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luckyone
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Re: Twitter permanently suspends Trump's account

Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:05 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
They didn't make the argument it was force fed to them by who they watch on TV. In any case it's complete nonsense.

Yes yes we know. Left wing main stream media bad. Right wing media good, never does a thing wrong, never dabbles in misinformation. Please sing us a new song, I've grown tired of this one hit wonder.
 
LCDFlight
Posts: 992
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Re: Twitter permanently suspends Trump's account

Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:10 pm

Francoflier wrote:
RJMAZ wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Doesn’t that suggest people in red states should emphasize engineering and CS education if they want to be able to compete? That’s how these giants got where they are.

You raise a good point. The majority of members here are engineers, pilots or white collar workers. The vast majority of these jobs are in big cities and nearly every big citiy in the US are democrat. Trump has been very combative with Europe so European members are also democrat supporters.

Some forums allow polls. I would be certain 95+% of this forum would be democrat.


So what you're saying is that people with more education, who tend to concentrate in large urban centers, tend to not vote for Trump? Or are you saying the cities themselves turn people democrat like fluoride in the water turns the frogs gay?

Many of these outlets and users being banned used these platforms to incite violence. Terrorist groups have been banned from Twitter and Facebook for a while now. Is that censorship as well?


Trump doesn't support the interests of people with the most education. He represented low educated people.... which, in politics, is not necessarily bad. Any democratic system is built on the consent of lower-achieving people.

The problem is he is also unstable and mean, in addition to being corrupt (which is nothing unusual). Trump failed to make a dime in politics. He has less money now than he did when he started. More intelligent politicians frequently become wealthy using the government's power. Trump could not figure out how to do that. He doesn't have the talent.

------

ABOUT TWITTER.. some of us may think it is possibly a bad precedent. But after the Capitol clown attack, I understand. My question is, what about the phone company, do they also have the right to cut off politicians from phone service? What about the US Mail, do they decide what mailers they will deliver? If large corporations control the means of communication, how does it impact freedom of speech? How does it impact the political balance in countries where political speech is necessary? I really don't want private companies making those decisions for me.

Trump is indeed a threat to political stability... and SO are big tech companies throttling political speech.
Last edited by LCDFlight on Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Twitter permanently suspends Trump's account

Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:20 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
Francoflier wrote:
RJMAZ wrote:
You raise a good point. The majority of members here are engineers, pilots or white collar workers. The vast majority of these jobs are in big cities and nearly every big citiy in the US are democrat. Trump has been very combative with Europe so European members are also democrat supporters.

Some forums allow polls. I would be certain 95+% of this forum would be democrat.


So what you're saying is that people with more education, who tend to concentrate in large urban centers, tend to not vote for Trump? Or are you saying the cities themselves turn people democrat like fluoride in the water turns the frogs gay?

Many of these outlets and users being banned used these platforms to incite violence. Terrorist groups have been banned from Twitter and Facebook for a while now. Is that censorship as well?


Trump doesn't support the interests of people with the most education. He represented low educated people.... which I point out, in politics, is a necessity, it is not a bad thing. The problem is he is also unstable and mean, in addition to being corrupt (which is nothing unusual). Trump failed to make a dime in politics. He has less money now than he did when he started. It's quite different for more intelligent politicians, who frequently become wealthy using the government's power. Trump could not figure out how to do that. He doesn't have the skills to become a real gangster.

Anyway... about Twitter... I think it is possibly a bad precedent, but after the Capitol clown attack, I understand. My question is, what about the phone company, do they also have the right to cut off politicians they don't like from phone service? What about the US mail, do they cut people off? If large corporations control the means of communication, how does it impact freedom of speech? How does it impact the political balance in countries where political speech is necessary? I really don't want private companies making those decisions for me.


This is one of those spheres where jurisdictional differences can muddy the water. For example, it’s clear to any business anywhere they can’t deny service or employment on gender or religious grounds because that’s covered under federal law in the CRA. But political beliefs is way different, with no federal protection and differences between states and even cities. CA, NY, WI, CO, OR are known for having political protections in state law, and the city or Seattle specifically does not allow employers to monitor employee political expression.

Citizens United really changed the landscape in significant ways. Companies have much more power in this sphere than ever before.

https://prospect.org/api/amp/labor/empl ... ng-threat/
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LCDFlight
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Re: Twitter permanently suspends Trump's account

Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:29 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
Francoflier wrote:

So what you're saying is that people with more education, who tend to concentrate in large urban centers, tend to not vote for Trump? Or are you saying the cities themselves turn people democrat like fluoride in the water turns the frogs gay?

Many of these outlets and users being banned used these platforms to incite violence. Terrorist groups have been banned from Twitter and Facebook for a while now. Is that censorship as well?


Trump doesn't support the interests of people with the most education. He represented low educated people.... which I point out, in politics, is a necessity, it is not a bad thing. The problem is he is also unstable and mean, in addition to being corrupt (which is nothing unusual). Trump failed to make a dime in politics. He has less money now than he did when he started. It's quite different for more intelligent politicians, who frequently become wealthy using the government's power. Trump could not figure out how to do that. He doesn't have the skills to become a real gangster.

Anyway... about Twitter... I think it is possibly a bad precedent, but after the Capitol clown attack, I understand. My question is, what about the phone company, do they also have the right to cut off politicians they don't like from phone service? What about the US mail, do they cut people off? If large corporations control the means of communication, how does it impact freedom of speech? How does it impact the political balance in countries where political speech is necessary? I really don't want private companies making those decisions for me.


This is one of those spheres where jurisdictional differences can muddy the water. For example, it’s clear to any business anywhere they can’t deny service or employment on gender or religious grounds because that’s covered under federal law in the CRA. But political beliefs is way different, with no federal protection and differences between states and even cities. CA, NY, WI, CO, OR are known for having political protections in state law, and the city or Seattle specifically does not allow employers to monitor employee political expression.

Citizens United really changed the landscape in significant ways. Companies have much more power in this sphere than ever before.

https://prospect.org/api/amp/labor/empl ... ng-threat/


Oh gosh, not even saying companies need to respect political beliefs as a protected class. The Civil Rights Act doesn't say that. But, communication utilities should not be censoring people's political debates. The phone company can't cut off people's calls when they say forbidden words, or words against the politics of the phone company.

The US Mail delivers letters for and against viewpoints supported by USPS. They do not censor letters. Facebook and Twitter are almost equally powerful. Oh, let's face it... they're more powerful. And they are shaping the debate. That's dangerous.
Last edited by LCDFlight on Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
B777LRF
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Re: Twitter permanently suspends Trump's account

Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:29 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
Twitter and Facebook should start banning everyone from the GOP.


Taking away peoples' rights is only going to incite the crazies more. If you want to work on stopping so much division this isn't a good move.


Having a social media account is a privilege, not a right. Same as having a drivers license really; if you screw with the traffic laws badly enough and get busted, your driving privileges will be revoked.
Signature. You just read one.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Twitter permanently suspends Trump's account

Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:40 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:

Trump doesn't support the interests of people with the most education. He represented low educated people.... which I point out, in politics, is a necessity, it is not a bad thing. The problem is he is also unstable and mean, in addition to being corrupt (which is nothing unusual). Trump failed to make a dime in politics. He has less money now than he did when he started. It's quite different for more intelligent politicians, who frequently become wealthy using the government's power. Trump could not figure out how to do that. He doesn't have the skills to become a real gangster.

Anyway... about Twitter... I think it is possibly a bad precedent, but after the Capitol clown attack, I understand. My question is, what about the phone company, do they also have the right to cut off politicians they don't like from phone service? What about the US mail, do they cut people off? If large corporations control the means of communication, how does it impact freedom of speech? How does it impact the political balance in countries where political speech is necessary? I really don't want private companies making those decisions for me.


This is one of those spheres where jurisdictional differences can muddy the water. For example, it’s clear to any business anywhere they can’t deny service or employment on gender or religious grounds because that’s covered under federal law in the CRA. But political beliefs is way different, with no federal protection and differences between states and even cities. CA, NY, WI, CO, OR are known for having political protections in state law, and the city or Seattle specifically does not allow employers to monitor employee political expression.

Citizens United really changed the landscape in significant ways. Companies have much more power in this sphere than ever before.

https://prospect.org/api/amp/labor/empl ... ng-threat/


Oh gosh, not even saying companies need to respect political beliefs as a protected class. The Civil Rights Act doesn't say that. But, communication utilities should not be censoring people's political debates. The phone company can't cut off people's calls when they say forbidden words, or words against the politics of the phone company.

The US Mail delivers letters for and against viewpoints supported by USPS. They do not censor letters. Facebook and Twitter are almost equally powerful. Oh, let's face it... they're more powerful. And they are shaping the debate. That's dangerous.


I realize you were saying that, but I was pointing out we’re in uncharted waters in the current legal environment. Denials of service / employment are basically not protected against as a general rule, so what’s to stop communication companies from doing what you describe? All they have to do is change their bylaws or TOS.
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moo
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Re: Twitter permanently suspends Trump's account

Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:47 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
Twitter and Facebook should start banning everyone from the GOP.


Taking away peoples' rights is only going to incite the crazies more. If you want to work on stopping so much division this isn't a good move.


Websites banning people involves precisely no rights at all - you have no right for Twitter or Facebook to give you service, not even under the First Amendment.

Its astounding how many people dont know that...

The First Amendment gives you the right to say something yourself, it does not give you the right to be published or hosted by someone else against their will. You do not have the right to force someone else to say something for you.
 
ChrisKen
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Re: Twitter permanently suspends Trump's account

Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:49 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
Twitter and Facebook should start banning everyone from the GOP.


Taking away peoples' rights is only going to incite the crazies more.

Having a twitter/facebook account isn't a right, it's a privilege. Your right to free speech is not hindered in any way by not having one. You have a pair of face flaps and if you went to school, the ability to write.

With free speech also comes responsibility. Words carry weight, in the same way you'd be charged after the stampede killed someone in a crowded mall because you shouted "there's a shooter" or "fire", you'll (should) also be held to account when your words cause acts of violence, insurrection and/or death.

Claiming "but free speech" does not provide immunity from the effects of your words. (Sedition, incitement, libel, etc etc)
Last edited by ChrisKen on Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:51 pm, edited 3 times in total.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Twitter permanently suspends Trump's account

Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:50 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

This is one of those spheres where jurisdictional differences can muddy the water. For example, it’s clear to any business anywhere they can’t deny service or employment on gender or religious grounds because that’s covered under federal law in the CRA. But political beliefs is way different, with no federal protection and differences between states and even cities. CA, NY, WI, CO, OR are known for having political protections in state law, and the city or Seattle specifically does not allow employers to monitor employee political expression.

Citizens United really changed the landscape in significant ways. Companies have much more power in this sphere than ever before.

https://prospect.org/api/amp/labor/empl ... ng-threat/


Oh gosh, not even saying companies need to respect political beliefs as a protected class. The Civil Rights Act doesn't say that. But, communication utilities should not be censoring people's political debates. The phone company can't cut off people's calls when they say forbidden words, or words against the politics of the phone company.

The US Mail delivers letters for and against viewpoints supported by USPS. They do not censor letters. Facebook and Twitter are almost equally powerful. Oh, let's face it... they're more powerful. And they are shaping the debate. That's dangerous.


I realize you were saying that, but I was pointing out we’re in uncharted waters in the current legal environment. Denials of service / employment are basically not protected against as a general rule, so what’s to stop communication companies from doing what you describe? All they have to do is change their bylaws or TOS.


Unfortunately I am no lawyer, so let me add some links. This isn't entirely new. I *think* a communications company is either a utility / common carrier (no power to edit), or it is a private publisher, meaning a panel of editors, or the firm's owner, gets to decide what, and when, they publish anything, if they decide to publish anything of yours at all. Facebook is saying it is the latter. Zuckerberg is a "publisher." When one person uses FB Messenger to talk to another person, Facebook may edit their message or I guess send nothing at all, if FB doesn't like it!

Imagine if Trump had that power?

https://hbr.org/2019/05/dont-break-up-f ... -a-utility

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... er-lawsuit

https://www.quora.com/Are-phone-compani ... ot?share=1
 
DLFREEBIRD
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Re: Twitter permanently suspends Trump's account

Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:58 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
moo wrote:

If you have to ask that question, then its not worth answering you.

And I think that's part of the problem, while companies like Twitter have become multinational compabies, they're still intrinsically America, and think millions in Xinjiang getting cultural genocided is less of a problem than some disorder in their own country, with those who pronote the forner idea still being allowed in the platform.


Again, legally that isn’t what’s happening. They shut down Trump’s personal account and those of very active malingerers in the alt-right. The official POTUS account is open, in accordance with their policy regarding official accounts globally. They basically do not moderate official government accounts because they think the world should see what their official statements are.


no trump posted on the POTUS account, unfortunately it had nothing to do with his being president, he just went on a rant against twitter, they removed what he wrote. POTUS account is still up for the next president. However, it will probably be monitored if the president using it, not using it for it's intended purpose.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Twitter permanently suspends Trump's account

Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:58 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:

Oh gosh, not even saying companies need to respect political beliefs as a protected class. The Civil Rights Act doesn't say that. But, communication utilities should not be censoring people's political debates. The phone company can't cut off people's calls when they say forbidden words, or words against the politics of the phone company.

The US Mail delivers letters for and against viewpoints supported by USPS. They do not censor letters. Facebook and Twitter are almost equally powerful. Oh, let's face it... they're more powerful. And they are shaping the debate. That's dangerous.


I realize you were saying that, but I was pointing out we’re in uncharted waters in the current legal environment. Denials of service / employment are basically not protected against as a general rule, so what’s to stop communication companies from doing what you describe? All they have to do is change their bylaws or TOS.


Unfortunately I am no lawyer, so let me add some links. This isn't entirely new. I *think* a communications company is either a utility / common carrier (no power to edit), or it is a private publisher, meaning a panel of editors, or the firm's owner, gets to decide what, and when, they publish anything, if they decide to publish anything of yours at all. Facebook is saying it is the latter. Zuckerberg is a "publisher." When one person uses FB Messenger to talk to another person, Facebook may edit their message or I guess send nothing at all, if FB doesn't like it!

Imagine if Trump had that power?

https://hbr.org/2019/05/dont-break-up-f ... -a-utility

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... er-lawsuit

https://www.quora.com/Are-phone-compani ... ot?share=1


The quora link reflects my understanding of the difference between phone companies and online comms platforms.
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alfa164
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Re: Twitter permanently suspends Trump's account

Sat Jan 09, 2021 11:05 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
Unfortunately I am no lawyer, so let me add some links. This isn't entirely new. I *think* a communications company is either a utility / common carrier (no power to edit), or it is a private publisher, meaning a panel of editors, or the firm's owner, gets to decide what, and when, they publish anything, if they decide to publish anything of yours at all. Facebook is saying it is the latter. Zuckerberg is a "publisher." When one person uses FB Messenger to talk to another person, Facebook may edit their message or I guess send nothing at all, if FB doesn't like it!
Imagine if Trump had that power?
https://hbr.org/2019/05/dont-break-up-f ... -a-utility
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... er-lawsuit
https://www.quora.com/Are-phone-compani ... ot?share=1


You probably should read your own sources before you post:

"Social media is different because they are content providers, not carriers. There is language in Section 230 of the CDA that covers carriers (like ISPs), and separate language that covers content providers. Content providers can exercise editorial control over the content they provide without incurring responsibility for all content posted to their sites. This is similar to, but not the same as the “common carrier” rules. The differentiator is that “carriers” do not supply content, but have a business that is simply carrying bits from point A to point B."

https://www.quora.com/Are-phone-companies-allowed-to-censor-speech-they-disagree-with-like-social-media-Why-or-why-not?share=1[/quote]
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Dieuwer
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Re: Twitter permanently suspends Trump's account

Sat Jan 09, 2021 11:22 pm

I also hear rumors that the Iranian leadership will be banned imminently from Twitter.
 
aerosreenivas
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Re: Twitter permanently suspends Trump's account

Sat Jan 09, 2021 11:47 pm

I feel Twitter and other Social Media Platforms should have banned Trump's account couple of years ago itself.

Because by that time most of his 'Loyal Followers' had already believed in most of his lies. That meant they were never going to give up on him even if he was wrong.

So, I feel Twitter and other social media platforms reacted very late in banning Trump permanently.

But still it is 'Better Late Than Never'.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Twitter permanently suspends Trump's account

Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:06 am

NIKV69 wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
Twitter and Facebook should start banning everyone from the GOP.


Taking away peoples' rights is only going to incite the crazies more. If you want to work on stopping so much division this isn't a good move.


Nobody’s rights are being ‘taken away’. What are you on about??
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RJMAZ
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Re: Twitter permanently suspends Trump's account

Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:15 am

LCDFlight wrote:
Trump failed to make a dime in politics. He has less money now than he did when he started. More intelligent politicians frequently become wealthy using the government's power.

So let me get this straight. You prefer a politician that uses their government power to gain personal wealth? :shock: As that demonstrates intelligence?

A highly intelligent person with ZERO corruption would not use their power for personal gain.


LCDFlight wrote:
Trump could not figure out how to do that. He doesn't have the talent.


You say Trump didn't gain personal wealth because he is dumb, I say it is because he is not corrupt. The primary reason Trump was elected was because he has so much money already he becomes hard to bribe.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Twitter permanently suspends Trump's account

Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:16 am

NIKV69 wrote:
Taking away peoples' rights is only going to incite the crazies more. If you want to work on stopping so much division this isn't a good move.


Which rights are being taken away by being banned from Twitter, et al?
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NIKV69
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Re: Twitter permanently suspends Trump's account

Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:26 am

scbriml wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
Taking away peoples' rights is only going to incite the crazies more. If you want to work on stopping so much division this isn't a good move.


Which rights are being taken away by being banned from Twitter, et al?


I am well aware that twitter can do what they please but in this age to ban someone because of their political party (I was responding to a post that suggested this) is akin to taking away someone's right to speak on this medium IMO,
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luckyone
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Re: Twitter permanently suspends Trump's account

Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:36 am

RJMAZ wrote:
You say Trump didn't gain personal wealth because he is dumb, I say it is because he is not corrupt. The primary reason Trump was elected was because he has so much money already he becomes hard to bribe.

Yet he’s spent the last two months asking for cash...
 
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moo
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Re: Twitter permanently suspends Trump's account

Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:52 am

NIKV69 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
Taking away peoples' rights is only going to incite the crazies more. If you want to work on stopping so much division this isn't a good move.


Which rights are being taken away by being banned from Twitter, et al?


I am well aware that twitter can do what they please but in this age to ban someone because of their political party (I was responding to a post that suggested this) is akin to taking away someone's right to speak on this medium IMO,


(Emphasis mine)

Once again, no such right exists.

Thats the thing you arent understanding, or are simply ignoring. These users can go make their own website or publish their own newsletter - no right has been removed from them.
 
alfa164
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Re: Twitter permanently suspends Trump's account

Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:57 am

NIKV69 wrote:
I am well aware that twitter can do what they please but in this age to ban someone because of their political party (I was responding to a post that suggested this) is akin to taking away someone's right to speak on this medium IMO,


It is obvious you do not understand that he was not banned because of his political party, but because his irrational, self-serving, inflammatory lies could - and did - lead to violence and death. He was desperate to hang onto power (even though he wasn't really interested in doing the job it entailed) and, in then end, he destroyed what could have been a successful populist movement through his own ego, narcissism, and demands.

No respectable - and self-respecting - platform allows dangerous, inflammatory, and coercive speech. He neither had a "right" to to, nor did Twitter have a justification to allow it. Indeed, the only real problem is that Twitter allowed it to go on far too long.
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scbriml
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Re: Twitter permanently suspends Trump's account

Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:57 am

luckyone wrote:
RJMAZ wrote:
You say Trump didn't gain personal wealth because he is dumb, I say it is because he is not corrupt. The primary reason Trump was elected was because he has so much money already he becomes hard to bribe.

Yet he’s spent the last two months asking begging for cash...


Fixed that for you!
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luckyone
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Re: Twitter permanently suspends Trump's account

Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:04 am

scbriml wrote:
luckyone wrote:
RJMAZ wrote:
You say Trump didn't gain personal wealth because he is dumb, I say it is because he is not corrupt. The primary reason Trump was elected was because he has so much money already he becomes hard to bribe.

Yet he’s spent the last two months asking begging for cash...


Fixed that for you!

I was going for diplomatic but hey, turns out the peacock could take a little more paint.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Twitter permanently suspends Trump's account

Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:04 am

NIKV69 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
Taking away peoples' rights is only going to incite the crazies more. If you want to work on stopping so much division this isn't a good move.


Which rights are being taken away by being banned from Twitter, et al?


I am well aware that twitter can do what they please but in this age to ban someone because of their political party (I was responding to a post that suggested this) is akin to taking away someone's right to speak on this medium IMO,


You still seem confused - a. nobody has a right to speak ‘on this medium’, as all access is granted by sign-up. b. Citizens United established the precedent that companies can go to great lengths to see their political views realized or prioritized. If that includes getting rid of views they don’t like, there’s nothing really preventing that. Companies have rights too, after all SCOTUS ruled they are on par with an individual’s views.
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seb146
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Re: Twitter permanently suspends Trump's account

Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:19 am

NIKV69 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
Taking away peoples' rights is only going to incite the crazies more. If you want to work on stopping so much division this isn't a good move.


Which rights are being taken away by being banned from Twitter, et al?


I am well aware that twitter can do what they please but in this age to ban someone because of their political party (I was responding to a post that suggested this) is akin to taking away someone's right to speak on this medium IMO,


They banned him because he incited a riot and attempted a coup. Plenty of Republicans and Socialists and Communists and Democrats have social media accounts that have not been banned. Care to guess why?
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stratosphere
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Re: Twitter permanently suspends Trump's account

Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:29 am

seb146 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
scbriml wrote:

Which rights are being taken away by being banned from Twitter, et al?


I am well aware that twitter can do what they please but in this age to ban someone because of their political party (I was responding to a post that suggested this) is akin to taking away someone's right to speak on this medium IMO,


They banned him because he incited a riot and attempted a coup. Plenty of Republicans and Socialists and Communists and Democrats have social media accounts that have not been banned. Care to guess why?


He did not incite a riot. Did he actually say "storm the capitol"? No he did not. He did what you all have been preaching all summer with BLM and ANTIFA he said to march on the Capitol. By the way every republican condemned these actions. Certainly cannot say that on the democrats side for the summer of love where peoples businesses went up in flames and is still going on in Portland OR. I think for all concerned Trump needs to go. Only because he is such a lightning rod and he does bring a lot of this on himself. But I see a lot of things I don't like on your side of the fence. You think now that Biden is in everyone should play nice now? There is a lot of hatred on the right from everything from the Russia collusion to "hes not my president" starting from day one of Trump getting in office. They will not forget either. Biden has his work cut out for him. I have never seen a division like this in my lifetime. I don't think it will come together anytime soon.
 
NYCVIE
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Re: Twitter permanently suspends Trump's account

Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:58 am

stratosphere wrote:
seb146 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:

I am well aware that twitter can do what they please but in this age to ban someone because of their political party (I was responding to a post that suggested this) is akin to taking away someone's right to speak on this medium IMO,


They banned him because he incited a riot and attempted a coup. Plenty of Republicans and Socialists and Communists and Democrats have social media accounts that have not been banned. Care to guess why?


He did not incite a riot. Did he actually say "storm the capitol"? No he did not. He did what you all have been preaching all summer with BLM and ANTIFA he said to march on the Capitol. By the way every republican condemned these actions. Certainly cannot say that on the democrats side for the summer of love where peoples businesses went up in flames and is still going on in Portland OR. I think for all concerned Trump needs to go. Only because he is such a lightning rod and he does bring a lot of this on himself. But I see a lot of things I don't like on your side of the fence. You think now that Biden is in everyone should play nice now? There is a lot of hatred on the right from everything from the Russia collusion to "hes not my president" starting from day one of Trump getting in office. They will not forget either. Biden has his work cut out for him. I have never seen a division like this in my lifetime. I don't think it will come together anytime soon.


The reason this BLM comparison is never going to work is because it's apples to oranges. You think people were in the streets last summer because of...Joe Biden?? Because of the Democrats? The Democratic nominee could have been a fig tree and the protests and unrest would have been the exact same. Yet here we're talking about people who went to the Capitol with the goal of intimidating Republicans to overturn the results of a democratic election, with the support and guidance of Trump himself and some notable Republicans.

The only reason this comparison even exists is because over the summer the Republicans decided that they could score political points by fear mongering the middle of the country and suburbs into thinking that the Democrats and the radical left liberal progressive BLM Antifa terrorists were coming to destroy the United States. All the while you have Trump himself orchestrating an attack on the democratic institution of the United States (and "attack" is what it is, even had it not been violent).

Trump has been spewing his BS for years, he already broke the Twitter guidelines multiple times (mind you he could have been banned for his consistent proclamations that he won the election), and now that there's violence (IN HIS NAME) and he continues to put out rhetoric that is clearly inciting and riling these people up (particularly right before an inauguration that he consistently has been saying is fraudulent and stolen) he's been banned. To choose to see that as "political bias" is completely ridiculous.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: Twitter permanently suspends Trump's account

Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:23 am

stratosphere wrote:
seb146 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:

I am well aware that twitter can do what they please but in this age to ban someone because of their political party (I was responding to a post that suggested this) is akin to taking away someone's right to speak on this medium IMO,


They banned him because he incited a riot and attempted a coup. Plenty of Republicans and Socialists and Communists and Democrats have social media accounts that have not been banned. Care to guess why?


He did not incite a riot. Did he actually say "storm the capitol"? No he did not. He did what you all have been preaching all summer with BLM and ANTIFA he said to march on the Capitol. By the way every republican condemned these actions. Certainly cannot say that on the democrats side for the summer of love where peoples businesses went up in flames and is still going on in Portland OR. I think for all concerned Trump needs to go. Only because he is such a lightning rod and he does bring a lot of this on himself. But I see a lot of things I don't like on your side of the fence. You think now that Biden is in everyone should play nice now? There is a lot of hatred on the right from everything from the Russia collusion to "hes not my president" starting from day one of Trump getting in office. They will not forget either. Biden has his work cut out for him. I have never seen a division like this in my lifetime. I don't think it will come together anytime soon.



Trump has, from day 1, fostered this very division and resentment. He has NEVER, not once, done any effort to assuage the political divide and growing tensions between the extreme right party he was leading and the rest of the mainstream political spectrum. Every single of his statement relating to the opposition has been made for the purpose of deflecting blame towards his political opponents or what he called the extreme left, or even more moderate Republicans who dared oppose him. Every single of these statements was inflammatory and of course based on lies.
Trump has thrived off this political and societal rift and has done everything he could to drive that wedge even deeper, so deep in fact that he was happy to call on his cult and brainwashed militia to forcefully overturn the government for him.

To now put the onus on the Democrats to reconciliate these wildly opposing factions after 4 years of blindly and faithfully supporting the guy who is responsible for most of it is hypocrisy to the highest degree.
The problem with many Trump supporters is that they don't seem to realize how much of an anomaly and abnormality Trump was and simply revert to ridiculous equivalences and comparisons with more normal aspect of political life when there is none. He was the closest the US ever had to a deranged populist dictator with a personality cult and actively tried to overturn the country's democratic system.

Fortunately, and contrary to what Trump has been doing, Biden has at least been pretty clear about his goal to calm the tempers and try to work towards being more conciliatory. Not it will be easy to fix the mess he is inheriting.
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aerosreenivas
Posts: 198
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Re: Twitter permanently suspends Trump's account

Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:51 am

Marco Rubio should now be regretting saying these words before the 'Presidential Election in 2016'. He quoted saying this in his own words, "We cannot afford to elect Hillary Clinton, because America cannot afford another four years like last eight".

He was obviously referring to Obama. Here is the link to the article below where all the things that he spoke about Obama and Hillary Clinton.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/marco-rubi ... d-america/

The point here is that some Republican members like Rubio, Jeb Bush, Ted Cruz and few others are 'Equally Guilty For What Happened At The Capitol Last Wednesday.

They knew very well back then that Trump was a 'Insane Guy Talking Out Of Sorts, Spreading Lies And Hatred'.

Despite that, these GOPs wanted someone who can just 'Implement Their Conservative Agendas' and project Democrats as 'Socialists'.
 
GDB
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Re: Twitter permanently suspends Trump's account

Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:10 am

moo wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
scbriml wrote:

Which rights are being taken away by being banned from Twitter, et al?


I am well aware that twitter can do what they please but in this age to ban someone because of their political party (I was responding to a post that suggested this) is akin to taking away someone's right to speak on this medium IMO,


(Emphasis mine)

Once again, no such right exists.

Thats the thing you arent understanding, or are simply ignoring. These users can go make their own website or publish their own newsletter - no right has been removed from them.


I wouldn't bother, they know and are being irritating, maybe in an attempt to justify their world of Trumpism destroy itself, they get all bent out of shape when the stupidity and racism of the Trump/GOP cult is shown to them by the very words and deeds of this human garbage.
Why get into it? Teaching at a Kindergarten would be easier.
That's why they like the orange man child, he's on their level just was once gifted more money than they'll ever see, (which he pissed away - of course).
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Twitter permanently suspends Trump's account

Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:30 am

Well, Parler is going completely down, after Amazon is moving to kick them off their Amazon Web Services. Amazon has said Parler is getting booted as of Sunday, January 10th, at 11:59PM PST.

I doubt any other web services company is going to want to touch them... I suspect they are going down for good.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Twitter permanently suspends Trump's account

Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:48 am

ThePointblank wrote:
Well, Parler is going completely down, after Amazon is moving to kick them off their Amazon Web Services. Amazon has said Parler is getting booted as of Sunday, January 10th, at 11:59PM PST.

I doubt any other web services company is going to want to touch them... I suspect they are going down for good.


Parl-ey’s CEO claims they will be back up by Tuesday with another host. They will be even slower off AWS because their backend is resource heavy and the UX absolutely sucks.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
tommy1808
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Re: Twitter permanently suspends Trump's account

Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:55 am

LCDFlight wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:

Trump doesn't support the interests of people with the most education. He represented low educated people.... which I point out, in politics, is a necessity, it is not a bad thing. The problem is he is also unstable and mean, in addition to being corrupt (which is nothing unusual). Trump failed to make a dime in politics. He has less money now than he did when he started. It's quite different for more intelligent politicians, who frequently become wealthy using the government's power. Trump could not figure out how to do that. He doesn't have the skills to become a real gangster.

Anyway... about Twitter... I think it is possibly a bad precedent, but after the Capitol clown attack, I understand. My question is, what about the phone company, do they also have the right to cut off politicians they don't like from phone service? What about the US mail, do they cut people off? If large corporations control the means of communication, how does it impact freedom of speech? How does it impact the political balance in countries where political speech is necessary? I really don't want private companies making those decisions for me.


This is one of those spheres where jurisdictional differences can muddy the water. For example, it’s clear to any business anywhere they can’t deny service or employment on gender or religious grounds because that’s covered under federal law in the CRA. But political beliefs is way different, with no federal protection and differences between states and even cities. CA, NY, WI, CO, OR are known for having political protections in state law, and the city or Seattle specifically does not allow employers to monitor employee political expression.

Citizens United really changed the landscape in significant ways. Companies have much more power in this sphere than ever before.

https://prospect.org/api/amp/labor/empl ... ng-threat/


Oh gosh, not even saying companies need to respect political beliefs as a protected class. The Civil Rights Act doesn't say that. But, communication utilities should not be censoring people's political debates. The phone company can't cut off people's calls when they say forbidden words, or words against the politics of the phone company.

The US Mail delivers letters for and against viewpoints supported by USPS. They do not censor letters. Facebook and Twitter are almost equally powerful. Oh, let's face it... they're more powerful. And they are shaping the debate. That's dangerous.


I don't think anyone was ever banned for the contents of their private messages send on those platforms. Hence the analogy falls flat.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
B777LRF
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Re: Twitter permanently suspends Trump's account

Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:06 pm

It is of particular interest to observe Trumpists saying the next 4 years will be tough on Biden, because of what the Democrats did to Trump. They must have the attention span of a gold fish, having seemingly forgotten how the Republicans treated Obama for 8 years.
Signature. You just read one.
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Twitter permanently suspends Trump's account

Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:21 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
ThePointblank wrote:
Well, Parler is going completely down, after Amazon is moving to kick them off their Amazon Web Services. Amazon has said Parler is getting booted as of Sunday, January 10th, at 11:59PM PST.

I doubt any other web services company is going to want to touch them... I suspect they are going down for good.


Parl-ey’s CEO claims they will be back up by Tuesday with another host. They will be even slower off AWS because their backend is resource heavy and the UX absolutely sucks.


I would bet good money they won't be back that quickly. It's going to take them time to find a host that's even remotely the size and scope that can handle them, and migrate the data, and that's not something one can do in a few days.

AWS is one of the biggest web hosting services companies out there. Their alternatives of the size and scale are Google Cloud and Microsoft's Azure. Neither of those will be willing to touch Parler.
 
bennett123
Posts: 10758
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: Twitter permanently suspends Trump's account

Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:31 pm

One point that seems to be getting lost here.

If this had been Joe Public rather than Donald Trump then his account would very likely have been closed long ago.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 14506
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Re: Twitter permanently suspends Trump's account

Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:38 pm

bennett123 wrote:
One point that seems to be getting lost here.

If this had been Joe Public rather than Donald Trump then his account would very likely have been closed long ago.


It is not lost, it is deliberately ignored as it destroys the narrative.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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Francoflier
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Re: Twitter permanently suspends Trump's account

Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:50 pm

ThePointblank wrote:
I would bet good money they won't be back that quickly. It's going to take them time to find a host that's even remotely the size and scope that can handle them, and migrate the data, and that's not something one can do in a few days.

AWS is one of the biggest web hosting services companies out there. Their alternatives of the size and scale are Google Cloud and Microsoft's Azure. Neither of those will be willing to touch Parler.


I'd say Parler's best hope would be to find a large scale host somewhere abroad. There certainly are enough countries out there that would like to see this source of discord and division within the American society continue...

Russia is an obvious candidate, but maybe too obvious for Parler's sake. Ditto China.
The middle East, especially the KSA, could be another -more subtle- option. They sure loved their relationship with Trump over there and would enjoy the boost to the domestic tech industry they try to foster.

Though at the end of the day, even if Parler goes down, users of these loony rabbit-hole chat groups always find other places to gather online. At least these more obscure gathering places attract less attention and traffic.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
NIKV69
Posts: 14250
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Re: Twitter permanently suspends Trump's account

Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:19 pm

moo wrote:
Thats the thing you arent understanding, or are simply ignoring. These users can go make their own website or publish their own newsletter - no right has been removed from them.


I understand it fine, they did make their own and it was removed on apple and Amazon. That was what I meant.
90 Day Fiancé has taught me that Russian woman are excellent.
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 4095
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Twitter permanently suspends Trump's account

Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:23 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
moo wrote:
Thats the thing you arent understanding, or are simply ignoring. These users can go make their own website or publish their own newsletter - no right has been removed from them.


I understand it fine, they did make their own and it was removed on apple and Amazon. That was what I meant.

So did apple and Amazon remove their freedom of speech or did they choose not to be a platform for their speech? It’s a different thing. If every publisher I. The world doesn’t want to publish my book it’s their choice and not a violation of my freedom of speech.

My understanding is that you can limit the speech based on the content but cannot make the limitation based on the person.

If you choose to not make a wedding cake for a homosexual couple that is effectively identical to one that has been made for a heterosexual couple then that is not ok but to limit the cake making because it is materially different is ok.

If you choose to prevent someone using your services to host a website or information based on the information and not because of those who the information originates from is not infringing on rights.

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Last edited by flipdewaf on Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Twitter permanently suspends Trump's account

Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:25 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
moo wrote:
Thats the thing you arent understanding, or are simply ignoring. These users can go make their own website or publish their own newsletter - no right has been removed from them.


I understand it fine, they did make their own and it was removed on apple and Amazon. That was what I meant.


That still has nothing to do with rights ‘taken away’. They’ll just have to shop around for a new server host now. Companies have a right to do business or not do business with others as they see fit.

What say you about Bongino, Don Jr, and all the usual hosts claiming that free speech rights are being trampled here? They are STILL lying to their audience. None of them understand what the 1st Amendment actually says, but let’s leave that be.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Twitter permanently suspends Trump's account

Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:29 pm

ThePointblank wrote:
Well, Parler is going completely down, after Amazon is moving to kick them off their Amazon Web Services. Amazon has said Parler is getting booted as of Sunday, January 10th, at 11:59PM PST.

I doubt any other web services company is going to want to touch them... I suspect they are going down for good.


There we go, so much for democracy. This is one party rule looks like. Pressuring private businesses to suppress or censor speech and cancel out the other side.

And this is before the Democrats take over the WH and the Senate.

What awaits is going to be much more than that.

The left is not happy with controlling: Washington, the MSM, silicon valley, Academia, Hollywood, Professional sports, board rooms of this country, everything. They need total and absolute control. Would that make them happy? probably not.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Twitter permanently suspends Trump's account

Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:43 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
ThePointblank wrote:
Well, Parler is going completely down, after Amazon is moving to kick them off their Amazon Web Services. Amazon has said Parler is getting booted as of Sunday, January 10th, at 11:59PM PST.

I doubt any other web services company is going to want to touch them... I suspect they are going down for good.


There we go, so much for democracy. This is one party rule looks like. Pressuring private businesses to suppress or censor speech and cancel out the other side.

And this is before the Democrats take over the WH and the Senate.

What awaits is going to be much more than that.

The left is not happy with controlling: Washington, the MSM, silicon valley, Academia, Hollywood, Professional sports, board rooms of this country, everything. They need total and absolute control. Would that make them happy? probably not.


You don’t seem to understand that this IS democracy. SCOTUS ruled in Citizens United that corporations have the right to represent their own political interests the same as individuals. Companies are a collection of individuals with a shared majority of values. It just so happens the values of highly educated workers in major cities tend to be leftist and centrist.

Maybe instead of focusing on this false ‘speech rights’ victim complex, conservatives should put more money into data science so they can compete in this corporate sphere. Spending a lot of money on HS football doesn’t seem to be getting them anywhere.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
AirWorthy99
Posts: 1333
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Re: Twitter permanently suspends Trump's account

Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:53 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
ThePointblank wrote:
Well, Parler is going completely down, after Amazon is moving to kick them off their Amazon Web Services. Amazon has said Parler is getting booted as of Sunday, January 10th, at 11:59PM PST.

I doubt any other web services company is going to want to touch them... I suspect they are going down for good.


There we go, so much for democracy. This is one party rule looks like. Pressuring private businesses to suppress or censor speech and cancel out the other side.

And this is before the Democrats take over the WH and the Senate.

What awaits is going to be much more than that.

The left is not happy with controlling: Washington, the MSM, silicon valley, Academia, Hollywood, Professional sports, board rooms of this country, everything. They need total and absolute control. Would that make them happy? probably not.


You don’t seem to understand that this IS democracy. SCOTUS ruled in Citizens United that corporations have the right to represent their own political interests the same as individuals. Companies are a collection of individuals with a shared majority of values. It just so happens the values of highly educated workers in major cities tend to be leftist and centrist.

Maybe instead of focusing on this false ‘speech rights’ victim complex, conservatives should put more money into data science so they can compete in this corporate sphere. Spending a lot of money on HS football doesn’t seem to be getting them anywhere.


Not disputing none of that. Basically what you are saying, we do this because we can. That's OK, as long as your side is happy and is not the one getting all of this.

However, when the time comes and things change against your way, perhaps then you might just understand the severity of this.

I am all in favor of private enterprise, you have read my thoughts for months. However recent events have very little to do with private enterprise, Washington is becoming full blue, therefore these companies are bowing to leftists/democrat pressure.

BTW, I believe Twitter should have banned Trump years ago. Why didn't they? With all that has been going on for months this just adds more to the conspiracy and anger out there. Bad timing. The Parler thing, is I think just too much, its adding more fuel to the fire.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Twitter permanently suspends Trump's account

Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:58 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

There we go, so much for democracy. This is one party rule looks like. Pressuring private businesses to suppress or censor speech and cancel out the other side.

And this is before the Democrats take over the WH and the Senate.

What awaits is going to be much more than that.

The left is not happy with controlling: Washington, the MSM, silicon valley, Academia, Hollywood, Professional sports, board rooms of this country, everything. They need total and absolute control. Would that make them happy? probably not.


You don’t seem to understand that this IS democracy. SCOTUS ruled in Citizens United that corporations have the right to represent their own political interests the same as individuals. Companies are a collection of individuals with a shared majority of values. It just so happens the values of highly educated workers in major cities tend to be leftist and centrist.

Maybe instead of focusing on this false ‘speech rights’ victim complex, conservatives should put more money into data science so they can compete in this corporate sphere. Spending a lot of money on HS football doesn’t seem to be getting them anywhere.


Not disputing none of that. Basically what you are saying, we do this because we can. That's OK, as long as your side is happy and is not the one getting all of this.

However, when the time comes and things change against your way, perhaps then you might just understand the severity of this.

I am all in favor of private enterprise, you have read my thoughts for months. However recent events have very little to do with private enterprise, Washington is becoming full blue, therefore these companies are bowing to leftists/democrat pressure.

BTW, I believe Twitter should have banned Trump years ago. Why didn't they? With all that has been going on for months this just adds more to the conspiracy and anger out there. Bad timing. The Parler thing, is I think just too much, its adding more fuel to the fire.


No evidence of this ‘Democrat’ pressure you speak of. Silicon Valley marches to its own beat if you know anything at all about its ethos. The largest companies there see their sphere of influence to be worldwide, not domestic. Amazon’s attention to Parler came from strong demands from employees, not politicians.
Last edited by Aaron747 on Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Francoflier
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Re: Twitter permanently suspends Trump's account

Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:59 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
ThePointblank wrote:
Well, Parler is going completely down, after Amazon is moving to kick them off their Amazon Web Services. Amazon has said Parler is getting booted as of Sunday, January 10th, at 11:59PM PST.

I doubt any other web services company is going to want to touch them... I suspect they are going down for good.


There we go, so much for democracy. This is one party rule looks like. Pressuring private businesses to suppress or censor speech and cancel out the other side.

And this is before the Democrats take over the WH and the Senate.

What awaits is going to be much more than that.

The left is not happy with controlling: Washington, the MSM, silicon valley, Academia, Hollywood, Professional sports, board rooms of this country, everything. They need total and absolute control. Would that make them happy? probably not.


I'd love to know your theory on how 'The Left' exerts control over these industries and sectors...
Has it ever occurred to you that all these actors may find Trump and his hordes so unpalatable and so much of a threat on American society and democracy that they all denounce and reject the movement in unison, on their own accord?

Why do you keep mistaking the quasi Universal rejection of Trump and all he says, does and represents for censorship? The US and most of the Western World have been busy censoring and trying to hinder the operation of various terrorist and extremist groups for years. Is that also censorship, repression or totalitarianism?
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scbriml
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Re: Twitter permanently suspends Trump's account

Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:26 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
There we go, so much for democracy. This is one party rule looks like. Pressuring private businesses to suppress or censor speech and cancel out the other side.


Aside from the fact that nobody is censoring anybody else, who exactly in the democrats is pressurising the big media companies to reject the right-wing extremists?

Maybe all those idiots calling for the overthrow of the government should have read the Ts&Cs when they signed up for an account? You know, nobody cares if Billy-Bob from Alabama says "Trump is the greatest president of all time. The election was corrupt, rigged and stolen and all democrats are communist scum." on Twitter (or your social media platform of choice). Absolutely nobody cares. But when hundreds and thousands of people are posting about killing democrats, hanging Pence and shooting Pelosi, things may have gone too far. Free speech is not without its limitations or consequences (not that Twitter is, or has ever been, free speech).

Parler became the "free speech" go-to platform for the extremist right-wingers to spout their hatred with little fear of censure. They loved it, preaching to the converted. But, John Matze made a dumbass decision to host the service on Amazon's AWS. It was inevitable that Amazon would eventually say "Enough!" Of course, all the butt-hurt extremists are squealing about their free speech rights being infringed, but that just goes to show they don't even understand the very constitution they claim to hold so dear.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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proest
Posts: 33
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Re: Twitter permanently suspends Trump's account

Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:39 pm

Just wondering. Theoretically, can Trump unban himself with an executive order?
 
Confuscius
Posts: 3731
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 12:29 am

Re: Twitter permanently suspends Trump's account

Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:43 pm

Could Trump and his supporters start a Geocities account?
Ain't I a stinker?
 
ChrisKen
Posts: 1059
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:15 pm

Re: Twitter permanently suspends Trump's account

Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:46 pm

proest wrote:
Just wondering. Theoretically, can Trump unban himself with an executive order?

No. Contrary to his own delusions, he isn't all powerful and immune from the rule of law.

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Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos