marcelh wrote:

A bit more concerning news:
"Denmark halts use of Astrazenica Covid 19 vaccin"
https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSS8N2JV04G

Italy and Norway (not in the EU, but close enough) are following suit.

One has to wonder how much politics is involved in this whole vaccine drama, it is hard to understand why other nations would have hid such side effects from the EU.
Millions in non-EU countries have already taken the AZ vaccine, I find it hard to believe that only folks in Denmark had such reactions.
Perhaps Merkel and Macon were too quick to walk back their negative statements?

And iceland too...

The A-Z vaccine really isn't the brightest crayon in the box is it?

And that from a company which is selling it as if it is pure gold: the outright arrogance of A-Z must urgently be tamed.

More back & forth...
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-56357760

sabenapilot wrote:

And iceland too...

The A-Z vaccine really isn't the brightest crayon in the box is it?

And that from a company which is selling it as if it is pure gold: the outright arrogance of A-Z must urgently be tamed.

I assume you have sources the validate that claim?

Thunderboltdrgn wrote:

sabenapilot wrote:

And iceland too...

The A-Z vaccine really isn't the brightest crayon in the box is it?

And that from a company which is selling it as if it is pure gold: the outright arrogance of A-Z must urgently be tamed.

I assume you have sources the validate that claim?

Using a sample too small for 65+ age group (which is the most important age group as far as a covid vaccine goes), overselling your production capacities ("no competing obligations"), completely botching your rollout and using stalling tactics when caught redhanded (including not showing up to a high-level meeting with your biggest customer) is all on AZ.

The bloodclot issue might or might not be significant, it's just a nice cherry on top.

JJJ wrote:

Thunderboltdrgn wrote:

sabenapilot wrote:

And iceland too...

The A-Z vaccine really isn't the brightest crayon in the box is it?

And that from a company which is selling it as if it is pure gold: the outright arrogance of A-Z must urgently be tamed.

I assume you have sources the validate that claim?

Using a sample too small for 65+ age group (which is the most important age group as far as a covid vaccine goes), overselling your production capacities ("no competing obligations"), completely botching your rollout and using stalling tactics when caught redhanded (including not showing up to a high-level meeting with your biggest customer) is all on AZ.

The bloodclot issue might or might not be significant, it's just a nice cherry on top.

The EU isn't entirely blameless here. The EU wanted the AZ vaccine as its primary vaccine because it was the cheapest. But now we know the bet was wrong because of all the crises and problems this one vaccine has caused. No other vaccine has created so many problems and headaches. The EU should have been warned: You get what you pay for!

It's interesting to note that the US government hasn't approved the AZ vaccine yet. According to this New York Times article, the US government had identified problems with the AZ vaccines trials back in September 2020. I question why the EU didn't spot these problems and with the AZ vaccine while the US did. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/08/busi ... eneca.html

max999 wrote:

JJJ wrote:

Thunderboltdrgn wrote:

I assume you have sources the validate that claim?

Using a sample too small for 65+ age group (which is the most important age group as far as a covid vaccine goes), overselling your production capacities ("no competing obligations"), completely botching your rollout and using stalling tactics when caught redhanded (including not showing up to a high-level meeting with your biggest customer) is all on AZ.

The bloodclot issue might or might not be significant, it's just a nice cherry on top.

The EU isn't entirely blameless here. The EU wanted the AZ vaccine as its primary vaccine because it was the cheapest. But now we know the bet was wrong because of all the crises and problems this one vaccine has caused. No other vaccine has created so many problems and headaches. The EU should have been warned: You get what you pay for!

The EU advance purchases went like this:
300 Pfizer - BioNTech
300+100 AZ
300 Sanofi - GSK
200+200 Janssen
225+180 Curevac
80+80 Moderna

That's quite a diversified basket, but if 2/6 aren't yet ready, another one was just approved (Janssen) and both AZ and (less so) Pfizer had trouble scaling up there's not really much you can do.

On paper they're all first rate, reliable partners with a proven record (Moderna being the outlier as a newer player).

AstraZeneca cuts EU vaccine delivery targets again: report

So instead of the 80 to 100 millions doses in Q1 as in the contract, there are 11 millions doses for now and 30 millions max. And we still have to read day after day how AZ is so great.....

Olddog wrote:

AstraZeneca cuts EU vaccine delivery targets again: report

So instead of the 80 to 100 millions doses in Q1 as in the contract, there are 11 millions doses for now and 30 millions max. And we still have to read day after day how AZ is so great.....

All while the US is sitting on 30 million doses which are still waiting for government approval.

https://www.ft.com/content/e4aaf7a8-3cc ... d069a9dbf2

The US does have an explicit vaccine export ban, though.

JJJ wrote:

Olddog wrote:

AstraZeneca cuts EU vaccine delivery targets again: report

So instead of the 80 to 100 millions doses in Q1 as in the contract, there are 11 millions doses for now and 30 millions max. And we still have to read day after day how AZ is so great.....

All while the US is sitting on 30 million doses which are still waiting for government approval.

https://www.ft.com/content/e4aaf7a8-3cc ... d069a9dbf2

The US does have an explicit vaccine export ban, though.

Point being that the US has not approved, their politicians and medical personnel can put out all manner of bad press on the vaccine without undermining their deployment.

When posting, please only cite to reputable sources.

Italy is going into lockdown for Easter, bummer:

https://www.bing.com/amp/s/mobile.reute ... SKBN2B41FM

par13del wrote:

JJJ wrote:

Olddog wrote:

AstraZeneca cuts EU vaccine delivery targets again: report

So instead of the 80 to 100 millions doses in Q1 as in the contract, there are 11 millions doses for now and 30 millions max. And we still have to read day after day how AZ is so great.....

All while the US is sitting on 30 million doses which are still waiting for government approval.

https://www.ft.com/content/e4aaf7a8-3cc ... d069a9dbf2

The US does have an explicit vaccine export ban, though.

Point being that the US has not approved, their politicians and medical personnel can put out all manner of bad press on the vaccine without undermining their deployment.

The US is not doing and bad PR.

What statement has been noted:
As foreign regulators have moved ahead with approval for the shot, the U.S. has not dropped its contractual claim on the initial doses produced in the U.S.

...

“We want to be oversupplied and overprepared,” White House press secretary Jen Psaki said Wednesday, saying Biden wanted contingencies in the event of any unforeseen issues with the existing production timeline.

“We still don’t know which vaccine will be most effective on kids,” she added. “We still don’t know the impact of variants or the need for booster shots. And these doses can be used for booster shots as well as needed. Obviously that’s still being studied by the FDA but again we want to be over-prepared.”


https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/us/tussl ... NewsSearch

So per contract, those are US property. If I could get AZ tomorrow, I would if I knew I had the option of a mRNA vaccine to follow as 2nd dose. (Yea, research underway, I posted a link upthread weeks ago on UK research). I want my kids vaccinated and AZ seems likely to be early.

With all the fuss about blood clots, how many doses are the countries in the EU sitting on anyway?

Lightsaber

lightsaber wrote:

With all the fuss about blood clots, how many doses are the countries in the EU sitting on anyway?

And (assuming the data indicate there is no clotting problem) how soon will its use be re-authorised? How many people will subsequently refuse to accept it? How much of the stock now in the EU will go to waste? In the end it may turn out to have been a good thing that AZ deliveries were way down on what was expected.

art wrote:

lightsaber wrote:

With all the fuss about blood clots, how many doses are the countries in the EU sitting on anyway?

And (assuming the data indicate there is no clotting problem) how soon will its use be re-authorised? How many people will subsequently refuse to accept it? How much of the stock now in the EU will go to waste? In the end it may turn out to have been a good thing that AZ deliveries were way down on what was expected.

Only that particular batch is currently being halted. The rest are still going on.

Otherwise the EC wouldn't be knocking on the US door to ask for more doses.

JJJ wrote:

art wrote:

lightsaber wrote:

With all the fuss about blood clots, how many doses are the countries in the EU sitting on anyway?

And (assuming the data indicate there is no clotting problem) how soon will its use be re-authorised? How many people will subsequently refuse to accept it? How much of the stock now in the EU will go to waste? In the end it may turn out to have been a good thing that AZ deliveries were way down on what was expected.

Only that particular batch is currently being halted. The rest are still going on.

Otherwise the EC wouldn't be knocking on the US door to ask for more doses.

Spain has reported no clotting from the effected batch.
https://news.yahoo.com/spain-keep-using ... 47967.html

I seriously wonder if diet and a lack of exercise is causing blood clotting? We all know the gyms are closes and with social isolation, I can only guess how much most people have reduced their physical activity. Unfortunately, that increases blood clotting risk.

The reason the EU is scrambling for AZ is there just won't be enough of the other approved vaccines. J&J only shipped 3.9 million doses, barely enough to vaccinate a percent of the US population and that won't make any noticeable change to the spread. Pfizer is in super high demand from everyone, so good luck getting significantly more vaccine. Moderna is producing, but when I look for "COVID-19 vaccine doses administered by manufacturer" and switch the country to Germany, today it is 7.09 million Pfizer, 1.47 million AZ, 0.29 million Moderna.
https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations

Europe needs more vaccine. There are reasons countries are considering Sinopharm or Sputnik V. They wouldn't if there was a wise choice due to, in my opinion, the political consequences. They are doing so for supply which is just too dear and will be through 2021.

LIghtsaber

I'm pessimistic on how we (the global population) will do in the 4th wave, but even I think this is a bit bombastic, but data are data, so I'll use the graphs and ignore the words:
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/ge ... NewsSearch

Germany is definately on the uptick. Not as scary as Brazil, but there are definite signs the 4th wave is starting.


When I look at vaccine takeup (lots of data, search for "COVID-19 vaccine doses administered by manufacturer" and switch the country to your favorite EU country. It doesn't look too bad overall and Germany is keeping with AZ vaccinations, 2nd link:
https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations
https://apnews.com/article/world-news-e ... 19d91d5e68

Now the rate is definitely faster on the Pfizer and other vaccines are too rare to have any meaningful impact (vaccinations matter on a mass scale, not the measly ~300k of Moderna in Germany, so yes, I will say the same about J&J in the USA).

Is there a source to note the available AZ stockpile in Germany, France, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Spain and the Netherlands? It is best to talk to data.

Lightsaber

lightsaber wrote:

I'm pessimistic on how we (the global population) will do in the 4th wave, but even I think this is a bit bombastic, but data are data, so I'll use the graphs and ignore the words:
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/ge ... NewsSearch

Germany is definately on the uptick. Not as scary as Brazil, but there are definite signs the 4th wave is starting.


When I look at vaccine takeup (lots of data, search for "COVID-19 vaccine doses administered by manufacturer" and switch the country to your favorite EU country. It doesn't look too bad overall and Germany is keeping with AZ vaccinations, 2nd link:
https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations
https://apnews.com/article/world-news-e ... 19d91d5e68

Now the rate is definitely faster on the Pfizer and other vaccines are too rare to have any meaningful impact (vaccinations matter on a mass scale, not the measly ~300k of Moderna in Germany, so yes, I will say the same about J&J in the USA).

Is there a source to note the available AZ stockpile in Germany, France, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Spain and the Netherlands? It is best to talk to data.

Lightsaber

Before we are talking about a fourth wave for Germany, a third one needs to be managed and finished.

Germany declares a Covid 'third wave' has begun; Italy set for Easter lockdown

I’ll be very curious, when all is said and done, to see comparisons of how different regions handled vaccination and the impacts of those decisions.

At the moment it’s a bit odd though, for the first time in a year I’m actually glad to be in the US in regards to the virus. When it comes to production/logistics, it just seems like the US is absolutely unparalleled. What is up to now, 3+ million vaccinations a day?

In that regard, I admit to being a bit ignorant about the EU. Why exactly has vaccination been that much slower?

FGITD wrote:

I’ll be very curious, when all is said and done, to see comparisons of how different regions handled vaccination and the impacts of those decisions.

At the moment it’s a bit odd though, for the first time in a year I’m actually glad to be in the US in regards to the virus. When it comes to production/logistics, it just seems like the US is absolutely unparalleled. What is up to now, 3+ million vaccinations a day?

In that regard, I admit to being a bit ignorant about the EU. Why exactly has vaccination been that much slower?

Because contrary to the US (or the UK) the EU has been allowing litterally tens of millions of EU produced doses to be exported to places which had urgent needs and/or had already approved the vaccine for use.

A generous albeit naive gesture of the EU, all in the positive mindset that if and when the EU would need a reciprocal gesture of solidarity, it would obviously be returned by the recipients.
it turns out not to be the case: the US is sitting on tens of millions of AZ vaccine it has not certified yet, but it does not want to ship them to the EU.
And the UK... well, we all know the story there, don't we? There's no official export ban, but they have effectively shipped ZERO doses to the EU.

If AZ was a problem, the 17 million in the UK vaccinated with it would have had a problem:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ationalism
Safety data covering more than 17 million Astra doses administered “has shown no evidence of an increased risk of pulmonary embolism, deep vein thrombosis or thrombocytopenia,” the company said in a statement Saturday after the Norwegian decision.

Someone is anti-Vac, or anti-UK raising a ruckus in my opinion.

Lightsaber

sabenapilot wrote:

And the UK... well, we all know the story there, don't we? There's no official export ban, but they have effectively shipped ZERO doses to the EU.

I have not really followed this but, as I understand things, AstraZeneca did not guarantee to supply the quantities ordered by their customers and have not delivered scheduled quantities. As to where the available stocks are shipped, who decides that? AstraZeneca? A government? I do not know.

You say that AstraZeneca 'have effectively shipped ZERO doses to the EU.' Do you mean the the UK has imported as much vaccine from the EU as it has exported to the EU? Or do you mean that no AZ vaccine has been shipped to the EU from the UK?

SQ22 wrote:

lightsaber wrote:

I'm pessimistic on how we (the global population) will do in the 4th wave, but even I think this is a bit bombastic, but data are data, so I'll use the graphs and ignore the words:
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/ge ... NewsSearch

Germany is definately on the uptick. Not as scary as Brazil, but there are definite signs the 4th wave is starting.


When I look at vaccine takeup (lots of data, search for "COVID-19 vaccine doses administered by manufacturer" and switch the country to your favorite EU country. It doesn't look too bad overall and Germany is keeping with AZ vaccinations, 2nd link:
https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations
https://apnews.com/article/world-news-e ... 19d91d5e68

Now the rate is definitely faster on the Pfizer and other vaccines are too rare to have any meaningful impact (vaccinations matter on a mass scale, not the measly ~300k of Moderna in Germany, so yes, I will say the same about J&J in the USA).

Is there a source to note the available AZ stockpile in Germany, France, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Spain and the Netherlands? It is best to talk to data.

Lightsaber

Before we are talking about a fourth wave for Germany, a third one needs to be managed and finished.

Germany declares a Covid 'third wave' has begun; Italy set for Easter lockdown

The rest of the world is calling the next wave the 4th wave. I do not know why Europeans call it the 3rd wave. Since this is a global pandemic, I'll use the term more utilized around the world (4th wave).

Either way, a new wave is coming and countries had better get as prepared as they possibly can. The best scenario is mass vaccination.

Those that can blog here probably have better resources than the average person on this planet. Thus a better (but not guaranteed) access to vaccines. We need to talk as a global society on how to produce more instead of splitting up a small batch of vaccines. That means investigating Sputnik V so that there is better research on its effectiveness and safety (I believe enough of that is happening). Mixing vaccines (for with many other vaccines that produces a better effect, but not always). Say AZ then Pfizer. I am of the opinion that the best solution to make the most of the relatively rare mRNA stock is switch to those only being a 2nd dose with AZ or J&J being the first dose or even another vaccine.

I am also quite frustrated at how inefficient California is for distributing vaccine. Too many millions of doses sit. The reason people wait at vaccination centers to get spare doses is there are plenty of spare doses (I personally know a dozen people who received the vaccine that way). At least pharmacies are getting more vaccines:
https://ktla.com/news/nationworld/119-m ... -covid-19/

They finally added my local pharmacy that I use:
https://www.cvs.com/immunizations/covid-19-vaccine

Lightsaber

art wrote:

Or do you mean that no AZ vaccine has been shipped to the EU from the UK?

it would appear a total of 8 million doses, mostly Biontech, went to the UK and zero vaccine of any kind came back.
I posted a link somewhere above before.

best regards
Thomas

The vaccine problem shows why the EU is bad. Look what the US and the UK achieve, they will be done with vaccinating their population before the EU has vaccinated 1/3rd of the population.

If it helps, the UK has been suffering from a Vaccine shortage recently too, so it's not just the poor old EU that is suffering,

tommy1808 wrote:

art wrote:

Or do you mean that no AZ vaccine has been shipped to the EU from the UK?

it would appear a total of 8 million doses, mostly Biontech, went to the UK and zero vaccine of any kind came back.
I posted a link somewhere above before.

best regards
Thomas

Don’t forget the AZ vaccines produced by Halix in the Netherlands which is part of the “UK production chain”.

marcelh wrote:

tommy1808 wrote:

art wrote:

Or do you mean that no AZ vaccine has been shipped to the EU from the UK?

it would appear a total of 8 million doses, mostly Biontech, went to the UK and zero vaccine of any kind came back.
I posted a link somewhere above before.

best regards
Thomas

Don’t forget the AZ vaccines produced by Halix in the Netherlands which is part of the “UK production chain”.

The EU has a contract saying there is no competing obligation, hence there is no "UK production chain", at least none that would allow shipping to the UK unless EU orders are filled. Not even from AZs UK facilities mentioned in the contract.. Those are in the "EU production chain".

best regards
Thomas

tommy1808 wrote:

marcelh wrote:

tommy1808 wrote:

it would appear a total of 8 million doses, mostly Biontech, went to the UK and zero vaccine of any kind came back.
I posted a link somewhere above before.

best regards
Thomas

Don’t forget the AZ vaccines produced by Halix in the Netherlands which is part of the “UK production chain”.

The EU has a contract saying there is no competing obligation, hence there is no "UK production chain", at least none that would allow shipping to the UK unless EU orders are filled. Not even from AZs UK facilities mentioned in the contract.. Those are in the "EU production chain".

best regards
Thomas

Well, CEO Soriot of AZ has stated otherwise that there were other obligations of earlier date between the Dutch manufacturer (Halix) and the consortium led by the University of Oxford which has developed the Covid 19 vaccin. And “earlier date” is april 202, so yes, before AZ and the EU had an agreement. I have posted a link (in Dutch) last week, but somehow it got deleted.

There is a reason why the plant in the Netherlands isn’t approved yet by the EMA. Because AZ hadn’t mentioned it as an production site for the EU....

marcelh wrote:

tommy1808 wrote:

marcelh wrote:

Don’t forget the AZ vaccines produced by Halix in the Netherlands which is part of the “UK production chain”.

The EU has a contract saying there is no competing obligation, hence there is no "UK production chain", at least none that would allow shipping to the UK unless EU orders are filled. Not even from AZs UK facilities mentioned in the contract.. Those are in the "EU production chain".

best regards
Thomas

Well, CEO Soriot of AZ has stated otherwise that there were other obligations

And gave the EU that there isn´t in writing. What they lied about and kept secret is their problem and of no concern to anyone else. Res inter alios acta alteri non nocet, a contract AZ has with a third party is irrelevant to the AZ-EU relationship, unless it was known to the EU.

best regards
Thomas

This is a bit of a mess to me. It seems that COVID-19 vaccine contracts with AZ are not binding with regard to delivery time. The reaction of customers (governments) seems to be bad to me.

If a foreign company made widgets here in the UK and sold them to the UK government and other governments, what business would it be of the UK government to interfere with that foreign company's shipments of the widgets it manufactured in the UK?

art wrote:

It seems that COVID-19 vaccine contracts with AZ are not binding with regard to delivery time.

the EU wanted to make the whole contract public, AZ insisted on stuff being blacked out. Including blacking out the delivery schedule at the end of the contract. I gues that makes quite obvious who would look bad if it wasn´t blacked out. What we do know since it was visible under the black is 400 million doses before June 30th. Right now it seems the will fall over 200 million doses short.

If a foreign company made widgets here in the UK and sold them to the UK government and other governments, what business would it be of the UK government to interfere with that foreign company's shipments of the widgets it manufactured in the UK?

Depends, did that company oversell its production capacity, lied about it until their bluff was about to be called and kept happily shipping to other customers?

best regards
Thomas

tommy1808 wrote:

marcelh wrote:

tommy1808 wrote:

The EU has a contract saying there is no competing obligation, hence there is no "UK production chain", at least none that would allow shipping to the UK unless EU orders are filled. Not even from AZs UK facilities mentioned in the contract.. Those are in the "EU production chain".

best regards
Thomas

Well, CEO Soriot of AZ has stated otherwise that there were other obligations

And gave the EU that there isn´t in writing.
best regards
Thomas

OK....
https://nos.nl/artikel/2370277-farmaceut-astrazeneca-geeft-toe-britten-investeerden-in-nederlandse-productie.html in Dutch

According to this article, AZ had to accept the earlier signed contracts. As stated by CEO Soriot of AZ when he was "invited" by the European Parliament last February.

marcelh wrote:

tommy1808 wrote:

marcelh wrote:

Well, CEO Soriot of AZ has stated otherwise that there were other obligations

And gave the EU that there isn´t in writing.
best regards
Thomas

OK....
https://nos.nl/artikel/2370277-farmaceut-astrazeneca-geeft-toe-britten-investeerden-in-nederlandse-productie.html in Dutch

According to this article, AZ had to accept the earlier signed contracts. As stated by CEO Soriot of AZ when he was "invited" by the European Parliament last February.

AZ signed a contract saying no competing obligations exist last August. Whatever else they said, did or signed is hence irrelevant, especially what he said in February 2021.

According to your source: They sold their product twice, and never acted in good faith.

best regards
Thomas

Both my parents have gotten a first dose so I'm a bit relieved. 73yo dad got Pfizer and 66yo mom got AZ. She had a feverish night after and kept to her bed for the day, by the evening she was fine. No blood clots, although since she's taking a daily dose of aspirin that was probably unlikely.

My doctor has put me on his list for vaccination, I live right next to his practice so if he ends up with an unused dose he will call me. If that happens in the next few weeks it would be AZ, I'm wondering about taking aspirin like my mother for a time, it shouldn't hurt in any case.

I'm in France.

tommy1808 wrote:

marcelh wrote:

tommy1808 wrote:

And gave the EU that there isn´t in writing.
best regards
Thomas

OK....
https://nos.nl/artikel/2370277-farmaceut-astrazeneca-geeft-toe-britten-investeerden-in-nederlandse-productie.html in Dutch

According to this article, AZ had to accept the earlier signed contracts. As stated by CEO Soriot of AZ when he was "invited" by the European Parliament last February.

AZ signed a contract saying no competing obligations exist last August. Whatever else they said, did or signed is hence irrelevant, especially what he said in February 2021.

According to your source: They sold their product twice, and never acted in good faith.

best regards
Thomas

It’s also interesting to read that the UK government has invested in production capacity in the EU...

SQ22 wrote:

lightsaber wrote:

I'm pessimistic on how we (the global population) will do in the 4th wave, but even I think this is a bit bombastic, but data are data, so I'll use the graphs and ignore the words:
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/ge ... NewsSearch

Germany is definately on the uptick. Not as scary as Brazil, but there are definite signs the 4th wave is starting.

Before we are talking about a fourth wave for Germany, a third one needs to be managed and finished.

Germany declares a Covid 'third wave' has begun; Italy set for Easter lockdown

I would say we're still in an extended *second* wave!

Those double-peaks around Christmas were basically one wave - started in October, November lockdowns started to have an effect, many places reopen for Christmas (duh...?), second wave resumes (duh!).

marcelh wrote:

tommy1808 wrote:

marcelh wrote:

OK....
https://nos.nl/artikel/2370277-farmaceut-astrazeneca-geeft-toe-britten-investeerden-in-nederlandse-productie.html in Dutch

According to this article, AZ had to accept the earlier signed contracts. As stated by CEO Soriot of AZ when he was "invited" by the European Parliament last February.

AZ signed a contract saying no competing obligations exist last August. Whatever else they said, did or signed is hence irrelevant, especially what he said in February 2021.

According to your source: They sold their product twice, and never acted in good faith.

best regards
Thomas

It’s also interesting to read that the UK government has invested in production capacity in the EU...

For me the whole saga is unfortunate, but ultimately there is a very serious supply shortfall globally.
Oxford/AZ have a great product. But AZ had no prior experience with vaccine production and screwed up on the production.
Sanofi/GSK are both big vaccine manufacturers but they failed in dosing their vaccine in tests.
Merck's candidate did not even attract a sufficient immune response.
So the only major vaccine player who has a working product is Pfizer, and they are the only one who is able to deliver in volume and according to schedule.
The whole situation is unfortunate but if Sanofi, GSK and Merck have a working product, the whole situation would be very different. Now they are basically on the sidelines with tons of excess capacity. Kudos to the Pfizer/BioNTech team for delivering a working product.
If the EU wants more vaccine, the way forward may be to compulsorily license one of the existing vaccine and ask GSK/Sanofi/Merck to license produce them.

Hiring expensive lawyers to fight over your supply contract does not get more vaccines out of the door, find a way to produce more vaccines for everyone and then you don't have to fight for the finite amount of vaccines.

marcelh wrote:

tommy1808 wrote:

marcelh wrote:

OK....
https://nos.nl/artikel/2370277-farmaceut-astrazeneca-geeft-toe-britten-investeerden-in-nederlandse-productie.html in Dutch

According to this article, AZ had to accept the earlier signed contracts. As stated by CEO Soriot of AZ when he was "invited" by the European Parliament last February.

AZ signed a contract saying no competing obligations exist last August. Whatever else they said, did or signed is hence irrelevant, especially what he said in February 2021.

According to your source: They sold their product twice, and never acted in good faith.

best regards
Thomas

It’s also interesting to read that the UK government has invested in production capacity in the EU...

AZ scammed the EU out of 300 million for production capacity.

Best regards
Thomas

tommy1808 wrote:

marcelh wrote:

tommy1808 wrote:

AZ signed a contract saying no competing obligations exist last August. Whatever else they said, did or signed is hence irrelevant, especially what he said in February 2021.

According to your source: They sold their product twice, and never acted in good faith.

best regards
Thomas

It’s also interesting to read that the UK government has invested in production capacity in the EU...

AZ scammed the EU out of 300 million for production capacity.

Best regards
Thomas

AZ was confronted with a UK government financed production plant in the EU.. Imagine the other way around...

tommy1808 wrote:

marcelh wrote:

tommy1808 wrote:

AZ signed a contract saying no competing obligations exist last August. Whatever else they said, did or signed is hence irrelevant, especially what he said in February 2021.

According to your source: They sold their product twice, and never acted in good faith.

best regards
Thomas

It’s also interesting to read that the UK government has invested in production capacity in the EU...

AZ scammed the EU out of 300 million for production capacity.

Best regards
Thomas

Moot point since many countries don’t want it anyway.

The EU is screwed now since they were relying on AZ, and their French vaccine (Sanofi) failed. This time last year the story was how well Germany was doing, etc. Now the tables have completely turned. At this rate there won’t be regular commercial flights into the EU until after the summer.

zhiao wrote:

tommy1808 wrote:

marcelh wrote:

It’s also interesting to read that the UK government has invested in production capacity in the EU...

AZ scammed the EU out of 300 million for production capacity.

Best regards
Thomas

Moot point since many countries don’t want it anyway.

The EU is screwed now since they were relying on AZ, and their French vaccine (Sanofi) failed. This time last year the story was how well Germany was doing, etc. Now the tables have completely turned. At this rate there won’t be regular commercial flights into the EU until after the summer.

The French Vaccine restarted trials. The issue us the wait and see attitude of ordering after proven. The UK and US ordered on risk.

AZ will deliver an incredible supply, just very late. Too late for a summer travel season. The UK bought 5X more vaccine than required and that isn't meeting demand.

As bad as my estimates are on AZ production, it will still be a substantial part of the EU vaccination process.

The summer travel season won't happen.

So now to plan the recovery. E.g., Valneva, NovaVax. I see all the J&J plants (IDT, Sanofi) spooling up for the EU.

This is not the time to economize.

Lightsaber

Well, the AZ clotting has made the WSJ:
https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/german ... 1615820414

This has set back vaccinations heavily. If the numbers had been that bad, 17 million in the UK would have had issues.

Oh boy... This really torches the summer travel season for Europe.

Lightsaber

And let’s not forget cases are now going up DUE to low vaccination rates. In FL where everything is wide open, cases are going down.

lightsaber wrote:

Well, the AZ clotting has made the WSJ:
https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/german ... 1615820414

This has set back vaccinations heavily. If the numbers had been that bad, 17 million in the UK would have had issues.

Oh boy... This really torches the summer travel season for Europe.

Lightsaber

It was today reported on London radio station LBC that 89% of Brits find vaccinatation against COVID-19 acceptable. Acceptance by Germans was said to be about 66%, by French more like 50%. With the AZ clotting scare, why not switch some UK orders of Pfizer/Moderna to the EU and some EU orders of AstraZeneca to UK? I guess that sceptics will become even more sceptical if offered AZ's vaccine and possibly decline it, leading to delay in vaccination on the continent (and possibly waste).

Based on real world datas, the UK multiillions doses feedback, it seems an overeaction to stop the AZ vaccine, right ?

Can it be a very political driven decision? In a way it's not a big deal for the overall rollout as doses are missing anyway to accelerate. They'll be able to build stock and give a good kick later, plus it doesn't hurt to pressure AZ with bad PR

Sadly, the debacle surrounding the EU vaccine rollout continues, Hopefully things get sorted out quickly as we are all on the same team against Covid

yonahleung wrote:

marcelh wrote:

tommy1808 wrote:

AZ signed a contract saying no competing obligations exist last August. Whatever else they said, did or signed is hence irrelevant, especially what he said in February 2021.

According to your source: They sold their product twice, and never acted in good faith.

best regards
Thomas

It’s also interesting to read that the UK government has invested in production capacity in the EU...

For me the whole saga is unfortunate, but ultimately there is a very serious supply shortfall globally.
Oxford/AZ have a great product. But AZ had no prior experience with vaccine production and screwed up on the production.
Sanofi/GSK are both big vaccine manufacturers but they failed in dosing their vaccine in tests.
Merck's candidate did not even attract a sufficient immune response.
So the only major vaccine player who has a working product is Pfizer, and they are the only one who is able to deliver in volume and according to schedule.
The whole situation is unfortunate but if Sanofi, GSK and Merck have a working product, the whole situation would be very different. Now they are basically on the sidelines with tons of excess capacity. Kudos to the Pfizer/BioNTech team for delivering a working product.
If the EU wants more vaccine, the way forward may be to compulsorily license one of the existing vaccine and ask GSK/Sanofi/Merck to license produce them.

Hiring expensive lawyers to fight over your supply contract does not get more vaccines out of the door, find a way to produce more vaccines for everyone and then you don't have to fight for the finite amount of vaccines.

I posted links before.
Sanofi is making J&J. So is Merck (IIRC, 3 factories).
https://www.euronews.com/2021/02/22/cov ... nson-doses

I posted upthread on the Netherlands factory with an ability to deliver ten million AZ doses. I posted upthread on how the UK is importing India made AZ.

It would have been better if more vaccines worked or were producible They didn't or weren't.

Moderna and Pfizer aren't going to be available enough.

Compulsory licenses means produce all possibly impacted product elsewhere in the future.

CureVax is being funded more by the UK

Valneva, to my knowledge, only has a UK order.

The early funding helped. AZ just isn't yet is full production. Nor J&J.

There is Novavax. UK certification expected in weeks.

Humanity needs an incredible amount of vaccine. Not just the EU.

Lightsaber

lightsaber wrote:

zhiao wrote:

tommy1808 wrote:

AZ scammed the EU out of 300 million for production capacity.

Best regards
Thomas

The UK and US ordered on risk.

that would be the same UK that ordered after the EU, right?

best regards
Thomas

tommy1808 wrote:

lightsaber wrote:

zhiao wrote:

The UK and US ordered on risk.

that would be the same UK that ordered after the EU, right?

best regards
Thomas

Everyone ordered at risk, because nobody did know what the outcome would be. Neither in when a vaccin would be available, nor how effective it would be. What the USA and UK have done well is to secure a lot of the early produced doses.