luckyone wrote:

seb146 wrote:

luckyone wrote:

She’s better be able to back that up. That’s a bold statement.

Why is it that Republicans can make statements with zero proof and we are all supposed to believe it but a non-Republican makes a statement and it is sus?

Because in my opinion ANYONE who makes a statement like that should back it up.

It was literally linked. Go back and look. Also, REPUBLICAN conspiracy theorist Lauren Boebert tweeted Pelosi's whereabouts during the attempted coup

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/01/12/ ... ls-resign/

I have a theory about these Republicans who defend and deflect from this attempted violent coup:

They do not want minorities and alternate voices to have a seat at the table. They have shown that during the attempted coup. They continue to blame Obama and Hillary (a Black man and a woman) for their failed coup. They blame LGBTQ+ and "liberals" for their attempted coup. They continue to blame everyone not white, not their brand of Christian, not heterosexual for this failed coup.

It is just a theory of mine. I know many of these MAGA coup participants are racist and their supporters both here and in Congress and state houses across the country would disagree because "I am not like that!!!" but, still, I think there is some truth to this. White evangelical extremist right wingers refuse to share power with other Americans not under that VERY specific group of white evangelical far right wing.

It has been pointed out that in June, Trump signed an executive order that "...calls on the attorney general to prosecute to the fullest extent of the law any person or group that destroys or vandalizes a monument, memorial or statue. Federal law authorities a penalty of up to 10 years in prison for the “willful injury” of federal property." Well, now, that same order would presumably apply to his supporters who stormed the Capitol last week.
https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/other/do ... r-BB161yUk
Also: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 84256.html
Womp.

ArcticSEA wrote:

It has been pointed out that in June, Trump signed an executive order that "...calls on the attorney general to prosecute to the fullest extent of the law any person or group that destroys or vandalizes a monument, memorial or statue. Federal law authorities a penalty of up to 10 years in prison for the “willful injury” of federal property." Well, now, that same order would presumably apply to his supporters who stormed the Capitol last week.
https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/other/do ... r-BB161yUk
Also: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 84256.html
Womp.

Indeed, karma’s a bitch!

ArcticSEA wrote:

There are rumors that it was newly-elected (and high school drop out) Lauren Boebert (the insane woman trying to bring her gun onto the house floor) was one who was giving "tours" to the insurrectionists. If this is true, she must be expelled from Congress. Rifle, CO not sending their best.

In which case, after due process of course, investigations, leading to trial, then.......oh the irony, you've guessed it?
'Lock Her Up'.

Soon after Biden is President and with VP Harris the US Senate is in Democratic party control, we need to see several special joint committees of the Congress to examine with sworn witness to consider appropriate responses and laws as to the violent riot/coup attempt at the Capital, the 2020 Elections, dealing with the Covid-19 pandemic along with examining the Trump maladministration handling of it.
As to the Coup attempt at the Capital, there must be a full examination of the massive security lapses, who if anyone in the US Capital police, members of Congress and others who may have enabled it. Any Congressional member who facilitated it must be expelled from office. How to improve security but keep a balance of public access.
There needs to be a through examination of the 2020 elections, to see where flaws are to try to fix with a new Voting Rights Act. Improving the security and integrity of elections must be done to try to bring back the confidence of the people.
For sure the Trump maladministration made horrible decisions in dealing with the Covid-19 pandemic. Yes, not all of the problems can be blamed on Trump but he for sure made it far worse than it should have been. We need to make sure we have a robust public health structure, improve international cooperation to catch and reduce the risks of-pandemic diseases sooner, make sure the distribution of the Covid-19 vaccines are properly done, to make sure long-term victims get the health care they need, and correct flaws so public health directives, like using masks, social distancing is a national standard and state Governors will be able and must deal with the current and potential health crises in the future.

A MAGAt has been arrested, he is apparently suspected of being the guy who murdered Brian Sicknick.
https://twitter.com/cnnbrk/status/13497 ... 97665?s=21
Definitely looks like antifa to me.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

The person accused of the murder of Brian Sicknick still deserves a fair trial. However, if the jury find him guilty...

What do Antifa look like?.

bennett123 wrote:

What do Antifa look like?.

Good question, but doesn't apply here. Lots of Trump supporters that got all into a riot and caused death and destruction/

bennett123 wrote:

What do Antifa look like?.

You perhaps missed the joke.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

With all the MAGA violence recently, this is worth posting somewhere

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/eric-swa ... w4YJMg7G_Q

seb146 wrote:

With all the MAGA violence recently, this is worth posting somewhere

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/eric-swa ... w4YJMg7G_Q

Racketeering and Corrupt Influences Act, they could get him with that

seb146 wrote:

With all the MAGA violence recently, this is worth posting somewhere

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/eric-swa ... w4YJMg7G_Q

This linked article was even better coming from the Daily show. Showing where all the violent statements came from.

Trevor Noah's team did a hell of a job.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/daily-sh ... 42b7020d8e
Article

Video from youtube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nz-zWeq ... e=emb_logo

casinterest wrote:

seb146 wrote:

With all the MAGA violence recently, this is worth posting somewhere

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/eric-swa ... w4YJMg7G_Q

This linked article was even better coming from the Daily show. Showing where all the violent statements came from.

Trevor Noah's team did a hell of a job.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/daily-sh ... 42b7020d8e
Article

Video from youtube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nz-zWeq ... e=emb_logo

Chilling to watch. And none of them will be held to account. The talking heads on Fox "News" will keep their jobs and guys like Graham, Gaetz, Jordan etc will be re-elected over and over.

https://www.newsweek.com/proud-boys-int ... ys-1562062

I don't doubt that the majority of the crowd wasn't "in on it" but it definitely is starting to look like this was more than just smashing some windows out of frustration. Wouldn't be surprised to find in the future that it was a prison style diversion...you idiots cause a riot, and we'll go to work while everyone's distracted.

Mix this with some of the alleged "private tours" that some representatives gave to some highly questionable individuals, and a much more sinister plot seems to unfold.

Pelosi did say that some members of Congress could face prosecution if they are found to have assisted. Given how farcical the planning and logic was to begin with, I again wouldn't be the least bit surprised to hear that there was communication between some Congress members and the traitors during the riot.

seb146 wrote:

I have a theory about these Republicans who defend and deflect from this attempted violent coup:

They do not want minorities and alternate voices to have a seat at the table.

Period. This is the cold hard truth. IMO this is what the majority of Republicans who objected did it for:
1) Create "election fraud"
2) Target allegations of election fraud in predominately black and brown communities (Atlanta, Detroit, Philadelphia, Milwaukee)
3) Object to certification (which obviously will have no bearing on the result)
3a) Using said objection, call for an election commission into "fraud"
4) Tighten voting restrictions as a result of "fraud"
5) Disenfranchise minority voters in urban areas to decrease Democratic turnout.
6) Win elections

Republicans know that on the Presidential level, and to an extent on the Senate level, they are really going to struggle going forward as demographics shift to denser, more multicultural urban areas. And if turnout in those areas continue to increase the Republicans will have a real problem on their hands across the country but particularly in traditionally red states like Georgia, North Carolina, Texas, etc. That's IMO why Republicans have focused their voter fraud allegations in cities with substantial multicultural populations. That's why they advocated to "stop the count" in Pennsylvania when the overwhelming majority of remaining votes were coming from Philadelphia. That's why they'll fight hard against any future for mail in voting in these places.

NYCVIE wrote:

Period. This is the cold hard truth. IMO this is what the majority of Republicans who objected did it for:

Indeed. A recent conversation between myself and a "colleague" went something like:

ME: So why do you think the election was a fraud?
HIM: It was obviously a fraud, you can't tell me it wasn't.
ME: I'm not trying to, I'm trying to understand what makes you so convinced,
HIM: Just everything about it. Everyone is calling it a fraud.
ME: (Tempted to question "everyone" but didn't) Can you give me one example of the more widespread fraud?
HIM: Half a million dead people voted (can't remember the exact number, but it was something like this).
ME: How do you know this?
HIM: Trump has the proof, it's obvious.
ME: Can you name a handful of them?
HIM: There's HALF A MILLION, not a handful!
ME: OK, so even easier to name just a few of them?
HIM: I tell you, we have the proof, and Trump will show it when a court is forced to listen.
ME: He's had more than 50 court cases already. Did he allege fraud in any of them or did he show any proof of where this half a million figure came from?
HIM: You're the same as all the f****** commies.

I wasn't able to ask some of my most quizzing of questions such as:

1.) Let's say there was voter fraud. What makes you say that it was done by only the Democrats and that every fraudulent vote was for them, with none for the Republicans?
2.) If the Dems pulled off such a massive fraud, why do you think it only harmed Trump and not the Senators or Representatives?
3.) In hindsight, was Trump's call for none of his followers to use mail in ballots a huge mistake?
4.) After telling his followers not to use mail in ballots, and then attempting to force States to not count mail in ballots, do you think he said this to ensure fairness?

This guy is a reasonably intelligent, successful small business owner.

Virtual737 wrote:

NYCVIE wrote:

Period. This is the cold hard truth. IMO this is what the majority of Republicans who objected did it for:

Indeed. A recent conversation between myself and a "colleague" went something like:

ME: So why do you think the election was a fraud?
HIM: It was obviously a fraud, you can't tell me it wasn't.
ME: I'm not trying to, I'm trying to understand what makes you so convinced,
HIM: Just everything about it. Everyone is calling it a fraud.
ME: (Tempted to question "everyone" but didn't) Can you give me one example of the more widespread fraud?
HIM: Half a million dead people voted (can't remember the exact number, but it was something like this).
ME: How do you know this?
HIM: Trump has the proof, it's obvious.
ME: Can you name a handful of them?
HIM: There's HALF A MILLION, not a handful!
ME: OK, so even easier to name just a few of them?
HIM: I tell you, we have the proof, and Trump will show it when a court is forced to listen.
ME: He's had more than 50 court cases already. Did he allege fraud in any of them or did he show any proof of where this half a million figure came from?
HIM: You're the same as all the f****** commies.

I wasn't able to ask some of my most quizzing of questions such as:

1.) Let's say there was voter fraud. What makes you say that it was done by only the Democrats and that every fraudulent vote was for them, with none for the Republicans?
2.) If the Dems pulled off such a massive fraud, why do you think it only harmed Trump and not the Senators or Representatives?
3.) In hindsight, was Trump's call for none of his followers to use mail in ballots a huge mistake?
4.) After telling his followers not to use mail in ballots, and then attempting to force States to not count mail in ballots, do you think he said this to ensure fairness?

This guy is a reasonably intelligent, successful small business owner.

Seems fairly standard for a Trumper - run through a list of stock answers, then start throwing out insults when they've got nothing left.

scbriml wrote:

Virtual737 wrote:

NYCVIE wrote:

Period. This is the cold hard truth. IMO this is what the majority of Republicans who objected did it for:

Indeed. A recent conversation between myself and a "colleague" went something like:

ME: So why do you think the election was a fraud?
HIM: It was obviously a fraud, you can't tell me it wasn't.
ME: I'm not trying to, I'm trying to understand what makes you so convinced,
HIM: Just everything about it. Everyone is calling it a fraud.
ME: (Tempted to question "everyone" but didn't) Can you give me one example of the more widespread fraud?
HIM: Half a million dead people voted (can't remember the exact number, but it was something like this).
ME: How do you know this?
HIM: Trump has the proof, it's obvious.
ME: Can you name a handful of them?
HIM: There's HALF A MILLION, not a handful!
ME: OK, so even easier to name just a few of them?
HIM: I tell you, we have the proof, and Trump will show it when a court is forced to listen.
ME: He's had more than 50 court cases already. Did he allege fraud in any of them or did he show any proof of where this half a million figure came from?
HIM: You're the same as all the f****** commies.

I wasn't able to ask some of my most quizzing of questions such as:

1.) Let's say there was voter fraud. What makes you say that it was done by only the Democrats and that every fraudulent vote was for them, with none for the Republicans?
2.) If the Dems pulled off such a massive fraud, why do you think it only harmed Trump and not the Senators or Representatives?
3.) In hindsight, was Trump's call for none of his followers to use mail in ballots a huge mistake?
4.) After telling his followers not to use mail in ballots, and then attempting to force States to not count mail in ballots, do you think he said this to ensure fairness?

This guy is a reasonably intelligent, successful small business owner.

Seems fairly standard for a Trumper - run through a list of stock answers, then start throwing out insults when they've got nothing left.

That's a perfectly good reason why you limit your own freedom of speech and let those types shout everything else down.

Virtual737 wrote:

1.) Let's say there was voter fraud. What makes you say that it was done by only the Democrats and that every fraudulent vote was for them, with none for the Republicans?
2.) If the Dems pulled off such a massive fraud, why do you think it only harmed Trump and not the Senators or Representatives?

This makes me laugh the most. Like the new QAnon supporter Rep. from Georgia.... if there was massive voter fraud in Georgia to the point where the election needs to be turned over surely you should be handing in your resignation? Oh no, of course YOUR win was legitimate, just your opponents were fraudulent...

More chilling details slowly emerging about the insurrection...

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/01/16/poli ... index.html

One man from Alabama faces 17 criminal counts, largely for possession of multiple weapons, including a shotgun, a rifle, three pistols and 11 Molotov cocktails, as well as ammunition and shotgun shells without registration, according to an indictment.

After living in his truck in DC for about a week, the man parked it about a block from the Capitol on January 6, according to court documents. Police started searching the truck after spotting a firearm handle and found the weapons, as well as a stun gun, several machetes, a crossbow; several large-capacity ammunition-feeding devices; and hundreds of rounds of ammunition, according to a memorandum that prosecutors filed January 12 in support of his detention. Also in the truck: the handwritten note with Indiana Rep. Andre Carson's name and an added observation that he is "one of two Muslims in House of Reps."

The second man is alleged to have driven from Colorado to Washington, DC, a day before Trump's rally with more than 2,500 rounds of ammunition and an assault rifle. He is said to have texted acquaintances that he wanted to shoot or run over House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and shoot DC Mayor Muriel Bowser, according to court records.

Virtual737 wrote:

NYCVIE wrote:

Period. This is the cold hard truth. IMO this is what the majority of Republicans who objected did it for:

Indeed. A recent conversation between myself and a "colleague" went something like:

ME: So why do you think the election was a fraud?
HIM: It was obviously a fraud, you can't tell me it wasn't.
ME: I'm not trying to, I'm trying to understand what makes you so convinced,
HIM: Just everything about it. Everyone is calling it a fraud.
ME: (Tempted to question "everyone" but didn't) Can you give me one example of the more widespread fraud?
HIM: Half a million dead people voted (can't remember the exact number, but it was something like this).
ME: How do you know this?
HIM: Trump has the proof, it's obvious.
ME: Can you name a handful of them?
HIM: There's HALF A MILLION, not a handful!
ME: OK, so even easier to name just a few of them?
HIM: I tell you, we have the proof, and Trump will show it when a court is forced to listen.
ME: He's had more than 50 court cases already. Did he allege fraud in any of them or did he show any proof of where this half a million figure came from?
HIM: You're the same as all the f****** commies.

I wasn't able to ask some of my most quizzing of questions such as:

1.) Let's say there was voter fraud. What makes you say that it was done by only the Democrats and that every fraudulent vote was for them, with none for the Republicans?
2.) If the Dems pulled off such a massive fraud, why do you think it only harmed Trump and not the Senators or Representatives?
3.) In hindsight, was Trump's call for none of his followers to use mail in ballots a huge mistake?
4.) After telling his followers not to use mail in ballots, and then attempting to force States to not count mail in ballots, do you think he said this to ensure fairness?

This guy is a reasonably intelligent, successful small business owner.

Absolutely nuts. One of the joys of working from home is not getting dragged into any of thay nonsense for the time being. Have had the exact same conversation in other contexts though and it’s very unfortunate.

With Covid-19 and the riot in the US Capital building, the Inauguration of Biden and Harris is going to be a rather sad event. The Mall will be closed off, no grand scene of 100's of 1000's filling it in celebration of the transfer of power. No parties. None of the millions from the celebration for local businesses like hotels shut down out of fear and already reeling from 10 months of Coivd-19. The city is pretty much in lockdown, the area around the mall, the capital, White House and other adjacent government buildings put into a massive 'moat' of high fences and barriers, transit stops shuttered and bus routes kept out.to prevent any chance of violence. https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/an-in ... d=msedgdhp

NYCVIE wrote:

seb146 wrote:

I have a theory about these Republicans who defend and deflect from this attempted violent coup:

They do not want minorities and alternate voices to have a seat at the table.

Period. This is the cold hard truth. IMO this is what the majority of Republicans who objected did it for:
1) Create "election fraud"
2) Target allegations of election fraud in predominately black and brown communities (Atlanta, Detroit, Philadelphia, Milwaukee)
3) Object to certification (which obviously will have no bearing on the result)
3a) Using said objection, call for an election commission into "fraud"
4) Tighten voting restrictions as a result of "fraud"
5) Disenfranchise minority voters in urban areas to decrease Democratic turnout.
6) Win elections

Republicans know that on the Presidential level, and to an extent on the Senate level, they are really going to struggle going forward as demographics shift to denser, more multicultural urban areas. And if turnout in those areas continue to increase the Republicans will have a real problem on their hands across the country but particularly in traditionally red states like Georgia, North Carolina, Texas, etc. That's IMO why Republicans have focused their voter fraud allegations in cities with substantial multicultural populations. That's why they advocated to "stop the count" in Pennsylvania when the overwhelming majority of remaining votes were coming from Philadelphia. That's why they'll fight hard against any future for mail in voting in these places.

The only problem is Democrats never seem to do anything when they’re in power. That’s the main reason they lost the House in 2010 and Senate in 2014. Hopefully we’ll get more progressives in power to get stuff done but idk

SYRAVGEEK wrote:

NYCVIE wrote:

seb146 wrote:

I have a theory about these Republicans who defend and deflect from this attempted violent coup:

They do not want minorities and alternate voices to have a seat at the table.

Period. This is the cold hard truth. IMO this is what the majority of Republicans who objected did it for:
1) Create "election fraud"
2) Target allegations of election fraud in predominately black and brown communities (Atlanta, Detroit, Philadelphia, Milwaukee)
3) Object to certification (which obviously will have no bearing on the result)
3a) Using said objection, call for an election commission into "fraud"
4) Tighten voting restrictions as a result of "fraud"
5) Disenfranchise minority voters in urban areas to decrease Democratic turnout.
6) Win elections

Republicans know that on the Presidential level, and to an extent on the Senate level, they are really going to struggle going forward as demographics shift to denser, more multicultural urban areas. And if turnout in those areas continue to increase the Republicans will have a real problem on their hands across the country but particularly in traditionally red states like Georgia, North Carolina, Texas, etc. That's IMO why Republicans have focused their voter fraud allegations in cities with substantial multicultural populations. That's why they advocated to "stop the count" in Pennsylvania when the overwhelming majority of remaining votes were coming from Philadelphia. That's why they'll fight hard against any future for mail in voting in these places.

The only problem is Democrats never seem to do anything when they’re in power. That’s the main reason they lost the House in 2010 and Senate in 2014. Hopefully we’ll get more progressives in power to get stuff done but idk

One of the biggest reasons they lost those races is the right wing media went on an all out blitz about socialism and communism that Democrats were pushing on the country. Fear mongering. Then, when the budget went out of control and the debt ceiling had to be raised under Republican control, it was more "blame the party not in power" as Republicans always do.

SYRAVGEEK wrote:

NYCVIE wrote:

seb146 wrote:

I have a theory about these Republicans who defend and deflect from this attempted violent coup:

They do not want minorities and alternate voices to have a seat at the table.

Period. This is the cold hard truth. IMO this is what the majority of Republicans who objected did it for:
1) Create "election fraud"
2) Target allegations of election fraud in predominately black and brown communities (Atlanta, Detroit, Philadelphia, Milwaukee)
3) Object to certification (which obviously will have no bearing on the result)
3a) Using said objection, call for an election commission into "fraud"
4) Tighten voting restrictions as a result of "fraud"
5) Disenfranchise minority voters in urban areas to decrease Democratic turnout.
6) Win elections

Republicans know that on the Presidential level, and to an extent on the Senate level, they are really going to struggle going forward as demographics shift to denser, more multicultural urban areas. And if turnout in those areas continue to increase the Republicans will have a real problem on their hands across the country but particularly in traditionally red states like Georgia, North Carolina, Texas, etc. That's IMO why Republicans have focused their voter fraud allegations in cities with substantial multicultural populations. That's why they advocated to "stop the count" in Pennsylvania when the overwhelming majority of remaining votes were coming from Philadelphia. That's why they'll fight hard against any future for mail in voting in these places.

The only problem is Democrats never seem to do anything when they’re in power. That’s the main reason they lost the House in 2010 and Senate in 2014. Hopefully we’ll get more progressives in power to get stuff done but idk

Maybe more should get off their lazy butts and vote in mid terms then, plus the fact that the US system was founded on preventing change, certainly anything that would help anyone but the wealthy. Since the Founding Fathers were the ultimate elitists.

SYRAVGEEK wrote:

The only problem is Democrats never seem to do anything when they’re in power.

Is that idleness on the Democrat side or full spectrum sabotage from the "opposition"?

From abroad it looks very much like the GOP works with "our way or no way". they no longer are a loyal opposition force.

seb146 wrote:

SYRAVGEEK wrote:

One of the biggest reasons they lost those races is the right wing media went on an all out blitz about socialism and communism that Democrats were pushing on the country. Fear mongering.

So, according to right wing media, anyone whose political ideas have not made it as far to the right as Gengis Khan's is a commie or a socialist?

WIederling wrote:

SYRAVGEEK wrote:

The only problem is Democrats never seem to do anything when they’re in power.

Is that idleness on the Democrat side or full spectrum sabotage from the "opposition"?

From abroad it looks very much like the GOP works with "our way or no way". they no longer are a loyal opposition force.

It's both. The GOP lies and fear mongers but the Democrats' biggest problem is they have no backbone and they just cry that Trump and the Congressional Republicans are bad people. Like, ok that may be true but what are they going to do about it? Even after the election a lot of the House Dems were whining that they lost seats because they were tied to "radical left" policies. The real reason they lost seats is because they got tied to "radical left" policies (even when they didn't support them) and then they spent their entire campaigns trying to beg people to believe they weren't socialists. The Democrats have a real messaging problem. One thing about Republicans is they know how to sell you a message. How could you have lost seats because of "radical" policies when Republicans who are all the way on the right picked seats up?

It'll be interesting to see if the Dems use these next two years to actually make sweeping changes because they largely sailed into this election with Trump and the Republicans doing half of the work for them by being so unlikable and doing a terrible job. And even then they barely made it to control of the three chambers.

art wrote:

seb146 wrote:

SYRAVGEEK wrote:

One of the biggest reasons they lost those races is the right wing media went on an all out blitz about socialism and communism that Democrats were pushing on the country. Fear mongering.

So, according to right wing media, anyone whose political ideas have not made it as far to the right as Gengis Khan's is a commie or a socialist?

Yes, that's basically how the right wing media thinks '

The Dems did Obamacare, last time I checked that was still going on despite plenty of years where the GOP had some or all the power ?

art wrote:

seb146 wrote:

SYRAVGEEK wrote:

One of the biggest reasons they lost those races is the right wing media went on an all out blitz about socialism and communism that Democrats were pushing on the country. Fear mongering.

So, according to right wing media, anyone whose political ideas have not made it as far to the right as Gengis Khan's is a commie or a socialist?

Anyone who does not tow the party line is a socialist and a commie and cancel culture and hates. That is all that is really ever said inside the right wing echo chamber. No reason given. Just that "they hate therefore they are to be hated". Look how quickly the right wing echo chamber blamed "antifa" after their own failed violent coup. When things go south, they blame the socialist liberals who hate because Democrats are socialist and hate.

The right wing echo chamber interchanges the words "liberal" and "socialist" and "Democrat" and "communist" all the time.

NYCVIE wrote:

The Democrats have a real messaging problem.

One thing about Republicans is they know how to sell you a message.

How could you have lost seats because of "radical" policies when Republicans who are all the way on the right picked seats up?

Here your logical failure is rooted afaics.
Republicans sold "DEMS are commies" rather successfully.

Successful mostly due to them not having any qualms about spreading misinformation, lies and stories invented from whole cloth.

But at the core of a Democratic society is talking about a common reality described by objective information.
Ergo: The system is being destroyed by a Republican party that no longer is a loyal participant in the US Democracy.

This imu is not mendable.

Solution is comparable to getting a grip on alcoholism. Things could start to get better with a dive to the bottom.
( samples from other countries seem to indicate that destroying a working system
is magnitudes easier then resurrection or creating a new one.)

Now the threat of a US Capital like attack and riot has spread to all 50 states. Over 12 states have activated their National Guard units to protect their Capital buildings and grounds. The public is shut off from access to Capital buildings and grounds for the foreseeable future. Massive fencing and barriers are being put up. Some legislatures have suspended sessions this week. Many millions that states and cities don't have due to massively reduced tax revenues from Coivd-19 have to be spent on protection of government buildings. https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-usa- ... KKBN29M048

The irony is that this is happening the week of on Monday we have a National Holiday for Civil Rights leader Martin Luther King, Jr.and the Inauguration of a new President. We must get through this week without riots, without confrontations, figure out ways to deal with the 2-headed monster of right wing violent protests and Covid-19. It must include political leaders, social leaders, our law enforcement, the media and everyday people to work together to deal with our problems, not make them worse.

DC Metropolitan Police Officer Michael Fanone who was assaulted (but survived) tells CNN about what he went through:

Washington (CNN)As DC Metropolitan Police Officer Michael Fanone lay on the ground at the US Capitol building, stunned and injured, he knew a group of rioters were stripping him of his gear. They grabbed spare ammunition, ripped the police radio off his chest and even stole his badge.
Then, Fanone, who had just been Tasered several times in the back of the neck, heard something chilling that made him go into survival mode.
"Some guys started getting a hold of my gun and they were screaming out, 'Kill him with his own gun,'" said Fanone, who's been a police officer for almost two decades.

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/01/14/poli ... index.html

WIederling wrote:

NYCVIE wrote:

The Democrats have a real messaging problem.

One thing about Republicans is they know how to sell you a message.

How could you have lost seats because of "radical" policies when Republicans who are all the way on the right picked seats up?

Here your logical failure is rooted afaics.
Republicans sold "DEMS are commies" rather successfully.

Successful mostly due to them not having any qualms about spreading misinformation, lies and stories invented from whole cloth.

But at the core of a Democratic society is talking about a common reality described by objective information.
Ergo: The system is being destroyed by a Republican party that no longer is a loyal participant in the US Democracy.

This imu is not mendable.

Solution is comparable to getting a grip on alcoholism. Things could start to get better with a dive to the bottom.
( samples from other countries seem to indicate that destroying a working system
is magnitudes easier then resurrection or creating a new one.)

I did say at the beginning of my post that the GOP lies and fear mongers. It is what it is. So Democrats need to adapt to this reality and start going on the offense more rather than "going high".

According to US press agency, AP; Trumps's election campaign organisation was to a large part behind the capitol rally riots.

WASHINGTON (AP) — Members of President Donald Trump’s failed presidential campaign played key roles in orchestrating the Washington rally that spawned a deadly assault on the U.S. Capitol, according to an Associated Press review of records, undercutting claims the event was the brainchild of the president’s grassroots supporters.

A pro-Trump nonprofit group called Women for America First hosted the “Save America Rally” on Jan. 6 at the Ellipse, an oval-shaped, federally owned patch of land near the White House. But an attachment to the National Park Service public gathering permit granted to the group lists more than half a dozen people in staff positions for the event who just weeks earlier had been paid thousands of dollars by Trump’s 2020 reelection campaign. Other staff scheduled to be “on site” during the demonstration have close ties to the White House.

https://apnews.com/article/election-202 ... 52fec87e99

seb146 wrote:

luckyone wrote:

seb146 wrote:

Why is it that Republicans can make statements with zero proof and we are all supposed to believe it but a non-Republican makes a statement and it is sus?

Because in my opinion ANYONE who makes a statement like that should back it up.

It was literally linked. Go back and look. Also, REPUBLICAN conspiracy theorist Lauren Boebert tweeted Pelosi's whereabouts during the attempted coup

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/01/12/ ... ls-resign/

For the life of me, I do not understand why anyone would want to do that to another congress member regardless of what party he/she is from. This is sickening and disgusting! Boebert is from Colorado, and is a freshman congresswoman. She should know better. In my view, if the accusations are true, she should be kicked out of Congress.

AirframeAS wrote:

seb146 wrote:

luckyone wrote:

Because in my opinion ANYONE who makes a statement like that should back it up.

It was literally linked. Go back and look. Also, REPUBLICAN conspiracy theorist Lauren Boebert tweeted Pelosi's whereabouts during the attempted coup

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/01/12/ ... ls-resign/

For the life of me, I do not understand why anyone would want to do that to another congress member regardless of what party he/she is from. This is sickening and disgusting! Boebert is from Colorado, and is a freshman congresswoman. She should know better. In my view, if the accusations are true, she should be kicked out of Congress.

Boebert took several attempts to get a GED, married a pedophile, and her entire political career could be summed up with just the word "gun"

So while she should know better, it's quite possible that she doesn't even know how to spell the word better.

FGITD wrote:

AirframeAS wrote:

seb146 wrote:

It was literally linked. Go back and look. Also, REPUBLICAN conspiracy theorist Lauren Boebert tweeted Pelosi's whereabouts during the attempted coup

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/01/12/ ... ls-resign/

For the life of me, I do not understand why anyone would want to do that to another congress member regardless of what party he/she is from. This is sickening and disgusting! Boebert is from Colorado, and is a freshman congresswoman. She should know better. In my view, if the accusations are true, she should be kicked out of Congress.

Boebert took several attempts to get a GED, married a pedophile, and her entire political career could be summed up with just the word "gun"

So while she should know better, it's quite possible that she doesn't even know how to spell the word better.

Seems she ticks a lot of boxes for the Trump base.
If found guilty of helping to target Congress members being kicked out should be the start.
The end being, heard this before? 'Lock her up!'

GDB wrote:

FGITD wrote:

AirframeAS wrote:

For the life of me, I do not understand why anyone would want to do that to another congress member regardless of what party he/she is from. This is sickening and disgusting! Boebert is from Colorado, and is a freshman congresswoman. She should know better. In my view, if the accusations are true, she should be kicked out of Congress.

Boebert took several attempts to get a GED, married a pedophile, and her entire political career could be summed up with just the word "gun"

So while she should know better, it's quite possible that she doesn't even know how to spell the word better.

Seems she ticks a lot of boxes for the Trump base.
If found guilty of helping to target Congress members being kicked out should be the start.
The end being, heard this before? 'Lock her up!'

The State of Colorado, I can tell you, is not very happy with Boebert right now...and is very concerned about her current behavior.

NYCVIE wrote:

I did say at the beginning of my post that the GOP lies and fear mongers. It is what it is. So Democrats need to adapt to this reality and start going on the offense more rather than "going high".

You demand that Democrats emulate GOP behavior for being more successful vs. the GOP.

"GOP: Successful mostly due to them not having any qualms about spreading misinformation, lies and stories invented from whole cloth."

How is that going work its magic in a positive way?

GDB wrote:

FGITD wrote:

AirframeAS wrote:

For the life of me, I do not understand why anyone would want to do that to another congress member regardless of what party he/she is from. This is sickening and disgusting! Boebert is from Colorado, and is a freshman congresswoman. She should know better. In my view, if the accusations are true, she should be kicked out of Congress.

Boebert took several attempts to get a GED, married a pedophile, and her entire political career could be summed up with just the word "gun"

So while she should know better, it's quite possible that she doesn't even know how to spell the word better.

Seems she ticks a lot of boxes for the Trump base.
If found guilty of helping to target Congress members being kicked out should be the start.
The end being, heard this before? 'Lock her up!'

I go along with that, if what is reported is true.

If mob A is trying to find person B to do harm to that person and person C is trying to help the mob reach their target, I think that person C is guilty of seriously criminal activity.

WIederling wrote:

NYCVIE wrote:

I did say at the beginning of my post that the GOP lies and fear mongers. It is what it is. So Democrats need to adapt to this reality and start going on the offense more rather than "going high".

You demand that Democrats emulate GOP behavior for being more successful vs. the GOP.

"GOP: Successful mostly due to them not having any qualms about spreading misinformation, lies and stories invented from whole cloth."

How is that going work its magic in a positive way?

Maybe I'm not making myself clear. I never said EMULATE GOP behavior. I never said they need to lie. The GOP isn't successful because they lie, they're successful because they lie and do a good job of making you believe the lie. I'm simply saying the Democrats need to take control of the narrative. The "socialist/communist/radical left/party is being controlled by AOC" narrative is simply a creation of the Republicans. Yet the Democrats have allowed that to be their narrative and rather than seize control of the narrative and focus on what they plan to do for working families and the fact that Republicans haven't/don't want to do anything for working families they allow themselves to get pushed into a corner where the message becomes "No I'm not a socialist". They need to do a better job of putting out a message that actually inspires people to vote that explains what you ARE not what you AREN'T.

I think Biden and Harris did a relatively good job of this but still, don't allow yourself to be pushed into a corner of "No, we don't want to ban fracking," "No we don't want to defund the police," and "no we actually do believe in law and order." The fact that any of those questions made it to the debate stage is purely a result of Republicans controlling their narrative.

For example, I get that they wanted to move on from the first impeachment, but why didn't Biden press Trump on the fact that Trump was so scared to potentially run against him that he literally called a foreign country to ask them to help him out with opposition research and got caught? Biden is getting pressed on allegations that he's in bed with China while we have actual proof that Trump has nefarious connections to many people and places. Yet Trump skates by not having to answer for how he surrounded himself with the "best" people, many of whom ended up being federally indicted or were/are in prison! Take a look at Obama and Biden's performance in 2012 debates and you'll see what I mean about them controlling the narrative and not allowing themselves to be pushed into a corner.

"Take a look at Obama and Biden's performance in 2012 debates and you'll see what I mean about them controlling the narrative and not allowing themselves to be pushed into a corner."

the poisonous stuff is not introduced vie "debate".
it is a mud slinging fest that works its magic via a "trained to be unthinking, reflexive" crowd (about 1..2/3rd of the adult US population apparently.
Goebbels Meme: repeat a lie often enough and it turns true.
Do it fast, reptitive enough and nobody has a chance to counter before it has nested in recipient brains.

WIederling wrote:

NYCVIE wrote:

I did say at the beginning of my post that the GOP lies and fear mongers. It is what it is. So Democrats need to adapt to this reality and start going on the offense more rather than "going high".

You demand that Democrats emulate GOP behavior for being more successful vs. the GOP.

"GOP: Successful mostly due to them not having any qualms about spreading misinformation, lies and stories invented from whole cloth."

How is that going work its magic in a positive way?

Republicans got their base to attempt a violent coup and got their base to believe the election was a fraud. I don't think that will work with Democrats because we tend to ask questions and provide facts as we have been doing with the election results since November.

WIederling wrote:

"Take a look at Obama and Biden's performance in 2012 debates and you'll see what I mean about them controlling the narrative and not allowing themselves to be pushed into a corner."

the poisonous stuff is not introduced vie "debate".
it is a mud slinging fest that works its magic via a "trained to be unthinking, reflexive" crowd (about 1..2/3rd of the adult US population apparently.
Goebbels Meme: repeat a lie often enough and it turns true.
Do it fast, reptitive enough and nobody has a chance to counter before it has nested in recipient brains.

I feel like maybe you're intentionally missing what I'm trying to say. The debate was an example of a time when the Democrats did not allow their narrative and their message to be controlled by Republicans. Of course a debate is not the only place where this happens. Yes, you repeat a lie enough times and people believe it but at the end of the day the GOP has been engaging in these lies and character assasinations because they have no substance, no real plans that will help ordinary people. So you counter this by doing just that, clearly outlining what you plan to do for ordinary Americans. That's the prize and you keep your eye on it.

