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Max Q
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Should China pay reparations for the economic damage from the virus ?

Tue Dec 01, 2020 3:04 pm

I haven’t decided myself whether this is appropriate, while I don’t believe COVID was created ‘in a lab’ it does appear the Chinese government went out of their way to hide the extent of the problem, that and other actions or the lack of them contributed to the worldwide spread of the virus


While they looked out for their own population with extreme measures they showed little concern for the rest of the world


Sadly, none of the dead can be brought back but trillions of dollars in damage has been done to the world economy


Is China responsible and should they pay now ?
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: Should China pay reparations for the economic damage from the virus ?

Tue Dec 01, 2020 3:45 pm

China won't pay a penny and will take great offence if any country asks them to pay
Interesting topic as a theoretical question, but extremely unlikely to go anywhere beyond debating societies
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Should China pay reparations for the economic damage from the virus ?

Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:30 pm

Why should they pay? The people who are getting it now are getting it mainly due to there own stupidity. Thanksgiving weekend is a prime example of how ignorant people can be.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Should China pay reparations for the economic damage from the virus ?

Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:38 pm

It’s one small example, but not the only reason, why regime change in China is an important goal.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Should China pay reparations for the economic damage from the virus ?

Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:49 pm

As much as many in the USA, Europe want to seek blood revenge against China's government for their handling of the Covid-19 pandemic to do so would likely just make relations with them even worse. Let us also not forget that China did capture the DNA of the virus and provided it quite early to the rest of the world, helping with trying to contain it and develop vaccines.
 
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c933103
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Re: Should China pay reparations for the economic damage from the virus ?

Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:52 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Why should they pay? The people who are getting it now are getting it mainly due to there own stupidity. Thanksgiving weekend is a prime example of how ignorant people can be.

Main reason behind many of people downplaying the virus are becauss of their mistakened understanding on threat of the virus.
Yes, you can say stupidity is the cause of such underestimation, but stupidity in itself wouldn't cause such made up misunderstanding
Many of those misunderstanding in Western society nowadays are caused by mistakened data from China early in the pandemic, and how Western government/expert/media reacted to those data by taking them at face value, although many of those have been corrected, but the impression still remain in the mind of public, especially among those that have lower intellect, and is still affecting their actions nowadays.
----
And no, even if you do all the preventive measure, you cannot be 100% sure the virus wouldn't hit you, not to mention many in their jobs or other position are bearing the risk of potential infection to complete their role in the society, imo it's wrong to.blame these victims to the virus.
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate. 求同存異. よく見て・よく聞いて・よく考える
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marcelh
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Re: Should China pay reparations for the economic damage from the virus ?

Tue Dec 01, 2020 5:29 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
It’s one small example, but not the only reason, why regime change in China is an important goal.

An important goal of the US for their own benefit. “Truth” and “US government” doesn’t match well....
 
tommy1808
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Re: Should China pay reparations for the economic damage from the virus ?

Tue Dec 01, 2020 5:41 pm

marcelh wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
It’s one small example, but not the only reason, why regime change in China is an important goal.

An important goal of the US for their own benefit. “Truth” and “US government” doesn’t match well....


Chinese democracy would be fairly nice....

Mid and long term they will pay economically anyways, the trend out of China was strong before Corona, this will just accelerate the move to cheaper or more reliable supplier nations.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Reinhardt
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Re: Should China pay reparations for the economic damage from the virus ?

Tue Dec 01, 2020 5:50 pm

marcelh wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
It’s one small example, but not the only reason, why regime change in China is an important goal.

An important goal of the US for their own benefit. “Truth” and “US government” doesn’t match well....


For sure no action taken by an external party will influence the current current China govenment setup, they will do as they please. That would only come from within China and that just isn't going to happen. Unless there is a massive change in circumstances or global event.

There are however several entirely reprehensable actions the Chinese govenment are taking right now that are completely unacceptable (not just to the US but to the world), that does need co-ordination to try and stop/ resolve. E.g:

Militarisation of the South China Sea
Sheer size of their fishing fleets, often ignoring local waters (see Galapagos Islands)
Effective ethnic cleansing of the Uyghurs
Carbon emissions (despite the fact they are a leader in renewables and electic cars, there level of coal powered stations is unacceptable).
Taiwan

And to be incredibly weary of:

The sheer size of investment in infrastructure / winning of construction projects across the entire continent of Africa and the middle east. With this comes power and influence. Which will make solving the above things more and more difficult.

Long term thinking - everything they do is thinking long term. European and US politics is all short term.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Should China pay reparations for the economic damage from the virus ?

Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:16 pm

Max Q wrote:
I haven’t decided myself whether this is appropriate, while I don’t believe COVID was created ‘in a lab’ it does appear the Chinese government went out of their way to hide the extent of the problem,

Ask yourself this one question first.

Would any other country have handled it differently?

And then try and make a distinction between countries that might have owned up to the problem, but only because the [free] press made it impossible to do otherwise.

My own memories of March and April this year were country after country saying "it's really not that bad here; you should be more worried by that country over there"
Denial was rampant.

For the Chinese it was simple pride. And business.

For anywhere that is a democracy, owning up that your own country was a virus hot spot was tantamount to political suicide. Back then, everybody was "hiding the extent of the problem".
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
Max Q
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Re: Should China pay reparations for the economic damage from the virus ?

Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:27 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
Max Q wrote:
I haven’t decided myself whether this is appropriate, while I don’t believe COVID was created ‘in a lab’ it does appear the Chinese government went out of their way to hide the extent of the problem,

Ask yourself this one question first.

Would any other country have handled it differently?

And then try and make a distinction between countries that might have owned up to the problem, but only because the [free] press made it impossible to do otherwise.

My own memories of March and April this year were country after country saying "it's really not that bad here; you should be more worried by that country over there"
Denial was rampant.

For the Chinese it was simple pride. And business.

For anywhere that is a democracy, owning up that your own country was a virus hot spot was tantamount to political suicide. Back then, everybody was "hiding the extent of the problem".




