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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Mon Dec 28, 2020 10:47 am

OA260 wrote:
Seems despite being told otherwise UK citizen's will keep healthcare .


Is this because there has been a deal? Or would have this been the case even without a deal?
 
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Mon Dec 28, 2020 10:49 am

OA260 wrote:
Seems despite being told otherwise UK citizen's will keep healthcare .


Britons to keep free healthcare access across Europe after Brexit through UK Global Health Insurance Card

Millions of Britons will still have access to free healthcare across Europe after the Brexit transition period ends.

The 27 million people with a European Health Insurance Card (EHIC) issued before the end of 2020 can still use it after January 1 until its expiry date.

In 2021, Britain will begin issuing a replacement to be called the UK Global Health Insurance Card.

This will allow state-provided medical treatment if people fall ill or have an accident in the EU, Switzerland, Norway, Iceland or Liechtenstein while on holiday, similar to the EHIC. It will cover chronic or existing illnesses, routine maternity care and emergency care.

The blue EHIC cards last up to five years, which means that some people could keep using theirs until 2025.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/scram ... -50k3k8p0f


Perfectly reasonable, and of course it would have to be reciprocated with EU citizens receiving same when visiting UK. Brexiteers seem to be holding this up as some sort of victory, while conveniently ignoring that we had this before Brexit.
 
bennett123
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Mon Dec 28, 2020 11:06 am

Also with an EHIC card, iirc you get the same treatment as the locals.

How does state health care in the EU zone compare to the NHS?.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Mon Dec 28, 2020 12:02 pm

bennett123 wrote:
Also with an EHIC card, iirc you get the same treatment as the locals.

How does state health care in the EU zone compare to the NHS?.


Depends on the country you are in. North-west Europe it is top-notch of course.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Mon Dec 28, 2020 12:13 pm

seahawk wrote:
A101 wrote:
seahawk wrote:

You are far from full sovereignty, as long as you follow the rules of the EU. That is why the whole deal is pointless.



As I have pointed out before everyone exporting to the EU follows EU rules. That’s very different from followingEU rules domestically.

Most western nations have what we refers to as junkets which are what the US call fact finding missions with other countries they look at certain policies of other nations, if they think someone has come up with good policy them they might want to try an emulate it in some way or form.

Whilst the UK/EU are starting it’s new trade agreement from a set of common rules both side equally have the opportunity to diverge from them, it’s up to each other if they think it’s in there interest to follow or not, and that is what being sovereign is about. Whilst being a member of the EU has a number of restrictions placed on you if you happen to disagree with policy coming from the EC but which a majority of member nations want you are forced to implement that new directive


No, a gloobal Britain that wants to be a highly dynamic and modern economy needs to completely free itself of EU rules and aim to perform on the global level. Singapore and other Asian Tiger states should be the role models.


The difference between the Asian tigers and the UK is they have populations who are prepared to work. Part of the reason why you found yourself in this pickle is because large numbers of you didn't want to work, immigrants were needed to fill all the vacant roles your citizens deemed beneath them. Then you had the audacity to complain about them taking your jobs!!
 
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OA260
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Mon Dec 28, 2020 12:46 pm

scbriml wrote:
OA260 wrote:
Seems despite being told otherwise UK citizen's will keep healthcare .


Britons to keep free healthcare access across Europe after Brexit through UK Global Health Insurance Card

Millions of Britons will still have access to free healthcare across Europe after the Brexit transition period ends.

The 27 million people with a European Health Insurance Card (EHIC) issued before the end of 2020 can still use it after January 1 until its expiry date.

In 2021, Britain will begin issuing a replacement to be called the UK Global Health Insurance Card.

This will allow state-provided medical treatment if people fall ill or have an accident in the EU, Switzerland, Norway, Iceland or Liechtenstein while on holiday, similar to the EHIC. It will cover chronic or existing illnesses, routine maternity care and emergency care.

The blue EHIC cards last up to five years, which means that some people could keep using theirs until 2025.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/scram ... -50k3k8p0f


Perfectly reasonable, and of course it would have to be reciprocated with EU citizens receiving same when visiting UK. Brexiteers seem to be holding this up as some sort of victory, while conveniently ignoring that we had this before Brexit.



I could not care less who tries to spin it to their own camp leave/remain Im just interested in what the facts are. As I am sure you will agree myths and lies were spread from both camps but what really matters now is whats the reality and the real situation with these things. GHIC is replacing the EHIC and the clue is in the name Global which means the UK are going to have agreements with other countries about reciprocal emergency care similar to what the EHIC now covers. Probably Australia and NZ will be on the list as before. What other countries are added remains to be seen .

I see Brits moaning about having to take out travel insurance but EHIC was never a replacement for travel insurance even though some naive people relied solely on it as such. Disaster waiting to happen.
 
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OA260
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Mon Dec 28, 2020 12:52 pm

bennett123 wrote:
Also with an EHIC card, iirc you get the same treatment as the locals.

How does state health care in the EU zone compare to the NHS?.


So nothing will change then. I can tell you that you would not want to be relying on that in some Southern European hospitals. I speak from experience. If you are leaving the UK you should have a proper private health cover with a reputable company. I have a annual Platinum cover and would not leave home without it even to EU countries. I would go so far as to say it should be a legal requirement for anyone entering a country. We have all seen the disasters of gofundme pages begging for donations to fly a sick person home or worse a dead body. The EHIC always only provided as basic emergency cover yet people fell into a false sense of security with it not knowing the implications should something serious happen to them in another EU country.
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Mon Dec 28, 2020 2:11 pm

scbriml wrote:
Brexiteers seem to be holding this up as some sort of victory, while conveniently ignoring that we had this before Brexit.


Reality is Brexit was massively oversold of course!
Remember the initial idea was to break up the 4 freedoms, so as to get rid of just FOM while preserving the rest.
Yes, leave the political union and all that, but very much preserve the 3 other EU freedoms unharmed.
That was the promise before and for half a year also the official government strategy after the referendum.
After all: "They need us more than we need them", right?

The UK was always fine with 3 of the 4 freedoms (goods, services and capital), it just didn't want the 4th one (labour) any longer because of massive domestic pressure for reasons already explained a million times: FOM to a western country with a low skilled, low educated population, combined with no minimum wage worth talking about is an open invitation to a mass influx of better skilled, beter educated workers from the new eastern European EU countries which were willing to come over to work for salaries unacceptable to most Brits. All British politicians (Conservatives and Labour alike) knew this was going to happen, yet they let it happen anyway, with the UK even being the only EU country NOT adopting a transition period after the acccession of eastern European countries, because the chronical low productivity of the British economy needed (and in fact still needs) this kind of labour as soon as it could to be able to better compete with say the German, French or Scandinavian economies. All of which is a consequence of decade long underinvestment in infrastructure, education and public services by successive British governments caring only about keeping taxes for their rich party donors as low as possible.
Anyway...

Only after it became obvious to Brexiteers that their promises in the referendum of being able to simply end FOM without also ending the 3 other freedoms at the same time, were impossible to deliver, did they suddenly have to make a serious economic case for Brexit too, because of the need to end the 4 freedoms all together. It's at that point that the whole mantra of a sovereign trade policy and the fantastic merrits of going global suddenly came to the foreground and it's also at that time Brexit ran into credibilty problems because time after time again, facts and figures showed there would be no Brexit dividend to the economy, quite on the contrary...
Brexit is a purely political project, not an economic one.

The UK government knows this inconvenient truth very well too, because it has come to this conclusion itself in its own assessments on the economic impact, but since Brexit is a political project, not an economic one, the line has to be kept officially and in public, while behind the scenes all must be done to minimize the impact on the economy by saving as much of the 3 freedoms as possible. That's why you'll always find the UK to be very tough of symbols, while giving ground very easily on issues you'd expect them to be tough on too, is they'd truly believe in the benefits of Brexit.

What I find very surprising however is how easily BoJo accepted to safeguard just the pilar of the freedom of goods, through this zero tariff/ zero quota FTA.
Sure, the British manufacturing industry has been very vocal in the past and is explicitly relieved now with this FTA, but the fact remains Britain is running a massive trade deficit in this area, so it's not exactly the most important pilar to protect, contrary to the 2 other ones: services and finances, both of which have been given a good knock by being excluded from this FTA. Much to BoJo's disliking, as he admitted himself. Yet nevertheless he signed this FTA? With the -IMHO idle- hope that in future, Britain will be able to negotiate also some additional FTA with the EU on the 2 other pilars of services and finances...
I think the reason BoJo signed it nevertheles is because of the fear for food shortages in the short run (the lesson of last week by the EU must have really opened quite some eyes), as well as to minimize a negative impact on the remaining manufacturing jobs in Britain: the last thing he wants is an announcement by Nissan somewhere in February telling the UK they are closing down Sunderland because they can't export to the EU tariff free anylonger.

And so to sell the fact the UK was with its back against the wall and had no other choice but to sign this FTA with the EU despite it being only advantageous to the EU, Brexiteers must find 'wins' in things which were already secured automatically by triggering article 50 and becoming a third country to the EU: basically the part on governance or by pointing out some things which won't be lost right away.

It's actually quite pathetic and very sobering: despite all the flag-waving and chest-thumping, the eye watering reality is the UK signs up to a deal with the EU which merely reconfirms its third party status (aka its sovereignty) already reestablished at the end of the transition period from article 50 in return for a wide open door for the EU which runs a massive trade surprlus with the UK, while at the same time tacitly committing the UK not to make its own rules too very different from those of the EU for all this import to be made as easy as possible,
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Mon Dec 28, 2020 2:16 pm

OA260 wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
Also with an EHIC card, iirc you get the same treatment as the locals.

How does state health care in the EU zone compare to the NHS?.


So nothing will change then.


Careful with claims like that!
Do we know how the financials behind this replacement card will work?

With the EHIC, any EU citizen came at the expense of the country where he was hospitalized.
Spain was for instance picking up a multi-million bill for Brits being hospitalized there each year as they fell ill or got injured during their stay there..
In future, it's very likely the Spanish government is going to simply send the bill for this over to the UK, just like it does with other third countries.
Has any cost been budgetted for this in next year's government budget? And how much is it?

The Turing scheme, which is to replace the Erasmus scheme for instance, will cost the UK some 200 million pounds, whereas before it was free.

And so it goes on a whole range of those Brexit replacement projects, in fact.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Mon Dec 28, 2020 2:58 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Brexiteers seem to be holding this up as some sort of victory, while conveniently ignoring that we had this before Brexit.


Reality is Brexit was massively oversold of course!
Remember the initial idea was to break up the 4 freedoms, so as to get rid of just FOM while preserving the rest.
Yes, leave the political union and all that, but very much preserve the 3 other EU freedoms unharmed.
That was the promise before and for half a year also the official government strategy after the referendum.
After all: "They need us more than we need them", right?

The UK was always fine with 3 of the 4 freedoms (goods, services and capital), it just didn't want the 4th one (labour) any longer because of massive domestic pressure for reasons already explained a million times: FOM to a western country with a low skilled, low educated population, combined with no minimum wage worth talking about is an open invitation to a mass influx of better skilled, beter educated workers from the new eastern European EU countries which were willing to come over to work for salaries unacceptable to most Brits. All British politicians (Conservatives and Labour alike) knew this was going to happen, yet they let it happen anyway, with the UK even being the only EU country NOT adopting a transition period after the acccession of eastern European countries, because the chronical low productivity of the British economy needed (and in fact still needs) this kind of labour as soon as it could to be able to better compete with say the German, French or Scandinavian economies. All of which is a consequence of decade long underinvestment in infrastructure, education and public services by successive British governments caring only about keeping taxes for their rich party donors as low as possible.
Anyway...,


That was a self inflicted wound. When it came to the freedom of movement the UK supported the early free movement of Eastern Europeans in the hope that they would mostly migrate to Germany and France and that this would place an economic burden on those countries. This idea was not acceptable for Germany and France (among others) and so countries were free to limit the freedom of movement for a long time. Just to make a political statement the UK chose not to. When the transistional period of 7 years passed, the UK wanted to limit the influx of workers from the rest of the EU. But that was mostly due to the fact that the UK has no citizen register and so is only able to control immigration at the time people enter the country. In other countries citizens from other EU countries have a limited time period to find a job and deliver proof to be not depending on social security payments. If they fail to do this, they loose their residency privilege.
 
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OA260
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Mon Dec 28, 2020 3:18 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
OA260 wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
Also with an EHIC card, iirc you get the same treatment as the locals.

How does state health care in the EU zone compare to the NHS?.


So nothing will change then.


Careful with claims like that!
Do we know how the financials behind this replacement card will work?

With the EHIC, any EU citizen came at the expense of the country where he was hospitalized.
Spain was for instance picking up a multi-million bill for Brits being hospitalized there each year as they fell ill or got injured during their stay there..
In future, it's very likely the Spanish government is going to simply send the bill for this over to the UK, just like it does with other third countries.
Has any cost been budgetted for this in next year's government budget? And how much is it?

The Turing scheme, which is to replace the Erasmus scheme for instance, will cost the UK some 200 million pounds, whereas before it was free.

And so it goes on a whole range of those Brexit replacement projects, in fact.


Spain could have claimed any monies due under the EHIC program so if they have not chosen to then that is their own admin / policy issues. Why did Spain not bill the UK ? Do you have a link from the Spanish government documents to back up the figures with actual facts? The UK pays Spain the most .


Box 5: Reciprocal healthcare reimbursements

The Department of Health and Social Care funds and administers reciprocal healthcare on behalf of the UK as a whole, liaising where appropriate with the NHS in England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. There are two primary mechanisms in place for the reimbursement of healthcare costs between EU/ EEA countries (and Switzerland):

• Actual costs—treatment within the temporary visitor category (carried out, for example, under the EHIC scheme) is billed on the basis of actual healthcare use.

• Average / fixed costs—costs per person, per month.

The majority of countries now bill only on the basis of actual healthcare costs. Only eight countries, including the UK, use average costs (although the UK uses actual costs for the temporary visitor category). However, the countries that the UK pays the most to—Spain and the Republic of Ireland—also use average costs.

In addition, the UK has several waiver agreements with individual EU/EEA countries, which involve the relinquishment of healthcare costs between Member States. Waiver agreements exist where they are considered mutually beneficial to ease the administrative burden. The UK’s waiver agreements are with Denmark, Estonia, Norway, Finland, Hungary and Malta.

http://brexitlegal.ie/wp-content/upload ... thcare.pdf
 
Reinhardt
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Mon Dec 28, 2020 4:33 pm

Kiwirob wrote:

A101 wrote:
No, a gloobal Britain that wants to be a highly dynamic and modern economy needs to completely free itself of EU rules and aim to perform on the global level. Singapore and other Asian Tiger states should be the role models.


The difference between the Asian tigers and the UK is they have populations who are prepared to work. Part of the reason why you found yourself in this pickle is because large numbers of you didn't want to work, immigrants were needed to fill all the vacant roles your citizens deemed beneath them. Then you had the audacity to complain about them taking your jobs!!


Spot on. As was shown when vegetables were left rotting in fields in the UK when farmers couldn't get Eastern Europeans in over the summer to pick them. A few hundred Brits turned up on day one, most never came back.

Thinking the UK can in any way take after Singapore and the 'Asian Tigers' is obsurdity. The economies are completely different, geographyically completely different, the workforce is completely different and most importantly ideologies are completely different.

We all know the pipedream of a Singapore on Thames with low taxes. Well that will be impossible a) unless there is a deal with the EU on financial services b) a population willing to accept lower taxes and lower levels of services - the UK has shown by it's past that it is not capable of delivering both and I don't think you'd win the next election promising it. It's also already lost trillions of Pounds of money to Frankfurt and Paris and jobs, and it won't come back.

Asian Tigers - give me a break. Taiwan - mid-high volume production of mid-ultra high end technologies. Hong Kong - highly educated, massive amount of services but about to suffer massive brain drain due to China's actions.

The UK has services, some farming, tiny amount of low end manufacturing and a decent level of high/ ultra high end tech manufacturing + pharma. Other Asian countries make textiles/ clothes. India has a growing educated population with massive numbers studying IT and programming.

The UK is being left behind on Education, opportunities (degraded by Brexit), a mis-conception of what it's citizens are capable of and willing to do and government after government being short sighted and not having competent, experienced persons leading departments. Until that changes (and there is no sign of this, it's got 100 times worse under this government) there will be no major shift in the UK's position in the world.

As was always the case, Brexit fixes nothing. What fixes EVERYTHING, is competant Government. The UK has monumental problems with structural key parts of it's society, from Education to Healthcare to infrastructure to povety. I'd suggest those things should be fixed before some pipe dream of a low tax European version of Singapore or Taiwan.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Mon Dec 28, 2020 5:06 pm

OA260 wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
Also with an EHIC card, iirc you get the same treatment as the locals.

How does state health care in the EU zone compare to the NHS?.


So nothing will change then. I can tell you that you would not want to be relying on that in some Southern European hospitals. I speak from experience. If you are leaving the UK you should have a proper private health cover with a reputable company. I have a annual Platinum cover and would not leave home without it even to EU countries. I would go so far as to say it should be a legal requirement for anyone entering a country. We have all seen the disasters of gofundme pages begging for donations to fly a sick person home or worse a dead body. The EHIC always only provided as basic emergency cover yet people fell into a false sense of security with it not knowing the implications should something serious happen to them in another EU country.


We agree that repatriation costs are a matter for travel insurance.

With that said I'm not clear on what the EHIC covers exactly, as I've never lived elsewhere. I've used it in a couple countries for emergency stuff.

Isn't it used by UK citizens living in Spain for all their healthcare, including chronic diseases ?
 
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OA260
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Mon Dec 28, 2020 5:27 pm

Aesma wrote:
OA260 wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
Also with an EHIC card, iirc you get the same treatment as the locals.

How does state health care in the EU zone compare to the NHS?.


So nothing will change then. I can tell you that you would not want to be relying on that in some Southern European hospitals. I speak from experience. If you are leaving the UK you should have a proper private health cover with a reputable company. I have a annual Platinum cover and would not leave home without it even to EU countries. I would go so far as to say it should be a legal requirement for anyone entering a country. We have all seen the disasters of gofundme pages begging for donations to fly a sick person home or worse a dead body. The EHIC always only provided as basic emergency cover yet people fell into a false sense of security with it not knowing the implications should something serious happen to them in another EU country.


We agree that repatriation costs are a matter for travel insurance.

With that said I'm not clear on what the EHIC covers exactly, as I've never lived elsewhere. I've used it in a couple countries for emergency stuff.

Isn't it used by UK citizens living in Spain for all their healthcare, including chronic diseases ?


That comes under the S1 if you are for example an old age pensioner living in Spain. Under this scheme the UK has paid out approximately £500 million a year to the countries where they are using the other EU countries health care system.


UK-funded healthcare: using an S1 form in Spain
You may be entitled to state healthcare paid for by the UK if you live in Spain and receive either:

a UK State Pension
some other ‘exportable benefits’

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/healthcare- ... ry-islands

So they are not a burden on the Spanish system , they own properties and pay local taxes. They contribute to the local economy.

EHIC is for those on short term holidays / stays .
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Mon Dec 28, 2020 6:37 pm

EU member states approve the preliminary Brexit deal. The Ambassadeurs from the member-states unanimously agree to approve the preliminary deal till February 28th. Tomorrow afternoon the official approval of the member states is expected. The EU parliament has till February 28th to approve the deal to make it a real deal. 2 months to deliberate on the 2.000 pages seems reasonable. On the UK side, it needs to be a bit more timely, the appropriate laws need to be passed before January 1st.

In Dutch

First hurdle taken.
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Mon Dec 28, 2020 7:48 pm

OA260 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
OA260 wrote:

So nothing will change then. I can tell you that you would not want to be relying on that in some Southern European hospitals. I speak from experience. If you are leaving the UK you should have a proper private health cover with a reputable company. I have a annual Platinum cover and would not leave home without it even to EU countries. I would go so far as to say it should be a legal requirement for anyone entering a country. We have all seen the disasters of gofundme pages begging for donations to fly a sick person home or worse a dead body. The EHIC always only provided as basic emergency cover yet people fell into a false sense of security with it not knowing the implications should something serious happen to them in another EU country.


We agree that repatriation costs are a matter for travel insurance.

With that said I'm not clear on what the EHIC covers exactly, as I've never lived elsewhere. I've used it in a couple countries for emergency stuff.

Isn't it used by UK citizens living in Spain for all their healthcare, including chronic diseases ?


That comes under the S1 if you are for example an old age pensioner living in Spain. Under this scheme the UK has paid out approximately £500 million a year to the countries where they are using the other EU countries health care system.


The EHIC is a card that gives EU citizens access to medically necessary, state-provided healthcare during a temporary stay in any of the 27 EU countries, Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway and Switzerland, under the same conditions and at the same cost (free in most countries) as people insured in that country.
https://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?ca ... &langId=en

The EHIC is there in case you're taken to a local hospital in an emergency situation while abroad and for a short time only, like for instance on a shopping trip across the border or on a brief holiday, not for retired/settled people, although many (Brits living under the sun) are known to rely on it because it's quite generous and they try to avoid to take expensive private insurance as they should.
The typical case of correct EHIC use is somebody slipping over his flip flops and needing a simple stitch up, or breaking his arm.
While it is good practice to have a private travel insurance for repatriation as well as a healthcare insurance should you need sudden complex healthcare, it's not legally required to have them and they won't be of much help in the simple cases mentioned above, yet these events are very frequent.
These costs -when occuring at home- are normally absorbed by the national health services, and when abroad they are absorbed by the local health service provider, even though the EHIC user is not a citizen (and thus not contributing to the budget) of the country where he's briefly hospitalized: the EHIC takes care of that.

Dutchy wrote:
EU member states approve the preliminary Brexit deal. The Ambassadeurs from the member-states unanimously agree to approve the preliminary deal till February 28th. Tomorrow afternoon the official approval of the member states is expected. The EU parliament has till February 28th to approve the deal to make it a real deal. 2 months to deliberate on the 2.000 pages seems reasonable. On the UK side, it needs to be a bit more timely, the appropriate laws need to be passed before January 1st.

In Dutch

First hurdle taken.


Without a single reservation to the outcome, thanks to the great work of M. Barnier who kept all 27 governments constantly updated throughout and always on the same page: the union was tested, but remained intact.

FWIW - the ambassadors to the EU of the 27 EU memberstates also approved the draft version of the EU-PRC future investment agreement which has been discussed since 2013 is is now nearing completion.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ium-europe
 
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Grizzly410
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:22 pm

OA260 wrote:
So they are not a burden on the Spanish system , they own properties and pay local taxes. They contribute to the local economy.

EHIC is for those on short term holidays / stays .


They are a burden in the sense that Brits were notoriously known to not register as resident in Spain (empadronamiento), not applying for NIE (ID like for non Spanish), thus not registering in the local health center through a S1.
I can understand why, having done all of this myself.
I know its anecdotal evidence, but for what its worth I can say my numerous British colleagues only rushed to do all this paperwork during the last couple of months. Despite they were living in Spain for five to TWENTY years.

This to say, while true in theory EHIC was of little use, in reality a non neglieable part of UK citizen in Spain was using it as their primary care.
And just to be clear, that's true for most of my German and French colleague too. But they happen to be less numerous and have shorter stay.
 
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OA260
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:33 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
While it is good practice to have a private travel insurance for repatriation as well as a healthcare insurance should you need sudden complex healthcare, it's not legally required to have them and they won't be of much help in the simple cases mentioned above, yet these events are very frequent.
These costs -when occuring at home- are normally absorbed by the national health services, and when abroad they are absorbed by the local health service provider, even though the EHIC user is not a citizen (and thus not contributing to the budget) of the country where he's briefly hospitalized: the EHIC takes care of that.



Actually the travel insurance is useful for even the minor issues. Anyone with a decent insurance policy will have one that carries a zero excess policy. There are cheap basic insurance covers out there but then again if the individual opts for such then they obviously do not value their health as much as those that ensure they have proper cover. Often in the Spanish and Greek resorts which is where many of these Summer issues happen to tourists the only realistic option is to attend a private medical clinic often called British or German clinics where they have staff that are multi lingual as opposed to a trip to a local state hospital where they have to wait sometimes hours and language barriers. So if you cut yourself or sprain your ankle you could be billed EUR100-200 . In this case a zero excess policy means that you pay nothing the insurance company will refund you fully upon claiming and submitting an invoice. Now having worked in Travel Insurance I know I have a head start from experience but always impress upon people to make sure they only rely on the EHIC as a little extra to their main insurance which will always holds more weight and gives peace of mind when it matters.

Also under EHIC rules as provided above Spain or any other EU member can bill for even these minor events should they provide such services to a tourist unless there is a bilateral agreement between them as stated above in my previous post where they forgo billing.
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:33 pm

Grizzly410 wrote:
OA260 wrote:
So they are not a burden on the Spanish system , they own properties and pay local taxes. They contribute to the local economy.

EHIC is for those on short term holidays / stays .


They are a burden in the sense that Brits were notoriously known to not register as resident in Spain (empadronamiento), not applying for NIE (ID like for non Spanish), thus not registering in the local health center through a S1.
I can understand why, having done all of this myself.
I know its anecdotal evidence, but for what its worth I can say my numerous British colleagues only rushed to do all this paperwork during the last couple of months. Despite they were living in Spain for five to TWENTY years.

This to say, while true in theory EHIC was of little use, in reality a non neglieable part of UK citizen in Spain was using it as their primary care.
And just to be clear, that's true for most of my German and French colleague too. But they happen to be less numerous and have shorter stay.


Indeed, and now all those newly registered Brits will suddenly appear on the radar of the national healthcare systems of the countries they happen to have settled in since a long time and these healthcare systems will systematically start to send the bills associated with routine healthcare for these residents back to the UK, hence my question: how much extra is budgetted by the government for this? As the Turing scheme, the Brexit replacement for the EU's Erasmus scheme shows, the costs with all these alternative solutions for Brits only is not to be underestimated.
Brexit is not a cost saving excercise for sure.
 
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:41 pm

Grizzly410 wrote:

They are a burden in the sense that Brits were notoriously known to not register as resident in Spain (empadronamiento), not applying for NIE (ID like for non Spanish), thus not registering in the local health center through a S1.
I can understand why, having done all of this myself.
I know its anecdotal evidence, but for what its worth I can say my numerous British colleagues only rushed to do all this paperwork during the last couple of months. Despite they were living in Spain for five to TWENTY years.

This to say, while true in theory EHIC was of little use, in reality a non neglieable part of UK citizen in Spain was using it as their primary care.
And just to be clear, that's true for most of my German and French colleague too. But they happen to be less numerous and have shorter stay.


This should have not been allowed to happen and to be honest as much as those UK citizens are to blame ( they are not the majority btw ) the Spanish government were obviously not chasing them up or imposing penalties which they could have done under national / local laws. While I have seen evidence of what you say in the Canary Islands I also know many who have done everything by the book and gone through a lot of red tape even before the Brexit word even existed.

If British nationals are forced to do what they were supposed to do then this is a good consequence. Maybe time to reel in those French and German citizens too albeit in less numbers.
 
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:46 pm

OA260 wrote:
Actually the travel insurance is useful for even the minor issues.

I agree, but as said, not everybody has it and it is often perceived as needless, for instance by people living in areas close to national borders:
A nice example is how Belgians often do their weekly grocery shopping in Lille France and hop across the border with The Netherlands for some fun shopping on a day off, for instance.
People generally don't see that as a 'holiday' and won't take a travel insurance for this, but the fact remains that when they break their ankle in a shopping mall 2km over the border, they'll be taken to a local hospital and some arrangement needs to be in place to cover the costs of their emergency health care.

OA260 wrote:
Also under EHIC rules as provided above Spain or any other EU member can bill for even these minor events should they provide such services to a tourist unless there is a bilateral agreement between them as stated above in my previous post where they forgo billing.


The rules make that possible indeed, but emergency services are cost free in most EU countries...
Not sure they even have a good understanding of exactly what and how much they should charge, since they have no embedded billing service at those ERs of course: it(s normally not needed since its a cost free service anyway, covered from the general provisions for basic healthcare.
Last edited by sabenapilot on Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:47 pm

sabenapilot wrote:

Indeed, and now all those newly registered Brits will suddenly appear on the radar of the national healthcare systems of the countries they happen to have settled in since a long time and these healthcare systems will systematically start to send the bills associated with routine healthcare for these residents back to the UK, hence my question: how much extra is budgetted by the government for this? As the Turing scheme, the Brexit replacement for the EU's Erasmus scheme shows, the costs with all these alternative solutions for Brits only is not to be underestimated.
Brexit is not a cost saving excercise for sure.


The question is how many do you claim are evading and how many S1's do you predict are effected? Only then can you determine the costs. Also do you have any facts and figures to back up the statements?

Also it works both ways Im sure Poland will start to get more bills in now the UK have made EU citizens register for settled status. Maybe its a leaking hole in many EU countries and therefore a overhaul of the whole system is due to make fraud and mistakes less likely.
 
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:53 pm

OA260 wrote:
The question is how many do you claim are evading and how many S1's do you predict are effected? Only then can you determine the costs. Also do you have any facts and figures to back up the statements?


No, I don't run a statistical office in my free time, sorry.
 
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:58 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
OA260 wrote:
The question is how many do you claim are evading and how many S1's do you predict are effected? Only then can you determine the costs. Also do you have any facts and figures to back up the statements?


No, I don't run a statistical office in my free time, sorry.


No need I often manage to provide links to back up my statements because otherwise anything else is just rumour and personal opinion. I think we can all agree facts are always better we have had 4 years of the latter.

I dont disagree with some of what you say but certainly there are some issues which as I stated work both ways. When you look at the huge numbers of EU citizens that currently reside in the UK from Spain Poland Greece France Belgium etc... Im sure they are not always doing the right thing either . EHIC fraud is an issue that needs solving but plenty of EU nationals of all countries partaking in it. Certainly not a British invention and now going forward will be almost wiped out.
 
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Mon Dec 28, 2020 9:07 pm

OA260 wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
OA260 wrote:
The question is how many do you claim are evading and how many S1's do you predict are effected? Only then can you determine the costs. Also do you have any facts and figures to back up the statements?


No, I don't run a statistical office in my free time, sorry.


No need I often manage to provide links to back up my statements because otherwise anything else is just rumour and personal opinion. I think we can all agree facts are always better we have had 4 years of the latter.


Which is why I've asked what budget the British government has reserved for the replacement scheme they intend to roll out.
Since that replacement scheme is not a rumour nor a personal opinion but a hard fact and I suppose a sensible government underpins its policies by a budget based on hard facts, the cost delta should be known.

Either it's costing more to replace the EHIC by what they are proposing and then the budget should reflect it somewhere,
or it will be a cost saving and then the budget should also reflect it (and it would probably have been tooted already as a great advantage),
unless of course the delta is neglectable, in which case it is a rather pointless thing to be willing to exit the EHIC as it will cause a lot of annoyance to a lot of people for zero benefit whatsoever.
 
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Mon Dec 28, 2020 9:14 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
OA260 wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:

No, I don't run a statistical office in my free time, sorry.


No need I often manage to provide links to back up my statements because otherwise anything else is just rumour and personal opinion. I think we can all agree facts are always better we have had 4 years of the latter.


Which is why I've asked what budget the British government has reserved for the replacement scheme they intend to roll out.
Since that replacement scheme is not a rumour nor a personal opinion but a hard fact and I suppose a sensible government underpins its policies by a budget based on hard facts, the cost delta should be known.

Either it's costing more to replace the EHIC by what they are proposing and then the budget should reflect it somewhere,
or it will be a cost saving and then the budget should also reflect it (and it would probably have been tooted already as a great advantage),
unless of course the delta is neglectable, in which case it is a rather pointless thing to be willing to exit the EHIC as it will cause a lot of annoyance to a lot of people for zero benefit whatsoever.


Excluding EHIC fees the UK government currently pay Approx 500 million a year in payments as stated above and in the document I posted earlier. ( long document but worth a read if you really want to know the ins and outs of the system and how it works ) . So lets say its double that and they have to pay another 500 million a year for unregistered I am sure it wont bankrupt the country. Then of course how much more will the UK be able to bill other EU countries for fraud. A drop in the ocean on the scale of things. As I said it might be a good time for the EU to overhaul the EHIC system too and close in on fraud as if what you say is true and a substantial amount of people are defrauding the system then surely the EU would not allow that to carry on? Either the numbers are over inflated or the Spanish health system is about to get a lottery injection ( pardon the pun ). ;)
 
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Mon Dec 28, 2020 9:39 pm

OA260 wrote:
So lets say its double that and they have to pay another 500 million a year for unregistered I am sure it wont bankrupt the country.


Surely not, but still: the promised dividend should come from somewhere, doesn't it?
Unless there's indeed no dividend, as some brexiteers now start to admit.

I've asked for it because I know there's no cost calculation made (or at least not to be found publically), by the British government about their EHIC replacement scheme, which proves to me it's once again a politically driven decision.

Just as the UK's exit from Erasmus, BTW, which will cost tens if not hundreds of milions extra trying to replicate what is had for free.
Turing is being sold as a global scheme in a way simular to all the nonsense spread about how Brexit will allow the UK to trade globally (as if it could not do so as a EU member), thus conveniently forgetting Erasmus is no longer limited to EU countries either...

There's often nothing underpinning decisions to exit certain non-political EU programs or agencies open to non-EU countries too, other than the dogmatic desire to fully break with the EU, regardless of the costs nor the disadvantages. I'm still waiting for Brexiteers to ask the FA to leave UEFA and join the AFC too. :)
Last edited by sabenapilot on Mon Dec 28, 2020 9:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Mon Dec 28, 2020 9:43 pm

OA260 wrote:
Seems despite being told otherwise UK citizen's will keep healthcare .


Britons to keep free healthcare access across Europe after Brexit through UK Global Health Insurance Card

Millions of Britons will still have access to free healthcare across Europe after the Brexit transition period ends.

The 27 million people with a European Health Insurance Card (EHIC) issued before the end of 2020 can still use it after January 1 until its expiry date.

In 2021, Britain will begin issuing a replacement to be called the UK Global Health Insurance Card.

This will allow state-provided medical treatment if people fall ill or have an accident in the EU, Switzerland, Norway, Iceland or Liechtenstein while on holiday, similar to the EHIC. It will cover chronic or existing illnesses, routine maternity care and emergency care.

The blue EHIC cards last up to five years, which means that some people could keep using theirs until 2025.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/scram ... -50k3k8p0f


So in the end Erasmus, EHIC will be replaced and negotiations starting ASAP...

UK music industry demands freedom of movement and so do financial industry.

Have I missed something?

I get a feeling that each of EU major projects now will be replaced by a UK bilateral equal solution with each of EU members. Am I correct?

Or will UK start negotiations with EU for making one solution for all EU members?

This sounds like UK is not very pleased with the Canada styled FTA after all?
 
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Mon Dec 28, 2020 9:53 pm

sabenapilot wrote:

There's often nothing underpinning decisions to exit certain non-political EU programs or agencies open to non-EU countries too, other than the dogmatic desire to fully break with the EU, regardless of the costs nor the disadvantages. I'm still waiting for Brexiteers to ask the FA to leave UEFA and join the AFC too. :)


To be honest Id rather the UK and EU work together on resolving the COVID crisis and climate change something that Ursula von der Leyen and Boris seem to be totally in harmony about. In fact maybe it was that joint cause that helped to ease the tensions.

People really do need to get over it and put Brexit behind them whatever way they voted. Whats done is done and only time will tell 5-10 years from now if it was worth it or not . Way too early to tell but at least some of the fears that remain voters were told would be scrapped on 1st January like roaming , health cover, taxes on Amazon purchases, planes grounded etc.. will currently not be an issue.

