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tommy1808
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:44 pm

astuteman wrote:
But the threat of bans, by the way, is the last way of doing that successfully.


oh i agree, negotiation is always better than bans. But negotiation have led exactly nowhere in the last two month since AZ suddenly discovered they would fall 75% short on deliveries, by coincidence just when the EMA announced to approve the vaccine next Friday. And since then they have just piled onto that heap...

Those 29 million doses hidden in a warehouse, that would have saved thousands of lives if distributed, just pushed even the most patient people across the line. And they where literally hidden there, that is no hyperbole, they told no one about it, did not make them part of any shipping schedule, pretended reduced deliveries from India hampered their ability to deliver on time, and didn´t even apply for an export license.

Honestly, how would you react had Biontech decided to fill EU orders first, 5 Million Brits would not have gotten their vaccine, thousands more would have died, and then you´d find out 10 million shots had been sitting idle in a warehouse in Wales doing nothing while Biontech claimed production problems... ?

Given how Downing street essentially threatened to shut down the Biontech production in Europe completely if the EU even puts minor breaks on shipments, i know what they would have down: kicking down the door to liberate that vaccine.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
tommy1808
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:45 pm

WIederling wrote:
astuteman wrote:
But the threat of bans, by the way, is the last way of doing that successfully.
That just smacks of more political posturing for the sake of covering arses


IMU: The US has embargoed _export_ of all vaccine components from day one apparently.


actually just as far as procurement under the DPA was concerned, not anything beyond

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
sabenapilot
Topic Author
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:59 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
astuteman wrote:
But the threat of bans, by the way, is the last way of doing that successfully.


Those 29 million doses hidden in a warehouse, that would have saved thousands of lives if distributed, just pushed even the most patient people across the line. And they where literally hidden there, that is no hyperbole, they told no one about it, did not make them part of any shipping schedule, pretended reduced deliveries from India hampered their ability to deliver on time, and didn´t even apply for an export license.


Incredibly as it sounds, it is in fact true!

Over the past few months, A-Z apparently has produced (at least) 28m additional 'black market' doses within the EU, without any notification of this whatsoever to either the EMA or any of the EU's national authorities, be it in The Netherlands (where they were reportedly produced) or Italy (where they were filled and subsequently prepared for shipping to the UK).

At the same time A-Z was revising it contractually promissed deliveries to the EU from 120m to just 30m in Q1 and with days to go, has not even delivered 2/3rds of that low amount!

After it became mandatory to inform the EU of any export of vaccines, A-Z suddenly had a huge problem at hands with its 'black market' doses, since it could no longer ship them out unnoticed, so at first they tested the water with a modest shipment to Australia and after it got refused, they decided to just store these 29m doses hoping the EU would soon lose interest as other manufaturers would step in and fill the delivery void they had created, while the UK played along and pretended a revised vaccination scheme was suddenly needed for the UK due to delivery issues from India?!

Sadly for A-Z, once the EU smells there's something fishy, they don't back down so easily, quite on the contrary.

Black market production, that is something for the mafia , not for a respected pharmaceutical company!
And playing along in such mafia scheme is something for rough countries, not 'friends and allies' across the Channel as BoJo would say.
Both sould face serious consequences, IMHO.
 
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par13del
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:06 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
astuteman wrote:
But the threat of bans, by the way, is the last way of doing that successfully.


Those 29 million doses hidden in a warehouse, that would have saved thousands of lives if distributed, just pushed even the most patient people across the line. And they where literally hidden there, that is no hyperbole, they told no one about it, did not make them part of any shipping schedule, pretended reduced deliveries from India hampered their ability to deliver on time, and didn´t even apply for an export license.


Incredibly as it sounds, it is in fact true!

Over the past few months, A-Z apparently has produced (at least) 28m additional 'black market' doses within the EU, without any notification of this whatsoever to either the EMA or any of the EU's national authorities, be it in The Netherlands (where they were reportedly produced) or Italy (where they were filled and subsequently prepared for shipping to the UK).

At the same time A-Z was revising it contractually promissed deliveries to the EU from 120m to just 30m in Q1 and with days to go, has not even delivered 2/3rds of that low amount!

After it became mandatory to inform the EU of any export of vaccines, A-Z suddenly had a huge problem at hands with its 'black market' doses, since it could no longer ship them out unnoticed, so at first they tested the water with a modest shipment to Australia and after it got refused, they decided to just store these 29m doses hoping the EU would soon lose interest as other manufaturers would step in and fill the delivery void they had created, while the UK played along and pretended a revised vaccination scheme was suddenly needed for the UK due to delivery issues from India?!

Sadly for A-Z, once the EU smells there's something fishy, they don't back down so easily, quite on the contrary.

Black market production, that is something for the mafia , not for a respected pharmaceutical company!
And playing along in such mafia scheme is something for rough countries, not 'friends and allies' across the Channel as BoJo would say.
Both sould face serious consequences, IMHO.

The only issue I have with all that is whether the top brass of AZ in Europe making those decisions are actually Europeans living and working in Europe or foreigners working outside of Europe, how could a European not know the mindset set of the EU or their fellow Europeans on the continent? Does this indicate this whole thing is being masterminded by persons outside of the EU?
 
JJJ
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:17 pm

par13del wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

Those 29 million doses hidden in a warehouse, that would have saved thousands of lives if distributed, just pushed even the most patient people across the line. And they where literally hidden there, that is no hyperbole, they told no one about it, did not make them part of any shipping schedule, pretended reduced deliveries from India hampered their ability to deliver on time, and didn´t even apply for an export license.


Incredibly as it sounds, it is in fact true!

Over the past few months, A-Z apparently has produced (at least) 28m additional 'black market' doses within the EU, without any notification of this whatsoever to either the EMA or any of the EU's national authorities, be it in The Netherlands (where they were reportedly produced) or Italy (where they were filled and subsequently prepared for shipping to the UK).

At the same time A-Z was revising it contractually promissed deliveries to the EU from 120m to just 30m in Q1 and with days to go, has not even delivered 2/3rds of that low amount!

After it became mandatory to inform the EU of any export of vaccines, A-Z suddenly had a huge problem at hands with its 'black market' doses, since it could no longer ship them out unnoticed, so at first they tested the water with a modest shipment to Australia and after it got refused, they decided to just store these 29m doses hoping the EU would soon lose interest as other manufaturers would step in and fill the delivery void they had created, while the UK played along and pretended a revised vaccination scheme was suddenly needed for the UK due to delivery issues from India?!

Sadly for A-Z, once the EU smells there's something fishy, they don't back down so easily, quite on the contrary.

Black market production, that is something for the mafia , not for a respected pharmaceutical company!
And playing along in such mafia scheme is something for rough countries, not 'friends and allies' across the Channel as BoJo would say.
Both sould face serious consequences, IMHO.

The only issue I have with all that is whether the top brass of AZ in Europe making those decisions are actually Europeans living and working in Europe or foreigners working outside of Europe, how could a European not know the mindset set of the EU or their fellow Europeans on the continent? Does this indicate this whole thing is being masterminded by persons outside of the EU?


