Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
Arion640
Posts: 3262
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Thu Feb 18, 2021 5:54 pm

ChrisKen wrote:
Boeing74741R wrote:
As for the upcoming Scottish Parliament elections, considering the SNP's poor record in places and given what looks like to me a cover-up going on over Nicola Sturgeon and her husband Peter Murrell's involvement in the Alex Salmond scandal, it really surprises me they are polling as high as they are.

It's why indyref2 is currently a hot topic again (every time she's called on something, #indyref2 swiftly follows). There's nothing like playing the nationalist card to deflect attention from failures.
eg UK for 40yrs with the EU, Trump with anything, Argentina with the Falklands, the list goes on and on and on. "it's their fault", "ooh but the Malvinas", "ChiiiiiiiiNA!!


I also can’t get over how they are polling so well considering what’s going on although i’m trying to view things as a Scot would.

It’s not getting much media coverage today but Alex Salmonds submission is likely going to get published and it will likely prove Nicola Sturgeon broke ministerial code. But we’ll see.

The SNP are trying desperately hard for it not to be published it’s so clear they’re trying to hide something.

The spectator are on the case but a total media blackout in the rest of the UK: https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/ful ... on-inquiry
 
Boeing74741R
Posts: 1535
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:44 am

Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Sat Feb 20, 2021 9:19 pm

It has since been decided Alex Salmond’s submission will be published and he’s agreed to appear before the committee next week on the back of this. He had been refusing to appear unless it was published. This could be a very uncomfortable hearing for Sturgeon, especially if it is revealed she breached the ministerial code as it then becomes a resignation matter.
 
User avatar
zkojq
Posts: 4744
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:42 am

Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:21 am

IMO another independence vote is worth it if for no other reason than it will make Westminster get out its chequebook and start making promises.

flyguy89 wrote:
zkojq wrote:
Meanwhile a member of the UK cannot even have a referendum about leaving - let alone actually doing so - without Westminster's blessing.

Except they did...


Only with Westminster's blessing.

flyguy89 wrote:
I’ll be curious to see though, if the UK’s vaccination strategy is indeed successful and the EU vaccination effort continues to drag, if that will at all impact independence sentiment in Scotland.


Why would you think that COVID would make Scots more likely to support being part of the Union? Boris and the Westminster government have done an absolutely awful job at managing it:

- Initial suggestion to "take it on the chin" rather than go into lockdown.
- Going into lockdown late
- The test and trace system which was non-functional for most of 2020 despite Boris repeatedly insisting it was "world beating"
- The Test & Trace App.
- Furlough scheme extension announced late at night the day before it was due to expire, meaning that many people were needlessly made redundant.
- Forgotten Limited.
- Lots and lots of no-bid government contracts for Tory donors and friends of government ministers

It's a cacophony of incompetence, whichever way you look at it.
https://twitter.com/PeterStefanovi2/sta ... 2001229827

Meanwhile in Scotland, Nicola has been giving clear and concise leadership each day and case numbers per capita are roughly half of what they are in England.

Image




ElPistolero wrote:
The strategy has to be “to tell the truth and win the argument … paint a truthful picture of how we can earn the right to a better society by hard work over time”. Independence, he acknowledges, “isn’t going to be delivered overnight”.

“The tone has to be right, we need to be seen by the rest of the world and the UK as the opposite of those prosecuting the case for Brexit”

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/188 ... ew-wilson/


A very mature take on the situation. One thing I like about the SNP is that they are fairly good at avoiding populism, meaningless platitudes and stupid rhetoric. Noone in the SNP is pulling numbers out of their backsides and saying that independence will make Scotland 350,000,000 GBP a week better off.

A101 wrote:
UK constitution does not have an equivalent, process and it is enshrined in UK law that matter about the union (UK) are reserved matters for Westminster.


AKA it's less democratic.

Arion640 wrote:
SNP (ruling party in Scotland) Is starting to head into civil war. Will this whack them back a bit?

I guess time will tell. The party has been very very united until now and this potential corruption and covering up of evidence by Sturgeon is upsetting a lot of Scots.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.dail ... 447679.amp

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... eon-ahead/


Yawn. According to the Torygraph, Nicola Sturgeon was apparently both using sexual assault allegations against Alex Salmond to frame him but also trying to cover up sexual assault allegations to save face. It doesn't take a lot of critical thinking to realize that the media are on a witch hunt. I'll wait for the inquiry to be complete before passing final judgement but its pretty clear that the Unionist media will spin this against Nicola either way. Such is life.

Also, I've lost a lot of respect for JC recently. She seems to be getting into a ridiculous number of pointless fights that serve no purpose whatsoever other than to make her appear to be an out of touch, litigious elite.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/ ... ve-3141696

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/191 ... s-lawyers/


Arion640 wrote:
I do enjoy this talk of a United Ireland. Now if that’s the wish of Northern Ireland that’s fine, but there are many many people in the Republic who don’t want it and are worried about the huge cost of taking it on could sink the republic.


I don't get the issue of cost here. It's not like NI is significantly less developed than its neighbor like North Korea or East Germany. Tax receipts that currently go to the Exchequer would instead go to Dublin.

I get that Unionist areas of NI have historically gotten much more money for infrastructure etc (the DUP managed to extract a lot out of Theresa May and spent nearly all of it in their - Unionist - electorates) but I'm still not seeing this as a big deal as far as a hypothetical reunification goes.

Arion640 wrote:
Northern Ireland could sink the ROI economy - cost is very much a factor.


Please, go ahead and enlighten us as to how.

A101 wrote:
Parliament authorised a referenda in which it was known that the government would implement the result


It's either a binding referendum....or it's not a binding referendum.

Aesma wrote:
Labour will probably need SNP support to get in power, so that's how the referendum could happen if it hasn't happened before. Then if Labour is smart it will vote for PR. That way the far right and far left are less likely to take power.


An implementation of PR and a referendum on independence would be a good outcome. For the past two decades Westminster has been having progressively nuttier and nuttier Prime Ministers, so this could hopefully turn things back in the right direction.

Aesma wrote:
Aside from that, as long as there are plenty of poor people in the remaining England, I cannot see the current crop of Tories holding on to power. Now if the North of England could leave with Scotland...


Disagree. The populist media in Britain is very good at getting poor people to blame their problems on immigrants, single mothers and the EU. Nothing here is about to change. If anything, GB News will make the problem worse.

frmrCapCadet wrote:
A strong EU and a strong UK has long been foundational for US strategy. Either being the lesser is harmful for the world as many of us see it. I see the EU doing well, the UK has taken some serious body blow, self inflicted.


Would Scottish independence really change all that much going forwards? It's not like Scotland wouldn't be a US ally going forwards. And I don't think that making the Royal Navy move their operations at Faslane to somewhere South of the border really makes that much difference in the long term.

Arion640 wrote:
I would like to see a period of stability after the pandemic is over without anymore referendums. I think the UK needs that.

Then a proper discussion can be had on the issue.


You mean that you don't think that the incompetent government should risk being judged on its track record? Why is now the time to draw a line in the sand and not say 2015?


Arion640 wrote:
it will likely prove Nicola Sturgeon broke ministerial code. But we’ll see.


Ah, so breaking ministerial code is suddenly not ok? I look forward to the media holding Sturgeon to account and putting her feet to the fire exactly as they did to Priti Patel, Matt Hancock and Bojo. :lol:

Image

Image

Image

It should of course be pointed out that Sturgeon referred herself to the ministerial ethics board.

