Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 13
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 25751
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

Re: Brexit part XI: 2021

Fri Jan 01, 2021 8:04 pm

Klaus wrote:
while Brexit was little more than false hopes of an Empire 2.0 and a carefully stoked (if completely futile) desire to get rid of all those pesky furriners.



Although not exactly factually correct. I know EU nationals who had a vote in the UK referendum who voted out. Very hard to generalise its like saying everyone who voted remain were non whites.
I know you like the dramatic side of things but maybe time to stop the mass generalisations.
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 1164
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: Brexit part XI: 2021

Fri Jan 01, 2021 8:24 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Klaus wrote:
You can put your straw woman away again: The UK is actually late to this party, and it's got little to do with the EU, as usual with brexiter claims:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tampon_tax


Am I wrong? Can an EU member state put no taxes on female sanitary products?


Ireland has zero taxes on that reportedly?
Are they no EU state then?


Ireland levies no value-added tax on tampons, panty liners, and sanitary towels. Ireland is the only EU country to have a zero tax rate on sanitary goods. While other European Union countries are barred from creating zero-rated value added taxes, Ireland's exemptions are grandfathered.


I am still awaiting for Klaus to explain why they are non essential items. I fear a long wait.
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 25751
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

Re: Brexit part XI: 2021

Fri Jan 01, 2021 8:28 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:


I am still awaiting for Klaus to explain why they are non essential items. I fear a long wait.


Yes I was hoping for Klaus to respond to the link I provided and why he came to that opinion about the claims he made. It seems a point is made its then challenged with facts and then its never answered. Just the same old stuff about empires and Englanders. Its like a series of Allo Allo !
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 3713
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

Re: Brexit part XI: 2021

Fri Jan 01, 2021 8:34 pm

OA260 wrote:
Maybe its time for all of us to go back to buy more local and spend a bit more for quality and to support local business and high streets.


In German they say "Erst kommt das Fressen dann kommt die Moral"

https://www.dict.cc/german-english/Erst ... ht%5D.html

While I agree with you in principle, I also acknowledge that not everybody has the means to be highly selective at his supermarket.
For many people food is just a basic commodity, while for a significant portion of them price is the main driver behind their purchase behaviour.
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 3713
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

Re: Brexit part XI: 2021

Fri Jan 01, 2021 8:43 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

Am I wrong? Can an EU member state put no taxes on female sanitary products?


Ireland has zero taxes on that reportedly?
Are they no EU state then?


Ireland levies no value-added tax on tampons, panty liners, and sanitary towels. Ireland is the only EU country to have a zero tax rate on sanitary goods. While other European Union countries are barred from creating zero-rated value added taxes, Ireland's exemptions are grandfathered.


I am still awaiting for Klaus to explain why they are non essential items. I fear a long wait.


So, you CAN have zero value-added tax on these essential items as an EU country after all then?

Since Ireland and the UK joined the EU TOGETHER in 1973, it means that either:
1) the UK had taxes on sanitary goods prior to them joining the EU and then it doesn't have to pretend it's due to the EU, it predates it and was of its own choice
2) the UK had no problem with the tax upon joining the EU, since they didn't negotiate a similar opt out as the ROI did... again by its own choice.
Which one was it? Anyone with historic insight in the matter to clear this up?

But just out of interest: what is the UKs tax rate on water, on food, gas, electricity?
Are these not essential then? Or is government just being selective here, because this one tax has once been used as an emblematic tax by Brexiteers?
Go ahead and abolish VAT on ALL essential products then: food, water, electricity, gas...
Let's ruin the budget even more, shall we? ;)
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 3713
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

Re: Brexit part XI: 2021

Fri Jan 01, 2021 9:06 pm

Meanwhile it emerged the EU explicitly let out not 1 but 2 British disputed territories from its deal with the UK.
Next to Gibraltar which threw itself in the arms of Spain and the EU in order to save itself at the very last minute, it now becomes clear the Falklands Islands were also left out and are in fact the only place in the UK where the 'no deal' brexit will actually take effect as the UK government was unable/unwilling to bring them back into the deal.

This means that as from today, seafood products from the Falkland Islands entering the EU will be subject to the Common External Tariff of between 6 and 18%, percent.

The situation for the Falkland Islands is crucial since fisheries contribute with some 90% of the islands exports, and represent 40% of its GDP and some 60% of the treasury's revenue.

https://en.mercopress.com/2020/12/28/fa ... -agreement

It becomes ever more clear by the minute this deal is a very onesided and highly advantageous deal for the EU as it safeguards their trade surplus in goods with GB, while it does little for the UK but avoid massive and immediate price increases for British consumers due to WTO-tariffs having to be levied. Other than that, none of the UK demands have been met: no deal on services, no deal on finances (both of which the UK runs a trade surplus with the EU), an assymetic deal on fisheries which sees EU vessels continue to have access to the 6 to 12 mile coastal zone in UK waters while UK vessels are expelled from EU coasts completely, a seperate and humbling bilateral deal with Spain on Gibraltar, a humiliating snub of the Falklands even.
The list grows longer by the day almost!

No wonder BoJo dragged his feet till the last week of 2020 in order to rush it through parliament in less than 24 hours then, all without much scrutiny possible.
The more of the explanatory annexes to the treaty is understood, the more of a sellout it all becomes;..
Last edited by sabenapilot on Fri Jan 01, 2021 9:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 14831
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Brexit part XI: 2021

Fri Jan 01, 2021 9:06 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Woman in the UK already better off with the removal of VAT on sanitary products.

Not sure why the EU class these as non-essential.


Apparently it's going to be possible in the EU in 2022.

The reason is that women don't have enough power. Even when they are in charge, they act like men.

If an EU country would decide to do the same unilaterally, the EU wouldn't do anything about it, I would bet.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 14831
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Brexit part XI: 2021

Fri Jan 01, 2021 9:30 pm

Boeing74741R wrote:
What I do expect to happen though is they will be subject to the Copenhagen Criteria for EU accession just like any other candidate country such as those already in the process. How long it would take to satisfy that criteria is an interesting question. One thing Scotland would need to do is either form a formal currency deal to keep the pound (not guaranteed) or launch their own currency with their own central bank...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ntral-bank


The only solution is to go with the Euro. Going for their own currency would be a disaster, its value would crash instantly. Unless maybe if it was pegged to the Euro, in which case it's basically the Euro.

Also even if a deal was struck to keep the UK Pound, the EU would probably object to it. Having countries with their own currency in the EU is one thing, but a currency controlled by a country outside the Union ?

sabenapilot wrote:
The end date for the service was initially set for spring this year, but was brought forward by P&O to coincide with the end of the transition period.

Real pitty to see this go, because I've taken the route a few times: ideal way to go directly to the North and Scotland without the need to drive up from Dover, offering a comfortable bed for the night spent on board. Always good value for money. C'est la vie.


I've taken it as a kid for a school trip to Scotland, that way we kept the same coach and driver from Paris' suburbs to Linlithgow and then on to various points in Scotland.
 
Klaus
Posts: 21638
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Re: Brexit part XI: 2021

Fri Jan 01, 2021 10:01 pm

OA260 wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:


I am still awaiting for Klaus to explain why they are non essential items. I fear a long wait.


Yes I was hoping for Klaus to respond to the link I provided and why he came to that opinion about the claims he made. It seems a point is made its then challenged with facts and then its never answered. Just the same old stuff about empires and Englanders. Its like a series of Allo Allo !

In Germany female hygiene products have the same lowest-possible VAT as flour, rice or milk and those are also officially deemed products of immediate necessity, and the social system of course accounts for this (with plenty of room for improvement, but still).

What's your actual point supposed to be?
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 1164
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: Brexit part XI: 2021

Fri Jan 01, 2021 10:52 pm

Klaus wrote:
OA260 wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:


I am still awaiting for Klaus to explain why they are non essential items. I fear a long wait.


Yes I was hoping for Klaus to respond to the link I provided and why he came to that opinion about the claims he made. It seems a point is made its then challenged with facts and then its never answered. Just the same old stuff about empires and Englanders. Its like a series of Allo Allo !

In Germany female hygiene products have the same lowest-possible VAT as flour, rice or milk and those are also officially deemed products of immediate necessity, and the social system of course accounts for this (with plenty of room for improvement, but still).

What's your actual point supposed to be?


Why the EU feels the need to insist on VAT to be applied
 
Klaus
Posts: 21638
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Re: Brexit part XI: 2021

Fri Jan 01, 2021 11:08 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Klaus wrote:
OA260 wrote:

Yes I was hoping for Klaus to respond to the link I provided and why he came to that opinion about the claims he made. It seems a point is made its then challenged with facts and then its never answered. Just the same old stuff about empires and Englanders. Its like a series of Allo Allo !

In Germany female hygiene products have the same lowest-possible VAT as flour, rice or milk and those are also officially deemed products of immediate necessity, and the social system of course accounts for this (with plenty of room for improvement, but still).

What's your actual point supposed to be?


Why the EU feels the need to insist on VAT to be applied

Consistency cross the union, at least to some degree and in part so all countries have the infrastructure for cross-border VAT handling.

An adjusted fraction of national VAT revenue is also one of the EU budget sources.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_of ... _resources[11]

But exceptions for specific products can exist, and this will be included as far as I'm aware.
 
Bostrom
Posts: 1119
Joined: Tue Feb 02, 2016 7:11 pm

Re: Brexit part XI: 2021

Sat Jan 02, 2021 12:18 am

OA260 wrote:
The British and Irish produce for beef/dairy are among the best in the world anyway so its not as if we are being forced to have inferior produce.


Can anyone remind me, which European country had a huge BSE (mad cow disease) outbreak that actually forced the EU to abandon the principle of the single market and ban beef exports from that country to the rest of EU?
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 25751
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

Re: Brexit part XI: 2021

Sat Jan 02, 2021 12:37 am

Bostrom wrote:
OA260 wrote:
The British and Irish produce for beef/dairy are among the best in the world anyway so its not as if we are being forced to have inferior produce.


Can anyone remind me, which European country had a huge BSE (mad cow disease) outbreak that actually forced the EU to abandon the principle of the single market and ban beef exports from that country to the rest of EU?


You mean the 80’s/90’s?
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 11532
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Brexit part XI: 2021

Sat Jan 02, 2021 12:50 am

Why do some here seem to want the UK to suffer and/or be harmed? Posters seem to gloat at the idea the UK struggle, in my opinion.

The reality is that the UK will be fine. Just like the EU. Different but not much so.

I wish the UK much success in the coming years. And no less so the EU.

Tugg
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 25751
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

Re: Brexit part XI: 2021

Sat Jan 02, 2021 12:56 am

Tugger wrote:
Why do some here seem to want the UK to suffer and/or be harmed? Posters seem to gloat at the idea the UK struggle, in my opinion.

The reality is that the UK will be fine. Just like the EU. Different but not much so.

I wish the UK much success in the coming years. And no less so the EU.

Tugg


Exactly they are actually guilty of being the type of people they accuse hardline Brexiteers of being. The irony is huge. One just has to look back on 4 years of the same posters to see the bitterness and hate. As a European its shameful we have such citizens in the EU. Yet defending the idea of the EU and peace and friendship .
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 14831
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Brexit part XI: 2021

Sat Jan 02, 2021 1:09 am

Hate begets hate. We can't all be Jesus and turn the other cheek. I don't think the UK will suffer terribly and it wouldn't be a good thing for anybody anyway, but I see no way it can stay as competitive either, especially with the current government unable to invest in what matters (education, research, infrastructure) for ideological reasons.

An example is the aforementioned ferry line, apparently it has just lost its subsidy from the government, that's why it's being terminated...
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 25751
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

Re: Brexit part XI: 2021

Sat Jan 02, 2021 1:29 am

Aesma wrote:
An example is the aforementioned ferry line, apparently it has just lost its subsidy from the government, that's why it's being terminated...


P&O Ferries announced in October it would close the route to the Belgian port due to a drop in demand because of coronavirus.

www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-england-humber-55252036

Do governments now have to subsidise every regional ferry route or air route . COVID has destroyed many business operations. Maybe it will return one day in the meantime Hull - Rotterdam.
 
chimborazo
Posts: 446
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:51 pm

Re: Brexit part XI: 2021

Sat Jan 02, 2021 1:59 am

If Scotland do get another referendum in the coming years and the vote is to leave the UK, they’d better hope the EU let them join the same day. Because even one month of the SNP running the finances after they leave the UK and lose the disproportionate share of UK tax per capita will show they would be no better than Greece.
Good luck to the Scots if they want to leave the UK... I’m all for self determination etc. It amuses me that so many on here can’t see the irony of Brexit = bad but Scotland independent = good (because they can rejoin the EU. But failing to account that Scotland will rapidly become an economically failed state if it left the UK).
I do understand the resentment of Remainers about Brexit but it’s happening. And there is notable glee about UK not getting a great deal... and yet Scotland and the EU supporters seem to think Scotland would leave the Union in a great position. It wouldn’t. The tap would be turned off immediately they went their own way.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 14831
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Brexit part XI: 2021

Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:03 am

I don't know, but if the government expects the economy to bounce back quickly once the virus is under control, it might be a good idea to give a lifeline to as many people and companies as possible.

I include all countries in this of course, for example my president, Macron, repeats quite often that everything possible is done to protect jobs, "whatever the cost". In practice less companies have failed than in normal times, so far.
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 25751
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

Re: Brexit part XI: 2021

Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:11 am

Aesma wrote:
I don't know, but if the government expects the economy to bounce back quickly once the virus is under control, it might be a good idea to give a lifeline to as many people and companies as possible.

I include all countries in this of course, for example my president, Macron, repeats quite often that everything possible is done to protect jobs, "whatever the cost". In practice less companies have failed than in normal times, so far.


I agree with you where the business case is there but its not. The arguments Ive seen for keeping it are that its closer to Eurodisney ! I mean seriously ? We are in a pandemic and lockdowns most likely until March and they expect a route to be saved to enable COVID parties with Mickey Mousse. Its bizarre.

“” One said there had been lack of thought for Disneyland Paris “”

www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/politics/m ... 070561?amp
 
prebennorholm
Posts: 7173
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2000 6:25 am

Re: Brexit part XI: 2021

Sat Jan 02, 2021 3:37 am

Aesma wrote:
I don't know, but if the government expects the economy to bounce back quickly once the virus is under control, it might be a good idea to give a lifeline to as many people and companies as possible.

I include all countries in this of course, for example my president, Macron, repeats quite often that everything possible is done to protect jobs, "whatever the cost". In practice less companies have failed than in normal times, so far.

P&O Ferries is registered in Britain, but 100% owned by DP World in Dubai (Dubai Ports World) which in turn is owned by the UAE government.

There is no UK incentive to throw money at Dubai. And there is no UAE incentive to save jobs in the UK. Or anywhere in Europe.

There is, however, a Dubai incentive to shrink their participation in a shrinking market - shipping between the UK and continental Europe.

UK politicians are showing anger. They were not told anything. They read it on Twitter. They lack an address to deliver their anger. They don't know the Dubai phone number.

It's called "Globalization" by some people. Other people are more specific and call it "Loss of control".
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 10417
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Brexit part XI: 2021

Sat Jan 02, 2021 7:38 am

Tugger wrote:
Why do some here seem to want the UK to suffer and/or be harmed? Posters seem to gloat at the idea the UK struggle, in my opinion.

The reality is that the UK will be fine. Just like the EU. Different but not much so.

I wish the UK much success in the coming years. And no less so the EU.

Tugg


The UK has the chance to do much better than the EU, with full control of the country being in the hands of the UK again. All it needs is the daring to actually leave all of the EU behind and walk into a modern future.
 
AeroVega
Posts: 374
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:32 pm

Re: Brexit part XI: 2021

Sat Jan 02, 2021 9:07 am

Tugger wrote:
Why do some here seem to want the UK to suffer and/or be harmed?


That question would make an interesting topic for a study in psychology. My guess is that some some Europhiles see Brexit as a personal insult to their own identity.
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 3713
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

Re: Brexit part XI: 2021

Sat Jan 02, 2021 9:44 am

Tugger wrote:
Why do some here seem to want the UK to suffer and/or be harmed? Posters seem to gloat at the idea the UK struggle, in my opinion.

The reality is that the UK will be fine. Just like the EU. Different but not much so.

I wish the UK much success in the coming years. And no less so the EU.

Tugg


I don't know if many people in the EU want to harm the UK?
I think Brexit in itself is already harmful enough (about 0.5% less annual GDP growth for the rest of the decade by the UK Governments own assessment) not to add insult to the self-inflicted injury, especially since the UK is heavily interwoven with the EU's economy.