When you're in the board of a company your objective tends to be to maximise shareholder value. Governments (including your own) be damned.

I'm pretty sure that at some point during this they really thought they could comply with their overoptimistic forecasts, then reality set in and decisions were made, probably of the "how much can we get away with" type.

They surely miscalculated the amount of media and government scrutiny the whole situation would get, which considering we are in the middle of the worst pandemic in the media age was almost laughably short sighted.
 
tommy1808
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:32 pm

JJJ wrote:
par13del wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:

Incredibly as it sounds, it is in fact true!

Over the past few months, A-Z apparently has produced (at least) 28m additional 'black market' doses within the EU, without any notification of this whatsoever to either the EMA or any of the EU's national authorities, be it in The Netherlands (where they were reportedly produced) or Italy (where they were filled and subsequently prepared for shipping to the UK).

At the same time A-Z was revising it contractually promissed deliveries to the EU from 120m to just 30m in Q1 and with days to go, has not even delivered 2/3rds of that low amount!

After it became mandatory to inform the EU of any export of vaccines, A-Z suddenly had a huge problem at hands with its 'black market' doses, since it could no longer ship them out unnoticed, so at first they tested the water with a modest shipment to Australia and after it got refused, they decided to just store these 29m doses hoping the EU would soon lose interest as other manufaturers would step in and fill the delivery void they had created, while the UK played along and pretended a revised vaccination scheme was suddenly needed for the UK due to delivery issues from India?!

Sadly for A-Z, once the EU smells there's something fishy, they don't back down so easily, quite on the contrary.

Black market production, that is something for the mafia , not for a respected pharmaceutical company!
And playing along in such mafia scheme is something for rough countries, not 'friends and allies' across the Channel as BoJo would say.
Both sould face serious consequences, IMHO.

The only issue I have with all that is whether the top brass of AZ in Europe making those decisions are actually Europeans living and working in Europe or foreigners working outside of Europe, how could a European not know the mindset set of the EU or their fellow Europeans on the continent? Does this indicate this whole thing is being masterminded by persons outside of the EU?


When you're in the board of a company your objective tends to be to maximise shareholder value. Governments (including your own) be damned.

I'm pretty sure that at some point during this they really thought they could comply with their overoptimistic forecasts, then reality set in and decisions were made, probably of the "how much can we get away with" type.

They surely miscalculated the amount of media and government scrutiny the whole situation would get, which considering we are in the middle of the worst pandemic in the media age was almost laughably short sighted.


and once you realize you are in deep, deep trouble, keeping one customer happy to have political backing is the obvious move. Since they where so extremely optimistic with their ramp up plans that keeping the EU happy was impossible, picking the UK was the only game in town. Plus of course Boris would not think twice about blocking exports if they didn´t.

And with a little luck they may have gotten away with it with no more than a banged up image. They currently might be asking lawyers if manslaughter charges can be brought on a statistical basis instead.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
CranfordBoy
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:33 pm

par13del wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

Those 29 million doses hidden in a warehouse, that would have saved thousands of lives if distributed, just pushed even the most patient people across the line. And they where literally hidden there, that is no hyperbole, they told no one about it, did not make them part of any shipping schedule, pretended reduced deliveries from India hampered their ability to deliver on time, and didn´t even apply for an export license.


Incredibly as it sounds, it is in fact true!

Over the past few months, A-Z apparently has produced (at least) 28m additional 'black market' doses within the EU, without any notification of this whatsoever to either the EMA or any of the EU's national authorities, be it in The Netherlands (where they were reportedly produced) or Italy (where they were filled and subsequently prepared for shipping to the UK).

At the same time A-Z was revising it contractually promissed deliveries to the EU from 120m to just 30m in Q1 and with days to go, has not even delivered 2/3rds of that low amount!

After it became mandatory to inform the EU of any export of vaccines, A-Z suddenly had a huge problem at hands with its 'black market' doses, since it could no longer ship them out unnoticed, so at first they tested the water with a modest shipment to Australia and after it got refused, they decided to just store these 29m doses hoping the EU would soon lose interest as other manufaturers would step in and fill the delivery void they had created, while the UK played along and pretended a revised vaccination scheme was suddenly needed for the UK due to delivery issues from India?!

Sadly for A-Z, once the EU smells there's something fishy, they don't back down so easily, quite on the contrary.

Black market production, that is something for the mafia , not for a respected pharmaceutical company!
And playing along in such mafia scheme is something for rough countries, not 'friends and allies' across the Channel as BoJo would say.
Both sould face serious consequences, IMHO.

The only issue I have with all that is whether the top brass of AZ in Europe making those decisions are actually Europeans living and working in Europe or foreigners working outside of Europe, how could a European not know the mindset set of the EU or their fellow Europeans on the continent? Does this indicate this whole thing is being masterminded by persons outside of the EU?



You really need to rein it in and get your facts straight. Those vaccine doses are bound for Belgium, not the UK:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-5650 ... type=share
 
tommy1808
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:45 pm

CranfordBoy wrote:
par13del wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:

Incredibly as it sounds, it is in fact true!

Over the past few months, A-Z apparently has produced (at least) 28m additional 'black market' doses within the EU, without any notification of this whatsoever to either the EMA or any of the EU's national authorities, be it in The Netherlands (where they were reportedly produced) or Italy (where they were filled and subsequently prepared for shipping to the UK).

At the same time A-Z was revising it contractually promissed deliveries to the EU from 120m to just 30m in Q1 and with days to go, has not even delivered 2/3rds of that low amount!

After it became mandatory to inform the EU of any export of vaccines, A-Z suddenly had a huge problem at hands with its 'black market' doses, since it could no longer ship them out unnoticed, so at first they tested the water with a modest shipment to Australia and after it got refused, they decided to just store these 29m doses hoping the EU would soon lose interest as other manufaturers would step in and fill the delivery void they had created, while the UK played along and pretended a revised vaccination scheme was suddenly needed for the UK due to delivery issues from India?!

Sadly for A-Z, once the EU smells there's something fishy, they don't back down so easily, quite on the contrary.

Black market production, that is something for the mafia , not for a respected pharmaceutical company!
And playing along in such mafia scheme is something for rough countries, not 'friends and allies' across the Channel as BoJo would say.
Both sould face serious consequences, IMHO.

The only issue I have with all that is whether the top brass of AZ in Europe making those decisions are actually Europeans living and working in Europe or foreigners working outside of Europe, how could a European not know the mindset set of the EU or their fellow Europeans on the continent? Does this indicate this whole thing is being masterminded by persons outside of the EU?



You really need to rein it in and get your facts straight. Those vaccine doses are bound for Belgium, not the UK:


Funny how AstraZeneca completely forgot about a plan to ship 30 million vaccine doses to the EU, and was just waiting for the trucks to arrive, when they just two weeks ago announced there practically won´t be any shipments to the EU in the next three weeks. I am sure AstraZeneca just misplaced 30 million doses, honest mistake, and is just as happy as everybody else that Italy stumbled across them. Thank the Lord.

The only surprise is that the lame attempt at spin they had ready to go for this very moment is so lame, and so obviously doesn´t make any sense.
Unless of course those doses where supposed to be flown to the UK from an Airport in Belgium.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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par13del
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:47 pm

JJJ wrote:
par13del wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:

Incredibly as it sounds, it is in fact true!

Over the past few months, A-Z apparently has produced (at least) 28m additional 'black market' doses within the EU, without any notification of this whatsoever to either the EMA or any of the EU's national authorities, be it in The Netherlands (where they were reportedly produced) or Italy (where they were filled and subsequently prepared for shipping to the UK).

At the same time A-Z was revising it contractually promissed deliveries to the EU from 120m to just 30m in Q1 and with days to go, has not even delivered 2/3rds of that low amount!

After it became mandatory to inform the EU of any export of vaccines, A-Z suddenly had a huge problem at hands with its 'black market' doses, since it could no longer ship them out unnoticed, so at first they tested the water with a modest shipment to Australia and after it got refused, they decided to just store these 29m doses hoping the EU would soon lose interest as other manufaturers would step in and fill the delivery void they had created, while the UK played along and pretended a revised vaccination scheme was suddenly needed for the UK due to delivery issues from India?!

Sadly for A-Z, once the EU smells there's something fishy, they don't back down so easily, quite on the contrary.

Black market production, that is something for the mafia , not for a respected pharmaceutical company!
And playing along in such mafia scheme is something for rough countries, not 'friends and allies' across the Channel as BoJo would say.
Both sould face serious consequences, IMHO.

The only issue I have with all that is whether the top brass of AZ in Europe making those decisions are actually Europeans living and working in Europe or foreigners working outside of Europe, how could a European not know the mindset set of the EU or their fellow Europeans on the continent? Does this indicate this whole thing is being masterminded by persons outside of the EU?


When you're in the board of a company your objective tends to be to maximise shareholder value. Governments (including your own) be damned.

I'm pretty sure that at some point during this they really thought they could comply with their overoptimistic forecasts, then reality set in and decisions were made, probably of the "how much can we get away with" type.

They surely miscalculated the amount of media and government scrutiny the whole situation would get, which considering we are in the middle of the worst pandemic in the media age was almost laughably short sighted.

The exception here would be - and correct me if I am wrong - but AZ is the only vaccine that is being provided during the height of the pandemic at cost, so even if they only ship to the UK or non-EU countries, the value of the product is not going up by that much.
As stated, I stand to be corrected, will have to go and see if I can find links showing the prices that the various OEM's are changing for their initial doses, I recall seeing same on some sites.
 
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par13del
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:55 pm

CranfordBoy wrote:
You really need to rein it in and get your facts straight. Those vaccine doses are bound for Belgium, not the UK:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-5650 ... type=share

So a EU paper is claiming AZ was storing doses for the UK in Italy, UK media is claiming the doses are not for the UK.....ok, facts resolved.
Thanks
 
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par13del
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:56 pm

Daily mail saying the same thing, but UK again, so.....will go looking for some EU content.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... lates.html
 
Olddog
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:58 pm

Read the politico article posted before, you will get how the EU see the facts and the whole situation.
Last edited by Olddog on Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Aesma
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:58 pm

astuteman wrote:
AirbusCheerlead wrote:
astuteman wrote:
Thank you for the measured response. It is appreciated.
The anger is from a deep frustration...

Hi Astuteman, first I hope you're doing well...
I finally joined you on the anger train. But my anger and frustration is directed to all the politicians and media in Europe (EU+), UK, and US.
......
I'll spare you more of my ranting, but probably could spend many more hours typing why the EU+, UK and US make me so angry. And the worst, aren't we supposed to be allies and share the same values?

Best regards and hopping you all stay safe,
Jonas


I'll apologise up front, Jonas
But I still can't get my head around all the fuss being made about the supplies of a vaccine, and the stopping of exports of a vaccine, that none of your EU politicians, none of your media, and none of your population want to take - that has been vilified to such an extent that one of your own - a poster on here has commented along the lines of "Good luck with getting any Germans to take it"...

Perhaps making up your collective minds might be a good idea.
Either get behind the AZ vaccine wholeheartedly and therefore give validity to the shortage of supply argument.
Or go along with public hype and ban the damned thing - in which case why the fuss if not for political capital?

One or the other. But please lets stop with the nonsense of complaining about supply on one hand, and on the other hand publicly vilifying what is an excellent vaccine for political reasons (the medical ones disappeared a long time ago)

Rgds


Astrazeneca has botched its trials and analysis. If there was no emergency need for effective vaccines, there is no doubt in my mind it wouldn't have been approved anywhere. And I'm not talking about potential side effects, I'm talking about efficacy, protocol, etc. To this day it isn't clear how long should pass between doses, and if it wouldn't be better to have first a half dose then a full dose, basic stuff.

There is no politics involved.

Now, we're in a pandemic, so there is an emergency need, and politicians have to weigh in. BoJo decided to approve AZ in December, he took a risk, it seems to be paying off. We'll see how it goes longer term.

BTW the French PM has taken his first dose of AZ, even though he shouldn't have since he's not old enough to get vaccinated. President Macron has had COVID last December so he can't justify taking it.
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lightsaber
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:05 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
astuteman wrote:
But the threat of bans, by the way, is the last way of doing that successfully.


Those 29 million doses hidden in a warehouse, that would have saved thousands of lives if distributed, just pushed even the most patient people across the line. And they where literally hidden there, that is no hyperbole, they told no one about it, did not make them part of any shipping schedule, pretended reduced deliveries from India hampered their ability to deliver on time, and didn´t even apply for an export license.


Incredibly as it sounds, it is in fact true!

Over the past few months, A-Z apparently has produced (at least) 28m additional 'black market' doses within the EU, without any notification of this whatsoever to either the EMA or any of the EU's national authorities, be it in The Netherlands (where they were reportedly produced) or Italy (where they were filled and subsequently prepared for shipping to the UK).

At the same time A-Z was revising it contractually promissed deliveries to the EU from 120m to just 30m in Q1 and with days to go, has not even delivered 2/3rds of that low amount!

After it became mandatory to inform the EU of any export of vaccines, A-Z suddenly had a huge problem at hands with its 'black market' doses, since it could no longer ship them out unnoticed, so at first they tested the water with a modest shipment to Australia and after it got refused, they decided to just store these 29m doses hoping the EU would soon lose interest as other manufaturers would step in and fill the delivery void they had created, while the UK played along and pretended a revised vaccination scheme was suddenly needed for the UK due to delivery issues from India?!

Sadly for A-Z, once the EU smells there's something fishy, they don't back down so easily, quite on the contrary.

Black market production, that is something for the mafia , not for a respected pharmaceutical company!
And playing along in such mafia scheme is something for rough countries, not 'friends and allies' across the Channel as BoJo would say.
Both sould face serious consequences, IMHO.

Please post a source for news of these extra black market doses.