Good points SD


I do believe some countries would have handled it differently, however those same countries probably wouldn’t have had the same set of circumstances that led to the virus in the first place



There was and still is plenty of denial and this has become a bizarre source of political division


What’s interesting is how the worst impacts of COVID have almost always been felt in the countries with far right governments (US being the prime example) and the more liberal countries have dealt far better with it
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
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casinterest
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Re: Should China pay reparations for the economic damage from the virus ?

Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:32 pm

Here is the issue.
We still don't know all the details of where it came from

Per the Who:
https://www.who.int/news/item/29-06-2020-covidtimeline


31 Dec 2019
WHO’s Country Office in the People’s Republic of China picked up a media statement by the Wuhan Municipal Health Commission from their website on cases of ‘viral pneumonia’ in Wuhan, People’s Republic of China.

The Country Office notified the International Health Regulations (IHR) focal point in the WHO Western Pacific Regional Office about the Wuhan Municipal Health Commission media statement of the cases and provided a translation of it.

WHO’s Epidemic Intelligence from Open Sources (EIOS) platform also picked up a media report on ProMED (a programme of the International Society for Infectious Diseases) about the same cluster of cases of “pneumonia of unknown cause”, in Wuhan.

Several health authorities from around the world contacted WHO seeking additional information.


https://www.npr.org/sections/coronaviru ... study-says

Today we find out that US blood donors had it in their system in Dec of 2019 as well.

Researchers came to this conclusion after the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention analyzed blood donations collected by the American Red Cross from residents in nine states. They found evidence of coronavirus antibodies in 106 out of 7,389 blood donations. The CDC analyzed the blood collected between Dec. 13 and Jan. 17.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Should China pay reparations for the economic damage from the virus ?

Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:44 pm

casinterest wrote:
Here is the issue.
We still don't know all the details of where it came from

Per the Who:
https://www.who.int/news/item/29-06-2020-covidtimeline


31 Dec 2019
WHO’s Country Office in the People’s Republic of China picked up a media statement by the Wuhan Municipal Health Commission from their website on cases of ‘viral pneumonia’ in Wuhan, People’s Republic of China.

The Country Office notified the International Health Regulations (IHR) focal point in the WHO Western Pacific Regional Office about the Wuhan Municipal Health Commission media statement of the cases and provided a translation of it.

WHO’s Epidemic Intelligence from Open Sources (EIOS) platform also picked up a media report on ProMED (a programme of the International Society for Infectious Diseases) about the same cluster of cases of “pneumonia of unknown cause”, in Wuhan.

Several health authorities from around the world contacted WHO seeking additional information.


https://www.npr.org/sections/coronaviru ... study-says

Today we find out that US blood donors had it in their system in Dec of 2019 as well.

Researchers came to this conclusion after the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention analyzed blood donations collected by the American Red Cross from residents in nine states. They found evidence of coronavirus antibodies in 106 out of 7,389 blood donations. The CDC analyzed the blood collected between Dec. 13 and Jan. 17.


That Red Cross story is amazing.

I maintain belief that NOTHING will be unstudied about COVID-19 and while some disagreements are possible, nearly all significant facts will be known about it when scientists finish the peer-reviewed factual work.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Should China pay reparations for the economic damage from the virus ?

Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:57 pm

c933103 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Why should they pay? The people who are getting it now are getting it mainly due to there own stupidity. Thanksgiving weekend is a prime example of how ignorant people can be.

Main reason behind many of people downplaying the virus are becauss of their mistakened understanding on threat of the virus.
Yes, you can say stupidity is the cause of such underestimation, but stupidity in itself wouldn't cause such made up misunderstanding
Many of those misunderstanding in Western society nowadays are caused by mistakened data from China early in the pandemic, and how Western government/expert/media reacted to those data by taking them at face value, although many of those have been corrected, but the impression still remain in the mind of public, especially among those that have lower intellect, and is still affecting their actions nowadays.
----
And no, even if you do all the preventive measure, you cannot be 100% sure the virus wouldn't hit you, not to mention many in their jobs or other position are bearing the risk of potential infection to complete their role in the society, imo it's wrong to.blame these victims to the virus.


We’re 10 months in, what happened at the start of this pandemic is entirely irrelevant today. The US, the UK and some other nations completely screwed up, other countries did not, other countries acted responsibly and in the best interests of there population. Other countries have leaders and citizens that refuse to listen to expert advise. Case in point the vast numbers of people in the US travelling home for thanksgiving.
 
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c933103
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Re: Should China pay reparations for the economic damage from the virus ?

Tue Dec 01, 2020 7:53 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Why should they pay? The people who are getting it now are getting it mainly due to there own stupidity. Thanksgiving weekend is a prime example of how ignorant people can be.

Main reason behind many of people downplaying the virus are becauss of their mistakened understanding on threat of the virus.
Yes, you can say stupidity is the cause of such underestimation, but stupidity in itself wouldn't cause such made up misunderstanding
Many of those misunderstanding in Western society nowadays are caused by mistakened data from China early in the pandemic, and how Western government/expert/media reacted to those data by taking them at face value, although many of those have been corrected, but the impression still remain in the mind of public, especially among those that have lower intellect, and is still affecting their actions nowadays.
----
And no, even if you do all the preventive measure, you cannot be 100% sure the virus wouldn't hit you, not to mention many in their jobs or other position are bearing the risk of potential infection to complete their role in the society, imo it's wrong to.blame these victims to the virus.


We’re 10 months in, what happened at the start of this pandemic is entirely irrelevant today. The US, the UK and some other nations completely screwed up, other countries did not, other countries acted responsibly and in the best interests of there population. Other countries have leaders and citizens that refuse to listen to expert advise. Case in point the vast numbers of people in the US travelling home for thanksgiving.

If you think experience can be overwritten this easily then you'd be wrong
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate. 求同存異. よく見て・よく聞いて・よく考える
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stl07
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Re: Should China pay reparations for the economic damage from the virus ?