You can already see the rhetoric changing between London and Brussels and that is a good thing. Although I am sure as during years of membership there will be bumps along the way .
 
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Mon Dec 28, 2020 10:00 pm

olle wrote:
So in the end Erasmus, EHIC will be replaced and negotiations starting ASAP...

UK music industry demands freedom of movement and so do financial industry.

Have I missed something?


One which is quite important and hasn't received any attention so far is the UK's relation to Euratom.

That seperate European institution was also excited by the UK, although it was never mentioned in the Brexit campain and hardly anybody ever thought of it until the lettre triggering article 50 was delived by TM. In the summer of 2017 The House of Commons Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy Committee, questioned the legal necessity of leaving Euratom, yet it was argued that this would require – beyond the consent of the EU27 – amendment or even revocation of the Article 50 letter of March 2017, however.

Under the terms of the EU-UK Agreement, after first pulling out of Euratom at the end of January of this year, Britain will seek to become an associated country of all parts of Euratom as from next year again, similar to Switzerland since 2015.
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content ... 54&from=EN
 
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Mon Dec 28, 2020 10:03 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
The UK was always fine with 3 of the 4 freedoms (goods, services and capital), it just didn't want the 4th one (labour)


Ted Heath only ever sold joining the EEC as a trade agreement, never really telling the electorate what the real purpose of it was which is an every closed political union, and as with the treaty enhancements such as Maastricht/Lisbon the electorate did not having a say in it

sabenapilot wrote:

I think the reason BoJo signed it nevertheles is because of the fear for food shortages in the short run (the lesson of last week by the EU must have really opened quite some eyes)


Not quite, the trade barriers are going to be there irrespective of zero tariffs/ zero quota at the borders even if there where tariffs. Tariffs are paid electronically tariffs or no tariffs the impact would be the same

I just think it was the EU who need the zero tariffs/zero quota trade deal than more than the UK, I also think that BJ could have gotten a better deal on the financial aspect if he held his gumption on fishing. But as I said the deal is far from perfect

sabenapilot wrote:
And so to sell the fact the UK was with its back against the wall and had no other choice but to sign this FTA with the EU despite it being only advantageous to the EU, Brexiteers must find 'wins' in things which were already secured automatically by triggering article 50 and becoming a third country to the EU: basically the part on governance or by pointing out some things which won't be lost right away.


No far from being against the wall, theUK did have some very substantial wins on access to the single market without the EU insisting on the dynamic alignment role of the ECJ and so fourth, remember these were the EU red lines due to our close proximity, guess that all went out the window when Brussels realised just how much market share the EU would lose and other nations would eventually step up to the plate to replace EU market share


sabenapilot wrote:

The Turing scheme, which is to replace the Erasmus scheme for instance, will cost the UK some 200 million pounds, whereas before it was free.




Nothing is free someone has to pay for it. The current EU budget is €14.7 billion, the next budget is for approximately €30 billion. The EU said that the UK could still participate in the program for a fee, but no one has actually said if the fee is cheaper than Turing scheme, if everything was equal that budget for each party would be just over a billion each member,but we all not things are not equal in the EUthe UK being one of the net contributors to the EU budget out of the 28 at the time only 9 were net contributors


UK students using Erasmus+ to study abroad : 9,615
Non-UK students using Erasmus+ to study in UK : 18,702

UN figures apparently sow more UK students study in the US, CA, AU than they do in the EU

https://facts4eu.org/news/2019_jan_erasmus


sabenapilot wrote:
It's actually quite pathetic and very sobering: despite all the flag-waving and chest-thumping, the eye watering reality is the UK signs up to a deal with the EU which merely reconfirms its third party status (aka its sovereignty) already reestablished at the end of the transition period from article 50 in return for a wide open door for the EU which runs a massive trade surprlus with the UK, while at the same time tacitly committing the UK not to make its own rules too very different from those of the EU for all this import to be made as easy as possible,


Well it’s far better than being in close dynamic alignment and still having the EU keeping it’s trade surplus under protection, then Brexit would have been in vain.

The UK can still move far away from EU rules as it see fit. From what I have read the UK can actually lower its standards if it so desired with the only thing the EU can do is place tariffs on imports which the UK can do in kind

The UK exports to the EU have been in decline for some time or exports to non-EU countries have been increasing, it might not happen for 5-10 years but divergence is inevitable either by doing it ourselves our not following EU amendments
 
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Mon Dec 28, 2020 10:09 pm

Dutchy wrote:
OA260 wrote:
Seems despite being told otherwise UK citizen's will keep healthcare .


Is this because there has been a deal? Or would have this been the case even without a deal?


It would have to be done via agreement
 
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Mon Dec 28, 2020 10:10 pm

Just out of curiosity, is The Netherlands the only country where you can get Europe (or world) coverage in your ordinary health insurance? The EHIC card is very usefull as this is what hospitals and doctors in the EU seem to know and it facilitates easy access.

sabenapilot wrote:
I agree, but as said, not everybody has it and it is often perceived as needless, for instance by people living in areas close to national borders:


That's irrelevant as those people usually have it covered by their health insurance (at least on the Dutch side) and/or have a travel insurance policy which runs the entire year. Who would purchases travel insuarance per trip unless you go outside Europe (including Turkey) nowadays?
 
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Mon Dec 28, 2020 10:12 pm

OA260 wrote:
You can already see the rhetoric changing between London and Brussels and that is a good thing. Although I am sure as during years of membership there will be bumps along the way .


I think the rethoric from Brussels has always been extremely correct: "regret yet respect" is not exactly repulsive, is it?
Compare that to the scores of British officials and politicians who've been grossly comparing the EU to a fascist organisation or the USSR for God's sake...

The rethoric in the UK better changes indeed and quickly too, because quite frankly the way in which the UK government has behaved towards and spoken about what is for the foreseable future and by far the UK's most imporant trade and security partner is totally unacceptable! If anybody would speek that way about any other country, it would have been a major diplomatic incident and rightfully so. it needs to end, but I doubt it will be difficult to see old habbits die for some who've built their entire carreer and income on bitching about Europe. The tabloids too: will the papers by 5 pages thinner come next year, or what will they cry foul about?
 
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Mon Dec 28, 2020 10:13 pm

A101 wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
The UK was always fine with 3 of the 4 freedoms (goods, services and capital), it just didn't want the 4th one (labour)


Ted Heath only ever sold joining the EEC as a trade agreement, never really telling the electorate what the real purpose of it was which is an every closed political union, and as with the treaty enhancements such as Maastricht/Lisbon the electorate did not having a say in it

sabenapilot wrote:

I think the reason BoJo signed it nevertheles is because of the fear for food shortages in the short run (the lesson of last week by the EU must have really opened quite some eyes)


Not quite, the trade barriers are going to be there irrespective of zero tariffs/ zero quota at the borders even if there where tariffs. Tariffs are paid electronically tariffs or no tariffs the impact would be the same

I just think it was the EU who need the zero tariffs/zero quota trade deal than more than the UK, I also think that BJ could have gotten a better deal on the financial aspect if he held his gumption on fishing. But as I said the deal is far from perfect

sabenapilot wrote:
And so to sell the fact the UK was with its back against the wall and had no other choice but to sign this FTA with the EU despite it being only advantageous to the EU, Brexiteers must find 'wins' in things which were already secured automatically by triggering article 50 and becoming a third country to the EU: basically the part on governance or by pointing out some things which won't be lost right away.


No far from being against the wall, theUK did have some very substantial wins on access to the single market without the EU insisting on the dynamic alignment role of the ECJ and so fourth, remember these were the EU red lines due to our close proximity, guess that all went out the window when Brussels realised just how much market share the EU would lose and other nations would eventually step up to the plate to replace EU market share


sabenapilot wrote:

The Turing scheme, which is to replace the Erasmus scheme for instance, will cost the UK some 200 million pounds, whereas before it was free.




Nothing is free someone has to pay for it. The current EU budget is €14.7 billion, the next budget is for approximately €30 billion. The EU said that the UK could still participate in the program for a fee, but no one has actually said if the fee is cheaper than Turing scheme, if everything was equal that budget for each party would be just over a billion each member,but we all not things are not equal in the EUthe UK being one of the net contributors to the EU budget out of the 28 at the time only 9 were net contributors


UK students using Erasmus+ to study abroad : 9,615
Non-UK students using Erasmus+ to study in UK : 18,702

UN figures apparently sow more UK students study in the US, CA, AU than they do in the EU

https://facts4eu.org/news/2019_jan_erasmus


sabenapilot wrote:
It's actually quite pathetic and very sobering: despite all the flag-waving and chest-thumping, the eye watering reality is the UK signs up to a deal with the EU which merely reconfirms its third party status (aka its sovereignty) already reestablished at the end of the transition period from article 50 in return for a wide open door for the EU which runs a massive trade surprlus with the UK, while at the same time tacitly committing the UK not to make its own rules too very different from those of the EU for all this import to be made as easy as possible,


Well it’s far better than being in close dynamic alignment and still having the EU keeping it’s trade surplus under protection, then Brexit would have been in vain.

The UK can still move far away from EU rules as it see fit. From what I have read the UK can actually lower its standards if it so desired with the only thing the EU can do is place tariffs on imports which the UK can do in kind

The UK exports to the EU have been in decline for some time or exports to non-EU countries have been increasing, it might not happen for 5-10 years but divergence is inevitable either by doing it ourselves our not following EU amendments


Glad you see the great victories for the UK over the pesty EU, it is delusional, but if you want to trick yourself in believing that, nobody is stopping you. Still amazing that you still chant the old line: "they need us more, than we need them". Delusional at best.
 
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Mon Dec 28, 2020 10:19 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
OA260 wrote:
You can already see the rhetoric changing between London and Brussels and that is a good thing. Although I am sure as during years of membership there will be bumps along the way .


I think the rethoric from Brussels has always been extremely correct: "regret yet respect" is not exactly repulsive, is it?
Compare that to the scores of British officials and politicians who've been grossly comparing the EU to a fascist organisation or the USSR for God's sake...

The rethoric in the UK better changes indeed and quickly too, because quite frankly the way in which the UK government has behaved towards and spoken about what is for the foreseable future and by far the UK's most imporant trade and security partner is totally unacceptable! If anybody would speek that way about any other country, it would have been a major diplomatic incident and rightfully so. it needs to end, but I doubt it will be difficult to see old habbits die for some who've built their entire carreer and income on bitching about Europe. The tabloids too: will the papers by 5 pages thinner come next year, or what will they cry foul about?


Actually as an outsider I have seen it on both sides from ALL politicians including EU leaders / MEPs etc so again both sides are not blameless in rhetoric. I have seen tabloids from all over Europe with it also but most educated people use the likes of The Sun , Bild as toilet paper ;)
 
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Mon Dec 28, 2020 10:25 pm

LJ wrote:
Just out of curiosity, is The Netherlands the only country where you can get Europe (or world) coverage in your ordinary health insurance?


Don't know if the Netherlands is the only country in the world that has. such a scheme, but it is a bit more nuanced than that. What we have is an emergency treatment abroad for Dutch prices, anywhere in the world.
So when I travel in Europe - well after Covid of course -, I do not bother to get travel insurance, unless I am going to do something which is a bit more "dangerous", like skiing or mountain biking. If something goes wrong and I needed to be airlifted out, my insurance will not pay for that. Traveling outside of Europe, I generally get insurance, just to be sure, especially traveling to places like the states or Africa (private hospitals). But travel insurance is relatively cheap because of that, most is already covered.
The rationale, of course, is that you could get sick in the Netherlands and the insurance would have covered it. So why not for the same price when you are somewhere else in the world. But you pay yourself for any other cost, like getting you back to the Netherlands.
 
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Mon Dec 28, 2020 10:25 pm

Cabinet agrees €100m scheme to support agri-food sector

The Government has signed off on the post-Brexit trade deal following a specially convened Cabinet meeting this afternoon. Ministers also agreed a €100 million scheme to support the agri-food industry.

Ministers discussed the impact of Brexit on the agri-food and fisheries sectors and what measures were needed to support those industries.

The options discussed included a fleet tie-up scheme from the second quarter of 2021 as a short-term measure for fishermen and a permanent fleet decommissioning scheme to commence later next year.

Schemes to support economic diversification of coastal communities were also discussed.

https://amp.rte.ie/amp/1186681/



Taoiseach acknowledges 'severe impact' of Brexit deal during talks with fishing representatives

Industry groups reacted angrily to the terms of the trade agreement after they were announced last week.

The Taoiseach acknowledged the “severe impact” that the outcome of the Brexit negotiations would have on the industry and the disappointment expressed by the representative bodies during the discussions this afternoon.

www.thejournal.ie/taoiseach-fishing-org ... 4-Dec2020/



Brexit: Duty-free makes a come-back for travellers returning from Britain

New rules from January 1st will not apply to people coming from Northern Ireland

For the first time in more than 20 years people travelling to the State from British ports and airports will be able to load their luggage or their cars with tax-free tobacco, alcohol, perfumes and so-called luxury items once the new year bells chime in less than a week.

www.irishtimes.com/news/consumer/brexit ... 8?mode=amp
 
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Mon Dec 28, 2020 10:30 pm

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
OA260 wrote:
Seems despite being told otherwise UK citizen's will keep healthcare .


Is this because there has been a deal? Or would have this been the case even without a deal?


It would might have to be done via agreement


Fixed it for you.
 
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Mon Dec 28, 2020 10:34 pm

A101 wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
The UK was always fine with 3 of the 4 freedoms (goods, services and capital), it just didn't want the 4th one (labour)


Ted Heath only ever sold joining the EEC as a trade agreement, never really telling the electorate what the real purpose of it was which is an every closed political union, and as with the treaty enhancements such as Maastricht/Lisbon the electorate did not having a say in it


The interesting thing is, this misrepresentation went on for the next 40+ years or so, after which the Tories blamed the EU for being 'taken into a direction they didn't want to go'.
Reality is it's M. Thatcher who insisted on the Common market (=mutual recognition of national rules) to be transformed into a Single Market (=one multinational rule for all members)!
Is was the Tory party which has been fooling the UK citizens, as they have been pushing very hard for the EEC to first become the EG and then even the EU: the only thing they didn't like was the fact that it got an elected parliament and an commission who could take initiatives: in their view Europe should have remained gouverned by the national governments only, the idea behind it being that UK rules could then be enforced upon others.The opposite happened, with new compromise rules being drafted by sovereign European bodies, after which the political class in the UK felt humiliated and started their revolt against the 'bureaucrats' from Brussels (which ironically where not enough bureaucrat in their view), and found a way to sell it to a disenchanted population, tired from decade long austerity (imposed by the UK government, not the EU)

A101 wrote:
UN figures apparently sow more UK students study in the US, CA, AU than they do in the EU
https://facts4eu.org/news/2019_jan_erasmus

An educational exchange is also a cultural exchance, which does require some basic second language skills of the participating students, even if you can often follow the courses in English.
Second language skills of Brits are not exactly to be called optimal, hence the need to remain within the same linguistic culture, often serving as an echo chamber.
It explains why even highly intellectual people in the UK completely misread the EU all throughout these 4+ years of negotiating: lack of first hand sources in non-English speaking countries and a life long attitute of reasoning from a wrong point of view.
Last edited by sabenapilot on Mon Dec 28, 2020 10:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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OA260
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Mon Dec 28, 2020 10:39 pm

Biden team voices concern over forced labour issues in EU-China deal

The incoming administration of Joe Biden has voiced its concern about EU-China negotiations over a business investment agreement amid unease that it will not be tough enough on prohibiting forced labour in China.

www.irishtimes.com/news/world/us/biden- ... 0?mode=amp


Certainly human rights concerns over this new EU - China deal .
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Mon Dec 28, 2020 10:46 pm

OA260 wrote:
Biden team voices concern over forced labour issues in EU-China deal

The incoming administration of Joe Biden has voiced its concern about EU-China negotiations over a business investment agreement amid unease that it will not be tough enough on prohibiting forced labour in China.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/us ... 0?mode=amp

Certainly human rights concerns over this new EU - China deal .


It's a fact that this deal only gained speed once the UK left the table in Brussels, with HK and US sensitivities suddenly no longer playing such an important role any longer.

This business investment agreement with the PRC is the final building block still missing before a full blown FTA can be negotiated between the EU and the PRC, for which the mandate will soon be given, btw.
 
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OA260
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Mon Dec 28, 2020 10:49 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
OA260 wrote:
Biden team voices concern over forced labour issues in EU-China deal

The incoming administration of Joe Biden has voiced its concern about EU-China negotiations over a business investment agreement amid unease that it will not be tough enough on prohibiting forced labour in China.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/us ... 0?mode=amp

Certainly human rights concerns over this new EU - China deal .


It's a fact that this deal only gained speed once the UK left the table in Brussels, with HK and US sensitivities suddenly no longer playing such an important role any longer.

This business investment agreement with the PRC is the final building block still missing before a full blown FTA can be negotiated between the EU and the PRC, for which the mandate will soon be given, btw.


Indeed but at the price of human rights ? Seems slave labour and HK abuses pushed to the side .
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Mon Dec 28, 2020 10:55 pm

OA260 wrote:
Biden team voices concern over forced labour issues in EU-China deal

The incoming administration of Joe Biden has voiced its concern about EU-China negotiations over a business investment agreement amid unease that it will not be tough enough on prohibiting forced labour in China.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/us ... 0?mode=amp


Certainly human rights concerns over this new EU - China deal .


Off-topic, Britain hasn't been a member of the EU for almost 11 months now. But I agree that it decerves a threat of its own.
 
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OA260
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Mon Dec 28, 2020 10:58 pm

Dutchy wrote:
OA260 wrote:
Biden team voices concern over forced labour issues in EU-China deal

The incoming administration of Joe Biden has voiced its concern about EU-China negotiations over a business investment agreement amid unease that it will not be tough enough on prohibiting forced labour in China.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/us ... 0?mode=amp


Certainly human rights concerns over this new EU - China deal .


Off-topic, Britain hasn't been a member of the EU for almost 11 months now. But I agree that it decerves a threat of its own.


Actually I think it was mentioned in a thread somewhere that the UK would be free to do dodgy FTA’s with countries like Saudi Arabia and China ! But the EU has just done that . Very sad times for ethics it seems . Thats before you mention the new threats to the EU being actual members Poland and Hungary .
 
A101
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Mon Dec 28, 2020 11:08 pm

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Is this because there has been a deal? Or would have this been the case even without a deal?


It would might have to be done via agreement


Fixed it for you.


Don’t be so naive, we are talking intergovernmental cooperation across borders
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Mon Dec 28, 2020 11:16 pm

Yet will the UK only persue FTA with countries of unquestionable ethical status? I remember it has expressed the intend to join CPTTP, which sees quite a few imperfect democracties amongst its members, while the PRC is said to be considering joining too!

FWIW: it becomes a habit for the British government when it comes to issues related to Brexit and the alternatives pushed by it, but the government has still not conducted an assessment of the economic impact of joining CPTPP. Its most recent policy paper on the subject just gives figures for how much trade the UK does in the region already and what percentage of tariffs would be eliminated under the agreement – which says little about what benefits would actually accrue to the UK, let alone what competitive advantage the UK would gain over the EU, given the EU has already signed bilateral trade agreements of its own with all but 4 of the CPTTP members, while it is engaged in the process of negotiating bilateral trade agreements with 3 of those.

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org. ... rade-cptpp
Last edited by sabenapilot on Mon Dec 28, 2020 11:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 12545
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Mon Dec 28, 2020 11:16 pm

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:

It would might have to be done via agreement


Fixed it for you.


Don’t be so naive, we are talking intergovernmental cooperation across borders


Hey, you are the resident hardcore Brexiteer, thus all for no cooperation between nations/blocks. This is fine, but it is quite remarkable for someone like you to take for granted that this right would be given to the UK. I thought that logic was out the window with Brexiteers.
 
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Dutchy
Topic Author
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Mon Dec 28, 2020 11:24 pm

OA260 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
OA260 wrote:
Biden team voices concern over forced labour issues in EU-China deal

The incoming administration of Joe Biden has voiced its concern about EU-China negotiations over a business investment agreement amid unease that it will not be tough enough on prohibiting forced labour in China.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/us ... 0?mode=amp


Certainly human rights concerns over this new EU - China deal .


Off-topic, Britain hasn't been a member of the EU for almost 11 months now. But I agree that it decerves a threat of its own.


Actually I think it was mentioned in a thread somewhere that the UK would be free to do dodgy FTA’s with countries like Saudi Arabia and China ! But the EU has just done that . Very sad times for ethics it seems . Thats before you mention the new threats to the EU being actual members Poland and Hungary .


Well, Brexiteers itself mentioned China a number of times to have a trade deal with. The question is, if the UK strikes a deal with China what will be in it in regards to human rights. Hungary and Poland deserve its own threat, nothing to do with Brexit. I can't talk about the EU-China proposed deal, because I do not know what is in it.

Hungary and Poland's Ambassadeurs voted in favor of the provitional deal and that's about it.
 
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OA260
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Mon Dec 28, 2020 11:28 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
Yet will the UK only persue FTA with countries of unquestionable ethical status? I remember it has expressed the intend to join CPTTP, which sees quite a few imperfect democracties amongst its members, while the PRC is said to be considering joining too!


Indeed but then why were people posting saying that the UK could do “dodgy” deals and implying that the EU was a beacon of human rights and defender of freedoms then yet turn a blind eye when they support the slave trade and abuses of their own citizens. So basically the fact is that the EU and UK are as bad as each other .

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