Aaron747 wrote:

luckyone wrote:

art wrote:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/re ... l-n1253581

Anything wrong with encouraging people to manifest their discontent? In a totalitarian state that would be seen so. What's the position in the US?

The problem is their base and justification of "discontent" was pure poppycock and shown to be horsesqueeze in over SIXTY lawsuits. They shamelessly beat the drum of "fraud," "irregularities," and whatever other talking points that we've been hearing on a loop since election day that has played fast and loose with facts and the truth. The GOP has been playing with populist fire since the Tea Party, and it has finally, unequivocally, exploded on them.

The criminal analysis would be manslaughter. They didn't intend to hurt anybody, but they played a role in people getting hurt and DYING, not to mention the whole potential subversion of democracy thing.

Mike Smerconish had a good take on this earlier today - he noted that even when GOP leaders don’t agree with that rhetoric, they have to entertain it because the crazy Trump base has been fueled by the sheer volume of the Don Jr/OAN/Newsmax/Gateway Pundit feedback loop. Of course there is a business Trump supporter faction, but they are pretty much silent compared to the former.

Nobody really stood up in the party to say ‘hey our constituents are being lied to and its gonna get someone hurt’ till it was too late.

Well, unfortunately that's what happens when you're dealing with child-minded, poorly informed, and stupid people in large numbers. You have to shoot straight with these people from the beginning, because once the bullet is out of the gun you can't control it. These idiots have one good turn of the wheel and they can't be brought back until something concrete and irrevocable happens. It's just.not.in.their.skill.set. Is that everyone who voted for or supported Trump? No. But it's a lot of them. I will likely catch flack for this, but at this point if it bothers you it says more about you than it does me.

art wrote:

Thunderboltdrgn wrote:

More proof how how the Republican party is involved in the riot.

Before the riot there were robocall coming from Republican Attorneys General Association, call that encouraged people to march towards Capitol Hill.

An arm of the Republican Attorneys General Association, a national group representing the top law enforcement officers in their states, sent out robocalls encouraging people to march to the U.S. Capitol the day before the building was stormed by a pro-Trump mob.

The calls, which did not advocate violence or suggest the building should be breached, was sent out by the Rule of Law Defense Fund, a fundraising arm of the Republican Attorneys General Association. The groups share funding, staff and office space in Washington, D.C.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/re ... l-n1253581

Anything wrong with encouraging people to manifest their discontent? In a totalitarian state that would be seen so. What's the position in the US?

Even in the most liberal democracy people can be expected to show good judgement, and be lambasted if they didn't.

It is not like anything unexpected has happened, beyond the terrorists getting into the Capitol essentially unopposed. Violence was expected, anyone involved in inviting people has blood on their hands.

Best regards
Thomas

IMO, references to Weimar are chillingly accurate.

Furthermore, we need to look beyond the invasion force.

This was a highly organised attack.

Also, how did they know that they would meet such little resistance.

In my view, there was a substancial fifth column and probably including people at a senior level who have yet to be identified.

A velvet glove approach .will only encourage them.

bennett123 wrote:

IMO, references to Weimar are chillingly accurate.

Furthermore, we need to look beyond the invasion force.

This was a highly organised attack.

Also, how did they know that they would meet such little resistance.

In my view, there was a substancial fifth column and probably including people at a senior level who have yet to be identified.

A velvet glove approach .will only encourage them.

It does seem extraordinary that the intruders gained entrance so easily.

Well trump has caused a massive upset to the internet in that Godwin’s law has become effectively invalid. We can legitimately make comparisons to Hitler without being even remotely off topic.

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Tugger wrote:

I think the one thing the DC riots prove is the stupidity of people who are followers. The idiot with the lectern, just smiling at the camera, not thinking, he was probably just "having fun", justifying the law breaking as nothing big, just being there, etc. The goofy smile and wave, these people are not thinking.

The terrible thing about that though, is that these mindless followers are used by and hide the much more dangerous actions of others like Trump and the creepy-ass guy in cammo/tactical gear and his full face hidden, with the zip cuffs. This is herd mentality and a wild running herd destroys things and is dangerous and provides a venue for anything intelligent within the herd to do even worse. The smart ones know this and use these people (no, not making any excuses for them).

Tugg

None dumber than the guy wandering around the capitol with his work ID badge prominently displayed. Possibly the bluntest tool in the box! I understand he was identified and dismissed in very short order and has subsequently been arrested.

NIKV69 wrote:

Capital police and or DC off duty police?

Guy with zip ties was USAF
https://nypost.com/2021/01/09/air-force ... SocialFlow

I read the full article in The New Yorker, seems like this guy slowly went off the deep end. Someone he served with said he stopped contacting him becasue he had just become too extreme in his views. And now he's most likely facing arrest and criminal charges.

scbriml wrote:

Tugger wrote:

I think the one thing the DC riots prove is the stupidity of people who are followers. The idiot with the lectern, just smiling at the camera, not thinking, he was probably just "having fun", justifying the law breaking as nothing big, just being there, etc. The goofy smile and wave, these people are not thinking.

The terrible thing about that though, is that these mindless followers are used by and hide the much more dangerous actions of others like Trump and the creepy-ass guy in cammo/tactical gear and his full face hidden, with the zip cuffs. This is herd mentality and a wild running herd destroys things and is dangerous and provides a venue for anything intelligent within the herd to do even worse. The smart ones know this and use these people (no, not making any excuses for them).

Tugg

None dumber than the guy wandering around the capitol with his work ID badge prominently displayed. Possibly the bluntest tool in the box! I understand he was identified and dismissed in very short order and has subsequently been arrested.

That’s what struck me, as well. Yes yes, of course, not *all* trump supporters are this way, but that crowd at the capitol was something else. It’s wasn’t a southern accent thing, not at all. Regardless of where they are from, they all sort of speak in this very childish vernacular and cadence. They seemed all really troubled and unwell.

If it was just this rally of The Walking Dead-looking folks, it would be one thing. But it wasn’t. It was trump and his creepy sons with a crowd that include flat out nazis. The two are inextricable now.

How to move forward and prevent this again moving forward is anyone’s guess.

scbriml wrote:

Tugger wrote:

I think the one thing the DC riots prove is the stupidity of people who are followers. The idiot with the lectern, just smiling at the camera, not thinking, he was probably just "having fun", justifying the law breaking as nothing big, just being there, etc. The goofy smile and wave, these people are not thinking.

The terrible thing about that though, is that these mindless followers are used by and hide the much more dangerous actions of others like Trump and the creepy-ass guy in cammo/tactical gear and his full face hidden, with the zip cuffs. This is herd mentality and a wild running herd destroys things and is dangerous and provides a venue for anything intelligent within the herd to do even worse. The smart ones know this and use these people (no, not making any excuses for them).

Tugg

None dumber than the guy wandering around the capitol with his work ID badge prominently displayed. Possibly the bluntest tool in the box! I understand he was identified and dismissed in very short order and has subsequently been arrested.

We never agree on much but am in total agreement. Well guess he was proud of that badge that he doesn't have anymore.

scbriml wrote:

None dumber than the guy wandering around the capitol with his work ID badge prominently displayed. Possibly the bluntest tool in the box! I understand he was identified and dismissed in very short order and has subsequently been arrested.

This guy is really screwed. His name is eventually going to come out. At that point he will always be known as the idiot who entered the capitol building wearing his company ID. It only goes down hill from there. He's more than likely going to be arrested. Which means he will need an attorney. Good luck paying for one without a job. If there's jail time involved it gets even worse.

That goes for all of these fools. I wonder how many of them could afford to sit any amount of time in prison.

I'm struggling a bit with comparisons with Weimar Germany and the early 1930s
In Weimar, the Nazi party had the SA at its disposal - an organised and large paramilitary group. The crowd on the Capitol were a bunch of chaotic disorganised hillbillies without a plan. Even the (failed) Munich beer hall putsch was better organised

Yes, the people goading the mob knew exactly what they were doing, but to equate Washington with Weimar Germany seems a little overdone to me

davidjohnson6 wrote:

I'm struggling a bit with comparisons with Weimar Germany and the early 1930s
In Weimar, the Nazi party had the SA at its disposal - an organised and large paramilitary group. The crowd on the Capitol were a bunch of chaotic disorganised hillbillies without a plan. Even the (failed) Munich beer hall putsch was better organised

Yes, the people goading the mob knew exactly what they were doing, but to equate Washington with Weimar Germany seems a little overdone to me

I agree that all these comparisons with the rise of Nazi Germany are not adequate.
There are troubling similarities for sure, but the context was quite different. I think it's more a matter of it being the most famous example of how a populist movement gains control of a government and turns it into an autocratic regime.

Off the top of my head, I can think of more adequate comparisons, the best and most recent for me being the rise to power of Chavez in Venezuela, and how he eventually turned the nation into a dystopian and failed tinpot regime. He used the exact same strategy as Trump: he was brash and crass, vociferous, lied through his teeth, created an alternative reality and pitted one social class (the one with a lower education level, on which his particular brand of charisma seemed to work) against another to foster division, anger and loyalty.
When he ruled, he then proceeded to continually attack the democratic institutions of his nation which, unfortunately and unlike the US, were not strong enough to resist, resulting in the failed state we have today, even after his death.

To me, the parallels between Chavez and Trump are the most eerily similar, although history is littered with such examples.

c933103 wrote:

SYRAVGEEK wrote:

FGITD wrote:

I don't much care about traitors getting shot. Same reason I don't shed a tear for the confederacy.

They lost, both the Confederacy and the Trump Supporters.

Labelling half of rhe other country as traitor and use it as a reason to think the other side should not be protected by law, is why America seems to be falling apart.
Such idea exists in both the left and the right.

Stop the “both sides” nonsense. The vast majority of violent extremist groups in the US are right wing and you don’t see liberals walking into churches, clubs, malls and restaurants committing massacres, do you? According to polls 45% of Republicans support the storming of the capital and over 60% would support giving Trump a third term. This essentially amounts to a lifetime appointment. All of those actions, including an attempted coup and overturning a legitimate election is traitorous and you’ll see nothing of the sort from the left.

The left is not spreading dangerous propaganda that led to a violent mob storming the capitol for the first time since 1814. The left isn’t spreading conspiracies that right wing politicians rape children and drink their blood. That lie led to an armed man walking into the pizza restaurant involved in this conspiracy and endangering the lives of innocent patrons. All of this toxicity is on the right. We’re calling them traitors because waving confederate flags in a government building after beating a cop to death IS TRAITOROUS. What we need to do is place the blame right where it belongs and leave the both sides nonsense where it belongs. In the garbage.

CitizenJustin wrote:

c933103 wrote:

SYRAVGEEK wrote:

They lost, both the Confederacy and the Trump Supporters.

Labelling half of rhe other country as traitor and use it as a reason to think the other side should not be protected by law, is why America seems to be falling apart.
Such idea exists in both the left and the right.

Stop the “both sides” nonsense. The vast majority of violent extremist groups in the US are right wing and you don’t see liberals walking into churches, clubs, malls and restaurants committing massacres, do you? According to polls 45% of Republicans support the storming of the capital and over 60% would support giving Trump a third term. This essentially amounts to a lifetime appointment. All of those actions, including an attempted coup and overturning a legitimate election is traitorous and you’ll see nothing of the sort from the left.

The left is not spreading dangerous propaganda that led to a violent mob storming the capitol for the first time since 1814. The left isn’t spreading conspiracies that right wing politicians rape children and drink their blood. That lie led to an armed man walking into the pizza restaurant involved in this conspiracy and endangering the lives of innocent patrons. All of this toxicity is on the right. We’re calling them traitors because waving confederate flags in a government building after beating a cop to death IS TRAITOROUS. What we need to do is place the blame right where it belongs and leave the both sides nonsense where it belongs. In the garbage.

Have you tried to describe the event happened in American cities half year ago using similar tone?

c933103 wrote:

CitizenJustin wrote:

c933103 wrote:

Labelling half of rhe other country as traitor and use it as a reason to think the other side should not be protected by law, is why America seems to be falling apart.
Such idea exists in both the left and the right.

Stop the “both sides” nonsense. The vast majority of violent extremist groups in the US are right wing and you don’t see liberals walking into churches, clubs, malls and restaurants committing massacres, do you? According to polls 45% of Republicans support the storming of the capital and over 60% would support giving Trump a third term. This essentially amounts to a lifetime appointment. All of those actions, including an attempted coup and overturning a legitimate election is traitorous and you’ll see nothing of the sort from the left.

The left is not spreading dangerous propaganda that led to a violent mob storming the capitol for the first time since 1814. The left isn’t spreading conspiracies that right wing politicians rape children and drink their blood. That lie led to an armed man walking into the pizza restaurant involved in this conspiracy and endangering the lives of innocent patrons. All of this toxicity is on the right. We’re calling them traitors because waving confederate flags in a government building after beating a cop to death IS TRAITOROUS. What we need to do is place the blame right where it belongs and leave the both sides nonsense where it belongs. In the garbage.

Have you tried to describe the event happened in American cities half year ago using similar tone?

Yes, and you cant do it.

Theres absolutely no way you can equate a group of people who are more likely to be killed by police, earn lower wages, have a worse equality of life, have worse outcomes in healthcare and education, and in general have been treated like a second class of person by the leaders of the US since the birth if the country, with a violent insurrection stoked and guided by the current President of the United States trying to overthrow a democratic election.

During the BLM protests and riots we saw countless acts of police being brutal, violent and hateful - driving down streets firing tear gas grenades at buildings, storming peaceful protestors and we literally saw unmarked people in paramilitary outfits driving up in unmarked vehicles, grabbing people off the streets and bundling them into the back of said vehicles - luckily these people were just held without charge for a period of time and released.

Yes, there was violence and looting on the side of the BLM protesters (and we really did see proven Trump supporters taking part in that violence and looting, plenty of video and photo evidence of that at the time - compared to the unsubstantiated claims of “its all antifa!” From the right during this past weeks events...) but that was *vastly* outweighed by the rioting and violence that the police of the United States carried out at the same time. And again, that was stoked and guided by President Trumps comments - theres a common theme going on.

Anyone who tries to make the equivalence is simply kidding themselves - but then again, that seems to be in abundance right now from the right in America.

moo wrote:

c933103 wrote:

CitizenJustin wrote:

Stop the “both sides” nonsense. The vast majority of violent extremist groups in the US are right wing and you don’t see liberals walking into churches, clubs, malls and restaurants committing massacres, do you? According to polls 45% of Republicans support the storming of the capital and over 60% would support giving Trump a third term. This essentially amounts to a lifetime appointment. All of those actions, including an attempted coup and overturning a legitimate election is traitorous and you’ll see nothing of the sort from the left.

The left is not spreading dangerous propaganda that led to a violent mob storming the capitol for the first time since 1814. The left isn’t spreading conspiracies that right wing politicians rape children and drink their blood. That lie led to an armed man walking into the pizza restaurant involved in this conspiracy and endangering the lives of innocent patrons. All of this toxicity is on the right. We’re calling them traitors because waving confederate flags in a government building after beating a cop to death IS TRAITOROUS. What we need to do is place the blame right where it belongs and leave the both sides nonsense where it belongs. In the garbage.

Have you tried to describe the event happened in American cities half year ago using similar tone?

Yes, and you cant do it.

Theres absolutely no way you can equate a group of people who are more likely to be killed by police, earn lower wages, have a worse equality of life, have worse outcomes in healthcare and education, and in general have been treated like a second class of person by the leaders of the US since the birth if the country, with a violent insurrection stoked and guided by the current President of the United States trying to overthrow a democratic election.

During the BLM protests and riots we saw countless acts of police being brutal, violent and hateful - driving down streets firing tear gas grenades at buildings, storming peaceful protestors and we literally saw unmarked people in paramilitary outfits driving up in unmarked vehicles, grabbing people off the streets and bundling them into the back of said vehicles - luckily these people were just held without charge for a period of time and released.

Yes, there was violence and looting on the side of the BLM protesters (and we really did see proven Trump supporters taking part in that violence and looting, plenty of video and photo evidence of that at the time - compared to the unsubstantiated claims of “its all antifa!” From the right during this past weeks events...) but that was *vastly* outweighed by the rioting and violence that the police of the United States carried out at the same time. And again, that was stoked and guided by President Trumps comments - theres a common theme going on.

Anyone who tries to make the equivalence is simply kidding themselves - but then again, that seems to be in abundance right now from the right in America.

If police act deemed brutal is why it caused BLM participants to increase their use of violence, then why would those target anyone other the polices?

c933103 wrote:

moo wrote:

c933103 wrote:

Have you tried to describe the event happened in American cities half year ago using similar tone?

Yes, and you cant do it.

Theres absolutely no way you can equate a group of people who are more likely to be killed by police, earn lower wages, have a worse equality of life, have worse outcomes in healthcare and education, and in general have been treated like a second class of person by the leaders of the US since the birth if the country, with a violent insurrection stoked and guided by the current President of the United States trying to overthrow a democratic election.

During the BLM protests and riots we saw countless acts of police being brutal, violent and hateful - driving down streets firing tear gas grenades at buildings, storming peaceful protestors and we literally saw unmarked people in paramilitary outfits driving up in unmarked vehicles, grabbing people off the streets and bundling them into the back of said vehicles - luckily these people were just held without charge for a period of time and released.

Yes, there was violence and looting on the side of the BLM protesters (and we really did see proven Trump supporters taking part in that violence and looting, plenty of video and photo evidence of that at the time - compared to the unsubstantiated claims of “its all antifa!” From the right during this past weeks events...) but that was *vastly* outweighed by the rioting and violence that the police of the United States carried out at the same time. And again, that was stoked and guided by President Trumps comments - theres a common theme going on.

Anyone who tries to make the equivalence is simply kidding themselves - but then again, that seems to be in abundance right now from the right in America.

If police act deemed brutal is why it caused BLM participants to increase their use of violence, then why would those target anyone other the polices?

The increased police brutality caused outrage world wide - the only people it didnt cause outrage with is with Trump supporters and the right in the US...

You are still trying for equivalency in your posts, yet none exists. BLM are fighting for the right to exist equally to other US citizens. Trump and his supporters are fighting to overthrow democracy in your country. There is no equivalency there.

moo wrote:

c933103 wrote:

moo wrote:

Yes, and you cant do it.

Theres absolutely no way you can equate a group of people who are more likely to be killed by police, earn lower wages, have a worse equality of life, have worse outcomes in healthcare and education, and in general have been treated like a second class of person by the leaders of the US since the birth if the country, with a violent insurrection stoked and guided by the current President of the United States trying to overthrow a democratic election.

During the BLM protests and riots we saw countless acts of police being brutal, violent and hateful - driving down streets firing tear gas grenades at buildings, storming peaceful protestors and we literally saw unmarked people in paramilitary outfits driving up in unmarked vehicles, grabbing people off the streets and bundling them into the back of said vehicles - luckily these people were just held without charge for a period of time and released.

Yes, there was violence and looting on the side of the BLM protesters (and we really did see proven Trump supporters taking part in that violence and looting, plenty of video and photo evidence of that at the time - compared to the unsubstantiated claims of “its all antifa!” From the right during this past weeks events...) but that was *vastly* outweighed by the rioting and violence that the police of the United States carried out at the same time. And again, that was stoked and guided by President Trumps comments - theres a common theme going on.

Anyone who tries to make the equivalence is simply kidding themselves - but then again, that seems to be in abundance right now from the right in America.

If police act deemed brutal is why it caused BLM participants to increase their use of violence, then why would those target anyone other the polices?

The increased police brutality caused outrage world wide - the only people it didnt cause outrage with is with Trump supporters and the right in the US...

Did not answer my question, if violence in US BLM protest is a result of police violence then why they aren't just targeting polices?

You are still trying for equivalency in your posts, yet none exists. BLM are fighting for the right to exist equally to other US citizens. Trump and his supporters are fighting to overthrow democracy in your country. There is no equivalency there.

What you said could be true for those actionary groups but it's nonsense to apply such label to what you call "Trump supporter" in the same sense it shouldn't be said that all "BLM supporter" are for violently overthrowing the society

c933103 wrote:

moo wrote:

c933103 wrote:

If police act deemed brutal is why it caused BLM participants to increase their use of violence, then why would those target anyone other the polices?

The increased police brutality caused outrage world wide - the only people it didnt cause outrage with is with Trump supporters and the right in the US...

Did not answer my question, if violence in US BLM protest is a result of police violence then why they aren't just targeting polices?

You are still trying for equivalency in your posts, yet none exists. BLM are fighting for the right to exist equally to other US citizens. Trump and his supporters are fighting to overthrow democracy in your country. There is no equivalency there.

What you said could be true for those actionary groups but it's nonsense to apply such label to what you call "Trump supporter" in the same sense it shouldn't be said that all "BLM supporter" are for violently overthrowing the society

I didnt answer your question because its infantile - whatever happened in the BLM actions last year, the “other side” doesnt get a turn. This isnt kindergarten and you arent playing with a toy, you dont get to say to teacher “but they got a go, I want one!”

Grow the hell up and put some big kid pants on for a change, you cant change the narrative on this one, Trump just tried to overthrow the elected US government.

davidjohnson6 wrote:

I'm struggling a bit with comparisons with Weimar Germany and the early 1930s
In Weimar, the Nazi party had the SA at its disposal - an organised and large paramilitary group. The crowd on the Capitol were a bunch of chaotic disorganised hillbillies without a plan. Even the (failed) Munich beer hall putsch was better organised

Yes, the people goading the mob knew exactly what they were doing, but to equate Washington with Weimar Germany seems a little overdone to me

Depends, would the "Proud Boys" not compare to the SA?

It is becoming clear that this was an assassination attempt against Mike Pence (and Pelosi). An organized attempt at decapitation of the #2 and #3 in line of succession. He should immediately invoke the 25th amendment. Pence is going to need that lifetime secret service protection. These MAGAts even erected a gallows outside.

https://twitter.com/exportedfrommi/stat ... 27522?s=10


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

c933103 wrote:

Did not answer my question, if violence in US BLM protest is a result of police violence then why they aren't just targeting polices?

moo wrote:

a group of people who are more likely to be killed by police, earn lower wages, have a worse equality of life, have worse outcomes in healthcare and education, and in general have been treated like a second class of person by the leaders of the US since the birth if the country

Note that the person you are quoting doesn’t actually say just the police.

You may be confused as to what the BLM movement was actually about and what actually was the touch paper incident.

Indeed if it were just police one might expect only police to be targeted but it isn’t, so it’s not.

I’d certainly say that the cause of the law breaking in either instance should have little to nothing to do with regards mitigating the law breaking.

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

More evidence this was an assassination attempt
https://twitter.com/macfarlanenews/stat ... 93283?s=21

c933103 wrote:

moo wrote:

c933103 wrote:

If police act deemed brutal is why it caused BLM participants to increase their use of violence, then why would those target anyone other the polices?

The increased police brutality caused outrage world wide - the only people it didnt cause outrage with is with Trump supporters and the right in the US...

Did not answer my question, if violence in US BLM protest is a result of police violence then why they aren't just targeting polices?

You are still trying for equivalency in your posts, yet none exists. BLM are fighting for the right to exist equally to other US citizens. Trump and his supporters are fighting to overthrow democracy in your country. There is no equivalency there.

What you said could be true for those actionary groups but it's nonsense to apply such label to what you call "Trump supporter" in the same sense it shouldn't be said that all "BLM supporter" are for violently overthrowing the society

Get the hell out of my city.

To me, what happened last Wednesday at and inside the US Capitol building was not much different than the truck bombing domestic terrorism act of Timothy McVeigh of the OKC Federal Building over 25 years ago. Like with McVeigh those that rioted in and around the US Capital building have similar racist, 2nd Amendment absolutism, anti-Government, anti-taxation, anti-immigrant and pro-authoritian beliefs of the current RW extremists as McVeigh had. Adding to that today is the rejection of any health emergency orders limiting movement, requiring face/nose masks to deal with the Covid-19, while BLM/anti-Racism protesters were able to protest with support of Democrat Party politicians, the several years of 'take a knee' protests by sports players during the playing at games of our National Anthem. Unlike with McVeigth, this was triggered by a vile and open racist President in Trump that has let these people

Problem is that we now have Millions of McVeighs and some who would want to duplicate his terror violence, including the discovery of a van parked 2 blocks from the Capitol during the riot that was loaded with large amounts of guns, ammo, bombs and 'molitov cocktails'. In the immediate aftermath of the OKC bombing, right wing militia groups got shut down, key people arrested, anti-government rhetoric died down somewhat. It somewhat came back in part due to the 9/11 terror attacks.

What I fear is our government and country is in deep trouble. Too many elected to office are RWNJ's, there is support of the Republican Party of them, our government buildings becoming more fortified and less public friendly. I expect the US Capitol will look like a military base for the next few years as the Biden Administration takes over from Inauguration day.. Attempts to arrest and prosecute those involved are going to literally trigger a violent reaction from many of us wanting rough justice, a bypass of Constitutional rights, to get revenge on those that desecrate our government buildings. Even with President Trump, we want to removed from office in an expedited way either by the untested 25th Amendment, a rushed impeachment or force him to resign like Nixon, and upon out of office to give him rough justice including execution for treason. We cannot lower ourselves to the RWNJ's 'American Huns' did or we will surely end the existence of the USA.

IMO, the key is that people should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law and no further.

That said, pussyfooting around and pretending that these people are just a few good old boys having a bit of fun would be very dangerous.

art wrote:

Anything wrong with encouraging people to manifest their discontent? In a totalitarian state that would be seen so. What's the position in the US?

They can dislike the election results as much as they like and they are absolutely free to protest. However, in this case it was not a protest. It was a well organized
attempt to interfere with the election, a coup attempt. The storming of Capitol Hill was planned in advance (likely with help on the inside). At that moment the protest
stops being a protest and starts being a (planned) coup.

ArcticSEA wrote:

More evidence this was an assassination attempt
https://twitter.com/macfarlanenews/stat ... 93283?s=21

Another source in addition to your twitter link. This man came to D.C. with the purpose of shooting Nanci Pelosi according the man's own text messages.

Federal authorities charged the man, Cleveland Grover Meredith Jr., with writing the threats and possessing an unregistered firearm and ammunition, and he is being detained at least until a court hearing next week, according to court documents obtained by CNN and his initial court proceedings on Friday.
Meredith had allegedly sent a text message saying he was thinking of "putting a bullet in [Pelosi's] noggin on Live TV" and another that said he was headed to Washington with "a s--- ton of ... armor piercing ammo," according to court documents. On Wednesday, he also allegedly texted about running over Pelosi. Meredith punctuated his messages with purple devil emojis, and used several slurs for women to refer to the speaker, the police said.

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/01/08/poli ... index.html (the above text is about halfway done on the page).

bennett123 wrote:

IMO, the key is that people should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law and no further.

That said, pussyfooting around and pretending that these people are just a few good old boys having a bit of fun would be very dangerous.

I agree.

IMO precedents need to be set

- for invading the Capitol building (and intending to do the same)

- for preventing government business being conducted (and intending to do the same) - in this case certification of EC votes

- for imprisonment of elected representatives (and intending to do the same)

- for physical assault of elected representatives (and intending to do the same)



-

Lilienthal wrote:

Stumbled upon this opinion piece in the German newspaper Süddeutsche Zeitung. Here's an excerpt. It's quite strong but...fitting:

"With the people that stormed the Capitol, dialog has become impossible. The same goes for millions of Trump supporters across the Country. They've developed into an anger-machine, fueled by burning rage, conspiracy theories and a deep-rooted fear of a changing world. To put it pompously, Trumpism means a renunciation of the principles of enlightenment and man's return to his self-imposed mental immaturity. Simply put, one might just say that the country has been hijacked by idiots."

(9.1.21, got it from print, don't have a link)

This is very scary. It might get much worse before getting better. This would mean that the Biden admin and even a moderate GOP government after that have to face a Weimar situation.

Racism in politics is not something that is unique for Europe 1930s.

GOP with people like Charles Lindbergh pushed for similar politics in USA. And those people like in Europe did not disappear but has returned the last 6-7 years on both sides of the Atlantic.

I would say that Trump has a got a political Agenda as Mr Lindbergh has in 1940s. I would say that GOP today do not represent equal rights for black people, Muslims etc in the USA. I am therefore a bit surprised that Jewish groups in USA has desired that Trump version of GOP is a smart bet.c

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/ ... 180974365/

moo wrote:

c933103 wrote:

What you said could be true for those actionary groups but it's nonsense to apply such label to what you call "Trump supporter" in the same sense it shouldn't be said that all "BLM supporter" are for violently overthrowing the society

I didnt answer your question because its infantile - whatever happened in the BLM actions last year, the “other side” doesnt get a turn. This isnt kindergarten and you arent playing with a toy, you dont get to say to teacher “but they got a go, I want one!”

Grow the hell up and put some big kid pants on for a change, you cant change the narrative on this one, Trump just tried to overthrow the elected US government.

It was your previous reply that claim this cannot be apply to the other side. My intention was not to support any side, but to depict why it's not correct to only blame one side being causing problems

flipdewaf wrote:

c933103 wrote:

Did not answer my question, if violence in US BLM protest is a result of police violence then why they aren't just targeting polices?

moo wrote:

a group of people who are more likely to be killed by police, earn lower wages, have a worse equality of life, have worse outcomes in healthcare and education, and in general have been treated like a second class of person by the leaders of the US since the birth if the country

Note that the person you are quoting doesn’t actually say just the police.

You may be confused as to what the BLM movement was actually about and what actually was the touch paper incident.

Indeed if it were just police one might expect only police to be targeted but it isn’t, so it’s not.

I’d certainly say that the cause of the law breaking in either instance should have little to nothing to do with regards mitigating the law breaking.

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don't understand how the other parts of the comment have direct relevancy with the use of violence and looting, despite I can see those as part of the problem, so I didn't comment on those.

Aaron747 wrote:

c933103 wrote:

moo wrote:

The increased police brutality caused outrage world wide - the only people it didnt cause outrage with is with Trump supporters and the right in the US...

Did not answer my question, if violence in US BLM protest is a result of police violence then why they aren't just targeting polices?

You are still trying for equivalency in your posts, yet none exists. BLM are fighting for the right to exist equally to other US citizens. Trump and his supporters are fighting to overthrow democracy in your country. There is no equivalency there.

What you said could be true for those actionary groups but it's nonsense to apply such label to what you call "Trump supporter" in the same sense it shouldn't be said that all "BLM supporter" are for violently overthrowing the society

You did not respond to my comment either - might want to check back before getting on another user’s case for overlooking something

If you mean the comment you quoted me previously then I found nothing disagreeable in your comment to make additional response to.

ArcticSEA wrote:

More evidence this was an assassination attempt
https://twitter.com/macfarlanenews/stat ... 93283?s=21

Well, let's face it, remaining Trump supporters either are terrorists or support terrorism. There isn't much wiggle room left.
For the last 20 years muslims have essentially been required to denounce al Qaeda and/or ISIS every time anything even tangential to islamic terrorism came up, or be considered supporters. And even then there were always those saying the denouncement wasn't unequivocal enough. Only fair to apply the same standards whenever Trump comes up, as the correlation is both obvious and direct, much, much more so than between believing in Allah and flying planes into buildings.

Best regards
Thomas

olle wrote:

Lilienthal wrote:

Stumbled upon this opinion piece in the German newspaper Süddeutsche Zeitung. Here's an excerpt. It's quite strong but...fitting:

"With the people that stormed the Capitol, dialog has become impossible. The same goes for millions of Trump supporters across the Country. They've developed into an anger-machine, fueled by burning rage, conspiracy theories and a deep-rooted fear of a changing world. To put it pompously, Trumpism means a renunciation of the principles of enlightenment and man's return to his self-imposed mental immaturity. Simply put, one might just say that the country has been hijacked by idiots."

(9.1.21, got it from print, don't have a link)

This is very scary. It might get much worse before getting better. This would mean that the Biden admin and even a moderate GOP government after that have to face a Weimar situation.

Racism in politics is not something that is unique for Europe 1930s.

GOP with people like Charles Lindbergh pushed for similar politics in USA. And those people like in Europe did not disappear but has returned the last 6-7 years on both sides of the Atlantic.

I would say that Trump has a got a political Agenda as Mr Lindbergh has in 1940s. I would say that GOP today do not represent equal rights for black people, Muslims etc in the USA. I am therefore a bit surprised that Jewish groups in USA has desired that Trump version of GOP is a smart bet.c

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/ ... 180974365/

I have always managed to contain any great admiration for 'Lindy', yes being the first solo pilot across the Atlantic was daring to say the least though I get the impression that many in the US in particular, think he was the first to fly across the pond at all, in fact he was number 92 or 93, the first being the almost unknown Alcock and Brown in 1919, though they were not politically motivated show offs.
While what happened to his baby was truly awful, he was anti semitic who went well beyond Isolationism to open admiration for the Nazis, he certainly wrote off the RAF, before Summer 1940 at least. His agenda was not well hidden.
Must have been a bit of a red face moment when Hitler declared war on the US, of course he then had to serve in come capacity and I am glad when the camps were liberated in 1945, he saw the inevitable endgame of the regime he had at least been sympathetic towards, I hope it haunted him for the rest of his days.

Not just him though, really he was a poster boy for political/business interests who loathed FDR and the New Deal, like in Germany right wingers and associated business interests saw the SA thugs and that odd ranting guy as a useful tool for them, who they would be able to control should he come to power.

While not wanting to lump in this case, Jewish voters in a bloc, I was always under the impression that if anything, they tend to lean more Democrat.
And I don't mean just the stereotype (used by the right) of rich Hollywood types.
Given the support in Charlotsville in 2017, at the insurrection last week, of open neo Nazi's, KKK etc, for Trump (and no doubt at the ballot box, I bet for them he was the first time they voted), being Jewish in the GOP must be concerning.
The only people who can change that are the GOP themselves, given how totally behind Trump most of them have been up to now, that's going to be a problem.

c933103 wrote:

CitizenJustin wrote:

c933103 wrote:

Labelling half of rhe other country as traitor and use it as a reason to think the other side should not be protected by law, is why America seems to be falling apart.
Such idea exists in both the left and the right.

Stop the “both sides” nonsense. The vast majority of violent extremist groups in the US are right wing and you don’t see liberals walking into churches, clubs, malls and restaurants committing massacres, do you? According to polls 45% of Republicans support the storming of the capital and over 60% would support giving Trump a third term. This essentially amounts to a lifetime appointment. All of those actions, including an attempted coup and overturning a legitimate election is traitorous and you’ll see nothing of the sort from the left.

The left is not spreading dangerous propaganda that led to a violent mob storming the capitol for the first time since 1814. The left isn’t spreading conspiracies that right wing politicians rape children and drink their blood. That lie led to an armed man walking into the pizza restaurant involved in this conspiracy and endangering the lives of innocent patrons. All of this toxicity is on the right. We’re calling them traitors because waving confederate flags in a government building after beating a cop to death IS TRAITOROUS. What we need to do is place the blame right where it belongs and leave the both sides nonsense where it belongs. In the garbage.

Have you tried to describe the event happened in American cities half year ago using similar tone?

From a purely historical standpoint, the police have nearly always been the right hand of fascists. I don’t think you realize just how easy it is for people to abuse positions of authority. Police brutality is rarely condemned by the right. Not today, not yesterday, not a century ago. None of this is new. It’s a continuation of the far-rights inclination towards authoritarianism.

davidjohnson6 wrote:

I'm struggling a bit with comparisons with Weimar Germany and the early 1930s
In Weimar, the Nazi party had the SA at its disposal - an organised and large paramilitary group. The crowd on the Capitol were a bunch of chaotic disorganised hillbillies without a plan. Even the (failed) Munich beer hall putsch was better organised

Yes, the people goading the mob knew exactly what they were doing, but to equate Washington with Weimar Germany seems a little overdone to me

German marching ants versus US cowboy.
Each in style for their national/cultural background ( and their window in time, things have changed).

.. BUT look at the puppet handlers in the background.
This was nothing spontaneous!
It is not only Trump and his entourage it is
also the GOP midlevel to upper leadership.

I've been reading this thread, and while I recognise the seriousness of what happened this week, I'm wondering if people here are taking things a little too negatively. When I compare the discussion on here, with what I see on ABC, CBS and NBC, it seems as if people here are particularly downbeat. The journalists working for these news organisations are not thugs - they have generally had a well-rounded education and are aware of the parallels of history

Furthermore, come 20-Jan, the Federal Govt will change its direction considerably. I get that Washington has somewhat limited capacity to act in what are largely the affairs of the individual states, but with the House of Reps, Senate and Presidency all under the control of the Democrats, it seems likely that Congress/Biden will want to do something in reaction to what happened on Wednesday. I'm not sure what that action will be, but it seems unlikely that it will be simply brushed under the carpet

The darkest hour is just before the dawn

c933103 wrote:

I don't understand how the other parts of the comment have direct relevancy with the use of violence and looting, despite I can see those as part of the problem, so I didn't comment on those.

So you don’t understand why the causal factors of the BLM movement outside of the police should cause action against others than the police?

Sorry if I can’t help you if you choose to characterise a problem in your own way ignoring significant factors then wonder why your wilful ignorance doesn’t correlate with the truth.

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

flipdewaf wrote:

c933103 wrote:

I don't understand how the other parts of the comment have direct relevancy with the use of violence and looting, despite I can see those as part of the problem, so I didn't comment on those.

So you don’t understand why the causal factors of the BLM movement outside of the police should cause action against others than the police?

Sorry if I can’t help you if you choose to characterise a problem in your own way ignoring significant factors then wonder why your wilful ignorance doesn’t correlate with the truth.

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

As an non American I have tried to ask and search for answers about that when BLM was occupying headlines but didn't find a good answer completed with historical background. There might be many things that American would think as common sense and just went on discussing things based on those but those aren't obvious to outsiders and I think some of those factors are causing me to have difficulty to understand the situation.

c933103 wrote:

flipdewaf wrote:

c933103 wrote:

I don't understand how the other parts of the comment have direct relevancy with the use of violence and looting, despite I can see those as part of the problem, so I didn't comment on those.

So you don’t understand why the causal factors of the BLM movement outside of the police should cause action against others than the police?

Sorry if I can’t help you if you choose to characterise a problem in your own way ignoring significant factors then wonder why your wilful ignorance doesn’t correlate with the truth.

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

As an non American I have tried to ask and search for answers about that when BLM was occupying headlines but didn't find a good answer completed with historical background. There might be many things that American would think as common sense and just went on discussing things based on those but those aren't obvious to outsiders and I think some of those factors are causing me to have difficulty to understand the situation.

Fair enough, so the answer to why was there action by the BLM movement (justified or otherwise) was targeted at more than just the police was because the grievances characterised by the movement were to do with more than just treatment of black people by the police.

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

IMO, the confidence that those who invaded Capitol Hill did so clearly knowing that the door was ajar is a major difference than when previous groups marched.

Am I the only one who noticed in that video of the woman getting shot she wasn’t shot by Capital Police. She was shot by secret service, which means that the door they were trying to enter must’ve had: A. The Veep. B. Speaker of the House. C. Members of intelligence committees. D. President Pro-Temp. E. All of the above

SYRAVGEEK wrote:

Am I the only one who noticed in that video of the woman getting shot she wasn’t shot by Capital Police.

You can't tell who shot her.

The most you can see of the shooter, at least in the footage that I've seen thus far, is a hand and lower part of the arm. All that shows is the shooter has black sleeves. That could be a secret service suit, but could equally be the police uniform.

And even if it was a secret service agent, that still does not mean any high ranking officials where actually in that room. It might well be true, but it could also be the agent simply panicked. Or maybe he had orders to stop anyone at all cost, and felt this was his last recourse.

petertenthije wrote:

SYRAVGEEK wrote:

Am I the only one who noticed in that video of the woman getting shot she wasn’t shot by Capital Police.

You can't tell who shot her.

The most you can see of the shooter, at least in the footage that I've seen thus far, is a hand and lower part of the arm. All that shows is the shooter has black sleeves. That could be a secret service suit, but could equally be the police uniform.

And even if it was a secret service agent, that still does not mean any high ranking officials where actually in that room. It might well be true, but it could also be the agent simply panicked. Or maybe he had orders to stop anyone at all cost, and felt this was his last recourse.

A high ranking official can not have every bit of sensitive information with him/her at all times. On the floor of the Senate, for example, Pence, McConnell, Schumer, etc. can not have filing cabinet after filing cabinet being wheeled behind them. It could be that Capital Police are stationed outside offices of high ranking Congress members because of sensitive information. It could also be that Capital Police have a "fire when necessary" order when something like this happens. However, in the chaos of the moment, who knows? No one was shot when they broke into Speaker Pelosi's office.

Sorry if this has already been posted but it is another lie that needs to be called out

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tommybeer/ ... e393136379
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/08/fbi-say ... -riot.html

Antifa was not involved at all in this coup attempt.

seb146 wrote:

Sorry if this has already been posted but it is another lie that needs to be called out

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tommybeer/ ... e393136379
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/08/fbi-say ... -riot.html

Antifa was not involved at all in this coup attempt.

It’s telling that while many of these people bristled are being called dumb for supporting Trump, by insisting this was actually Antifa they now don’t seem to mind demonstrating that they’re actually not dumb, they’re nuts.

seb146 wrote:

Sorry if this has already been posted but it is another lie that needs to be called out

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tommybeer/ ... e393136379
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/08/fbi-say ... -riot.html

Antifa was not involved at all in this coup attempt.

I’m confused by the hatred towards Antifa?

What’s the issue with antifa? Anti racism and anti fascism sound good no? Unless you are a racist of a fascist. I guess it’s telling you you don’t like a group that opposes fascism. Maybe I’m missing something.

Fred


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