What is a fact is that many in the EU have taken great offence at the grotesque insults coming from officials in the UK, notably duing the negotiating process.
At no point in time -and especially not after the referendum-has the EU in any way behaved in a way to justify this kind of wartime-like behaviour.
The EU has said from the start it regrets yet respects the decision of the UK and wanted to negotiate an orderly departure, while defending its own interests.
What has happened is that the UK descended into an almost tribal infight at home between remain and leave over what Brexit should actually mean, a bemused political drama to which the rest of the world was merely a bewildered observer, with Brexiteers taking to the stage doubling down on their pre-referendum claims and insults of the EU which they forgot had now become a soon-to-be foreign partner of their country and should thus be treated with the usual diplomatic respect granted to other nations and international institutions too. The EU and the UK were not at war, and have no intention of doing so I should hope, after all?
No politician talks about a foreign leader (not even one of a different political leaning than his own) in the same way as he can talk about domestic opposition: it's just not done and it stirs controvery as it is rightfully seen as a needless diplomatic insult to a foreign nation. You do not insult foreign nations, especially not those you are in the process of negotiating with! In the Brexit debate that red line was repeatedly crossed by Brexiteers, who clearly had problems adapting to the new reality that in future, they'll have to take a much more neutral and even outright positive attititude to the EU, believe it or not.
 
Fco1967
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:01 pm

Re: Brexit part XI: 2021

Sat Jan 02, 2021 10:26 am

Best of luck to the UK.
As a british educated italian I think they made a good choice,time will tell!
I see so much acrimony from eurodreamers on this forum,they seem like the teenager after a bad date.
Let us europeans just go back to watching the wonderful politics in Brussels and respect our neighbours.
And UK will always be Europe,geographical fact!
EU is a young invention created by (mediocre imho)people and since then I only see disasters!
Greece has been humiliated and Italy is going same way while politicians have easy time blaming 'Europe'!
 
vrbarreto
Posts: 421
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 8:22 am

Re: Brexit part XI: 2021

Sat Jan 02, 2021 10:49 am

OA260 wrote:
Klaus wrote:
while Brexit was little more than false hopes of an Empire 2.0 and a carefully stoked (if completely futile) desire to get rid of all those pesky furriners.



Although not exactly factually correct. I know EU nationals who had a vote in the UK referendum who voted out. Very hard to generalise its like saying everyone who voted remain were non whites.
I know you like the dramatic side of things but maybe time to stop the mass generalisations.


Er.. The only EU nationals who could could vote in the referendum were those who had dual nationality with the UK or were citizens of Ireland or a Commonwealth country. So a citizen of India could vote in the EU referendum but someone from the mainland who had perhaps lived for their entire lives in the UK could not..
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 25751
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

Re: Brexit part XI: 2021

Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:23 am

vrbarreto wrote:
OA260 wrote:
Klaus wrote:
while Brexit was little more than false hopes of an Empire 2.0 and a carefully stoked (if completely futile) desire to get rid of all those pesky furriners.



Although not exactly factually correct. I know EU nationals who had a vote in the UK referendum who voted out. Very hard to generalise its like saying everyone who voted remain were non whites.
I know you like the dramatic side of things but maybe time to stop the mass generalisations.


Er.. The only EU nationals who could could vote in the referendum were those who had dual nationality with the UK or were citizens of Ireland or a Commonwealth country. So a citizen of India could vote in the EU referendum but someone from the mainland who had perhaps lived for their entire lives in the UK could not..


Er. Half of my friends are dual EU nationals living in the UK not really a surprise given the ethnic diversity of the country is it! Unless you live in a bubble. Not many Irish in the UK either are there ;)
 
vrbarreto
Posts: 421
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 8:22 am

Re: Brexit part XI: 2021

Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:31 am

OA260 wrote:
vrbarreto wrote:
OA260 wrote:

Although not exactly factually correct. I know EU nationals who had a vote in the UK referendum who voted out. Very hard to generalise its like saying everyone who voted remain were non whites.
I know you like the dramatic side of things but maybe time to stop the mass generalisations.


Er.. The only EU nationals who could could vote in the referendum were those who had dual nationality with the UK or were citizens of Ireland or a Commonwealth country. So a citizen of India could vote in the EU referendum but someone from the mainland who had perhaps lived for their entire lives in the UK could not..


Er. Half of my friends are dual EU nationals living in the UK not really a surprise given the ethnic diversity of the country is it! Unless you live in a bubble. Not many Irish in the UK either are there ;)


Yeah so UK nationals as well and Irish nationals as well who'd still have the same rights in the Uk as the EU.. So hardly a ringing endorsement of your 'I know EU nationals who voted for Brexit as well' as you well know that they were Uk nationals as well.. Also being dual nationals, none of them would lose the privileges of being a EU citizen but were more than willing to deny it to citizens of the UK.. Got it.
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 25751
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

Re: Brexit part XI: 2021

Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:34 am

Fco1967 wrote:
Best of luck to the UK.
As a british educated italian I think they made a good choice,time will tell!
I see so much acrimony from eurodreamers on this forum,they seem like the teenager after a bad date.
Let us europeans just go back to watching the wonderful politics in Brussels and respect our neighbours.
And UK will always be Europe,geographical fact!
EU is a young invention created by (mediocre imho)people and since then I only see disasters!
Greece has been humiliated and Italy is going same way while politicians have easy time blaming 'Europe'!


Many across the Continent are feeling the same the danger happens when they get belittled and put down by Western European rich states. When people start to think they are only in the EU because currently its the lesser of two evils then something is wrong. Once upon a time there was a Union of nations in the Adriatic called Yugoslavia !



Italy threatens complaint against Germany after Merkel gets 10 times the number of vaccines

A ROW is brewing within the European Union after it emerged Germany had received more doses of the Pfizer-BioNTech covid vaccine than any other countries under a roll-out scheme designed to ensure all member states were treated equally.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/137 ... -programme


EU offers 'heartfelt apology' to Italy over coronavirus response

Ursula von der Leyen voices regret as expert warns herd immunity still a way off in Europe

''“Too many were not there on time when Italy needed a helping hand at the very beginning,” Ursula von der Leyen told the European parliament. “And yes, for that it is right that Europe as a whole offers a heartfelt apology.”

Early in the crisis, both France and Germany imposed export bans on vital medical equipment, while no EU country initially responded to Italy’s call for aid via the bloc’s emergency mechanism. While healthcare policy and provision is the responsibility of member states, the EU is meant to support cooperation between them.''

www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/16/e ... d-immunity

So much for helping another EU member in a national crisis. It stinks !
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 25751
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

Re: Brexit part XI: 2021

Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:42 am

vrbarreto wrote:
OA260 wrote:
vrbarreto wrote:

Er.. The only EU nationals who could could vote in the referendum were those who had dual nationality with the UK or were citizens of Ireland or a Commonwealth country. So a citizen of India could vote in the EU referendum but someone from the mainland who had perhaps lived for their entire lives in the UK could not..


Er. Half of my friends are dual EU nationals living in the UK not really a surprise given the ethnic diversity of the country is it! Unless you live in a bubble. Not many Irish in the UK either are there ;)


Yeah so UK nationals as well and Irish nationals as well who'd still have the same rights in the Uk as the EU.. So hardly a ringing endorsement of your 'I know EU nationals who voted for Brexit as well' as you well know that they were Uk nationals as well.. Also being dual nationals, none of them would lose the privileges of being a EU citizen but were more than willing to deny it to citizens of the UK.. Got it.


Thats what the law is and if you want to change voting rights write to your MP and campaign for it ! So my point stands despite what you personal opinion is of whats right or wrong. Maybe read your post again and my response. You were the one who said ''Er . The only EU nationals who could vote in the referendum were those who had dual nationality with the UK or were citizens of Ireland or a Commonwealth country.'' As if they were a small amount. As I said contact your MP if its that much of a issue for you.
 
vrbarreto
Posts: 421
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 8:22 am

Re: Brexit part XI: 2021

Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:49 am

OA260 wrote:
vrbarreto wrote:
OA260 wrote:

Er. Half of my friends are dual EU nationals living in the UK not really a surprise given the ethnic diversity of the country is it! Unless you live in a bubble. Not many Irish in the UK either are there ;)


Yeah so UK nationals as well and Irish nationals as well who'd still have the same rights in the Uk as the EU.. So hardly a ringing endorsement of your 'I know EU nationals who voted for Brexit as well' as you well know that they were Uk nationals as well.. Also being dual nationals, none of them would lose the privileges of being a EU citizen but were more than willing to deny it to citizens of the UK.. Got it.


Thats what the law is and if you want to change voting rights write to your MP and campaign for it ! So my point stands despite what you personal opinion is of whats right or wrong. Maybe read your post again and my response. You were the one who said ''Er . The only EU nationals who could vote in the referendum were those who had dual nationality with the UK or were citizens of Ireland or a Commonwealth country.'' As if they were a small amount. As I said contact your MP if its that much of a issue for you.


Actually I can't as a British citizen living in the EU.. But please do thank your friends for taking away my Eu citizenship...
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 25751
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

Re: Brexit part XI: 2021

Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:55 am

vrbarreto wrote:
OA260 wrote:
vrbarreto wrote:

Yeah so UK nationals as well and Irish nationals as well who'd still have the same rights in the Uk as the EU.. So hardly a ringing endorsement of your 'I know EU nationals who voted for Brexit as well' as you well know that they were Uk nationals as well.. Also being dual nationals, none of them would lose the privileges of being a EU citizen but were more than willing to deny it to citizens of the UK.. Got it.


Thats what the law is and if you want to change voting rights write to your MP and campaign for it ! So my point stands despite what you personal opinion is of whats right or wrong. Maybe read your post again and my response. You were the one who said ''Er . The only EU nationals who could vote in the referendum were those who had dual nationality with the UK or were citizens of Ireland or a Commonwealth country.'' As if they were a small amount. As I said contact your MP if its that much of a issue for you.


Actually I can't as a British citizen living in the EU.. But please do thank your friends for taking away my Eu citizenship...


As a UK citizen living in the EU maybe time to apply to become a dual national ;). Like many have done. If it means so much to you personally .
 
User avatar
Loew
Posts: 164
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 10:00 pm

Re: Brexit part XI: 2021

Sat Jan 02, 2021 12:14 pm

OA260 wrote:
Bostrom wrote:
OA260 wrote:
The British and Irish produce for beef/dairy are among the best in the world anyway so its not as if we are being forced to have inferior produce.


Can anyone remind me, which European country had a huge BSE (mad cow disease) outbreak that actually forced the EU to abandon the principle of the single market and ban beef exports from that country to the rest of EU?


You mean the 80’s/90’s?


More like 2020 in the case of the USA, or 2006 for the EU.
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-54347426

As for the product itself, 15% get exported, out of which 90% go to the EU, out of which IE and NL accounted for 65%.
https://britishmeatindustry.org/industr ... beef-veal/

Since the British meat industry is unable to comply with EU´s safety and health requirements, meat export to the EU is expected to come to a halt.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/busi ... 75212.html

Enjoy your beef.
Last edited by Loew on Sat Jan 02, 2021 12:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 25751
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

Re: Brexit part XI: 2021

Sat Jan 02, 2021 12:19 pm

Loew wrote:
OA260 wrote:
Bostrom wrote:

Can anyone remind me, which European country had a huge BSE (mad cow disease) outbreak that actually forced the EU to abandon the principle of the single market and ban beef exports from that country to the rest of EU?


You mean the 80’s/90’s?


More like 2020.
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-54347426


So the beef scandal meant it was unsafe to eat beef in 2010/2015/2020? By your own article it states the outbreak started in 1996 and its the ban that has been lifted by the US. If you want to find a list of food scandals around the EU its not hard to find. It was Irish food safety experts that picked up the EU horse meat scandal.
 
bennett123
Posts: 10879
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: Brexit part XI: 2021

Sat Jan 02, 2021 12:37 pm

Given how much of the BREXIT debate revolved around fishing, this article is quite interesting;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/52420116
 
94717
Posts: 2789
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Brexit part XI: 2021

Sat Jan 02, 2021 12:41 pm

OA260 wrote:
Fco1967 wrote:
Best of luck to the UK.
As a british educated italian I think they made a good choice,time will tell!
I see so much acrimony from eurodreamers on this forum,they seem like the teenager after a bad date.
Let us europeans just go back to watching the wonderful politics in Brussels and respect our neighbours.
And UK will always be Europe,geographical fact!
EU is a young invention created by (mediocre imho)people and since then I only see disasters!
Greece has been humiliated and Italy is going same way while politicians have easy time blaming 'Europe'!


Many across the Continent are feeling the same the danger happens when they get belittled and put down by Western European rich states. When people start to think they are only in the EU because currently its the lesser of two evils then something is wrong. Once upon a time there was a Union of nations in the Adriatic called Yugoslavia !



Italy threatens complaint against Germany after Merkel gets 10 times the number of vaccines

A ROW is brewing within the European Union after it emerged Germany had received more doses of the Pfizer-BioNTech covid vaccine than any other countries under a roll-out scheme designed to ensure all member states were treated equally.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/137 ... -programme


EU offers 'heartfelt apology' to Italy over coronavirus response

Ursula von der Leyen voices regret as expert warns herd immunity still a way off in Europe

''“Too many were not there on time when Italy needed a helping hand at the very beginning,” Ursula von der Leyen told the European parliament. “And yes, for that it is right that Europe as a whole offers a heartfelt apology.”

Early in the crisis, both France and Germany imposed export bans on vital medical equipment, while no EU country initially responded to Italy’s call for aid via the bloc’s emergency mechanism. While healthcare policy and provision is the responsibility of member states, the EU is meant to support cooperation between them.''

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/a ... d-immunity

So much for helping another EU member in a national crisis. It stinks !


I have been working with Information security for the last 25 years. This problem has been known for many years. In my industry we discussed how for example handle cloud services outside my country (Sweden) in case of major disaster. Can Sweden force let say Germany or USA to give critical service if let say a critical application run in their country? I would say no.

But, I see that íf for example cloud services shall be used for critical applications we (Sweden) need EU law to handle this. In this crisis we saw that the help to Italy was a national problem and support will not be forced between countries when we have a disaster. This need to be agreed before the crisis. In my view EU like USA is between USA states is the only long term answer.

In this covid crisis I doubt that Eu would had been able to agree with economical funding to Spain and Italy if UK was still a member. I blame my own country Sweden for not standing up directly supporting the budget, but with UK as a member it would never had happened.

With UK outside EU EU will probably either break up in two or pretty fast become a union of Europe like USA is the next generations. I believe to give answers to the big questions like climate change, crisis handling and military defense post NATO (The Atlantic alliance seems to be about to break).

We today 100 years after the great war must realize that we head for a very unstable time.
 
sbworcs
Posts: 845
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2005 11:19 pm

Re: Brexit part XI: 2021

Sat Jan 02, 2021 12:52 pm

I voted to remain and still wish the situation was different

There are several calls for people to get over it, move on etc. I will move on and accept that Brexit was a good idea when ALL the benefits promised at the 2016 referendum are realised - until then surely it has been a failure?
 
94717
Posts: 2789
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Brexit part XI: 2021

Sat Jan 02, 2021 12:55 pm

I actually think that the Covid crisis handling and EU is a very interesting case;

UK Brexiteers and also as shown here at A.Net the national vs national handling of crisis handling use this as an example why EU do not work.

If the people had been more educated in the limits of EU and what powers the EU nations including UK in the past while UK was one of the nation avoiding giving EU powers would had understood that this was not an EU problem.

Now in the mirror we see that perhaps it should be handled on a EU level and not nation vs nation.


But this is a choice that the EU member states need to actively take decision about, it just not just happen.
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 25751
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

Re: Brexit part XI: 2021

Sat Jan 02, 2021 12:56 pm

olle wrote:
OA260 wrote:

I have been working with Information security for the last 25 years. This problem has been known for many years. In my industry we discussed how for example handle cloud services outside my country (Sweden) in case of major disaster. Can Sweden force let say Germany or USA to give critical service if let say a critical application run in their country? I would say no.

But, I see that íf for example cloud services shall be used for critical applications we (Sweden) need EU law to handle this. In this crisis we saw that the help to Italy was a national problem and support will not be forced between countries when we have a disaster. This need to be agreed before the crisis. In my view EU like USA is between USA states is the only long term answer.

In this covid crisis I doubt that Eu would had been able to agree with economical funding to Spain and Italy if UK was still a member. I blame my own country Sweden for not standing up directly supporting the budget, but with UK as a member it would never had happened.

With UK outside EU EU will probably either break up in two or pretty fast become a union of Europe like USA is the next generations. I believe to give answers to the big questions like climate change, crisis handling and military defense post NATO (The Atlantic alliance seems to be about to break).

We today 100 years after the great war must realize that we head for a very unstable time.


The test for the EU is in times of crisis. The migrant crisis suddenly they are Greece's and Italy's problem. The COVID-19 emergency in Italy and the help system is activated and no one comes meaning many Italians are probably dead today who might have been alive. Its always too little too late. Yet we are told its a strong force to be reckoned with. It seems in times of crisis everyone puts the walls up.
Even in the Greek financial crisis we hear on here and from politicians around the EU the lazy Greeks . PIGS and from Germany let them sell the Acropolis. Its always the same from the EU . Slowly people turn away and realise they wont be bullied and belittled anymore. The sad thing is its all preventable yet like many Pro EU members say the UK will keep hurting itself because of Brexit the same it actually true of the Pro EU members.

Its time for real change. Lets see if it happens.
 
94717
Posts: 2789
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Brexit part XI: 2021

Sat Jan 02, 2021 1:04 pm

OA260 wrote:

So much for helping another EU member in a national crisis. It stinks !


OA260; Do you actually think that a EU with a UK dominated by Brexiteers policy would have been able to define a emergency budget making Italy avoiding a 1992 or 2008 style crisis.

Italy in current condition could not take more debt on the books and EU has actually stepped in against the principals of northern Europe for the first time.

When this come up I wonder in what areas except crisis, health care and defense that are connected to each other do you think that EU should take over powers from the nations?
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 25751
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

Re: Brexit part XI: 2021

Sat Jan 02, 2021 1:07 pm

olle wrote:
OA260 wrote:

So much for helping another EU member in a national crisis. It stinks !


OA260; Do you actually think that a EU with a UK dominated by Brexiteers policy would have been able to define a emergency budget making Italy avoiding a 1992 or 2008 style crisis.

Italy in current condition could not take more debt on the books and EU has actually stepped in against the principals of northern Europe for the first time.

When this come up I wonder in what areas except crisis, health care and defense that are connected to each other do you think that EU should take over powers from the nations?


You are right the UK is better out and now it is out excuses cant be made about the UK blocking this and that. So the EU must be a lot happier that now it can continue unrestricted because of the problems the UK caused. The problem is who now replaces the UK as the pariah?
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 2394
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Brexit part XI: 2021

Sat Jan 02, 2021 1:12 pm

Tugger wrote:
Why do some here seem to want the UK to suffer and/or be harmed? Posters seem to gloat at the idea the UK struggle, in my opinion.

The reality is that the UK will be fine. Just like the EU. Different but not much so.

I wish the UK much success in the coming years. And no less so the EU.

Tugg


Mostly because Brexit is driven by English (and to a lesser degree British) exceptionalism/narcissism that’s ticked enough off. It’s human nature.

Like that bright colleague you get along with who decides to stick two fingers up at you and the rest of your colleagues by insisting he’s better than all of you, that you’re idiots (throw in comparisons with Nazis and Soviets) and slaves (vassals at any rate) for staying at the company, and that it’s your fault he isn’t doing even better, which is why he’s quitting.

The (inevitable) response is “don’t let the door hit you on the way out”. Easy to forget that the vast majority of this invective has been one way for decades.

Wil everybody be fine? Sure. Were there better ways to get to the same end point? Probably. In the long term, everything is usually “fine”. It’s questionable logic - like saying attacking Pearl Harbor worked out just fine for Japan because “look at Japan now”.
 
94717
Posts: 2789
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Brexit part XI: 2021

Sat Jan 02, 2021 1:15 pm

OA260 wrote:
olle wrote:
OA260 wrote:

So much for helping another EU member in a national crisis. It stinks !


OA260; Do you actually think that a EU with a UK dominated by Brexiteers policy would have been able to define a emergency budget making Italy avoiding a 1992 or 2008 style crisis.

Italy in current condition could not take more debt on the books and EU has actually stepped in against the principals of northern Europe for the first time.

When this come up I wonder in what areas except crisis, health care and defense that are connected to each other do you think that EU should take over powers from the nations?


You are right the UK is better out and now it is out excuses cant be made about the UK blocking this and that. So the EU must be a lot happier that now it can continue unrestricted because of the problems the UK caused. The problem is who now replaces the UK as the pariah?


Netherlands, Sweden and Denmark when it comes to budget and Poland Hungary when it comes to democratic institutions ;-)
 
94717
Posts: 2789
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Brexit part XI: 2021

Sat Jan 02, 2021 1:18 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Why do some here seem to want the UK to suffer and/or be harmed? Posters seem to gloat at the idea the UK struggle, in my opinion.

The reality is that the UK will be fine. Just like the EU. Different but not much so.

I wish the UK much success in the coming years. And no less so the EU.

Tugg


Mostly because Brexit is driven by English (and to a lesser degree British) exceptionalism/narcissism that’s ticked enough off. It’s human nature.

Like that bright colleague you get along with who decides to stick two fingers up at you and the rest of your colleagues by insisting he’s better than all of you, that you’re idiots (throw in comparisons with Nazis and Soviets) and slaves (vassals at any rate) for staying at the company, and that it’s your fault he isn’t doing even better, which is why he’s quitting.

The (inevitable) response is “don’t let the door hit you on the way out”. Easy to forget that the vast majority of this invective has been one way for decades.

Wil everybody be fine? Sure. Were there better ways to get to the same end point? Probably. In the long term, everything is usually “fine”. It’s questionable logic - like saying attacking Pearl Harbor worked out just fine for Japan because “look at Japan now”.


Even in A.net and Brexit news I started to see the old Victorian say that poor and poor countries need to learn ;-) When mention Nazi and Soviet we shall remember that during Victorian rule millions of people starved to death in India while Queen Victoria was partying and exporting the food from India.

I think that yes, people and poor need to learn but the rich has a obligation to support the poor while they learning.
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 25751
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

Re: Brexit part XI: 2021

Sat Jan 02, 2021 1:20 pm

vrbarreto wrote:
OA260 wrote:
vrbarreto wrote:

Er.. The only EU nationals who could could vote in the referendum were those who had dual nationality with the UK or were citizens of Ireland or a Commonwealth country. So a citizen of India could vote in the EU referendum but someone from the mainland who had perhaps lived for their entire lives in the UK could not..


Er. Half of my friends are dual EU nationals living in the UK not really a surprise given the ethnic diversity of the country is it! Unless you live in a bubble. Not many Irish in the UK either are there ;)


Yeah so UK nationals as well and Irish nationals as well who'd still have the same rights in the Uk as the EU.. So hardly a ringing endorsement of your 'I know EU nationals who voted for Brexit as well' as you well know that they were Uk nationals as well.. Also being dual nationals, none of them would lose the privileges of being a EU citizen but were more than willing to deny it to citizens of the UK.. Got it.


Anyone living in the EU from the UK who feels that passionate about that can apply for dual citizenship. Also if people want to change who is allowed to vote then that is something for them to lobby their MPs about if they are registered to vote in the UK. I personally believe that if you have left the UK to live in another country then you loose the right to vote. Those effected should be voting in their own new adopted country and contributing to that country and taking dual citizenship.
 
94717
Posts: 2789
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Brexit part XI: 2021

Sat Jan 02, 2021 1:23 pm

OA260 wrote:
vrbarreto wrote:
OA260 wrote:

Er. Half of my friends are dual EU nationals living in the UK not really a surprise given the ethnic diversity of the country is it! Unless you live in a bubble. Not many Irish in the UK either are there ;)


Yeah so UK nationals as well and Irish nationals as well who'd still have the same rights in the Uk as the EU.. So hardly a ringing endorsement of your 'I know EU nationals who voted for Brexit as well' as you well know that they were Uk nationals as well.. Also being dual nationals, none of them would lose the privileges of being a EU citizen but were more than willing to deny it to citizens of the UK.. Got it.


Anyone living in the EU from the UK who feels that passionate about that can apply for dual citizenship. Also if people want to change who is allowed to vote then that is something for them to lobby their MPs about if they are registered to vote in the UK. I personally believe that if you have left the UK to live in another country then you loose the right to vote. Those effected should be voting in their own new adopted country and contributing to that country and taking dual citizenship.


I am a Swede that is married to a woman from Chile. When I lived in USA and Chile I considered I was coming back to Europe and therefore wamted a say on Sweden and EU. I voted in elections.

My Wife do not consider she will live in Chile in the future while we now live in Sweden and Spain. She vote in Swedish and EU elections and but not Chile elections.
 
Bostrom
Posts: 1119
Joined: Tue Feb 02, 2016 7:11 pm

Re: Brexit part XI: 2021

Sat Jan 02, 2021 1:25 pm

OA260 wrote:
Bostrom wrote:
OA260 wrote:
The British and Irish produce for beef/dairy are among the best in the world anyway so its not as if we are being forced to have inferior produce.


Can anyone remind me, which European country had a huge BSE (mad cow disease) outbreak that actually forced the EU to abandon the principle of the single market and ban beef exports from that country to the rest of EU?


You mean the 80’s/90’s?


I think the last export restrictions were removed last year, so it is probably deemed edible again. Do you remember which country that was?
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 2394
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Brexit part XI: 2021

Sat Jan 02, 2021 1:38 pm

vrbarreto wrote:
OA260 wrote:
vrbarreto wrote:

Er.. The only EU nationals who could could vote in the referendum were those who had dual nationality with the UK or were citizens of Ireland or a Commonwealth country. So a citizen of India could vote in the EU referendum but someone from the mainland who had perhaps lived for their entire lives in the UK could not..


Er. Half of my friends are dual EU nationals living in the UK not really a surprise given the ethnic diversity of the country is it! Unless you live in a bubble. Not many Irish in the UK either are there ;)


Yeah so UK nationals as well and Irish nationals as well who'd still have the same rights in the Uk as the EU.. So hardly a ringing endorsement of your 'I know EU nationals who voted for Brexit as well' as you well know that they were Uk nationals as well.. Also being dual nationals, none of them would lose the privileges of being a EU citizen but were more than willing to deny it to citizens of the UK.. Got it.


As a general rule, Brexit is a political and values-based issue; everyone has a view on whether its good or bad. For the parts four years, posters here have worn their views on their sleeves- there’s no pretence of neutrality because the cloak will inevitably slip.

Seems we now some posters claiming to be “objective” and only interested in “facts”, before proceeding to push random anecdotes, unverifiable “just saw on TV” news reports and selective stories that support their actual, non-objective viewpoint.

The old adage applies - if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it must be a duck. Engage accordingly.
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 1164
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: Brexit part XI: 2021

Sat Jan 02, 2021 1:53 pm

Two days in and all is well.

No issues at the Border. No issues with stuff in the stores. The economy hasn’t tanked.
 
94717
Posts: 2789
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Brexit part XI: 2021

Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:02 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Two days in and all is well.

No issues at the Border. No issues with stuff in the stores. The economy hasn’t tanked.


Considering that most suppliers has been preparing for a No Deal or a very bad FTA with huge amount of paperwork by filling up warehouses in UK the last 3-4 weeks in combination with most EU highways are not allowed to be used by haulers over weekends is this surprising?

The divorce between UK and EU will not be a heart attack but rather diabetes, not a big bang but slowly. In the end the result will be the same with less economical relations UK EU executed in small company to company decisions when defining supplier chains or on individual basis when applying for a job abroad does not result because of paperwork.
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 13

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 19 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos