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art
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Allegations of electoral fraud - why, when, who etc

Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:48 am

With tens of millions believing that Donald Trump was denied re-election due to electoral fraud, I am interested in the genesis of this notion and in how it came to be widely believed.

I read or heard recently (not sure where) of research that found that an untruth was 6 times as likely to be passed on via social media than was a truth. I presume that social media were an important element in spreading allegations of electoral fraud in the US presidential election.

Why were these allegations started?
When were these allegations started?
By whom were these allegations started?

How were these allegations spread?
By whom were these allegations spread?

I am not interested here in whether these allegations are true or false. Rather I am interested in the mechanisms that lead to large numbers of people coming to a belief that defies any need for supporting evidence.

Any comments (but not along party political lines, please) would be welcome.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Allegations of electoral fraud - why, when, who etc

Sun Jan 17, 2021 11:18 am

The why is fairly simple - because the vanquished didn't accept the fact that they could lose. Therefore they need to conjure up such allegations in order to assuage their beliefs.
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scbriml
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Re: Allegations of electoral fraud - why, when, who etc

Sun Jan 17, 2021 11:45 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
The why is fairly simple - because the vanquished didn't accept the fact that they could lose. Therefore they need to conjure up such allegations in order to assuage their beliefs.


The basic source was Trump himself with his baseless claims of fraudulent voting long before the election. I suspect he knew there was a good chance he was going to lose (all the polls said so), so he started sowing the seeds of doubt early. Of course, the diehard Trumpers were only ever going to believe their hero and every bit of "evidence" that was produced in support of those claims.
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ltbewr
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Re: Allegations of electoral fraud - why, when, who etc

Sun Jan 17, 2021 1:44 pm

To me the necessity of the use of vote by mail and in-person early voting on a scale never attempted before but for a few states due to Covid-19 is a factor. Too many saw their use as giving an (unfair) advantage to non-White voters. The irony is that many millions of Republicans used mail and early in-person voting iwith Trump getting many millions more votes than in 2016 and just enough in key states for Biden to win by the EC vote, more Republican members of the House, and continued Republican party domination of states.

Too many believe the expanded use of mail ballots were approved in haste by state governments. There were questions as to the checks to make sure ballots were authentic, mainly by matching signatures on ballots to registration records. Misunderstanding of how counting takes place and errors in the process, usually promptly corrected. Despite a majority of votes were on paper, recounts were seen as attempts to flip elections to Biden. Inaccurate voting registration records. The slowness of processing the mail votes in urban areas where most voters are non-White. Fear of the new.

There was an expansion of early, in-person voting that was seen to give an 'unfair' advantage to non-White voters.

I do hope that the Democratic Party controlled Presidency and (barley) both houses of Congress will hold hearings and investigations of elections that took place in 2020 to find the flaws to fix, make sure all who are qualified to vote can do so as well as try to improve respect and trust in future elections.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Allegations of electoral fraud - why, when, who etc

Sun Jan 17, 2021 1:54 pm

Much legwork was done to discredit mail-in voting in advance by Trump and the likes of Sean Hannity, Greg Kelly etc but things came to a head most after the election. As soon as Rudy G and his brethren of grifter liars like Tom Fitton and Jon Solomon got going, we started hearing about late night vote ‘dumps’ in PA, NV, and other places.

Although it was quickly explained this was the difference between states tabulating in-person and mail votes compared to states like FL and VA that counted mail-ins before election night, the converted weren’t listening. They overlooked the fact that CA and AK weren’t done counting for several weeks, but nobody cared because those states were not ‘in play’.
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Dutchy
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Re: Allegations of electoral fraud - why, when, who etc

Sun Jan 17, 2021 2:26 pm

Misinformation dropped dramatically the week after Twitter banned Trump

Online misinformation about election fraud plunged 73 percent after several social media sites suspended President Trump and key allies last week, research firm Zignal Labs has found,


I guess this is the answer the OP is seeking for.

And it could be so big, because of the echo chamber we seem all to live in.
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WIederling
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Re: Allegations of electoral fraud - why, when, who etc

Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:27 pm

ltbewr wrote:
Too many saw their use as giving an (unfair) advantage to non-White voters..


Could you explain the mechanism that gives non-whites an advantage from mail voting ?

is US -Mail tasked to "lose" white votes and how then do they know which are the white votes?
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seb146
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Re: Allegations of electoral fraud - why, when, who etc

Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:34 pm

WIederling wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
Too many saw their use as giving an (unfair) advantage to non-White voters..


Could you explain the mechanism that gives non-whites an advantage from mail voting ?

is US -Mail tasked to "lose" white votes and how then do they know which are the white votes?


Some states reduced the number of polling places in minority areas. So, minorities had to stand in long lines for hours to vote. Or, they could simply fill in their ballot at home and drop it at an approved site or even in the postal box.

https://www.governing.com/archive/sl-po ... oters.html
https://www.npr.org/2020/10/17/92452767 ... polling-pl
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... res-voting
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/20 ... ron-james/

The "party of Lincoln" hates for minorities to vote because those minorities will vote for Democrats.
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cpd
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Re: Allegations of electoral fraud - why, when, who etc

Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:55 pm

seb146 wrote:
WIederling wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
Too many saw their use as giving an (unfair) advantage to non-White voters..


Could you explain the mechanism that gives non-whites an advantage from mail voting ?

is US -Mail tasked to "lose" white votes and how then do they know which are the white votes?


Some states reduced the number of polling places in minority areas. So, minorities had to stand in long lines for hours to vote. Or, they could simply fill in their ballot at home and drop it at an approved site or even in the postal box.

https://www.governing.com/archive/sl-po ... oters.html
https://www.npr.org/2020/10/17/92452767 ... polling-pl
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... res-voting
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/20 ... ron-james/

The "party of Lincoln" hates for minorities to vote because those minorities will vote for Democrats.


So would white people be banned from not voting in person? I fail to see how these alternative methods to vote can’t also be used by everyone.

America has a lot of things to get in order with future elections and voting - enough polling stations shouldn’t be an issue. Perhaps it needs a foreign organisation to take over that because it’s obviously beyond the capacity of partisan USA to do it properly themselves.

In my country voting is never a problem, I wait maybe 5 minutes in the line at maximum. I’ve even voted on the way back from a morning bike ride a few times because the polling station was on my way. One time it was even an out of area vote. Easy.
 
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moo
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Re: Allegations of electoral fraud - why, when, who etc

Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:11 pm

cpd wrote:

So would white people be banned from not voting in person? I fail to see how these alternative methods to vote can’t also be used by everyone.


I think the issue is not about equal access to *a* voting method, it's about the ability to use that voting method.

White people are generally, in the US, better educated and better paid - they tend to work in jobs which will grant them time off to go vote in person, or they can afford to only work one job and thus vote in the evening or stand in line for an hour to vote etc etc.

Minorities are generally poorer educated and work in lower paid jobs - they often work multiple jobs, and they also often work in jobs that won't grant them time off to go vote. So when you are working 8am to 8pm or cant afford to go stand in a line for however long it takes, your access to that voting mechanism becomes theoretical at best.

Mail in balloting was deemed dangerous because it allowed those disenfranchised voters to get involved - fill out a form, get a ballot in the mail, fill it out, pop it back in the mail. Suddenly they don't have to work around their 2 jobs to go vote in person.

So it doesn't need white people to be banned from not voting in person - white people are generally well represented in US elections anyway, because invariably they can vote. This was about allowing minorities to vote, and not just theoretically allowing them to cast a ballot but actually giving them the ability to do it that doesn't make them weigh up their employment (ie if they are late, they get fired, or they work for an employer who won't give them time off to vote etc).
 
flyguy89
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Re: Allegations of electoral fraud - why, when, who etc

Mon Jan 18, 2021 12:07 am

One important item to note is that the idea of there being significant election fraud committed by the Democrats is not a new one. It’s long been a typical allegation from the right that “turn out among cemeteries is 100%” for Democrats or that Democrats pay homeless people to vote for them, or that Democrats are against voter IDs for suspicious reasons, etc. The only thing new this time around was the unprecedented expansion of mail-in voting which made many apprehensive and the fact that we now had a presidential candidate and major party pushing the narrative so strongly.

I don’t believe there was any systemic fraud and I could go on and on about the irresponsibility of Trump in trying to undermine the system, but the reality is that there is a minority but not insignificant chunk of the electorate who don’t have faith in the election process. That shouldn’t be ignored and needs to be somehow repaired without giving credence to Trump’s ridiculous allegations. It’s imperative for any democracy that people have institutional confidence.
 
cpd
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Re: Allegations of electoral fraud - why, when, who etc

Mon Jan 18, 2021 12:25 am

moo wrote:
cpd wrote:

So would white people be banned from not voting in person? I fail to see how these alternative methods to vote can’t also be used by everyone.


I think the issue is not about equal access to *a* voting method, it's about the ability to use that voting method.

White people are generally, in the US, better educated and better paid - they tend to work in jobs which will grant them time off to go vote in person, or they can afford to only work one job and thus vote in the evening or stand in line for an hour to vote etc etc.

Minorities are generally poorer educated and work in lower paid jobs - they often work multiple jobs, and they also often work in jobs that won't grant them time off to go vote. So when you are working 8am to 8pm or cant afford to go stand in a line for however long it takes, your access to that voting mechanism becomes theoretical at best.

Mail in balloting was deemed dangerous because it allowed those disenfranchised voters to get involved - fill out a form, get a ballot in the mail, fill it out, pop it back in the mail. Suddenly they don't have to work around their 2 jobs to go vote in person.



So it doesn't need white people to be banned from not voting in person - white people are generally well represented in US elections anyway, because invariably they can vote. This was about allowing minorities to vote, and not just theoretically allowing them to cast a ballot but actually giving them the ability to do it that doesn't make them weigh up their employment (ie if they are late, they get fired, or they work for an employer who won't give them time off to vote etc).


The whole thing is just quite ridiculous, provisioning for voting is a public service and a right as far as I'm concerned. Everything must be done so people can vote without difficulties, however it needs to be done. We have people in my country who also work long hours, but voting is something we all MUST do, it's required under the law and everyone does vote on the Saturday when it usually happens. There is usually a polling station somewhere near by and if you aren't at your local one, you can vote at another one. You can do postal votes (voting in advance) if you won't be available on the day of voting. I just don't see how it cannot be made to work in the USA.

It shouldn't be a problem of this minorities or majorities, everyone should be able to vote freely and without difficulty. If someone has to line up all day to vote, then that's a failure of the system that needs to be fixed. My view coming from a country that has mandatory voting. Our minorities are still able to vote.
 
flyguy89
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Re: Allegations of electoral fraud - why, when, who etc

Mon Jan 18, 2021 12:34 am

moo wrote:
they also often work in jobs that won't grant them time off to go vote.

The vast majority of US states do have laws on the books mandating employers provide employees time off to vote, although it isn’t always mandated that that time off should be paid.
 
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moo
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Re: Allegations of electoral fraud - why, when, who etc

Mon Jan 18, 2021 2:06 am

flyguy89 wrote:
moo wrote:
they also often work in jobs that won't grant them time off to go vote.

The vast majority of US states do have laws on the books mandating employers provide employees time off to vote, although it isn’t always mandated that that time off should be paid.


Michigan - no time off required by law
Georgia - unpaid time off required by law
Pennsylvania - no time off required by law
Wisconsin - unpaid time off required by law
Virginia - no time off required by law

Some of those were key battleground states this time round, and its hard to say that postal voting had no effect there...

Most of the states with paid time off laws seem to be those with substantial leanings one way or the other.
 
FGITD
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Re: Allegations of electoral fraud - why, when, who etc

Mon Jan 18, 2021 2:35 am

cpd wrote:

The whole thing is just quite ridiculous, provisioning for voting is a public service and a right as far as I'm concerned. Everything must be done so people can vote without difficulties, however it needs to be done. We have people in my country who also work long hours, but voting is something we all MUST do, it's required under the law and everyone does vote on the Saturday when it usually happens. There is usually a polling station somewhere near by and if you aren't at your local one, you can vote at another one. You can do postal votes (voting in advance) if you won't be available on the day of voting. I just don't see how it cannot be made to work in the USA.
.


American exceptionalism at work. Solutions that work the world over are always deemed impossible for the US. And as usual, the reasoning is most likely because “that’s how we did it 200 years ago so why change now”

The country is too hung up on the infallibility of doing things the way we used to.
 
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moo
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Re: Allegations of electoral fraud - why, when, who etc

Mon Jan 18, 2021 3:05 am

FGITD wrote:
cpd wrote:

The whole thing is just quite ridiculous, provisioning for voting is a public service and a right as far as I'm concerned. Everything must be done so people can vote without difficulties, however it needs to be done. We have people in my country who also work long hours, but voting is something we all MUST do, it's required under the law and everyone does vote on the Saturday when it usually happens. There is usually a polling station somewhere near by and if you aren't at your local one, you can vote at another one. You can do postal votes (voting in advance) if you won't be available on the day of voting. I just don't see how it cannot be made to work in the USA.
.


American exceptionalism at work. Solutions that work the world over are always deemed impossible for the US. And as usual, the reasoning is most likely because “that’s how we did it 200 years ago so why change now”

The country is too hung up on the infallibility of doing things the way we used to.


I don't even think its necessarily the solutions that are required either - in the UK, voting is on a Thursday (or is it Tuesday, I forget), but its not a national holiday, polling stations are open from 7am to 10pm, and postal votes are available for a multitude of reasons. And people get to vote, because there are enough polling stations that you never wait in a queue for longer than a few minutes (unless you hit it at 9.30pm at night... and even then, the polling station isnt allowed to close while there are people in the queue), or you get a postal or proxy vote just by asking. No ID required either.

And voter fraud is miniscule.
 
LNCS0930
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Re: Allegations of electoral fraud - why, when, who etc

Mon Jan 18, 2021 4:04 am

IMO the margins Trump won Florida Ohio and Iowa by not to mention all of these bellwether counties pretty much tell you this election was stolen. You don’t win those states, especially Florida by that margin and lose Arizona Pennsylvania Michigan Wisconsin and Georgia. Historically it’s never occurred for a reason. I’m not going to even try to fathom how democrats did it or how long it was planned for but there’s evidence it was planned for months based off numerous mail ins from dead voters requesting ballots as far as back as July and august
 
luckyone
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Re: Allegations of electoral fraud - why, when, who etc

Mon Jan 18, 2021 4:36 am

LNCS0930 wrote:
IMO the margins Trump won Florida Ohio and Iowa by not to mention all of these bellwether counties pretty much tell you this election was stolen. You don’t win those states, especially Florida by that margin and lose Arizona Pennsylvania Michigan Wisconsin and Georgia. Historically it’s never occurred for a reason. I’m not going to even try to fathom how democrats did it or how long it was planned for but there’s evidence it was planned for months based off numerous mail ins from dead voters requesting ballots as far as back as July and august

In your opinion...welp, there are opinions, and there are facts. As laid bare in over sixty lawsuits...your opinion isn’t based on facts.

In my “opinion,” in the long run the amount of litigation Trump& Co pursued after the election may very well be the stupidest thing they could have done. It ensures that only the drunkest of the KoolAid drinkers continue to fervently believe. Not everybody else is so quick to suspend their disbelief.
Last edited by luckyone on Mon Jan 18, 2021 4:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: Allegations of electoral fraud - why, when, who etc

Mon Jan 18, 2021 4:36 am

LNCS0930 wrote:
You don’t win those states, especially Florida by that margin and lose Arizona Pennsylvania Michigan Wisconsin and Georgia. Historically it’s never occurred for a reason.


And what would that reason be?
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LNCS0930
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Re: Allegations of electoral fraud - why, when, who etc

Mon Jan 18, 2021 4:38 am

luckyone wrote:
LNCS0930 wrote:
IMO the margins Trump won Florida Ohio and Iowa by not to mention all of these bellwether counties pretty much tell you this election was stolen. You don’t win those states, especially Florida by that margin and lose Arizona Pennsylvania Michigan Wisconsin and Georgia. Historically it’s never occurred for a reason. I’m not going to even try to fathom how democrats did it or how long it was planned for but there’s evidence it was planned for months based off numerous mail ins from dead voters requesting ballots as far as back as July and august

In your opinion...welp, there are opinions, and there are facts. As laid bare in over sixty lawsuits...your opinion isn’t based on facts.


Most of the throw outs were by democratic judges who basically wanted evidence beyond anything people could provide. You were never going to prove this was stolen because they planned this out so well and for so long and they threatened anyone who was involved that if they squeaked they’d probably be killed. It was most likely months and months of filling out mail in ballots so that they had several hundred thousand of them in those several states so that they could easily overcome any margin they needed
 
LNCS0930
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Re: Allegations of electoral fraud - why, when, who etc

Mon Jan 18, 2021 4:39 am

Francoflier wrote:
LNCS0930 wrote:
You don’t win those states, especially Florida by that margin and lose Arizona Pennsylvania Michigan Wisconsin and Georgia. Historically it’s never occurred for a reason.


And what would that reason be?


I don’t know but you don’t suddenly see bellwether trends all flip miraculously in one cycle
 
luckyone
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Re: Allegations of electoral fraud - why, when, who etc

Mon Jan 18, 2021 4:45 am

LNCS0930 wrote:
luckyone wrote:
LNCS0930 wrote:
IMO the margins Trump won Florida Ohio and Iowa by not to mention all of these bellwether counties pretty much tell you this election was stolen. You don’t win those states, especially Florida by that margin and lose Arizona Pennsylvania Michigan Wisconsin and Georgia. Historically it’s never occurred for a reason. I’m not going to even try to fathom how democrats did it or how long it was planned for but there’s evidence it was planned for months based off numerous mail ins from dead voters requesting ballots as far as back as July and august

In your opinion...welp, there are opinions, and there are facts. As laid bare in over sixty lawsuits...your opinion isn’t based on facts.


Most of the throw outs were by democratic judges who basically wanted evidence beyond anything people could provide. You were never going to prove this was stolen because they planned this out so well and for so long and they threatened anyone who was involved that if they squeaked they’d probably be killed. It was most likely months and months of filling out mail in ballots so that they had several hundred thousand of them in those several states so that they could easily overcome any margin they needed

So now it’s the conspiracy is true because there’s no way to prove it. I love circular reasoning. Oh precious, it wouldn’t matter that “most” of them are Democrat appointees—they weren’t but you keep banging that drum if you please. It only matters that the Trump and other GOP appointee judges did the same thing.
 
FGITD
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Re: Allegations of electoral fraud - why, when, who etc

Mon Jan 18, 2021 4:46 am

LNCS0930 wrote:
Francoflier wrote:
LNCS0930 wrote:
You don’t win those states, especially Florida by that margin and lose Arizona Pennsylvania Michigan Wisconsin and Georgia. Historically it’s never occurred for a reason.


And what would that reason be?


I don’t know but you don’t suddenly see bellwether trends all flip miraculously in one cycle



Following that logic, this election is 100% fraud free. there’s never been major election theft/fraud in the US, ergo it’s impossible that it happened this time. My solid evidence is that it’s never happened before, so it can’t happen this time.
 
luckyone
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Re: Allegations of electoral fraud - why, when, who etc

Mon Jan 18, 2021 4:51 am

LNCS0930 wrote:
Francoflier wrote:
LNCS0930 wrote:
You don’t win those states, especially Florida by that margin and lose Arizona Pennsylvania Michigan Wisconsin and Georgia. Historically it’s never occurred for a reason.


And what would that reason be?


I don’t know but you don’t suddenly see bellwether trends all flip miraculously in one cycle

Precious, Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Wisconsin weren’t miraculous flips. They’re states that have voted blue for many years that barely went Trump once and decided better of it. Bless your heart.
 
art
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Re: Allegations of electoral fraud - why, when, who etc

Mon Jan 18, 2021 5:23 am

LNCS0930 wrote:
Most of the throw outs were by democratic judges who basically wanted evidence beyond anything people could provide.


That statement is a damning indictment of the judiciary being appointed on a political basis. It means that every judgement is open to speculation that it is motivated politically. And where a judgement concerns deciding who should hold power, even more so.

I can see that where judges are appointed on any basis except legal ability, their judgements are open to mistrust. That undermines confidence in the law.

What a daft way of doing things!
 
SL1200MK2
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Re: Allegations of electoral fraud - why, when, who etc

Mon Jan 18, 2021 5:25 am

FGITD wrote:
LNCS0930 wrote:
Francoflier wrote:

And what would that reason be?


I don’t know but you don’t suddenly see bellwether trends all flip miraculously in one cycle



Following that logic, this election is 100% fraud free. there’s never been major election theft/fraud in the US, ergo it’s impossible that it happened this time. My solid evidence is that it’s never happened before, so it can’t happen this time.


So, what you’re saying is that because it was so well-orchestrated by the democrats, proving it is impossible. But, because you believe something hasn’t happened before, which is untrue, it’s not possible for it to happen in the future. Is it at all possible that your guy was so terribly bad at his job, that he lost the election?
 
flyguy89
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Re: Allegations of electoral fraud - why, when, who etc

Mon Jan 18, 2021 5:40 am

LNCS0930 wrote:
You don’t win those states, especially Florida by that margin and lose Arizona Pennsylvania Michigan Wisconsin and Georgia. Historically it’s never occurred for a reason.

Reason being what exactly? This does not equal any kind of proof the election was stolen, especially when there’s any number of other more plausible reasons. Just look at Arizona...the state GOP party there is a basket case that even the national GOP is criticizing, to say nothing of the garbage candidates they’ve been putting forward. So garbage that they’ve driven both senate seats to flip blue.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Allegations of electoral fraud - why, when, who etc

Mon Jan 18, 2021 5:47 am

LNCS0930 wrote:
Francoflier wrote:
LNCS0930 wrote:
You don’t win those states, especially Florida by that margin and lose Arizona Pennsylvania Michigan Wisconsin and Georgia. Historically it’s never occurred for a reason.


And what would that reason be?


I don’t know but you don’t suddenly see bellwether trends all flip miraculously in one cycle


There’s nothing ‘miraculous’ about it. This is what happens when folks can’t data science.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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Francoflier
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Re: Allegations of electoral fraud - why, when, who etc

Mon Jan 18, 2021 5:59 am

LNCS0930 wrote:
Francoflier wrote:
LNCS0930 wrote:
You don’t win those states, especially Florida by that margin and lose Arizona Pennsylvania Michigan Wisconsin and Georgia. Historically it’s never occurred for a reason.


And what would that reason be?


I don’t know but you don’t suddenly see bellwether trends all flip miraculously in one cycle


But the trends did not flip miraculously. That would be ignoring a few things like:
-The demographic movement and tendencies, especially around urban centers
-The fact that minorities and certain social classes that, for long, had been hindered from voting now had easier access to the polls thanks to mail-in voting (and efforts by local political activists to get them to vote)
-The higher than usual turn out caused by the ultra-divisive and hate-peddling President who, intentionally, fostered such an intense emotional response from every side that he pushed people out to the booths.

Unsurprisingly, Trump got ousted by the demographics he hurt the most. His policies continually attacked the lower classes and left them extremely vulnerable in a crisis he did (and still does) absolutely nothing about.

In short, an unprecedented President/candidate caused an unprecedented result.

As for the rest, there's simply no evidence of any wrongdoing despite the most scrutiny an American election has ever been under, including by thousands of people would would have rather seen Trump win.
The problem with that theory is that there is simply no way of hiding what would have amounted to falsifying hundreds of thousands of votes, if not millions. Not under the level of auditing this election was subjected to.
As for the 'Democratic' judges fallacy, well unfortunately, none of the Republican judges involved seem to have seen anything of interest either, even the ones Trump himself appointed. We're also all still waiting for the proof that Trump, Giuliani and the gang promised. Surely if there was anything concrete, at all, it would have been parroted to death on all the sympathetic medias at least.
Unfortunately, saying "I don't know how they did it, but they did it" isn't saying much other than expressing a subjective and opinionated state of mind.

The biggest evidence for me has to be that if anyone would have been able to mount such a colossal and coordinated covert operation on a national scale, it certainly wouldn't have been the Democratic party. :lol:
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
GDB
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Re: Allegations of electoral fraud - why, when, who etc

Mon Jan 18, 2021 7:41 am

moo wrote:
FGITD wrote:
cpd wrote:

The whole thing is just quite ridiculous, provisioning for voting is a public service and a right as far as I'm concerned. Everything must be done so people can vote without difficulties, however it needs to be done. We have people in my country who also work long hours, but voting is something we all MUST do, it's required under the law and everyone does vote on the Saturday when it usually happens. There is usually a polling station somewhere near by and if you aren't at your local one, you can vote at another one. You can do postal votes (voting in advance) if you won't be available on the day of voting. I just don't see how it cannot be made to work in the USA.
.


American exceptionalism at work. Solutions that work the world over are always deemed impossible for the US. And as usual, the reasoning is most likely because “that’s how we did it 200 years ago so why change now”

The country is too hung up on the infallibility of doing things the way we used to.


I don't even think its necessarily the solutions that are required either - in the UK, voting is on a Thursday (or is it Tuesday, I forget), but its not a national holiday, polling stations are open from 7am to 10pm, and postal votes are available for a multitude of reasons. And people get to vote, because there are enough polling stations that you never wait in a queue for longer than a few minutes (unless you hit it at 9.30pm at night... and even then, the polling station isnt allowed to close while there are people in the queue), or you get a postal or proxy vote just by asking. No ID required either.

And voter fraud is miniscule.


It's Thursday but don't speak too soon, the current UK government are 'looking at' more stringent ID's, despite as you say, fraud being so tiny it barely exists.
Cameron's mob made it harder for for example students in residence to vote.
The current bunch of c***s are way worse of course.

But the reason for decades of voter restrictions in GOP states is their way of undermining the Voting Rights Acts of the 1960's.

Reason being and some have been caught out admitting this, they would never win the White House again, likely not the two houses either, with a voting system that did not discriminate against the poor and minorities.
As their major policies on things like Birth Control, Health, no limits on gun ownership and others are not popular.

One thing is for sure, the rest of the world will take no lectures about democracy from the US.
 
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scbriml
Posts: 19538
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Re: Allegations of electoral fraud - why, when, who etc

Mon Jan 18, 2021 8:27 am

LNCS0930 wrote:
IMO the margins Trump won Florida Ohio and Iowa by not to mention all of these bellwether counties pretty much tell you this election was stolen. You don’t win those states, especially Florida by that margin and lose Arizona Pennsylvania Michigan Wisconsin and Georgia. Historically it’s never occurred for a reason. I’m not going to even try to fathom how democrats did it or how long it was planned for but there’s evidence it was planned for months based off numerous mail ins from dead voters requesting ballots as far as back as July and august


You should have been part of Trump's legal team, because, just like them, you've got no evidence of "widespread voter fraud" nor of "millions of votes being flipped".

LNCS0930 wrote:
Most of the throw outs were by democratic judges who basically wanted evidence beyond anything people could provide.


Judges wanted evidence? Outrageous! A lot of cases were rejected by Trump appointed judges, including the very conservatively biased Supreme Court where Trump appointed fully 1/3 of the judges. So that's another vacuous argument that doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

LNCS0930 wrote:
You were never going to prove this was stolen because they planned this out so well and for so long and they threatened anyone who was involved that if they squeaked they’d probably be killed.


Now you're just getting into serous tinfoil hat territory - the bigger a conspiracy is, the harder it is to keep it quiet. Just like all those idiots who believe the moon landing were faked, do you honestly think it would be possible to keep that quiet? One would also be tempted to ask, if the democrats did such a great job of fixing the presidential election, why didn't they fix the down ballot to give themselves a better senate majority? :scratchchin:

SL1200MK2 wrote:
Is it at all possible that your guy was so terribly bad at his job, that he lost the election?


Now that's an option I hadn't considered! :rotfl:
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bennett123
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Re: Allegations of electoral fraud - why, when, who etc

Mon Jan 18, 2021 8:41 am

In Arizona, I doubt that the hostility between Donald Trump and John McCain helped him. Especially with Military or Ex Military voters and their families.
 
WIederling
Posts: 9772
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Re: Allegations of electoral fraud - why, when, who etc

Mon Jan 18, 2021 9:50 am

flyguy89 wrote:
....... but the reality is that there is a minority but not insignificant chunk of the electorate who don’t have faith in the election process. That shouldn’t be ignored and needs to be somehow repaired without giving credence to Trump’s ridiculous allegations. It’s imperative for any democracy that people have institutional confidence.


How should the DEMs repair something that was broken by GOP and continues to be broken by GOP activists?

This seems to be a regular recurrence in the American Society.
invariably others have to submit to measures that are needed to cope with the professed inability of taking a grip on themselves for certain groups.
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scbriml
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Re: Allegations of electoral fraud - why, when, who etc

Mon Jan 18, 2021 10:13 am

We could try and maintain a list of suspected voter fraud cases. Once convicted, this would be proven fraud.

Raquel Rodriguez - arrested in Texas for allegedly "assisting people to vote".
https://www.houstonchronicle.com/politi ... 867537.php

Bruce Bartman - voted on behalf of his dead mother, also registered his dead mother-in-law to vote. Since this guy voted Trump, this fraud probably doesn't count. :sarcastic:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/23/tech ... gin-google

Other than these two, I'm struggling to find anything else. There must be more, right?
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WIederling
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Re: Allegations of electoral fraud - why, when, who etc

Mon Jan 18, 2021 10:25 am

scbriml wrote:
We could try and maintain a list of suspected voter fraud cases. Once convicted, this would be proven fraud.

Raquel Rodriguez - arrested in Texas for allegedly "assisting people to vote".
https://www.houstonchronicle.com/politi ... 867537.php

Bruce Bartman - voted on behalf of his dead mother, also registered his dead mother-in-law to vote. Since this guy voted Trump, this fraud probably doesn't count. :sarcastic:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/23/tech ... gin-google

Other than these two, I'm struggling to find anything else. There must be more, right?


vote manipulations tend to be associated with conservatives.
( it is a predominantly CDU/CSU/+further right thing here in Germany. includes trucking care home inmates to the voting stations and assisting in "making the right cross" or the catholic priest giving "advice" during Sunday church )
Murphy is an optimist
 
stratclub
Posts: 1378
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Re: Allegations of electoral fraud - why, when, who etc

Mon Jan 18, 2021 10:31 am

Then there is this.........
https://www.rt.com/usa/509674-michigan- ... ors-fraud/

There is a lot more irrefutable evidence than the hack-able Dominion voting machines that the MSM lied about. Why don't the Democrats want forensic audits done and why was one location shredding ballets if ballets by law are suppose to be held onto for 22 months? What are they hiding? You would think they would jump at the chance to prove Trump wrong if they had nothing to hide.
The judges did not reject the validity of the evidence, they refused to look at it. Of course the MSM lied about that as well.
 
Kent350787
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Re: Allegations of electoral fraud - why, when, who etc

Mon Jan 18, 2021 10:59 am

stratclub wrote:
Then there is this.........
https://www.rt.com/usa/509674-michigan- ... ors-fraud/

There is a lot more irrefutable evidence than the hack-able Dominion voting machines that the MSM lied about. Why don't the Democrats want forensic audits done and why was one location shredding ballets if ballets by law are suppose to be held onto for 22 months? What are they hiding? You would think they would jump at the chance to prove Trump wrong if they had nothing to hide.
The judges did not reject the validity of the evidence, they refused to look at it. Of course the MSM lied about that as well.


Why do the Russian’s seem to have more evidence of fraud than Trump and his supporters? Odd?

But Russia has never sought to influence US elections has it?
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flyguy89
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Re: Allegations of electoral fraud - why, when, who etc

Mon Jan 18, 2021 11:10 am

WIederling wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
....... but the reality is that there is a minority but not insignificant chunk of the electorate who don’t have faith in the election process. That shouldn’t be ignored and needs to be somehow repaired without giving credence to Trump’s ridiculous allegations. It’s imperative for any democracy that people have institutional confidence.


How should the DEMs repair something that was broken by GOP and continues to be broken by GOP activists?

Don't really know honestly, but it is nonetheless a problem that needs to be addressed.
 
WIederling
Posts: 9772
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Re: Allegations of electoral fraud - why, when, who etc

Mon Jan 18, 2021 11:21 am

stratclub wrote:
Then there is this.........
https://www.rt.com/usa/509674-michigan- ... ors-fraud/

There is a lot more irrefutable evidence than the hack-able Dominion voting machines that the MSM lied about. Why don't the Democrats want forensic audits done and why was one location shredding ballets if ballets by law are suppose to be held onto for 22 months? What are they hiding? You would think they would jump at the chance to prove Trump wrong if they had nothing to hide.
The judges did not reject the validity of the evidence, they refused to look at it. Of course the MSM lied about that as well.



manipulatable / manipulated voting machines are a longstanding issue.
( afair the one of the first public cases was around the Diebold machines ( Bush43, first and second term?
see documentary "Hacking_Democracy" ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacking_Democracy )

all the software driven "thingies" allow systemic attacks to change the outcome
on a large scale far beyond single manipulations.

Reason why for example Germany still uses paper ballots and public hand counting, anybody can watch.
For manipulation there you need collusion of all bystanders. difficult.
Murphy is an optimist
 
luckyone
Posts: 3605
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:50 pm

Re: Allegations of electoral fraud - why, when, who etc

Mon Jan 18, 2021 3:07 pm

stratclub wrote:
Then there is this.........
https://www.rt.com/usa/509674-michigan- ... ors-fraud/

There is a lot more irrefutable evidence than the hack-able Dominion voting machines that the MSM lied about. Why don't the Democrats want forensic audits done and why was one location shredding ballets if ballets by law are suppose to be held onto for 22 months? What are they hiding? You would think they would jump at the chance to prove Trump wrong if they had nothing to hide.
The judges did not reject the validity of the evidence, they refused to look at it. Of course the MSM lied about that as well.

Oh bless your heart, the Antrim County thing was beaten to death. As you’ll note, that was done over a month ago in December and not even Sidney Powell or Lin Wood were stupid enough to try to use that report in court. And “MSM” is a knee jerk excuse for people who don’t hear what they want to hear. The group who did the audit—ASOG—was founded by Russell Ramsland, Jr, who in case you forgot couldn’t even get the difference between Minnesota and Michigan straight.

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/12/audit ... cy-theory/
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 13325
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Re: Allegations of electoral fraud - why, when, who etc

Mon Jan 18, 2021 3:37 pm

stratclub wrote:
Then there is this.........
https://www.rt.com/usa/509674-michigan- ... ors-fraud/

There is a lot more irrefutable evidence than the hack-able Dominion voting machines that the MSM lied about. Why don't the Democrats want forensic audits done and why was one location shredding ballets if ballets by law are suppose to be held onto for 22 months? What are they hiding? You would think they would jump at the chance to prove Trump wrong if they had nothing to hide.
The judges did not reject the validity of the evidence, they refused to look at it. Of course the MSM lied about that as well.


Debunked horse droppings...nexxxxt. Stunning how much this Lin Wood / Sidney Powell crap gets recycled again and again with nothing more than affidavits and sham reports for ‘proof’.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
LNCS0930
Posts: 159
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Re: Allegations of electoral fraud - why, when, who etc

Mon Jan 18, 2021 3:47 pm

bennett123 wrote:
In Arizona, I doubt that the hostility between Donald Trump and John McCain helped him. Especially with Military or Ex Military voters and their families.


I think any other GOP candidate wins Arizona given how tight it was this year when you consider as you pointed out the McCain/Trump crap storm from back in 2017. McCain for a better sense of words was sort of an a-hole but Trump didn’t need to point that out and attack him. It was well known in political circles that McCain was a good colleague but not the nicest guy in the world. I feel Arizona is still very much a winnable state for republicans where as Georgia is 100% gone. It’s the new VA or CO I think. You’ll begin seeing several states move the next few cycles. WI I think might to lean red, IA is now solid red as is OH and FL is close. NV I have a feeling is more swing now vs solid blue as it was from 08-14. TX could become swing as well. I don’t know what to think about MI. It might become more in play with the right candidate for the GOP
 
afcjets
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Re: Allegations of electoral fraud - why, when, who etc

Mon Jan 18, 2021 4:41 pm

art wrote:
I am not interested here in whether these allegations are true or false. Rather I am interested in the mechanisms that lead to large numbers of people coming to a belief that defies any need for supporting evidence.


Your second statement demonstrates you're totally interested in whether they're true or false.
 
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seb146
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Re: Allegations of electoral fraud - why, when, who etc

Mon Jan 18, 2021 8:31 pm

cpd wrote:
seb146 wrote:
WIederling wrote:

Could you explain the mechanism that gives non-whites an advantage from mail voting ?

is US -Mail tasked to "lose" white votes and how then do they know which are the white votes?


Some states reduced the number of polling places in minority areas. So, minorities had to stand in long lines for hours to vote. Or, they could simply fill in their ballot at home and drop it at an approved site or even in the postal box.

https://www.governing.com/archive/sl-po ... oters.html
https://www.npr.org/2020/10/17/92452767 ... polling-pl
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... res-voting
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/20 ... ron-james/

The "party of Lincoln" hates for minorities to vote because those minorities will vote for Democrats.


So would white people be banned from not voting in person? I fail to see how these alternative methods to vote can’t also be used by everyone.


That is the point, though. Republicans worked very hard to keep minorities and Democrats from voting. Either by watering down the Democratic vote or by closing polling stations. When vote by mail became a thing, Republicans said those votes were not legal. Vote by mail is not limited to one party or one skin color. Republicans want everyone to stand in line on their own time and wait which means not everyone can vote while Democrats are working hard to give the voting opportunity to all legal Americans.

cpd wrote:
America has a lot of things to get in order with future elections and voting - enough polling stations shouldn’t be an issue. Perhaps it needs a foreign organisation to take over that because it’s obviously beyond the capacity of partisan USA to do it properly themselves.

In my country voting is never a problem, I wait maybe 5 minutes in the line at maximum. I’ve even voted on the way back from a morning bike ride a few times because the polling station was on my way. One time it was even an out of area vote. Easy.


Another issue is that people who have to vote in person can not get time off work. This is where vote by mail is a good thing. But, again, Republicans hate it.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
LNCS0930
Posts: 159
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Re: Allegations of electoral fraud - why, when, who etc

Mon Jan 18, 2021 9:09 pm

seb146 wrote:
cpd wrote:
seb146 wrote:

Some states reduced the number of polling places in minority areas. So, minorities had to stand in long lines for hours to vote. Or, they could simply fill in their ballot at home and drop it at an approved site or even in the postal box.

https://www.governing.com/archive/sl-po ... oters.html
https://www.npr.org/2020/10/17/92452767 ... polling-pl
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... res-voting
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/20 ... ron-james/

The "party of Lincoln" hates for minorities to vote because those minorities will vote for Democrats.


So would white people be banned from not voting in person? I fail to see how these alternative methods to vote can’t also be used by everyone.


That is the point, though. Republicans worked very hard to keep minorities and Democrats from voting. Either by watering down the Democratic vote or by closing polling stations. When vote by mail became a thing, Republicans said those votes were not legal. Vote by mail is not limited to one party or one skin color. Republicans want everyone to stand in line on their own time and wait which means not everyone can vote while Democrats are working hard to give the voting opportunity to all legal Americans.

cpd wrote:
America has a lot of things to get in order with future elections and voting - enough polling stations shouldn’t be an issue. Perhaps it needs a foreign organisation to take over that because it’s obviously beyond the capacity of partisan USA to do it properly themselves.

In my country voting is never a problem, I wait maybe 5 minutes in the line at maximum. I’ve even voted on the way back from a morning bike ride a few times because the polling station was on my way. One time it was even an out of area vote. Easy.


Another issue is that people who have to vote in person can not get time off work. This is where vote by mail is a good thing. But, again, Republicans hate it.


The problem with vote by mail as we saw in his election is two fold. One, states like PA and NV which just said to hell with it and mailed ballots to every Tom Dick and Harry out there without making people specifically request one. As a result there were likely people who voted both by mail and in person but more likely there were people and operatatives on both sides finding ballots sent to people who moved or died and illegally filling them out in their names.

Second, it led to a bunch of uninformed idiots voting who never voted before and likely will never vote again. If we had a fair unbiased media that’s fine but many of these people were suckered into voting for Biden based on media lies about Trump or from their friends. People who aren’t educated about the candidates should never be voting
 
luckyone
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Re: Allegations of electoral fraud - why, when, who etc

Mon Jan 18, 2021 9:28 pm

LNCS0930 wrote:
One, states like PA and NV which just said to hell with it and mailed ballots to every Tom Dick and Harry out there without making people specifically request one

In Pennsylvania that was a Republican bill that they didn't bother to complain about until after the primaries and the election. Litigated extensively, resulting in those complaints being unfounded.

LNCS0930 wrote:
Second, it led to a bunch of uninformed idiots voting who never voted before and likely will never vote again. If we had a fair unbiased media that’s fine but many of these people were suckered into voting for Biden based on media lies about Trump or from their friends. People who aren’t educated about the candidates should never be voting

Oh precious. If that were true then Trump wouldn't have received the second highest votes ever in a Presidential election.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Allegations of electoral fraud - why, when, who etc

Mon Jan 18, 2021 10:31 pm

LNCS0930 wrote:
One, states like PA and NV which just said to hell with it and mailed ballots to every Tom Dick and Harry out there without making people specifically request one. As a result there were likely people who voted both by mail and in person but more likely there were people and operatatives on both sides finding ballots sent to people who moved or died and illegally filling them out in their names.


Do you really expect us non-Americans to believe that one of the World’s leading democracies cannot work out if someone votes by mail and in person? In the UK, I vote by post, but I can’t vote in person because my name will be missing from the list of in-person voters at my local polling station. But according to Trump and his cultists, this is beyond America! Seriously?

As posted upthread, I’m aware of only one single example of a dead person voting and that person voted for Trump.

LNCS0930 wrote:
Second, it led to a bunch of uninformed idiots voting who never voted before and likely will never vote again. If we had a fair unbiased media that’s fine but many of these people were suckered into voting for Biden based on media lies about Trump or from their friends. People who aren’t educated about the candidates should never be voting


From what I’ve seen, many Trump supporters are just as uneducated and brainwashed as you claim Biden voters are. If I’m not mistaken, the only qualifier for being eligible to vote, is age.
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There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
cpd
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Re: Allegations of electoral fraud - why, when, who etc

Mon Jan 18, 2021 11:26 pm

LNCS0930 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
cpd wrote:

So would white people be banned from not voting in person? I fail to see how these alternative methods to vote can’t also be used by everyone.


That is the point, though. Republicans worked very hard to keep minorities and Democrats from voting. Either by watering down the Democratic vote or by closing polling stations. When vote by mail became a thing, Republicans said those votes were not legal. Vote by mail is not limited to one party or one skin color. Republicans want everyone to stand in line on their own time and wait which means not everyone can vote while Democrats are working hard to give the voting opportunity to all legal Americans.

cpd wrote:
America has a lot of things to get in order with future elections and voting - enough polling stations shouldn’t be an issue. Perhaps it needs a foreign organisation to take over that because it’s obviously beyond the capacity of partisan USA to do it properly themselves.

In my country voting is never a problem, I wait maybe 5 minutes in the line at maximum. I’ve even voted on the way back from a morning bike ride a few times because the polling station was on my way. One time it was even an out of area vote. Easy.


Another issue is that people who have to vote in person can not get time off work. This is where vote by mail is a good thing. But, again, Republicans hate it.


The problem with vote by mail as we saw in his election is two fold. One, states like PA and NV which just said to hell with it and mailed ballots to every Tom Dick and Harry out there without making people specifically request one. As a result there were likely people who voted both by mail and in person but more likely there were people and operatatives on both sides finding ballots sent to people who moved or died and illegally filling them out in their names.

Second, it led to a bunch of uninformed idiots voting who never voted before and likely will never vote again. If we had a fair unbiased media that’s fine but many of these people were suckered into voting for Biden based on media lies about Trump or from their friends. People who aren’t educated about the candidates should never be voting


How difficult is it to simply exclude someone from in person voting if they mailed in a postal vote?

Other countries manage this problem without any drama at all. The USA doesn’t want to try and manage it, the USA just comes up with excuses to maintain the inadequate processes of old.

I don’t buy into these excuses. If the powers that be cannot make this work properly, they need to find a different job and let qualified people sort out this once and for all, then we will hear no more complaints from either side.

Apologies if that sounds blunt, but I deal with far more complex things in my day job, little things like postal voting are very simple in comparison.
 
GDB
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Re: Allegations of electoral fraud - why, when, who etc

Tue Jan 19, 2021 12:50 am

cpd wrote:
LNCS0930 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

That is the point, though. Republicans worked very hard to keep minorities and Democrats from voting. Either by watering down the Democratic vote or by closing polling stations. When vote by mail became a thing, Republicans said those votes were not legal. Vote by mail is not limited to one party or one skin color. Republicans want everyone to stand in line on their own time and wait which means not everyone can vote while Democrats are working hard to give the voting opportunity to all legal Americans.



Another issue is that people who have to vote in person can not get time off work. This is where vote by mail is a good thing. But, again, Republicans hate it.


The problem with vote by mail as we saw in his election is two fold. One, states like PA and NV which just said to hell with it and mailed ballots to every Tom Dick and Harry out there without making people specifically request one. As a result there were likely people who voted both by mail and in person but more likely there were people and operatatives on both sides finding ballots sent to people who moved or died and illegally filling them out in their names.

Second, it led to a bunch of uninformed idiots voting who never voted before and likely will never vote again. If we had a fair unbiased media that’s fine but many of these people were suckered into voting for Biden based on media lies about Trump or from their friends. People who aren’t educated about the candidates should never be voting


How difficult is it to simply exclude someone from in person voting if they mailed in a postal vote?

Other countries manage this problem without any drama at all. The USA doesn’t want to try and manage it, the USA just comes up with excuses to maintain the inadequate processes of old.

I don’t buy into these excuses. If the powers that be cannot make this work properly, they need to find a different job and let qualified people sort out this once and for all, then we will hear no more complaints from either side.

Apologies if that sounds blunt, but I deal with far more complex things in my day job, little things like postal voting are very simple in comparison.


It's not a case of 'cannot', it's 'will not' as it is deliberate.
It took nearly 200 years after 'the world's greatest democracy' to allow equal voting rights across the states, no longer based on race.
Then the 'fightback' began, starting with the previous GOP crook POTUS who started the political pivot towards racial animus, of which the state by GOP state undermining of voting rights began.
Same with the EC, trot out all the excuses you like, it's a relic of the 18th century maintained into the 21st, again for a reason.

When LBJ got the Voting Rights Act through, he said it would lose the Democrats the South for a generation, he knew the backlash would come, just underestimated for how long.
Coming from there, he understood all too well the likely reaction.

I know it is all seen as a work in progress, a great experiment, though one step forward, half a step back seems a better reading.
Trump and his mob, not including the actual mob seen in DC, really wanted to create a new Confederacy.
At least some of the latter had that actual flag when they stormed in.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Allegations of electoral fraud - why, when, who etc

Tue Jan 19, 2021 1:03 am

cpd wrote:
How difficult is it to simply exclude someone from in person voting if they mailed in a postal vote?


Apparently it's quite hard. :lol:
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