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A101
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Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Sun Jan 03, 2021 8:50 pm

Boris Johnson has thrown his support for a Scottish referenda in 2055.

I'm happy for one to take place in about 5-6 years once things have settled down and relations with the EU become more accepted. that goes for NI as well


https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/bo ... r-BB1cqZ2Q
 
bennett123
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Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Sun Jan 03, 2021 9:03 pm

Not sure when a generation became 40+ years.
 
petertenthije
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Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Sun Jan 03, 2021 9:06 pm

That’s Boris. Bravely postponing making tough decisions till he is well into retirement.

Why was Brexit not a “once in a generation” referendum to be done around 2050?
 
A101
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Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Sun Jan 03, 2021 9:09 pm

bennett123 wrote:
Not sure when a generation became 40+ years.



Agree, different source argue its between 25-30 years, which if used would put it at the earliest of 2039
 
A101
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Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Sun Jan 03, 2021 9:17 pm

petertenthije wrote:
That’s Boris. Bravely postponing making tough decisions till he is well into retirement.

Why was Brexit not a “once in a generation” referendum to be done around 2050?






We are not talking about Brexit, we are talking about Scotland.

All Brexit discussion to the relevant Brexit thread please
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Sun Jan 03, 2021 9:43 pm

Boris, the second coming of Ethelred the Unready. Any Vikings on the horizon.
 
A101
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Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Sun Jan 03, 2021 9:57 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Boris, the second coming of Ethelred the Unready. Any Vikings on the horizon.


You expecting the Danes to invade GB, that would then mean the EU would have to support, I guess the French would happily support such an initiative.
 
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T18
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Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Sun Jan 03, 2021 10:18 pm

Question for the Scots, if independent would they seek to join the EU?
 
A101
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Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Sun Jan 03, 2021 10:34 pm

T18 wrote:
Question for the Scots, if independent would they seek to join the EU?



Well Sturgeon is saying they will, but will the Scottish get a say and will they wait to see under what terms for fishing, Euro etc
 
Sokes
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Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:45 am

A101 wrote:
You expecting the Danes to invade GB, that would then mean the EU would have to support, I guess the French would happily support such an initiative.

Does Spain have a proper Navy by now?
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Mon Jan 04, 2021 2:25 am

Maybe BoJo thinks the RN will no longer have submarines in 2055.
 
Olddog
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Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:12 am

Why France would like to invade England? For your wonderful climate?
Only if you finally find theses unicorns......
 
tommy1808
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Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:37 am

T18 wrote:
Question for the Scots, if independent would they seek to join the EU?


I think the remaining UK having the power to veto Scotland´s EU Membership was the main reason the last referendum failed.

best regards
Thomas
 
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moo
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Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:55 am

tommy1808 wrote:
T18 wrote:
Question for the Scots, if independent would they seek to join the EU?


I think the remaining UK having the power to veto Scotland´s EU Membership was the main reason the last referendum failed.

best regards
Thomas


I think it was the lack of coherent financial plans that had the most impact - firstly insisting that Scotland would enter the EU, but not take the Euro (highly unlikely to be allowed to do that by the EU, and there was no appetite in Scotland to join the Euro), secondly insisting that Scotland would maintain a monetary union with the rest of the UK in the Pound Sterling, including having a say in monetary policy (despite all main UK party leaders of the time saying this wouldnt happen, Scotland could use the Pound Sterling but would have no say in monetary policy with the Bank of England or UK Treasury), and thirdly basing most of an independent Scotlands tax revenue on North Sea oil and gas production (which would have proved disastrous, given the utter collapse of that industry just a mere year later, with industry gross revenues going from billions to just a few tens of millions overnight, and actually becoming a taxpayer burden in some situations...)

Thats of course ignoring the fact that the SNP tried to insist initially that Scotland would not need to apply to join the EU, but would come under “successor state” circumstances and continue as a member - a stance that the EU soundly shot down.

An independent Scotlands EU membership bid also at the time had more to worry about from Spain than the UK, as Spain did not want any opening which smoothed passage for a Catalonian independence bid... This has now subsided with subsequent events between Spain and Catalonia, of course.
 
94717
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Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:28 am

EU did not have any problem to accept ex Yugoslavia application on basis that they ones belonged to Yugoslavia like Slovenia.

An independent state in Europe will always be welcome with their application. Then for each example like Poland, Hungary, Romania that run to comply then after being part of EU start to be flexible with the rules it will be harder and harder for applications to be approved.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:49 am

Who is ready to bet that by saying that he just gave some more points to the SNP ?

I think BoJo should ignore Scotland completely, as if it didn't exist, it couldn't be more damaging that what he's doing now.
 
A101
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Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:29 pm

Olddog wrote:
Why France would like to invade England? For your wonderful climate?
Only if you finally find theses unicorns......




Most likely for the same reason why Napoleon wanted to invade Britain
 
Olddog
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Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:40 pm

Someday you will realize that we are in the 21 century and not 1800 ....
 
94717
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Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Mon Jan 04, 2021 2:28 pm

Scottish independence biggest asset last few years seems to be ERG and Mr Johnsson. Every visit or every time he opens his mouth it is a disaster.

Even Tory party in Scotland was against Brexit but pro union, but England based politicians lied to the Scottish people a few years ago and now it comes back to them.
 
A101
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Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Mon Jan 04, 2021 8:26 pm

Olddog wrote:
Someday you will realize that we are in the 21 century and not 1800 ....



Oh I know what century we live in, but it’s always a pro-remain whom brings up the past like “Ethelred the Unready” for a dig on what’s happening now.

History can teach us a lot of things, but that dosn’t mean history is repeating itself.
 
94717
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Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Tue Jan 05, 2021 7:51 am

Personally I consider the divorce Czech and Slovakia as best example. One side wants to leave wish them good luck.

Both are EU members today by the way.
 
737307
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Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Tue Jan 05, 2021 6:39 pm

Boris is the worst British politician ever. He seems to want to break-up everything.
 
A101
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Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:31 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Boris is the worst British politician ever. He seems to want to break-up everything.



The thing is Sturgeon is playing the dislike of Johnson card to her advantage. But the one thing most Scottish electorate should remember independence is forever the Johnson government is not. It’s one thing to vote vote leave for independence but vote to leave because you don’t like the current Government if that is your sole motavation

David Cameron 2014 Scottish referenda
If you don't like me – I won't be here forever. If you don't like this government – it won't last forever. But if you leave the UK – that will be forever," he said.

 
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Dutchy
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Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:38 am

With his remarks, Johnson opened Pandora's box. A new Scottish referendum is on the table, timeline is secondary.

The Conservatives stand to lose, current polls suggest. Labor hasn't got a majority, so perhaps the SNP could be kingmaker, helping Labor to get its majority. In return, they could get a referendum. Or get the right to decide on a referendum in Edenborough, instead of Westminster.

As predicted, one of the perks of Brexit.
 
A101
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Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:50 am

Dutchy wrote:

With his remarks, Johnson opened Pandora's box. A new Scottish referendum is on the table, timeline is secondary.

The Conservatives stand to lose, current polls suggest. Labor hasn't got a majority, so perhaps the SNP could be kingmaker, helping Labor to get its majority. In return, they could get a referendum. Or get the right to decide on a referendum in Edenborough, instead of Westminster.

.



Tories wont go to a GE until 2024 when they have too, Johnson won’t be PM then I can tell you that much.

I give BJ 12 more months in the PM’s seat then he will pass the baton on to give the next Tori’s PM a chance to settle and make his/her own until the next GE

So can’t see a indyref2 happen till 2025 at the earliest, and I will wager that it will be close again in favour of remain

Dutchy wrote:
As predicted, one of the perks of Brexit.


How is it a perk of Brexit?

In or out the SNP were always going to try again.
 
bennett123
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Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:00 am

Amazing that anyone thinks that BJ supports a second referendum.

Simply kicked into the long grass.

Well into the long grass.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:52 am

bennett123 wrote:
Amazing that anyone thinks that BJ supports a second referendum.

Simply kicked into the long grass.

Well into the long grass.


he probably doesn't care one way or the other. It is on the table again because of Brexit, this is his way, indeed, to kick the ball a very long way down the road, way past his own premiership.
 
kaitak
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Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Sat Jan 09, 2021 6:26 pm

Going back to when Cameron announced the referendum on EU membership, did anyone (and I include the Scottish executive/leadership in this) say "hang one there a wee sec, laddie; what happens if the Sassanachs say aye and we say nae?".

OK, probably nothing if they said it like that, but I cannot recall anyone considering the possibility that different parts of the UK might vote differently? Sure, the UK was in the EU as a single unit, but surely, this question might have been raised - and its consequences as well? We know, given the problems relating to the GFA and Northern Ireland, that it was not really considered - such was the rush to get out. Maybe it was hubris and they expected it to be passed, but given the very strong support among the media for Brexit and the fact that the EU was blamed for pretty much everything, that had to be acknowledged as a possibility.

You now have a situation whereby the government in London - led, of course, by an arch Brexiteer from Day One of the campaign - pushed Brexit without the slightest consideration for its effect on the regions and the union. And now, all of a sudden, it's a case of "if this happens, it'll destroy the UK". Maybe the 2014/15 was the time to think about that. They took action which was shortsighted and then, forced through action which was manifestly against both the vote and the interests of specific regions. And they're surprised when these regions want out. NI has a ticket out, because it now has the option of exporting via Dublin rather than the UK - despite the best efforts of the DUP to torpedo this - but the Scots are stuck. It's really not an option to tell the Scots they can't have a referendum until 2055; it's a slap in the face, which will only serve to embolden opinion in favour of independence.

If London thought Brexit was painful, I suspect this will be considerably moreso.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:21 pm

Almost nobody talked about NI despite the obvious problems with it, so Scotland...
 
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zkojq
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Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:50 pm

This shows how fundamentally democratic the EU is compared to the UK. If an EU member wishes to leave they can do so at will by invoking Article 50. They don't have to get permission from other members.

Meanwhile a member of the UK cannot even have a referendum about leaving - let alone actually doing so - without Westminster's blessing.

Every day it becomes more clear that Westminister views Scotland as property, not as equal.

Aesma wrote:
Who is ready to bet that by saying that he just gave some more points to the SNP ?

I think BoJo should ignore Scotland completely, as if it didn't exist, it couldn't be more damaging that what he's doing now.


Boris Johnson is the greatest asset the independence movement could ever hope for. Every day the incompetence of him and his fellow Etonian morons in Westminister make it clear that Scotland can do better governing itself. The current pandemic has highlighted how much more proactive Nicola Sturgeon and the Holyrood government is than that of Westminister. Since the second wave every major lockdown decision in Westminister happened two weeks earlier in Scotland before case numbers ballooned further.

Boris won't last forever but the chances of him being replaced by someone competent, rather than another Etonian fool, aren't great.
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:07 am

zkojq wrote:
This shows how fundamentally democratic the EU is compared to the UK. If an EU member wishes to leave they can do so at will by invoking Article 50.

The EU is not a country. Nice try.
If you want to draw comparisons, than let's have a look at post-fascist Spain treats Catalonia with tacit support of the EU.
 
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zkojq
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Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:32 am

The further that IndyRef2 is kicked down the road, the more resounding the support for Independence will be. Every day that Westminster is run by Etonian morons who are barely organised enough to tie their own shoelaces is a day that Independence gains support.

IMO as Boris pisses away public support, the chance of him allowing a referendum on Scottish Independence increases. With Scotland out of the Union, the Tories will have a solid majority for at least 25 years.

Scottish fishermen were strong supporters of the conservatives thanks to being conned into believing that Brexit would somehow make them rich. As reality bites - Brexit is currently costing Scotland's fishing fleet a million quid a day - I can certainly see a lot of these folks turning towards the SNP. Fishing was supposed to be the crown jewel of Brexit Benifits.

Tory Fisheries Minister did not read Brexit deal which costs Scottish fleet £1 million a day in losses
The UK Fisheries Minister was too busy with Christmas to focus on reading the Brexit fishing deal with the EU.

Fishing minister Victoria Prentis, the under-secretary of State for Farming and Fishing, admitted she did not read the fisheries deal when it was published on Christmas Eve because she was “very busy organising the local Nativity trail”.

Giving evidence to a Lords committee, the minister admitted “things are tricky at the moment” on exports but said her team is “working hard” to resolve issues as they arose.


https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/poli ... d-23313814

Scottish fishermen threaten to dump rotten shellfish outside British parliament

LONDON (Reuters) - Scottish fishermen have threatened to dump rotten shellfish outside the British parliament after their deliveries to the European Union were blocked by post-Brexit red tape.

The owners of two fishing companies said the introduction of health certificates, customs declarations and checks since Britain left the EU’s single market at the start of this year had hit their delivery systems.

In a video posted on Twitter, Jamie McMillan of Lochfyne Seafarms warned British Prime Minister Boris Johnson that “if Scottish exporters can’t get their product to market next week, we will be at the gates of (the Palace of) Westminster and we’ll be dumping our shellfish on your doorstep, rotten.”

“We are fighting for survival here,” he said. “Get it sorted and get it sorted now.”

A second owner, Santiago Buesa of SB Fish, said: “I have plenty to dump as we can’t get it sold because our markets have been shut down due to Brexit.”


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-brit ... reddit.com

https://www.itv.com/news/border/2021-01 ... -by-brexit


Aesma wrote:
I think BoJo should ignore Scotland completely, as if it didn't exist


Westminster in a nutshell.
 
94717
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Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:27 am

Scottish / UK fishermen is currently landing their fish in Denmark to avoid export problems;

---------------------------

Wither also explained on Twitter that if boats fish in UK waters, but land in Denmark, processors here are cut out of trade. He also pointed out that fish on boats that dock in Denmark is traded within single market, which is advantageous as it avoids a lot of bureaucracy.

Therefore, if Scottish fishing boats were to land their catch in Denmark more frequently, it would have a number of knock-on-effects. One of those would be the impact on processors, which Withers alluded to.

https://trans.info/en/brexit-customs-is ... ark-217458
 
A101
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Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Sun Feb 07, 2021 9:43 pm

Interesting the Scottish Independence movement went to court about a 2nd referenda, I guess Nicola has her work cut out for her if she wants another referenda

Scotland’s top civil court has dismissed a case which sought a ruling that the Scottish parliament could hold an independence referendum without permission from London, saying it was premature and hypothetical.


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-brit ... SKBN2A51BH
 
Arion640
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Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Mon Feb 08, 2021 1:21 am

A101 wrote:
Interesting the Scottish Independence movement went to court about a 2nd referenda, I guess Nicola has her work cut out for her if she wants another referenda

Scotland’s top civil court has dismissed a case which sought a ruling that the Scottish parliament could hold an independence referendum without permission from London, saying it was premature and hypothetical.


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-brit ... SKBN2A51BH


Create a federal UK and this all goes away. The tories can choose to keep holding on to the countries powers at Westminster or have no country at all.
 
flyguy89
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Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Mon Feb 08, 2021 2:04 am

zkojq wrote:
Meanwhile a member of the UK cannot even have a referendum about leaving - let alone actually doing so - without Westminster's blessing.

Except they did...

I’ll be curious to see though, if the UK’s vaccination strategy is indeed successful and the EU vaccination effort continues to drag, if that will at all impact independence sentiment in Scotland.
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Mon Feb 08, 2021 3:11 am

Isn't the purpose of a head of state to preserve the union of their nation?
 
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c933103
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Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Mon Feb 08, 2021 3:20 am

TWA772LR wrote:
Isn't the purpose of a head of state to preserve the union of their nation?

I would say it is more important to process, cater and coordinate the difference between different parts of the nation's society, and when some parts are not satisfied with their status as part of the country and coordination on the matter failed to achieve positive result, alternative path could become a better option
 
A101
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Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Mon Feb 08, 2021 5:10 am

Arion640 wrote:
A101 wrote:
Interesting the Scottish Independence movement went to court about a 2nd referenda, I guess Nicola has her work cut out for her if she wants another referenda

Scotland’s top civil court has dismissed a case which sought a ruling that the Scottish parliament could hold an independence referendum without permission from London, saying it was premature and hypothetical.


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-brit ... SKBN2A51BH


Create a federal UK and this all goes away. The tories can choose to keep holding on to the countries powers at Westminster or have no country at all.



Don’t think that could happen at present as I imagine that would mean a very dramatic constitutional change in the way the UK operates and each of the four nations would have to agree. I also think it would be grounds for another referenda on that subject alone

I haven’t really looked into what it would take to change but I do like the idea of a specific codified constitution

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/constitution-unit ... es/162.pdf
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:12 am

A101 wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
A101 wrote:
Interesting the Scottish Independence movement went to court about a 2nd referenda, I guess Nicola has her work cut out for her if she wants another referenda



https://www.reuters.com/article/us-brit ... SKBN2A51BH


Create a federal UK and this all goes away. The tories can choose to keep holding on to the countries powers at Westminster or have no country at all.



Don’t think that could happen at present as I imagine that would mean a very dramatic constitutional change in the way the UK operates and each of the four nations would have to agree. I also think it would be grounds for another referenda on that subject alone

I haven’t really looked into what it would take to change but I do like the idea of a specific codified constitution

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/constitution-unit ... es/162.pdf


3 of the 4 constitute parts of the UK already operate there own assemblies/parliaments, all that remains is to give England it's own parliament.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Mon Feb 08, 2021 8:10 am

Arion640 wrote:
A101 wrote:
Interesting the Scottish Independence movement went to court about a 2nd referenda, I guess Nicola has her work cut out for her if she wants another referenda

Scotland’s top civil court has dismissed a case which sought a ruling that the Scottish parliament could hold an independence referendum without permission from London, saying it was premature and hypothetical.


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-brit ... SKBN2A51BH


Create a federal UK and this all goes away. The tories can choose to keep holding on to the countries powers at Westminster or have no country at all.


Don't think the SNP would back such a solution. I thought many things were already decided on the Scottish level, what would actually be added in practical terms of freedoms to decide on the Scottish level? SNP would like to rejoin the EU for example.
 
A101
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Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Mon Feb 08, 2021 8:13 am

Kiwirob wrote:
A101 wrote:
Arion640 wrote:

Create a federal UK and this all goes away. The tories can choose to keep holding on to the countries powers at Westminster or have no country at all.



Don’t think that could happen at present as I imagine that would mean a very dramatic constitutional change in the way the UK operates and each of the four nations would have to agree. I also think it would be grounds for another referenda on that subject alone

I haven’t really looked into what it would take to change but I do like the idea of a specific codified constitution

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/constitution-unit ... es/162.pdf


3 of the 4 constitute parts of the UK already operate there own assemblies/parliaments, all that remains is to give England it's own parliament.


Yes but we in the UK have a Unitary government which at the present time Westminster can take away the devolved powers of the devolved parliaments, unlike say in Australia which is a federation under the constitution there are reserved powers of the state in which the Federal government in theory has no say.

Federal government across the world have varying difference in how they operate, but I would imagine if the UK ever did go into being a federation it would either be the Canadian or Australian models under the Federal monarchy

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/devolution- ... rn-ireland

Parliament remains sovereign, and retains the power to amend the devolution Acts or to legislate on anything that has been devolved. That said, the government has made clear it will not normally legislate on a devolved matter without the consent of the devolved legislature, which requires a Legislative Consent Motion.



https://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/about ... ate-a.aspx
The Roles and Responsibilities of Federal, State and Local Governments

The Federal Government
The Federal or Commonwealth Government is responsible for the conduct of national affairs. Its areas of responsibility are stated in the Australian Constitution and include defence and foreign affairs; trade, commerce and currency; immigration; postal services, telecommunications and broadcasting; air travel; most social services and pensions. The Federal Government is also involved, mainly through funding, in many things largely carried out by the States, such as health, education, environmental issues, industrial relations, etc.

State or Territory Government
Under the Australian Constitution, the States are responsible for everything not listed as a Federal responsibility. However, sometimes both levels are involved. Major State responsibilities include schools, hospitals, conservation and environment, roads, railways and public transport, public works, agriculture and fishing, industrial relations, community services, sport and recreation, consumer affairs, police, prisons and emergency services. Each state has its own constitution setting out its system of government.

Local Government
Local Government areas vary greatly in size and character. The Sydney area is divided into about 35 cities, municipalities or shires, each with its own local council. The bigger country centres such as Bathurst or Albury have city or municipal councils. Large but less populated country areas, with a number of small towns and large rural areas, are usually shires with a Shire Council based in one of the larger towns. The power of local governments is controlled by Acts of State Parliament such as the Local Government Acts. Local Councils are concerned with matters close to our homes, such as building regulations and development, public health, local roads and footpaths, parks and playing fields, libraries, local environmental issues, waste disposal, and many community services.

 
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Aesma
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Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Mon Feb 08, 2021 9:37 am

TWA772LR wrote:
Isn't the purpose of a head of state to preserve the union of their nation?


Head of government in this case but I know what you mean. Imagine if after leaving, Scotland also ditches the Queen ?

Being French there are plenty of parts of the country that have an independence movement. Brittany for example where my father was born. Corsica where they have now some power on the island. Martinique, Guadeloupe, Réunion, Polynesia, Guyane... Not Mayotte AFAIK, there it's the Comoros who want to take over, but the locals aren't interested. And finally New Caledonia where there has been violence, a "peace process", and a political process. France promised regular referendums, and they have happened. I really hope all these territories stay French, and I have not problem spending money there to make it happen. Corsica is a bit of a special case as it's a hotbed of corruption, crime and the mafia. In a way independence might hurt "business" there...

In fact all these places have a corruption and clientelism problem, so their independence would probably go very badly, think Haiti. France might end up having to spend more money there than in the current situation, something that would be unacceptable.

To go back to Scotland, I think it's too late to keep it, but Boris should at least try. For example by giving in on the referendum, and actually doing something to convince people to vote to stay in.
 
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par13del
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Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Tue Feb 09, 2021 12:30 pm

Aesma wrote:
To go back to Scotland, I think it's too late to keep it, but Boris should at least try. For example by giving in on the referendum, and actually doing something to convince people to vote to stay in.

Why, what we are hearing now is that the people of Scotland want to be in the EU, why should the UK try to prevent the people's wishes?
Look at Brexit, the people voted for Brexit and confirmed it by electing a Brexit government, the unholy mess that is going on now is because folks fought for years to deny the people what they wanted. Unless you think that the SNP unlike the Brexiters have not told any lies in their independence campaign?
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 2410
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Tue Feb 09, 2021 2:47 pm

par13del wrote:
Why, what we are hearing now is that the people of Scotland want to be in the EU, why should the UK try to prevent the people's wishes?
Look at Brexit, the people voted for Brexit and confirmed it by electing a Brexit government, the unholy mess that is going on now is because folks fought for years to deny the people what they wanted. Unless you think that the SNP unlike the Brexiters have not told any lies in their independence campaign?


The SNP seem to have their own view on how to run an independence campaign:

“IF the Yes movement has a brain, then it’s called Andrew Wilson – the man who’s crafted the SNP’s vision of independence.
...

When it comes to winning independence, “the biggest lesson is to learn how not to do it from Brexit – don’t go low, don’t go populist, as even if you were to win on such a prospectus the aftermath would be really bad”. Wilson is concerned about any hint of populism in the Yes movement. “It would worry me as A, I don’t think it would win, and B, if it did win it would be more like what we’re experiencing with Brexit.

That’s why he is bitterly opposed to false promises, ideas like Modern Monetary Theory with its plans to print money, and claims that independence is a panacea”
...
The strategy has to be “to tell the truth and win the argument … paint a truthful picture of how we can earn the right to a better society by hard work over time”. Independence, he acknowledges, “isn’t going to be delivered overnight”.

“The tone has to be right, we need to be seen by the rest of the world and the UK as the opposite of those prosecuting the case for Brexit”

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/188 ... ew-wilson/
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 14861
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Tue Feb 09, 2021 6:30 pm

par13del wrote:
Aesma wrote:
To go back to Scotland, I think it's too late to keep it, but Boris should at least try. For example by giving in on the referendum, and actually doing something to convince people to vote to stay in.

Why, what we are hearing now is that the people of Scotland want to be in the EU, why should the UK try to prevent the people's wishes?
Look at Brexit, the people voted for Brexit and confirmed it by electing a Brexit government, the unholy mess that is going on now is because folks fought for years to deny the people what they wanted. Unless you think that the SNP unlike the Brexiters have not told any lies in their independence campaign?


There has already been a campaign and a referendum in 2014. So the idea, its avantages, its drawbacks, have already been debated at length, plans are being made, etc. In the meantime the UK government had ample opportunity to do its utmost to cement Scotland's place into the UK. For example by doing everything so that Brexit had the less impact possible on Scotland. Of course it did nothing of the sort.
 
A101
Topic Author
Posts: 2589
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:54 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
par13del wrote:
Why, what we are hearing now is that the people of Scotland want to be in the EU, why should the UK try to prevent the people's wishes?
Look at Brexit, the people voted for Brexit and confirmed it by electing a Brexit government, the unholy mess that is going on now is because folks fought for years to deny the people what they wanted. Unless you think that the SNP unlike the Brexiters have not told any lies in their independence campaign?

The SNP seem to have their own view on how to run an independence campaign:

“IF the Yes movement has a brain, then it’s called Andrew Wilson – the man who’s crafted the SNP’s vision of independence.
...

When it comes to winning independence, “the biggest lesson is to learn how not to do it from Brexit – don’t go low, don’t go populist, as even if you were to win on such a prospectus the aftermath would be really bad”. Wilson is concerned about any hint of populism in the Yes movement. “It would worry me as A, I don’t think it would win, and B, if it did win it would be more like what we’re experiencing with Brexit.

That’s why he is bitterly opposed to false promises, ideas like Modern Monetary Theory with its plans to print money, and claims that independence is a panacea”
...
The strategy has to be “to tell the truth and win the argument … paint a truthful picture of how we can earn the right to a better society by hard work over time”. Independence, he acknowledges, “isn’t going to be delivered overnight”.

“The tone has to be right, we need to be seen by the rest of the world and the UK as the opposite of those prosecuting the case for Brexit”

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/188 ... ew-wilson/





Agree two sides to every story though. But I will state up front I do not appose a 2nd referenda or even a border poll in NI for that matter and if they choose to leave than so be it it should be without recriminations

The main arguments have been fought over in 2014 Scottish Referenda, those arguments wont fundamentally change. If the current UKGov really wants to put a dampener on the whole the independence bid then they can look no further than Canada and the Clarity Act, unlike Brexit and the exist from the EU there is no framework in place to guide each side.

There are a couple of options before UKGov that could work in its favour to keep the status quo they could start negotiations before a 2nd referenda and which would give the Scottish a general outline of would happen if they voted to leave. Which could be two faceted; one where they became truly independent and perhaps continue to trade freely with there biggest export market rUK or on what that happens if they choose to re-join the EU as being a member of the EU any agreement would be null and void soon as they become members.

Under the UK constitution and the powers invested within Westminster the UKGov holds the key on how a 2nd referenda is to take place. The Canadian Clarity Act and the rulings within Canadian Supreme Court which concluded that Quebec cannot secede unilaterally under Canadian or international law. If the SNP wants its 2nd referenda its going to be under Westminster direction and control on how and when that happens.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 12715
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Wed Feb 10, 2021 9:17 am

A101 wrote:
The main arguments have been fought over in 2014 Scottish Referenda, those arguments won't fundamentally change.


Those arguments and circumstances have changed because of the 2016 Brexit referendum. That is undeniable.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 2410
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Wed Feb 10, 2021 2:44 pm

A101 wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
par13del wrote:
Why, what we are hearing now is that the people of Scotland want to be in the EU, why should the UK try to prevent the people's wishes?
Look at Brexit, the people voted for Brexit and confirmed it by electing a Brexit government, the unholy mess that is going on now is because folks fought for years to deny the people what they wanted. Unless you think that the SNP unlike the Brexiters have not told any lies in their independence campaign?

The SNP seem to have their own view on how to run an independence campaign:

“IF the Yes movement has a brain, then it’s called Andrew Wilson – the man who’s crafted the SNP’s vision of independence.
...

When it comes to winning independence, “the biggest lesson is to learn how not to do it from Brexit – don’t go low, don’t go populist, as even if you were to win on such a prospectus the aftermath would be really bad”. Wilson is concerned about any hint of populism in the Yes movement. “It would worry me as A, I don’t think it would win, and B, if it did win it would be more like what we’re experiencing with Brexit.

That’s why he is bitterly opposed to false promises, ideas like Modern Monetary Theory with its plans to print money, and claims that independence is a panacea”
...
The strategy has to be “to tell the truth and win the argument … paint a truthful picture of how we can earn the right to a better society by hard work over time”. Independence, he acknowledges, “isn’t going to be delivered overnight”.

“The tone has to be right, we need to be seen by the rest of the world and the UK as the opposite of those prosecuting the case for Brexit”

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/188 ... ew-wilson/





Agree two sides to every story though. But I will state up front I do not appose a 2nd referenda or even a border poll in NI for that matter and if they choose to leave than so be it it should be without recriminations

The main arguments have been fought over in 2014 Scottish Referenda, those arguments wont fundamentally change. If the current UKGov really wants to put a dampener on the whole the independence bid then they can look no further than Canada and the Clarity Act, unlike Brexit and the exist from the EU there is no framework in place to guide each side.

There are a couple of options before UKGov that could work in its favour to keep the status quo they could start negotiations before a 2nd referenda and which would give the Scottish a general outline of would happen if they voted to leave. Which could be two faceted; one where they became truly independent and perhaps continue to trade freely with there biggest export market rUK or on what that happens if they choose to re-join the EU as being a member of the EU any agreement would be null and void soon as they become members.

Under the UK constitution and the powers invested within Westminster the UKGov holds the key on how a 2nd referenda is to take place. The Canadian Clarity Act and the rulings within Canadian Supreme Court which concluded that Quebec cannot secede unilaterally under Canadian or international law. If the SNP wants its 2nd referenda its going to be under Westminster direction and control on how and when that happens.


Not sure what your point is. Canada and the UK have different state structures. How is a ruling on provincial powers in a federal state relevant to a unitary state?

In any event, I didn’t know Canadian law applied in the UK. Certainly news to me.

Anyway, Brexit sets all kinds of precedents for leaving unions - both good and bad for the Scots - that aren’t going to go away. Tying the process up and trying to undermine it with potentially hypocritical approaches isn’t a winning proposition in the medium-to/long term. Something about making ones bed.
 
A101
Topic Author
Posts: 2589
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Boris Johnson supports Scottish indeRef#2

Wed Feb 10, 2021 3:29 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
A101 wrote:
Agree two sides to every story though. But I will state up front I do not appose a 2nd referenda or even a border poll in NI for that matter and if they choose to leave than so be it it should be without recriminations

The main arguments have been fought over in 2014 Scottish Referenda, those arguments wont fundamentally change. If the current UKGov really wants to put a dampener on the whole the independence bid then they can look no further than Canada and the Clarity Act, unlike Brexit and the exist from the EU there is no framework in place to guide each side.

There are a couple of options before UKGov that could work in its favour to keep the status quo they could start negotiations before a 2nd referenda and which would give the Scottish a general outline of would happen if they voted to leave. Which could be two faceted; one where they became truly independent and perhaps continue to trade freely with there biggest export market rUK or on what that happens if they choose to re-join the EU as being a member of the EU any agreement would be null and void soon as they become members.

Under the UK constitution and the powers invested within Westminster the UKGov holds the key on how a 2nd referenda is to take place. The Canadian Clarity Act and the rulings within Canadian Supreme Court which concluded that Quebec cannot secede unilaterally under Canadian or international law. If the SNP wants its 2nd referenda its going to be under Westminster direction and control on how and when that happens.

Not sure what your point is. Canada and the UK have different state structures. How is a ruling on provincial powers in a federal state relevant to a unitary state?


We are talking about constitutional power of the Canadian government and how it interacts with provincial powers much like Westminster and devolved parliaments

ElPistolero wrote:
In any event, I didn’t know Canadian law applied in the UK. Certainly news to me.


It’s not unusual for commonwealth countries to cite precedents in foreign Law on domestic Judgments at the high/Supreme courts level.

ElPistolero wrote:
Anyway, Brexit sets all kinds of precedents for leaving unions - both good and bad for the Scots - that aren’t going to go away. Tying the process up and trying to undermine it with potentially hypocritical approaches isn’t a winning proposition in the medium-to/long term. Something about making ones bed.


Actually no it doesn’t. Brexit wasn’t about secession or breaking away from a nation state, the TEU had a procedure to use if a member wanted to leave the block.

UK constitution does not have an equivalent, process and it is enshrined in UK law that matter about the union (UK) are reserved matters for Westminster. As held by the Canadian Supreme Court held that concluding that Quebec cannot secede unilaterally under Canadian or international law

Not that I would pre-judge a decision, but if it were to follow precedent then Canada is the one to watch

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