The cluck bait:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/eu-vaccine-t ... 47272.html

But a lie, the truth:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/fa ... NewsSearch

But the 30 million doses in the Catalent finishing facility that La Stampa newspaper claimed were lost were actually well-documented and inventoried, a spokesman for Catalent told The Daily Beast.

They all had lot numbers and none were ever intended for Europe, instead most were prepared to be sent to third world countries as part of the Covax agreement. A small number of the vials were destined for the U.K., which would likely be blocked by a European Union ban on exports of vaccines made in Europe (and a precedent set by Italy earlier this month when the country banned AstraZeneca exports to Australia). But the doses, says the Catalent rep, were not “found” because, in fact, they had never been “lost.”


So no huge conspiracy theory, an artifact of regulated industries. If they had lot number, that means the regulators were informed at every stage of production.

What Europe does has implications.

But not any of the prior descriptions. They had lot numbers!!! Fully exposed! Fully trackable... sheesh.

Lightsaber
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flipdewaf
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European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:21 pm

JJJ wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
JJJ wrote:

In conflicting obligations.

As long as you meet the delivery programme you're free to sell to the world or put them on the morning gin and tonic of the C-suite. Your customer won't care as long as they get the doses in time.

If AZ is meeting someone other obligations while shortchanging the EU, they had an undisclosed conflicting obligation, and that's a breach of contract.

Again, AZ could have tried to split the shortchange. Start an open dialogue between countries and so on. But no, they made a choice of partners and tried to stall and misdirect the other.

But they did not. And that means lives, which a Pharma company should have held in a better regard.

It’s funny, I can’t find where it says that in the contract....


"Conflicting obligations"

If you can't read legalese I can't help you, I'm sorry.

Or you can’t show where it says that....

It has obligations in the contract toward the initial European doses but not to use the supply chain for the sole purpose of initial Europe doses.

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Last edited by flipdewaf on Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image
 
Olddog
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:22 pm

Seriously, the daily beast is a reputable source in your book?
 
max999
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:28 pm

There are a lot of complaints about how AZ is an evil company, but I don't see any solution proposed by the EU Commission or the European countries which would increase the supply of vaccines quickly. Increasing the supplies is the real answer for Europe, and not complaining and yelling.

Here are the reasons why none of EU's current proposals will increase supply quickly:

Export ban: Yes, the EU can ban the exports, but WTO rules do not allow the blocked goods to be repurposed for domestic use so those vaccines are not going into the arms of Europeans. This would be outright theft; stealing goods purchased by somebody else.

Force AZ to make vaccines for the EU instead of other countries: It's my understanding the EU countries don't have laws that can legally force a private company to prioritize production for domestic national security purposes. The US equivalent is the Defense Production Act, which the president threatened to use for the vaccines, but it was never acted upon.

Stop paying AZ: This will just slow down AZ vaccine production and make them less likely to comply with the EU

Sue AZ: Lawsuits normally take months and years to resolve. But the EU needs vaccines yesterday, not months and years later when the courts will hear a case. And if lawsuits were the answer, the EU Commission would have filed a lawsuit already, but it hasn't.
All the things I really like to do are either immoral, illegal, or fattening.
 
JJJ
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:34 pm

lightsaber wrote:

So no huge conspiracy theory, an artifact of regulated industries. If they had lot number, that means the regulators were informed at every stage of production.


They were so informed they had to physically trace them down from their manufacturing site in the Netherlands. And of course if a delivery of millions of doses was to be sent to Belgium someone forgot to tell the Belgians.

Image

But oh, quality control and covax.

Sure, just like when AZ found a few million doses the minute after the EU announced export controls.

It might even be true, but AZ will remain for a good while a untrustworthy partner.
 
JJJ
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:37 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
JJJ wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
It’s funny, I can’t find where it says that in the contract....


"Conflicting obligations"

If you can't read legalese I can't help you, I'm sorry.

Or you can’t show where it says that....

It has obligations in the contract toward the initial European doses but not to use the supply chain for the sole purpose of initial Europe doses.


Told you before, but will repeat again:

"No conflicting obligations". Up until the moment European deliveries are fulfilled in time, every dose going elsewhere from EU production sites (EU includes UK for the purposes of the contract, mind you) is breaching the agreement.

You got extra production? No problem, send it anywhere.
 
flipdewaf
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:40 pm

max999 wrote:

Sue AZ: Lawsuits normally take months and years to resolve. But the EU needs vaccines yesterday, not months and years later when the courts will hear a case. And if lawsuits were the answer, the EU Commission would have filed a lawsuit already, but it hasn't.


There’s a clause in the contract that says they cannot be sued for delayed delivery of vaccines...


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marcelh
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:40 pm

lightsaber wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

Those 29 million doses hidden in a warehouse, that would have saved thousands of lives if distributed, just pushed even the most patient people across the line. And they where literally hidden there, that is no hyperbole, they told no one about it, did not make them part of any shipping schedule, pretended reduced deliveries from India hampered their ability to deliver on time, and didn´t even apply for an export license.


Incredibly as it sounds, it is in fact true!

Over the past few months, A-Z apparently has produced (at least) 28m additional 'black market' doses within the EU, without any notification of this whatsoever to either the EMA or any of the EU's national authorities, be it in The Netherlands (where they were reportedly produced) or Italy (where they were filled and subsequently prepared for shipping to the UK).

At the same time A-Z was revising it contractually promissed deliveries to the EU from 120m to just 30m in Q1 and with days to go, has not even delivered 2/3rds of that low amount!

After it became mandatory to inform the EU of any export of vaccines, A-Z suddenly had a huge problem at hands with its 'black market' doses, since it could no longer ship them out unnoticed, so at first they tested the water with a modest shipment to Australia and after it got refused, they decided to just store these 29m doses hoping the EU would soon lose interest as other manufaturers would step in and fill the delivery void they had created, while the UK played along and pretended a revised vaccination scheme was suddenly needed for the UK due to delivery issues from India?!

Sadly for A-Z, once the EU smells there's something fishy, they don't back down so easily, quite on the contrary.

Black market production, that is something for the mafia , not for a respected pharmaceutical company!
And playing along in such mafia scheme is something for rough countries, not 'friends and allies' across the Channel as BoJo would say.
Both sould face serious consequences, IMHO.

Please post a source for news of these extra black market doses.

The cluck bait:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/eu-vaccine-t ... 47272.html

But a lie, the truth:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/fa ... NewsSearch

But the 30 million doses in the Catalent finishing facility that La Stampa newspaper claimed were lost were actually well-documented and inventoried, a spokesman for Catalent told The Daily Beast.

They all had lot numbers and none were ever intended for Europe, instead most were prepared to be sent to third world countries as part of the Covax agreement. A small number of the vials were destined for the U.K., which would likely be blocked by a European Union ban on exports of vaccines made in Europe (and a precedent set by Italy earlier this month when the country banned AstraZeneca exports to Australia). But the doses, says the Catalent rep, were not “found” because, in fact, they had never been “lost.”


So no huge conspiracy theory, an artifact of regulated industries. If they had lot number, that means the regulators were informed at every stage of production.

What Europe does has implications.

But not any of the prior descriptions. They had lot numbers!!! Fully exposed! Fully trackable... sheesh.

Lightsaber


And still no word from you about the difference between delivered by AZ up till now and what they should have delivered to the EU.

From an post earlier today by Sabenapilot:
EU Commissioner Dombrovskis is now explaining the EU's vaccine Export Authorisation Mechanism, live:
"AstraZeneca is very far away from their contractual commitments!
They have committed to 120m doses in the first Q of this year - now they are promising to be able to deliver just 30m doses, but they’re not even close to this figure as of today, with just a few days to go".


And "not even close" is: 17.1 million delivered with 7 days left...

And unfortunately your statements weren't always proven by facts, so I just gonna wait and see (and grab some popcorn)
 
flipdewaf
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:43 pm

JJJ wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
JJJ wrote:

"Conflicting obligations"

If you can't read legalese I can't help you, I'm sorry.

Or you can’t show where it says that....

It has obligations in the contract toward the initial European doses but not to use the supply chain for the sole purpose of initial Europe doses.


Told you before, but will repeat again:

"No conflicting obligations". Up until the moment European deliveries are fulfilled in time, every dose going elsewhere from EU production sites (EU includes UK for the purposes of the contract, mind you) is breaching the agreement.

You got extra production? No problem, send it anywhere.

Under which clause does it say that, I can’t seem to find it. Maybe I’m looking at the wrong contract. The contract is well laid out in terms of finding these, just give the location and I’ll look it up and confirm for you, maybe we’ll see if I’m looking at the right one. simples!


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sabenapilot
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:44 pm

Remarkable how A-Z is constantly having to clarify certain things, isn't it?
It's the only manufacturer which seems to have this issue with inaccurate statements about its contractual commitments, its production sites, its output and its export plans.
Either they are awfully unlucky to the point they must be the least understood company in the world... or they are just lying through their teeth while nobody is believing them any longer.
;-)

While they are at it: have their PR department offered any fancy explanation yet as to why their production plant in Leiden, The Netherlands has been kept away from EMA inspection and oversight too? Probably another 'inaccurate statement', related to the 'highly complex administrative process' of certification which others seem to manage in a just couple of weeks, isn't it?
Who's still buying all this nonsense of A-Z really?
 
max999
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:48 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
EU Commissioner Dombrovskis is now explaining the EU's vaccine Export Authorisation Mechanism, live:
AstraZeneca is very far away from their contractual commitments!
They have committed to 120m doses in the first Q of this year - now they are promising to be able to deliver just 30m doses, but they’re not even close to this figure as of today, with just a few days to go".

The EU's Export Authorisation Mechanism is not addressed at any specific country, but it’s clear that the EU must ensure vaccination of its own population too.
The EU is a global hotspot of the pandemic while also the largest exporter of vaccines at the same time. Since the introduction of the Export Registration System in February, we've seen some 10m doses exported to the UK alone, while ZERO doses had been exported in the other direction.


EU Commissioner Kyriakides added that
“respecting the advance purchase agreement with the EU remains paramount for all manufacturers”,
adding that the EU is “introducing the criteria of reciprocity and proportionality” where manufacturers are lacking it.
As such the export of Pfizer vaccines will likely be unaffected, but A-Z clearly has to answer questions concerning the 29M vaccines discovered in Italy, destined for the UK.


Export bans are a total show, it will not improve the vaccine supply situation for Europe. WTO rules prohibit blocked exports from being repurposed for domestic use. Doing that would be outright theft; stealing goods that somebody else purchased. So if those vaccines aren't going to the arms of Europeans, what is the purpose of the export ban?
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marcelh
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:50 pm

JJJ wrote:
lightsaber wrote:

So no huge conspiracy theory, an artifact of regulated industries. If they had lot number, that means the regulators were informed at every stage of production.


They were so informed they had to physically trace them down from their manufacturing site in the Netherlands. And of course if a delivery of millions of doses was to be sent to Belgium someone forgot to tell the Belgians.

Image

But oh, quality control and covax.

Sure, just like when AZ found a few million doses the minute after the EU announced export controls.

It might even be true, but AZ will remain for a good while a untrustworthy partner.


Those 10 million for the EU caNnot be part of this batch of 29 million, because they have been produced in the Netherlands, a plant which hasn't been apporved by the EMA.

https://lexpansion.lexpress.fr/actualite-economique/astrazeneca-le-stock-cache-des-30-millions-de-vaccins-en-italie_2147386.html

This link was posted earlier today in this thread by Aesma and it states that the EMA has never received the documents needed to certify this plant to deliver vaccine for the EU market. So, when those 13 million doses "for Europe" can't be used by the EU, who will receive those doses???
 
sabenapilot
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:07 pm

marcelh wrote:
Those 10 million for the EU cannot be part of this batch of 29 million, because they have been produced in the Netherlands, a plant which hasn't been approved by the EMA.


Indeed, even in their clarification, A-Z is deliberately spreading confusion by making it sound -although not implicitly saying- that part of this batch is for the EU.
It can't, since it wasn't produced on an approved production line, so AGAIN, what is A-Z trying to hide here exactly?
And more so, what do they take the EU for? A bunch of complete fools?
Are they genuinely still believing they will get away with this?
Come on...
 
tommy1808
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:09 pm

max999 wrote:
There are a lot of complaints about how AZ is an evil company, but I don't see any solution proposed by the EU Commission or the European countries which would increase the supply of vaccines quickly. Increasing the supplies is the real answer for Europe, and not complaining and yelling.


Which is what the EU is doing, just not with AZ, because they are not even trying. Remeber, they don't even apply to get a site authorized that has to produce initial EU doses...

So, give them more money and resources to get nothing in return a 2nd time is your proposed solution? Riiiight...

They rather pump money and resources into companies that do deliver. Biontech set up a 750 million dose/year facility in 3 months, and started setting up about two weeks after getting an expanded order, AZ couldn't even be bothered to apply for authorisation 6.5 month after signing a contract....

JJJ wrote:
lightsaber wrote:

So no huge conspiracy theory, an artifact of regulated industries. If they had lot number, that means the regulators were informed at every stage of production.


They were so informed they had to physically trace them down from their manufacturing site in the Netherlands. And of course if a delivery of millions of doses was to be sent to Belgium someone forgot to tell the Belgians.

Image

But oh, quality control and covax.
.


So, they tried to take millions of doses from India fo the UK, where production is mostly for Covax, but also ship doses to Covax from the EU.... hence, on paper the doses in Italy are for Covax and not the UK. Clever scheme to get ahead in the PR game. Could have almost fooled someone....

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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Aesma
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:25 pm

max999 wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
EU Commissioner Dombrovskis is now explaining the EU's vaccine Export Authorisation Mechanism, live:
AstraZeneca is very far away from their contractual commitments!
They have committed to 120m doses in the first Q of this year - now they are promising to be able to deliver just 30m doses, but they’re not even close to this figure as of today, with just a few days to go".