Tue Dec 01, 2020 10:36 pm

Yes, but if we go down that wormhole, the US would be responsible for way more damages than China for their lies and incation involving the pandemic.
Instead of typing in "mods", consider using the report function.
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winginit
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Re: Should China pay reparations for the economic damage from the virus ?

Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:34 am

Max Q wrote:
I haven’t decided myself whether this is appropriate, while I don’t believe COVID was created ‘in a lab’ it does appear the Chinese government went out of their way to hide the extent of the problem, that and other actions or the lack of them contributed to the worldwide spread of the virus


While they looked out for their own population with extreme measures they showed little concern for the rest of the world


Sadly, none of the dead can be brought back but trillions of dollars in damage has been done to the world economy


Is China responsible and should they pay now ?


Pay who? How much? Enforced how?

It's all an impossibility, and would be laughed at by many, to include a Chinese government who, by the way, are essentially back up and running at normal economics levels while most of the rest of the world will continue to be crippled for months. China continues to have the leverage here on the global scale.

LCDFlight wrote:
It’s one small example, but not the only reason, why regime change in China is an important goal.


True regime change in China won't happen in any of our lifetimes. So long as generations continue to be better off economically than their parents, the populous will support the status quo, and China had loads of runway for that to be the case for at least another generation or two.
 
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c933103
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Re: Should China pay reparations for the economic damage from the virus ?

Wed Dec 02, 2020 1:11 am

stl07 wrote:
Yes, but if we go down that wormhole, the US would be responsible for way more damages than China for their lies and incation involving the pandemic.

Many of those "lies and incation" are caused by misinterpretation of those flawed China sent by China. Especially recalling what mainstream media in the US were saying in January and how long it took for their stances to change.
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate. 求同存異. よく見て・よく聞いて・よく考える
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You are now at your youngest moment in your remaining life.
 
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c933103
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Re: Should China pay reparations for the economic damage from the virus ?

Wed Dec 02, 2020 1:25 am

winginit wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
It’s one small example, but not the only reason, why regime change in China is an important goal.


True regime change in China won't happen in any of our lifetimes. So long as generations continue to be better off economically than their parents, the populous will support the status quo, and China had loads of runway for that to be the case for at least another generation or two.

Hard to say. My observation in China is that people who born after 1995-2000 tend to be much more a government supporter than those that came before them, despite they are all enjoying economic development bonuses. I feel like that's caused by changes in education and propaganda system in China following the ascend into China of the current Chinese Leader. It feel like similar to some European countries in the interwar period. If the situation fail to improve then their regime could end like some countries in the Europe after WWII
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate. 求同存異. よく見て・よく聞いて・よく考える
(≧▽≦) Nyan! Nyan! Nyan! Nyan! Nyan! Nyan! Nyan! Nyan!
(≧▽≦) Meow Meow Meow! Meow Meow Meow Meow!
You are now at your youngest moment in your remaining life.
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Should China pay reparations for the economic damage from the virus ?

Wed Dec 02, 2020 1:50 am

stl07 wrote:
Yes, but if we go down that wormhole, the US would be responsible for way more damages than China for their lies and incation involving the pandemic.


Interesting, should the US big pharma companies that are coming up with safe and effective vaccines not spread the much needed vaccine that is necessary because of this Chinese spread virus? Because if they do, the interesting thing will be, China spread a deadly virus to the entire world, but the US again comes to the rescue eradicating it with the amazing ingenuity and advanced scientific work of getting a vaccine before a year?. Courtesy of US private industry, not the awesome and great socialist public medicine of Europe or all the money China has.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Should China pay reparations for the economic damage from the virus ?

Wed Dec 02, 2020 1:55 am

AirWorthy99 wrote:
stl07 wrote:
Yes, but if we go down that wormhole, the US would be responsible for way more damages than China for their lies and incation involving the pandemic.


Interesting, should the US big pharma companies that are coming up with safe and effective vaccines not spread the much needed vaccine that is necessary because of this Chinese spread virus? Because if they do, the interesting thing will be, China spread a deadly virus to the entire world, but the US again comes to the rescue eradicating it with the amazing ingenuity and advanced scientific work of getting a vaccine before a year?. Courtesy of US private industry, not the awesome and great socialist public medicine of Europe or all the money China has.


The virus was spread globally by business and leisure travel - not by the Chinese. Just a factual correction.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Should China pay reparations for the economic damage from the virus ?

Wed Dec 02, 2020 1:58 am

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
stl07 wrote:
Yes, but if we go down that wormhole, the US would be responsible for way more damages than China for their lies and incation involving the pandemic.


Interesting, should the US big pharma companies that are coming up with safe and effective vaccines not spread the much needed vaccine that is necessary because of this Chinese spread virus? Because if they do, the interesting thing will be, China spread a deadly virus to the entire world, but the US again comes to the rescue eradicating it with the amazing ingenuity and advanced scientific work of getting a vaccine before a year?. Courtesy of US private industry, not the awesome and great socialist public medicine of Europe or all the money China has.


The virus was spread globally by business and leisure travel - not by the Chinese. Just a factual correction.


For a virus to be allowed to be spread abroad, but not domestically. I would rather believe it was allowed to be spread, as it was. Based on facts.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-18783-0

They should have shut down all travel, leaving China, if that's what you believe.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Should China pay reparations for the economic damage from the virus ?

Wed Dec 02, 2020 2:04 am

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

Interesting, should the US big pharma companies that are coming up with safe and effective vaccines not spread the much needed vaccine that is necessary because of this Chinese spread virus? Because if they do, the interesting thing will be, China spread a deadly virus to the entire world, but the US again comes to the rescue eradicating it with the amazing ingenuity and advanced scientific work of getting a vaccine before a year?. Courtesy of US private industry, not the awesome and great socialist public medicine of Europe or all the money China has.


The virus was spread globally by business and leisure travel - not by the Chinese. Just a factual correction.


For a virus to be allowed to be spread abroad, but not domestically. I would rather believe it was allowed to be spread, as it was. Based on facts.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-18783-0

They should have shut down all travel, leaving China, if that's what you believe.


Your side: why should economy suffer for a relatively harmless virus?

