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NIKV69
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Biden coronavirus relief package

Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:32 pm

Wow

https://news.yahoo.com/manchin-says-abs ... 49064.html

You all know I am a Manchin fan but I have to go against him here and at the same time probably for the only time agree with AOC so get a screenshot.

After the smoke clears and Trump is gone it's going to be Jan 21st. I have said the hill has to get to work and of course the first bill that hits Biden's desk should be Covid relief. It should be big and direct and for the life of me can't understand Manchin's opposition. AOC made the claim along the lines of get the money out now and worry later back in March and frankly I was shocked to see I agreed with her. The Covid pandemic is probably the only time I would think this way but it's we are in the middle of it and need something to make sure people and their businesses can survive through August or so when hopefully we pull out of it.

https://thehill.com/homenews/house/4888 ... -year-from

The economy needs help, I would also like to see some items in the bill such as rent relief restrictions so the checks are used in whole or in part to pay rent etc and not buy big screen TVs. Landlords like anyone else are feeling it and they too need help.



Again this is a surprise but I also get the feeling his vote won't matter because I am sure a GOP senator if not more will vote for this. It's needed and it's needed fast.

Discuss.
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flipdewaf
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Re: Biden coronavirus relief package

Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:49 pm

My bet is that Manchin is playing his cards as he knows that he is the ‘conservative’ Democrat and is making his position known that he needs to be taken notice of. I think It’s a power play and he knows he holds a lot of power when the house is as tight as it is.

Fred


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zippyjet
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Re: Biden coronavirus relief package

Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:57 pm

Your mouth to God's ears. And whenever this comes out, can Congress please refrain from porky programs such as Goat Clogging a USA Curling center/academy. Just some examples of frivolous spending. Maybe in better times health and economically. Have nothing against goats clogging and Curling is does a body good and enhances the mind.
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ArcticSEA
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Re: Biden coronavirus relief package

Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:20 am

There are rumors that Murkowski is going to leave the GOP and caucus with the Democrats as an independent. This is due in part to the issues we face now but also the how elections in Alaska are now being done.
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NIKV69
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Re: Biden coronavirus relief package

Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:30 am

flipdewaf wrote:
My bet is that Manchin is playing his cards as he knows that he is the ‘conservative’ Democrat and is making his position known that he needs to be taken notice of. I think It’s a power play and he knows he holds a lot of power when the house is as tight as it is.

Fred


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I thought that too but doesn't seem to be his style. He made his intentions clear in the Fox interview and progressives took notice. I just don't get him here. This should be the only 100-0 vote in the senate in the Biden administration. People need help and so do businesses if they are going to to salvage any of 2021.

zippyjet wrote:
Your mouth to God's ears. And whenever this comes out, can Congress please refrain from porky programs such as Goat Clogging a USA Curling center/academy. Just some examples of frivolous spending. Maybe in better times health and economically. Have nothing against goats clogging and Curling is does a body good and enhances the mind.


Yep this needs to be swift and stand alone.

ArcticSEA wrote:
There are rumors that Murkowski is going to leave the GOP and caucus with the Democrats as an independent. This is due in part to the issues we face now but also the how elections in Alaska are now being done.


Yea I saw that but she is going to hang back and see what develops in the Senate down the road. If she jumps ship and things get nutty she will lose that seat handily.
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ArcticSEA
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Re: Biden coronavirus relief package

Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:34 am

NIKV69 wrote:
Yea I saw that but she is going to hang back and see what develops in the Senate down the road. If she jumps ship and things get nutty she will lose that seat handily.

Really nutty?
You mean like storming the U.S. Capitol building by the thousands?
By seeking to overturn an election by decree?
By seeking to disenfranchise the votes of millions of your fellow Americans?
Sit the hell down.
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NIKV69
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Re: Biden coronavirus relief package

Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:25 am

ArcticSEA wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
Yea I saw that but she is going to hang back and see what develops in the Senate down the road. If she jumps ship and things get nutty she will lose that seat handily.

Really nutty?
You mean like storming the U.S. Capitol building by the thousands?
By seeking to overturn an election by decree?
By seeking to disenfranchise the votes of millions of your fellow Americans?
Sit the hell down.


Hey enjoy it, you have one more week or so using this for cover. After that we will need to see governing. Defunding the police, cows farting, socialized medical care is going to further divide the population. If Senator Murkowski goes Blue and the hill goes into full gridlock which may happen it will be tough for Alaska to stay blue if she flips.
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casinterest
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Re: Biden coronavirus relief package

Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:40 am

I already noted that Manchin will be a power player in this Senate.
However since WV is WV, he will have to cave when the real money is on the line.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
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seb146
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Re: Biden coronavirus relief package

Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:51 am

NIKV69 wrote:
Hey enjoy it, you have one more week or so using this for cover. After that we will need to see governing. Defunding the police, cows farting, socialized medical care is going to further divide the population. If Senator Murkowski goes Blue and the hill goes into full gridlock which may happen it will be tough for Alaska to stay blue if she flips.


This will be a talking point for at least two years. IF Hawley and Cruz remain defiant and do not resign, Democrats will keep this pressure of "traitors" and "insurrectionists" on Republicans for not punishing their own. Republicans will lose more seats in 2022 and probably lose the White House in 2024. Again. To Kamala Harris.

And, there YOU go again with "defund" which has not been a talking point for a very long time. Yet it remains in the right wing echo chamber. People understand that ACA is not the best but it can be better and Democrats are willing to make health care affordable. And some Republicans are willing to work to get this fixed. Not just taking away health care but making a better ACA.

I can see Romney and Murkowski forming a caucus that will eventually split from the MAGA Republicans. This will probably make a third party. Which will die out because "our MAGA king was stolen from us" and we are back here in 20 years. I can see Manchin defecting to this center right caucus with Murkowski, Romney, Sasse, Collins, and some from the House.
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NIKV69
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Re: Biden coronavirus relief package

Sat Jan 09, 2021 3:18 am

seb146 wrote:
This will be a talking point for at least two years. IF Hawley and Cruz remain defiant and do not resign, Democrats will keep this pressure of "traitors" and "insurrectionists" on Republicans for not punishing their own. Republicans will lose more seats in 2022 and probably lose the White House in 2024. Again. To Kamala Harris.

.


See? It's not about governing it's about demonizing. Let us not govern let us not pass meaningful legislation and call anyone that doesn't agree with us names. Any lawmaker that refuses to do their job and keep this smearing in the 24 hour news cycle are no better than the people they criticize they just operate behind a microphone.

You got your wish, now do your job. Trust me if you go into this "it's our way or the highway" thing the Republicans will gain seats in the house not lose them in two years. You took this attitude with Obama and thought you would have congress forever and then woke up on the day after the election in 2010 very unhappy.
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ArcticSEA
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Re: Biden coronavirus relief package

Sat Jan 09, 2021 3:21 am

NIKV69 wrote:
It's not about governing it's about demonizing.

Yeah, up until January 6, Republicans were very interested in "governing".
Give me a break. You're like a broken record.
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alfa164
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Re: Biden coronavirus relief package

Sat Jan 09, 2021 3:24 am

NIKV69 wrote:
ArcticSEA wrote:
There are rumors that Murkowski is going to leave the GOP and caucus with the Democrats as an independent. This is due in part to the issues we face now but also the how elections in Alaska are now being done.

Yea I saw that but she is going to hang back and see what develops in the Senate down the road. If she jumps ship and things get nutty she will lose that seat handily.


You clearly are not aware of the value the Murkowski name carries in Alaska. She could win a general election regardless of party; her only problems might be in a G.O.P. primary.
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ArcticSEA
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Re: Biden coronavirus relief package

Sat Jan 09, 2021 3:28 am

alfa164 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
ArcticSEA wrote:
There are rumors that Murkowski is going to leave the GOP and caucus with the Democrats as an independent. This is due in part to the issues we face now but also the how elections in Alaska are now being done.

Yea I saw that but she is going to hang back and see what develops in the Senate down the road. If she jumps ship and things get nutty she will lose that seat handily.


You clearly are not aware of the value the Murkowski name carries in Alaska. She could win a general election regardless of party; her only problems might be in a G.O.P. primary.

Indeed. She has previously ran as an independent and won.
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alfa164
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Re: Biden coronavirus relief package

Sat Jan 09, 2021 4:06 am

ArcticSEA wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
Yea I saw that but she is going to hang back and see what develops in the Senate down the road. If she jumps ship and things get nutty she will lose that seat handily.

You clearly are not aware of the value the Murkowski name carries in Alaska. She could win a general election regardless of party; her only problems might be in a G.O.P. primary.

Indeed. She has previously ran as an independent and won.


And it was as a write-in! That is almost unheard-of...
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NIKV69
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Re: Biden coronavirus relief package

Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:45 am

alfa164 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
ArcticSEA wrote:
There are rumors that Murkowski is going to leave the GOP and caucus with the Democrats as an independent. This is due in part to the issues we face now but also the how elections in Alaska are now being done.

Yea I saw that but she is going to hang back and see what develops in the Senate down the road. If she jumps ship and things get nutty she will lose that seat handily.


You clearly are not aware of the value the Murkowski name carries in Alaska. She could win a general election regardless of party; her only problems might be in a G.O.P. primary.


I am well aware of her pedigree in the state. Her voting record will be her voting record regardless.
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seb146
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Re: Biden coronavirus relief package

Sat Jan 09, 2021 4:25 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
This will be a talking point for at least two years. IF Hawley and Cruz remain defiant and do not resign, Democrats will keep this pressure of "traitors" and "insurrectionists" on Republicans for not punishing their own. Republicans will lose more seats in 2022 and probably lose the White House in 2024. Again. To Kamala Harris.

.


See? It's not about governing it's about demonizing.


Why is this now an issue? It has not been an issue when Republicans did it over the past 20 years. And those were based on lies and false equivalencies and not understanding words like "socialism" and "communism" and "crime" and so forth.

Five people died at the Capital as a result of MAGA lies. They MUST be held to account. Remember when three people died in Benghazi? Remember the Republican outrage over that? Hillary is unfit to be president because Benghazi. You yourself was one of the chorus saying this.

Just more "do as I say" from MAGAs...
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NIKV69
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Re: Biden coronavirus relief package

Sat Jan 09, 2021 4:57 pm

seb146 wrote:

Five people died at the Capital as a result of MAGA lies. They MUST be held to account. Remember when three people died in Benghazi? Remember the Republican outrage over that? Hillary is unfit to be president because Benghazi. You yourself was one of the chorus saying this.

Just more "do as I say" from MAGAs...


It was 4 people at Benghazi and yes people will be held to account. I would attempt to explain what it would mean to move forward but that is not what you are interested in but many more people are and the new congress will have to lead not demonize. Hopefully the sane members of the hill will step up.
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stratosphere
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Re: Biden coronavirus relief package

Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:45 am

seb146 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
This will be a talking point for at least two years. IF Hawley and Cruz remain defiant and do not resign, Democrats will keep this pressure of "traitors" and "insurrectionists" on Republicans for not punishing their own. Republicans will lose more seats in 2022 and probably lose the White House in 2024. Again. To Kamala Harris.

.


See? It's not about governing it's about demonizing.


Why is this now an issue? It has not been an issue when Republicans did it over the past 20 years. And those were based on lies and false equivalencies and not understanding words like "socialism" and "communism" and "crime" and so forth.

Five people died at the Capital as a result of MAGA lies. They MUST be held to account. Remember when three people died in Benghazi? Remember the Republican outrage over that? Hillary is unfit to be president because Benghazi. You yourself was one of the chorus saying this.

Just more "do as I say" from MAGAs...


I can promise you the people at the Capitol will be held accountable far more than what happened in Bengazi. They are going after all of them as they should. My rub is what happened this summer was let it burn mentality because we can't offend BLM and my opinion was 95% of BLM protesters (not the org) were peaceful. I think there were agitators that mixed in among them possibly right wing extremists. I feel in this instance too there were agitators and maybe some innocents got caught up in it but they all need to own it and they will all get caught at some point because they are going after them unlike the Portland Or and other cities that have burned during the summer. Protests are fine and legal once you start destroying property all bets are off I don't care if it's DC and the capitol or some other city and some poor souls business who had lost it all and had nothing to do with it.
 
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seb146
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Re: Biden coronavirus relief package

Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:13 am

NIKV69 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

Five people died at the Capital as a result of MAGA lies. They MUST be held to account. Remember when three people died in Benghazi? Remember the Republican outrage over that? Hillary is unfit to be president because Benghazi. You yourself was one of the chorus saying this.

Just more "do as I say" from MAGAs...


It was 4 people at Benghazi and yes people will be held to account. I would attempt to explain what it would mean to move forward but that is not what you are interested in but many more people are and the new congress will have to lead not demonize. Hopefully the sane members of the hill will step up.


"To move forward" must include treating these terrorists, ALL OF THEM, as traitors. That includes the likes of Cruz and Hannity as well as dear leader. And they MUST be demonized. They hate America. They showed that. They continue to show they hate America and the rule of law and the Constitution. If they are not punished as treasonous traitors should be, that means others in the future can get away with it.
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seb146
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Re: Biden coronavirus relief package

Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:16 am

stratosphere wrote:
seb146 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:

See? It's not about governing it's about demonizing.


Why is this now an issue? It has not been an issue when Republicans did it over the past 20 years. And those were based on lies and false equivalencies and not understanding words like "socialism" and "communism" and "crime" and so forth.

Five people died at the Capital as a result of MAGA lies. They MUST be held to account. Remember when three people died in Benghazi? Remember the Republican outrage over that? Hillary is unfit to be president because Benghazi. You yourself was one of the chorus saying this.

Just more "do as I say" from MAGAs...


I can promise you the people at the Capitol will be held accountable far more than what happened in Bengazi. They are going after all of them as they should. My rub is what happened this summer was let it burn mentality because we can't offend BLM and my opinion was 95% of BLM protesters (not the org) were peaceful. I think there were agitators that mixed in among them possibly right wing extremists. I feel in this instance too there were agitators and maybe some innocents got caught up in it but they all need to own it and they will all get caught at some point because they are going after them unlike the Portland Or and other cities that have burned during the summer. Protests are fine and legal once you start destroying property all bets are off I don't care if it's DC and the capitol or some other city and some poor souls business who had lost it all and had nothing to do with it.


Stop comparing BLM to this coup attempt. They are not even remotely the same. BLM is working for social justice and change. They want all Americans treated equally. This terrorist coup attempt was based on lies perpetuated by the right wing echo chamber and their leader. BLM wants all Americans treated equally, which means STOP SHOOTING UNARMED BLACK PEOPLE.

Notice, also, there were no water cannons or police in full riot gear gassing the mobs, no firing rubber bullets to move them out. Like at Standing Rock or for the MAGA photo op at the church.

Stop trying to tell us that BLM is the same as this attempted coup by violent terrorists. They are nowhere near the same.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
stratosphere
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Re: Biden coronavirus relief package

Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:45 am

seb146 wrote:
stratosphere wrote:
seb146 wrote:

Why is this now an issue? It has not been an issue when Republicans did it over the past 20 years. And those were based on lies and false equivalencies and not understanding words like "socialism" and "communism" and "crime" and so forth.

Five people died at the Capital as a result of MAGA lies. They MUST be held to account. Remember when three people died in Benghazi? Remember the Republican outrage over that? Hillary is unfit to be president because Benghazi. You yourself was one of the chorus saying this.

Just more "do as I say" from MAGAs...


I can promise you the people at the Capitol will be held accountable far more than what happened in Bengazi. They are going after all of them as they should. My rub is what happened this summer was let it burn mentality because we can't offend BLM and my opinion was 95% of BLM protesters (not the org) were peaceful. I think there were agitators that mixed in among them possibly right wing extremists. I feel in this instance too there were agitators and maybe some innocents got caught up in it but they all need to own it and they will all get caught at some point because they are going after them unlike the Portland Or and other cities that have burned during the summer. Protests are fine and legal once you start destroying property all bets are off I don't care if it's DC and the capitol or some other city and some poor souls business who had lost it all and had nothing to do with it.



Stop comparing BLM to this coup attempt. They are not even remotely the same. BLM is working for social justice and change. They want all Americans treated equally. This terrorist coup attempt was based on lies perpetuated by the right wing echo chamber and their leader. BLM wants all Americans treated equally, which means STOP SHOOTING UNARMED BLACK PEOPLE.

Notice, also, there were no water cannons or police in full riot gear gassing the mobs, no firing rubber bullets to move them out. Like at Standing Rock or for the MAGA photo op at the church.

Stop trying to tell us that BLM is the same as this attempted coup by violent terrorists. They are nowhere near the same.


See you are the problem with this mentality. My take is you can protest that is your right. Once you start destroying property all bets are off, I don't care if it's the capitol or someone's hard earned business it's all wrong. Stop trying to justify destruction because you think your cause is more noble.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Biden coronavirus relief package

Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:00 am

stratosphere wrote:
seb146 wrote:
stratosphere wrote:

I can promise you the people at the Capitol will be held accountable far more than what happened in Bengazi. They are going after all of them as they should. My rub is what happened this summer was let it burn mentality because we can't offend BLM and my opinion was 95% of BLM protesters (not the org) were peaceful. I think there were agitators that mixed in among them possibly right wing extremists. I feel in this instance too there were agitators and maybe some innocents got caught up in it but they all need to own it and they will all get caught at some point because they are going after them unlike the Portland Or and other cities that have burned during the summer. Protests are fine and legal once you start destroying property all bets are off I don't care if it's DC and the capitol or some other city and some poor souls business who had lost it all and had nothing to do with it.



Stop comparing BLM to this coup attempt. They are not even remotely the same. BLM is working for social justice and change. They want all Americans treated equally. This terrorist coup attempt was based on lies perpetuated by the right wing echo chamber and their leader. BLM wants all Americans treated equally, which means STOP SHOOTING UNARMED BLACK PEOPLE.

Notice, also, there were no water cannons or police in full riot gear gassing the mobs, no firing rubber bullets to move them out. Like at Standing Rock or for the MAGA photo op at the church.

Stop trying to tell us that BLM is the same as this attempted coup by violent terrorists. They are nowhere near the same.


See you are the problem with this mentality. My take is you can protest that is your right. Once you start destroying property all bets are off, I don't care if it's the capitol or someone's hard earned business it's all wrong. Stop trying to justify destruction because you think your cause is more noble.


Not everyone has that mentality - many of us sympathetic to BLM have always been clear that property damage is property damage and is always criminal. My problem with the left is conflating economic Trump supporters with crazy personality cult Trump supporters. My problem with the right is conflating protesters seeking correction of LE wrongs with anarchist/arsonist rioters. The ones seeking violence in both incidences are nihilist a-holes who relish the times when they have a chance to run into the fray and get their adrenaline jollies. Can we agree on that?
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stratosphere
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Re: Biden coronavirus relief package

Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:26 am

Aaron747 wrote:
stratosphere wrote:
seb146 wrote:


Stop comparing BLM to this coup attempt. They are not even remotely the same. BLM is working for social justice and change. They want all Americans treated equally. This terrorist coup attempt was based on lies perpetuated by the right wing echo chamber and their leader. BLM wants all Americans treated equally, which means STOP SHOOTING UNARMED BLACK PEOPLE.

Notice, also, there were no water cannons or police in full riot gear gassing the mobs, no firing rubber bullets to move them out. Like at Standing Rock or for the MAGA photo op at the church.

Stop trying to tell us that BLM is the same as this attempted coup by violent terrorists. They are nowhere near the same.


See you are the problem with this mentality. My take is you can protest that is your right. Once you start destroying property all bets are off, I don't care if it's the capitol or someone's hard earned business it's all wrong. Stop trying to justify destruction because you think your cause is more noble.


Not everyone has that mentality - many of us sympathetic to BLM have always been clear that property damage is property damage and is always criminal. My problem with the left is conflating economic Trump supporters with crazy personality cult Trump supporters. My problem with the right is conflating protesters seeking correction of LE wrongs with anarchist/arsonist rioters. The ones seeking violence in both incidences are nihilist a-holes who relish the times when they have a chance to run into the fray and get their adrenaline jollies. Can we agree on that?


Agreed. However, there are passions on both sides for their positions. I always said LE reforms are needed BAD. But I stand by my statement once you start tearing shit up your position is moot. It ruins any chance you had at trying to get people on your side.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Biden coronavirus relief package

Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:43 am

stratosphere wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
stratosphere wrote:

See you are the problem with this mentality. My take is you can protest that is your right. Once you start destroying property all bets are off, I don't care if it's the capitol or someone's hard earned business it's all wrong. Stop trying to justify destruction because you think your cause is more noble.


Not everyone has that mentality - many of us sympathetic to BLM have always been clear that property damage is property damage and is always criminal. My problem with the left is conflating economic Trump supporters with crazy personality cult Trump supporters. My problem with the right is conflating protesters seeking correction of LE wrongs with anarchist/arsonist rioters. The ones seeking violence in both incidences are nihilist a-holes who relish the times when they have a chance to run into the fray and get their adrenaline jollies. Can we agree on that?


Agreed. However, there are passions on both sides for their positions. I always said LE reforms are needed BAD. But I stand by my statement once you start tearing shit up your position is moot. It ruins any chance you had at trying to get people on your side.


Yes but that view is not very nuanced. We have no evidence the protesters put down their signs en masse and suddenly became arsonists at sundown. Occam’s razor says it’s far more likely that anarchists were in the mix waiting for their moments, with zero interest in the actual protest. I have seen this phenomenon myself at numerous protests. You are tarring the whole thing based on what are likely unrelated persons.
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scottyraven
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Re: Biden coronavirus relief package

Sun Jan 10, 2021 6:44 am

NIKV69 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

Five people died at the Capital as a result of MAGA lies. They MUST be held to account. Remember when three people died in Benghazi? Remember the Republican outrage over that? Hillary is unfit to be president because Benghazi. You yourself was one of the chorus saying this.

Just more "do as I say" from MAGAs...


It was 4 people at Benghazi and yes people will be held to account. I would attempt to explain what it would mean to move forward but that is not what you are interested in but many more people are and the new congress will have to lead not demonize. Hopefully the sane members of the hill will step up.

do you think that we can just move forward after the MAGA insurrection? there must be consequences first, then there can be a reconciliation. if there are no punishments for those that did this and those that incited and encouraged this act, then next time it will just be worse.
 
NIKV69
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Re: Biden coronavirus relief package

Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:45 am

I am going to try to get back on topic with Biden's plan that he will unveil next week.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa- ... SKBN29D2PQ

Price tag seems a little high and I don't know why he has to put the minimum wage thing in I mean I know why but for Pete's sake concentrate on the Stimulus and get something that can pass already. I don't mind the $2000 checks but I would imagine there will have to be some horse trading to get Manchin on board. He is going to be on State of the union in the morning I am going to check out what he has to say.
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LNCS0930
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Re: Biden coronavirus relief package

Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:02 pm

seb146 wrote:
stratosphere wrote:
seb146 wrote:

Why is this now an issue? It has not been an issue when Republicans did it over the past 20 years. And those were based on lies and false equivalencies and not understanding words like "socialism" and "communism" and "crime" and so forth.

Five people died at the Capital as a result of MAGA lies. They MUST be held to account. Remember when three people died in Benghazi? Remember the Republican outrage over that? Hillary is unfit to be president because Benghazi. You yourself was one of the chorus saying this.

Just more "do as I say" from MAGAs...


I can promise you the people at the Capitol will be held accountable far more than what happened in Bengazi. They are going after all of them as they should. My rub is what happened this summer was let it burn mentality because we can't offend BLM and my opinion was 95% of BLM protesters (not the org) were peaceful. I think there were agitators that mixed in among them possibly right wing extremists. I feel in this instance too there were agitators and maybe some innocents got caught up in it but they all need to own it and they will all get caught at some point because they are going after them unlike the Portland Or and other cities that have burned during the summer. Protests are fine and legal once you start destroying property all bets are off I don't care if it's DC and the capitol or some other city and some poor souls business who had lost it all and had nothing to do with it.


Stop comparing BLM to this coup attempt. They are not even remotely the same. BLM is working for social justice and change. They want all Americans treated equally. This terrorist coup attempt was based on lies perpetuated by the right wing echo chamber and their leader. BLM wants all Americans treated equally, which means STOP SHOOTING UNARMED BLACK PEOPLE.

Notice, also, there were no water cannons or police in full riot gear gassing the mobs, no firing rubber bullets to move them out. Like at Standing Rock or for the MAGA photo op at the church.

Stop trying to tell us that BLM is the same as this attempted coup by violent terrorists. They are nowhere near the same.


BLM IMO is worse. It was a bunch of young deranged whites burning things down over a false narrative that we have a socially injust society despite the fact we had a black President...yeah...sure..BS
 
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seb146
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Re: Biden coronavirus relief package

Sun Jan 10, 2021 5:16 pm

LNCS0930 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
stratosphere wrote:

I can promise you the people at the Capitol will be held accountable far more than what happened in Bengazi. They are going after all of them as they should. My rub is what happened this summer was let it burn mentality because we can't offend BLM and my opinion was 95% of BLM protesters (not the org) were peaceful. I think there were agitators that mixed in among them possibly right wing extremists. I feel in this instance too there were agitators and maybe some innocents got caught up in it but they all need to own it and they will all get caught at some point because they are going after them unlike the Portland Or and other cities that have burned during the summer. Protests are fine and legal once you start destroying property all bets are off I don't care if it's DC and the capitol or some other city and some poor souls business who had lost it all and had nothing to do with it.


Stop comparing BLM to this coup attempt. They are not even remotely the same. BLM is working for social justice and change. They want all Americans treated equally. This terrorist coup attempt was based on lies perpetuated by the right wing echo chamber and their leader. BLM wants all Americans treated equally, which means STOP SHOOTING UNARMED BLACK PEOPLE.

Notice, also, there were no water cannons or police in full riot gear gassing the mobs, no firing rubber bullets to move them out. Like at Standing Rock or for the MAGA photo op at the church.

Stop trying to tell us that BLM is the same as this attempted coup by violent terrorists. They are nowhere near the same.


BLM IMO is worse. It was a bunch of young deranged whites burning things down over a false narrative that we have a socially injust society despite the fact we had a black President...yeah...sure..BS


That's like saying "The Arctic Ocean is cold so I have a job!"
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LMP737
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Re: Biden coronavirus relief package

Tue Jan 12, 2021 4:37 pm

stratosphere wrote:

I can promise you the people at the Capitol will be held accountable far more than what happened in Bengazi. .


The only reason you care about what happened in Benghazi is because Hillary Clinton was Secretary of State.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
NIKV69
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Re: Biden coronavirus relief package

Fri Jan 15, 2021 8:12 am

Biden unveiled his stimulus today.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/biden-a ... d=75254024

I like it though the national minimum wage has no business being in there and probably was thrown in to pacify the progressive wing of the party. Biden wants this to pass congress with bi-partisan support which is an olive branch but to get 10 votes from the GOP it could be tough. I am curious to hear Manchin's take since if they abandon the bi-partisan route they will need Manchin on board to to get to 50 votes to get it to reconciliation and then Biden's desk.

Going to be interesting to see how congress receives this.
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flyguy89
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Re: Biden coronavirus relief package

Fri Jan 15, 2021 8:37 am

NIKV69 wrote:
the national minimum wage has no business being in there

Agreed. The absolute last thing struggling small businesses need at this time. Hopefully it gets tossed quickly. I’ll be interested to hear more on the money earmarked for states. I’m fine if it’s dollars to help offset costs for testing, contact tracing, etc. but if it’s just going to be a slush fund for fiscally irresponsible states it should be tossed.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Biden coronavirus relief package

Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:26 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
the national minimum wage has no business being in there

Agreed. The absolute last thing struggling small businesses need at this time. Hopefully it gets tossed quickly. I’ll be interested to hear more on the money earmarked for states. I’m fine if it’s dollars to help offset costs for testing, contact tracing, etc. but if it’s just going to be a slush fund for fiscally irresponsible states it should be tossed.



The minimum wage raise is a way to try to get more people out of the basement where the government is already supporting them with tax dollars. I think at the end of the day, the federal minimum wage should be indexed every two years. .
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Biden coronavirus relief package

Fri Jan 15, 2021 6:34 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
I’m fine if it’s dollars to help offset costs for testing, contact tracing, etc.


CDC already has an annual budget of $11.9 Billion. They can do a lot of tracing.
All posts are just opinions.
 
NYCVIE
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Re: Biden coronavirus relief package

Fri Jan 15, 2021 6:43 pm

I think it's a big mistake for Biden to push for $1400 instead of $2000. While technically the total stimulus is $2000, people were clearly under the impression that they were getting a standalone check of $2000. Ossoff and Warnock both ran on a $2000 check. Hopefully they and other members of Congress can push for more. IMO it should be recurring and retroactive checks but $2000 should be the bare minimum.

LNCS0930 wrote:

BLM IMO is worse. It was a bunch of young deranged whites burning things down over a false narrative that we have a socially injust society despite the fact we had a black President...yeah...sure..BS


Yikes...

stratosphere wrote:
Agreed. However, there are passions on both sides for their positions. I always said LE reforms are needed BAD. But I stand by my statement once you start tearing shit up your position is moot. It ruins any chance you had at trying to get people on your side.

Maybe this isn't the thread for this but I think it's worth unpacking the "both sides" argument. No, I don't support burning anything down and anyone caught doing that should face the law, but it's a false equivalence between BLM and the Capitol.

What happened at the Capitol was actual terrorism. People who went to commit violent acts with political goals to overturn a democratic election - the cherry on top that they were egged on by the highest public official in the world and others. And allegedly they received support and assistance from those in government and law enforcement to do so. There is no equivalent movement on the left - no direct political motivations and no cohesive organization. The Capitol, the kidnapping plot against Whitmer, and the intrusion of state buildings in the Spring against lockdowns is very different than Black Lives Matter protests. If you ask these people why they did what they did it was conclusively with political motivations.
 
NYCVIE
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Re: Biden coronavirus relief package

Fri Jan 15, 2021 6:46 pm

casinterest wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
the national minimum wage has no business being in there

Agreed. The absolute last thing struggling small businesses need at this time. Hopefully it gets tossed quickly. I’ll be interested to hear more on the money earmarked for states. I’m fine if it’s dollars to help offset costs for testing, contact tracing, etc. but if it’s just going to be a slush fund for fiscally irresponsible states it should be tossed.



The minimum wage raise is a way to try to get more people out of the basement where the government is already supporting them with tax dollars. I think at the end of the day, the federal minimum wage should be indexed every two years. .


Agreed. I saw a post on Twitter with someone saying they make $18 an hour and are barely getting by so they were saying minimum wage shouldn't be raised to $15. I was thinking.... if you're barely getting by how do you think people who are actually making minimum wage are doing?

It's always interesting when people who aren't making minimum wage have such a strong opinion on why people who are shouldn't get more. To live in America....
 
FGITD
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Re: Biden coronavirus relief package

Fri Jan 15, 2021 7:13 pm

NYCVIE wrote:

It's always interesting when people who aren't making minimum wage have such a strong opinion on why people who are shouldn't get more. To live in America....


Unfortunately the preferred line of thought in the US these days seems to be that you need to pull the ladder up behind you, then criticize those behind for making a big deal of it. Call them lazy, talk about how hard it was to climb the ladder, even go so far as to claim you didn’t even have the ladder
 
flyguy89
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Re: Biden coronavirus relief package

Fri Jan 15, 2021 7:19 pm

casinterest wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
the national minimum wage has no business being in there

Agreed. The absolute last thing struggling small businesses need at this time. Hopefully it gets tossed quickly. I’ll be interested to hear more on the money earmarked for states. I’m fine if it’s dollars to help offset costs for testing, contact tracing, etc. but if it’s just going to be a slush fund for fiscally irresponsible states it should be tossed.



The minimum wage raise is a way to try to get more people out of the basement where the government is already supporting them with tax dollars. I think at the end of the day, the federal minimum wage should be indexed every two years. .

It doesn’t help anyone get out of the basement if their employer is put out of business or lays people off/reduces hours. A national minimum wage hike to $15 would be terrible policy, particularly at a time when it’s specifically so many small/independent businesses on the brink. A $15/hour wage in LA entirely different from a $15/hour wage in Beckley, WV. Minimum wage policy should continue to be driven by the individual states.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Biden coronavirus relief package

Fri Jan 15, 2021 7:33 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
Agreed. The absolute last thing struggling small businesses need at this time. Hopefully it gets tossed quickly. I’ll be interested to hear more on the money earmarked for states. I’m fine if it’s dollars to help offset costs for testing, contact tracing, etc. but if it’s just going to be a slush fund for fiscally irresponsible states it should be tossed.



The minimum wage raise is a way to try to get more people out of the basement where the government is already supporting them with tax dollars. I think at the end of the day, the federal minimum wage should be indexed every two years. .

It doesn’t help anyone get out of the basement if their employer is put out of business or lays people off/reduces hours. A national minimum wage hike to $15 would be terrible policy, particularly at a time when it’s specifically so many small/independent businesses on the brink. A $15/hour wage in LA entirely different from a $15/hour wage in Beckley, WV. Minimum wage policy should continue to be driven by the individual states.



True that Beckley is different from LA, but the Department of Health and Human Services sets the Poverty Level at 26,200 dollars which is around 12.60 an hour.
What good are we doing nationally paying people 7.25 as minimum wage?

Sure it works for kids that live with their parents, but how are those kids going to be independent?

We as a country keep increasing the cost of everything with inflation, and money flow. We need to increase the minimum wage as well.

As I said, we need to keep indexing it. Many of the folks that barely survive either lack the skills or training necessary to move into more advanced roles.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
flyguy89
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Re: Biden coronavirus relief package

Fri Jan 15, 2021 7:34 pm

FGITD wrote:
NYCVIE wrote:

It's always interesting when people who aren't making minimum wage have such a strong opinion on why people who are shouldn't get more. To live in America....


Unfortunately the preferred line of thought in the US these days seems to be that you need to pull the ladder up behind you, then criticize those behind for making a big deal of it. Call them lazy, talk about how hard it was to climb the ladder, even go so far as to claim you didn’t even have the ladder

Talk about pull the ladder up. Minimum wage positions by and large continue to be entry level/gateway jobs for new or less-skilled workers. In the US, the number of people working exclusively at minimum wage is a small percentage of the labor force as the vast majority of workers move on or up to better-paying positions. Raise the cost to hire someone significantly? All you’re doing is further restricting access to work or applying selective pressure on businesses to automate. I’ve never understood the mentality from some that it’s better for a person to have no job at all than to have a disfavored job.
 
flyguy89
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Re: Biden coronavirus relief package

Fri Jan 15, 2021 7:41 pm

casinterest wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
casinterest wrote:


The minimum wage raise is a way to try to get more people out of the basement where the government is already supporting them with tax dollars. I think at the end of the day, the federal minimum wage should be indexed every two years. .

It doesn’t help anyone get out of the basement if their employer is put out of business or lays people off/reduces hours. A national minimum wage hike to $15 would be terrible policy, particularly at a time when it’s specifically so many small/independent businesses on the brink. A $15/hour wage in LA entirely different from a $15/hour wage in Beckley, WV. Minimum wage policy should continue to be driven by the individual states.



True that Beckley is different from LA, but the Department of Health and Human Services sets the Poverty Level at 26,200 dollars which is around 12.60 an hour.
What good are we doing nationally paying people 7.25 as minimum wage?

Sure it works for kids that live with their parents, but how are those kids going to be independent?

We as a country keep increasing the cost of everything with inflation, and money flow. We need to increase the minimum wage as well.

As I said, we need to keep indexing it. Many of the folks that barely survive either lack the skills or training necessary to move into more advanced roles.

Indexing it on a nation-wide basis is just poor policy however. Alabama is, generally speaking, a much poorer state than California. Yet adjusting for cost of living and purchasing power, California has the highest poverty rate in the nation. These decisions should be given as much leeway as possible to account for local/regional economic realities.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Biden coronavirus relief package

Fri Jan 15, 2021 7:44 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
It doesn’t help anyone get out of the basement if their employer is put out of business or lays people off/reduces hours. A national minimum wage hike to $15 would be terrible policy, particularly at a time when it’s specifically so many small/independent businesses on the brink. A $15/hour wage in LA entirely different from a $15/hour wage in Beckley, WV. Minimum wage policy should continue to be driven by the individual states.



True that Beckley is different from LA, but the Department of Health and Human Services sets the Poverty Level at 26,200 dollars which is around 12.60 an hour.
What good are we doing nationally paying people 7.25 as minimum wage?

Sure it works for kids that live with their parents, but how are those kids going to be independent?

We as a country keep increasing the cost of everything with inflation, and money flow. We need to increase the minimum wage as well.

As I said, we need to keep indexing it. Many of the folks that barely survive either lack the skills or training necessary to move into more advanced roles.

Indexing it on a nation-wide basis is just poor policy however. Alabama is, generally speaking, a much poorer state than California. Yet adjusting for cost of living and purchasing power, California has the highest poverty rate in the nation. These decisions should be given as much leeway as possible to account for local/regional economic realities.


Yes, but having a FEDERAL Minimum wage means that there is a level at which the Federal Government beleives all citizens should be at based on the "Federal Poverty Level". Individual states can have higher wages as necessary, but how much good is it to keep the Federal level so low, when it hurts NY, California, Hawaii, and citizens that live near expensive cities throughout the country?
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
Dieuwer
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Re: Biden coronavirus relief package

Fri Jan 15, 2021 7:47 pm

Not sure why being "poor" is always blamed on "wages too low". Perhaps the cost of living is just too high?
Perhaps rents are too high because there is not enough supply of affordable housing? Perhaps food is expensive because not enough food is produced? Perhaps college is expensive because colleges have too many "administrators" employed and want to build and maintain fancy sports stadiums?

You can raise the minimum wage as high as you want, but if 10 families are looking to rent a home and only 9 homes are available, 1 family will stay on the street no matter what. Address the supply side first, then talk about other stuff.
 
flyguy89
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Re: Biden coronavirus relief package

Fri Jan 15, 2021 7:59 pm

casinterest wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
casinterest wrote:


True that Beckley is different from LA, but the Department of Health and Human Services sets the Poverty Level at 26,200 dollars which is around 12.60 an hour.
What good are we doing nationally paying people 7.25 as minimum wage?

Sure it works for kids that live with their parents, but how are those kids going to be independent?

We as a country keep increasing the cost of everything with inflation, and money flow. We need to increase the minimum wage as well.

As I said, we need to keep indexing it. Many of the folks that barely survive either lack the skills or training necessary to move into more advanced roles.

Indexing it on a nation-wide basis is just poor policy however. Alabama is, generally speaking, a much poorer state than California. Yet adjusting for cost of living and purchasing power, California has the highest poverty rate in the nation. These decisions should be given as much leeway as possible to account for local/regional economic realities.


Yes, but having a FEDERAL Minimum wage means that there is a level at which the Federal Government beleives all citizens should be at based on the "Federal Poverty Level". Individual states can have higher wages as necessary, but how much good is it to keep the Federal level so low, when it hurts NY, California, Hawaii, and citizens that live near expensive cities throughout the country?

I guess I’m not seeing how it hurts states like New York and California when they can and have raised their minimum wage far above the federal level.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Biden coronavirus relief package

Fri Jan 15, 2021 8:05 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
Indexing it on a nation-wide basis is just poor policy however. Alabama is, generally speaking, a much poorer state than California. Yet adjusting for cost of living and purchasing power, California has the highest poverty rate in the nation. These decisions should be given as much leeway as possible to account for local/regional economic realities.


Yes, but having a FEDERAL Minimum wage means that there is a level at which the Federal Government beleives all citizens should be at based on the "Federal Poverty Level". Individual states can have higher wages as necessary, but how much good is it to keep the Federal level so low, when it hurts NY, California, Hawaii, and citizens that live near expensive cities throughout the country?

I guess I’m not seeing how it hurts states like New York and California when they can and have raised their minimum wage far above the federal level.



Because left to themselves, some states continue to bleed talent and taxpayers to other states and cities due to the lack of infrastructure, because low wages also means low taxes, and less money for infrastructure to bring in jobs and talent.

Increasing the Federal minimum wage helps those short sighted states by increasing their tax revenue.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
NIKV69
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Re: Biden coronavirus relief package

Fri Jan 15, 2021 8:15 pm

Raising the minimum wage is also going to hurt in the way that small businesses and fast food will move forward with doing more with less help and using kiosks. Once that happens you will lose jobs in those areas. Fast Food is not a 40k a year job. Now that we are close to Trump leaving the media won't ask any law maker where they stand on it so we are going to have to wait till next week but I think Biden should haven't put this in.
90 Day Fiancé has taught me that Russian woman are excellent.
 
flyguy89
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Re: Biden coronavirus relief package

Fri Jan 15, 2021 8:25 pm

casinterest wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
casinterest wrote:

Yes, but having a FEDERAL Minimum wage means that there is a level at which the Federal Government beleives all citizens should be at based on the "Federal Poverty Level". Individual states can have higher wages as necessary, but how much good is it to keep the Federal level so low, when it hurts NY, California, Hawaii, and citizens that live near expensive cities throughout the country?

I guess I’m not seeing how it hurts states like New York and California when they can and have raised their minimum wage far above the federal level.



Because left to themselves, some states continue to bleed talent and taxpayers to other states and cities due to the lack of infrastructure, because low wages also means low taxes, and less money for infrastructure to bring in jobs and talent.

Increasing the Federal minimum wage helps those short sighted states by increasing their tax revenue.

That’s broadly not the case however. Many of the fastest growing states in the US (Texas, North Carolina, Tennessee, Florida, etc.) have either low or no state minimum yet have no issues attracting talent and supporting good infrastructure.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Biden coronavirus relief package

Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:09 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
I guess I’m not seeing how it hurts states like New York and California when they can and have raised their minimum wage far above the federal level.



Because left to themselves, some states continue to bleed talent and taxpayers to other states and cities due to the lack of infrastructure, because low wages also means low taxes, and less money for infrastructure to bring in jobs and talent.

Increasing the Federal minimum wage helps those short sighted states by increasing their tax revenue.

That’s broadly not the case however. Many of the fastest growing states in the US (Texas, North Carolina, Tennessee, Florida, etc.) have either low or no state minimum yet have no issues attracting talent and supporting good infrastructure.



Yet they do. Case in Point, Florida voters just approved 15 dollar minimum wage.

All of the states you mentioned have an above average number of people living below the poverty level.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U ... verty_rate

They are all growing well, but mostly in the cities, where there are jobs.

Texas has high property taxes to offset low income taxes. Florida has high hotel occupancy taxes(toursim) to offset no state income taxes.

Each state is definitely different in how they collect a and allocate funds, but for the most part with people below poverty levels, what good are we doing to pay below level wages just to pay other people's tax money to support those folks?
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
flyguy89
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Re: Biden coronavirus relief package

Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:41 pm

casinterest wrote:
Yet they do. Case in Point, Florida voters just approved 15 dollar minimum wage.

Yet the point was they had no issues attracting people/talent and supporting infrastructure through present.

casinterest wrote:
All of the states you mentioned have an above average number of people living below the poverty level.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U ... verty_rate

All except for Florida are actually below the US average when using the more accurate supplemental poverty measure which does take into account variations in cost-of-living and purchasing power:

https://calbudgetcenter.org/wp-content/ ... States.png

casinterest wrote:
Each state is definitely different in how they collect a and allocate funds, but for the most part with people below poverty levels, what good are we doing to pay below level wages just to pay other people's tax money to support those folks?

These are important distinctions to acknowledge because in some states/regions, forcing a $15/hour wage floor blows past what could be needed to lift some out of poverty and will undoubtedly end up being detrimental instead of helpful. An independent retail store in LA paying a $15/hour minimum wage is a lot more doable than one located in Dothan, Georgia where a dollar carries greater value and cost.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Biden coronavirus relief package

Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:53 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Yet they do. Case in Point, Florida voters just approved 15 dollar minimum wage.

Yet the point was they had no issues attracting people/talent and supporting infrastructure through present.

casinterest wrote:
All of the states you mentioned have an above average number of people living below the poverty level.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U ... verty_rate

All except for Florida are actually below the US average when using the more accurate supplemental poverty measure which does take into account variations in cost-of-living and purchasing power:

https://calbudgetcenter.org/wp-content/ ... States.png

casinterest wrote:
Each state is definitely different in how they collect a and allocate funds, but for the most part with people below poverty levels, what good are we doing to pay below level wages just to pay other people's tax money to support those folks?

These are important distinctions to acknowledge because in some states/regions, forcing a $15/hour wage floor blows past what could be needed to lift some out of poverty and will undoubtedly end up being detrimental instead of helpful. An independent retail store in LA paying a $15/hour minimum wage is a lot more doable than one located in Dothan, Georgia where a dollar carries greater value and cost.



So what is the difference today at 7.25 between Dothan and LA?
There isn't one.

7.25 was set in 2009. The current idea is to get to 15 dollars an hour by 2024, which all things considered is about than a 5% cost of living average per year. We need to do it, especially since we are going to head towards some high inflation soon.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
flyguy89
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Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

Re: Biden coronavirus relief package

Sat Jan 16, 2021 12:37 am

casinterest wrote:
So what is the difference today at 7.25 between Dothan and LA?
There isn't one.

Certainly $7.25/hour wage in Dothan today has a substantially greater value than $7.25/hour in LA.

casinterest wrote:
7.25 was set in 2009. The current idea is to get to 15 dollars an hour by 2024

This is the other thing I find curious is the fact that it’s being raised over a 4-5 year span is a tacit admission of its negative effects...this way they can be obfuscated by time and inflation. If it’s such a pivotal solution and driver of economic equality, why wait years to step it up? And why not make it $20 for that matter?

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