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WIederling
Posts: 10041
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Thu Dec 31, 2020 10:47 am

A101 wrote:
Really when the alternative is following withdrawal is to re-enter vassalage under trade terms is acceptable :banghead:


never could wrap my mind around it:

EU is "unisono voting".
Nothing can happen to a member nation that they did not agree to.
What irked (select) Brits was not getting their "extra soup" approved.
 
LJ
Posts: 5468
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Thu Dec 31, 2020 10:49 am

A101 wrote:
Actually i dont see the UK moving to far from current standards if the EU where to grant equivalency, what i do see is a trade agreement similar to this and Japan


It will not deviate from the standards and regulation it agreed to follow as I doubt the UK service would like to give up on participating in all those UN and EU working groups making those standards and regulations. In the end this whole Brexit story is Yes Minister in real life.
 
A101
Posts: 2577
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Thu Dec 31, 2020 10:51 am

LJ wrote:
A101 wrote:
LJ wrote:

Maybe you should talk to Boris Johnson himself. He seems to think that there will be no new trade barriers (just "change").

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-55486081


One could argue change is the customs checks on goods, but the actual free trade will continue. Free trade is a largely policy under which governments or in the case of the EU organisation impose absolutely no tariffs, taxes, or duties on imports, or quotas on imports/exports which the EU/UK trade agreement does from what I have read.


But I understand what you what you are getting at


The quotes posted on a blog are more clear:

Thus, even in parliament, introducing the Bill, Johnson manages to bury the truth in a barrage of fluff. “In less than 48 hours we will leave the EU single market and the customs union as we promised”, he says, then declaring: “British exporters will not face a sudden thicket of trade barriers, but rather, for the first time in the history of EU agreements, zero tariffs and zero quotas”.


https://www.turbulenttimes.co.uk/news/brexit/brexit-a-sense-of-stupidity/

Or are you now saying that the word "sudden" means that the exporters should have realized this prior to the agreement (relying on information from the UK government which wasn't provided)?

BTW there will not be any free trade in all goods. Some goods cannot be exported to the EU as of tomorrow thus even that statement is incorrect (though any Brexiteer will argue that this is a tiny part of the total trade). Then again, he needed to sell his agreement. Now he's done that, he can start telling the truth.



if removing nation from the CU/SM and you didn't think there would be customs barriers in the future obviously no one was paying attention on how trade is conducted with non eu members
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 1164
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Thu Dec 31, 2020 10:55 am

Found this on Twitter. Is it correct?

Referendum results ignored by EU:
Denmark 1992
Ireland 2001
Netherlands 2005
France 2005
Ireland 2008
Iceland 2010, 2011
Greece 2015

Referendums delivered:
UK 2016.
 
JJJ
Posts: 4118
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Thu Dec 31, 2020 11:57 am

LJ wrote:
A101 wrote:
LJ wrote:

Maybe you should talk to Boris Johnson himself. He seems to think that there will be no new trade barriers (just "change").

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-55486081


One could argue change is the customs checks on goods, but the actual free trade will continue. Free trade is a largely policy under which governments or in the case of the EU organisation impose absolutely no tariffs, taxes, or duties on imports, or quotas on imports/exports which the EU/UK trade agreement does from what I have read.


But I understand what you what you are getting at


The quotes posted on a blog are more clear:

Thus, even in parliament, introducing the Bill, Johnson manages to bury the truth in a barrage of fluff. “In less than 48 hours we will leave the EU single market and the customs union as we promised”, he says, then declaring: “British exporters will not face a sudden thicket of trade barriers, but rather, for the first time in the history of EU agreements, zero tariffs and zero quotas”.


https://www.turbulenttimes.co.uk/news/brexit/brexit-a-sense-of-stupidity/

Or are you now saying that the word "sudden" means that the exporters should have realized this prior to the agreement (relying on information from the UK government which wasn't provided)?

BTW there will not be any free trade in all goods. Some goods cannot be exported to the EU as of tomorrow thus even that statement is incorrect (though any Brexiteer will argue that this is a tiny part of the total trade). Then again, he needed to sell his agreement. Now he's done that, he can start telling the truth.


And part of the blame lies on the choice of words.

"Free Trade" can mean an infinite number of things, because free is effectively a sliding scale of barriers and there is no definite point before and after trade is free.

Hats off to Boris for selling a deal in goods only (which benefits the EU the most) as some sort of victory, though.
 
JJJ
Posts: 4118
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Thu Dec 31, 2020 11:59 am

noviorbis77 wrote:
Found this on Twitter. Is it correct?


Short answer: it's not.

You can find the long answer by googling the relevant cases individually.
 
A101
Posts: 2577
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:09 pm

JJJ wrote:
LJ wrote:
A101 wrote:

One could argue change is the customs checks on goods, but the actual free trade will continue. Free trade is a largely policy under which governments or in the case of the EU organisation impose absolutely no tariffs, taxes, or duties on imports, or quotas on imports/exports which the EU/UK trade agreement does from what I have read.


But I understand what you what you are getting at


The quotes posted on a blog are more clear:

Thus, even in parliament, introducing the Bill, Johnson manages to bury the truth in a barrage of fluff. “In less than 48 hours we will leave the EU single market and the customs union as we promised”, he says, then declaring: “British exporters will not face a sudden thicket of trade barriers, but rather, for the first time in the history of EU agreements, zero tariffs and zero quotas”.


https://www.turbulenttimes.co.uk/news/brexit/brexit-a-sense-of-stupidity/

Or are you now saying that the word "sudden" means that the exporters should have realized this prior to the agreement (relying on information from the UK government which wasn't provided)?

BTW there will not be any free trade in all goods. Some goods cannot be exported to the EU as of tomorrow thus even that statement is incorrect (though any Brexiteer will argue that this is a tiny part of the total trade). Then again, he needed to sell his agreement. Now he's done that, he can start telling the truth.


And part of the blame lies on the choice of words.

"Free Trade" can mean an infinite number of things, because free is effectively a sliding scale of barriers and there is no definite point before and after trade is free.

Hats off to Boris for selling a deal in goods only (which benefits the EU the most) as some sort of victory, though.


As i said before an MOU is to be in place for an agreement on financial service to be concluded by by March 2021, more importantly more people are employed in the goods export than financial service in the UK so really that is the most transparent sector to have settled
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:37 pm

A101 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
LJ wrote:

The quotes posted on a blog are more clear:

Thus, even in parliament, introducing the Bill, Johnson manages to bury the truth in a barrage of fluff. “In less than 48 hours we will leave the EU single market and the customs union as we promised”, he says, then declaring: “British exporters will not face a sudden thicket of trade barriers, but rather, for the first time in the history of EU agreements, zero tariffs and zero quotas”.


https://www.turbulenttimes.co.uk/news/brexit/brexit-a-sense-of-stupidity/

Or are you now saying that the word "sudden" means that the exporters should have realized this prior to the agreement (relying on information from the UK government which wasn't provided)?

BTW there will not be any free trade in all goods. Some goods cannot be exported to the EU as of tomorrow thus even that statement is incorrect (though any Brexiteer will argue that this is a tiny part of the total trade). Then again, he needed to sell his agreement. Now he's done that, he can start telling the truth.


And part of the blame lies on the choice of words.

"Free Trade" can mean an infinite number of things, because free is effectively a sliding scale of barriers and there is no definite point before and after trade is free.

Hats off to Boris for selling a deal in goods only (which benefits the EU the most) as some sort of victory, though.


As i said before an MOU is to be in place for an agreement on financial service to be concluded by by March 2021, more importantly more people are employed in the goods export than financial service in the UK so really that is the most transparent sector to have settled


An agreement on what terms? Of course these days you can sign anything and hail it as a victory, so I'm quite sure Boris will yell victory at the top of his lungs while slowly walking back the goalposts.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:49 pm

JJJ wrote:
A101 wrote:
JJJ wrote:

And part of the blame lies on the choice of words.

"Free Trade" can mean an infinite number of things, because free is effectively a sliding scale of barriers and there is no definite point before and after trade is free.

Hats off to Boris for selling a deal in goods only (which benefits the EU the most) as some sort of victory, though.


As i said before an MOU is to be in place for an agreement on financial service to be concluded by by March 2021, more importantly more people are employed in the goods export than financial service in the UK so really that is the most transparent sector to have settled


An agreement on what terms? Of course these days you can sign anything and hail it as a victory, so I'm quite sure Boris will yell victory at the top of his lungs while slowly walking back the goalposts.



Don’t know yet still to be agreed they reckon by Q1
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 3713
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Thu Dec 31, 2020 1:16 pm

Meanwhile BoJo's father is applying for French citizenship.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-brita ... KKBN2950VV
 
WIederling
Posts: 10041
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Thu Dec 31, 2020 1:18 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
Meanwhile BoJo's father is applying for French citizenship.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-brita ... KKBN2950VV


Outch!
 
94717
Posts: 2789
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Thu Dec 31, 2020 1:21 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Found this on Twitter. Is it correct?

Referendum results ignored by EU:
Denmark 1992
Ireland 2001
Netherlands 2005
France 2005
Ireland 2008
Iceland 2010, 2011
Greece 2015

Referendums delivered:
UK 2016.


Sweden voted no to Euro and is still not part...
 
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OA260
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Thu Dec 31, 2020 1:28 pm

Seems a deal in principle is being reported in Gibraltar. FRONTEX will be initially placed for 4 years in charge.
Last edited by OA260 on Thu Dec 31, 2020 1:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Thu Dec 31, 2020 1:30 pm

A101 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
A101 wrote:

As i said before an MOU is to be in place for an agreement on financial service to be concluded by by March 2021, more importantly more people are employed in the goods export than financial service in the UK so really that is the most transparent sector to have settled


An agreement on what terms? Of course these days you can sign anything and hail it as a victory, so I'm quite sure Boris will yell victory at the top of his lungs while slowly walking back the goalposts.



Don’t know yet still to be agreed they reckon by Q1


My point precisely.
 
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Aesma
Posts: 14851
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Thu Dec 31, 2020 1:49 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Found this on Twitter. Is it correct?

Referendum results ignored by EU:
Denmark 1992
Ireland 2001
Netherlands 2005
France 2005
Ireland 2008
Iceland 2010, 2011
Greece 2015

Referendums delivered:
UK 2016.


No. For example in 2005 the EU constitution was abandoned as a result of the votes in France and the Netherlands. People voted against it, it was abandoned.

Some argue the results were ignored because of the treaty of Lisbon, but that's the problem with voting no to a referendum : you're not voting for something else.

It's also easy to argue that the Brexit referendum wasn't delivered on at all, 90% of the promises made during the campaign were abandoned along the way.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Thu Dec 31, 2020 1:53 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
Meanwhile BoJo's father is applying for French citizenship.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-brita ... KKBN2950VV


His mother was French so it's just a matter of asking for it. He was a remainer so it's not hypocrisy either.
 
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OA260
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Thu Dec 31, 2020 2:05 pm

Britain and Spain have reached an initial agreement over Gibraltar's post-Brexit status, Spain's foreign minister has said.

Under the deal the territory will remain part of European Union agreements such as the Schengen free movement area, Arancha Gonzalez Laya told reporters.


http://news.sky.com/story/britain-and-s ... s-12176376
 
94717
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Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Thu Dec 31, 2020 2:13 pm

OA260 wrote:
Britain and Spain have reached an initial agreement over Gibraltar's post-Brexit status, Spain's foreign minister has said.

Under the deal the territory will remain part of European Union agreements such as the Schengen free movement area, Arancha Gonzalez Laya told reporters.


http://news.sky.com/story/britain-and-s ... s-12176376


OK; Joining Schengen the UK territory will make UK taking back control?

So we have a real situation now that in less then 2 years UK cotizen will need to pre register in ETIAS to go to Gibraltar?

https://www.etiasvisa.com/etias-news/et ... y-end-2022
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Thu Dec 31, 2020 3:07 pm

OA260 wrote:
Britain and Spain have reached an initial agreement over Gibraltar's post-Brexit status, Spain's foreign minister has said.

Under the deal the territory will remain part of European Union agreements such as the Schengen free movement area, Arancha Gonzalez Laya told reporters.


http://news.sky.com/story/britain-and-s ... s-12176376


Good news and very pragmatic approach by both parties, Gibraltar and Spain/EU.

Will be interesting to see the practicalities:
Border between Gibraltar and Spain disappears?
British border officers replaced by EU officers at the sea and airport terminals?
ETIAS registration needed for Brits visiting a British territory?
Limitations on the duration of stay for Brits in Gibraltar, whereas EU citizens have full FOM?
Burgondy passports again for Gibraltarese Brits, to complement the VIP marking 'GIBRALTAR' on it, pointing out they are the only British passport holders which will not have to apply for an ETIAS authorisation?
In futute 2 classes of British citizens, those from Gibraltar who are ETIAS expepted to travel around Europe, those from NI who can apply for Irish passports and can make use of many of the EU perks (Erasmus will continue for NI universities, for instance), and then the other ones from GB who'll loose everyting..
The Scotts must really feel robbed by their English fellow citizens, because their were the biggest remain voting nation within the UK and yet they are the only ones completely ignored.
I think the 'minister for the Union' will have some explaining to do. ;)
Last edited by sabenapilot on Thu Dec 31, 2020 3:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Jayafe
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Thu Dec 31, 2020 3:12 pm

The “initial implementention” is to last maximum 6 months, using Schengen comprehensive policies for these situations (gbt. Dixit). The whole current fence will be gone during that period. After that, full passpoport/visa checks for uk visitors during at least 4 years of Frontex control (reporting to Spanish authorities). Status after that is unclear, but it’s likely be Spanish customs deployed at the airport and port. A stolen rock becoming closer to be recovered.

Link (Spanish):

https://elpais.com/espana/2020-12-31/es ... altar.html


Welcome to the NewUk:

NI: closer to IE due to the GFA and a border across the Irish Sea. Effectively “brino” in the economic scope.
Scotland: (rightfully) claiming independence through a 2nd referendum, once the English threat of leaving the EU hada been voided by Brexit itself.
Wakes: Looking confused, watching the grass grow.
Gibraltar: Part of Schengen, requiring Passport checks and tourist visas for Uk citizens (and not for EU citizens). Some applies to goods, unclear in services (although most of the gaming industry has already relocated, mostly to Malta).

Such a way of taking back Uk borders control. Can’t believe how someone can’t be proud of the outcome so far. More fun to come down the road....
Last edited by Jayafe on Thu Dec 31, 2020 3:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
94717
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Thu Dec 31, 2020 3:13 pm

Gibraltar citizens will in practice become EU / Schengen Citizen. Will they get EHIC cards as well?

So now I see a future where a UK citizen can become resident in Gibraltar and get Schengen citizen and freedom of movement inside EU.

Prices of Gibraltar properties increased today?
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Thu Dec 31, 2020 3:19 pm

Jayafe wrote:
The “initial implementention” is to last maximum 6 months, using Schengen comprehensive policies for these situations (gbt. Dixit). The whole current fence will be gone during that period. After that, full passpoport/visa checks for uk visitors during at least 4 years of Frontex control (reporting to Spanish authorities). Status after that is unclear, but it’s likely be Spanish customs deployed at the airport and port. A stolen rock becoming closer to be recovered.

Link (Spanish):

https://elpais.com/espana/2020-12-31/es ... altar.html


:eyepopping:

The Uk might just give Gibraltar to Spain then, with some sort of an agreement to let the Royal Navy use the harbour: as both are NATO partners, that should not be a problem.

Anybody seeing a second referendum coming in the rock in 4 years, as part of the final settlement?

Brexit inceasingly turns out to be nothing but emply rethoric to accompany nationalistic flag waving, while the country is in fact slowly being dismantled from within.
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Thu Dec 31, 2020 3:20 pm

 
User avatar
Jayafe
Posts: 1229
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Thu Dec 31, 2020 3:23 pm

olle wrote:
Gibraltar citizens will in practice become EU / Schengen Citizen. Will they get EHIC cards as well?

So now I see a future where a UK citizen can become resident in Gibraltar and get Schengen citizen and freedom of movement inside EU.

Prices of Gibraltar properties increased today?


Unrelated topics. Schengen and EU are different things. As you can see ROI is not part of Schengen and enjoys EHIC (same as uk did before). The loophole does not exists.

No change on that, neither on real state prices, which haven’t been exactly rocketed lately.
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 3713
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Thu Dec 31, 2020 3:26 pm

olle wrote:
So now I see a future where a UK citizen can become resident in Gibraltar and get Schengen citizen and freedom of movement inside EU.


Interesting remark:
At the very least, FOM within the UK will have to be restricted as a consequence of this agreement and I guess the British Nationality Act will have to be reviewed by the UK too, all to make this agreement possible...
Oh no wait: the UK is sovereign as from tomorrow and doesn't take instructions from the EU any longer on what to vote into law, right?
Now that didn't take long, did it?
;-)
 
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OA260
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Thu Dec 31, 2020 3:30 pm

Jayafe wrote:
Status after that is unclear, but it’s likely be Spanish customs deployed at the airport and port. A stolen rock becoming closer to be recovered.

.


Im sure Morocco are looking at this with hope for their property also ;)
 
94717
Posts: 2789
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Thu Dec 31, 2020 3:46 pm

Jayafe wrote:
The “initial implementention” is to last maximum 6 months, using Schengen comprehensive policies for these situations (gbt. Dixit). The whole current fence will be gone during that period. After that, full passpoport/visa checks for uk visitors during at least 4 years of Frontex control (reporting to Spanish authorities). Status after that is unclear, but it’s likely be Spanish customs deployed at the airport and port. A stolen rock becoming closer to be recovered.

Link (Spanish):

https://elpais.com/espana/2020-12-31/es ... altar.html


Welcome to the NewUk:

NI: closer to IE due to the GFA and a border across the Irish Sea. Effectively “brino” in the economic scope.
Scotland: (rightfully) claiming independence through a 2nd referendum, once the English threat of leaving the EU hada been voided by Brexit itself.
Wakes: Looking confused, watching the grass grow.
Gibraltar: Part of Schengen, requiring Passport checks and tourist visas for Uk citizens (and not for EU citizens). Some applies to goods, unclear in services (although most of the gaming industry has already relocated, mostly to Malta).

Such a way of taking back Uk borders control. Can’t believe how someone can’t be proud of the outcome so far. More fun to come down the road....


The "El Pais" is telling us a lot;

As explained by the head of Spanish diplomacy at a press conference from La Moncloa, Gibraltar will join Schengen, the European area of ​​free movement made up of 26 countries (22 EU countries, plus Norway, Switzerland, Iceland and Liechtenstein) , so the border of the colony will stop being in La Verja to be located in its port and airport. Those who enter Gibraltar from Spanish territory will not need a passport, but the British who want to travel to their colony will, since the United Kingdom is not part of Schengen.

During the so-called “implementation period”, which will last four years, controls at the Gibraltarian port and airport will be carried out by the European Border Agency (Frontex), but Spain will be responsible for ensuring that Schengen regulations are complied with in the Rock. This means that the European agents will have to account to the Spanish authorities of the people who are allowed to enter the colony and of the visa policy.
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 3713
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Thu Dec 31, 2020 3:47 pm

OA260 wrote:
Jayafe wrote:
Status after that is unclear, but it’s likely be Spanish customs deployed at the airport and port. A stolen rock becoming closer to be recovered.

.


Im sure Morocco are looking at this with hope for their property also ;)


The day Spain makes a stategic political blunder like the UK did with Brexit, who knows?
Disputed territories often change hands during moments of great weakness of the one holding it until then, and it's undeniable the UK is at present very weak, with bits and parts being all but picked off the Union, be it in its North (NI) or its South (Gibraltar)...
All of this should be of great concern to unionists, because the Scottish independence case is only helped by it, both by giving fuel to the general feeling of being second class citizens since they're now the only Brits denied their own escape from the consequences of Brexit for which they didn't vote, as well by as a futher clue the Union is being dismembered anyway, so why still limp on together with it. Moderate Scotts wich were sitting on the fence when it came to independence are given ever more reasons to just go with the mainstream, which is now clearly pro independence at 58% (i.e. way above the margin of error of the polls).

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/supp ... -ffhq7dwq5
Last edited by sabenapilot on Thu Dec 31, 2020 3:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Thu Dec 31, 2020 3:49 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
Anybody seeing a second referendum coming in the rock in 4 years, as part of the final settlement?

Funnily enough I think if/when another referendum is done in Gibraltar, the citizens will still vote to remain part of the UK rather than merge with Spain.

Tugg
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 3713
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Thu Dec 31, 2020 3:58 pm

Tugger wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
Anybody seeing a second referendum coming in the rock in 4 years, as part of the final settlement?

Funnily enough I think if/when another referendum is done in Gibraltar, the citizens will still vote to remain part of the UK rather than merge with Spain.

Tugg


I think we could see it become a fully sovereign micro-nation one day, just like Malta.
That was once (proposed to be) far more intergrated in the UK than Gibraltar ever was, BTW.

First a referendum on fully joining the UK:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1956_Malt ... referendum
(won but not implemented due to unexpected problems with the practical implementation)

And then a decade later, a full blown indiref:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1964_Malt ... referendum
(again won, and off went Malta)
 
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OA260
Posts: 25769
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Thu Dec 31, 2020 4:03 pm

Tugger wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
Anybody seeing a second referendum coming in the rock in 4 years, as part of the final settlement?

Funnily enough I think if/when another referendum is done in Gibraltar, the citizens will still vote to remain part of the UK rather than merge with Spain.

Tugg


Actually your right. Im sure the EU would recognise the democratic will of the people to stay British if they wanted to which they do. Funny I saw an interview on CNN of Spanish workers in Gibraltar who cross everyday. They said they wanted it to stay British too as their employers were trustworthy and paid them a proper wage. Something they said they didnt get back on the Spanish side in their previous jobs. They said they had better workers rights and were treated better. I hear that from Spanish friends of mine too.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Thu Dec 31, 2020 4:06 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
Tugger wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
Anybody seeing a second referendum coming in the rock in 4 years, as part of the final settlement?

Funnily enough I think if/when another referendum is done in Gibraltar, the citizens will still vote to remain part of the UK rather than merge with Spain.

Tugg


I think we could see it become a fully sovereign micro-nation one day, just like Malta.
That was once (proposed to be) far more intergrated in the UK than Gibraltar ever was, BTW.

First a referendum on fully joining the UK:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1956_Malt ... referendum
(won but not implemented due to unexpected problems with the practical implementation)

And then a decade later, a full blown indiref:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1964_Malt ... referendum
(again won, and off went Malta)

Yes, I was thinking about that as I posted and agree that if real independence were offered that might be possible. But the more I thought about it the more I think the locals would not want to have to deal with all the "creation of government" and taxes and direct relations etc. that would be needed to support such and will instead just want to remain "as is".

Tugg
Last edited by Tugger on Thu Dec 31, 2020 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Thu Dec 31, 2020 4:09 pm

In a first sign of which way the wind will blow whenever there's a conflict between EU and (new) UK legislation, Britain’s financial market watchdog eased restrictions on cross-border derivatives trading in a move to calm fears of market turbulence just hours before the Brexit transition period ends The Financial Conduct Authority said Thursday evening it had acted to resolve conflicting European Union and U.K. laws that threatened a $200 billion-a-day market in London. With the EU refusing to grant equivalence to the U.K. market to smooth cross-border transactions, the FCA said it had altered its rules on a temporary basis and review them by the end of March.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ium-europe

The notorious Brussels effect at work, already.
 
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OA260
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Thu Dec 31, 2020 4:15 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
Tugger wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
Anybody seeing a second referendum coming in the rock in 4 years, as part of the final settlement?

Funnily enough I think if/when another referendum is done in Gibraltar, the citizens will still vote to remain part of the UK rather than merge with Spain.

Tugg


I think we could see it become a fully sovereign micro-nation one day, just like Malta.
That was once (proposed to be) far more intergrated in the UK than Gibraltar ever was, BTW.

First a referendum on fully joining the UK:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1956_Malt ... referendum
(won but not implemented due to unexpected problems with the practical implementation)

And then a decade later, a full blown indiref:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1964_Malt ... referendum
(again won, and off went Malta)


If you are comparing the situation in Malta and the culture to that of Gibraltarians you obviously dont know the two as much as I do. Its two very different situations and the Maltese were always very independently minded but held a close relationship with the UK and still do. Gibraltarians are passionately British and there is nothing to suggest that this will change. This is actually a win win for them. Spain would do well to keep in mind that everytime they push the Gibraltar issue they reinforce the status of it. So Spain may have a role to play in the FRONTEX Schengen border but thats about it. Its for Spain to prove that they can be trusted with this new situation.
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Thu Dec 31, 2020 4:20 pm

Tugger wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Funnily enough I think if/when another referendum is done in Gibraltar, the citizens will still vote to remain part of the UK rather than merge with Spain.

Tugg


I think we could see it become a fully sovereign micro-nation one day, just like Malta.
That was once (proposed to be) far more intergrated in the UK than Gibraltar ever was, BTW.

First a referendum on fully joining the UK:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1956_Malt ... referendum
(won but not implemented due to unexpected problems with the practical implementation)

And then a decade later, a full blown indiref:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1964_Malt ... referendum
(again won, and off went Malta)

Yes, I was thinking about hat as I posted and agree that if real independence were offered that might be possible. But the more I thought about it the more I think the locals would not want to have to deal with all the "creation of government" and taxes and direct relations etc. that would be needed to support such and will instead just want to remain "as is".

Tugg


The thing is Gibraltar has been busy setting up self governance since some time, with an own government headed by a Chief Minister as the PM is called, largely responsible for all 'domestic' affairs including its own budget. Other than foreign affairs and defence, the UK doesn't do much anyway.

https://www.gibraltar.gov.gi/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_of_Gibraltar

the step to independence would not be so big in fact, and they could always retain the Queen as head of state, just like so many other countries around the world have (temporarily) done.

Of cours, the problem is the EU's institutions are not ready (yet) to accept micronations smaller than Malta as full EU members, which is why very small countries like Andorra, Monaco and San Marino are officially still outside the EU, although in practice they are almost as good as in it too.. The EU is currently working on a single framework to replace all the different treaties, arrangements and bilaterals between these tiny countries and the neighbouring EU member with these micronations with the aim to bring them under one single regulatory umbrella too.
https://www.consilium.europa.eu/uedocs/ ... 146317.pdf
 
94717
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Thu Dec 31, 2020 4:21 pm

Could the solution for Scotland become something similar to NI or Gibraltar?
 
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OA260
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Thu Dec 31, 2020 4:58 pm

olle wrote:
Could the solution for Scotland become something similar to NI or Gibraltar?



Probably not :

''After over 40 years of unfettered market access, the EU accounts for just 21 per cent of Scotland’s exports compared to 60 per cent to the rest of the UK.''

www.spectator.co.uk/article/leaving-the ... brexit/amp
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Thu Dec 31, 2020 5:03 pm

Statistics... How much of the scotland exports goes thru england to the EU and are accounted as england export? :)
 
WIederling
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Thu Dec 31, 2020 5:10 pm

olle wrote:
OA260 wrote:
Britain and Spain have reached an initial agreement over Gibraltar's post-Brexit status, Spain's foreign minister has said.

Under the deal the territory will remain part of European Union agreements such as the Schengen free movement area, Arancha Gonzalez Laya told reporters.


http://news.sky.com/story/britain-and-s ... s-12176376


OK; Joining Schengen the UK territory will make UK taking back control?

So we have a real situation now that in less then 2 years UK cotizen will need to pre register in ETIAS to go to Gibraltar?

https://www.etiasvisa.com/etias-news/et ... y-end-2022


only warped minds ever thought BREXIT was a good idea.
( as it is: did any of the big mouthed promises to the advantage of the UK general public ( like more money for NHS ) ever materialize ( or even possible to begin with)?
I think not.
 
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OA260
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Thu Dec 31, 2020 5:22 pm

Olddog wrote:
Statistics... How much of the scotland exports goes thru england to the EU and are accounted as england export? :)


Do you have a link to that or should we just take your advice to Google something ;)
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Thu Dec 31, 2020 6:01 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-55348994?__twitter_impression=true

For people who are struggling


UK brexiteer: "Say that you're missing us, madly and desperately! Just say it already!!!"

EU: "Haven't we been through this? Your stuff is outside on the lawn. Now stop harassing us before we'll have to turn on the sprinklers."
 
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Tugger
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Thu Dec 31, 2020 6:07 pm

I do so love the egotistical posts that so many in this thread make!

Always a joy to read and of course are a true reflection of the people making them. In my opinion.

Tugg
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Thu Dec 31, 2020 6:35 pm

OA260 wrote:
olle wrote:
Could the solution for Scotland become something similar to NI or Gibraltar?



Probably not :

''After over 40 years of unfettered market access, the EU accounts for just 21 per cent of Scotland’s exports compared to 60 per cent to the rest of the UK.''

http://www.spectator.co.uk/article/leav ... brexit/amp


If Scotland were to regain its independence there would probably have to be some sort of a transition period too before it would officially take effect, during which it might negotiate EU membership to take effect the moment it leaves the UK.
As an EU member, it would benefit from the UK-EU deal right away which by Brexiteers own standards is as good as SM membership....
No drawback whatsoever then, right?
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Brexit Part X: dark days before Christmas

Thu Dec 31, 2020 9:08 pm

OA260 wrote:
olle wrote:
Could the solution for Scotland become something similar to NI or Gibraltar?



Probably not :

''After over 40 years of unfettered market access, the EU accounts for just 21 per cent of Scotland’s exports compared to 60 per cent to the rest of the UK.''

http://www.spectator.co.uk/article/leav ... brexit/amp


On the flip side:

“ Northern Ireland would be inside the UK customs union. It would therefore be part of any trade deals that the UK agrees with third countries Yet if the UK government keeps the commitments it made in the EU Withdrawal Agreement, checks will have to be carried out on goods coming from Great Britain to Northern Ireland that are “at risk” of being shipped to Ireland, and thus to the EU single market. Customs checks within the existing UK territory will therefore be in place before Scotland becomes independent. The paradox of these arrangements is that the UK government will wish to show that they have minimal impact on NI/GB trade, while at the same time arguing that similar checks on the Anglo-Scottish border will have a devastating effect on the Scottish economy.”

...

“Trade flows across the Anglo-Scottish border are substantial. Figure 1 shows the size of imports and exports (excluding offshore effects) relative to Scottish GDP from 1998 to 2018 (figures for 2017 and 2018 are provisional). While Scotland’ trade with the rest of the world (RoW) is almost consistently in balance, it runs a deficit in goods and services with rUK, which has averaged 5.7 per cent of Scottish GDP during the last ten years. This would be an issue for a Scottish government if it set up a separate currency and could not establish compensating capital inflows. On the other hand, the argument put forward by the Brexiteers was that the EU needed a trade deal with the UK more than the UK with the EU because of the UK’s trade deficit with the EU – so a similar logic applies to a Scottish/rUK deal?“

https://www.centreonconstitutionalchang ... ruk-border

Whatever one’s views on Scottish independence, it’s hard to ignore the precedents and templates that Brexit has created to resolve the issue of leaving heavily integrated unions.

If Brexit can be deemed a worthwhile endeavour by voters, then Scexit might be deemed one too.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Updated: Brexit Part X: agreement

Thu Dec 31, 2020 9:53 pm

New thread as users noted size of thread inhibiting discussion:
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1456157
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