Also your side: China should have shut down their economy to save the rest of us

Zero sense made.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Should China pay reparations for the economic damage from the virus ?

Wed Dec 02, 2020 2:10 am

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

The virus was spread globally by business and leisure travel - not by the Chinese. Just a factual correction.


For a virus to be allowed to be spread abroad, but not domestically. I would rather believe it was allowed to be spread, as it was. Based on facts.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-18783-0

They should have shut down all travel, leaving China, if that's what you believe.


Your side: why should economy suffer for a relatively harmless virus?

Also your side: China should have shut down their economy to save the rest of us

Zero sense made.


Excuse me? so you are saying China never shut down? Of course they did. To the detriment of their economy for a few months, but still they did not shut down their travel to outside of China, when all of this was starting.

Had they closed their borders the same way they closed their cities and their domestic travels, perhaps, just perhaps it would have been limited only to their cities or the region (Korea, Japan etc).

The mere fact we don't exactly know for sure what was the origin of this virus, leaves us no more than to be highly skeptical of anything they have said since the beginning.

As for shutting down our economy, I was on the record since the start it was a bad idea, it turns out even Biden believes the same, and just recently Fauci too. So, it seems I might have been right.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Should China pay reparations for the economic damage from the virus ?

Wed Dec 02, 2020 2:14 am

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

For a virus to be allowed to be spread abroad, but not domestically. I would rather believe it was allowed to be spread, as it was. Based on facts.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-18783-0

They should have shut down all travel, leaving China, if that's what you believe.


Your side: why should economy suffer for a relatively harmless virus?

Also your side: China should have shut down their economy to save the rest of us

Zero sense made.


Excuse me? so you are saying China never shut down? Of course they did. To the detriment of their economy for a few months, but still they did not shut down their travel to outside of China, when all of this was starting.

Had they closed their borders the same way they closed their cities and their domestic travels, perhaps, just perhaps it would have been limited only to their cities or the region (Korea, Japan etc).

The mere fact we don't exactly know for sure what was the origin of this virus, leaves us no more than to be highly skeptical of anything they have said since the beginning.

As for shutting down our economy, I was on the record since the start it was a bad idea, it turns out even Biden believes the same, and just recently Fauci too. So, it seems I might have been right.


They did not have a total shutdown - they severely locked down areas where spread was indicated and went to a 100% mask-wearing requirement everywhere.

As to your assertion that it could have been limited by simply closing their borders, that’s a wild assumption. Due to the current global nature of travel and incubation period, it was obviously already on its way to Europe and other parts of the world well before they knew a serious domestic issue was afoot. That’s elementary statistical probability.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Should China pay reparations for the economic damage from the virus ?

Wed Dec 02, 2020 2:19 am

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Your side: why should economy suffer for a relatively harmless virus?

Also your side: China should have shut down their economy to save the rest of us

Zero sense made.


Excuse me? so you are saying China never shut down? Of course they did. To the detriment of their economy for a few months, but still they did not shut down their travel to outside of China, when all of this was starting.

Had they closed their borders the same way they closed their cities and their domestic travels, perhaps, just perhaps it would have been limited only to their cities or the region (Korea, Japan etc).

The mere fact we don't exactly know for sure what was the origin of this virus, leaves us no more than to be highly skeptical of anything they have said since the beginning.

As for shutting down our economy, I was on the record since the start it was a bad idea, it turns out even Biden believes the same, and just recently Fauci too. So, it seems I might have been right.


They did not have a total shutdown - they severely locked down areas where spread was indicated and went to a 100% mask-wearing requirement everywhere.

As to your assertion that it could have been limited by simply closing their borders, that’s a wild assumption. Due to the current global nature of travel and incubation period, it was obviously already on its way to Europe and other parts of the world well before they knew a serious domestic issue was afoot. That’s elementary statistical probability.



Aaron, you and I were on this forum debating the "impeachment trial" of Donald Trump when this was going on in China. You aand the rest of the world believed China had this controlled. Even the WHO, they delayed declaring this a pandemic, why? because they all believed in China. Turns out they were covering up, they were playing this down from the start. You can use google to see the posts on this subject, or even this forum.

They could have prevented this, had they used the same rationale they used when they shut down domestic travel, and implemented their own draconian policies. They chose not to, the virus went out and it was up to each country to have managed this. But had this happened in the US or even Europe, we would have adverted millions of deaths because of transparency which is needed on health crises.

The Chinese are culpable of this. Sadly they won't pay the price for this. Too powerful, and Biden is coming up.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
Kent350787
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Re: Should China pay reparations for the economic damage from the virus ?

Wed Dec 02, 2020 2:33 am

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Your side: why should economy suffer for a relatively harmless virus?

Also your side: China should have shut down their economy to save the rest of us

Zero sense made.


Excuse me? so you are saying China never shut down? Of course they did. To the detriment of their economy for a few months, but still they did not shut down their travel to outside of China, when all of this was starting.

Had they closed their borders the same way they closed their cities and their domestic travels, perhaps, just perhaps it would have been limited only to their cities or the region (Korea, Japan etc).

The mere fact we don't exactly know for sure what was the origin of this virus, leaves us no more than to be highly skeptical of anything they have said since the beginning.

As for shutting down our economy, I was on the record since the start it was a bad idea, it turns out even Biden believes the same, and just recently Fauci too. So, it seems I might have been right.


They did not have a total shutdown - they severely locked down areas where spread was indicated and went to a 100% mask-wearing requirement everywhere.

As to your assertion that it could have been limited by simply closing their borders, that’s a wild assumption. Due to the current global nature of travel and incubation period, it was obviously already on its way to Europe and other parts of the world well before they knew a serious domestic issue was afoot. That’s elementary statistical probability.


Pre-COVID, SYD alone had around 30 direct flights per week fomr mainland China, including directly from Wuhan.

Yet COVID spread to Australia from the USA. China's nearest neighbours are overall not badly affected.

Yes, the virus does appear to have spread from China, but the impacts are highly variable depdnign on where when nations identified infections, and the types of responses. Pandemic preparedness and an appetite for lockdowns and border closures has worked, dealing with infection after the fact has not.

Perhaps China ought to have been more integrated into the response, including financially, but nations also need to own their differing responses.
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c933103
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Re: Should China pay reparations for the economic damage from the virus ?

Wed Dec 02, 2020 2:54 am

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Your side: why should economy suffer for a relatively harmless virus?

Also your side: China should have shut down their economy to save the rest of us

Zero sense made.


Excuse me? so you are saying China never shut down? Of course they did. To the detriment of their economy for a few months, but still they did not shut down their travel to outside of China, when all of this was starting.

Had they closed their borders the same way they closed their cities and their domestic travels, perhaps, just perhaps it would have been limited only to their cities or the region (Korea, Japan etc).

The mere fact we don't exactly know for sure what was the origin of this virus, leaves us no more than to be highly skeptical of anything they have said since the beginning.

As for shutting down our economy, I was on the record since the start it was a bad idea, it turns out even Biden believes the same, and just recently Fauci too. So, it seems I might have been right.


They did not have a total shutdown - they severely locked down areas where spread was indicated and went to a 100% mask-wearing requirement everywhere.

As to your assertion that it could have been limited by simply closing their borders, that’s a wild assumption. Due to the current global nature of travel and incubation period, it was obviously already on its way to Europe and other parts of the world well before they knew a serious domestic issue was afoot. That’s elementary statistical probability.

1. Countries like Vietnam and Taiwan and New Zealand as well as many Pacific countries succeeded in preventing entry of virus en masses through border measures.
2. It was known to be a serious issue in China in December 2019 when the virus was being sequenced as similar to the one caused 2003 outbreak. But they chose to suppress the news and downplay its infectivity, causing additional preventive measures not being enacted. They delayed until late January 2020 to start saying there are actually something going on and have to went into a lockdown yet still claiming there were only hundreds of cases at the time.
3. While China ultimately have to enforce nationwide lockdown to contain the virus, the widely underreported numbers (like claiming only thousand of cases when they're experiencing medical meltdown) have blinded media, expert, and government of western countries, causing these parties responded less than sufficiently, and allowed it to continue spread until it hit the kinit of Western medical system to know the actual character of the virus which then became impossible to contain.
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TWA772LR
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Re: Should China pay reparations for the economic damage from the virus ?

Wed Dec 02, 2020 3:45 am

The last time the world put full blame on one country for a cataclysmic event we ended up with the worst war in human history so far. And today's PRC is not like a defeated German Empire in 1918 so good luck.
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TWA772LR
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Re: Should China pay reparations for the economic damage from the virus ?

Wed Dec 02, 2020 3:56 am

AirWorthy99 wrote:
stl07 wrote:
Yes, but if we go down that wormhole, the US would be responsible for way more damages than China for their lies and incation involving the pandemic.


Interesting, should the US big pharma companies that are coming up with safe and effective vaccines not spread the much needed vaccine that is necessary because of this Chinese spread virus? Because if they do, the interesting thing will be, China spread a deadly virus to the entire world, but the US again comes to the rescue eradicating it with the amazing ingenuity and advanced scientific work of getting a vaccine before a year?. Courtesy of US private industry, not the awesome and great socialist public medicine of Europe or all the money China has.

Make the vaccination and prove it's safer than the Russians or Chinese and export it (especially to fringe nations that seem more cozy with China)and make billions. What's not to like?
When wasn't America great?


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Zkpilot
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Re: Should China pay reparations for the economic damage from the virus ?

Wed Dec 02, 2020 4:32 am

They absolutely should face sanctions since they caused this (and it’s not the first time in recent decades), they tried to cover it up, they deliberately let it spread around the world to make sure everyone else felt the economic impact of it too. All of that is assuming it was just a “natural” outbreak. If however it was from a lab (accidental or deliberate) then this becomes biological warfare and is a war crime - mass genocide.
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Aaron747
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Re: Should China pay reparations for the economic damage from the virus ?

Wed Dec 02, 2020 4:47 am

AirWorthy99 wrote:
They could have prevented this, had they used the same rationale they used when they shut down domestic travel, and implemented their own draconian policies. They chose not to, the virus went out and it was up to each country to have managed this. But had this happened in the US or even Europe, we would have adverted millions of deaths because of transparency which is needed on health crises.

The Chinese are culpable of this. Sadly they won't pay the price for this. Too powerful, and Biden is coming up.


It doesn't matter who POTUS is - influential as our country may be, the POTUS is not the de facto arbiter of international culpability for anything.

You are still conflating causality with multiple parallel occurrences in a complex system. Managing an outbreak in a country is not the same as finding and isolating vermin in your house - much as you would like to depict it as such. At the same time they were genotyping the virus and covering up the extent of their domestic outbreak, it had already been out to Europe and beyond at least a month or two prior. That's just the nature of our world today - and a scenario epidemiologists have warned about for over 20 years. Cherry-picking the situation will not make you more right.
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steveinbc
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Re: Should China pay reparations for the economic damage from the virus ?

Wed Dec 02, 2020 5:23 am

My personal view is that the Government of China represents the greatest threat to world peace today. It's a Government that is supremely authoritarian, is intolerant of criticism (constructive or otherwise), is entirely non-transparent with domestically and internationally, and is hell-bent to achieve number one status regardless of cost ro its citizens or how or deals with other nations internationally. I dont believe there is sufficient evidence to support "Wuhan Flu" bit there's overwhelming evidence that the Chinese Government has used the pandemic to its advantage economically.
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c933103
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Re: Should China pay reparations for the economic damage from the virus ?

Wed Dec 02, 2020 5:51 am

TWA772LR wrote:
The last time the world put full blame on one country for a cataclysmic event we ended up with the worst war in human history so far. And today's PRC is not like a defeated German Empire in 1918 so good luck.

