Court Stikes Down Capacity Limits on Religious Services in New York State

Fri Nov 27, 2020 9:30 am

There is no reason to treat them differently to secular businesses.
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: Supreme Court Stikes Down Capacity Limits on Religious Services in New York State

Fri Nov 27, 2020 10:26 am

seahawk wrote:
There is no reason to treat them differently to secular businesses.


They were treated as “non essential businesses” because they are.

Don’t need to attend religious worship place to survive.

Need to go to grocery store to get food to sustain life.

There’s a difference.
 
bennett123
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Re: Supreme Court Stikes Down Capacity Limits on Religious Services in New York State

Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:02 am

So are you saying that only grocery stores are essential.

What about stores that sell groceries and other stuff?.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Supreme Court Stikes Down Capacity Limits on Religious Services in New York State

Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:42 am

ArchGuy1 wrote:
Airstud wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
How will Joe Biden handle the situation when it comes into office in January?


There's nothing in Roman Catholic Diocese v Cuomo for Biden to "handle." The President can't overrule the Supreme Court.

Will Biden impose national capacity restrictions for religious services?


It is unlikely there is anything in federal law that permits doing so.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
tommy1808
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Re: Supreme Court Stikes Down Capacity Limits on Religious Services in New York State

Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:47 am

bennett123 wrote:
So are you saying that only grocery stores are essential.

What about stores that sell groceries and other stuff?.


Nope, just that no person has ever died from not going to Church, unless Churchgoers torched him for not going that is, ever.

And at this time people do die from going to Church.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
tommy1808
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Re: Supreme Court Stikes Down Capacity Limits on Religious Services in New York State

Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:48 am

Aaron747 wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
Airstud wrote:

There's nothing in Roman Catholic Diocese v Cuomo for Biden to "handle." The President can't overrule the Supreme Court.

Will Biden impose national capacity restrictions for religious services?


It is unlikely there is anything in federal law that permits doing so.


Article II says he can do what ever he wants ....

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Supreme Court Stikes Down Capacity Limits on Religious Services in New York State

Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:52 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
Will Biden impose national capacity restrictions for religious services?


It is unlikely there is anything in federal law that permits doing so.


Article II says he can do what ever he wants ....

best regards
Thomas


Wrong guy for that :lol: This one is actually familiar with the CFRs and Constitution ;)
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
WIederling
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Re: Supreme Court Stikes Down Capacity Limits on Religious Services in New York State

Fri Nov 27, 2020 12:41 pm

cskok8 wrote:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54823860

Yes, everyone should have the freedom to die from Covid 19


for those that seem to yearn for an infection: evolution in action. <check> OK
But only if there were no further transmitted infections.

There really exists no right to decide for others.
Murphy is an optimist
 
ltbewr
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Re: Supreme Court Stikes Down Capacity Limits on Religious Services in New York State

Fri Nov 27, 2020 1:46 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
Will Biden impose national capacity restrictions for religious services?

It is unlikely there is anything in federal law that permits doing so.

Article II says he can do what ever he wants ....
best regards
Thomas

Biden when President as to Covid-19 may not be able to limit how many can attend a religious service (and he shouldn't legally or politically) but he can order mask use, social distancing, occupancy limits and other public health policies as to Federal properties and buildings as well as on interstate transit (bus, train, airplane). Such mandates and orders would send a message and set standards for public health orders by states and local governments that have not been done in the Trump administration.
 
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c933103
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Re: Supreme Court Stikes Down Capacity Limits on Religious Services in New York State

Fri Nov 27, 2020 3:00 pm

meecrob wrote:
c933103 wrote:
The reason why large gathering should be limited, even when everyone wear mask and aren't eating/drinking and aren't interacting closely with other, is the risk of aerosol transmission in crowded space. To properly justify such restriction it would be necessary to first for medical authority and expert in the US to describe such risk and provide guidelines on measures against such method of virus transmission


Any doctor worth listening to will tell you to wear a mask and stay away from people. Going to a holy building and cramming yourself in with many other people is objectively fucking retarded. Do you need a medical authority to tell you that hanging out with people who have the common cold will likely lead to you getting the common cold?

Edited to add, this is not a dig against religion, it just strikes me as a repeat of the Lisbon Earthquake of 1755.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1755_Lisbon_earthquake

God cannot help you even within the walls of a church when mother nature is upset.

Yes, wear mask and stay away from people help prevent the disease, but if only droplet transmission is of concern then a distance of 2 meters should have already be sufficient. The only problem is that now it is not sufficient. The reason of it being, aerosol transmission enabling viral particles exhaled by patients in the form of aerosol to stay afloat in the air for longer period of time and reaching beyond 2 meters away from patient's location.
It might be intuitive to take the same preventive measure but neither science nor justuce system were based on intuitive.
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ArchGuy1
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Re: Supreme Court Stikes Down Capacity Limits on Religious Services in New York State

Fri Nov 27, 2020 4:12 pm

c933103 wrote:
meecrob wrote:
c933103 wrote:
The reason why large gathering should be limited, even when everyone wear mask and aren't eating/drinking and aren't interacting closely with other, is the risk of aerosol transmission in crowded space. To properly justify such restriction it would be necessary to first for medical authority and expert in the US to describe such risk and provide guidelines on measures against such method of virus transmission


Any doctor worth listening to will tell you to wear a mask and stay away from people. Going to a holy building and cramming yourself in with many other people is objectively fucking retarded. Do you need a medical authority to tell you that hanging out with people who have the common cold will likely lead to you getting the common cold?

Edited to add, this is not a dig against religion, it just strikes me as a repeat of the Lisbon Earthquake of 1755.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1755_Lisbon_earthquake

God cannot help you even within the walls of a church when mother nature is upset.

Yes, wear mask and stay away from people help prevent the disease, but if only droplet transmission is of concern then a distance of 2 meters should have already be sufficient. The only problem is that now it is not sufficient. The reason of it being, aerosol transmission enabling viral particles exhaled by patients in the form of aerosol to stay afloat in the air for longer period of time and reaching beyond 2 meters away from patient's location.
It might be intuitive to take the same preventive measure but neither science nor justuce system were based on intuitive.

Will everything be shutting down again soon because of this?
 
DLFREEBIRD
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Re: Supreme Court Stikes Down Capacity Limits on Religious Services in New York State

Fri Nov 27, 2020 5:34 pm

dragon-wings wrote:
I guess going to church is more important then staying healthy and not dying. :sarcastic:

maverick4002 wrote:
The Hasidic Jews continue to flaunt the rules in NYC. In the past week they had two weddings or something with 1000+ people and the mayor and NYPD just stand by and do nothing but are quick to target any other group that has close to a crowded gathering. The Hasids can do whatever they want and face no retribution / get special treatment because they are a huge voting bloc that votes unanimously for the most part.


And then they wonder why they are targeted when it comes to enforcing the covid rules.


I guess people still going to church including justice Amy Cohen Barrett thinking that god will magically protect them or maybe
they think if they die they will just go to a better place. It's hard to understand their logic or for that matter the supreme court lack of logic.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Supreme Court Stikes Down Capacity Limits on Religious Services in New York State

Fri Nov 27, 2020 5:41 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
Will Biden impose national capacity restrictions for religious services?


It is unlikely there is anything in federal law that permits doing so.


Article II says he can do what ever he wants ....

best regards
Thomas


The only power the President has is to enforce laws passed by Congress that are constitutional, period.
 
DLFREEBIRD
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Re: Supreme Court Stikes Down Capacity Limits on Religious Services in New York State

Fri Nov 27, 2020 5:45 pm

maverick4002 wrote:
The Hasidic Jews continue to flaunt the rules in NYC. In the past week they had two weddings or something with 1000+ people and the mayor and NYPD just stand by and do nothing but are quick to target any other group that has close to a crowded gathering. The Hasids can do whatever they want and face no retribution / get special treatment because they are a huge voting bloc that votes unanimously for the most part.


It was a secret wedding, Authorities didn't know it was going to take place. They were fined monetary fee. How is that not doing nothing? What do you want the authorities to do? go undercover in this community to stop their secret weddings? Your very disingenuous And where is your link? that the Hasidic community can do whatever they want and face no retribution for being a huge voting bloc? Here is my link, calling you out on whatever your post was ? a baseless conspiracy theory? or I have a big chip on my shoulder and want to make things up, like my one term president.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/24/nyre ... masks.html
 
ArchGuy1
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Re: Supreme Court Stikes Down Capacity Limits on Religious Services in New York State

Fri Nov 27, 2020 5:56 pm

ltbewr wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
It is unlikely there is anything in federal law that permits doing so.

Article II says he can do what ever he wants ....
best regards
Thomas

Biden when President as to Covid-19 may not be able to limit how many can attend a religious service (and he shouldn't legally or politically) but he can order mask use, social distancing, occupancy limits and other public health policies as to Federal properties and buildings as well as on interstate transit (bus, train, airplane). Such mandates and orders would send a message and set standards for public health orders by states and local governments that have not been done in the Trump administration.

Will power to allow for reduced capacity at religious services be given back to the states once Biden gets into office?
 
ArchGuy1
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Re: Supreme Court Stikes Down Capacity Limits on Religious Services in New York State

Fri Nov 27, 2020 5:56 pm

ltbewr wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
It is unlikely there is anything in federal law that permits doing so.

Article II says he can do what ever he wants ....
best regards
Thomas

Biden when President as to Covid-19 may not be able to limit how many can attend a religious service (and he shouldn't legally or politically) but he can order mask use, social distancing, occupancy limits and other public health policies as to Federal properties and buildings as well as on interstate transit (bus, train, airplane). Such mandates and orders would send a message and set standards for public health orders by states and local governments that have not been done in the Trump administration.

Will power to allow for reduced capacity at religious services be given back to the states once Biden gets into office?
 
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seb146
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Re: Supreme Court Stikes Down Capacity Limits on Religious Services in New York State

Fri Nov 27, 2020 7:03 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

It is unlikely there is anything in federal law that permits doing so.


Article II says he can do what ever he wants ....

best regards
Thomas


The only power the President has is to enforce laws passed by Congress that are constitutional, period.


And that could be interpreted a number of ways. Like "my religion is more important than your health" or "my language is more important" or the "Muslim ban" or keeping kids in cages. And then we get into the whole can of worms about laws that are constitutional but are still not enforced or even being overturned even after being upheld by SCOTUS. Marriage equality, voting, and abortion come right to mind.

But, if people want to get sick, put on ventilators with no physical contact and eventually die without saying goodbye to their loved ones, who are we to stop them? As long as their families pay 100% out of pocket for their care and carelessness, why stop them?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Supreme Court Stikes Down Capacity Limits on Religious Services in New York State

Fri Nov 27, 2020 7:34 pm

seahawk wrote:
There is no reason to treat them differently to secular businesses.


I would imagine that legally, the government has a lot more ability to regulate business than it does religious practices.

A lot of these COVID restrictions are more of a courtesy, or "honor system" than a real legal framework. The government can't really prevent you from breathing air outside, for example. Wouldn't hold up in court. IMO.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Supreme Court Stikes Down Capacity Limits on Religious Services in New York State

Fri Nov 27, 2020 8:01 pm

As always, ha, the NORKs are showing us the way—execute the COVID-denying offenders. Maybe we could execute Newsom.

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronaviru ... telligence
 
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Thunderboltdrgn
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Re: Supreme Court Stikes Down Capacity Limits on Religious Services in New York State

Fri Nov 27, 2020 8:21 pm

seb146 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

Article II says he can do what ever he wants ....

best regards
Thomas


The only power the President has is to enforce laws passed by Congress that are constitutional, period.


And that could be interpreted a number of ways. Like "my religion is more important than your health" or "my language is more important" or the "Muslim ban" or keeping kids in cages. And then we get into the whole can of worms about laws that are constitutional but are still not enforced or even being overturned even after being upheld by SCOTUS. Marriage equality, voting, and abortion come right to mind.

But, if people want to get sick, put on ventilators with no physical contact and eventually die without saying goodbye to their loved ones, who are we to stop them? As long as their families pay 100% out of pocket for their care and carelessness, why stop them?


1. To prevent health care workers from physical and mental stress from having to deal with a never ending stream of covid-patients.
2. A large influx of Covid-infected patients means a huge strain on health care in general.
3. Beds in wards that would used for heart patients, geriatric patients and etc Regular/planned health care and surgeries are cancelled/postponed.

It will never just affect those getting infected because it affects the entire society.
Like a thunderbolt of lightning the Dragon roars across the sky. Il Drago Ruggente
 
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casinterest
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Re: Supreme Court Stikes Down Capacity Limits on Religious Services in New York State

Fri Nov 27, 2020 9:13 pm

This was a troubling decision by the Supreme Court. The case should have been rejected as the plaintiffs were no longer subjected to the orders which had been issued to save lives. Cuomo had already changed the orders. Sure there is freedom of speech and religion issue, but i do hope the court exercises every amount of this freedom of speech that they have found when they go to examine rights to privacy and to self health when marriage and abortion show up on the docket.

The lack of intelligence in the Majority opinions is troubling and spells an unbalanced court going forward.

Gyms, Churches, auditoriums, theatres and conference halls all belong in the same class when making rules, and they should be separate from grab and go stores as more people are put into close contact for longer periods of time in such situations. To see Gorsuch twist with comparisons to a bicycle shop makes me wonder if they pulled him from the fry line instead of a courtroom.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
apodino
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Re: Supreme Court Stikes Down Capacity Limits on Religious Services in New York State

Sat Nov 28, 2020 12:09 am

The supreme court once again did its job and gave the legally correct ruling. Sotamayor's dissent is troubling in this case, and sounded very political. Sotamayor in her dissent basically said that whatever the scientists and the experts say should trump (No pun intended) what the law actually says. The constitution clearly says that you cannot make laws that prohibit the exercise of religion, but yet Cuomo's executive order does just that, as do similar orders in a number of states. I didn't see anything that Sotamayor wrote in the dissent that remotely tried to make a legal argument here. I would not have a problem with dissents if there was legal rationale behind it, as there was with the Robert's dissent. But you saw none of that from Sotamayor, and I have a big issue with that.


That being said, people need to be smart about this whole thing too. I have not been going to church during this pandemic for the very reasons that Cuomo gave this executive order. I think most people, even the most religious are in the same boat as I am. That being said, if the Court allows the government to use the pandemic as an excuse to place these restrictions on religion, what else will the court allow the government to use as an excuse for the same reason. It's pandora's box. And if you start at Christians and Jews, what is there to prevent this happening to Muslims down the road? Yes I think Muslims should have the same right to gather and worship as any other religion.
 
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ER757
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Re: Supreme Court Stikes Down Capacity Limits on Religious Services in New York State

Sat Nov 28, 2020 12:32 am

apodino wrote:
The supreme court once again did its job and gave the legally correct ruling. Sotamayor's dissent is troubling in this case, and sounded very political. Sotamayor in her dissent basically said that whatever the scientists and the experts say should trump (No pun intended) what the law actually says. The constitution clearly says that you cannot make laws that prohibit the exercise of religion, but yet Cuomo's executive order does just that, as do similar orders in a number of states. I didn't see anything that Sotamayor wrote in the dissent that remotely tried to make a legal argument here. I would not have a problem with dissents if there was legal rationale behind it, as there was with the Robert's dissent. But you saw none of that from Sotamayor, and I have a big issue with that.


That being said, people need to be smart about this whole thing too. I have not been going to church during this pandemic for the very reasons that Cuomo gave this executive order. I think most people, even the most religious are in the same boat as I am. That being said, if the Court allows the government to use the pandemic as an excuse to place these restrictions on religion, what else will the court allow the government to use as an excuse for the same reason. It's pandora's box. And if you start at Christians and Jews, what is there to prevent this happening to Muslims down the road? Yes I think Muslims should have the same right to gather and worship as any other religion.

I hear what you're saying, but your right to practice a religion doesn't necessarily mean you have to go to a building with a bunch of other people to do it, especially with the technology available today. On-line services can be held through various platforms. There are even some churches that did services in a drive-in movie style where everyone stays in their cars and tunes to a specific radio station
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Supreme Court Stikes Down Capacity Limits on Religious Services in New York State

Sat Nov 28, 2020 12:37 am

apodino wrote:
The constitution clearly says that you cannot make laws that prohibit the exercise of religion, but yet Cuomo's executive order does just that, as do similar orders in a number of states.

Nothing has stopped these people from exercising their faith; merely congregating in an enclosed space, as it happened to gatherings, religious or not. If your deity only allows you to worship them from inside a building, I'd be concerned about having a deity that's so demanding, especially during a pandemic that they either have the ability to stop but haven't done so, or don't have the ability, period. Many churches adapted to the situation and enacted virtual services; if you feel you can't worship virtually, then the problem isn't the restrictions but rather that you have a Karenesque attitude and want to push the limits simply because you can.

This is simply one more excuse rile people up and claim themselves as victims...for some reason.

apodino wrote:
That being said, people need to be smart about this whole thing too. I have not been going to church during this pandemic for the very reasons that Cuomo gave this executive order. I think most people, even the most religious are in the same boat as I am.
Again, if you believe you will be sent to hell for worshipping in a remote setting, then your religion is the problem and not the restrictions. A deity that DEMANDS worshipping in a public setting seems to be a deity with an narcissistic personality and, IMO, not worthy of worship, especially when I have to put myself in harm's way.

apodino wrote:
That being said, if the Court allows the government to use the pandemic as an excuse to place these restrictions on religion, what else will the court allow the government to use as an excuse for the same reason. It's pandora's box. And if you start at Christians and Jews, what is there to prevent this happening to Muslims down the road? Yes I think Muslims should have the same right to gather and worship as any other religion.

Pray tell, why would the government tell you you can't go to church? What essential service do houses of worship offer that they require dozens to hundreds of people gathered? What are you getting in person that you can't get remotely? What kind of activity requires you to be physically present that can't be done remotely? Setting aside weddings (and that can be made socially distanced so long as the couple, the officiant, and their main witnesses are present), baptisms (and that can be symbolically rather than the usual water drizzle), and last rites, what other religious rites require to be in front of an entire congregation?

It's actually quite interesting that Muslims, who are sometimes seen as more strict in their beliefs were able to adapt and tell people to pray at home or in a virtual setting, and to take it easy during Ramadan...but if Karen and Chad can't go to church to show off every Sunday, it's oppression.
Last edited by einsteinboricua on Sat Nov 28, 2020 12:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Supreme Court Stikes Down Capacity Limits on Religious Services in New York State

Sat Nov 28, 2020 12:38 am

ER757 wrote:
There are even some churches that did services in a drive-in movie style where everyone stays in their cars and tunes to a specific radio station

:checkmark: :checkmark: A church close to my place did that, and they had two services to accommodate as many as they could.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
apodino
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Re: Supreme Court Stikes Down Capacity Limits on Religious Services in New York State

Sat Nov 28, 2020 12:57 am

ER757 wrote:
apodino wrote:
The supreme court once again did its job and gave the legally correct ruling. Sotamayor's dissent is troubling in this case, and sounded very political. Sotamayor in her dissent basically said that whatever the scientists and the experts say should trump (No pun intended) what the law actually says. The constitution clearly says that you cannot make laws that prohibit the exercise of religion, but yet Cuomo's executive order does just that, as do similar orders in a number of states. I didn't see anything that Sotamayor wrote in the dissent that remotely tried to make a legal argument here. I would not have a problem with dissents if there was legal rationale behind it, as there was with the Robert's dissent. But you saw none of that from Sotamayor, and I have a big issue with that.


That being said, people need to be smart about this whole thing too. I have not been going to church during this pandemic for the very reasons that Cuomo gave this executive order. I think most people, even the most religious are in the same boat as I am. That being said, if the Court allows the government to use the pandemic as an excuse to place these restrictions on religion, what else will the court allow the government to use as an excuse for the same reason. It's pandora's box. And if you start at Christians and Jews, what is there to prevent this happening to Muslims down the road? Yes I think Muslims should have the same right to gather and worship as any other religion.

I hear what you're saying, but your right to practice a religion doesn't necessarily mean you have to go to a building with a bunch of other people to do it, especially with the technology available today. On-line services can be held through various platforms. There are even some churches that did services in a drive-in movie style where everyone stays in their cars and tunes to a specific radio station


In response to this and also addressing Einstein, the biggest issue as far as the Catholic Church goes is communion. Naturally, with communion, the hosts are consecrated at mass and distributed at the same mass. I don't see how you distribute communion virtually since it actually requires the physical host, which Catholics believe is the Body of Jesus Christ. I would agree that you can do a lot virtually, but Communion is just not something that can be done, and I do believe that since the first amendment requires freedom of religion, that every Catholic has the right to receive communion. And I don't know how this can happen with restrictions in place on gathering. (Disclaimer, I am a catholic who has chosen not to go and receive due to the covid pandemic)

My comment was on the legal part of this though, and as I stated, health experts and science experts should be listened to and taken seriously. But their recommendations do not constitute legally binding regulations, nor do they take priority over the constitution. And that is what I was saying, because Sotamayor made it sound like in her dissent that they do, and I have a big problem with that.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Supreme Court Stikes Down Capacity Limits on Religious Services in New York State

Sat Nov 28, 2020 1:40 am

apodino wrote:
In response to this and also addressing Einstein, the biggest issue as far as the Catholic Church goes is communion. Naturally, with communion, the hosts are consecrated at mass and distributed at the same mass. I don't see how you distribute communion virtually since it actually requires the physical host, which Catholics believe is the Body of Jesus Christ. I would agree that you can do a lot virtually, but Communion is just not something that can be done, and I do believe that since the first amendment requires freedom of religion, that every Catholic has the right to receive communion. And I don't know how this can happen with restrictions in place on gathering. (Disclaimer, I am a catholic who has chosen not to go and receive due to the covid pandemic).

Again...what's stopping people from getting a few communion wafers from their church and attending mass virtually? Having gone to Catholic school K-12, I think many priests would have been happy to give out a few wafers and bless them virtually. In all the masses I attended (both in school and outside), I never saw anyone drinking wine, but even then I would think the Church would find grape juice as an acceptable substitute, blessed remotely.

If you can send a prayer remotely, then surely having a wafer and grape juice being ceremoniously turned to flesh and blood through remote means should still be acceptable as a communion. The Pope even suggested a "spiritual communion" until then (and I'm sure more liberal priests would allow people to bring their own bread and "wine" as a substitute in the meantime...if God will be angry with this, then time to look for another god).
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
tommy1808
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Re: Supreme Court Stikes Down Capacity Limits on Religious Services in New York State

Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:19 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

It is unlikely there is anything in federal law that permits doing so.


Article II says he can do what ever he wants ....

best regards
Thomas


The only power the President has is to enforce laws passed by Congress that are constitutional, period.


Did you post the same when Trump figured he can do whatever he wants?

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Virtual737
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Re: Supreme Court Stikes Down Capacity Limits on Religious Services in New York State

Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:27 am

The Pope would have done the Roman Catholic church a huge favour by himself declaring that all church services, where practicable, should be held virtually (or whatever else would absolutely restrict any spread).

Not only would there be less religious folk being infected, which directly leads to less religious folk dying, but others might see that the church, and religion as a whole, is actually there for the greater good and join the faith, rather than seeing it as the greatest ever scam.
 
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c933103
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Re: Supreme Court Stikes Down Capacity Limits on Religious Services in New York State

Sat Nov 28, 2020 9:38 am

Virtual737 wrote:
The Pope would have done the Roman Catholic church a huge favour by himself declaring that all church services, where practicable, should be held virtually (or whatever else would absolutely restrict any spread).

Not only would there be less religious folk being infected, which directly leads to less religious folk dying, but others might see that the church, and religion as a whole, is actually there for the greater good and join the faith, rather than seeing it as the greatest ever scam.

There are places in eartg that aren't badly hit by the pandemic thus universal declaration isn't appropriate fpr those
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Virtual737
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Re: Supreme Court Stikes Down Capacity Limits on Religious Services in New York State

Sat Nov 28, 2020 11:37 am

c933103 wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:
The Pope would have done the Roman Catholic church a huge favour by himself declaring that all church services, where practicable, should be held virtually (or whatever else would absolutely restrict any spread).

Not only would there be less religious folk being infected, which directly leads to less religious folk dying, but others might see that the church, and religion as a whole, is actually there for the greater good and join the faith, rather than seeing it as the greatest ever scam.

There are places in eartg that aren't badly hit by the pandemic thus universal declaration isn't appropriate fpr those


Then he could have made such declaration for the US, Brazil and whatever other territories have both an issue and a sizeable RC presence. The Supreme Court had already given him an "in" for the US.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Supreme Court Stikes Down Capacity Limits on Religious Services in New York State

Sat Nov 28, 2020 12:21 pm

The big fear from this decision is the SCOTUS in the near future overturning Roe v. Wade as to abortion, allowing states to choose to make abortion illegal including women facing murder or related charges if get one illegally or if travel to another state and return to their home state and face criminal charges. There is also the fear of overturning or strictly limiting in favor on religious 'rights' a number of personal and privacy rights and protections under laws. Limiting or overturning sexual assault civil cases against religious organizations, most notably the Roman Catholic Church. Allow pharmacists, Catholic and other religious hospitals to not fill prescriptions for birth control or 'plan B' abortion pills on religious or personal moral grounds. Reversing some states laws on doctor assisted end of life procedures. Reverse same sex civil marriage laws and GLTBQ civil rights. Force the Federal and State governments give taxpayer monies to support religious schools, to ignore building and zoning codes, expand tax exemptions, make it impossible to assure faith group funds are not being misspent.

For many this is why they support Trump and Republicans, to have a Judiciary including the SCOTUS that totally support faith beliefs over Government, 'states rights' over the Federal government, to selectively have the SCOTUS support or deny laws, to rule in favor of religious beliefs even if affect negatively a majority of people.or against the Constitution's stand of not establishing an official religion.
 
MaverickM11
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Re: Supreme Court Stikes Down Capacity Limits on Religious Services in New York State

Sat Nov 28, 2020 1:33 pm

DLFREEBIRD wrote:
dragon-wings wrote:
I guess going to church is more important then staying healthy and not dying. :sarcastic:

maverick4002 wrote:
The Hasidic Jews continue to flaunt the rules in NYC. In the past week they had two weddings or something with 1000+ people and the mayor and NYPD just stand by and do nothing but are quick to target any other group that has close to a crowded gathering. The Hasids can do whatever they want and face no retribution / get special treatment because they are a huge voting bloc that votes unanimously for the most part.


And then they wonder why they are targeted when it comes to enforcing the covid rules.


I guess people still going to church including justice Amy Cohen Barrett thinking that god will magically protect them or maybe
they think if they die they will just go to a better place. It's hard to understand their logic or for that matter the supreme court lack of logic.

Fitting that Amy Covid Barrett’s conformation was a super spreader event.
I don't take responsibility at all
 
PPVRA
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Re: Supreme Court Stikes Down Capacity Limits on Religious Services in New York State

Sat Nov 28, 2020 2:27 pm

sierrakilo44 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
There is no reason to treat them differently to secular businesses.


They were treated as “non essential businesses” because they are.

Don’t need to attend religious worship place to survive.

Need to go to grocery store to get food to sustain life.

There’s a difference.


They were treated more strictly than non-essential businesses.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
PPVRA
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Re: Supreme Court Stikes Down Capacity Limits on Religious Services in New York State

Sat Nov 28, 2020 3:10 pm

“The dis- parate treatment is even more striking in an orange zone. While attendance at houses of worship is limited to 25 per- sons, even non-essential businesses may decide for them- selves how many persons to admit.“

https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/2 ... 7_4g15.pdf


There’s a reason Cuomo decided to change the regulation rather than fight for it. It’s just poor rule making, whether discrimination was part of it or not.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
Virtual737
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Re: Supreme Court Stikes Down Capacity Limits on Religious Services in New York State

Sat Nov 28, 2020 4:05 pm

One might have hoped that common sense would prevail. The science behind the spread of the disease and it's capacity for both death and a tremendous drain on overstretched emergency services is hard to argue against.

The most effective way to stop the disease in its tracks (pre vaccine) is to restrict congregation, but the Federal government can't do it because it needs to be done at State level, religion wont do it while they perceive they are being discriminated against, Republicans wont do it because Trump has told them its a hoax and many other Americans (they are not alone here) wont do it because they are too far up their own arses to accept being told to do anything by anyone.

You literally can't make this stuff up. At no point is education, wisdom or any form of intelligence winning this battle.
 
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c933103
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Re: Supreme Court Stikes Down Capacity Limits on Religious Services in New York State

Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:06 pm

Virtual737 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:
The Pope would have done the Roman Catholic church a huge favour by himself declaring that all church services, where practicable, should be held virtually (or whatever else would absolutely restrict any spread).

Not only would there be less religious folk being infected, which directly leads to less religious folk dying, but others might see that the church, and religion as a whole, is actually there for the greater good and join the faith, rather than seeing it as the greatest ever scam.

There are places in eartg that aren't badly hit by the pandemic thus universal declaration isn't appropriate fpr those


Then he could have made such declaration for the US, Brazil and whatever other territories have both an issue and a sizeable RC presence. The Supreme Court had already given him an "in" for the US.

That seems too politics for the Holy See to name specific countries when they won't even condemn various infringement of religious roght in countries like China
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate. 求同存異. よく見て・よく聞いて・よく考える
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PPVRA
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Re: Supreme Court Stikes Down Capacity Limits on Religious Services in New York State

Sat Nov 28, 2020 6:30 pm

Virtual737 wrote:
One might have hoped that common sense would prevail. The science behind the spread of the disease and it's capacity for both death and a tremendous drain on overstretched emergency services is hard to argue against.

The most effective way to stop the disease in its tracks (pre vaccine) is to restrict congregation, but the Federal government can't do it because it needs to be done at State level, religion wont do it while they perceive they are being discriminated against, Republicans wont do it because Trump has told them its a hoax and many other Americans (they are not alone here) wont do it because they are too far up their own arses to accept being told to do anything by anyone.

You literally can't make this stuff up. At no point is education, wisdom or any form of intelligence winning this battle.


You should try reading the opinion. Almost everything you posted is false.

Edit: the majority’s opinion is only 6 pages. The whole opinion probably would fit in 2 pages.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
SL1200MK2
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Re: Supreme Court Stikes Down Capacity Limits on Religious Services in New York State

Sat Nov 28, 2020 6:50 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
As always, ha, the NORKs are showing us the way—execute the COVID-denying offenders. Maybe we could execute Newsom.

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronaviru ... telligence


Im confused here. I read the article, which is about the execution of a North Korean official for breaking a Covid rule. Then you mention executing, who I presume you mean, the governor of California. Newsom is not a Covid denier, yet you suggest executing him. I'm just not making the connection of why you think executing Gavin Newsom is a good idea and how it connects with North Korea.

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