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flyguy89
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Sun Mar 21, 2021 9:04 am

lightsaber wrote:
https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/where-the-eu-went-wrong-in-its-vaccine-rollout-and-why/
Brussels, by comparison, took a conservative, budget-conscious approach that left the open market largely untouched. And it has paid for it.

In short, the answer today is the same as it was in December, Slaoui said. The bloc shopped for vaccines like a customer. The United States basically went into business with the drugmakers, spending much more heavily to accelerate vaccine development, testing and production.


I know when Disney buys computer time (e.g., for their streaming TV channels), they get very deep into the guts to know the risk.
In Washington, Operation Warp Speed, the Trump administration’s vaccine program, had a $10 billion budget. European officials say it’s unfair to compare the two figures because neither amount is a complete picture of all the money spent on vaccines. But there is no dispute that in Washington, officials had decided that money was no object if vaccines could avert the economic cost of a lockdown. Europe, on the other hand, was on a tight budget, so its negotiators chased cheaper doses.

“Pricing has been important since the beginning,” Sandra Gallina, the EU’s main vaccine negotiator, told lawmakers in February. “We are talking about taxpayers’ money.”


In effect, the US and UK were criticized for over spending and over-buying. Both built up capacity. The UK just did much of that capacity in the EU also. They are now being locked out of that capacity; I'm betting they do not make that mistake again.

The US made vaccines a priority as the huge costs of lockdowns was part of the equation (look at the Trillions spent on rescue packages, so $10 billion on vaccines is chump change).

Basically aligns with other reporting on issue: the EU approached vaccine procurement like trade negotiations (their specialty) vs. a comprehensive production and supply effort. They secured a heck of trade deal, but a flop as far as procurement and production. Hopefully they get it sorted.
 
flipdewaf
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Sun Mar 21, 2021 10:00 am

Cost-time-quality. In any project you can prioritise up to two and suck up the other(s). You cannot contract that choice away and have all 3, you cannot shout to get them all. You can get them all but you cannot constrain all.

In a normal project you have about 80% success from procedural project management and 20% through relationships. In a higher paced project, agile team type, where you inevitably go ‘off contract’ to quite a large degree (you move quicker than corporate legal), the success becomes 50% procedural and 50% relationship driven.

These appear to be the differences between the EU and UK/US strategy.

Fred


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art
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Sun Mar 21, 2021 1:02 pm

WIederling wrote:
What makes a difference is that the EU has done regular certifications : liability is with the producer.
US, GB have done emergency certifications : liability with the state. no risk to the producers.


Not too surprising that manufacturers would rather ship to states where they have no liability (eg US, GB).
 
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par13del
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Sun Mar 21, 2021 1:37 pm

art wrote:
WIederling wrote:
What makes a difference is that the EU has done regular certifications : liability is with the producer.
US, GB have done emergency certifications : liability with the state. no risk to the producers.


Not too surprising that manufacturers would rather ship to states where they have no liability (eg US, GB).

So the purpose of the EMA is what, they are supposed to certify whether the vaccine is safe, after all, liability or no liability, a vaccine producer cannot deploy its product without regulatory approval.
AZ has not been approved by the USA who as you say have done emergency certifications, so is there a fight by AZ to ship more vaccines to the USA? Such logic I can understand a few months ago for initial deployment, but I fail to see how that is relevant now months into deployment across the continent.
The EU has stockpiles of AZ which are going unused because the "EU" has said is not safe - EU in quotes because I include the political leaders -, the stockpiles are only going to increase as folks refuse the shots, more time is required for the other vaccines to reach greater production levels.
The EU is making threats and have already withheld shipments, if rumors are to be believed the EU wants the USA to ship its supplies of AZ, that confuses me, if it is not safe why would they want it, unless what they are saying to the USA is we want to trade our AZ for your Pfizer etc.
 
art
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:17 pm

par13del wrote:
The EU has stockpiles of AZ which are going unused because the "EU" has said is not safe - EU in quotes because I include the political leaders -, the stockpiles are only going to increase as folks refuse the shots, more time is required for the other vaccines to reach greater production levels.
The EU is making threats and have already withheld shipments, if rumors are to be believed the EU wants the USA to ship its supplies of AZ, that confuses me, if it is not safe why would they want it, unless what they are saying to the USA is we want to trade our AZ for your Pfizer etc.


I see it this way

- ultimate goal is to vaccinate all human beings ASAP
- hesitancy in EU over the AZ vaccine slows vaccination
- more non-AZ vaccine in EU would reduce hesitancy

so swap EU AZ stocks for different vaccines.

Yes, it costs to ship things around. Yes, non-AZ vaccines are more expensive. But if EU wants vaccine in arms, it should pay the extra.

UK could curry favour with EU by proposing to swap its Pfizer stocks for EU stocks of AZ, couldn't it? That would be a constructive piece of diplomacy.
 
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par13del
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:43 pm

art wrote:
par13del wrote:
The EU has stockpiles of AZ which are going unused because the "EU" has said is not safe - EU in quotes because I include the political leaders -, the stockpiles are only going to increase as folks refuse the shots, more time is required for the other vaccines to reach greater production levels.
The EU is making threats and have already withheld shipments, if rumors are to be believed the EU wants the USA to ship its supplies of AZ, that confuses me, if it is not safe why would they want it, unless what they are saying to the USA is we want to trade our AZ for your Pfizer etc.


I see it this way

- ultimate goal is to vaccinate all human beings ASAP
- hesitancy in EU over the AZ vaccine slows vaccination
- more non-AZ vaccine in EU would reduce hesitancy

so swap EU AZ stocks for different vaccines.

Yes, it costs to ship things around. Yes, non-AZ vaccines are more expensive. But if EU wants vaccine in arms, it should pay the extra.

UK could curry favour with EU by proposing to swap its Pfizer stocks for EU stocks of AZ, couldn't it? That would be a constructive piece of diplomacy.

Except I have not seen anyone in the EU proposing swaps, I was / am speculating while trying to make sense of their public statements.
 
WIederling
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Sun Mar 21, 2021 3:02 pm

art wrote:
- hesitancy in EU over the AZ vaccine slows vaccination


There is massive hysteric media "foaming"
against the AZ vaccine her in Germany ..
traditional and even more so social media.

My wife's coworkers in mobile care post over the top stuff
egging each other toward avoiding vaccination.

I do wonder if this is a real grass roots thing or a fully synthetic campaign.
( I see quite a bit of effort put into sabotaging our pandemic response.
.... which worked just too well till about September .. )
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Dano1977
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Sun Mar 21, 2021 3:16 pm

According to the Daily Mail (I know I Know), Europe is sitting on 7+million of unused AZ vaccine across it's member states. That is a failure of epic proportion and Europe should be ashamed of themselves.

But If Europe wants to blockade vaccines, it may not mean much in the end..

Britain's reliance on imports is also set to be reduced as an Oxford factory able to produce up to 70 million doses in under six months is ready to open a year ahead of schedule.


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... ts-UK.html

In other news
The UK has seen the third consecutive day with a record number of COVID vaccinations, after 873,784 people received a jab over 24 hours.

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-uk- ... s-12252659
The average EU official - he has the organising ability of the Italians, the flexibility of the Germans and the modesty of the French. And that's topped up by the imagination of the Belgians, the generosity of the Dutch.
 
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Aesma
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Sun Mar 21, 2021 3:20 pm

par13del wrote:
art wrote:
WIederling wrote:
What makes a difference is that the EU has done regular certifications : liability is with the producer.
US, GB have done emergency certifications : liability with the state. no risk to the producers.


Not too surprising that manufacturers would rather ship to states where they have no liability (eg US, GB).

So the purpose of the EMA is what, they are supposed to certify whether the vaccine is safe, after all, liability or no liability, a vaccine producer cannot deploy its product without regulatory approval.
AZ has not been approved by the USA who as you say have done emergency certifications, so is there a fight by AZ to ship more vaccines to the USA? Such logic I can understand a few months ago for initial deployment, but I fail to see how that is relevant now months into deployment across the continent.
The EU has stockpiles of AZ which are going unused because the "EU" has said is not safe - EU in quotes because I include the political leaders -, the stockpiles are only going to increase as folks refuse the shots, more time is required for the other vaccines to reach greater production levels.
The EU is making threats and have already withheld shipments, if rumors are to be believed the EU wants the USA to ship its supplies of AZ, that confuses me, if it is not safe why would they want it, unless what they are saying to the USA is we want to trade our AZ for your Pfizer etc.


The UK has still more stockpile than the whole EU, are we saying vaccines are getting "unused" in the UK ?

It's difficult enough to fight hesitancy, you can't expect a family doctor to try and convince a patient to take it, if he doesn't even have the vial to vaccinate the patient at the end of his speech.

Countries can't use coercion more if there aren't ample stocks either, for example they can't have rules like "only vaccinated people can go into restaurants or book vacations", if people can't get the vaccine.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
marcelh
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Sun Mar 21, 2021 3:28 pm

Dano1977 wrote:
According to the Daily Mail (I know I Know), Europe is sitting on 7+million of unused AZ vaccine across it's member states. That is a failure of epic proportion and Europe should be ashamed of themselves.

But If Europe wants to blockade vaccines, it may not mean much in the end..

Britain's reliance on imports is also set to be reduced as an Oxford factory able to produce up to 70 million doses in under six months is ready to open a year ahead of schedule.


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... ts-UK.html

In other news
The UK has seen the third consecutive day with a record number of COVID vaccinations, after 873,784 people received a jab over 24 hours.

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-uk- ... s-12252659[/quote
 
ElPistolero
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Sun Mar 21, 2021 3:38 pm

Dano1977 wrote:
According to the Daily Mail (I know I Know), Europe is sitting on 7+million of unused AZ vaccine across it's member states. That is a failure of epic proportion and Europe should be ashamed of themselves.

But If Europe wants to blockade vaccines, it may not mean much in the end..

Britain's reliance on imports is also set to be reduced as an Oxford factory able to produce up to 70 million doses in under six months is ready to open a year ahead of schedule.


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... ts-UK.html

In other news
The UK has seen the third consecutive day with a record number of COVID vaccinations, after 873,784 people received a jab over 24 hours.

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-uk- ... s-12252659


In a rational world, it would be a good idea to ship some of those vaccines to Brazil (where things have turned into an unholy mess) instead of jabbing low-risk individuals in the any single country, wouldn’t it?

But that’s the inconvenient truth about COVID - its just a proxy for the nationalistic urge to demonstrate that one’s country is better than all others. Actual needs be damned, it’s all about bragging rights.

I won’t single out the UK; I can’t think of a single country/bloc that isn’t complicit in it (although some are held to a higher standard, it seems). And the masks are beginning to slip:

“Wealthy countries - including the UK - are blocking proposals to help developing nations increase their vaccine manufacturing capabilities, documents leaked to BBC Newsnight show.

Several poorer countries have asked the World Health Organization to help them.

But richer nations are pushing back on provisions in international law that would enable them to achieve this.”

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-56465395

Dog-eat-dog world out there. Profit margins trumping human lives, etc. Makes one wonder if some of the posts here are hopelessly naive or deliberately misleading.

The EU’s crusade against AZ is just a more visible manifestation of what everyone is doing. Why pretend otherwise?
 
Olddog
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Sun Mar 21, 2021 4:24 pm

If 50 % of AZ vaccine have been used it also means the other 50 % are stored for the second injection....
 
marcelh
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Sun Mar 21, 2021 4:51 pm

astuteman wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
PS,
This link claims 40% of the EU vaccines are in storage in various EU states
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/eu ... NewsSearch
.


68,6 million doses delivered, 55 million administered

https://qap.ecdc.europa.eu/public/exten ... bution-tab

Best regards
Thomas


Really good link this. Thanks

Which shows that nearly all of the Pfizer has been distributed, and that nearly all of the non-administered doses are AZ and Moderna....
France has received 2.7M doses of the AZ and only administered 1.37M, or roughly 50%
Germany - 3.4M doses of the AZ and only 1.78M administered, or roughly, guess what - 50%

And you guys STILL have the gall to claim that this is a supply issue, and not a political stance issue.
Many, many thanks for the link that clearly demonstrates otherwise.....
Do you really have to wonder why AZ are reluctant to supply more vaccines when you refuse to use the ones you already have?
These can so easily save lives elsewhere until you lot have finished pissing about showing off.

I'm with GDB on this one. Please stop making it look like Boris was actually right about the EU

Rgds


You conveniently ignore the fact that the AZ vaccination has een stopped temporarily for a week because there was some unease about the AZ vaccin. Last week AZ did deliver vaccines, so there are more vaccines in stock. The numbers you are describing it's just a snapshot of the current situation and vaccination with AZ has been (or will be) continued. For example, just three weeks ago vaccination of AZ in the Netherlands delayed because of delivery issues. According to your source, AZ has only delivered 16.5 million doses to the EU, still way behind their latest target of 30 million for Q1-2021 (and a far cry from the iitial 90 million doses).

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-eu-astrazeneca/astrazeneca-further-cuts-eu-vaccine-supply-target-to-30-million-document-idUSKBN2B402Y

So stating the supply issue is fake is also ignoring the facts.
 
GDB
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Sun Mar 21, 2021 4:58 pm

The best political (as opposed to pure science and/or health policy) Op Ed on this I have seen.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... and-the-eu
 
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par13del
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:09 pm

Aesma wrote:
The UK has still more stockpile than the whole EU, are we saying vaccines are getting "unused" in the UK ?

Why would anyone say that when they are among the leading countries in distributing the vaccine?
Additionally, other than when trials were being conducted and a patient in the UK fell ill, the UK has been distributing ever since they gave approval with no delays, they even made the what I consider a dumb decision to start giving out all doses without holding supplies for the mandatory second dose because they believed in the supply chain. Heck they even increased the time between doses against OEM recommendations when the EU started further disruptions of the supply chain, so are they really sitting on doses or now being like the EU and are trying to ensure that they have the second dose on hand before giving the first?
 
AirbusCheerlead
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:24 pm

For those interested on how vaccine production ramp up has worked till now, there is an interesting link:
https://www.axios.com/covid-coronavirus ... beb44.html

For the EU the numbers seem a little low
69.5 Mio (from the link below) and 41 approved exports (number cited in may articles) we already have 110 Mio instead of 96.2. Don't know how accurate it is for other part of the world.

https://ec.europa.eu/info/live-work-tra ... ropeans_en
 
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par13del
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:37 pm

Let's ensure we have this straight. The USA by national order are / were exporting zero. India is exporting zero of their home grown vaccine, they are trying now to see if the vaccines that they are making under license can be withheld with no consequences. The EU is in the same boat, there are commercial companies with contracts and production facilities that were funded by EU and non-EU governments, that is the bane of free trade that is now rearing its ugly head.
 
AirbusCheerlead
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Sun Mar 21, 2021 8:31 pm

I also think that more AZ vaccine would have been administred if the EU had focused it's distribution more on one region (the available supply distribute among less people hence lower buffer) but just think of the shit show some of the local politician would have thrown...so no surprise that the EU didn't tray.
 
AirbusCheerlead
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Sun Mar 21, 2021 8:47 pm

par13del wrote:
Let's ensure we have this straight. The USA by national order are / were exporting zero. India is exporting zero of their home grown vaccine, they are trying now to see if the vaccines that they are making under license can be withheld with no consequences. The EU is in the same boat, there are commercial companies with contracts and production facilities that were funded by EU and non-EU governments, that is the bane of free trade that is now rearing its ugly head.


Probably not fare from the truth, but I believe it to be less dire:
First: I think the EU won't do much...
Second: While India might slow export to the west (or the UK to be more precise), I don't think they will lower the covax exports (237 million jabs of AZ through May planned)

Interesting data from covax:
https://www.who.int/news/item/02-03-202 ... llocations
And link to PDF with allocation:
https://www.who.int/publications/m/item ... rd-vaccine
 
marcelh
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Sun Mar 21, 2021 9:24 pm

astuteman wrote:
marcelh wrote:
You conveniently ignore the fact that the AZ vaccination has been stopped temporarily for a week because there was some unease about the AZ vaccin.


Ignore it? That was my very point.
While your nations are busy showboating this "unease" with the AZ vaccine in a very highly politicised way, its been given to tens of millions of UK citizens since December with no issues whatsoever. Including me, my wife, my daughters (work in care), my sister, brother-in-law, mother, uncles, aunties, work colleagues, neighbours...... all AZ
No problems whatsoever
There is so much evidence of both its efficacy and its safety, that the "unease" can very clearly be seen, certainly this side of the channel, for what it is.

Your politicians have been too busy showboating amongst themselves and gaslighting their populations whilst their people are still dying.
That used to be our domain..... Not any more, it seems
Please don't quote contract numbers.
If I were AZ and looking to save as many lives as possible, I'd be delivering doses to governments that intended to use them.
They have my full support in that sense

Defending a ban on its use and moaning about its availability in the same breath is hypocritical, in my book
Like I've said before. If your country doesn't want them ......

"Unease"....
You'll find zero sympathy for this "unease" in the UK....

I don’t understand your “if your country doesn’t want it”. We had to postpone vaccination of certain groups because the delivery of AZ was delayed. Last week, The Netherlands halted the AZ vaccination for only a few days because of the health concerns raised by other countries. And it has already been continued after the go ahead of the EMA, so there is no “ban”.

I also don’t understand why I shouldn’t quote the contract number. AZ has just 10 days left to deliver 13.5 million doses to make a total of the recently adjusted 30 million. Honestly, I don’t see that happen.

And blaming that not using the AZ vaccins does kill a lot of people.... Not getting delivered vaccines does kill a lot of more people.
 
tommy1808
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:04 am

astuteman wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
PS,
This link claims 40% of the EU vaccines are in storage in various EU states
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/eu ... NewsSearch
.


68,6 million doses delivered, 55 million administered

https://qap.ecdc.europa.eu/public/exten ... bution-tab

Best regards
Thomas


Really good link this. Thanks

Which shows that nearly all of the Pfizer has been distributed, and that nearly all of the non-administered doses are AZ and Moderna....
France has received 2.7M doses of the AZ and only administered 1.37M, or roughly 50%
Germany - 3.4M doses of the AZ and only 1.78M administered, or roughly, guess what - 50%


which is what you would expect with an unreliable supplier once you think about it.

Appointments can only be handed out when the stuff is on stock, because otherwise nobody knows when it will arrive and how much, and then you have half of is sitting on stock for the 2nd dose, since nobody knows if AZ is in the mood of delivering something. And that is no hyperbole, because "sorry folks, we pretty much won´t ship anything in the next three weeks" is what just happened.
https://www.sortiraparis.com/news/coron ... eu/lang/en

Also keep in mind that ~50% of the total AZ supply for example in Germany were delivered within the last ~2 weeks. So even if it went into arms directly from a DHL truck, you´d still have 30~35% in the warehouse just from 2nd dose safety stock. Once a supplier has demonstrated to produce reliable schedules a few weeks out, like Biontech/Pfizer did, the stuff goes into arms very quick.

Image

AZ doesn´t divert doses from other customers for the EU like they do for the UK, you know.... like trying to divert 10 million doses from a manufacturing site specifically supposed to make vaccine for poor and poorest countries....

https://www.reuters.com/article/health- ... SKCN2AV0A2

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
art
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:01 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Appointments can only be handed out when the stuff is on stock, because otherwise nobody knows when it will arrive and how much, and then you have half of is sitting on stock for the 2nd dose, since nobody knows if AZ is in the mood of delivering something. And that is no hyperbole, because "sorry folks, we pretty much won´t ship anything in the next three weeks" is what just happened.
https://www.sortiraparis.com/news/coron ... eu/lang/en

Also keep in mind that ~50% of the total AZ supply for example in Germany were delivered within the last ~2 weeks. So even if it went into arms directly from a DHL truck, you´d still have 30~35% in the warehouse just from 2nd dose safety stock. Once a supplier has demonstrated to produce reliable schedules a few weeks out, like Biontech/Pfizer did, the stuff goes into arms very quick.


Agreed, AZ are creating problems in an unacceptable fashion if the above is correct.

tommy1808 wrote:
AZ doesn´t divert doses from other customers for the EU like they do for the UK, you know.... like trying to divert 10 million doses from a manufacturing site specifically supposed to make vaccine for poor and poorest countries....

https://www.reuters.com/article/health- ... SKCN2AV0A2

best regards
Thomas


Every dose shipped to country A is a dose less for country B.

In the matter of whether UK, EU, US et al are getting their fair share, I think they are all taking the moral low ground. I do not hear any of those entities urging the vaccine companies to ensure equitable distribution between all countries so that the people in the world with the highest vulnerability are vaccinated first. If the rich cared for the poor, they would be demanding that vaccine should be directed to those with the greatest need, would they not? I just hear a load of rich states bitching about who should get the most of a product in limited supply at the cost of the poor countries.
 
tommy1808
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:12 am

art wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Appointments can only be handed out when the stuff is on stock, because otherwise nobody knows when it will arrive and how much, and then you have half of is sitting on stock for the 2nd dose, since nobody knows if AZ is in the mood of delivering something. And that is no hyperbole, because "sorry folks, we pretty much won´t ship anything in the next three weeks" is what just happened.
https://www.sortiraparis.com/news/coron ... eu/lang/en

Also keep in mind that ~50% of the total AZ supply for example in Germany were delivered within the last ~2 weeks. So even if it went into arms directly from a DHL truck, you´d still have 30~35% in the warehouse just from 2nd dose safety stock. Once a supplier has demonstrated to produce reliable schedules a few weeks out, like Biontech/Pfizer did, the stuff goes into arms very quick.


Agreed, AZ are creating problems in an unacceptable fashion if the above is correct.

tommy1808 wrote:
AZ doesn´t divert doses from other customers for the EU like they do for the UK, you know.... like trying to divert 10 million doses from a manufacturing site specifically supposed to make vaccine for poor and poorest countries....

https://www.reuters.com/article/health- ... SKCN2AV0A2

best regards
Thomas


Every dose shipped to country A is a dose less for country B.

In the matter of whether UK, EU, US et al are getting their fair share, I think they are all taking the moral low ground. I do not hear any of those entities urging the vaccine companies to ensure equitable distribution between all countries so that the people in the world with the highest vulnerability are vaccinated first. If the rich cared for the poor, they would be demanding that vaccine should be directed to those with the greatest need, would they not? I just hear a load of rich states bitching about who should get the most of a product in limited supply at the cost of the poor countries.


Words are cheap. In practice the EU does exactly what you suggest and exports about as much vaccine as it uses. Even the proposed new rules would block exports only to places with lower infection numbers/higher vaccination rates.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
art
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:37 am

tommy1808 wrote:
art wrote:
In the matter of whether UK, EU, US et al are getting their fair share, I think they are all taking the moral low ground. I do not hear any of those entities urging the vaccine companies to ensure equitable distribution between all countries so that the people in the world with the highest vulnerability are vaccinated first. If the rich cared for the poor, they would be demanding that vaccine should be directed to those with the greatest need, would they not? I just hear a load of rich states bitching about who should get the most of a product in limited supply at the cost of the poor countries.


Words are cheap. In practice the EU does exactly what you suggest and exports about as much vaccine as it uses. Even the proposed new rules would block exports only to places with lower infection numbers/higher vaccination rates.

best regards
Thomas


If EU is slow in vaccinating, other countries should be slowed down to the speed at which EU is vaccinating. If other countries shut down to reduce infection rates and succeed, EU should reduce vaccine shipments to them. Have I got that right?
 
tommy1808
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:51 am

art wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
art wrote:
In the matter of whether UK, EU, US et al are getting their fair share, I think they are all taking the moral low ground. I do not hear any of those entities urging the vaccine companies to ensure equitable distribution between all countries so that the people in the world with the highest vulnerability are vaccinated first. If the rich cared for the poor, they would be demanding that vaccine should be directed to those with the greatest need, would they not? I just hear a load of rich states bitching about who should get the most of a product in limited supply at the cost of the poor countries.


Words are cheap. In practice the EU does exactly what you suggest and exports about as much vaccine as it uses. Even the proposed new rules would block exports only to places with lower infection numbers/higher vaccination rates.

best regards
Thomas


If EU is slow in vaccinating, other countries should be slowed down to the speed at which EU is vaccinating. If other countries shut down to reduce infection rates and succeed, EU should reduce vaccine shipments to them. Have I got that right?


The EU is slow in vaccination because it is exporting its vaccine.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
art
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 22, 2021 8:27 am

tommy1808 wrote:
The EU is slow in vaccination because it is exporting its vaccine.

best regards
Thomas


Found this in The Guardian (a non-stupid English) newspaper:

The British government has repeatedly said it has not imposed an export ban on vaccine components or completed doses, but it did ensure that vaccine doses produced by Oxford/AstraZeneca at the sites in Staffordshire and Oxford would supply Britain first.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... fair-share

Ensuring that all demand in UK is satisfied before any vaccine is exported sounds 100% like a temporary export ban to me. It sounds like the UK government is interfering with the execution of AZ's commercial contracts.
 
tommy1808
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 22, 2021 8:35 am

art wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
The EU is slow in vaccination because it is exporting its vaccine.

best regards
Thomas


Found this in The Guardian (a non-stupid English) newspaper:

The British government has repeatedly said it has not imposed an export ban on vaccine components or completed doses, but it did ensure that vaccine doses produced by Oxford/AstraZeneca at the sites in Staffordshire and Oxford would supply Britain first.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... fair-share

Ensuring that all demand in UK is satisfied before any vaccine is exported sounds 100% like a temporary export ban to me. It sounds like the UK government is interfering with the execution of AZ's commercial contracts.


That is what they do. AZ assigned six manufacturing sites to making vaccine for the EU under a "no competing obligation" agreement, ordered before the UK did, and now three of those somehow work exclusively to fill UKs demand first.... two in the UK and one in the Netherlands.

A rose by any other name would smell as sweet......

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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moo
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 22, 2021 8:37 am

art wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
The EU is slow in vaccination because it is exporting its vaccine.

best regards
Thomas


Found this in The Guardian (a non-stupid English) newspaper:

The British government has repeatedly said it has not imposed an export ban on vaccine components or completed doses, but it did ensure that vaccine doses produced by Oxford/AstraZeneca at the sites in Staffordshire and Oxford would supply Britain first.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... fair-share

Ensuring that all demand in UK is satisfied before any vaccine is exported sounds 100% like a temporary export ban to me. It sounds like the UK government is interfering with the execution of AZ's commercial contracts.


Theres no interference and no ban - under the deal that the UK government brokered between Oxford and AZ, and under the terms of the development funding given, AZ must offer all UK production to the UK government first, and only if refused can then export it. The UK government simply has an overriding contract with AZ to this effect, which was in place before AZ made any agreement with the EU - why should the EU contracts override the one the UK has?

A ban would mean there is something outside of any agreement between AZ and the UK government, made unilaterally by said government, and that is not the case - the restriction is based in the terms of the agreements Oxford and AZ entered into.
 
WIederling
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 22, 2021 8:54 am

astuteman wrote:
marcelh wrote:
You conveniently ignore the fact that the AZ vaccination has been stopped temporarily for a week because there was some unease about the AZ vaccin.


Ignore it? That was my very point.
While your nations are busy showboating this "unease" with the AZ vaccine in a very highly politicised way, its been given to tens of millions of UK citizens since December with no issues whatsoever. Including me, my wife, my daughters (work in care), my sister, brother-in-law, mother, uncles, aunties, work colleagues, neighbours...... all AZ
No problems whatsoever
There is so much evidence of both its efficacy and its safety, that the "unease" can very clearly be seen, certainly this side of the channel, for what it is.

Your politicians have been too busy showboating amongst themselves and gaslighting their populations whilst their people are still dying.
That used to be our domain..... Not any more, it seems
Please don't quote contract numbers.
If I were AZ and looking to save as many lives as possible, I'd be delivering doses to governments that intended to use them.
They have my full support in that sense

Defending a ban on its use and moaning about its availability in the same breath is hypocritical, in my book
Like I've said before. If your country doesn't want them ......

"Unease"....
You'll find zero sympathy for this "unease" in the UK....


comparable numbers in the UK and i EU:
In the UK, five cases of cerebral sinus vein thrombosis (CSVT), among 11 million people who have received the vaccine, occurred in men aged between 19 and 59. One of these was fatal.

The EMA has received an additional 13 reports of CSVT.

src: https://www.bbc.com/news/health-56447367

the difference is in the liability.
UK : state : tut tut the cases. don't potentially reach in your own pocket.
EU: producer : EMA is (more or less) neutral in looking at the issue.

AZ opposition appears to be a grassroots wildfire here in Germany. ( No idea if it is genuine or synthetic.)
Last edited by WIederling on Mon Mar 22, 2021 8:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
Murphy is an optimist
 
tommy1808
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 22, 2021 8:55 am

moo wrote:
art wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
The EU is slow in vaccination because it is exporting its vaccine.

best regards
Thomas


Found this in The Guardian (a non-stupid English) newspaper:

The British government has repeatedly said it has not imposed an export ban on vaccine components or completed doses, but it did ensure that vaccine doses produced by Oxford/AstraZeneca at the sites in Staffordshire and Oxford would supply Britain first.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... fair-share

Ensuring that all demand in UK is satisfied before any vaccine is exported sounds 100% like a temporary export ban to me. It sounds like the UK government is interfering with the execution of AZ's commercial contracts.


Theres no interference and no ban - under the deal that the UK government brokered between Oxford and AZ, and under the terms of the development funding given, AZ must offer all UK production to the UK government first, and only if refused can then export it. The UK government simply has an overriding contract with AZ to this effect, which was in place before AZ made any agreement with the EU - why should the EU contracts override the one the UK has?


because AZ has signed a contract saying no such overriding obligation exists perhaps?

The proper way would be to split the supply AZ sold twice, and argue who gets to imprison AZs board members first.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
art
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 22, 2021 8:59 am

#moo

Thanks. In that case I find it right that AZ's UK output should do what it says in the contract - supply the UK first. A goodwill gesture towards the EU would not go amiss, though.

What does not help is a bunch of chauvinistic media owners/editors/journalists/idiots in the UK inflaming the situation with their infantile anti-foreigner invective. Again, if the UK government cannot control the pondlife press, they can extend a hand of co-operation to the EU.and would do well to do so.
 
tommy1808
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:02 am

art wrote:
#moo

Thanks. In that case I find it right that AZ's UK output should do what it says in the contract - supply the UK first..


so.. you are saying the UK should get the output because they have a contract saying so, but the EU should not, despite having a contract saying so?

What does not help is a bunch of chauvinistic media owners/editors/journalists/idiots in the UK inflaming the situation with their infantile anti-foreigner invective. Again, if the UK government cannot control the pondlife press, they can extend a hand of co-operation to the EU.and would do well to do so.


Due to AZ being perfectly aware that they can hide selling production capacity only until the EU calls their bluff, they had their spin ready to go, and pushed that hard into media channels.

Even the "UK ordered first" nonsense is amazingly persistent despite the UK and EU contracts now being public saying that wasn´t so.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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moo
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:20 am

tommy1808 wrote:
moo wrote:
art wrote:

Found this in The Guardian (a non-stupid English) newspaper:



https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... fair-share

Ensuring that all demand in UK is satisfied before any vaccine is exported sounds 100% like a temporary export ban to me. It sounds like the UK government is interfering with the execution of AZ's commercial contracts.


Theres no interference and no ban - under the deal that the UK government brokered between Oxford and AZ, and under the terms of the development funding given, AZ must offer all UK production to the UK government first, and only if refused can then export it. The UK government simply has an overriding contract with AZ to this effect, which was in place before AZ made any agreement with the EU - why should the EU contracts override the one the UK has?


because AZ has signed a contract saying no such overriding obligation exists perhaps?

The proper way would be to split the supply AZ sold twice, and argue who gets to imprison AZs board members first.

best regards
Thomas


Thats AZs problem, not the UKs.

My post was talking as to the why of the situation - not a unilateral ban, a prior contractual limitation. The UK gets first refusal of the production of the UK plants, and theres nothing the EU can do about that because of where the plants are located - what the EU do with AZ is not the UKs concern.
 
tommy1808
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:28 am

moo wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
moo wrote:

Theres no interference and no ban - under the deal that the UK government brokered between Oxford and AZ, and under the terms of the development funding given, AZ must offer all UK production to the UK government first, and only if refused can then export it. The UK government simply has an overriding contract with AZ to this effect, which was in place before AZ made any agreement with the EU - why should the EU contracts override the one the UK has?


because AZ has signed a contract saying no such overriding obligation exists perhaps?

The proper way would be to split the supply AZ sold twice, and argue who gets to imprison AZs board members first.

best regards
Thomas


Thats AZs problem, not the UKs.


its also AZs problem and not the EUs.

The UK gets first refusal of the production of the UK plants, and theres nothing the EU can do about that because of where the plants are located


one is in the Netherlands, and the vector is from Belgium.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
art
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:44 am

tommy1808 wrote:
art wrote:
#moo

Thanks. In that case I find it right that AZ's UK output should do what it says in the contract - supply the UK first..


so.. you are saying the UK should get the output because they have a contract saying so, but the EU should not, despite having a contract saying so?


If AZ made a contract with the UK government before making one with the EU which they cannot honour, given their earlier contract, AZ's lawyers should be shot... but I have heard that AZ's contract with the EU has a get out clause whereby delivery is not guaranteed. Now I am wondering if the EU's lawyers should be shot for not warning their client of possible delay in delivery implicit in the contract..

Perhaps we should be a little less fixated on how vaccine supplies should be split between the EU and the UK and take a little more interest in getting vaccine distributed worldwide.
 
flipdewaf
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:46 am

"Best Reasonable Efforts" is getting clearer and clearer by the day....

Fred
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tommy1808
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 22, 2021 10:15 am

art wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
art wrote:
#moo

Thanks. In that case I find it right that AZ's UK output should do what it says in the contract - supply the UK first..


so.. you are saying the UK should get the output because they have a contract saying so, but the EU should not, despite having a contract saying so?


If AZ made a contract with the UK government before making one with the EU which they cannot honour, given their earlier contract, AZ's lawyers should be shot... but I have heard that AZ's contract with the EU has a get out clause whereby delivery is not guaranteed..


Specific timing is not guaranteed, but that only counts assuming everything else in the contract is actually true (i.e. no competing obligations) and in good faith. Problems with the ramp up, or a factory fire, or a Cargo plane with components crashing is covered by that, shipping output of three of six sites under a no competing obligation agreement to somebody else, and then claiming "we can´t deliver since half of those have competing obligations", is not.

Hence, despite all manufacturers having problems to some degree, only AZ is on the unhappy list. Those others didn´t lie about pre-existing obligations.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
art
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 22, 2021 11:00 am

tommy1808 wrote:
art wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

so.. you are saying the UK should get the output because they have a contract saying so, but the EU should not, despite having a contract saying so?


If AZ made a contract with the UK government before making one with the EU which they cannot honour, given their earlier contract, AZ's lawyers should be shot... but I have heard that AZ's contract with the EU has a get out clause whereby delivery is not guaranteed..


Specific timing is not guaranteed, but that only counts assuming everything else in the contract is actually true (i.e. no competing obligations) and in good faith. Problems with the ramp up, or a factory fire, or a Cargo plane with components crashing is covered by that, shipping output of three of six sites under a no competing obligation agreement to somebody else, and then claiming "we can´t deliver since half of those have competing obligations", is not.

Hence, despite all manufacturers having problems to some degree, only AZ is on the unhappy list. Those others didn´t lie about pre-existing obligations.

best regards
Thomas


Do you know what is in the contracts between AZ and UK and AZ and EU and in what jurisdiction each was made? If the contract with EU was made under English law, EU can go to an English court to ask the court to order AZ to observe its contract with EU. If made under EU law I imagine there should be a similar way to seek a remedy. I hope EU does go to court.
 
tommy1808
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 22, 2021 11:27 am

art wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
art wrote:

If AZ made a contract with the UK government before making one with the EU which they cannot honour, given their earlier contract, AZ's lawyers should be shot... but I have heard that AZ's contract with the EU has a get out clause whereby delivery is not guaranteed..


Specific timing is not guaranteed, but that only counts assuming everything else in the contract is actually true (i.e. no competing obligations) and in good faith. Problems with the ramp up, or a factory fire, or a Cargo plane with components crashing is covered by that, shipping output of three of six sites under a no competing obligation agreement to somebody else, and then claiming "we can´t deliver since half of those have competing obligations", is not.

Hence, despite all manufacturers having problems to some degree, only AZ is on the unhappy list. Those others didn´t lie about pre-existing obligations.

best regards
Thomas


Do you know what is in the contracts between AZ and UK and AZ and EU and in what jurisdiction each was made? If the contract with EU was made under English law, EU can go to an English court to ask the court to order AZ to observe its contract with EU. .


The EU-AZ contract is under Belgium law. The UK-AZ contract is under UK law (with some EU directives tossed in for good meassure).

Additional problem: The UKs contract is with AstraZeneca UK limited, the EU contract with AstraZeneca AB.......

If made under EU law I imagine there should be a similar way to seek a remedy. I hope EU does go to court


That may take a tat long, and the contract requires an attempt at an out of court solution first. Applying pre-existing legal means, the export control option existed before Covid, is the quicker way, and certainly out-of-court.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
gkirk
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 22, 2021 11:58 am

The row does nobody any good.

I suspect most Brits would love to see Europe get vaccinated at the same pace as the UK is piling out vaccinations. If only, because we all want to go to Spain and drink Sangria :D
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
art
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 22, 2021 12:14 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
The EU-AZ contract is under Belgium law. The UK-AZ contract is under UK law (with some EU directives tossed in for good meassure).

Additional problem: The UKs contract is with AstraZeneca UK limited, the EU contract with AstraZeneca AB.......

If made under EU law I imagine there should be a similar way to seek a remedy. I hope EU does go to court


That may take a tat long, and the contract requires an attempt at an out of court solution first. Applying pre-existing legal means, the export control option existed before Covid, is the quicker way, and certainly out-of-court.

best regards
Thomas


Political intervention sounds the quickest way but it does not resolve AZ's obligations under the contract according to Belgian law by the sound of things. It might result in headaches later on if AZ's actions are subsequently judged to have respected the contract. Also I imagine that political action to circumvent legal process will not be seen well by all in UK political circles.

I get the impression that the EU signed a contract it would have done better to avoid or AZ signed a contract which could be frustrated due to the signature of an earlier contract with the UK government. One or both parties got it wrong, it seems to me.
 
tommy1808
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 22, 2021 12:20 pm

art wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
The EU-AZ contract is under Belgium law. The UK-AZ contract is under UK law (with some EU directives tossed in for good meassure).

Additional problem: The UKs contract is with AstraZeneca UK limited, the EU contract with AstraZeneca AB.......

If made under EU law I imagine there should be a similar way to seek a remedy. I hope EU does go to court


That may take a tat long, and the contract requires an attempt at an out of court solution first. Applying pre-existing legal means, the export control option existed before Covid, is the quicker way, and certainly out-of-court.

best regards
Thomas


does not resolve AZ's obligations under the contract


Correct, but between AZ having a problem and the EU having a problem i would chose AZ having the problem any day, and twice on Sundays.

"Do first and sort out potential legal issues later" is what AZ has been doing for the last couple of month, the EU turning that around would just be fair play.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Ertro
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 22, 2021 1:23 pm

art wrote:
I get the impression that the EU signed a contract it would have done better to avoid or AZ signed a contract which could be frustrated due to the signature of an earlier contract with the UK government.


There have been several claims that UK signed first but I don't know where that information comes from.

As far as I know EU signed first on 26th of August 2020 and UK two days later on 28th.

EU conract: https://ec.europa.eu/commission/pressco ... Zeneca.pdf
UK contract: https://www.contractsfinder.service.gov ... 99aecc753d
 
Derico
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 22, 2021 1:25 pm

I wanted to wait a few long weeks for this whole story to develop before making a comment, but it is now clear, not just base on the AZ blood clot mishandling (no matter whether there was any concern or not, the way it was handled in the public forum was horrendous), but in item after item (vaccine procurement and number of shots, vaccine contracts and their legal details, distribution, political gaffe after gaffe in multiple countries about vaccines), and culminating with export bans that have opened a massive Pandora's box for world trade in the future... it is clear that Brussels and individual EU governments so far in 2021 have managed to pull off an appalling vaccination effort and atrocious side effects for public sentiment and in rules of engagement for international trade and contracts. Just as Trump's USA was mocked, just as Johnson's Britain was mocked at one point, just as other parts of the world have been called out, no exception here. The EU has failed miserably, for such a wealthy continent to be behind a half to a full dozen or more developing nations in this effort is pretty damning.
My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
 
art
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 22, 2021 1:45 pm

Re: criticism above, I find it difficult to understand why EU countries have been so slow to vaccinate compared to UK.

Yes, EMA approved a vaccine some time after UK authority but England has reached 42%+ first dose for population. EU countries are way, way behind, I think. Vaccine hesitancy in EU countries - does that actually slow jabs down? I would think that people who were not sure would be replaced by people who were sure they wanted vaccination.

Why is EU so, so slow?
 
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par13del
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 22, 2021 2:00 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Words are cheap. In practice the EU does exactly what you suggest and exports about as much vaccine as it uses. Even the proposed new rules would block exports only to places with lower infection numbers/higher vaccination rates.

best regards
Thomas

To be clear, what exactly are you saying, that the EU as a trading bloc is exporting vaccines or that the EU as a regulatory trade body is allowing private companies with contracts to non-EU governments to fulfill their contractual obligations? Just want to be sure as you have previously said that the EU should put AZ in court for not meeting its obligations and perpetuating fraud, such thoughts would not be logical is at the same time you use political measure to ensure that contracts to other countries are broken.
 
marcelh
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 22, 2021 2:02 pm

Derico wrote:
I wanted to wait a few long weeks for this whole story to develop before making a comment, but it is now clear, not just base on the AZ blood clot mishandling (no matter whether there was any concern or not, the way it was handled in the public forum was horrendous), but in item after item (vaccine procurement and number of shots, vaccine contracts and their legal details, distribution, political gaffe after gaffe in multiple countries about vaccines), and culminating with export bans that have opened a massive Pandora's box for world trade in the future... it is clear that Brussels and individual EU governments so far in 2021 have managed to pull off an appalling vaccination effort and atrocious side effects for public sentiment and in rules of engagement for international trade and contracts. Just as Trump's USA was mocked, just as Johnson's Britain was mocked at one point, just as other parts of the world have been called out, no exception here. The EU has failed miserably, for such a wealthy continent to be behind a half to a full dozen or more developing nations in this effort is pretty damning.


You may have missed the fact that AZ promised to deliver 90 million doses in Q1, but with 9 days left they have only delivered 16.6 million and have stated they can only deliver 30 million doses... Those 60 million doses short is the entire population of the UK of 18 years and older.... And yes, the EU is to blame, but you just seem to ignore the fact that the UK has "annexed" the Dutch production site of AZ to claim it as part of the "UK production chain".
 
marcelh
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 22, 2021 2:05 pm

art wrote:
Re: criticism above, I find it difficult to understand why EU countries have been so slow to vaccinate compared to UK.

Yes, EMA approved a vaccine some time after UK authority but England has reached 42%+ first dose for population. EU countries are way, way behind, I think. Vaccine hesitancy in EU countries - does that actually slow jabs down? I would think that people who were not sure would be replaced by people who were sure they wanted vaccination.

Why is EU so, so slow?

Because the EU has a population about 6.5 times larger than the UK? And the UK was lucky their bet on the AZ vaccin paid out very well. And as stated before: AZ initally promised to deliver 90 million doses to the EU in Q1 and failed "a bit".
 
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par13del
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 22, 2021 2:08 pm

art wrote:
Re: criticism above, I find it difficult to understand why EU countries have been so slow to vaccinate compared to UK.

Yes, EMA approved a vaccine some time after UK authority but England has reached 42%+ first dose for population. EU countries are way, way behind, I think. Vaccine hesitancy in EU countries - does that actually slow jabs down? I would think that people who were not sure would be replaced by people who were sure they wanted vaccination.

Why is EU so, so slow?

We are told by EU posters that they are not slow, they are doing two things:
1. Waiting until they have all doses in hand for vaccines that require two doses.
2. Waiting for fraudulent AZ to deliver based on their contract.

Mention is also made about propaganda in the non-EU press about vaccine hesitancy and official making claims about export bans, none of which may be true.

So are they really slow or are we just creating a tempest in a tea pot, I admit to reading a lot and the situation is as clear as mud so I ask questions like most others.
 
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BaconButty
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 22, 2021 2:08 pm

Ertro wrote:
There have been several claims that UK signed first but I don't know where that information comes from.

As far as I know EU signed first on 26th of August 2020 and UK two days later on 28th.

EU conract: https://ec.europa.eu/commission/pressco ... Zeneca.pdf
UK contract: https://www.contractsfinder.service.gov ... 99aecc753d


The "claims" come from any number of articles and press releases from May 2020. E.g.

AstraZeneca will begin supplying an order of 100 million doses of a Covid-19 vaccine for British people in September - if ongoing trials prove successful.

CEO Pascal Soriot confirmed on Sunday (May 24) that the UK government had ordered the doses of the University of Oxford’s vaccine candidate, which AstraZeneca will produce.
And he said he was “quite confident” the vaccine would work - but stressed there was a “race” on to prove its efficacy through trials with volunteers as coronavirus cases in the community declined.

“We have to run as far as possible before the disease disappears so we can demonstrate that the vaccine is indeed effective,” he said, revealing that trials were also going ahead in Brazil, which is firmly in the grip of Covid-19.

AstraZeneca announced last week that it had concluded the first agreements for at least 400 million doses of the vaccine.

Health secretary Matt Hancock has said the first 30 million doses for the UK could be available by September.

The United States has ordered 300 million doses, as part of President Donald Trump’s Operation Warp Speed initiative to speed up vaccine production.

https://www.cambridgeindependent.co.uk/ ... d-9110892/

Here's the press release from AZ (Both US and UK orders)
https://www.astrazeneca.com/content/ast ... ccine.html

Now, what do you think is more likely:

1. AZ and the UK government faked the above as part of some long game to rob the glorious EU of vaccines or
2. The contracts have been periodically renegotiated as timescales have slipped - hence the date on the UK contract

Now, I'm not frothing at the mouth nor chewing on my carpet, so I'll go for 2. Likewise with the "no competing obligations" that keeps getting brought up. Two options:

1. AZ and the EU just forgot about the UK and US orders
2. Each of the EU, US and UK were about establishing domestic supply chains, and for the EU supply chain as intended there were no competing obligations

Again, I don't have a pair of underpants on my head and a pencil up each nostril, so I'm going for 2. But just incase here's the press release for the EU order:

Pascal Soriot, Chief Executive Officer, said: “This first vaccine agreement with the European Commission will ensure that millions of Europeans have access to the AZD1222 vaccine following its approval. With production in our European supply chain soon to be started, we hope to make the vaccine available widely and rapidly, with the first doses to be delivered by the end of 2020. I would like to thank the entire European Commission, and especially the Commissioner for Health and Food Safety, Stella Kyriakides, for their swift response in ensuring Europeans may soon be protected with a vaccine against this deadly virus, enabling our global society and economy to rebuild.”

https://www.astrazeneca.com/content/ast ... ccine.html
Down with that sort of thing!

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