That being "worst war in human history so far" have more to do with technological progression and the formation of ethnic countries through out 20th century continually hearing up the political situation in the area until the war, and then it finally reached the point and everyone finally realized it's bad and should stop doing so. If it were not the worst war then that mean worser and worser wars would have came after that
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Tiredofhumanity
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Re: Should China pay reparations for the economic damage from the virus ?

Wed Dec 02, 2020 6:39 am

Kiwirob wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Why should they pay? The people who are getting it now are getting it mainly due to there own stupidity. Thanksgiving weekend is a prime example of how ignorant people can be.

Main reason behind many of people downplaying the virus are becauss of their mistakened understanding on threat of the virus.
Yes, you can say stupidity is the cause of such underestimation, but stupidity in itself wouldn't cause such made up misunderstanding
Many of those misunderstanding in Western society nowadays are caused by mistakened data from China early in the pandemic, and how Western government/expert/media reacted to those data by taking them at face value, although many of those have been corrected, but the impression still remain in the mind of public, especially among those that have lower intellect, and is still affecting their actions nowadays.
----
And no, even if you do all the preventive measure, you cannot be 100% sure the virus wouldn't hit you, not to mention many in their jobs or other position are bearing the risk of potential infection to complete their role in the society, imo it's wrong to.blame these victims to the virus.


We’re 10 months in, what happened at the start of this pandemic is entirely irrelevant today. The US, the UK and some other nations completely screwed up, other countries did not, other countries acted responsibly and in the best interests of there population. Other countries have leaders and citizens that refuse to listen to expert advise. Case in point the vast numbers of people in the US travelling home for thanksgiving.


I disagree - knowing why/how/where the health system broke down is crucial for preventing another plague like this. Humans are continuing to create unnatural interfaces with animals, and throwing global warming onto the list of our environmental footprint, these pandemics will likely become more frequent.

While I think it's foolish to force reparations, if the PRC continues to delay the WHO investigative team and leave exotic animal parts under a wildlife ban exemption for quack impotence cures, then the rest of the world needs to kick Jinping the Pooh in the behind... somehow.

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marcelh
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Re: Should China pay reparations for the economic damage from the virus ?

Wed Dec 02, 2020 7:07 am

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Interesting, should the US big pharma companies that are coming up with safe and effective vaccines not spread the much needed vaccine that is necessary because of this Chinese spread virus? Because if they do, the interesting thing will be, China spread a deadly virus to the entire world, but the US again comes to the rescue eradicating it with the amazing ingenuity and advanced scientific work of getting a vaccine before a year?. Courtesy of US private industry, not the awesome and great socialist public medicine of Europe or all the money China has.


To put your statement about "the US again comes to the rescue eradicating it with the amazing ingenuity and advanced scientific work of getting a vaccine before a year" in some perspective:
Pfizer is closely working together with BioNtech from Germany to develope a successfull vaccine (BNT162b2), see also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BNT162b2
Some quotes:
"BioNTech is the original developer of the underlying vaccine technology, while Pfizer provides logistics, finances and oversees the clinical trials, and is the manufacturing partner of BNT162b2 worldwide, with the exception of China where the license was purchased by Fosun."
I don't want to downplay the role of Pfizer, but in the end it's originally developed in the "great socialist public medicine of Europe". But hey, don't let your unbiased mindset be interfered with some fake news.....
 
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c933103
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Re: Should China pay reparations for the economic damage from the virus ?

Wed Dec 02, 2020 7:10 am

Aaron747 wrote:
It doesn't matter who POTUS is - influential as our country may be, the POTUS is not the de facto arbiter of international culpability for anything.

You are underestimating US's influence. While POTUS decision would often tilt toward US's advantage as aell as the POTUS personal believes, people aren't calling US "the world police" for nothing. This is a position Trump tried to get away during his first term election campaign when he said "America First".
You are still conflating causality with multiple parallel occurrences in a complex system. Managing an outbreak in a country is not the same as finding and isolating vermin in your house - much as you would like to depict it as such.

You can treat it as such when it still haven't been spreaded everywhere
At the same time they were genotyping the virus and covering up the extent of their domestic outbreak, it had already been out to Europe and beyond at least a month or two prior.

It is possible that some cases have already been spread internationally before Chinese labs first determine the virus type in 2019 December, but the number will be relatively less for it to be comparatively easy to be contained. Countries like Japan, Korea, Thailand and such with more traffic with China have recorded cases from China before China officially declared the virus causing outbreak, and have subsequently reported series of cases from China including local infection and untraceable local infections, but those cases onlh caused moderate scale of relatively managable outbreak in these countries
At the same time, Europe underestimated the virus due to the underreported number from China being trusted by European government, which led to the border response being as such and caused the pandemic situation as you remember
That's just the nature of our world today - and a scenario epidemiologists have warned about for over 20 years. Cherry-picking the situation will not make you more right.

Warning are supposed to be heard, actioned and prevented. China claimed they do. But not.
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marcelh
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Re: Should China pay reparations for the economic damage from the virus ?

Wed Dec 02, 2020 7:15 am

AirWorthy99 wrote:
. But had this happened in the US or even Europe, we would have adverted millions of deaths because of transparency which is needed on health crises.


About transparancy, Covid19 and your beloved POTUS: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-told-bob-woodward-he-knew-february-covid-19-was-n1239658
 
tommy1808
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Re: Should China pay reparations for the economic damage from the virus ?

Wed Dec 02, 2020 7:24 am

c933103 wrote:
That's just the nature of our world today - and a scenario epidemiologists have warned about for over 20 years. Cherry-picking the situation will not make you more right.

Warning are supposed to be heard, actioned and prevented. China claimed they do. But not.


If only the WHO was better funded... i wonder who originally defunded it like that... mmmh...

Lets just assume we had a world court such matter could be taken to. We used to have one that actually was being obeyed, i wonder where the precedent came from that changed this .... mmm.

So the rest of the world would claim "You did this and need to pay", and China would say "Can´t be us responsible, since Taiwan or South Korea are on the same planet as the rest of you, and that would imply the scope of the damage was caused by nation governments incompetence, not due to any lack of timely information from us", and that they, since the large economic disruption wasn´t caused by them, want reparations from the ...lets say... top 10 most incompetent nations....

best regards
Thomas
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tommy1808
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Re: Should China pay reparations for the economic damage from the virus ?