The EU's Export Authorisation Mechanism is not addressed at any specific country, but it’s clear that the EU must ensure vaccination of its own population too.
The EU is a global hotspot of the pandemic while also the largest exporter of vaccines at the same time. Since the introduction of the Export Registration System in February, we've seen some 10m doses exported to the UK alone, while ZERO doses had been exported in the other direction.


EU Commissioner Kyriakides added that
“respecting the advance purchase agreement with the EU remains paramount for all manufacturers”,
adding that the EU is “introducing the criteria of reciprocity and proportionality” where manufacturers are lacking it.
As such the export of Pfizer vaccines will likely be unaffected, but A-Z clearly has to answer questions concerning the 29M vaccines discovered in Italy, destined for the UK.


Export bans are a total show, it will not improve the vaccine supply situation for Europe. WTO rules prohibit blocked exports from being repurposed for domestic use. Doing that would be outright theft; stealing goods that somebody else purchased. So if those vaccines aren't going to the arms of Europeans, what is the purpose of the export ban?


Masks were blocked last year, did a WTO complaint happen ?

2 (or more) clients have bought the same doses because AZ sold their production several times over. When the EU takes possession of these doses, don't worry, they'll be used. We'll see who complains at the WTO.

Is the WTO even working these days ? I thought Trump had gutted it ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Aesma
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:29 pm

par13del wrote:
The only issue I have with all that is whether the top brass of AZ in Europe making those decisions are actually Europeans living and working in Europe or foreigners working outside of Europe, how could a European not know the mindset set of the EU or their fellow Europeans on the continent? Does this indicate this whole thing is being masterminded by persons outside of the EU?


Interestingly enough AZ's CEO is French. I was wondering why he wasn't being called to the Elysée Palace or something like that, it turns out the guy is hiding far away from the pandemic in Australia ! I bet he doesn't dare coming back now.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
JJJ
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:30 pm

marcelh wrote:
JJJ wrote:
lightsaber wrote:

So no huge conspiracy theory, an artifact of regulated industries. If they had lot number, that means the regulators were informed at every stage of production.


They were so informed they had to physically trace them down from their manufacturing site in the Netherlands. And of course if a delivery of millions of doses was to be sent to Belgium someone forgot to tell the Belgians.

Image

But oh, quality control and covax.

Sure, just like when AZ found a few million doses the minute after the EU announced export controls.

It might even be true, but AZ will remain for a good while a untrustworthy partner.


Those 10 million for the EU caNnot be part of this batch of 29 million, because they have been produced in the Netherlands, a plant which hasn't been apporved by the EMA.


Because AZ keeps not sending the necessary paperwork.

Clearly they're in a rush and doing their best to fulfill their contractual obligations.
 
JJJ
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:32 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
JJJ wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
Or you can’t show where it says that....

It has obligations in the contract toward the initial European doses but not to use the supply chain for the sole purpose of initial Europe doses.


Told you before, but will repeat again:

"No conflicting obligations". Up until the moment European deliveries are fulfilled in time, every dose going elsewhere from EU production sites (EU includes UK for the purposes of the contract, mind you) is breaching the agreement.

You got extra production? No problem, send it anywhere.

Under which clause does it say that, I can’t seem to find it. Maybe I’m looking at the wrong contract. The contract is well laid out in terms of finding these, just give the location and I’ll look it up and confirm for you, maybe we’ll see if I’m looking at the right one. simples!


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Do you know what a competing obligation is? It means any other contractual commitment that prevents from fulfilling the one at hand.

If the UK contract gets doses away from EU-designated sites is a competing obligation.

Simple as that.
 
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par13del
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:34 pm

Olddog wrote:
Seriously, the daily beast is a reputable source in your book?

Seriously, the BBC rag and the Daily Beast are the ones stating that La Stampa reported the doses but had not confirmed that they were destined for the UK as prior posters claimed.
If you have some other link where La Stampa or some reputable EU outlet has stated and confirmed that the doses were being hidden for supply to the UK please share.
 
flipdewaf
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European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:34 pm

JJJ wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
JJJ wrote:

Told you before, but will repeat again:

"No conflicting obligations". Up until the moment European deliveries are fulfilled in time, every dose going elsewhere from EU production sites (EU includes UK for the purposes of the contract, mind you) is breaching the agreement.

You got extra production? No problem, send it anywhere.

Under which clause does it say that, I can’t seem to find it. Maybe I’m looking at the wrong contract. The contract is well laid out in terms of finding these, just give the location and I’ll look it up and confirm for you, maybe we’ll see if I’m looking at the right one. simples!


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Do you know what a competing obligation is? It means any other contractual commitment that prevents from fulfilling the one at hand.

If the UK contract gets doses away from EU-designated sites is a competing obligation.

Simple as that.

So which obligation are they not fulfilling? Where in the contract does it say the initial EU doses have sole/priority use of he production facilities? Bearing in mind that 13.1(e) only places obligations on the doses themselves and not the facilities to produce this initial European doses.

Fred


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art
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:37 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
So, they tried to take millions of doses from India fo the UK, where production is mostly for Covax, but also ship doses to Covax from the EU.... hence, on paper the doses in Italy are for Covax and not the UK. Clever scheme to get ahead in the PR game. Could have almost fooled someone....

Best regards
Thomas


You've lost me.
 
tommy1808
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:46 pm

art wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
So, they tried to take millions of doses from India fo the UK, where production is mostly for Covax, but also ship doses to Covax from the EU.... hence, on paper the doses in Italy are for Covax and not the UK. Clever scheme to get ahead in the PR game. Could have almost fooled someone....

Best regards
Thomas


You've lost me.


Ship 10 million doses from India, where production for India and Covax is supposed to happen, to the UK

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-56438629

Ship 10 million doses from the EU to Covax recipients.

Covax doesn't see any additional dose, the UK has 10 million more. On paper, and for EU vaccine export controls, everything is honkydory.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
max999
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:46 pm

Aesma wrote:
max999 wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
EU Commissioner Dombrovskis is now explaining the EU's vaccine Export Authorisation Mechanism, live:
AstraZeneca is very far away from their contractual commitments!
They have committed to 120m doses in the first Q of this year - now they are promising to be able to deliver just 30m doses, but they’re not even close to this figure as of today, with just a few days to go".

The EU's Export Authorisation Mechanism is not addressed at any specific country, but it’s clear that the EU must ensure vaccination of its own population too.
The EU is a global hotspot of the pandemic while also the largest exporter of vaccines at the same time. Since the introduction of the Export Registration System in February, we've seen some 10m doses exported to the UK alone, while ZERO doses had been exported in the other direction.


EU Commissioner Kyriakides added that
“respecting the advance purchase agreement with the EU remains paramount for all manufacturers”,
adding that the EU is “introducing the criteria of reciprocity and proportionality” where manufacturers are lacking it.
As such the export of Pfizer vaccines will likely be unaffected, but A-Z clearly has to answer questions concerning the 29M vaccines discovered in Italy, destined for the UK.


Export bans are a total show, it will not improve the vaccine supply situation for Europe. WTO rules prohibit blocked exports from being repurposed for domestic use. Doing that would be outright theft; stealing goods that somebody else purchased. So if those vaccines aren't going to the arms of Europeans, what is the purpose of the export ban?


Masks were blocked last year, did a WTO complaint happen ?

2 (or more) clients have bought the same doses because AZ sold their production several times over. When the EU takes possession of these doses, don't worry, they'll be used. We'll see who complains at the WTO.

Is the WTO even working these days ? I thought Trump had gutted it ?


You're guessing that the EU will take possession of the blocked exports. The EU probably will not do it because they will be taking a risk of violating WTO rules. Also, the EU is risking reputational damage because other countries will see the EU as a thief and a thug for stealing their purchased vaccines.

Italy blocked 250,000 vaccines from being exported to Australia. What's happening with those vaccines right now? It they're not repossessed and sitting in some warehouse, then the export ban has not helped any ordinary Italians.
Last edited by max999 on Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:54 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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par13del
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:46 pm

Additional links where folks are saying there is no confirmation that the 29 million were for the UK
https://leaderpost.com/pmn/business-pmn ... h-official
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/24/worl ... italy.html
...and the La Stampa link where they make the claim...hopefully you do not need the google translate like I did....
https://www.lastampa.it/topnews/primo-p ... 1.40064341
 
tommy1808
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:48 pm

JJJ wrote:
marcelh wrote:
JJJ wrote:

They were so informed they had to physically trace them down from their manufacturing site in the Netherlands. And of course if a delivery of millions of doses was to be sent to Belgium someone forgot to tell the Belgians.

Image

But oh, quality control and covax.

Sure, just like when AZ found a few million doses the minute after the EU announced export controls.

It might even be true, but AZ will remain for a good while a untrustworthy partner.


Those 10 million for the EU caNnot be part of this batch of 29 million, because they have been produced in the Netherlands, a plant which hasn't been apporved by the EMA.


Because AZ keeps not sending the necessary paperwork.
.


According to the financial times link I posted earlier they didn't even apply, despite the EMA making clear they would fast track it.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
JJJ
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:49 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
JJJ wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
Under which clause does it say that, I can’t seem to find it. Maybe I’m looking at the wrong contract. The contract is well laid out in terms of finding these, just give the location and I’ll look it up and confirm for you, maybe we’ll see if I’m looking at the right one. simples!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Do you know what a competing obligation is? It means any other contractual commitment that prevents from fulfilling the one at hand.

If the UK contract gets doses away from EU-designated sites is a competing obligation.

Simple as that.

So which obligation are they not fulfilling? Where in the contract does it say the initial EU doses have sole/priority use of he production facilities? Bearing in mind that 13.1(e) only places obligations on the doses themselves and not the facilities to produce this initial European doses.


They aren't delivering the required doses in the required time frame. They are using sites in the EU to supply other markets, hence undisclosed competing obligation.
 
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par13del
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:51 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Ship 10 million doses from India, where production for India and Covax is supposed to happen, to the UK

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-56438629

Ship 10 million doses from the EU to Covax recipients.

Covax doesn't see any additional dose, the UK has 10 million more. On paper, and for EU vaccine export controls, everything is honkydory.

Best regards
Thomas

Help me with the India part, the doses that they make for the UK, do they have to pass through the EU to get to the UK?
If not and they have direct shipment, is the Indian facilities also tied to the EU production line and they fall under the same no competing obligation?

I know the Indian government is looking at with holding shipments due to an increase in infections, but is that tied to the same contractual obligations with the EU?
 
tommy1808
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:51 pm

max999 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
max999 wrote:

Export bans are a total show, it will not improve the vaccine supply situation for Europe. WTO rules prohibit blocked exports from being repurposed for domestic use. Doing that would be outright theft; stealing goods that somebody else purchased. So if those vaccines aren't going to the arms of Europeans, what is the purpose of the export ban?


Masks were blocked last year, did a WTO complaint happen ?

2 (or more) clients have bought the same doses because AZ sold their production several times over. When the EU takes possession of these doses, don't worry, they'll be used. We'll see who complains at the WTO.

Is the WTO even working these days ? I thought Trump had gutted it ?


You're guessing that the EU will take possession of the blocked exports. The EU probably will not do it because they will be taking a risk of violating WTO rules.


It wouldn't be a violation of WTO rules, the EU has ordered those doses. AZ Deciding to screw the EU and ship them to someone else is a pure commercial issue and the WTO has no leg in the game.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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par13del
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:56 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
marcelh wrote:

Those 10 million for the EU caNnot be part of this batch of 29 million, because they have been produced in the Netherlands, a plant which hasn't been apporved by the EMA.


Because AZ keeps not sending the necessary paperwork.
.


According to the financial times link I posted earlier they didn't even apply, despite the EMA making clear they would fast track it.

Best regards
Thomas

Another question, if the output from that factory is destined for non-EU customers, does it still have to be cleared by the EMA? I am assuming that products destined for the third world do not have to meet the higher standards of the EU.
 
tommy1808
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:59 pm

par13del wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
JJJ wrote:

Because AZ keeps not sending the necessary paperwork.
.


According to the financial times link I posted earlier they didn't even apply, despite the EMA making clear they would fast track it.

Best regards
Thomas

Another question, if the output from that factory is destined for non-EU customers, does it still have to be cleared by the EMA? I am assuming that products destined for the third world do not have to meet the higher standards of the EU.


I could give you chapter and verse on industrial computer exports into third countries, but pharmaceutical exports rules are beyond me.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Olddog
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed Mar 24, 2021 5:01 pm

The wto threat is laughable as the uk and US have exported zero vaccines.
 
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par13del
Posts: 10641
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed Mar 24, 2021 5:01 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
par13del wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Ship 10 million doses from India, where production for India and Covax is supposed to happen, to the UK

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-56438629

Ship 10 million doses from the EU to Covax recipients.

Covax doesn't see any additional dose, the UK has 10 million more. On paper, and for EU vaccine export controls, everything is honkydory.

Best regards
Thomas

Help me with the India part, the doses that they make for the UK, do they have to pass through the EU to get to the UK?
If not and they have direct shipment, is the Indian facilities also tied to the EU production line and they fall under the same no competing obligation?

I know the Indian government is looking at with holding shipments due to an increase in infections, but is that tied to the same contractual obligations with the EU?


This is just a swap around done by AZ to make it look like shipping to Covax countries, while in the end Covax gets nothing, and the UK has more doses.
Classical curcumvention technique.

This is just to make the EU look bad if they start enforcing the contract via export controls, I am sure the "EU stealing vaccine form poor countries" spin is ready to go, while in fact the vaccine is diverted to the UK with EU doses making up the balance. If there had not been problems in India, and a 5 million dose shortfall hit the media, we wouldn't even know about it.

Best regards
Thomas

Not trying to be dense, but if the shipment from the EU for COVAX is done via a EU port, how is that going to end up in the UK? Is COVAX going to turn around and ship that to the UK? If COVAX is running under the authority of the WHO / UN etc. how can their shipments be diverted?
 
max999
Posts: 1266
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:05 am

Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed Mar 24, 2021 5:05 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
max999 wrote:
Aesma wrote:

Masks were blocked last year, did a WTO complaint happen ?

2 (or more) clients have bought the same doses because AZ sold their production several times over. When the EU takes possession of these doses, don't worry, they'll be used. We'll see who complains at the WTO.

Is the WTO even working these days ? I thought Trump had gutted it ?


You're guessing that the EU will take possession of the blocked exports. The EU probably will not do it because they will be taking a risk of violating WTO rules.


It wouldn't be a violation of WTO rules, the EU has ordered those doses. AZ Deciding to screw the EU and ship them to someone else is a pure commercial issue and the WTO has no leg in the game.

Best regards
Thomas


I understand that you think AZ is an evil company because they promised more than they could deliver. And when push came to shove, they left the EU behind and prioritized other customers instead.

It's my understanding that making vaccines is a high risk business. It's not easy to make hundreds of millions of doses safe vaccines. There's a high chance of failure, and I think we all agree that AZ has failed.

But I disagree with the EU approach's towards AZ because their approach will not substantial increase the amount of vaccines quickly, which is the real answer for Europe.

Even if AZ double booked the orders, the EU cannot force AZ to make vaccines for the EU instead of other countries. It's my understanding the EU countries don't have laws that can legally force a private company to prioritize production for domestic national security purposes. The US equivalent is the Defense Production Act, which the president threatened to use for the vaccines, but it was never acted upon.

For the export bans, I don't believe EU will take possession of the blocked vaccines because there will be legal and reputation risks. I don't think the EU wants to be seen by other countries as a thief and a thug for stealing their purchased vaccines.

To summarize EU's approach towards AZ, it's like squeezing blood from a stone. It won't get vaccines into the arms of Europeans any faster.

In my humble opinion this is what the EU should do instead of complaining about AZ. Go to the vaccine manufacturers in Europe who are now making the AZ vaccine. Offer them unlimited money to switch their production to Pfizer, Moderna, or Johnson & Johnson. This basically pushes AZ out of the picture.
Last edited by max999 on Wed Mar 24, 2021 5:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
All the things I really like to do are either immoral, illegal, or fattening.
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 4050
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed Mar 24, 2021 5:15 pm

JJJ wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
JJJ wrote:

Do you know what a competing obligation is? It means any other contractual commitment that prevents from fulfilling the one at hand.

If the UK contract gets doses away from EU-designated sites is a competing obligation.

Simple as that.

So which obligation are they not fulfilling? Where in the contract does it say the initial EU doses have sole/priority use of he production facilities? Bearing in mind that 13.1(e) only places obligations on the doses themselves and not the facilities to produce this initial European doses.


They aren't delivering the required doses in the required time frame.

from section 6.2
...To the extent AstraZeneca’s performance under this
Agreement is impeded by any such competing agreements, AstraZeneca shall not be
deemed in breach of this Agreement as a result of any such delay due to the
aforementioned competing agreement(s).
6.3....
so.. not in breach of agreement.
JJJ wrote:
They are using sites in the EU to supply other markets,

I cant see in the contract where that would constitute a breach of contract.
JJJ wrote:
hence undisclosed competing obligation.

The only part of the contract that requires a disclosure of competing agreements is regarding those entered in to by the commission or by the member states and those referring to the "initial Europe doses" the other doses are not "initial Europe doses" as they are "initial *Enter country here* Doses"

Like I say, maybe I'm looking at the wrong contract.

Fred
Last edited by flipdewaf on Wed Mar 24, 2021 5:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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marcelh
Posts: 1321
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed Mar 24, 2021 5:16 pm

par13del wrote:
Additional links where folks are saying there is no confirmation that the 29 million were for the UK
https://leaderpost.com/pmn/business-pmn ... h-official
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/24/worl ... italy.html
...and the La Stampa link where they make the claim...hopefully you do not need the google translate like I did....
https://www.lastampa.it/topnews/primo-p ... 1.40064341

So what? In the end those aren’t either (partly) for the EU because they have been produced in a non-certified plant. And you are also ignoring the fact that AZ should deliver 90 (or even 120) million doses to the EU by next week and has only delivered 17 million by now.
 
JJJ
Posts: 3966
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed Mar 24, 2021 5:17 pm

max999 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
max999 wrote:

You're guessing that the EU will take possession of the blocked exports. The EU probably will not do it because they will be taking a risk of violating WTO rules.


It wouldn't be a violation of WTO rules, the EU has ordered those doses. AZ Deciding to screw the EU and ship them to someone else is a pure commercial issue and the WTO has no leg in the game.

Best regards
Thomas


I understand that you think AZ is an evil company because they promised more than they could deliver. And when push came to shove, they left the EU behind and prioritized other customers instead.

It's my understanding that making vaccines is a high risk business. It's not easy to make hundreds of millions of doses safe vaccines. There's a high chance of failure, and I think we all agree that AZ has failed.


Which is why something like half of the companies that EU signed an advanced purchasing order with don't have a working vaccine yet. Risk management in this case means to spread the investment among different players, which the EU did.

But I disagree with the EU approach's towards AZ because their approach will not substantial increase the amount of vaccines quickly, which is the real answer for Europe.

Even if AZ double booked the orders, the EU cannot force AZ to make vaccines for the EU instead of other countries. It's my understanding the EU countries don't have laws that can legally force a private company to prioritize production for domestic national security purposes. The US equivalent is the Defense Production Act, which the president threatened to use for the vaccines, but it was never acted upon.

For the export bans, I don't believe EU will take possession of the blocked vaccines because there will be legal and reputation risks. I don't think the EU wants to be seen by other countries as a thief and a thug for stealing their purchased vaccines.

To summarize EU's approach towards AZ, it's like squeezing blood from a stone. It won't get vaccines into the arms of Europeans any faster.


If you don't call out deceptive business practices you aren't doing your job as a regulator or as a customer.

As a EU national, my tax euros paid for those vaccines and I'd call out on my government if they allow themselves to be cheated out of hundreds of millions.
 
User avatar
Dano1977
Posts: 745
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:49 pm

Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed Mar 24, 2021 5:18 pm

par13del wrote:
Additional links where folks are saying there is no confirmation that the 29 million were for the UK
https://leaderpost.com/pmn/business-pmn ... h-official
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/24/worl ... italy.html
...and the La Stampa link where they make the claim...hopefully you do not need the google translate like I did....
https://www.lastampa.it/topnews/primo-p ... 1.40064341



As per the UK contract with AZ for 100million doses.

80m are being produced in the UK, 10m in India and only 10m in Europe.

Somebody is telling porky pies...
The average EU official - he has the organising ability of the Italians, the flexibility of the Germans and the modesty of the French. And that's topped up by the imagination of the Belgians, the generosity of the Dutch.

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