In Sweden and Chile this has been a major scandal the last few years;

-------------------------

At two months old, Maria Diemar was flown to Sweden to be adopted. Years later, she tracked down her birth mother, who said her baby had been taken against her will. Now investigations are showing that she was one of thousands stolen from their parents

Alejandro Vega’s 2017 documentary described the adoptions as “a very lucrative business in a dark period”. “The situation in which our country lived – a state of emergency under a dictatorship – turned even maternity units into businesses,” Vega told me. It is unclear how much international adoption agencies knew about the activities of their networks in Chile. At the very least, it seems that some agencies made little effort to find out the truth behind the stories about stolen children.



https://www.theguardian.com/news/2021/j ... ion-sweden

Very interesting moral dilemma. Thanks for posting.

About the mother of the adopted woman:
"She worked as a live-in maid for a wealthy family, and aside from her employer, told no one of her pregnancy. She had been raised in the countryside with no formal education. She already had two children, who were being raised by her parents, and she expected they would do the same for her third. But her employer had other plans. ... "

About the mother of her adopted brother:
"His mother, though young and alone when she had him, had stayed in school and gone on to graduate from university. She teaches history and geography at a high school, and she and her husband have three sons. "

It doesn't sound to me that random children were taken away. And wasn't it best for everybody involved?

Liberal societies have a dilemma:
"Freedom to choose also always means freedom to choose wrong. "
Milton Friedman

So if a society desires equal chances for children, can social weak people be allowed to get as many children as they please? Of course one can say that's nobody's business. But then it also isn't the taxpayer's business to prevent poverty.

I have seen enough poverty in India. I take Pinochet's side.

Also very interesting:
The adopted man got highly educated parents in one of the advanced countries of the world. His life should have been so much better than anything he could expect in Chile. But he never felt home. He wanted to go back to his roots.

Aren't we meant to be racist?
Hitler wrote in "Mein Kampf" what elevating feeling it is to totally merge with the group marching in step during a torchlight procession in uniform.
What are sport events in which people like to wear jerseys of their team?
I believe because of my autistic tendencies I hardly ever bother with these group events. But one can't deny such emotion exists in many people. And the unity of a group is often strengthened through demarcation towards other groups.

At a theater play in my son's school the prince had very dark skin. My first thought: " That doesn't fit. "
I felt embarrassed over my own racism. Or better: I did't knew till then I was so racist.

Also strange: I feel more empathy with somebody relatively poor in Germany than somebody absolutely poor in India.

Since my son is mixed I hope this post is not understood to try to promote racism.
It's just reading of this man brought up old, troublesome thoughts.

Monkeys form groups.
The US is interesting in this context. Since there are all kind of colours available building groups based on race makes less and less sense.
I find it fabulous that young, racist Biden in his old age chooses a coloured woman as his deputy.
As a German I find it a bit odd that Hollywood movies mostly show the US flag. But then it's a nationalism of inclusion, just like in India.

So racism doesn't seem to be an absolute emotion, but a very strong one.

Sokes wrote:

Very interesting moral dilemma. Thanks for posting.

About the mother of the adopted woman:
"She worked as a live-in maid for a wealthy family, and aside from her employer, told no one of her pregnancy. She had been raised in the countryside with no formal education. She already had two children, who were being raised by her parents, and she expected they would do the same for her third. But her employer had other plans. ... "

About the mother of her adopted brother:
"His mother, though young and alone when she had him, had stayed in school and gone on to graduate from university. She teaches history and geography at a high school, and she and her husband have three sons. "

It doesn't sound to me that random children were taken away. And wasn't it best for everybody involved?

Liberal societies have a dilemma:
"Freedom to choose also always means freedom to choose wrong. "
Milton Friedman

So if a society desires equal chances for children, can social weak people be allowed to get as many children as they please? Of course one can say that's nobody's business. But then it also isn't the taxpayer's business to prevent poverty.

I have seen enough poverty in India. I take Pinochet's side.

Also very interesting:
The adopted man got highly educated parents in one of the advanced countries of the world. His life should have been so much better than anything he could expect in Chile. But he never felt home. He wanted to go back to his roots.

Aren't we meant to be racist?
Hitler wrote in "Mein Kampf" what elevating feeling it is to totally merge with the group marching in step during a torchlight procession in uniform.
What are sport events in which people like to wear jerseys of their team?
I believe because of my autistic tendencies I hardly ever bother with these group events. But one can't deny such emotion exists in many people. And the unity of a group is often strengthened through demarcation towards other groups.

At a theater play in my son's school the prince had very dark skin. My first thought: " That doesn't fit. "
I felt embarrassed over my own racism. Or better: I did't knew till then I was so racist.

Also strange: I feel more empathy with somebody relatively poor in Germany than somebody absolutely poor in India.

Since my son is mixed I hope this post is not understood to try to promote racism.
It's just reading of this man brought up old, troublesome thoughts.

Monkeys form groups.
The US is interesting in this context. Since there are all kind of colours available building groups based on race makes less and less sense.
I find it fabulous that young, racist Biden in his old age chooses a coloured woman as his deputy.
As a German I find it a bit odd that Hollywood movies mostly show the US flag. But then it's a nationalism of inclusion, just like in India.

So racism doesn't seem to be an absolute emotion, but a very strong one.

It was not only poor women. Actually young women from upper middle class, upperclass often very Catholic had similar cases.

In those cases it was more a story about that the young girls could not have children begfore marrige.

Often in those cases it became internal family story where "grandparents" becomes "parents".

I realized this when I got married to my wife born in 1968. Her mother was then in her 40s and my wife brother and sister 18 and 20 years older.

Many considered that my wifes mother was actually her sister, while it was so common in that generation.

1960s, 1970s in Chile and until very recent a upperclass or upper middle class woman could have children young and bring them into her married life.

Kiwirob wrote:

olle wrote:

In Sweden and Chile this has been a major scandal the last few years;

The children will likely have a better longer life in Sweden and Denmark than they would have in their home country. I know where I would prefer to live.

Chile is an extreme classicist country. As upper middle class I lived like a king there. I had persons cleaning making food etc.

As lower class the life is much harder.

But the difference between Chile version 1980 and 1920 is huge. The middle class today is much better and more and more young study and get better jobs.

But, the difference between classes is in a way that I do not see in western Europe, not even UK.

This is actually me and my wife working with ID and passports in Chile 12 years ago;

https://www.mercuriovalpo.cl/prontus4_n ... 13808.html

Kiwirob

Not sure that this excuses kidnapping infants and selling them.

olle wrote:

This is actually me and my wife working with ID and passports in Chile 12 years ago;

https://www.mercuriovalpo.cl/prontus4_n ... 13808.html

You and your wife don't look Swedish. Mind if I ask what's your story?
("I printed our own passports" will be accepted as answer.)

olle wrote:

It was not only poor women. Actually young women from upper middle class, upperclass often very Catholic had similar cases.

In those cases it was more a story about that the young girls could not have children begfore marrige.

Often in those cases it became internal family story where "grandparents" becomes "parents".

You mean similar cases in the sense that grandparents took over, not in the sense that Pinochet's men gave the baby for adoption.

I once read a novel or saw a movie in which a newborn was given away by the grandfather of the mother. I don't think that's a Chilean special. It may simply be an economic necessity in a poor society.

bennett123 wrote:

Kiwirob

Not sure that this excuses kidnapping infants and selling them.

Of course not. It seems like the church, health care system, government all was involved.

Sokes wrote:

olle wrote:

It was not only poor women. Actually young women from upper middle class, upperclass often very Catholic had similar cases.

In those cases it was more a story about that the young girls could not have children begfore marrige.

Often in those cases it became internal family story where "grandparents" becomes "parents".

You mean similar cases in the sense that grandparents took over, not in the sense that Pinochet's men gave the baby for adoption.

I once read a novel or saw a movie in which a newborn was given away by the grandfather of the mother. I don't think that's a Chilean special. It may simply be an economic necessity in a poor society.

What I meant was that a lot of strange things going on the Chilean sociaty at the period. Stealing babies was mostly an activity that affected lower class with dark skinned babies sent abroad.

Political families on the left (white skinned) had also their babies in some cases stolen but they were mostly as I understand it given to right side upper class and upper middle class families.

There was an Argentinian film back in the 1980s about a couple who adopted a Chilean child who's parents had been detained and executed under the Pinoche regime. I wish I could remember the name of that film. It was really good. We saw it in my high school Spanish class.

They may not have known, but the other people involved did.

As for having a better life, would you hand over your kids if someone decided that they could give them more stuff?.

olle wrote:

What I meant was that a lot of strange things going on the Chilean sociaty at the period. Stealing babies was mostly an activity that affected lower class with dark skinned babies sent abroad.

Political families on the left (white skinned) had also their babies in some cases stolen but they were mostly as I understand it given to right side upper class and upper middle class families.

I knew Pinochet worked with torture. So he also worked with terror.
My Indian mother in law didn't knew anything about politics beside the subsidies she received. But she always went to vote.
Do people have the right to ruin other people's life through voting?

Let me ask you like this:
Suppose after 1998 a politician had taken over the Venezuela government by coup. You knew he will take the exact same actions as Pinochet and Venezuela will develop exactly like Chile did. You had the chance to kill this politician. Would you have killed him and reestablished the legitimate government under Hugo Chavez?

Why would the government give away dark babies? To breed a fair people?

Sokes wrote:

olle wrote:

Why would the government give away dark babies? To breed a fair people?

Just as a guess - and it just occurs to me, so please don't take this as an insult to Chile, but many Germans emigrated to Chile, as they did to other South American countries, in the late 1940s. If you see Chilean military parades on Youtube, you can certainly see the influence: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJAL_OR8-MY

Is it extreme to suggest then, that they took with them some ideas about eugenics?

As to the adoption issue, this had a parallel in Ireland I believe it may have happened in other countries. Only very recently, there was a government report about "Mother and Baby" homes, where pregnant single mothers were sent, as a penance, treated horribly and their children had huge death rates; however, an earlier report detailed how many children were sold for adoption in the US by nuns. (Have a look at the movie "Philomena" with Judy Dench and Steve Coogan, which tells one such story.

@kaitak:
The helmets look like Wehrmacht surplus. Really a strange and concerning video.
While a few German war criminals settled in Chile, it seems it wasn't a major influx. However Chile was racist from before:
"The desire by established immigrants to encourage other white Europeans to populate the country and "improve the race" was evident in policies that resulted in the influx of European immigrants in the 19th and 20th centuries. "
https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article ... -migration

And speaking of eugenics:
California, Germany and Sweden took the most drastic measures. That means preventing a few 10.000 people to get children. It isn't like breeding plants.
T4 was a crime of course. Lebensborn, well, Himmler, what to expect?
But the eugenics legislation Hitler passed early in power was written, but not passed, by the earlier government. It was the spirit of the time with many smart people in favor of it.

Sokes wrote:

@kaitak:
The helmets look like Wehrmacht surplus. Really a strange and concerning video.
While a few German war criminals settled in Chile, it seems it wasn't a major influx. However Chile was racist from before:
"The desire by established immigrants to encourage other white Europeans to populate the country and "improve the race" was evident in policies that resulted in the influx of European immigrants in the 19th and 20th centuries. "
https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article ... -migration

And speaking of eugenics:
California, Germany and Sweden took the most drastic measures. That means preventing a few 10.000 people to get children. It isn't like breeding plants.
T4 was a crime of course. Lebensborn, well, Himmler, what to expect?
But the eugenics legislation Hitler passed early in power was written, but not passed, by the earlier government. It was the spirit of the time with many smart people in favor of it.

There were at least 30 states that had forced sterilization and eugenics laws on the books until they were overturned by the Supreme Court in 1942 when Oklahoma was sued. Indiana was the first state to enact forced sterilization.

https://theconversation.com/forced-ster ... ury-143144

seb146 wrote:

Sokes wrote:

@kaitak:
The helmets look like Wehrmacht surplus. Really a strange and concerning video.
While a few German war criminals settled in Chile, it seems it wasn't a major influx. However Chile was racist from before:
"The desire by established immigrants to encourage other white Europeans to populate the country and "improve the race" was evident in policies that resulted in the influx of European immigrants in the 19th and 20th centuries. "
https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article ... -migration

And speaking of eugenics:
California, Germany and Sweden took the most drastic measures. That means preventing a few 10.000 people to get children. It isn't like breeding plants.
T4 was a crime of course. Lebensborn, well, Himmler, what to expect?
But the eugenics legislation Hitler passed early in power was written, but not passed, by the earlier government. It was the spirit of the time with many smart people in favor of it.

There were at least 30 states that had forced sterilization and eugenics laws on the books until they were overturned by the Supreme Court in 1942 when Oklahoma was sued. Indiana was the first state to enact forced sterilization.

https://theconversation.com/forced-ster ... ury-143144

The Sami people are lobbying the Swedish government for a truth and reconciliation process to address human rights violations against them — historical and ongoing — against the background of a debate about how the country should behave toward its newest arrivals.

Representatives of the indigenous group point to forced sterilization, preservation of Sami human remains at government research facilities and the so-called “cultural genocide” that all but eliminated them from the official history of their country.



https://www.politico.eu/article/sami-re ... imination/

seb146 wrote:

There were at least 30 states that had forced sterilization and eugenics laws on the books until they were overturned by the Supreme Court in 1942 when Oklahoma was sued. Indiana was the first state to enact forced sterilization.

https://theconversation.com/forced-ster ... ury-143144

The link says a lot of German Jews were sterilized. I never heard or read that. Sterilization was about mental disabled. I'm not sure about those which were considered antisocial. That could have been homeless, drunkards, but also gypsies. But I think it was mostly about the former.
And I was mistaken about a few ten thousand. In Germany 1 % of adult population got sterilized.

Sokes wrote:

seb146 wrote:

There were at least 30 states that had forced sterilization and eugenics laws on the books until they were overturned by the Supreme Court in 1942 when Oklahoma was sued. Indiana was the first state to enact forced sterilization.

https://theconversation.com/forced-ster ... ury-143144

The link says a lot of German Jews were sterilized. I never heard or read that. Sterilization was about mental disabled. I'm not sure about those which were considered antisocial. That could have been homeless, drunkards, but also gypsies. But I think it was mostly about the former.
And I was mistaken about a few ten thousand. In Germany 1 % of adult population got sterilized.

Sterilization happened with "undesirable" people. Those deemed by the state to be not wanted. Like homeless, Blacks, gays, cross dressers, Downs syndrome, These kinds of experiments have been performed on those deemed "undesirable" for a very long time. Lobotomies is another experiment done on "undesirables". But this goes into a whole different conversation. At the same time frightening and interesting, though.

How is the society of Chile today?
I assumed Pinochet was a necessary evil and that thanks to economic development people moved on. At least I claim that for us Germans.
But seeing the helmets at the parade I wonder if I'm wrong.

Sokes wrote:

How is the society of Chile today?
I assumed Pinochet was a necessary evil and that thanks to economic development people moved on. At least I claim that for us Germans.
But seeing the helmets at the parade I wonder if I'm wrong.

It is still a very divided country between classes and left right.

A bit like USA with many extreme right and many extreme left.

But

It is the country in south america with the highest livingstandard together with uruguay.

Around double gdp compared Argentina / Brazil.

% poor is much less today then 50 years ago.

olle wrote:

Sokes wrote:

How is the society of Chile today?
I assumed Pinochet was a necessary evil and that thanks to economic development people moved on. At least I claim that for us Germans.
But seeing the helmets at the parade I wonder if I'm wrong.

It is still a very divided country between classes and left right.

A bit like USA with many extreme right and many extreme left.

But

It is the country in south america with the highest livingstandard together with uruguay.

Around double gdp compared Argentina / Brazil.

% poor is much less today then 50 years ago.

Can you provide a link for this GDP statement you made?

Derico wrote:

olle wrote:

Sokes wrote:

How is the society of Chile today?
I assumed Pinochet was a necessary evil and that thanks to economic development people moved on. At least I claim that for us Germans.
But seeing the helmets at the parade I wonder if I'm wrong.

It is still a very divided country between classes and left right.

A bit like USA with many extreme right and many extreme left.

But

It is the country in south america with the highest livingstandard together with uruguay.

Around double gdp compared Argentina / Brazil.

% poor is much less today then 50 years ago.

Can you provide a link for this GDP statement you made?

The GDP per capita 2019 Argentina was € 9890 vs Chile € 14 772 or 67%.

The GDP per capita 2019 Chile was € 14 772 vs Uruguay € 16 434 or 89%.

The GDP per capita 2019 Argentina was € 9890 vs Uruguay € 16 434 or 60%.


Since 2019 Chile is outgrowing Argentina and has been doing the last 20 years.

So saying that for example Uruguay and Argentina has a GDP (per capita) that is around double the Argentna is as you show only partly correct. Argentina has an economy that is 60% compared to Uruguay and 67% (probably closer 63% today) compared to Chile.



https://countryeconomy.com/countries/co ... le?sc=XE15

https://countryeconomy.com/countries/co ... le/uruguay

https://www.statista.com/statistics/370 ... -in-chile/

https://www.statista.com/statistics/314 ... argentina/