Boeing74741R wrote:
This could be a very uncomfortable hearing for Sturgeon, especially if it is revealed she breached the ministerial code as it then becomes a resignation matter.


:rotfl:
 
flyguy89
Posts: 3451
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:44 am

zkojq wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
I’ll be curious to see though, if the UK’s vaccination strategy is indeed successful and the EU vaccination effort continues to drag, if that will at all impact independence sentiment in Scotland.


Why would you think that COVID would make Scots more likely to support being part of the Union? Boris and the Westminster government have done an absolutely awful job at managing it:

If the UK vaccination strategy indeed proves successful and life in the UK drifts back to normalcy while the EU remains saddled with restrictions and mired in ramping up vaccinations, I could see that as dampening independence sentiment and reinvigorating some confidence in the union. It’s not like that many minds would have to be changed seeing as most polling is showing only a small plurality in favor of independence. Of course if either of those things don’t come to pass it’s a moot point.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 5151
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:15 pm

As has often been noted, the UK punched well above its weight. And that served the US very well with the EU and other parts of the world. Between Brexit and Trump we (the US) are no longer at the top of the list as a reliable ally. Adjustments are and will be made for this new reality. But little of what created that reality advanced US interests.
 
Arion640
Posts: 3262
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:56 am

The day of reckoning is nearly here

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland- ... s-56163460
 
Arion640
Posts: 3262
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:02 am

zkojq wrote:
IMO another independence vote is worth it if for no other reason than it will make Westminster get out its chequebook and start making promises.

flyguy89 wrote:
zkojq wrote:
Meanwhile a member of the UK cannot even have a referendum about leaving - let alone actually doing so - without Westminster's blessing.

Except they did...


Only with Westminster's blessing.

flyguy89 wrote:
I’ll be curious to see though, if the UK’s vaccination strategy is indeed successful and the EU vaccination effort continues to drag, if that will at all impact independence sentiment in Scotland.


Why would you think that COVID would make Scots more likely to support being part of the Union? Boris and the Westminster government have done an absolutely awful job at managing it:

- Initial suggestion to "take it on the chin" rather than go into lockdown.
- Going into lockdown late
- The test and trace system which was non-functional for most of 2020 despite Boris repeatedly insisting it was "world beating"
- The Test & Trace App.
- Furlough scheme extension announced late at night the day before it was due to expire, meaning that many people were needlessly made redundant.
- Forgotten Limited.
- Lots and lots of no-bid government contracts for Tory donors and friends of government ministers

It's a cacophony of incompetence, whichever way you look at it.
https://twitter.com/PeterStefanovi2/sta ... 2001229827

Meanwhile in Scotland, Nicola has been giving clear and concise leadership each day and case numbers per capita are roughly half of what they are in England.

Image




ElPistolero wrote:
The strategy has to be “to tell the truth and win the argument … paint a truthful picture of how we can earn the right to a better society by hard work over time”. Independence, he acknowledges, “isn’t going to be delivered overnight”.

“The tone has to be right, we need to be seen by the rest of the world and the UK as the opposite of those prosecuting the case for Brexit”

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/188 ... ew-wilson/


A very mature take on the situation. One thing I like about the SNP is that they are fairly good at avoiding populism, meaningless platitudes and stupid rhetoric. Noone in the SNP is pulling numbers out of their backsides and saying that independence will make Scotland 350,000,000 GBP a week better off.

A101 wrote:
UK constitution does not have an equivalent, process and it is enshrined in UK law that matter about the union (UK) are reserved matters for Westminster.


AKA it's less democratic.

Arion640 wrote:
SNP (ruling party in Scotland) Is starting to head into civil war. Will this whack them back a bit?

I guess time will tell. The party has been very very united until now and this potential corruption and covering up of evidence by Sturgeon is upsetting a lot of Scots.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.dail ... 447679.amp

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... eon-ahead/


Yawn. According to the Torygraph, Nicola Sturgeon was apparently both using sexual assault allegations against Alex Salmond to frame him but also trying to cover up sexual assault allegations to save face. It doesn't take a lot of critical thinking to realize that the media are on a witch hunt. I'll wait for the inquiry to be complete before passing final judgement but its pretty clear that the Unionist media will spin this against Nicola either way. Such is life.

Also, I've lost a lot of respect for JC recently. She seems to be getting into a ridiculous number of pointless fights that serve no purpose whatsoever other than to make her appear to be an out of touch, litigious elite.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/ ... ve-3141696

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/191 ... s-lawyers/


Arion640 wrote:
I do enjoy this talk of a United Ireland. Now if that’s the wish of Northern Ireland that’s fine, but there are many many people in the Republic who don’t want it and are worried about the huge cost of taking it on could sink the republic.


I don't get the issue of cost here. It's not like NI is significantly less developed than its neighbor like North Korea or East Germany. Tax receipts that currently go to the Exchequer would instead go to Dublin.

I get that Unionist areas of NI have historically gotten much more money for infrastructure etc (the DUP managed to extract a lot out of Theresa May and spent nearly all of it in their - Unionist - electorates) but I'm still not seeing this as a big deal as far as a hypothetical reunification goes.

Arion640 wrote:
Northern Ireland could sink the ROI economy - cost is very much a factor.


Please, go ahead and enlighten us as to how.

A101 wrote:
Parliament authorised a referenda in which it was known that the government would implement the result


It's either a binding referendum....or it's not a binding referendum.

Aesma wrote:
Labour will probably need SNP support to get in power, so that's how the referendum could happen if it hasn't happened before. Then if Labour is smart it will vote for PR. That way the far right and far left are less likely to take power.


An implementation of PR and a referendum on independence would be a good outcome. For the past two decades Westminster has been having progressively nuttier and nuttier Prime Ministers, so this could hopefully turn things back in the right direction.

Aesma wrote:
Aside from that, as long as there are plenty of poor people in the remaining England, I cannot see the current crop of Tories holding on to power. Now if the North of England could leave with Scotland...


Disagree. The populist media in Britain is very good at getting poor people to blame their problems on immigrants, single mothers and the EU. Nothing here is about to change. If anything, GB News will make the problem worse.

frmrCapCadet wrote:
A strong EU and a strong UK has long been foundational for US strategy. Either being the lesser is harmful for the world as many of us see it. I see the EU doing well, the UK has taken some serious body blow, self inflicted.


Would Scottish independence really change all that much going forwards? It's not like Scotland wouldn't be a US ally going forwards. And I don't think that making the Royal Navy move their operations at Faslane to somewhere South of the border really makes that much difference in the long term.

Arion640 wrote:
I would like to see a period of stability after the pandemic is over without anymore referendums. I think the UK needs that.

Then a proper discussion can be had on the issue.


You mean that you don't think that the incompetent government should risk being judged on its track record? Why is now the time to draw a line in the sand and not say 2015?


Arion640 wrote:
it will likely prove Nicola Sturgeon broke ministerial code. But we’ll see.


Ah, so breaking ministerial code is suddenly not ok? I look forward to the media holding Sturgeon to account and putting her feet to the fire exactly as they did to Priti Patel, Matt Hancock and Bojo. :lol:

Image

Image

Image

It should of course be pointed out that Sturgeon referred herself to the ministerial ethics board.

Boeing74741R wrote:
This could be a very uncomfortable hearing for Sturgeon, especially if it is revealed she breached the ministerial code as it then becomes a resignation matter.


:rotfl:


I’m all for holding Hancocks feet to the fire, ditto Boris, ditto Priti. Priti should probably have been sacked by now.

Strugeons clearly broke the ministerial code and should resign.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 14861
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:33 am

flyguy89 wrote:
zkojq wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
I’ll be curious to see though, if the UK’s vaccination strategy is indeed successful and the EU vaccination effort continues to drag, if that will at all impact independence sentiment in Scotland.


Why would you think that COVID would make Scots more likely to support being part of the Union? Boris and the Westminster government have done an absolutely awful job at managing it:

If the UK vaccination strategy indeed proves successful and life in the UK drifts back to normalcy while the EU remains saddled with restrictions and mired in ramping up vaccinations, I could see that as dampening independence sentiment and reinvigorating some confidence in the union. It’s not like that many minds would have to be changed seeing as most polling is showing only a small plurality in favor of independence. Of course if either of those things don’t come to pass it’s a moot point.


The timing might be good for BoJo, but the EU vaccination will be at worst 6 weeks behind the UK, not light years away.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 2410
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:37 pm

Arion640 wrote:
I’m all for holding Hancocks feet to the fire, ditto Boris, ditto Priti. Priti should probably have been sacked by now.

Strugeons clearly broke the ministerial code and should resign.


Afraid the horse has already bolted on that one.

As usual, Brexiteers set a precedent for SNP to benefit from:

“Boris Johnson's adviser on the ministerial code has resigned after the PM backed Home Secretary Priti Patel over a bullying inquiry.

Standards chief Sir Alex Allan found that Ms Patel had broken the code governing ministers' behaviour.
But the PM rejected his findings, saying he did not think Ms Patel was a bully and had "full confidence" in her.”

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-55 ... iano-modal

Priti didn’t have to resign. Ergo, neither does Sturgeon (IF she’s found in breach).
 
Arion640
Posts: 3262
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Wed Feb 24, 2021 1:11 am

ElPistolero wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
I’m all for holding Hancocks feet to the fire, ditto Boris, ditto Priti. Priti should probably have been sacked by now.

Strugeons clearly broke the ministerial code and should resign.


Afraid the horse has already bolted on that one.

As usual, Brexiteers set a precedent for SNP to benefit from:

“Boris Johnson's adviser on the ministerial code has resigned after the PM backed Home Secretary Priti Patel over a bullying inquiry.

Standards chief Sir Alex Allan found that Ms Patel had broken the code governing ministers' behaviour.
But the PM rejected his findings, saying he did not think Ms Patel was a bully and had "full confidence" in her.”

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-55 ... iano-modal

Priti didn’t have to resign. Ergo, neither does Sturgeon (IF she’s found in breach).


Sturgeon doesn’t have to resign if found in breach but it’s recommended she does is my understanding.

The current tory government is an embarrassment and Priti, Hancock and Boris should all resign once we’ve wound down the pandemic.
 
Arion640
Posts: 3262
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Sun Feb 28, 2021 5:23 pm

Vote of no confidence motion to be tabled for Scotlands deputy first minister. Unlikely to be passed but interesting never the less.

I see one for Nicola sturgeon on the horizon.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland- ... s-56231222
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 14861
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:47 pm

That's good, I wish the same would happen with half the UK cabinet, especially those who broke not the ministerial code but the law.
 
Arion640
Posts: 3262
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Mon Mar 01, 2021 12:30 am

Aesma wrote:
That's good, I wish the same would happen with half the UK cabinet, especially those who broke not the ministerial code but the law.


Oh don’t worry - I need absolutely no convincing on that one.
 
A101
Topic Author
Posts: 2586
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Mon Mar 01, 2021 2:46 am

Aesma wrote:
That's good, I wish the same would happen with half the UK cabinet, especially those who broke not the ministerial code but the law.




Which law are you referring to?

I’d say half the population break the law everyday and don’t bat an eyelid about it.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 14861
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:32 am

Bullying, dodgy contracts, to name a couple.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 2410
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Mon Mar 01, 2021 4:30 pm

Pretty thorough analysis by Andrew Marr on this issue. His bottom line re: the Salmond / Sturgeon issue is worth highlighting:

“Jubilant Unionists should, however, be careful. The reach and power of the SNP, and the settled enthusiasm for independence, particularly among younger voters, means that even this row may not be enough to shift numbers in the UK’s favour any time soon. Profound problems in the nationalist camp do not in themselves make London more loved; they don’t make Brexit more popular; they don’t make “freedom” sound duller.”

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/maga ... nd-england

Seems pretty clear that if it does happen, it will be a legacy of Brexit.
 
bennett123
Posts: 10886
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Tue Mar 02, 2021 5:18 pm

I was living/working in Edinburgh during the first referendum.

My recollection is that things got a lot more heated than you suggest.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 2410
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Tue Mar 02, 2021 5:40 pm

bennett123 wrote:
I was living/working in Edinburgh during the first referendum.

My recollection is that things got a lot more heated than you suggest.


Didn’t say they won’t get heated.

Just can’t see it tearing up Scotland’s social fabric the way Brexit has done for the UK. Ironically, Brexit has gone a long way to ensuring that.

My Scot connections were all passionately pro-union 6 years ago (and pro-remain during the Brexit referendum). Now they range from lukewarm supporters of independence, to lukewarm supporters of the union resigned to independence.

There’s a (slightly surreal) resignation and calmness about it all. In some cases, literally a “shrug” attitude. Can’t see them getting too angry by an independence vote - in stark contrast to 6 years ago.
 
Boeing74741R
Posts: 1535
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:44 am

Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Wed Mar 03, 2021 8:57 am

I would hazard a guess it's because right now they are not being asked to vote on it. I expect views to become more entrenched and passionate in the run-up to another vote (if one happens).

Then again, I suspect that surveys done within the last few months suggesting that having another vote on independence is way down the list of priorities for many Scots at this time rings true, even for some of those who are pro-indy. I also suspect a lot of Scots are fed up of the subject being brought up regularly when a decade is yet to pass since the last vote, though I suppose it's to be expected from a party (SNP) whose raison d'etre is independence. I know if I was living in Scotland I can think of more urgent priorities for Holyrood to focus on at this time than independence.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 2410
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Wed Mar 03, 2021 2:12 pm

That’s probably true, but:

- the ‘newer’/post-Brexit pro-independence crowd are unlikely to change their stripes again. When passions increase, I suspect it’ll make them more pro-independence.

- although anecdotal, this pattern is likely to be sufficiently replicated across the population writ large, which might be enough to tip 44/45 to 51.

The unspoken elephant in the room is that many pro-Union Scots are also anti-Brexit, and they’re wavering on the former because of the latter. Enough to tip the outcome? I don’t know. All I think is that, because of Brexit, the electoral landscape looks very different from 2014.

Worse yet (from a union perspective), I think it’s slowly beginning to morph into an inevitability in people’s minds. If not independence tomorrow, then in a decade. When that mindset sets in, it inevitably tempers passions.
 
User avatar
SQ22
Moderator
Posts: 2388
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:29 am

Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Sat Mar 06, 2021 9:19 am

Please provide links to your sources when stating facts.

Please keep this thread on topic or it will be locked.
 
A101
Topic Author
Posts: 2586
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Mon Mar 08, 2021 1:20 pm

Next few polls are going to be interesting to see if the trend continues, I’m wondering is Sturgeon might have peaked early. Certainly going to be interesting to watch


https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theg ... l-suggests
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 14861
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Mon Mar 08, 2021 2:09 pm

SNP gains more than 7000 new members after Nicola Sturgeon's committee appearance

https://www.thenational.scot/news/19136 ... ppearance/
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 14861
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Mon Mar 08, 2021 2:16 pm

A101 : that poll has been debunked, they didn't apply the voter turnout weighting like for previous polls.
 
Arion640
Posts: 3262
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Tue Mar 09, 2021 9:38 am

SNP under pressure to suspend sexual harassment MP’s

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/191 ... ss-speaks/
 
Boeing74741R
Posts: 1535
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:44 am

Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Tue Mar 09, 2021 1:57 pm

Aesma wrote:
SNP gains more than 7000 new members after Nicola Sturgeon's committee appearance

https://www.thenational.scot/news/19136 ... ppearance/


The National are a pro-indy outfit that came into existence not long after the 2014 referendum, so I expect any articles concerning the constitutional question and about parties that are in favour of independence to be slanted appropriately.

As for the spike in members, how many of those are otherwise pro-indy and deciding to join the SNP now? Also, how many of them are former members, as at least one tweet for its source specifically said they rejoined?

It's also worth bearing in mind two things: -

*Some parties usually gain members after losing an election
*The Labour Party had around half a million members or so at one point under Jeremy Corbyn's leadership, yet in 2019 they won their lowest ever amount of seats since the 1930's

In a roundabout way, I'm saying that I don't read too much into membership surges or how many members a party has. History has proven time and again the electorate decides who governs at the ballot box, not who can boast the most amount of members within their ranks.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 14861
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Tue Mar 09, 2021 8:11 pm

But there was no election, lost or otherwise. There was a scandal that some hoped would sink Sturgeon/SNP (and openly called for it) and that caused a surge in membership.

Same with the poll "showing" independance behind remain, some "newspapers" had no problem publishing it, then it turns out the numbers weren't corrected like they should have been.
 
Boeing74741R
Posts: 1535
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:44 am

Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Wed Mar 10, 2021 1:28 pm

Aesma wrote:
But there was no election, lost or otherwise. There was a scandal that some hoped would sink Sturgeon/SNP (and openly called for it) and that caused a surge in membership.

Same with the poll "showing" independance behind remain, some "newspapers" had no problem publishing it, then it turns out the numbers weren't corrected like they should have been.


I agree there hasn't been an election (but there is one coming up), though my point is that I personally don't read too much into membership numbers. The Alex Salmond scandal is still live in the sense the Holyrood committee looking into it that both Sturgeon and Salmond appeared to give evidence for recently is still investigating, as well as the separate investigation by James Hamilton QC into whether Sturgeon actually broke the ministerial code or not.

I also agree there are some that were hoping that the recent appearances would sink Sturgeon. That didn't happen as we know, but I would say she hasn't come out of last week's committee appearance smelling of roses and nor is she fully out of the woods. It'll be interesting to see what the final reports are from both the committee and James Hamilton QC. Either one or both of these has the potential to sink Sturgeon, as well as damage the SNP's electoral chances if their investigations are completed and published within the next few weeks before the election. If the SNP don't get the numbers to command a majority or enough to form a minority government like at the present time (and they can do that if the pro-indy Scottish Greens get enough seats, as I can't imagine Labour/Conservatives/Lib Dems will work with the SNP unless referendums are off the table), that will likely end talk of a second referendum for a while.

Either way, the Salmond scandal is negative publicity that I imagine the party and its election strategists could do without in the run-up to the Holyrood elections in May for as long as it is live. If the investigations exonerate Sturgeon, particularly the Hamilton investigation into whether she broke the ministerial code, then that will of course be good for them providing the public are still convinced they can be trusted.
 
A101
Topic Author
Posts: 2586
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Wed Mar 10, 2021 8:41 pm

Boeing74741R wrote:
Aesma wrote:
But there was no election, lost or otherwise. There was a scandal that some hoped would sink Sturgeon/SNP (and openly called for it) and that caused a surge in membership.

Same with the poll "showing" independance behind remain, some "newspapers" had no problem publishing it, then it turns out the numbers weren't corrected like they should have been.


I agree there hasn't been an election (but there is one coming up), though my point is that I personally don't read too much into membership numbers. The Alex Salmond scandal is still live in the sense the Holyrood committee looking into it that both Sturgeon and Salmond appeared to give evidence for recently is still investigating, as well as the separate investigation by James Hamilton QC into whether Sturgeon actually broke the ministerial code or not.

I also agree there are some that were hoping that the recent appearances would sink Sturgeon. That didn't happen as we know, but I would say she hasn't come out of last week's committee appearance smelling of roses and nor is she fully out of the woods. It'll be interesting to see what the final reports are from both the committee and James Hamilton QC. Either one or both of these has the potential to sink Sturgeon, as well as damage the SNP's electoral chances if their investigations are completed and published within the next few weeks before the election. If the SNP don't get the numbers to command a majority or enough to form a minority government like at the present time (and they can do that if the pro-indy Scottish Greens get enough seats, as I can't imagine Labour/Conservatives/Lib Dems will work with the SNP unless referendums are off the table), that will likely end talk of a second referendum for a while.

Either way, the Salmond scandal is negative publicity that I imagine the party and its election strategists could do without in the run-up to the Holyrood elections in May for as long as it is live. If the investigations exonerate Sturgeon, particularly the Hamilton investigation into whether she broke the ministerial code, then that will of course be good for them providing the public are still convinced they can be trusted.



I would be very surprised if the reports were released during the run up to the election, as it could be tantamount to swaying the results of the election

I guess it comes down to should the report be released during an election campaign
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 14861
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Thu Mar 11, 2021 5:36 am

BTW this Salmond thing is quite ridiculous. 10 women accused him of sexual harassment, did they all lie ? Are they facing trial for lying ?

Yes he was cleared because it was a "they said/he said" situation, but that doesn't mean he didn't do anything, it means it wasn't proven.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 5151
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Thu Mar 11, 2021 2:26 pm

Generally when it comes to he said/she said a politician in the US with only one case survives. Three or more, strike out. Note, this does not include Republicans, the more cases the better.
 
ChrisKen
Posts: 1096
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:15 pm

Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:07 pm

Aesma wrote:
BTW this Salmond thing is quite ridiculous. 10 women accused him of sexual harassment, did they all lie ? Are they facing trial for lying ?

Yes he was cleared because it was a "they said/he said" situation, but that doesn't mean he didn't do anything, it means it wasn't proven.

He was cleared on 12 charges, one charge was dropped and the remaining charge of Sexual assault with the intent to rape was returned as "not proven". While a "not proven" verdict is technically an acquittal, "not proven" is typically used by a jury when there is a belief that the defendant is guilty but the crown has not provided sufficient evidence.
 
Boeing74741R
Posts: 1535
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:44 am

Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Fri Mar 12, 2021 12:54 pm

A101 wrote:
I would be very surprised if the reports were released during the run up to the election, as it could be tantamount to swaying the results of the election

I guess it comes down to should the report be released during an election campaign


I'm not sure what it's like in Holyrood, but commissioning inquiries with the publication date of the report set until "after the election" is a typical tactic used, presumably to either avoid having to make an unpopular decision (and, in some cases, conveniently make it an issue for whoever wins the election to handle, especially if they're set to lose anyway) or to delay the inevitable of a report being published that makes for uncomfortable reading for the ruling party.

It is a dilemma for SNP election strategists. On the one hand, getting the reports out in the open before the election means everyone knows where they stand. If the reports clear the Scottish Government and/or Nicola Sturgeon respectively, they can use this in their campaigning to prove they did nothing wrong and deserve re-election, as well as to try and address their polling (which appears to have dropped over the last week or so). If the reports confirm the Scottish Government made a mess of it and/or Sturgeon broke the ministerial code, at least everyone knows and they can decide whether it's serious enough to vote them out or not. On the other hand, if the reports are published after the election then it kicks the outcome down the road and the other parties will use what we know so far against them in the run-up to the election, therefore making it difficult to try and move on from the subject.

Either way, if the reports conclude that Sturgeon broke the ministerial code and/or concludes the government were in the wrong, she's finished. It doesn't matter whether they come out whilst she's First Minister before or after the election as it would make her position just as untenable.
 
A101
Topic Author
Posts: 2586
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Fri Mar 19, 2021 12:03 am

Looks like the Holyrood committee into Sturgeon misleading Parliament has voted she did, will be interesting to see the fall out. I doubt very much she would fall on her own sword over it unless pushed.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ttee-finds
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 14861
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Fri Mar 19, 2021 3:58 am

In a way the election coming is an easy out for her, if you're OK with her, vote SNP, if not, don't.

Just like BoJo won the 2019 election after having lied to the Queen to do unconstitutional stuff that was unthinkable before...
 
gkirk
Posts: 23456
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2000 3:29 am

Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Fri Mar 19, 2021 7:32 am

A101 wrote:
Looks like the Holyrood committee into Sturgeon misleading Parliament has voted she did, will be interesting to see the fall out. I doubt very much she would fall on her own sword over it unless pushed.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ttee-finds

Most of the comittee had made their minds up before the investigation started anyway...more leaks before the fianl report is published. A Tory tactic.

SNP will hopefully win the election with a majority.
 
A101
Topic Author
Posts: 2586
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Fri Mar 19, 2021 11:45 am

Aesma wrote:
In a way the election coming is an easy out for her, if you're OK with her, vote SNP, if not, don't.

Just like BoJo won the 2019 election after having lied to the Queen to do unconstitutional stuff that was unthinkable before...


Well he actually didn’t lie to the Queen, but there were ulterior motives for the prorogue of Parliament, Johnson is not the only one that has done it for political reasons John Major(97)and Clement Attlee(48) use of prorogue comes to mind to bypass Parliament


The only ones who can vote out Sturgeon is her own constituency, so no only a protest vote against the party can happen for the majority
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 2410
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:39 pm

“Nicola Sturgeon did not break the ministerial code over the Alex Salmond affair. This is the verdict of James Hamilton QC after his inquiry, with a 61-page report that clears her on all four charges. She got things wrong in her account to parliament, Hamilton said, by giving an 'incomplete narrative of events.' But this was a 'genuine failure of recollection' and not deliberate. Coming just two days before the start of the Holyrood election campaign, it's a strong an exoneration as she could have hoped for.”

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/ham ... our-counts

So that’s that, then.
 
A101
Topic Author
Posts: 2586
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Mon Mar 22, 2021 8:58 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
“Nicola Sturgeon did not break the ministerial code over the Alex Salmond affair. This is the verdict of James Hamilton QC after his inquiry, with a 61-page report that clears her on all four charges. She got things wrong in her account to parliament, Hamilton said, by giving an 'incomplete narrative of events.' But this was a 'genuine failure of recollection' and not deliberate. Coming just two days before the start of the Holyrood election campaign, it's a strong an exoneration as she could have hoped for.”

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/ham ... our-counts

So that’s that, then.



It’s not that, then.

Sturgeon still has to get over the no confidence motion in which I think she will. From what I have read in various news reports it’s certainly not cut and dried. At the end of the day it’s still an opinion of Hamilton on whether she did or not using the rules at the time.

Apparently it’s still up to Scottish Parliament to decide if she mislead Parliament. I think she will survive the no confidence motion as for the rest it’s up to the Scottish electorate to decide her ultimate fate, my personal opinion is she will take a hit but will weather her storm.
 
Boeing74741R
Posts: 1535
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:44 am

Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:12 pm

A101 wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
“Nicola Sturgeon did not break the ministerial code over the Alex Salmond affair. This is the verdict of James Hamilton QC after his inquiry, with a 61-page report that clears her on all four charges. She got things wrong in her account to parliament, Hamilton said, by giving an 'incomplete narrative of events.' But this was a 'genuine failure of recollection' and not deliberate. Coming just two days before the start of the Holyrood election campaign, it's a strong an exoneration as she could have hoped for.”

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/ham ... our-counts

So that’s that, then.



It’s not that, then.

Sturgeon still has to get over the no confidence motion in which I think she will. From what I have read in various news reports it’s certainly not cut and dried. At the end of the day it’s still an opinion of Hamilton on whether she did or not using the rules at the time.

Apparently it’s still up to Scottish Parliament to decide if she mislead Parliament. I think she will survive the no confidence motion as for the rest it’s up to the Scottish electorate to decide her ultimate fate, my personal opinion is she will take a hit but will weather her storm.


My view is that Sturgeon is off the hook, so to speak, over breaking the ministerial code, and I too expect the no-confidence motion to fail (predictably with the Scottish Greens lining up to support the SNP). However, the Holyrood committee's report concluding that parliament was misled and believing that her version of events was inaccurate, as well as general failings by civil servants, gives the saga oxygen to run for a bit longer yet and leaves legitimate questions about trust, failings of process, apparent obstruction (remember, it took two votes in Holyrood and a threat of a no-confidence vote on John Swinney to release more documents recently) and why nobody to date has been held accountable. I fully expect this to be a theme during the election campaign and time will tell whether it cuts any ice with voters. Come to think of it, it's probably the first scandal in a long time that I can think of that's been swiftly followed by an election. Regardless, it's fair to say nobody has come out of this smelling of roses.

It also remains to be seen whether Alex Salmond has any more proverbial rabbits to pull out the hat over this.

A101 wrote:
The only ones who can vote out Sturgeon is her own constituency, so no only a protest vote against the party can happen for the majority


True. I don't think the scandal has shown up Sturgeon and the SNP in a positive light regardless of the outcomes of the various inquiries. Like I said, it will depend if the issue cuts any ice with voters over other matters, such as their record in power.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 2410
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:19 pm

A101 wrote:
It’s not that, then.


No?

“A total of 31 MSPs backed the motion, with 65 voting against. There were 27 abstentions.”

https://news.sky.com/story/scotlands-fi ... p-12254613

A101 wrote:
Sturgeon still has to get over the no confidence motion in which I think she will. From what I have read in various news reports it’s certainly not cut and dried.


31-65.

Not even close.

A101 wrote:
At the end of the day it’s still an opinion of Hamilton on whether she did or not using the rules at the time.


Great, we can now dismiss all breaches of the ministerial code as opinions of one individual. Probably why everyone’s stopped taking these breaches seriously. Starting with Boris.

Guess that’s the last we’re ever going to hear about the ministerial code around here.

A101 wrote:
Apparently it’s still up to Scottish Parliament to decide if she mislead Parliament. I think she will survive the no confidence motion as for the rest it’s up to the Scottish electorate to decide her ultimate fate, my personal opinion is she will take a hit but will weather her storm.


I’m ambivalent about her fortunes. More interested in how this affects IndyRef than what it does to her and SNP.

By the looks of it, she’ll reap the benefits of Brexit, which conclusively demonstrated that the many personal flaws of the leaders of a movement have no bearing on the success of the movement itself.

She’s not going to come out smelling like roses, no. But she’ll still smell a damn sight better than Farage, Cummings etc when this is done and dusted. They changed the rules of the game. To her apparent advantage.
 
A101
Topic Author
Posts: 2586
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Tue Mar 23, 2021 7:39 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
A101 wrote:

It’s not that, then.


No?

“A total of 31 MSPs backed the motion, with 65 voting against. There were 27 abstentions.”

https://news.sky.com/story/scotlands-fi ... p-12254613

A101 wrote:
Sturgeon still has to get over the no confidence motion in which I think she will. From what I have read in various news reports it’s certainly not cut and dried.


31-65.

Not even close.

A101 wrote:
At the end of the day it’s still an opinion of Hamilton on whether she did or not using the rules at the time.


Great, we can now dismiss all breaches of the ministerial code as opinions of one individual. Probably why everyone’s stopped taking these breaches seriously. Starting with Boris.

Guess that’s the last we’re ever going to hear about the ministerial code around here.

.


What I said was true, it’s easy for you to comment and post the results after the fact.

As for the ministerial code , as I said it is still one persons opinion if the code was broken he has only made the decision from which his remit required nothing more nothing less, a lot could be said about the difficulty in getting documents if she didn’t think she didn’t breech the code, why make it so difficult if she thought she was right.


ElPistolero wrote:
A101 wrote:
Apparently it’s still up to Scottish Parliament to decide if she mislead Parliament. I think she will survive the no confidence motion as for the rest it’s up to the Scottish electorate to decide her ultimate fate, my personal opinion is she will take a hit but will weather her storm.


I’m ambivalent about her fortunes. More interested in how this affects IndyRef than what it does to her and SNP.

By the looks of it, she’ll reap the benefits of Brexit, which conclusively demonstrated that the many personal flaws of the leaders of a movement have no bearing on the success of the movement itself.

She’s not going to come out smelling like roses, no. But she’ll still smell a damn sight better than Farage, Cummings etc when this is done and dusted. They changed the rules of the game. To her apparent advantage.


Agree not really fussed either way if she stays or goes, and that actually is the same with BJ. Out of all the options in the last GE he was a means to an end, if you look back you will have seen I’m no fan of BJ but he was the closest one to achieving the result of the referenda compared to all the other parties at the time. You can only vote for the party that is closely aligned to your own convictions and that will be the same for the Scottish
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 2410
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Thu Mar 25, 2021 2:36 pm

A101 wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
A101 wrote:

It’s not that, then.


No?

“A total of 31 MSPs backed the motion, with 65 voting against. There were 27 abstentions.”

https://news.sky.com/story/scotlands-fi ... p-12254613

A101 wrote:
Sturgeon still has to get over the no confidence motion in which I think she will. From what I have read in various news reports it’s certainly not cut and dried.


31-65.

Not even close.

A101 wrote:
At the end of the day it’s still an opinion of Hamilton on whether she did or not using the rules at the time.


Great, we can now dismiss all breaches of the ministerial code as opinions of one individual. Probably why everyone’s stopped taking these breaches seriously. Starting with Boris.

Guess that’s the last we’re ever going to hear about the ministerial code around here.

.


What I said was true, it’s easy for you to comment and post the results after the fact.

As for the ministerial code , as I said it is still one persons opinion if the code was broken he has only made the decision from which his remit required nothing more nothing less, a lot could be said about the difficulty in getting documents if she didn’t think she didn’t breech the code, why make it so difficult if she thought she was right.


ElPistolero wrote:
A101 wrote:
Apparently it’s still up to Scottish Parliament to decide if she mislead Parliament. I think she will survive the no confidence motion as for the rest it’s up to the Scottish electorate to decide her ultimate fate, my personal opinion is she will take a hit but will weather her storm.


I’m ambivalent about her fortunes. More interested in how this affects IndyRef than what it does to her and SNP.

By the looks of it, she’ll reap the benefits of Brexit, which conclusively demonstrated that the many personal flaws of the leaders of a movement have no bearing on the success of the movement itself.

She’s not going to come out smelling like roses, no. But she’ll still smell a damn sight better than Farage, Cummings etc when this is done and dusted. They changed the rules of the game. To her apparent advantage.


Agree not really fussed either way if she stays or goes, and that actually is the same with BJ. Out of all the options in the last GE he was a means to an end, if you look back you will have seen I’m no fan of BJ but he was the closest one to achieving the result of the referenda compared to all the other parties at the time. You can only vote for the party that is closely aligned to your own convictions and that will be the same for the Scottish


Shrug. Just noting that others - even hardcore Brexiteers like this one - have long argued that she was going to prevail in the “not cut and dried” vote of no confidence :

“Even if the report by James Hamilton had concluded that Sturgeon had not only broken the ministerial code but had set fire to it and danced maniacally on its smoking cinders while filming it all on TikTok, she would have won a vote of confidence with the support of her Green friends.”

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/0 ... le-no-one/

As for the Ministerial code, either it matters or it doesn’t.

Dismissing it as “still one person’s opinion” tells us all we need to know: it doesn’t matter. Never has. Which begs the question - why was it brought up here in the first place?

Like the whole Salmond affair. What’s the angle here? That it’ll chip off just enough of the SNP’s vote to flip the election?

It’s ‘grasping for straws’ territory; the Scottish independence movement isn’t just going to go away with a deposed Sturgeon.
 
A101
Topic Author
Posts: 2586
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:56 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
Shrug. Just noting that others - even hardcore Brexiteers like this one - have long argued that she was going to prevail in the “not cut and dried” vote of no confidence :

“Even if the report by James Hamilton had concluded that Sturgeon had not only broken the ministerial code but had set fire to it and danced maniacally on its smoking cinders while filming it all on TikTok, she would have won a vote of confidence with the support of her Green friends.”

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/0 ... le-no-one/


I haven’t got a sub to the Tele so can’t read it. My post regarding “cut & dried” refers to the political mechanisms (back room deals)which prevail in politics in which this seems to infers too,

ElPistolero wrote:
As for the Ministerial code, either it matters or it doesn’t.
Dismissing it as “still one person’s opinion” tells us all we need to know: it doesn’t matter. Never has. Which begs the question - why was it brought up here in the first place?


I not dismissing the code if it matters or not that is you putting that out there,

As for one person opinion Hamilton himself stated that fact in his published report;
18.2. For the reasons set out in detail above in this Report I am of the opinion
that the First Minister did not breach the provisions of the Ministerial Code in
respect of any of these matters.


https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/ ... 1616431281

ElPistolero wrote:
Like the whole Salmond affair. What’s the angle here? That it’ll chip off just enough of the SNP’s vote to flip the election?

It’s ‘grasping for straws’ territory; the Scottish independence movement isn’t just going to go away with a deposed Sturgeon.


Its all political each have there own agenda on what has transpired especially in context of a GE, if you care to look at post #129 I questioned the timing of the release of the report so no I’m not grasping at straws

Also as I pointed out earlier I have read many articles across the media, this I believe puts the report into perspective

It does no such thing. Instead, the report deals with a possible breach of the Ministerial Code by Nicola Sturgeon on the question of whether she ‘failed to feed back’ the terms of her various meetings with Alex Salmond and others between March and July 2018. Mr Hamilton’s 61-page report concludes that she is not guilty on that ‘failure to feed back’ point. On the more significant issue of her misleading Parliament the verdict of the Holyrood Inquiry report, which has still not been published, will be determinative.


Its the perception that counts in a GE

The terms of James Hamilton’s remit are vital to anyone assessing the value and significance of his report. An attempt to have the remit widened was desperately resisted by John Swinney the Deputy First Minister. A recent request under Freedom of Information laws by a journalist to access the emails between Mr Swinney and Mr Hamilton on the question of the width of the remit was partially rejected by the Scottish government on what appear to be highly doubtful grounds. It’s probably correct to view that incident as just another aspect of the SNP government’s desperation to conceal the whole truth from the Scottish public.


On the most important matters of the First Minister’s explanation for her behaviour in respect of the meetings with Salmond on 29 March and 2 April, Mr Hamilton finds that her account is ‘not impossible’ (Paragraph 7.10). On any view this is hardly a ringing endorsement of Nicola Sturgeon’s reliability


https://spectator.com.au/2021/03/the-ha ... -sturgeon/


At the end of the day Hamilton is using his personal opinion under the remit which Sturgeon laid down, the Parliamentary committee is looking at whether Sturgeon mislead Parliament which the Hamilton reports confirms, she has as she has failed to tell Parliament about the earlier meeting. one has to look at the remit on both to get to the conclusions and both are correct, How Sturgeon chooses to spin it is about fighting for her survival of her political life


One important fact within the Hamilton report is steering clear on whether the code needs tightening up as part of his remit;

18.3. The remit also invited me to consider “whether the Ministerial Code might need revision to reflect the terms of the Procedure and the strict limitations itplaces on the involvement of the First Minister in cases which fall to be considered under the Procedure.” In view of the urgency of addressing the other issues relating to alleged breaches of the Ministerial Code which are referred to in the remit I decided to defer consideration of this. It would also in my opinion be appropriate that the other independent adviser also take part in this process. It would also seem sensible to await decisions on what changes if any are to be made to the Procedure. It might also be appropriate to consider the matters relating to special advisers referred to in Chapter 16 in this context.
 
chimborazo
Posts: 446
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:51 pm

Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Sat Mar 27, 2021 1:22 am

Cut Scotland off and let it float up towards the North Pole... they will freeze.

I will be sorry to see them go - I have some good Scottish friends and it’s a beautiful country. But I’ll tired of the anti-English. I’m tired of the politics.

Just go do your thing. Scotland will be a failed state and this makes me sad because I rather like it.

I’m not saying it shouldn’t even be independent but it can’t function under the idiots there now.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 2410
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Sat Mar 27, 2021 2:56 pm

A101 wrote:

I haven’t got a sub to the Tele so can’t read it. My post regarding “cut & dried” refers to the political mechanisms (back room deals)which prevail in politics in which this seems to infers too,


What backroom deal were you thinking of here? The Tories convincing the Greens to turn on Sturgeon?

Was never going to happen, was it?

A101 wrote:
I not dismissing the code if it matters or not that is you putting that out there,

As for one person opinion Hamilton himself stated that fact in his published report;
18.2. For the reasons set out in detail above in this Report I am of the opinion
that the First Minister did not breach the provisions of the Ministerial Code in
respect of any of these matters.


Every breach of the ministerial code is based on an individual’s opinion. From what I gather, that is why they pick distinguished individuals to opine on ministerial breaches. Hamilton is a QC, is he not? Thought that meant something?

If we’re now dismissing his findings because he’s just “one person”, then it stands to reason that ministerial code breaches dont matter, because they’re always just “one person’s opinion.

A101 wrote:
Its all political each have there own agenda on what has transpired especially in context of a GE, if you care to look at post #129 I questioned the timing of the release of the report so no I’m not grasping at straws


If it’s all political theatre, and the outcome was known all along, what was the point of bringing it up here?

A101 wrote:
Also as I pointed out earlier I have read many articles across the media, this I believe puts the report into perspective

It does no such thing. Instead, the report deals with a possible breach of the Ministerial Code by Nicola Sturgeon on the question of whether she ‘failed to feed back’ the terms of her various meetings with Alex Salmond and others between March and July 2018. Mr Hamilton’s 61-page report concludes that she is not guilty on that ‘failure to feed back’ point. On the more significant issue of her misleading Parliament the verdict of the Holyrood Inquiry report, which has still not been published, will be determinative.


Its the perception that counts in a GE


The Scot Tories didn’t help by going for an unwinnable (or losing a winnable) confidence vote that effectively put her on a pedestal and gave her a stick to beat them with.

The only takeaway for your average Scot voter is: Sturgeon was accused of something, found not to have breached the ministerial code, and retains the confidence of the majority of their elected representatives.

In the “perception game”, some silly political theatre and overreach has turned impending doom into likely election victory.

A101 wrote:
The terms of James Hamilton’s remit are vital to anyone assessing the value and significance of his report. An attempt to have the remit widened was desperately resisted by John Swinney the Deputy First Minister. A recent request under Freedom of Information laws by a journalist to access the emails between Mr Swinney and Mr Hamilton on the question of the width of the remit was partially rejected by the Scottish government on what appear to be highly doubtful grounds. It’s probably correct to view that incident as just another aspect of the SNP government’s desperation to conceal the whole truth from the Scottish public.


On the most important matters of the First Minister’s explanation for her behaviour in respect of the meetings with Salmond on 29 March and 2 April, Mr Hamilton finds that her account is ‘not impossible’ (Paragraph 7.10). On any view this is hardly a ringing endorsement of Nicola Sturgeon’s reliability


https://spectator.com.au/2021/03/the-ha ... -sturgeon/


Unfortunate, then, that Scots are unlikely to pay close attention to these details and nuances in a London Tory establishment magazine long associated with Boris, and which famously loathes Scottish independence.

I’m a huge fan of the Spectator. But on Scotland, they’ve lost their sense of balance and have become prone to these types of straw-grasping exercises. Seems to be down to the otherwise sane Fraser Nelson coming undone - quite publicly - after being dismissed by the his fellow Scots as an Englishman in all but name (he professes to be a Scotsman). In SNP’s defence, Nelson is as Scottish as Priti Patel is an Indian citizen (she’s not).

As it is, their criticism of the whole thing is based on the process - a process they somehow never thought to criticize until they didn’t get the result they wanted.

A101 wrote:
At the end of the day Hamilton is using his personal opinion under the remit which Sturgeon laid down, the Parliamentary committee is looking at whether Sturgeon mislead Parliament which the Hamilton reports confirms, she has as she has failed to tell Parliament about the earlier meeting. one has to look at the remit on both to get to the conclusions and both are correct, How Sturgeon chooses to spin it is about fighting for her survival of her political life

One important fact within the Hamilton report is steering clear on whether the code needs tightening up as part of his remit;

18.3. The remit also invited me to consider “whether the Ministerial Code might need revision to reflect the terms of the Procedure and the strict limitations itplaces on the involvement of the First Minister in cases which fall to be considered under the Procedure.” In view of the urgency of addressing the other issues relating to alleged breaches of the Ministerial Code which are referred to in the remit I decided to defer consideration of this. It would also in my opinion be appropriate that the other independent adviser also take part in this process. It would also seem sensible to await decisions on what changes if any are to be made to the Procedure. It might also be appropriate to consider the matters relating to special advisers referred to in Chapter 16 in this context.


Again, that’s the process. If it’s so broken, why was it brought up as an issue here?

But anyway, good call on removing that cartoon you posted. Couldn’t help but notice two Freudian slips shining through:

- Portraying Sturgeon, elected Scottish First Minister, as the UK (or was it English) man’s dog. We read a lot about anti-English sentiment in Scotland. Is that how the English view Scots? As their dogs?

- Portraying a senior elected female leader as a man’s dog .... interesting optics. Bizarrely misogynistic and backward in this day and age. Which pro-Brexit site did you pull it from?
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 12712
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Sat Mar 27, 2021 3:07 pm

chimborazo wrote:
Cut Scotland off and let it float up towards the North Pole... they will freeze.

I will be sorry to see them go - I have some good Scottish friends and it’s a beautiful country. But I’ll tired of the anti-English. I’m tired of the politics.

Just go do your thing. Scotland will be a failed state and this makes me sad because I rather like it.

I’m not saying it shouldn’t even be independent but it can’t function under the idiots there now.


Oh boy, if you would substitute Scotland for another entity, you know how some of us felt on the mainland a few years ago. But I tend to agree. I am not for splitting up countries/entities into smaller and smaller pieces, but if the will is so strong to do it, well, do it already, but also face the consequences of your choice. No cherry-picking: Scotts.
 
A101
Topic Author
Posts: 2586
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Sat Mar 27, 2021 6:01 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
A101 wrote:
I haven’t got a sub to the Tele so can’t read it. My post regarding “cut & dried” refers to the political mechanisms (back room deals) which prevail in politics in which this seems to infers too,

What backroom deal were you thinking of here? The Tories convincing the Greens to turn on Sturgeon?
Was never going to happen, was it?


Wasn’t referring to any deal in particular as such, but the general wheeling & dealing behind closed doors that may or may not come to light due to leaks
ElPistolero wrote:
A101 wrote:
I not dismissing the code if it matters or not that is you putting that out there,
As for one person opinion Hamilton himself stated that fact in his published report;

18.2. For the reasons set out in detail above in this Report I am of the opinion that the First Minister did not breach the provisions of the Ministerial Code in respect of any of these matters.



Every breach of the ministerial code is based on an individual’s opinion. From what I gather, that is why they pick distinguished individuals to opine on ministerial breaches. Hamilton is a QC, is he not? Thought that meant something?
If we’re now dismissing his findings because he’s just “one person”, then it stands to reason that ministerial code breaches dont matter, because they’re always just “one person’s opinion.


The thing is that when people read the findings (not that many would bother) they will then form their own opinion of the matter and look at the evidence presented.

Hamilton is only really presenting the spin given by Sturgeon and giving her breathing space for reasonable doubt, while I agree that the findings for the omission is plausible it can be greeted with scepticism or down right suspicion, but at the end of the day he is presenting his finding only under the remit by Sturgeon herself.






ElPistolero wrote:
A101 wrote:
Its all political each have there own agenda on what has transpired especially in context of a GE, if you care to look at post #129 I questioned the timing of the release of the report so no I’m not grasping at straws

If it’s all political theatre, and the outcome was known all along, what was the point of bringing it up here?


Really…..the outcome was known then why all the obfuscation from the SNP?

I notice that you continue question why it brought up, is there a reason why it should not be discussed when it has potential implications for the outcome of the GE and the SNP push for IndyRef2 and having such a dominate media presence

ElPistolero wrote:
A101 wrote:
Also as I pointed out earlier I have read many articles across the media, this I believe puts the report into perspective
It does no such thing. Instead, the report deals with a possible breach of the Ministerial Code by Nicola Sturgeon on the question of whether she ‘failed to feed back’ the terms of her various meetings with Alex Salmond and others between March and July 2018. Mr Hamilton’s 61-page report concludes that she is not guilty on that ‘failure to feed back’ point. On the more significant issue of her misleading Parliament the verdict of the Holyrood Inquiry report, which has still not been published, will be determinative.

Its the perception that counts in a GE

The Scot Tories didn’t help by going for an unwinnable (or losing a winnable) confidence vote that effectively put her on a pedestal and gave her a stick to beat them with.
The only takeaway for your average Scot voter is: Sturgeon was accused of something, found not to have breached the ministerial code, and retains the confidence of the majority of their elected representatives.
In the “perception game”, some silly political theatre and overreach has turned impending doom into likely election victory.


I don’t think it was actually intended to either win or lose the confidence vote, from my point of view it seems like it was a tactic to keep the issue at the front of people’s mind, there is always going to be that seed of doubt that could be created by the two reports coming out.

There was no impending doom for Sturgeon even if the findings in the Hamilton report found against her its entirely up to her if she should resign or not.

The Scottish GE is there for Sturgeon to lose the unlosable election, for the opposition parties its about reducing her from forming a majority government and in the case of IndyRef2 if she does not win a clear majority, she loses political points to push UKGov for another referenda.

ElPistolero wrote:
A101 wrote:
At the end of the day Hamilton is using his personal opinion under the remit which Sturgeon laid down, the Parliamentary committee is looking at whether Sturgeon mislead Parliament which the Hamilton reports confirms, she has as she has failed to tell Parliament about the earlier meeting. one has to look at the remit on both to get to the conclusions and both are correct, How Sturgeon chooses to spin it is about fighting for her survival of her political life

One important fact within the Hamilton report is steering clear on whether the code needs tightening up as part of his remit;

18.3. The remit also invited me to consider “whether the Ministerial Code might need revision to reflect the terms of the Procedure and the strict limitations itplaces on the involvement of the First Minister in cases which fall to be considered under the Procedure.” In view of the urgency of addressing the other issues relating to alleged breaches of the Ministerial Code which are referred to in the remit I decided to defer consideration of this. It would also in my opinion be appropriate that the other independent adviser also take part in this process. It would also seem sensible to await decisions on what changes if any are to be made to the Procedure. It might also be appropriate to consider the matters relating to special advisers referred to in Chapter 16 in this context.


Again, that’s the process. If it’s so broken, why was it brought up as an issue here?


Process? it was part of the remit, everything else was formed by an opinion within the report, Not hard to give an opinion if he believe that they may need tidying up in the longer term







ElPistolero wrote:
Portraying Sturgeon, elected Scottish First Minister, as the UK (or was it English) man’s dog. We read a lot about anti-English sentiment in Scotland. Is that how the English view Scots? As their dogs?

- Portraying a senior elected female leader as a man’s dog .... interesting optics. Bizarrely misogynistic and backward in this day and age. Which pro-Brexit site did you pull it from?


LOL;
Just stumbled on it by accident when searching for something else, it was a reply on someone’s twitter account can’t remember whose, I just thought it was funny in its context of Scottish independence as it was meant to be taken, after all Sturgeon is currently the main public face for independence

But if that’s you take on it, so be it.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: flyguy89 and 32 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos