Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 7
 
bennett123
Posts: 10816
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: Cruise Ship/Ocean Liner Thread -2021

Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:36 pm

ArchGuy1

I think you are failing to take account of the impact of COVID.

Th cull has not ended yet.
 
User avatar
Kiwirob
Posts: 13494
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Cruise Ship/Ocean Liner Thread -2021

Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:37 pm

ArchGuy1 wrote:
Here is a petition to sign to try and save the Queen Mary for further generations and this is a ship that desperately needs restoration.
https://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeact ... =675739135


I went onboard her in 2004, apart from the hull and superstructure most of the interiors have been chopped and changed from when she sailed that there really isn’t much left worth preserving, I wouldn’t be surprised if she’s scrapped. She’s also in a stupid location.
 
ArchGuy1
Posts: 1910
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:35 pm

Re: Cruise Ship/Ocean Liner Thread -2021

Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:38 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
Here is a petition to sign to try and save the Queen Mary for further generations and this is a ship that desperately needs restoration.
https://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeact ... =675739135


I went onboard her in 2004, apart from the hull and superstructure most of the interiors have been chopped and changed from when she sailed that there really isn’t much left worth preserving, I wouldn’t be surprised if she’s scrapped. She’s also in a stupid location.

Why is the Queen Mary in a stupid location?
 
User avatar
Kiwirob
Posts: 13494
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Cruise Ship/Ocean Liner Thread -2021

Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:43 pm

ArchGuy1 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
Here is a petition to sign to try and save the Queen Mary for further generations and this is a ship that desperately needs restoration.
https://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeact ... =675739135


I went onboard her in 2004, apart from the hull and superstructure most of the interiors have been chopped and changed from when she sailed that there really isn’t much left worth preserving, I wouldn’t be surprised if she’s scrapped. She’s also in a stupid location.

Why is the Queen Mary in a stupid location?


She’s in the middle of a port, there’s no other attractions close by ie shopping, amusement, restaurants within walking distance and she’s not interesting enough as a destination in her own right.
 
jetwet1
Posts: 3333
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:42 am

Re: Cruise Ship/Ocean Liner Thread -2021

Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:44 pm

ArchGuy1 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
Here is a petition to sign to try and save the Queen Mary for further generations and this is a ship that desperately needs restoration.
https://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeact ... =675739135


I went onboard her in 2004, apart from the hull and superstructure most of the interiors have been chopped and changed from when she sailed that there really isn’t much left worth preserving, I wouldn’t be surprised if she’s scrapped. She’s also in a stupid location.

Why is the Queen Mary in a stupid location?


It's a pain in the butt to get to, there is nothing to do around it in the evening, but, I enjoy staying on her before any cruise out of LA.
 
ArchGuy1
Posts: 1910
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:35 pm

Re: Cruise Ship/Ocean Liner Thread -2021

Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:45 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

I went onboard her in 2004, apart from the hull and superstructure most of the interiors have been chopped and changed from when she sailed that there really isn’t much left worth preserving, I wouldn’t be surprised if she’s scrapped. She’s also in a stupid location.

Why is the Queen Mary in a stupid location?


She’s in the middle of a port, there’s no other attractions close by ie shopping, amusement, restaurants within walking distance and she’s not interesting enough as a destination in her own right.

Would the Queen Mary have become a great attraction if the DisneySea project had been built there?
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 4887
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Cruise Ship/Ocean Liner Thread -2021

Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:33 pm

" Barely anyone would be satisfied with an angle-flat today, let alone a traditional business recliner."
Just about anyone having to fly for business would be happy to have a traditional business recliner if the option is a Y class seat. Many flying leisure may be willing to pay a little extra for a great recliner versus a multiple extra.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
ArchGuy1
Posts: 1910
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:35 pm

Re: Cruise Ship/Ocean Liner Thread -2021

Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:35 am

Kiwirob wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

I went onboard her in 2004, apart from the hull and superstructure most of the interiors have been chopped and changed from when she sailed that there really isn’t much left worth preserving, I wouldn’t be surprised if she’s scrapped. She’s also in a stupid location.

Why is the Queen Mary in a stupid location?


She’s in the middle of a port, there’s no other attractions close by ie shopping, amusement, restaurants within walking distance and she’s not interesting enough as a destination in her own right.

Pretty much everything in Southern California is spread out as well.
 
VSMUT
Posts: 5498
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Cruise Ship/Ocean Liner Thread -2021

Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:07 am

ArchGuy1 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
Many ocean liners and cruise ships built from the 1950's onward sailed 40-50 years before being scrapped despite being outdated for many years before their retirement.


But that is because:
1) The market could absorb the capacity. It can't any more.
2) Passenger expectations have changed.

If we compare it with aviation, business class seats were pretty much unchanged from the 1950s onwards. In the 2000s we then got angle-flat seats and in the 2010s the lie flat seats. Barely anyone would be satisfied with an angle-flat today, let alone a traditional business recliner.

Many 1970's cruise ships sailed a little over 40 years, even years or over a decade after the megaships with balconies, watersides, rock climbing walls,, and other entertainment amenities became standard.


But they usually only kept sailing at the big cruise lines because the shipyards couldn't deliver new ships fast enough. Shipyards had record order books for cruise ships for the past 10 years. When those lines finally got around to phasing the outdated ships out, they would mostly end up at second rate budget operators.



frmrCapCadet wrote:
" Barely anyone would be satisfied with an angle-flat today, let alone a traditional business recliner."
Just about anyone having to fly for business would be happy to have a traditional business recliner if the option is a Y class seat. Many flying leisure may be willing to pay a little extra for a great recliner versus a multiple extra.


Sure, but they aren't willing to pay the price, just like anyone satisfied with an interior cabin wouldn't be willing to cough up the amount for an external cabin.
 
bananaboy
Posts: 1703
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2004 6:58 am

Re: Cruise Ship/Ocean Liner Thread -2021

Mon Jan 11, 2021 8:42 pm

4 more ships expected to leave the Carnival Corp. fleet this year.

Any guesses? I'd think the rest of the Carnival Fantasy class (Ecstasy, Sensation, Elation and Paradise) must be obvious candidates. Carnival are getting some new ships; between Mardi Gras and Carnival Celebration, it'll still be an overall increase in fleet beds but with, presumably, a reduction in costs and improved efficiency.

I don't see any further more obvious candidates within any of the other brands, except maybe Holland America's Volendam and Zaandam. IMHO more unlikely to see these go.

https://www.cruiseindustrynews.com/crui ... fleet.html
All my life, I've been kissing, your top lip 'cause your bottom one's missing
 
ArchGuy1
Posts: 1910
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:35 pm

Re: Cruise Ship/Ocean Liner Thread -2021

Mon Jan 11, 2021 8:45 pm

bennett123 wrote:
ArchGuy1

I think you are failing to take account of the impact of COVID.

Th cull has not ended yet.

I have not heard of a single building being demolished due to COVID-19, even though a lot of businesses occupying them have gone out of business.
 
petertenthije
Posts: 4217
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2001 10:00 pm

Re: Cruise Ship/Ocean Liner Thread -2021

Mon Jan 11, 2021 8:48 pm

ArchGuy1 wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
ArchGuy1

I think you are failing to take account of the impact of COVID.

Th cull has not ended yet.

I have not heard of a single building being demolished due to COVID-19, even though a lot of businesses occupying them have gone out of business.

A building does not cost a lot of money to leave empty. It is also less economically viable to strip of parts for reuse in another building.

A vessel costs money even when it is not in use. Also, a vessel is made of valuable materials that are easy to recycle.
The first thing to remember is always treat your kite like you treat your woman.
Get inside her five times a day and take her to heaven and back!
Lord Flashheart, 1989
 
ArchGuy1
Posts: 1910
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:35 pm

Re: Cruise Ship/Ocean Liner Thread -2021

Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:32 pm

petertenthije wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
ArchGuy1

I think you are failing to take account of the impact of COVID.

Th cull has not ended yet.

I have not heard of a single building being demolished due to COVID-19, even though a lot of businesses occupying them have gone out of business.

A building does not cost a lot of money to leave empty. It is also less economically viable to strip of parts for reuse in another building.

A vessel costs money even when it is not in use. Also, a vessel is made of valuable materials that are easy to recycle.

How much does it cost to maintain a ship placed on dry land like the MV Doulos and MV Lydia?
 
johns624
Posts: 3784
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Cruise Ship/Ocean Liner Thread -2021

Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:48 pm

ArchGuy1 wrote:
petertenthije wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
I have not heard of a single building being demolished due to COVID-19, even though a lot of businesses occupying them have gone out of business.

A building does not cost a lot of money to leave empty. It is also less economically viable to strip of parts for reuse in another building.

A vessel costs money even when it is not in use. Also, a vessel is made of valuable materials that are easy to recycle.

How much does it cost to maintain a ship placed on dry land like the MV Doulos and MV Lydia?
Wrong question. The correct question is...how much money does it cost to put a ship on dry land. Answer...too much. Buildings can be re-leased to someone else. When the entire industry is way over capacity, there are no buyers. Just like when the US steel industry tanked in the early 80s. They didn't sell the mills to other companies, they tore them down.
 
bennett123
Posts: 10816
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: Cruise Ship/Ocean Liner Thread -2021

Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:38 pm

ArchGuy1

Firstly, how many buildings have been left empty, many will be demolished.

Secondly, several ships have already been scrapped due to the pandemic.
 
FGITD
Posts: 1605
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:44 pm

Re: Cruise Ship/Ocean Liner Thread -2021

Tue Jan 12, 2021 12:11 am

johns624 wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
petertenthije wrote:
A building does not cost a lot of money to leave empty. It is also less economically viable to strip of parts for reuse in another building.

A vessel costs money even when it is not in use. Also, a vessel is made of valuable materials that are easy to recycle.

How much does it cost to maintain a ship placed on dry land like the MV Doulos and MV Lydia?
Wrong question. The correct question is...how much money does it cost to put a ship on dry land. Answer...too much. Buildings can be re-leased to someone else. When the entire industry is way over capacity, there are no buyers. Just like when the US steel industry tanked in the early 80s. They didn't sell the mills to other companies, they tore them down.


To add-a building can also become something else. That out of business coffee shop can become a restaurant, or a bakery, or an insurance office, or a daycare etc etc etc

A ship is a ship. Outside of being a cruise ship or a hotel, there’s not much room for change. It’s a very limited model. No entrepreneur is looking to open up shop downtown with that giant retired ocean vessel.
 
ArchGuy1
Posts: 1910
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:35 pm

Re: Cruise Ship/Ocean Liner Thread -2021

Tue Jan 12, 2021 12:23 am

FGITD wrote:
johns624 wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
How much does it cost to maintain a ship placed on dry land like the MV Doulos and MV Lydia?
Wrong question. The correct question is...how much money does it cost to put a ship on dry land. Answer...too much. Buildings can be re-leased to someone else. When the entire industry is way over capacity, there are no buyers. Just like when the US steel industry tanked in the early 80s. They didn't sell the mills to other companies, they tore them down.


To add-a building can also become something else. That out of business coffee shop can become a restaurant, or a bakery, or an insurance office, or a daycare etc etc etc

A ship is a ship. Outside of being a cruise ship or a hotel, there’s not much room for change. It’s a very limited model. No entrepreneur is looking to open up shop downtown with that giant retired ocean vessel.

Does an aircraft, bridge, locomotive, or rail car have the ability to become something else as well?
 
FGITD
Posts: 1605
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:44 pm

Re: Cruise Ship/Ocean Liner Thread -2021

Tue Jan 12, 2021 12:27 am

ArchGuy1 wrote:
FGITD wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Wrong question. The correct question is...how much money does it cost to put a ship on dry land. Answer...too much. Buildings can be re-leased to someone else. When the entire industry is way over capacity, there are no buyers. Just like when the US steel industry tanked in the early 80s. They didn't sell the mills to other companies, they tore them down.


To add-a building can also become something else. That out of business coffee shop can become a restaurant, or a bakery, or an insurance office, or a daycare etc etc etc

A ship is a ship. Outside of being a cruise ship or a hotel, there’s not much room for change. It’s a very limited model. No entrepreneur is looking to open up shop downtown with that giant retired ocean vessel.

Does an aircraft, bridge, locomotive, or rail car have the ability to become something else as well?


To a certain degree, sure. But I’ll cost far more than a purpose built structure, and be worse at the task.

Given enough money and time, I could probably make my house seaworthy and take her out into the bay. But for much less money and time, I could just buy a boat.
 
IH8BY
Posts: 784
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 5:39 pm

Re: Cruise Ship/Ocean Liner Thread -2021

Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:25 am

ArchGuy1 wrote:
FGITD wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Wrong question. The correct question is...how much money does it cost to put a ship on dry land. Answer...too much. Buildings can be re-leased to someone else. When the entire industry is way over capacity, there are no buyers. Just like when the US steel industry tanked in the early 80s. They didn't sell the mills to other companies, they tore them down.


To add-a building can also become something else. That out of business coffee shop can become a restaurant, or a bakery, or an insurance office, or a daycare etc etc etc

A ship is a ship. Outside of being a cruise ship or a hotel, there’s not much room for change. It’s a very limited model. No entrepreneur is looking to open up shop downtown with that giant retired ocean vessel.

Does an aircraft, bridge, locomotive, or rail car have the ability to become something else as well?


Not really, no - and you'll notice that a lot of aircraft are indeed going to be scrapped. The odd one here and there might be preserved, as with ships, but just as in the cruise industry this crisis has accelerated retirement for a lot of aircraft.
Have you ever felt like you could float into the sky / like the laws of physics simply don't apply?
 
VSMUT
Posts: 5498
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Cruise Ship/Ocean Liner Thread -2021

Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:22 am

ArchGuy1 wrote:
petertenthije wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
I have not heard of a single building being demolished due to COVID-19, even though a lot of businesses occupying them have gone out of business.

A building does not cost a lot of money to leave empty. It is also less economically viable to strip of parts for reuse in another building.

A vessel costs money even when it is not in use. Also, a vessel is made of valuable materials that are easy to recycle.

How much does it cost to maintain a ship placed on dry land like the MV Doulos and MV Lydia?


Those ships are tiny. Costa Victoria is over 11 times as big as Doulos.

I visited the Doulos a lot of times when she was still a book store, so I've been following it with interest. The conversion was very extensive. The ship was pretty much gutted and rebuilt on the inside to suit her new life on land. In particular the sides had to be strengthened to support the weight while on land. The reality is that the ship today is more not ship than ship. It is a nautical themed building inside the husk of a ship.
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 25462
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

Re: Cruise Ship/Ocean Liner Thread -2021

Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:01 am

Cruise ship operator and Diamond Princess owner Carnival posts $2bn loss

FTSE-lised cruise ship operator Carnival today posted a $2bn (£1.48bn) loss for the December quarter, as the global Covid-19 pandemic kept its boats in port.

Carnival, whose Princess Cruises unit saw hundreds of its Diamond Princess liner passengers catch Covid-19 early in the pandemic, said currently its business was at “a virtual standstill”.

www.cityam.com/cruise-ship-operator-and ... -loss/amp/
 
ArchGuy1
Posts: 1910
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:35 pm

Re: Cruise Ship/Ocean Liner Thread -2021

Tue Jan 12, 2021 2:26 pm

IH8BY wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
FGITD wrote:

To add-a building can also become something else. That out of business coffee shop can become a restaurant, or a bakery, or an insurance office, or a daycare etc etc etc

A ship is a ship. Outside of being a cruise ship or a hotel, there’s not much room for change. It’s a very limited model. No entrepreneur is looking to open up shop downtown with that giant retired ocean vessel.

Does an aircraft, bridge, locomotive, or rail car have the ability to become something else as well?


Not really, no - and you'll notice that a lot of aircraft are indeed going to be scrapped. The odd one here and there might be preserved, as with ships, but just as in the cruise industry this crisis has accelerated retirement for a lot of aircraft.

Have you heard of any buildings being demolished due to COVID-19, because I have not heard of any?
 
johns624
Posts: 3784
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Cruise Ship/Ocean Liner Thread -2021

Tue Jan 12, 2021 2:46 pm

ArchGuy1 wrote:
IH8BY wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
Does an aircraft, bridge, locomotive, or rail car have the ability to become something else as well?


Not really, no - and you'll notice that a lot of aircraft are indeed going to be scrapped. The odd one here and there might be preserved, as with ships, but just as in the cruise industry this crisis has accelerated retirement for a lot of aircraft.

Have you heard of any buildings being demolished due to COVID-19, because I have not heard of any?
Why would buildings be demolished?
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 25462
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

Re: Cruise Ship/Ocean Liner Thread -2021

Tue Jan 12, 2021 3:39 pm

As expected further pause from RCI


Image
 
ArchGuy1
Posts: 1910
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:35 pm

Re: Cruise Ship/Ocean Liner Thread -2021

Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:35 pm

VSMUT wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
petertenthije wrote:
A building does not cost a lot of money to leave empty. It is also less economically viable to strip of parts for reuse in another building.

A vessel costs money even when it is not in use. Also, a vessel is made of valuable materials that are easy to recycle.

How much does it cost to maintain a ship placed on dry land like the MV Doulos and MV Lydia?


Those ships are tiny. Costa Victoria is over 11 times as big as Doulos.

I visited the Doulos a lot of times when she was still a book store, so I've been following it with interest. The conversion was very extensive. The ship was pretty much gutted and rebuilt on the inside to suit her new life on land. In particular the sides had to be strengthened to support the weight while on land. The reality is that the ship today is more not ship than ship. It is a nautical themed building inside the husk of a ship.

The QE2 is close to the size of the Costa Victoria and the Queen Mary is even larger than the Costa Victoria, but both ships have become static attractions used as a hotel and museum in Dubai and Long Beach respectively. However, they were ocean liners and not cruise ships.
 
User avatar
Kiwirob
Posts: 13494
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Cruise Ship/Ocean Liner Thread -2021

Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:05 pm

ArchGuy1 wrote:
petertenthije wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
I have not heard of a single building being demolished due to COVID-19, even though a lot of businesses occupying them have gone out of business.

A building does not cost a lot of money to leave empty. It is also less economically viable to strip of parts for reuse in another building.

A vessel costs money even when it is not in use. Also, a vessel is made of valuable materials that are easy to recycle.

How much does it cost to maintain a ship placed on dry land like the MV Doulos and MV Lydia?


Give up already, those are small ships, relatively easy to beach, try hauling a 260m plus, 80,000 ton plus cruise ship onto land, nobody has ever done that before, it won’t be easy, it’s frankly a very stupid idea.
 
ArchGuy1
Posts: 1910
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:35 pm

Re: Cruise Ship/Ocean Liner Thread -2021

Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:08 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
petertenthije wrote:
A building does not cost a lot of money to leave empty. It is also less economically viable to strip of parts for reuse in another building.

A vessel costs money even when it is not in use. Also, a vessel is made of valuable materials that are easy to recycle.

How much does it cost to maintain a ship placed on dry land like the MV Doulos and MV Lydia?


Give up already, those are small ships, relatively easy to beach, try hauling a 260m plus, 80,000 ton plus cruise ship onto land, nobody has ever done that before, it won’t be easy, it’s frankly a very stupid idea.

Ships that potentially could be hauled onto land include the MV Funchal and MV Stockholm/Astoria as they are small ships.
 
User avatar
Kiwirob
Posts: 13494
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Cruise Ship/Ocean Liner Thread -2021

Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:19 pm

ArchGuy1 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
How much does it cost to maintain a ship placed on dry land like the MV Doulos and MV Lydia?


Give up already, those are small ships, relatively easy to beach, try hauling a 260m plus, 80,000 ton plus cruise ship onto land, nobody has ever done that before, it won’t be easy, it’s frankly a very stupid idea.

Ships that potentially could be hauled onto land include the MV Funchal and MV Stockholm/Astoria as they are small ships.


Why go to the expense? MV Astoria looks nothing like MC Stockholm, what ever history she had is long gone, and Funchal what’s notable about her, they are just old ships. I don’t see any interest in them becoming museums or hotels. And as we have already discussed Queen Mary is in financial difficulty, it’s send her to the scrappers as well. I think the same fate will befall QE2, she’s also in a crappy location. Why got to a hotel on a ship moored to a wharf when you can go on a cruise on a ship that is actually at sea??
 
VSMUT
Posts: 5498
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Cruise Ship/Ocean Liner Thread -2021

Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:22 pm

ArchGuy1 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
How much does it cost to maintain a ship placed on dry land like the MV Doulos and MV Lydia?


Give up already, those are small ships, relatively easy to beach, try hauling a 260m plus, 80,000 ton plus cruise ship onto land, nobody has ever done that before, it won’t be easy, it’s frankly a very stupid idea.

Ships that potentially could be hauled onto land include the MV Funchal and MV Stockholm/Astoria as they are small ships.


Hauled on land, gutted, strengthened and rebuilt from the keel (foundation) up to make something useful. And unlike a building, it will slowly rust away unless constantly maintained.
 
johns624
Posts: 3784
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Cruise Ship/Ocean Liner Thread -2021

Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:27 pm

Kiwirob wrote:

Why go to the expense? MV Astoria looks nothing like MC Stockholm, what ever history she had is long gone, and Funchal what’s notable about her, they are just old ships. I don’t see any interest in them becoming museums or hotels. And as we have already discussed Queen Mary is in financial difficulty, it’s send her to the scrappers as well. I think the same fate will befall QE2, she’s also in a crappy location. Why got to a hotel on a ship moored to a wharf when you can go on a cruise on a ship that is actually at sea??
I don't think ArchGuy really gets the concept, since he says that he's never been on a cruise. He keeps thinking that people go on a cruise for the ship itself, not the real reason that they are merely a means of transporting you from one exotic port to another.
 
ArchGuy1
Posts: 1910
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:35 pm

Re: Cruise Ship/Ocean Liner Thread -2021

Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:27 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

Give up already, those are small ships, relatively easy to beach, try hauling a 260m plus, 80,000 ton plus cruise ship onto land, nobody has ever done that before, it won’t be easy, it’s frankly a very stupid idea.

Ships that potentially could be hauled onto land include the MV Funchal and MV Stockholm/Astoria as they are small ships.


Why go to the expense? MV Astoria looks nothing like MC Stockholm, what ever history she had is long gone, and Funchal what’s notable about her, they are just old ships. I don’t see any interest in them becoming museums or hotels. And as we have already discussed Queen Mary is in financial difficulty, it’s send her to the scrappers as well. I think the same fate will befall QE2, she’s also in a crappy location. Why got to a hotel on a ship moored to a wharf when you can go on a cruise on a ship that is actually at sea??

One ship that was in bad shape in about 2000, but beautifully restored and in excellent shape is the SS Meteor in Superior, Wisconsin, which underwent a major restoration about 10-15 years ago.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Meteor_(1896)
 
bennett123
Posts: 10816
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: Cruise Ship/Ocean Liner Thread -2021

Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:54 pm

It is also 2,750 tons not 70,000 tons.

Plus there is a pandemic and people do not have money sloshing about.
 
VSMUT
Posts: 5498
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Cruise Ship/Ocean Liner Thread -2021

Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:03 pm

Speaking of ships being dragged ashore, here's a neat video timelapse of the former Danish ferry M/F Broen being beached in late 2020 as part of turning her into a museum to the Great Belt ferries that were replaced by the bridge in 1998.

https://vimeo.com/489829327/5feb52eb20

But before someone draws parallels between this ferry and the Golden Princess, note that it only weighs 1580 tons.
 
ArchGuy1
Posts: 1910
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:35 pm

Re: Cruise Ship/Ocean Liner Thread -2021

Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:54 pm

bennett123 wrote:
It is also 2,750 tons not 70,000 tons.

Plus there is a pandemic and people do not have money sloshing about.

Conversion and restoration work was done on QE2 in Dubai when it was closed from March to October and they really used that time wisely. QE2 is also 70,000 GRT.
Last edited by ArchGuy1 on Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
ArchGuy1
Posts: 1910
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:35 pm

Re: Cruise Ship/Ocean Liner Thread -2021

Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:56 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Speaking of ships being dragged ashore, here's a neat video timelapse of the former Danish ferry M/F Broen being beached in late 2020 as part of turning her into a museum to the Great Belt ferries that were replaced by the bridge in 1998.

https://vimeo.com/489829327/5feb52eb20

But before someone draws parallels between this ferry and the Golden Princess, note that it only weighs 1580 tons.

This work is still taking place despite the COVID-19 pandemic.
 
johns624
Posts: 3784
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Cruise Ship/Ocean Liner Thread -2021

Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:13 pm

Here's my easiest (and last) attempted explanation for ArchGuy... Back in the ocean liner days, the ship had equal billing with the destination. For example "I'm taking the Queen Mary to Southampton". Nowadays, in the cruise ship world, it's merely "I'm going to Alaska (Caribbean, etc.) for a cruise". The ship itself doesn't enter into it. I bet 6 months after a cruise 90+% of the passengers even remember the name of the ship. It was merely the vehicle that took them to their destination. They don't remember it anymore than they would the number of the cab that took them to the pier, the N# of the plane that flew them there, or anything else.
 
ArchGuy1
Posts: 1910
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:35 pm

Re: Cruise Ship/Ocean Liner Thread -2021

Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:42 pm

johns624 wrote:
Here's my easiest (and last) attempted explanation for ArchGuy... Back in the ocean liner days, the ship had equal billing with the destination. For example "I'm taking the Queen Mary to Southampton". Nowadays, in the cruise ship world, it's merely "I'm going to Alaska (Caribbean, etc.) for a cruise". The ship itself doesn't enter into it. I bet 6 months after a cruise 90+% of the passengers even remember the name of the ship. It was merely the vehicle that took them to their destination. They don't remember it anymore than they would the number of the cab that took them to the pier, the N# of the plane that flew them there, or anything else.

Indeed, the scrapping of the SS Nieuw Amsterdam in 1974 led to an outcry in the Netherlands and this led to the SS Rotterdam being preserved in her namesake city 35 years later.
 
bennett123
Posts: 10816
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: Cruise Ship/Ocean Liner Thread -2021

Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:02 pm

ArchGuy1

That was in 2018, not 2020.

Whole different ball game..
 
FGITD
Posts: 1605
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:44 pm

Re: Cruise Ship/Ocean Liner Thread -2021

Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:10 pm

What’s equally confusing is that I’ve read a few different sources for the “outcry” that all seem to be copy/pasted from each other, seemingly originating on one blog with no primary source.. And there’s no actual evidence that the alleged outcry did anything to save the SS Rotterdam. It just seems there was more desire and more importantly, funding, put up for Rotterdam
 
petertenthije
Posts: 4217
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2001 10:00 pm

Re: Cruise Ship/Ocean Liner Thread -2021

Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:12 pm

ArchGuy1 wrote:
Indeed, the scrapping of the SS Nieuw Amsterdam in 1974 led to an outcry in the Netherlands and this led to the SS Rotterdam being preserved in her namesake city 35 years later.

You keep bringing up the SS Rotterdam when it comes to ship preservation. I am pretty sure you know nothing of the background on the preservation.

The SS Rotterdam also led to an outcry, when the public found out how much money was wasted by stichting woonbron. They are a housing board that relied heavily on public money. The government giving them money to provide cheap social housing. You’ll understand that a company being kept afloat by the government can’t waste money on useless prestige projects.

Year on year they made a lot of loss, but kept going on the SSR. Then one year they posted a 120 million euro loss. That’s where the authorities intervened.

The entire board had to resign, and the successors where told to sell at least 80% of the shares of the ship. Unfortunately they could not find any interested parties. Due to the sunk costs they did not stop the project, but it did lead to further resignations. It even led to a parliamentary enquiry, which are a big deal in the Netherlands.

What I am trying to say here, is that the SSR should not be used as a shining example of ship preservation. And the SSR is a pretty small and low-tech vessel compared to some of the behemoths you want to see preserved.
The first thing to remember is always treat your kite like you treat your woman.
Get inside her five times a day and take her to heaven and back!
Lord Flashheart, 1989
 
ArchGuy1
Posts: 1910
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:35 pm

Re: Cruise Ship/Ocean Liner Thread -2021

Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:12 pm

FGITD wrote:
What’s equally confusing is that I’ve read a few different sources for the “outcry” that all seem to be copy/pasted from each other, seemingly originating on one blog with no primary source.. And there’s no actual evidence that the alleged outcry did anything to save the SS Rotterdam. It just seems there was more desire and more importantly, funding, put up for Rotterdam

Here is a source to back up my claims about the outcry that was seen with the SS Nieuw Amsterdam being scrapped.
http://ssmaritime.com/nieuwamsterdam-II.htm
 
ArchGuy1
Posts: 1910
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:35 pm

Re: Cruise Ship/Ocean Liner Thread -2021

Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:17 pm

bennett123 wrote:
ArchGuy1

That was in 2018, not 2020.

Whole different ball game..

Furthermore, the continued restoration work I am referring to for QE2 took place while the ship was closed in 2020.
 
bennett123
Posts: 10816
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: Cruise Ship/Ocean Liner Thread -2021

Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:35 pm

If you want to keep dreaming that all cruise ships are going to be turned into floating hotels or museums that is your dream.

In the real world, Monarch of the Seas, Sovereign of the Seas, Costa Victoria, Marco Polo, Carnival Fantasy, Carnival Imagination, Carnival Inspiration and Ocean Dream are all gone.

Given that the COVID pandemic is still with us, it is hard to see any reason to think the cull is over.
 
ArchGuy1
Posts: 1910
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:35 pm

Re: Cruise Ship/Ocean Liner Thread -2021

Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:57 pm

petertenthije wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
Indeed, the scrapping of the SS Nieuw Amsterdam in 1974 led to an outcry in the Netherlands and this led to the SS Rotterdam being preserved in her namesake city 35 years later.

You keep bringing up the SS Rotterdam when it comes to ship preservation. I am pretty sure you know nothing of the background on the preservation.

The SS Rotterdam also led to an outcry, when the public found out how much money was wasted by stichting woonbron. They are a housing board that relied heavily on public money. The government giving them money to provide cheap social housing. You’ll understand that a company being kept afloat by the government can’t waste money on useless prestige projects.

Year on year they made a lot of loss, but kept going on the SSR. Then one year they posted a 120 million euro loss. That’s where the authorities intervened.

The entire board had to resign, and the successors where told to sell at least 80% of the shares of the ship. Unfortunately they could not find any interested parties. Due to the sunk costs they did not stop the project, but it did lead to further resignations. It even led to a parliamentary enquiry, which are a big deal in the Netherlands.

What I am trying to say here, is that the SSR should not be used as a shining example of ship preservation. And the SSR is a pretty small and low-tech vessel compared to some of the behemoths you want to see preserved.

The construction of the Sydney Opera House also saw a number of scandals and cost overruns in circumstances similar to the conversion of the SS Rotterdam and this led to the architect John Utzon resigning. Since it was completed, the opera house has become a success.
https://www.eoi.es/blogs/cristinagarcia ... t-failure/
 
bennett123
Posts: 10816
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: Cruise Ship/Ocean Liner Thread -2021

Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:16 pm

Given the supposed demand for old cruise ships to be turned into hotels or museums, why have all these ships been scrapped?.
.
 
ArchGuy1
Posts: 1910
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:35 pm

Re: Cruise Ship/Ocean Liner Thread -2021

Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:21 pm

bennett123 wrote:
Given the supposed demand for old cruise ships to be turned into hotels or museums, why have all these ships been scrapped?.
.

Cash for cruise lines and it was the same with old Penn Station in New York City back in 1964 when it was demolished so that the Pennsylvania Railroad could get needed revenue.
 
johns624
Posts: 3784
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Cruise Ship/Ocean Liner Thread -2021

Wed Jan 13, 2021 12:05 am

ArchGuy1 wrote:
FGITD wrote:
What’s equally confusing is that I’ve read a few different sources for the “outcry” that all seem to be copy/pasted from each other, seemingly originating on one blog with no primary source.. And there’s no actual evidence that the alleged outcry did anything to save the SS Rotterdam. It just seems there was more desire and more importantly, funding, put up for Rotterdam

Here is a source to back up my claims about the outcry that was seen with the SS Nieuw Amsterdam being scrapped.
http://ssmaritime.com/nieuwamsterdam-II.htm
That is a secondary source. It's just one person writing something on their website. In legal terms, I believe that would be "hearsay". A real source would be newspaper articles and editorials from back when it was actually happening.
 
ArchGuy1
Posts: 1910
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:35 pm

Re: Cruise Ship/Ocean Liner Thread -2021

Wed Jan 13, 2021 12:10 am

johns624 wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
FGITD wrote:
What’s equally confusing is that I’ve read a few different sources for the “outcry” that all seem to be copy/pasted from each other, seemingly originating on one blog with no primary source.. And there’s no actual evidence that the alleged outcry did anything to save the SS Rotterdam. It just seems there was more desire and more importantly, funding, put up for Rotterdam

Here is a source to back up my claims about the outcry that was seen with the SS Nieuw Amsterdam being scrapped.
http://ssmaritime.com/nieuwamsterdam-II.htm
That is a secondary source. It's just one person writing something on their website. In legal terms, I believe that would be "hearsay". A real source would be newspaper articles and editorials from back when it was actually happening.

The person who wrote this is a cruise/shipping industry expert who has been in the industry since 1960.
 
johns624
Posts: 3784
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Cruise Ship/Ocean Liner Thread -2021

Wed Jan 13, 2021 12:57 am

ArchGuy1 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
Here is a source to back up my claims about the outcry that was seen with the SS Nieuw Amsterdam being scrapped.
http://ssmaritime.com/nieuwamsterdam-II.htm
That is a secondary source. It's just one person writing something on their website. In legal terms, I believe that would be "hearsay". A real source would be newspaper articles and editorials from back when it was actually happening.

The person who wrote this is a cruise/shipping industry expert who has been in the industry since 1960.
It's still a secondhand source. Why are you so concerned with saving ships that you've never seen or been aboard?
 
ArchGuy1
Posts: 1910
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:35 pm

Re: Cruise Ship/Ocean Liner Thread -2021

Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:38 am

johns624 wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
That is a secondary source. It's just one person writing something on their website. In legal terms, I believe that would be "hearsay". A real source would be newspaper articles and editorials from back when it was actually happening.

The person who wrote this is a cruise/shipping industry expert who has been in the industry since 1960.
It's still a secondhand source. Why are you so concerned with saving ships that you've never seen or been aboard?

Because I read about them and I have seen the Queen Mary and been on the USS Lexington.
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 7

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: extender, lentokone and 29 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos