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Redd
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The Votes of Black Americans Should Be x 2 - Says The Nation

Mon Dec 21, 2020 8:12 pm

I'm curious to read what your reactions to something like this are.

https://www.thenation.com/article/socie ... mandering/
 
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Tugger
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Re: The Votes of Black Americans Should Be x 2 - Says The Nation

Mon Dec 21, 2020 8:22 pm

The same as when I hear the reasoning behind why it was written into the US Constitution that blacks (slaves that is) were only to be counted at 3/5ths of a person.... Dumb, ridiculous, outrageous statement.

But of course unlike when written in the US Constitution, these are just words with no force of law and nor will ever have that. Aren't we lucky...

Tugg
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There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
art
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Re: The Votes of Black Americans Should Be x 2 - Says The Nation

Mon Dec 21, 2020 8:25 pm

But there’s another way to undo the damage of the Electoral College and other structurally racist political institutions: We can implement vote reparations by double-counting ballots cast by all Black residents. The poisonous legacy of slavery applies to Black people regardless of when we or our ancestors arrived in this country. Vote reparations should also extend to Native Americans. Slavery is rightly called America’s original sin, but so too was the United States’ genocidal seizure of land from its original inhabitants. Various legal forms of disenfranchisement have applied to them. It wasn’t until 1962 that all Native Americans were allowed to vote, and even then they faced—and still face—electoral obstacles. These are not the only examples of American oppression; we should include in vote reparations others who have suffered similar disenfranchisement.


Unacceptable to me. Democracy = votes for the people. One each. Not one for some people, two for others, three for yet others.
 
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casinterest
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Re: The Votes of Black Americans Should Be x 2 - Says The Nation

Mon Dec 21, 2020 8:27 pm

A qualifier from the article.

The Argument is a column where writers and thinkers propose a provocative idea that may not be politically realizable in the short term but that pushes one to think broader about a pressing issue of public importance



The below highlights an issue with the electoral college that we have all seen

One core problem is the Electoral College. Wyoming, which has just 580,000 residents and is 93 percent white, gets three electors because of its two senators and one representative in the House. By comparison, Georgia’s Fifth Congressional District—which includes Atlanta, has 710,000 residents, and is 58 percent Black—has no dedicated electors or senators and can only occasionally overcome the mostly white and conservative votes from elsewhere in the state.


Now to the core idea of 2 votes. There is a very provocative problem in that at the start of this country, slaves got 3/5 of a vote ,and women got none.
Why should any one person get 2 votes:?
How are we fighting for the equalities gained if we make things unequal again?
What does that do in a world where equality and population have given rise to change in Georgia and almost delivered North Carolina?

Equality means 1 person 1 vote.
Last edited by casinterest on Mon Dec 21, 2020 8:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
johns624
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Re: The Votes of Black Americans Should Be x 2 - Says The Nation

Mon Dec 21, 2020 8:27 pm

That appears to be an opinion piece; so one man's opinion. You know what they say about opinions...
Also, he needs to read up on his history. The EC wasn't set up to protect slave states, but to protect smaller population states.
 
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T18
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Re: The Votes of Black Americans Should Be x 2 - Says The Nation

Mon Dec 21, 2020 8:28 pm

I often find a general test for me on such statements is, would it be problematic to say if you changed the group. And clearly yes it is for any group. The solution to inequalities is not to create an offsetting inequality instead we should work to eliminate the inequalities that we can identify.

Kinda reminds me of those equality bake sales where they charged men and women different prices unironically
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Re: The Votes of Black Americans Should Be x 2 - Says The Nation

Mon Dec 21, 2020 8:32 pm

casinterest wrote:
Now to the core idea of 2 votes. There is a very provocative problem in that at the start of this country, slaves got 3/5 of a vote ,and women got none.

No slave got to vote. They were only counted as 3/5ths of a person for representation (by white land owning males or course!).

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
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casinterest
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Re: The Votes of Black Americans Should Be x 2 - Says The Nation

Mon Dec 21, 2020 8:34 pm

Tugger wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Now to the core idea of 2 votes. There is a very provocative problem in that at the start of this country, slaves got 3/5 of a vote ,and women got none.

No slave got to vote. They were only counted as 3/5ths of a person for representation (by white land owning males or course!).

Tugg



yes misstatement, but technically they were used for voting purposes.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: The Votes of Black Americans Should Be x 2 - Says The Nation

Mon Dec 21, 2020 11:04 pm

It wasn’t for voting at all, the 3/5 only counted for determining proportional representation in the House of Representatives. All whites counted, male or female and 3/5ths of all slaves. Who voted we’re only white men.
 
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Aesma
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Re: The Votes of Black Americans Should Be x 2 - Says The Nation

Tue Dec 22, 2020 2:20 am

Thought provoking indeed. Fixing the EC (and proportional representation, and fixing the senate, and campaign finance) should be enough.
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Sokes
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Re: The Votes of Black Americans Should Be x 2 - Says The Nation

Tue Dec 22, 2020 2:55 am

casinterest wrote:
Why should any one person get 2 votes:?

Because he/ she pays 10 times the average income tax.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
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Aaron747
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Re: The Votes of Black Americans Should Be x 2 - Says The Nation

Tue Dec 22, 2020 5:53 am

Now in 2020, one person -> one vote. Not two votes for a corporation (Citizens United was premised on a flawed argument), or two votes for an aggrieved population. ONE person, ONE vote.

Voter access and overall representation vis-a-vis Senate and EC are separate issues.
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seb146
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Re: The Votes of Black Americans Should Be x 2 - Says The Nation

Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:32 am

Minority voters still face challenges to voting like being taken off voter rolls or having their vote tossed because the signatures to not match exactly or they don't have the right kind of ID or are not told rules are changing

https://www.businessinsider.com/why-bla ... tep-2020-6

One person, one vote, but stop making it difficult for minorities to vote!
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Re: The Votes of Black Americans Should Be x 2 - Says The Nation

Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:50 am

Tugger wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Now to the core idea of 2 votes. There is a very provocative problem in that at the start of this country, slaves got 3/5 of a vote ,and women got none.

No slave got to vote. They were only counted as 3/5ths of a person for representation (by white land owning males or course!).

Tugg


The Northerners - and abolitionists - wanted slaves to count even less than 3/5 because the further influx of slaves would have given the Southern states much, much more power. Likewise, the Northern states wanted to count slaves as property so the Southern states would pay more in taxes.

It's weird, isn't it?

Aaron747 wrote:
Now in 2020, one person -> one vote. Not two votes for a corporation (Citizens United was premised on a flawed argument), or two votes for an aggrieved population. ONE person, ONE vote.

Voter access and overall representation vis-a-vis Senate and EC are separate issues.


Don't get me started on Citizens United... :biggrin: In every sane country, only natural persons enjoy constitutional rights. Legal persons like companies, associations etc. don't. And I still don't grasp how a money payment can be seen as political speech.
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
tommy1808
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Re: The Votes of Black Americans Should Be x 2 - Says The Nation

Tue Dec 22, 2020 8:16 am

flyingturtle wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Now in 2020, one person -> one vote. Not two votes for a corporation (Citizens United was premised on a flawed argument), or two votes for an aggrieved population. ONE person, ONE vote.

Voter access and overall representation vis-a-vis Senate and EC are separate issues.


Don't get me started on Citizens United... :biggrin: In every sane country, only natural persons enjoy constitutional rights. Legal persons like companies, associations etc. don't. And I still don't grasp how a money payment can be seen as political speech.


aside of the whole pesky thing of companies being people, but criminal law doesn´t apply to them the same way if does to people. Companies don´t get imprisoned for murder, or fraud, or what not....

And I still don't grasp how a money payment can be seen as political speech.


And how is people giving money to Hisbollah not free speech?

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Re: The Votes of Black Americans Should Be x 2 - Says The Nation

Tue Dec 22, 2020 10:17 am

tommy1808 wrote:
And I still don't grasp how a money payment can be seen as political speech.

And how is people giving money to Hisbollah not free speech?


Looking up a review on that matter, the SCOTUS has consistently found that "knowingly giving material support" to organizations that use "political violence" is not protected speech. I agree with that. The problems I see is:
- when I donate to the GOP or Dems, why is it speech but not "knowingly giving material support"?
- when the State Department designates a terrorist organization, it happens without a legal review, without a possibility to appeal the decision.

I think we should move further discussion to Private Message so that General Moderator won't lock the thread.
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seb146
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Re: The Votes of Black Americans Should Be x 2 - Says The Nation

Tue Dec 22, 2020 6:54 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
And I still don't grasp how a money payment can be seen as political speech.

And how is people giving money to Hisbollah not free speech?


Looking up a review on that matter, the SCOTUS has consistently found that "knowingly giving material support" to organizations that use "political violence" is not protected speech. I agree with that. The problems I see is:
- when I donate to the GOP or Dems, why is it speech but not "knowingly giving material support"?
- when the State Department designates a terrorist organization, it happens without a legal review, without a possibility to appeal the decision.

I think we should move further discussion to Private Message so that General Moderator won't lock the thread.


Maybe start a different thread because this is an interesting point. Groups like Proud Boys and BLM could be considered by some to use political violence. but both groups have the right to peacefully assemble and also have the right to discuss their beliefs and write op-ed pieces.
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Dieuwer
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Re: The Votes of Black Americans Should Be x 2 - Says The Nation

Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:16 pm

People actually want to debate this blatant attempt at flamebait / trolling by The Nation OP-ed piece ?
 
ltbewr
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Re: The Votes of Black Americans Should Be x 2 - Says The Nation

Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:43 pm

And they wonder why liberals, progressives and in turn Democrats lose elections. Ideas like this are so wrong on so many levels, so offensive, and so unworkable they cannot be considered.

Better would be to reintroduce in the the new Congress and pass the long pending Voting Right Act that would reinstate or add new Federal standards for voting on the states and in part deal with racial bias in those states that limit the right to vote and representation. National ID requirements, standards for voting methods, counting methods and machines, limits on how state legislators and US House districts are set by the states (mainly to non-partisan commissions), severe limits on felony conviction bars from voting. Changing the EC vote is near impossible due to the high bar there is to amend the Constitution, especially as it would shift the excessive control of our elections from the small states to the big states.The EC vote should also reflect, as in any other election, the person with the most votes win.
 
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Re: The Votes of Black Americans Should Be x 2 - Says The Nation

Tue Dec 22, 2020 9:20 pm

A patently absurd notion - must be a slow news day and that site wanted clicks
 
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flyingturtle
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Re: The Votes of Black Americans Should Be x 2 - Says The Nation

Tue Dec 22, 2020 10:46 pm

So...

I propose that the vote of each Native American should be worth a million White votes. Reason?

There are so few Native Americans left, and they are the rightful owners of the country...

No, the idea is terribly bad.

Somebody once told me that Poland asked for more seats in the European Parliament. The reason given was that about five million Poles were killed in World War II, and thus Poland doesn't get a fair representation. I couldn't find a source for it, though.
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Re: The Votes of Black Americans Should Be x 2 - Says The Nation

Wed Dec 23, 2020 3:05 am

I disagree with the opinion piece from The Nation. I would rather see initiatives to further increase voter participation rather than using the race card, even if the opinion piece suggests going down this route as reparation for slavery. There should also be initiatives to eliminate voter suppression that's pushed by the Republican party. One of the commenters from the article put it succinctly: Equality over superiority.

If slave reparations were to occur, that needs to be handled differently (read: Money) rather than through voting privileges that some people won't use.

From the article:
Because white votes currently count more than Black ones, double-counting Black votes would restore electoral balance.

I don't understand that. Is the author trying to argue votes are not currently 1:1 vis-a-vis by ethinicity?

To address systemic racism, we must transform how we choose our government.

And that's done by protesters (all ethnicities) going to the polls, and not damaging property like we saw this year.

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