Wed Dec 02, 2020 7:32 am

marcelh wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
. But had this happened in the US or even Europe, we would have adverted millions of deaths because of transparency which is needed on health crises.


About transparancy, Covid19 and your beloved POTUS: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-told-bob-woodward-he-knew-february-covid-19-was-n1239658


At the time the genome was available SARS-V2 infections where essentially completely limited to the PRC, which was also the case one incubation period later..... and the first death outside of China happened even after that. Its just about the lamest excuse ever....

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
WIederling
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Re: Should China pay reparations for the economic damage from the virus ?

Wed Dec 02, 2020 7:57 am

AirWorthy99 wrote:
US again comes to the rescue eradicating it with the amazing ingenuity and advanced scientific work of getting a vaccine before a year?. Courtesy of US private industry, not the awesome and great socialist public medicine of Europe .. .


Biontec is a German company and the inventor. Pfizer apparently is production partner only.

The German government has invested massively into Biontec and some other (German) candidates.

Another vaccine candidate is British afair.
and a bunch of further candidates:
https://www.vfa.de/de/englische-inhalte ... t-covid-19

US workshare in this is probably better desribed as bluster and blather.
( and a cringe worthy "AFirst" attempt by Trump to exclusively buy up some company or other.)
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Re: Should China pay reparations for the economic damage from the virus ?

Wed Dec 02, 2020 7:58 am

tommy1808 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
That's just the nature of our world today - and a scenario epidemiologists have warned about for over 20 years. Cherry-picking the situation will not make you more right.

Warning are supposed to be heard, actioned and prevented. China claimed they do. But not.


If only the WHO was better funded... i wonder who originally defunded it like that... mmmh...

No funding would fix wrong decision. WHO have decided to listen and follow the Chinese figures and announcement, and operate under the assumption that they're true with gyidance being given out according to such.
Lets just assume we had a world court such matter could be taken to. We used to have one that actually was being obeyed, i wonder where the precedent came from that changed this .... mmm.

That was being obeyed by who? Obviously not China
So the rest of the world would claim "You did this and need to pay", and China would say "Can´t be us responsible, since Taiwan or South Korea are on the same planet as the rest of you, and that would imply the scope of the damage was caused by nation governments incompetence, not due to any lack of timely information from us", and that they, since the large economic disruption wasn´t caused by them, want reparations from the ...lets say... top 10 most incompetent nations....

best regards
Thomas

Yes, but the "incompetence" here mean trusting and acting according to situation announced by China. When one lied and another truly believed the lie and caused damage, I wouldn't say the one who believed in the lie would be the one bearing main responsibility.
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tommy1808
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Re: Should China pay reparations for the economic damage from the virus ?

Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:10 am

c933103 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
c933103 wrote:

Warning are supposed to be heard, actioned and prevented. China claimed they do. But not.


If only the WHO was better funded... i wonder who originally defunded it like that... mmmh...

No funding would fix wrong decision. WHO have decided to listen and follow the Chinese figures and announcement, and operate under the assumption that they're true with gyidance being given out according to such.


a sufficiently funded WHO would not need to only relay on what governments tell them.

Lets just assume we had a world court such matter could be taken to. We used to have one that actually was being obeyed, i wonder where the precedent came from that changed this .... mmm.

That was being obeyed by who? Obviously not China


can you point us to any International Court of Justice ruling the PRC has not obeyed?

Yes, but the "incompetence" here mean trusting and acting according to situation announced by China. When one lied and another truly believed the lie and caused damage, I wouldn't say the one who believed in the lie would be the one bearing main responsibility.


China gave out samples and the full virus genome before there was even a double digit number of cases outside of China, over two weeks before the first death outside of China, which happened to be a Chinese citizen, and over a month since they made SARS-V2 official. The argument has no merits.

"You honor, he sold me a car knowing that there might be a problem with the breaks, and then i had an accident!"
"I told you there might be a problem with the breaks weeks before you had that accident".

Good luck with getting damages for that accident.

best regards
Thomas
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petertenthije
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Re: Should China pay reparations for the economic damage from the virus ?

Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:21 am

AirWorthy99 wrote:
But had this happened in the US or even Europe, we would have adverted millions of deaths because of transparency which is needed on health crises.
I am not convinced of that.

How long did it take for Trump to even accept that the virus had entered the USA?
How long did it take for Trump to accept the virus would not be gone within a few days, a few weeks... a month...
How long did it take for Trump to accept that using PPE is advisable (did he ever accept this?)

To this day there are people in the USA that are not convinced of the severity of the situation! And that's with China as an convenient scape goat. What if the next virus is home grown and there is no scape goat. Can you really tell me you are sure it won't be downplayed?
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Re: Should China pay reparations for the economic damage from the virus ?

Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:28 am

tommy1808 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

If only the WHO was better funded... i wonder who originally defunded it like that... mmmh...

No funding would fix wrong decision. WHO have decided to listen and follow the Chinese figures and announcement, and operate under the assumption that they're true with gyidance being given out according to such.


a sufficiently funded WHO would not need to only relay on what governments tell them.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/02/worl ... virus.html
WHO explain its aligning with Chinese government position as for "access to the country", not funding.
The only way I can see funding help in this aspect is through bribe

Lets just assume we had a world court such matter could be taken to. We used to have one that actually was being obeyed, i wonder where the precedent came from that changed this .... mmm.

That was being obeyed by who? Obviously not China


can you point us to any International Court of Justice ruling the PRC has not obeyed?

Like https://www.dw.com/en/china-to-ignore-i ... a-19396768 ? Although it is not ICJ but is still a world court setup under the UN structure

Yes, but the "incompetence" here mean trusting and acting according to situation announced by China. When one lied and another truly believed the lie and caused damage, I wouldn't say the one who believed in the lie would be the one bearing main responsibility.


China gave out samples and the full virus genome before there was even a double digit number of cases outside of China, over two weeks before the first death outside of China, which happened to be a Chinese citizen, and over a month since they made SARS-V2 official. The argument has no merits.

1. The genome itself does not obviously indicate the virus's characteristic
2. The publishing was genome by a Chinese lab was probably undesired by Chinese government given they faced immediately repercussion from the government after they published it
https://amp.scmp.com/news/china/society ... ld-ordered
"You honor, he sold me a car knowing that there might be a problem with the breaks, and then i had an accident!"
"I told you there might be a problem with the breaks weeks before you had that accident".

Good luck with getting damages for that accident.

Not if the warning was equivalent of "hey this car is fine except a bit scratches on the painting" which didn't cover any essential bits.
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c933103
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Re: Should China pay reparations for the economic damage from the virus ?

Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:41 am

petertenthije wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
But had this happened in the US or even Europe, we would have adverted millions of deaths because of transparency which is needed on health crises.
I am not convinced of that.

How long did it take for Trump to even accept that the virus had entered the USA?
How long did it take for Trump to accept the virus would not be gone within a few days, a few weeks... a month...
How long did it take for Trump to accept that using PPE is advisable (did he ever accept this?)

To this day there are people in the USA that are not convinced of the severity of the situation! And that's with China as an convenient scape goat. What if the next virus is home grown and there is no scape goat. Can you really tell me you are sure it won't be downplayed?

What you said can be fully attributed to enormous report made by mass media, experts, politicians and others in 2020 January and early February, when they believed the Chinese announcement. People who are not as intellectual and didn't trust these leaders this much from the past grew their doubt and disturst when some of those experts found out the problem and corrected their stances.
Without erroneous signals sent by China, the experts and media and CDC and WHO would have been easier to publish proper guidance and gain trust from the public.
Another point. It's meaningless to blame Trump being XXX when Europe's situation without Tump isn't all that better than Trump's America
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tommy1808
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Re: Should China pay reparations for the economic damage from the virus ?

Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:50 am

c933103 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
"You honor, he sold me a car knowing that there might be a problem with the breaks, and then i had an accident!"
"I told you there might be a problem with the breaks weeks before you had that accident".

Good luck with getting damages for that accident.

Not if the warning was equivalent of "hey this car is fine except a bit scratches on the painting" which didn't cover any essential bits.


you won´t get a single cent for the accident, rescinding the transaction, absolutely yes, getting reimbursment for having it fixed plus some penalty damages in some jurisdictions, yes. But the moment you get in that car after they told you there might be a problem with the breaks, the risk is on you and on you alone.

I am all for sanctioning China, indict arrest and toss every PRC government employee not under diplomatic immunity we can lay our hands on in prison for their share in crimes against humanity, but reparations for Covid are absolut nonsense even without considering that there is no indication that the damage was caused by anything the PRC did or didn´t do.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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Aesma
Posts: 13629
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Should China pay reparations for the economic damage from the virus ?

Wed Dec 02, 2020 9:14 am

Will the US fork money to Iraq and all surrounding countries for their illegal war there, and to European countries for suffering the consequences (ISIS, Syrian war, millions of refugees...) ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 13013
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Should China pay reparations for the economic damage from the virus ?

Wed Dec 02, 2020 9:16 am

tommy1808 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
"You honor, he sold me a car knowing that there might be a problem with the breaks, and then i had an accident!"
"I told you there might be a problem with the breaks weeks before you had that accident".

Good luck with getting damages for that accident.

Not if the warning was equivalent of "hey this car is fine except a bit scratches on the painting" which didn't cover any essential bits.


you won´t get a single cent for the accident, rescinding the transaction, absolutely yes, getting reimbursment for having it fixed plus some penalty damages in some jurisdictions, yes. But the moment you get in that car after they told you there might be a problem with the breaks, the risk is on you and on you alone.

I am all for sanctioning China, indict arrest and toss every PRC government employee not under diplomatic immunity we can lay our hands on in prison for their share in crimes against humanity, but reparations for Covid are absolut nonsense even without considering that there is no indication that the damage was caused by anything the PRC did or didn´t do.

best regards
Thomas


Precisely - as a practical matter this is a huge exercise in hunting for blame that does and solves nothing.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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c933103
Posts: 4845
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Should China pay reparations for the economic damage from the virus ?

Wed Dec 02, 2020 9:21 am

tommy1808 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
"You honor, he sold me a car knowing that there might be a problem with the breaks, and then i had an accident!"
"I told you there might be a problem with the breaks weeks before you had that accident".

Good luck with getting damages for that accident.

Not if the warning was equivalent of "hey this car is fine except a bit scratches on the painting" which didn't cover any essential bits.


you won´t get a single cent for the accident, rescinding the transaction, absolutely yes, getting reimbursment for having it fixed plus some penalty damages in some jurisdictions, yes. But the moment you get in that car after they told you there might be a problem with the breaks, the risk is on you and on you alone.

Thing is, the China didn't claim it is a "break problem"
In late December to early January, China claim there're only a few dozen cases and would only transmit from animal to human, making it much less concerning than many diseases around the world. When it come to late January when it lockdown Wuhan, the case numbers it reported was still only in the range if hundreds and it only recognized limited human to human transmission. If these figures and information taken by China were indeed fact, then it would be less infective than Ebola and much less case number than Ebola. It would have been right to not lock up border, to not warn against international travel, to criticize lockdown measure, to told people to live as usual and told people no need to use masks. But the situation didn't turn out this way.
I am all for sanctioning China, indict arrest and toss every PRC government employee not under diplomatic immunity we can lay our hands on in prison for their share in crimes against humanity, but reparations for Covid are absolut nonsense even without considering that there is no indication that the damage was caused by anything the PRC did or didn´t do.

best regards
Thomas

Thing is, employees in the Chinese government didn't decide to do this simply because they hate humanity. Of course they should be held responsible but they're motivated or even ordered by the government system to do so. Reparation or not, the ultimate responsibility must goes to the Chinese government system, else they'll simply find others to fill the same position and do the exact same thing.
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