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bennett123
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US elections, voter fraud allegations

Sun Jan 03, 2021 2:35 pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2020-55517626

Biden election: Mike Pence 'welcomes' senators' bid to derail result

Two questions;

1. What will be the impact if this attempt is also rejected.

2. What will be the impact if it is not rejected, regardless of the outcome of this audit.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: US elections, voter fraud allegations

Sun Jan 03, 2021 3:33 pm

It will, and should, be rejected, but much electorate in both parties have doubts. It was Democrats who started denying elections in 2000, then again in 2004 calling OH was somehow fraudulent, then denying Trump’s election within hours calling for resistance as if Hitler violently invaded the country. The WaPo called for impeachment on or about Jan 20th, 2017. The OTT nonsense from all politicians has to stop.
 
art
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Re: US elections, voter fraud allegations

Sun Jan 03, 2021 4:04 pm

Have people in the US noticed that

(a) they live in a democracy
(b) in a democracy who wields power is decided by election
(c) if they approve of democracy they inherently approve of being denied power if the entity they would like to wield power loses the election concerned
 
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scbriml
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Re: US elections, voter fraud allegations

Sun Jan 03, 2021 4:11 pm

bennett123 wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2020-55517626

Biden election: Mike Pence 'welcomes' senators' bid to derail result

Two questions;

1. What will be the impact if this attempt is also rejected.

2. What will be the impact if it is not rejected, regardless of the outcome of this audit.


I don't think Pence will do anything other then read out the certified electoral votes from each state. If some republicans object to specific results, it's my understanding that will trigger a debate about the EC vote in that state which is time limited to a maximum of two hours. After the debate, both houses have to vote on it. Given the democrats have a majority in the House of Representatives, any objection is doomed to failure. All the objectors can achieve is a delay of a few hours and hope that they boost their standing with the Trump base.

Once the EC vote is ratified, I don't see any other legal or constitutional avenue open to stop Biden being inaugurated on 20th January.

All the above is my personal view from numerous articles that I've read on the subject. I am not a lawyer nor a constitutional scholar, so I could be talking out of my arse (my wife assures me it wouldn't be the first time!) ;)
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Francoflier
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Re: US elections, voter fraud allegations

Sun Jan 03, 2021 4:54 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
It will, and should, be rejected, but much electorate in both parties have doubts. It was Democrats who started denying elections in 2000, then again in 2004 calling OH was somehow fraudulent, then denying Trump’s election within hours calling for resistance as if Hitler violently invaded the country. The WaPo called for impeachment on or about Jan 20th, 2017. The OTT nonsense from all politicians has to stop.


Straight to the false equivalencies and the good old 'the other side does it too' argument, I see...

Except no, the instances you mentioned were nowhere near the scope, amplitude, severity and departure from accepted norms, integrity and decency that this blatant assault on American democracy very obviously is.

This is a President and his close collaborators doing absolutely everything they can within their power to overturn the results of an election without regards to any law, evidence, or common sense. To try and diminish and this unprecedented and odious attempt at overturning the will of the people is to try to suffocate the very deserved outrage these actions engender and to normalize this tin-pot dictator behavior.

This is unprecedented and everything should be done to make sure this never happens again. America has suffered the greatest attack against its democracy and only managed to survive it thanks to strong institutions and the decency and relative lack of corruption of the highest level of its justice system... just.
The nation still lost a lot of feathers in these last 4 years and the complete aberration and departure from the established political norms that have made this country what it is today will leave deep scars and highlight the need to strengthen it against further attacks in the future.

In that regard, attempting to sweep this repugnant administration's immoral misconduct under the carpet is as bad as supporting them.
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Aaron747
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Re: US elections, voter fraud allegations

Sun Jan 03, 2021 4:55 pm

It will be rejected and if the crazies online have any bark to their bite, there may be violence here or there over the next week. Hopefully the FBI has been putting in OT over the holidays..
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
luckyone
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Re: US elections, voter fraud allegations

Sun Jan 03, 2021 5:11 pm

bennett123 wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2020-55517626

Biden election: Mike Pence 'welcomes' senators' bid to derail result

Two questions;

1. What will be the impact if this attempt is also rejected.

2. What will be the impact if it is not rejected, regardless of the outcome of this audit.

For starters there will not be an audit for no other reason than the vote will fail both the House and there are enough Senate Republicans who recognize this is horsepuckey (Romney, Sasse, Toomey, Murkowski, and likely Collins...it’ll die).

I’m not sure that the Federal Government can mandate that states audit their elections. One of the helpful lessons gleaned from this whole farcical fundraiser is it’s pretty clear where election authority lies, and that’s with the individual states. And it’s ironic that some of the loudest “States’ Rights!” people are calling for federal interference, which is just further proof that a Republican will flip flop as quickly as a Democrat, and that their rhetoric is opium for the masses.

Also, I don’t know anybody, at this point, with a straight face can say “fraud allegations,” and not just be a moron, sycophant, or a liar. These allegations (which have been wholly a fabrication of the guy who lost) have not gone anywhere in dozens of court cases filed by Trump and his merry band of crisis actors. And it wasn’t for lack of muck thrown at the courts, to the point where there’s a chance some
of them may be disbarred.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
It will, and should, be rejected, but much electorate in both parties have doubts. It was Democrats who started denying elections in 2000, then again in 2004 calling OH was somehow fraudulent, then denying Trump’s election within hours calling for resistance as if Hitler violently invaded the country. The WaPo called for impeachment on or about Jan 20th, 2017. The OTT nonsense from all politicians has to stop.

So in other words the Republicans want to be more ridiculous than the Democrats, and they want to do it bigly? Solid.
 
phatfarmlines
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Re: US elections, voter fraud allegations

Sun Jan 03, 2021 5:55 pm

bennett123 wrote:
Biden election: Mike Pence 'welcomes' senators' bid to derail result


I've argued in the now-closed 2020 US Elections thread that January 6th will be the day we could see some action with regards to potentially overturning the election. What was unclear was Pence's stance on the issue up to this point, and it seems he played it smartly by allowing the GOP challengers to have their say on the floor, without Pence directly indicating that Trump won the election.

scbriml wrote:
I don't think Pence will do anything other then read out the certified electoral votes from each state. If some republicans object to specific results, it's my understanding that will trigger a debate about the EC vote in that state which is time limited to a maximum of two hours. After the debate, both houses have to vote on it. Given the democrats have a majority in the House of Representatives, any objection is doomed to failure. All the objectors can achieve is a delay of a few hours and hope that they boost their standing with the Trump base.


That seems to be the par for the course, though, this discussion will occur after the Senate runoff races. With Ted Cruz backing the challenge, I do think it's posturing to the Trump base at best.

How hard will the Republicans push on January 6th if they lose the Senate majority on January 5th, or will they just call it a day and start planning for 2022 and 2024?

Aaron747 wrote:
It will be rejected and if the crazies online have any bark to their bite, there may be violence here or there over the next week. Hopefully the FBI has been putting in OT over the holidays..


This I do fear, both on January 5th in Georgia and on January 6th nationwide.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: US elections, voter fraud allegations

Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:09 pm

The real election fraud is the continued and successful efforts of Republicans to block classes of voters likely to vote for the other party.
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flyguy89
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Re: US elections, voter fraud allegations

Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:25 pm

phatfarmlines wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
It will be rejected and if the crazies online have any bark to their bite, there may be violence here or there over the next week. Hopefully the FBI has been putting in OT over the holidays..


This I do fear, both on January 5th in Georgia and on January 6th nationwide.

Nah. Just like that whole thread predicting massive Trump-fueled violence after the election, a whole lot of nothing will happen. Outside of perhaps a rally here or there and a scuffle between a good ole boy and an antifa counter-protester, people will just move on with their lives and the world will keep on spinning.
 
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seb146
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Re: US elections, voter fraud allegations

Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:40 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
It will, and should, be rejected, but much electorate in both parties have doubts. It was Democrats who started denying elections in 2000, then again in 2004 calling OH was somehow fraudulent, then denying Trump’s election within hours calling for resistance as if Hitler violently invaded the country. The WaPo called for impeachment on or about Jan 20th, 2017. The OTT nonsense from all politicians has to stop.


All this except Democrats accepted the will of the people. So, clearly, both sides do not do it. And, yes, king MAGA was impeached. He was not convicted. He should be impeached again for treason for attempting this coup.

But, back to your point: Democrats stand with democracy, even when it is against them. Democrats stand with the Constitution even when it is against them.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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intsim
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Re: US elections, voter fraud allegations

Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:56 pm

Window dressing.

I want my government to protect me. I do not want to pay for that.

It is the sad state that it has come to this. This is purely hypocritical.

1. That is fine if ‘patriotic’ people want to question this. A ten day review board should answer that question yet again.

2. It shows that guilty until proven innocent is the new normal.

Thanks social media. I don’t want my tax dollars to bail out these crappy Americans when they need it most. I am not a savior.
 
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Tugger
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Re: US elections, voter fraud allegations

Sun Jan 03, 2021 8:46 pm

As I said in another thread, the important thing is that people like GalaxyFlyer will fully support such actions at the next election. They will clearly support Democrats launching numerous lawsuits in any state where they lost or Republican leaders made changes to voting rules, how polling stations were allocated, etc. And of course support those actions being pressed ad infinitum even without any evidence of a problem or any substantial illegal things occurring.

Vice president Harris supporting every action to change any result that in not desirable for Dems.

It will be nice to see the support from GalaxyFlyer and others for such actions.

In my opinion.

Tugg
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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: US elections, voter fraud allegations

Sun Jan 03, 2021 10:36 pm

seb146 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
It will, and should, be rejected, but much electorate in both parties have doubts. It was Democrats who started denying elections in 2000, then again in 2004 calling OH was somehow fraudulent, then denying Trump’s election within hours calling for resistance as if Hitler violently invaded the country. The WaPo called for impeachment on or about Jan 20th, 2017. The OTT nonsense from all politicians has to stop.


All this except Democrats accepted the will of the people. So, clearly, both sides do not do it. And, yes, king MAGA was impeached. He was not convicted. He should be impeached again for treason for attempting this coup.

But, back to your point: Democrats stand with democracy, even when it is against them. Democrats stand with the Constitution even when it is against them.


Boxer and 31 Democrat reps didn’t in January, 2005. As I’ve said, Biden won, Trump lost. Was there vote fraud, possibly. If there was did both sides play, probably. Considering in several court cases, no Republican plaintiff offered the least evidence, I’m pretty positive, there’s not a scintilla of reason to think the election was materially affected by fraud.

https://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/07/poli ... lenge.html
Last edited by GalaxyFlyer on Sun Jan 03, 2021 10:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: US elections, voter fraud allegations

Sun Jan 03, 2021 10:43 pm

Tugger wrote:
As I said in another thread, the important thing is that people like GalaxyFlyer will fully support such actions at the next election. They will clearly support Democrats launching numerous lawsuits in any state where they lost or Republican leaders made changes to voting rules, how polling stations were allocated, etc. And of course support those actions being pressed ad infinitum even without any evidence of a problem or any substantial illegal things occurring.

Vice president Harris supporting every action to change any result that in not desirable for Dems.

It will be nice to see the support from GalaxyFlyer and others for such actions.

In my opinion.

Tugg


I don’t support the actions now, show me where I did? No reason to support Dems in the future. The first real challenge since 1877 was a Democrat one in 2005, wrong then, wrong now. Pence or Congress can only count the electors, not reject the outcome. This is pretty black letter law, except to buffoons like Trump.
 
ltbewr
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Re: US elections, voter fraud allegations

Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:11 am

Some will bring up that the Democrats challenged Presidential elections in 2000, 2004 & 2016, losing all of them by the way.

In 2000 there was clear issues as to the total vote in Florida, although many disputed and objected to the final and controversial decision of the US Supreme Court, Democrats accepted the result and moved on.

In 2004, there were issues with the vote in Ohio, challenges were made, recounts were done and there were a few 'unfaithful' EC voters but the Democrats accepted the result and moved on.

In 2016, there were very close vote numbers in favor of Trump in 3 key states, Democrats complained, a 3rd/Green Party candidate challenged in Michigan, there were a few 'unfaithful' EC voters, but the Democrats did accept the results and chose to fight Trump in the House and Senate as best as possible, eventually for sound reasons Impeaching and with a trial that due to party control in the Senate, failing to remove Trump.

Now in 2020, Trump as still President for now, is pushing his core supporters and Republicans seeking to keep control of the WH, not lose to a RWNJ in their next primary, refusing to accept the overwhelming evidence of no level of alleged criminal vote stealing by Democrats enough to change the results in several states. Trump and the Republicans have taken to extreme far beyond those of Democrats in the past. Indeed Republicans are, as others noted, committing voter fraud limiting the access to vote by likely Democrat voters. Yes, there are some issues with the use of vote by mail and should be revolved in the next 2-3 years, but the public health emergency from Cofid-19 justified some emergency acts to do mail voting and early physical voting and we must recognize that. Besides, with most voters using a paper ballot as by mail, likely we had a more accurate, auditable, verifieable and secure election than in the past.
 
Derico
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Re: US elections, voter fraud allegations

Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:36 am

If the opposition to Biden's party has the legal tools to mount all these challenges, as unpalatable as they may be to many pro-Biden supporters, one must admit they are within their right. If there was some sort of "evidence threshold" to mount judicial objections, they would be in the statutes but apparently you can raise a lawsuit and it is up to the judge to determine if it has merit.

The real question is what happens when all legal avenues are exhausted. Will all the congress members who objected to the voting, once their objections dismissed, publicly come out and say "Biden is the president of the country now", or will they stay silent?

If the former, then there is a small window for normalcy. If the latter, then that would be an unequivocal signal of open sedition.
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casinterest
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Re: US elections, voter fraud allegations

Mon Jan 04, 2021 2:20 am

Derico wrote:
If the opposition to Biden's party has the legal tools to mount all these challenges, as unpalatable as they may be to many pro-Biden supporters, one must admit they are within their right. If there was some sort of "evidence threshold" to mount judicial objections, they would be in the statutes but apparently you can raise a lawsuit and it is up to the judge to determine if it has merit.

The real question is what happens when all legal avenues are exhausted. Will all the congress members who objected to the voting, once their objections dismissed, publicly come out and say "Biden is the president of the country now", or will they stay silent?

If the former, then there is a small window for normalcy. If the latter, then that would be an unequivocal signal of open sedition.


It is already open sedition.
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Aaron747
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Re: US elections, voter fraud allegations

Mon Jan 04, 2021 2:23 am

RJMAZ wrote:
A contractor working for UPS has paper work where votes were moving between states.


:rotfl: :rotfl: That's a new one! As if UPS or any of their partners would take on business like that with such massive liability potential.
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casinterest
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Re: US elections, voter fraud allegations

Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:20 am

https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/03/politics ... index.html

The letter -- signed by Dick Cheney, James Mattis, Mark Esper, Leon Panetta, Donald Rumsfeld, William Cohen, Chuck Hagel, Robert Gates, William Perry and Ashton Carter -- amounts to a remarkable show of force against Trump's subversion efforts just days before Congress is set to count Electoral College votes.
"Our elections have occurred. Recounts and audits have been conducted. Appropriate challenges have been addressed by the courts. Governors have certified the results. And the electoral college has voted. The time for questioning the results has passed; the time for the formal counting of the electoral college votes, as prescribed in the Constitution and statute, has arrived," the group wrote.


The GOP will just call all these folks liars and agitators right?
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
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Francoflier
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Re: US elections, voter fraud allegations

Mon Jan 04, 2021 4:13 am

This is simply a bunch of brainless thugs doing the bidding of their boss. They are in debt to 'the Family' and all of this masquerade is the price they have to pay to satisfy the Don.

I know mafia movies have fallen out of fashion these days but if you've seen any of them what's happening here will be very familiar.

They know very well that this will fail and make them look like the despicable morons they are. It doesn't matter. What matters is that the Don is not displeased...

How these spineless lackeys even bear to look at themselves in the mirror is an absolute mystery to me.
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seb146
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Re: US elections, voter fraud allegations

Mon Jan 04, 2021 5:02 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
seb146 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
It will, and should, be rejected, but much electorate in both parties have doubts. It was Democrats who started denying elections in 2000, then again in 2004 calling OH was somehow fraudulent, then denying Trump’s election within hours calling for resistance as if Hitler violently invaded the country. The WaPo called for impeachment on or about Jan 20th, 2017. The OTT nonsense from all politicians has to stop.


All this except Democrats accepted the will of the people. So, clearly, both sides do not do it. And, yes, king MAGA was impeached. He was not convicted. He should be impeached again for treason for attempting this coup.

But, back to your point: Democrats stand with democracy, even when it is against them. Democrats stand with the Constitution even when it is against them.


Boxer and 31 Democrat reps didn’t in January, 2005. As I’ve said, Biden won, Trump lost. Was there vote fraud, possibly. If there was did both sides play, probably. Considering in several court cases, no Republican plaintiff offered the least evidence, I’m pretty positive, there’s not a scintilla of reason to think the election was materially affected by fraud.

https://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/07/poli ... lenge.html


Literally zero Democrats told us to take up arms. Literally zero Democrats told us to be violent at outcomes. Zero Democrats went along with a coup. None. Not a single one. We said there were states trying very hard to make it difficult for Democrats (minorities) to vote. And that only got more difficult for minorities. This is not "both sides do it". We never ever at any point ever had Kerry or Obama or Hillary or Gore ever calling any secretary of state of any state demanding votes be thrown out. Ever.

This attempted coup is all on Republicans. Do not ever start with that "both sides do it" ever. Republicans hate the Constitution and hate they failed in their coup.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
art
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Re: US elections, voter fraud allegations

Mon Jan 04, 2021 5:59 am

seb146 wrote:
Republicans hate the Constitution...;


I'm genuinely curious. In what way(s) do Republicans hate the Constitution? What changes would they like to see?
 
RJMAZ
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Re: US elections, voter fraud allegations

Mon Jan 04, 2021 6:33 am

Aaron747 wrote:
RJMAZ wrote:
A contractor working for UPS has paper work where votes were moving between states.


:rotfl: :rotfl: That's a new one! As if UPS or any of their partners would take on business like that with such massive liability potential.

I'm Australian and I do not care about who is elected. But the evidence is very clear. It does not take Sherlock Holmes to put this puzzle together.

I would link the interview with the UPS driver and all the actual documentation and time slips but it seems the post will just get reported by Biden supporters and deleted by the admins.

The process is very simple. If you knew your neighbour wasn't going to vote you could just fill in their mail vote form and send it off. Expand this onto a large scale and if 95% of a certain demographic wouldn't vote then the same process can be done.

Obviously a million fake votes couldn't be dropped to win all states as that would be highly obviously. It could only be done to win tight swing states.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: US elections, voter fraud allegations

Mon Jan 04, 2021 6:39 am

RJMAZ wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
RJMAZ wrote:
A contractor working for UPS has paper work where votes were moving between states.


:rotfl: :rotfl: That's a new one! As if UPS or any of their partners would take on business like that with such massive liability potential.

I'm Australian and I do not care about who is elected. But the evidence is very clear. It does not take Sherlock Holmes to put this puzzle together.

I would link the interview with the UPS driver and all the actual documentation and time slips but it seems the post will just get reported by Biden supporters and deleted by the admins.

The process is very simple. If you knew your neighbour wasn't going to vote you could just fill in their mail vote form and send it off. Expand this onto a large scale and if 95% of a certain demographic wouldn't vote then the same process can be done.

Obviously a million fake votes couldn't be dropped to win all states as that would be highly obviously. It could only be done to win tight swing states.


If the evidence is so clear, why have committees and courts that have looked into it determined there's no there there? Next you're going to say EVERY judge regardless of partisan appointment / political lean is now bought and paid for? :rotfl: In America, these disputes get handled in court. And it has been adjudicated. Nexxxxxt.
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RJMAZ
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Re: US elections, voter fraud allegations

Mon Jan 04, 2021 6:48 am

Aaron747 wrote:
If the evidence is so clear, why have committees and courts that have looked into it determined there's no there there? Next you're going to say EVERY judge regardless of partisan appointment / political lean is now bought and paid for? :rotfl: In America, these disputes get handled in court. And it has been adjudicated. Nexxxxxt.

Any decision this big has to be made at the highest level. Any low court or committee has to pass it up the chain if there is any doubt or more evidence has to be gathered. The lower courts do not have the power to spend billions to gather the required evidence. This takes weeks or even months to reach the top level.

It would not surprise me if this is still making headlines in March.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: US elections, voter fraud allegations

Mon Jan 04, 2021 7:04 am

RJMAZ wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
If the evidence is so clear, why have committees and courts that have looked into it determined there's no there there? Next you're going to say EVERY judge regardless of partisan appointment / political lean is now bought and paid for? :rotfl: In America, these disputes get handled in court. And it has been adjudicated. Nexxxxxt.

Any decision this big has to be made at the highest level. Any low court or committee has to pass it up the chain if there is any doubt or more evidence has to be gathered. The lower courts do not have the power to spend billions to gather the required evidence. This takes weeks or even months to reach the top level.


They determined there's no more evidence to be gathered because what was presented didn't pass the smell test. Affidavits submitted by one-off workers who were also hired actors, videotapes heavily edited, etc do not stand up in court. The campaign kept touting how many affidavits they had, but that proves nothing. Affidavits are simply stories unless accompanied by hard evidence. When the companies making voting software have objected to characterization of events in the media, the media has immediately backed down knowing they are going to piss money away on discovery in cases they will lose. Courts look into things seriously - they are not interested in facilitating shit-stirring on a massive scale.
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moo
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Re: US elections, voter fraud allegations

Mon Jan 04, 2021 7:18 am

RJMAZ wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
If the evidence is so clear, why have committees and courts that have looked into it determined there's no there there? Next you're going to say EVERY judge regardless of partisan appointment / political lean is now bought and paid for? :rotfl: In America, these disputes get handled in court. And it has been adjudicated. Nexxxxxt.

Any decision this big has to be made at the highest level. Any low court or committee has to pass it up the chain if there is any doubt or more evidence has to be gathered. The lower courts do not have the power to spend billions to gather the required evidence. This takes weeks or even months to reach the top level.

It would not surprise me if this is still making headlines in March.


The entire point of the tiered court system is to keep pathetic, contentless trolling lawsuits out of the higher courts, allowing them to be tested and dismissed at the lowest point possible, meaning the higher courts are protected.

Its not the job of the court to investigate, so if theres investigation or “evidence gathering” to be done, and you are expecting a court to do it, then you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the role of the court and your case is destined to fail.
 
RJMAZ
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Re: US elections, voter fraud allegations

Mon Jan 04, 2021 7:33 am

moo wrote:
Its not the job of the court to investigate, so if theres investigation or “evidence gathering” to be done, and you are expecting a court to do it, then you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the role of the court and your case is destined to fail.

The court will have to authorize the evidence gathering. Only the highest level court could authorize such a costly investigation. The evidence gathering will have to be paid for by the US government.

I think we are a few weeks away from when the hard decisions will have to be made.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: US elections, voter fraud allegations

Mon Jan 04, 2021 7:39 am

RJMAZ wrote:
moo wrote:
Its not the job of the court to investigate, so if theres investigation or “evidence gathering” to be done, and you are expecting a court to do it, then you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the role of the court and your case is destined to fail.

The court will have to authorize the evidence gathering. Only the highest level court could authorize such a costly investigation. The evidence gathering will have to be paid for by the US government.

I think we are a few weeks away from when the hard decisions will have to be made.


Again, completely wrong. The Trump campaign as a plaintiff must foot the bill for its expenses in court, and the state courts / corporate entities they are suing would have their associated costs. The US government should have no actual role in these proceedings. Where they have tried to enter suit in federal courts so far, they have failed in every instance.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
RJMAZ
Posts: 2367
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Re: US elections, voter fraud allegations

Mon Jan 04, 2021 8:06 am

Aaron747 wrote:
Again, completely wrong. The Trump campaign as a plaintiff must foot the bill for its expenses in court, and the state courts / corporate entities they are suing would have their associated costs. The US government should have no actual role in these proceedings. Where they have tried to enter suit in federal courts so far, they have failed in every instance.

That is absolutely ridiculous. If the Judge at the highest level decides that there is clear evidence of fraud the Trump campaign will not have to pay a cent.

Thousands of people would be required to audit the votes and hundreds of experts are required to check the ink and signatures. The cost will be in the hundreds of millions of dollars.
 
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scbriml
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Re: US elections, voter fraud allegations

Mon Jan 04, 2021 8:07 am

RJMAZ wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
If the evidence is so clear, why have committees and courts that have looked into it determined there's no there there? Next you're going to say EVERY judge regardless of partisan appointment / political lean is now bought and paid for? :rotfl: In America, these disputes get handled in court. And it has been adjudicated. Nexxxxxt.

Any decision this big has to be made at the highest level. Any low court or committee has to pass it up the chain if there is any doubt or more evidence has to be gathered. The lower courts do not have the power to spend billions to gather the required evidence. This takes weeks or even months to reach the top level.

It would not surprise me if this is still making headlines in March.


You should be posting this nonsense on The Gateway Pundit, you’d fit right in.
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moo
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Re: US elections, voter fraud allegations

Mon Jan 04, 2021 8:26 am

RJMAZ wrote:
moo wrote:
Its not the job of the court to investigate, so if theres investigation or “evidence gathering” to be done, and you are expecting a court to do it, then you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the role of the court and your case is destined to fail.

The court will have to authorize the evidence gathering. Only the highest level court could authorize such a costly investigation. The evidence gathering will have to be paid for by the US government.

I think we are a few weeks away from when the hard decisions will have to be made.


The hard decisions have already been made, its just that some people wont accept that thats the case.

And I agree that a court can issue discovery orders etc, but it doesnt take “the highest court” to do that, nor should it - you start in the lowest court, and that court decides if it has the authority to issue necessary subpoenas and orders. The lowest court will also decide if you have standing - and that is where most of Trumps and Republican lawsuits have failed - lack of standing. If it failed in a lower court, it will fail on the same basis in a higher court and you just wasted that courts time.

In this case, theres nothing to discover, and nothing to uncover - right now, the US political system, Republican party and quite a few of its citizenry is simply embarrassing itself on the international stage. Trump did not win, there is no evidence of widespread Democratic Party led or backed fraud, and what is seeping out of the dark corners of the internet in support of Trumps claims is laughably pathetic and easily dismissible - does that mean we have to humour Trump and the GOP with all manner of investigations and court cases? No, for the same reason you dont have to give a 5 year old child any leeway because they wont out their pants on when told to - they either do or they dont go to the park, its that simple.
 
art
Posts: 4144
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Re: US elections, voter fraud allegations

Mon Jan 04, 2021 8:48 am

moo wrote:
In this case, theres nothing to discover, and nothing to uncover - right now, the US political system, Republican party and quite a few of its citizenry is simply embarrassing itself on the international stage.


That is the way it looks from my side of the pond.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: US elections, voter fraud allegations

Mon Jan 04, 2021 9:10 am

RJMAZ wrote:
Thousands of people would be required to audit the votes and hundreds of experts are required to check the ink and signatures. The cost will be in the hundreds of millions of dollars.


That would be true if lower courts found any standing or merit to take these cases on. They haven't, and that door is effectively shut, so your point is completely moot. As others have said, this is all just theater now at best, and at worst, a massive effort by grifters and malcontents to undermine both federalism and the franchise.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
Kent350787
Posts: 1904
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 12:06 am

Re: US elections, voter fraud allegations

Mon Jan 04, 2021 9:30 am

RJMAZ wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Again, completely wrong. The Trump campaign as a plaintiff must foot the bill for its expenses in court, and the state courts / corporate entities they are suing would have their associated costs. The US government should have no actual role in these proceedings. Where they have tried to enter suit in federal courts so far, they have failed in every instance.

That is absolutely ridiculous. If the Judge at the highest level decides that there is clear evidence of fraud the Trump campaign will not have to pay a cent.

Thousands of people would be required to audit the votes and hundreds of experts are required to check the ink and signatures. The cost will be in the hundreds of millions of dollars.

For the good of the USA, I’m glad you’re an Australian and this ridiculous conspiracy theory can be treated as just that.

As an Australian, it worries me that fellow countrymen can believe this tripe!
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RJMAZ
Posts: 2367
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Re: US elections, voter fraud allegations

Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:41 pm

Kent350787 wrote:
For the good of the USA, I’m glad you’re an Australian and this ridiculous conspiracy theory can be treated as just that.

As an Australian, it worries me that fellow countrymen can believe this tripe!

I guess it is statistically possible for a million legitimate postal votes to arrive late at night and they are 95+% Biden.

They might want to avoid that happening in the future as it looks highly suspicious.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 14563
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: US elections, voter fraud allegations

Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:04 pm

RJMAZ wrote:
Kent350787 wrote:
For the good of the USA, I’m glad you’re an Australian and this ridiculous conspiracy theory can be treated as just that.

As an Australian, it worries me that fellow countrymen can believe this tripe!

I guess it is statistically possible for a million legitimate postal votes to arrive late at night and they are 95+% Biden..


They don´t "arrive" late at night, its just that a large county is done counting late at night, and reports in bulk. Large countries need longer, democratic strongholds need even longer than that, since absentee ballots take longer to count, and Biden voters used that method a lot more than Trump voters. The Washington Post had a nice little simulator to play with vote counting speeds, when countries would report and how that would impact the vote totals, but i can´t find it at the moment...

best regards
Thomas

edit: here it is https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... al-claims/
Example with default values for Wisconsin, with Milwaukee and Dane counties creating the blue spikes.

Image
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scbriml
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Re: US elections, voter fraud allegations

Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:18 pm

RJMAZ wrote:
Kent350787 wrote:
For the good of the USA, I’m glad you’re an Australian and this ridiculous conspiracy theory can be treated as just that.

As an Australian, it worries me that fellow countrymen can believe this tripe!

I guess it is statistically possible for a million legitimate postal votes to arrive late at night and they are 95+% Biden.

They might want to avoid that happening in the future as it looks highly suspicious.


I believe some states don't even start counting postal votes until after all the in-person votes have been counted. Some states also count postal votes that arrive after polling day as long as they are dated before polling day. There's nothing unusual about all of this, despite what the desperate Trump supporters want to believe.
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Tugger
Posts: 11231
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Re: US elections, voter fraud allegations

Mon Jan 04, 2021 2:48 pm

RJMAZ wrote:
The process is very simple. If you knew your neighbour wasn't going to vote you could just fill in their mail vote form and send it off. Expand this onto a large scale and if 95% of a certain demographic wouldn't vote then the same process can be done.

Here is two of your early dumb statements: "Is very simple" and "Expand this on a large scale".... How do those go together? How do you find out all those that won't vote? How do you confidently duplicate those people signatures? How do you find thousands and per your implication, millions of people like this along with thousands of others willing to do this illegal act? And how do you keep these people all silent?

Of course what I ask is not important to a conspiracy nutcase. Their job is to simply throw out ideas, make outlandish statements and propose similarly outlandish ideas.

Tugg
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luckyone
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Re: US elections, voter fraud allegations

Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:29 pm

Guys, don’t feed the trolls.
 
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SAS A340
Posts: 916
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 5:59 am

Re: US elections, voter fraud allegations

Mon Jan 04, 2021 4:13 pm

Trump people has become the biggest cult in us history..... US is lost!
It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
 
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Aesma
Posts: 14399
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Re: US elections, voter fraud allegations

Mon Jan 04, 2021 5:35 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
It will, and should, be rejected, but much electorate in both parties have doubts. It was Democrats who started denying elections in 2000, then again in 2004 calling OH was somehow fraudulent, then denying Trump’s election within hours calling for resistance as if Hitler violently invaded the country. The WaPo called for impeachment on or about Jan 20th, 2017. The OTT nonsense from all politicians has to stop.


But of course gerrymandering, throwing ballots selectively, voter suppression, broken voting machines, refusing to table votes in the Senate, all that is fine.

Who was denying Trump's 2016 election a week after the vote ? A month ? Two months ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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moo
Posts: 5109
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Re: US elections, voter fraud allegations

Mon Jan 04, 2021 7:42 pm

RJMAZ wrote:
Kent350787 wrote:
For the good of the USA, I’m glad you’re an Australian and this ridiculous conspiracy theory can be treated as just that.

As an Australian, it worries me that fellow countrymen can believe this tripe!

I guess it is statistically possible for a million legitimate postal votes to arrive late at night and they are 95+% Biden.

They might want to avoid that happening in the future as it looks highly suspicious.


Given that the teams doing the counting do NOT give a real time tally of the votes they have counted but instead report in batches, its goddamn certain that there will be a large number of votes reported for a given candidate at a given time....
 
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seb146
Posts: 23727
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Re: US elections, voter fraud allegations

Mon Jan 04, 2021 7:46 pm

art wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Republicans hate the Constitution...;


I'm genuinely curious. In what way(s) do Republicans hate the Constitution? What changes would they like to see?


They want this whole pesky voting thing stopped, for one. But only if they come out the winner. Look at what has been happening since November. They fight hard against equality claiming that we all have the same opportunity, even though we do not all have the same opportunity. They hate any opposing voices. They keep going on and on about "lies of the main stream media" and how "main stream media" is corrupt and not to be trusted all while citing their own lying and biased sources as fact. There were even calls to silence "main stream media" sources by Republicans.

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/p ... h-1005629/
https://bjornjohann.medium.com/seriousl ... 2ac9b36f17
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seb146
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Re: US elections, voter fraud allegations

Mon Jan 04, 2021 7:57 pm

Heritage Foundation found just over 1300 instances of voter fraud ranging from falsifying registrations to actually voting more than once. 1300 out of how many ballots cast?

https://www.heritage.org/voterfraud/sea ... d_type=All

Heritage Foundation is a powerful conservative group, so this is not a "liberal" conspiracy trying to get Biden elected.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
RJMAZ
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Re: US elections, voter fraud allegations

Mon Jan 04, 2021 8:49 pm

Tugger wrote:
How do you find out all those that won't vote? How do you confidently duplicate those people signatures? How do you find thousands and per your implication, millions of people like this along with thousands of others willing to do this illegal act? And how do you keep these people all silent?

This information on voters can be easily bought. We can thank the data collection of the big tech companies for that. It is ok if a percentage of these people end up voting on the day as a few thousand double votes will not raise concern.

The signatures do not matter as the chances of an audit and the signatures being manually checked is very very unlikely. I could make an App that generates a custom signature based on the first and last name.

All of the people counting would be unaware that they are counting fake votes. To keep the actual perpetrators quiet simply involves hiring the right people.

At the very least the US should check the mail vote when someone also voted in person. This is the first place to start looking. Statistically these double votes should be the same percentage across all states but they are not. The dumps have to be a small percentage of votes to keep the risk down. So they can only be used when the results are very close. It is then in these close states where we have disproportionate numbers of double votes.
 
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moo
Posts: 5109
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Re: US elections, voter fraud allegations

Mon Jan 04, 2021 8:59 pm

RJMAZ wrote:

The signatures do not matter as the chances of an audit and the signatures being manually checked is very very unlikely. I could make an App that generates a custom signature based on the first and last name.



I distinctly remember a lot of votes being thrown out for signature mis-match in a lot of states, with a lot of noise being made about "curing" those votes by the original voter so they counted - so yes, the signature is important and no, another audit is not necessary to identify fraud in this circumstance.
 
Kent350787
Posts: 1904
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 12:06 am

Re: US elections, voter fraud allegations

Mon Jan 04, 2021 9:03 pm

moo wrote:
RJMAZ wrote:
Kent350787 wrote:
For the good of the USA, I’m glad you’re an Australian and this ridiculous conspiracy theory can be treated as just that.

As an Australian, it worries me that fellow countrymen can believe this tripe!

I guess it is statistically possible for a million legitimate postal votes to arrive late at night and they are 95+% Biden.

They might want to avoid that happening in the future as it looks highly suspicious.


Given that the teams doing the counting do NOT give a real time tally of the votes they have counted but instead report in batches, its goddamn certain that there will be a large number of votes reported for a given candidate at a given time....


Thanks for taking the time to explain this. Given that it has been explained in detail during the couple of days after the election I couldn’t believe that this may have been one of the supposed instances of fraud the poster may have been referring to.
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casinterest
Posts: 13515
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Re: US elections, voter fraud allegations

Mon Jan 04, 2021 9:16 pm

Kent350787 wrote:
moo wrote:
RJMAZ wrote:
I guess it is statistically possible for a million legitimate postal votes to arrive late at night and they are 95+% Biden.

They might want to avoid that happening in the future as it looks highly suspicious.


Given that the teams doing the counting do NOT give a real time tally of the votes they have counted but instead report in batches, its goddamn certain that there will be a large number of votes reported for a given candidate at a given time....


Thanks for taking the time to explain this. Given that it has been explained in detail during the couple of days after the election I couldn’t believe that this may have been one of the supposed instances of fraud the poster may have been referring to.



The people that still think there was widespread voter fraud will not pay attention to details that explain away their baseless rants. They need right wing liars to validate their misgivings. Everything else is a blank for them.


Folks that still believe Trump won are the reason so many jobs are going overseas and to automation.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain

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