Politicians always lie, this isn't new. But the Democrats have become so focused on character, feeling, and optics that they lead with that rather than actual substance. Dems seem to rather whine about Republicans than do the work of putting forth inspiring candidates to defeat them. Mind you if the Democrats had done that from the start Trump never even would have been elected in the first place. But they ran with "Love Trump's Hate" and "Trump is a bad guy," etc. And those things are valid but what's the actual message there? The Republicans lied on Obama for all 8 years of his Presidency to the point where they tried to make you believe he wasn't even born in the US. Why do you think that failed?

The other issue is with midterms Democrats usually get smoked because turnout is low. So they have to go even further just to motivate people to vote in those elections at all. You don't do that by running on not being the other guy.

seb146 wrote:

WIederling wrote:

NYCVIE wrote:

I did say at the beginning of my post that the GOP lies and fear mongers. It is what it is. So Democrats need to adapt to this reality and start going on the offense more rather than "going high".

You demand that Democrats emulate GOP behavior for being more successful vs. the GOP.

"GOP: Successful mostly due to them not having any qualms about spreading misinformation, lies and stories invented from whole cloth."

How is that going work its magic in a positive way?

Republicans got their base to attempt a violent coup and got their base to believe the election was a fraud. I don't think that will work with Democrats because we tend to ask questions and provide facts as we have been doing with the election results since November.

Right. Of course the Democrats shouldn't make up conspiracy theories and run with that. But with this particular group of Republicans the damage was done as soon as Trump won the first time. It was always clear that if he didn't lose there was going to be this wacky nonsense about fraud. In fact what we're seeing now is probably the least bad it could have been. If the election had been close like they expected I think things would be way worse. So considering these people already were elected the best we can do is get them out as soon as possible. And we've seen that begin to happen with Trump out and the Senate majority lost.

seb146 wrote:

Republicans got their base to attempt a violent coup and got their base to believe the election was a fraud. I don't think that will work with Democrats because we tend to ask questions and provide facts as we have been doing with the election results since November.

Not accurate. MAGA did that. 45's base and the Q-anon/Parler crowd did that. Republicans are a group with an ideological conservatism WRT governance that we do not feel is ideal for the nation, and do in fact profoundly disagree with at times. That is not the same as the malignant fascist populism —amazing to believe that is literally a thing now— and willful bullshit harvesting 45 is spearheading.

Here is why that distinction is important. They just happened to draw the short straw and go first. There is nothing preventing that happening within the structure of the DNC or liberalism in general, save the fact that we are generally more aware of such things. And I am not even convinced that would be the case had 45 or someone like that happened to our team first.

NYCVIE wrote:

The other issue is with midterms Democrats usually get smoked because turnout is low. So they have to go even further just to motivate people to vote in those elections at all. You don't do that by running on not being the other guy.

No doubt. 2020 should have been a turkey shoot. That FL went the way it did is an absolute travesty. And while there is no doubt all the right players were in place to help out 45 with more than a little voter fraud, given the demographics, there was no excuse for 45 to have an actual presence, leave alone a win there.

We cannot say that we were not present for campaigning purposes either. But very likely, we were not nearly aggressive and/or combative enough. That the DNC right now is perceived as fractured and weak in the face of the Orange Shirts in markets like that is a problem that needs to be addressed head on and right now. We spent far too much capital and resources trying to reach out across the aisle, too much time trying to make nice with bullies and liars, when we should have been showing strength to those 45's cult tried so hard to intimidate. That needs to stop.

We need to make clear to our constituency that we will take a hard line and that we will not stop until this malignancy is stamped out for good. We need to do a much better job making it clear that our voters will not be left behind to live with their abusers. Cancer is not cured by inviting it over to dinner for a cordial chat.


Politics forbids admitting it. But if we are successful in this, there will not be a Republican in America that is not quietly thankful we took a stand here either.

NYCVIE wrote:

Right. Of course the Democrats shouldn't make up conspiracy theories and run with that. But with this particular group of Republicans the damage was done as soon as Trump won the first time. It was always clear that if he didn't lose there was going to be this wacky nonsense about fraud. In fact what we're seeing now is probably the least bad it could have been. If the election had been close like they expected I think things would be way worse. So considering these people already were elected the best we can do is get them out as soon as possible. And we've seen that begin to happen with Trump out and the Senate majority lost.

Especially about the conspiracy nonsense, yes. If anything, we need to mount an aggressive "Fact is not a swear word" campaign. It would be nice if we had half the control of the media they think we do. But what influence we do have, we need to start using; playing nice obviously is not working.

But first and foremost, it is time to make an example out of people who think the 1st amendment means things it clearly does not. It is well known that the everything from malicious gaslightng to downright violence the 45 crowd has a disproportionate penchant for is explicitly not protected. We need to not waste this opportunity to punish the hell out of that.

And that starts with the topic of this thread. These felonoius rioters need never experience a day of peace again. Nor access to forums supported by the FCC. There is nothing that says we need to allow them to endanger people's lives so they can peddle their ridiculous lies...

A Trump supporter interviewed this morning in a video shown on CNN (I was watching both Fox News and CNN so I'm pretty sure it was on the former) stated that:

All races have experienced slavery but the blacks are the only ones complaining about it.

I mean, how can you even begin to have discussion with that kind of.... ignorance?