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JJJ
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Sun Mar 28, 2021 7:57 am

lightsaber wrote:

A regulated industry maintains a database always accessible to the regulator. That is part of regulating any industry. r


Again, that's not true.

Pharma batch numbers are strictly internal until the moment there is a final sale.

You are required to keep them for traceability purposes (and in your own internal "passport" you will have all batch numbers of all components) but the customer/regulator never gets to see it until there's an issued invoice.
 
art
Posts: 4252
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:46 am

Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Sun Mar 28, 2021 8:37 am

JJJ wrote:
Pharma batch numbers are strictly internal until the moment there is a final sale.

You are required to keep them for traceability purposes (and in your own internal "passport" you will have all batch numbers of all components) but the customer/regulator never gets to see it until there's an issued invoice.


So... no audit trail back to origin (factory that made the vaccine) available until an invoice is raised?

I don't understand why AZ don't disclose where the vaccine was produced unless they've broken rules/done something wrong. A statement of clarity, such as:

'The vaccine was made at [name of factory]. It is destined for [name of country]'

would be useful, would it not?
 
sabenapilot
Topic Author
Posts: 3713
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Sun Mar 28, 2021 8:40 am

Reality is that A-Z signed up to deliver the EU with 120m doses of its vaccine in Q1;
as soon as the EMA certified the vaccine for use in the EEA and with less than a week (!) before deliveries had to start, they suddenly announced out of the blue they could only deliver 30m doses!
At present - with less than 3 days to go till the end of Q1 - they have delivered just 18m doses and are completely unable to deliver at a constant rate, which forces EU countries to hold back a vaccine for every shot administered as there's no guarantee whatsoever the required second dose will arrive on time later, which means almost half the delivered doses need to be kept in store for weeks.

And then suddenly once the EU discovers about 29m hidden vaccines in an Italian warehouse, they claim some 16m doses of those were destined for the EU???
Without ever telling the EU until then??? As a matter of surprise then probably? ROTFL

"Hey EU, you're problems are over! We will beat our promisses as we're able to deliver you 10% more than what we said we only could (18m + 16m = 34m doses in Q1) AND you can forget all about keeping half the current doses delivered in stock for weeks in order to guarantee all second shots: we actually did that all of that for you in our warehouse in Italy", something like that?

Strange A-Z didn't do that sort of a communication show, don't you think?
They could have ended both their bad PR as well as solved the issue of their unstable output and the required back log in one go...
Either they are completely incompetent not only in their manufacturing of vaccines but also in their communication management, or the above is not what they had in mind with those doses at all, and is something they are only now making up, once caught...
Which one is more likely, you think? ;)
 
AeroVega
Posts: 374
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Sun Mar 28, 2021 10:07 am

sabenapilot wrote:
Considering a plant in The Netherlands, EU was deliberately NOT presented for certification to the EMA so its entire production could be diverted to the UK,

That is an interesting theory, but weakened a bit by fact that vaccines from the Halix plant are not approved yet for use in the UK.

“We are well on track in order to get the approval by EMA (European Medicines Agency) in the course of March, beginning of April, and this is exactly according to our plan,” said Ruud Dobber, executive vice president of the BioPharmaceuticals business on a briefing.
(now approved, red)
Executives would not be drawn on when Britain’s drug watchdog may give the nod to accept Halix-produced shots.

Source: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKBN2BE1RY
 
Olddog
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Sun Mar 28, 2021 10:12 am

I wonder when you will stop regurgitating AZ PR as gospel ?
 
art
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Sun Mar 28, 2021 10:28 am

From the Reuters article:

Without regulatory approval, vaccines produced at Halix cannot be used in either the EU or Britain.


It looks like that was an observation by the reporter (not AZ). If it cannot be used in EU or UK because it did not have regulatory approval, has anyone else given regulatory approval so it can be used there? Or will someone else give it a waiver?
 
sabenapilot
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Sun Mar 28, 2021 10:38 am

AeroVega wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
Considering a plant in The Netherlands, EU was deliberately NOT presented for certification to the EMA so its entire production could be diverted to the UK,

That is an interesting theory, but weakened a bit by fact that vaccines from the Halix plant are not approved yet for use in the UK.

“We are well on track in order to get the approval by EMA (European Medicines Agency) in the course of March, beginning of April, and this is exactly according to our plan,” said Ruud Dobber, executive vice president of the BioPharmaceuticals business on a briefing.
(now approved, red)
Executives would not be drawn on when Britain’s drug watchdog may give the nod to accept Halix-produced shots.

Source: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKBN2BE1RY


The 'trick' has been explained by Tommy1808 before.

The UK does not physically need to source from that particular plant in The Netherlands to secure extra doses of the vaccine if A-Z is willing to play along in the deceit; they can have A-Z swap vaccines around between different production sites to mask the final destination and the total delivery tally.
In fact, it's even better, as it obscures from view the fact A-Z was intending on draining the EU from tens of millions of doses to satisfy their contract with UK, without actually having to send them straight over! Production from a deliberately uncertified A-Z plant in the EU goes to India for instance, while Indian produced vaccines come directly to the UK. ;)
Nice smoke screen... but it got blown away in the end, nevertheless.
Wasn't there a sudden 'issue' with Indian deliveries to the UK, right when the export from the Italian warehouse was blocked?
How coincidential, isn't it? ;;)
 
Ertro
Posts: 197
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Sun Mar 28, 2021 10:45 am

art wrote:
If it cannot be used in EU or UK because it did not have regulatory approval, has anyone else given regulatory approval so it can be used there? Or will someone else give it a waiver?


I have absolutely zero idea about where these Italy vaccines might have been going to. I cannot even speculate.

However while I was shaving in the morning I wondered about steroids for bodybuilders how they sell in the black market for 100 times more money than in official pharmacies and even more if they look like they are real pharmaceutical quality with all the official looking stamps. But obviously this thought has nothing to do with these vaccines as probably there is not a market among billionaires and millionaires to bypass normal queues to get a covid shot immediately or having parties where everyone participating has been vaccinated by the very generous host billionaire some weeks in advance for the safety of the host.
 
marcelh
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Sun Mar 28, 2021 11:35 am

AeroVega wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
Considering a plant in The Netherlands, EU was deliberately NOT presented for certification to the EMA so its entire production could be diverted to the UK,

That is an interesting theory, but weakened a bit by fact that vaccines from the Halix plant are not approved yet for use in the UK.

“We are well on track in order to get the approval by EMA (European Medicines Agency) in the course of March, beginning of April, and this is exactly according to our plan,” said Ruud Dobber, executive vice president of the BioPharmaceuticals business on a briefing.
(now approved, red)
Executives would not be drawn on when Britain’s drug watchdog may give the nod to accept Halix-produced shots.

Source: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKBN2BE1RY

It isn’t a theory, but already earlier explained in this thread how this plant became part of the UK production chain. Because of all the “noise” this plant has created the last month, I can imagine AZ has pushed back the approval by the UK authorities and sent them more vaccines produced in other places which are already approved by the UK.

https://nos.nl/artikel/2370277-farmaceut-astrazeneca-geeft-toe-britten-investeerden-in-nederlandse-productie.html in Dutch. (dated February 24)

”Last year the British government invested a lot of money to be able to produce covid-19 vaccines in the Netherlands. That has been stated by AstraZeneca CEO Pascal Soriot in the European Parliament. AstraZeneca eventually had to take over the contracts earlier signed.”

and

“The company is defined by AstraZeneca as part of the British production chain. A part of the vaccines produced there therefore go to Great Britain.”

and

”Initially, Halix from Leiden would even be used to produce for the United Kingdon exclusively”
 
JJJ
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Sun Mar 28, 2021 12:33 pm

art wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Pharma batch numbers are strictly internal until the moment there is a final sale.

You are required to keep them for traceability purposes (and in your own internal "passport" you will have all batch numbers of all components) but the customer/regulator never gets to see it until there's an issued invoice.


So... no audit trail back to origin (factory that made the vaccine) available until an invoice is raised?


This is not the Soviet Union with central planning and Commissars making sure the party lines are followed.

National authorities and EMA certify each production plant and part of the certification process is that certain traceability process has to be followed.

That doesn't mean information is constantly relayed to the authorities, rather that if there is any kind of issue the mfg needs to be ready to trace down a certain batch down to it's individual components and to every customer and user.

But that's all post mortem. Until the moment the drug leaves the factory it's all internal information.
 
AeroVega
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Sun Mar 28, 2021 12:37 pm

marcelh wrote:
AeroVega wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
Considering a plant in The Netherlands, EU was deliberately NOT presented for certification to the EMA so its entire production could be diverted to the UK,

That is an interesting theory, but weakened a bit by fact that vaccines from the Halix plant are not approved yet for use in the UK.

“We are well on track in order to get the approval by EMA (European Medicines Agency) in the course of March, beginning of April, and this is exactly according to our plan,” said Ruud Dobber, executive vice president of the BioPharmaceuticals business on a briefing.
(now approved, red)
Executives would not be drawn on when Britain’s drug watchdog may give the nod to accept Halix-produced shots.

Source: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKBN2BE1RY

It isn’t a theory, but already earlier explained in this thread how this plant became part of the UK production chain. Because of all the “noise” this plant has created the last month, I can imagine AZ has pushed back the approval by the UK authorities and sent them more vaccines produced in other places which are already approved by the UK.

https://nos.nl/artikel/2370277-farmaceut-astrazeneca-geeft-toe-britten-investeerden-in-nederlandse-productie.html in Dutch. (dated February 24)

”Last year the British government invested a lot of money to be able to produce covid-19 vaccines in the Netherlands. That has been stated by AstraZeneca CEO Pascal Soriot in the European Parliament. AstraZeneca eventually had to take over the contracts earlier signed.”

and

“The company is defined by AstraZeneca as part of the British production chain. A part of the vaccines produced there therefore go to Great Britain.”

and

”Initially, Halix from Leiden would even be used to produce for the United Kingdon exclusively”


If the UK government has invested a lot of money in the Dutch plant then its perfectly logical that they get vaccines from that plant. There is nothing wrong with that.
 
tommy1808
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Sun Mar 28, 2021 12:40 pm

AeroVega wrote:
marcelh wrote:
AeroVega wrote:
That is an interesting theory, but weakened a bit by fact that vaccines from the Halix plant are not approved yet for use in the UK.

(now approved, red)
Source: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKBN2BE1RY

It isn’t a theory, but already earlier explained in this thread how this plant became part of the UK production chain. Because of all the “noise” this plant has created the last month, I can imagine AZ has pushed back the approval by the UK authorities and sent them more vaccines produced in other places which are already approved by the UK.

https://nos.nl/artikel/2370277-farmaceut-astrazeneca-geeft-toe-britten-investeerden-in-nederlandse-productie.html in Dutch. (dated February 24)

”Last year the British government invested a lot of money to be able to produce covid-19 vaccines in the Netherlands. That has been stated by AstraZeneca CEO Pascal Soriot in the European Parliament. AstraZeneca eventually had to take over the contracts earlier signed.”

and

“The company is defined by AstraZeneca as part of the British production chain. A part of the vaccines produced there therefore go to Great Britain.”

and

”Initially, Halix from Leiden would even be used to produce for the United Kingdon exclusively”


If the UK government has invested a lot of money in the Dutch plant then its perfectly logical that they get vaccines from that plant. There is nothing wrong with that.


The EU paid AZ hundreds of millions to produce vaccine in that plant exclusively for them, so it is perfectly logical to expect all the vaccine from that plant. There is nothing wrong with that.

Best regards
Thomas
 
JJJ
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Sun Mar 28, 2021 1:27 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
AeroVega wrote:
marcelh wrote:
It isn’t a theory, but already earlier explained in this thread how this plant became part of the UK production chain. Because of all the “noise” this plant has created the last month, I can imagine AZ has pushed back the approval by the UK authorities and sent them more vaccines produced in other places which are already approved by the UK.

https://nos.nl/artikel/2370277-farmaceut-astrazeneca-geeft-toe-britten-investeerden-in-nederlandse-productie.html in Dutch. (dated February 24)

”Last year the British government invested a lot of money to be able to produce covid-19 vaccines in the Netherlands. That has been stated by AstraZeneca CEO Pascal Soriot in the European Parliament. AstraZeneca eventually had to take over the contracts earlier signed.”

and

“The company is defined by AstraZeneca as part of the British production chain. A part of the vaccines produced there therefore go to Great Britain.”

and

”Initially, Halix from Leiden would even be used to produce for the United Kingdon exclusively”


If the UK government has invested a lot of money in the Dutch plant then its perfectly logical that they get vaccines from that plant. There is nothing wrong with that.


The EU paid AZ hundreds of millions to produce vaccine in that plant exclusively for them, so it is perfectly logical to expect all the vaccine from that plant. There is nothing wrong with that.


Precisely, at this stage people seem to forget that the root of the issue is AZ selling things (at least) twice.

Probably even more times that that as showed by the intended operation to Australia.
 
tommy1808
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Sun Mar 28, 2021 2:12 pm

JJJ wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
AeroVega wrote:

If the UK government has invested a lot of money in the Dutch plant then its perfectly logical that they get vaccines from that plant. There is nothing wrong with that.


The EU paid AZ hundreds of millions to produce vaccine in that plant exclusively for them, so it is perfectly logical to expect all the vaccine from that plant. There is nothing wrong with that.


Precisely, at this stage people seem to forget that the root of the issue is AZ selling things (at least) twice..


I don't think anyone participating in this thread can forget that, it has to be ignored....

Best regards
Thomas
 
marcelh
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Sun Mar 28, 2021 2:44 pm

AeroVega wrote:
marcelh wrote:
AeroVega wrote:
That is an interesting theory, but weakened a bit by fact that vaccines from the Halix plant are not approved yet for use in the UK.

(now approved, red)
Source: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKBN2BE1RY

It isn’t a theory, but already earlier explained in this thread how this plant became part of the UK production chain. Because of all the “noise” this plant has created the last month, I can imagine AZ has pushed back the approval by the UK authorities and sent them more vaccines produced in other places which are already approved by the UK.

https://nos.nl/artikel/2370277-farmaceut-astrazeneca-geeft-toe-britten-investeerden-in-nederlandse-productie.html in Dutch. (dated February 24)

”Last year the British government invested a lot of money to be able to produce covid-19 vaccines in the Netherlands. That has been stated by AstraZeneca CEO Pascal Soriot in the European Parliament. AstraZeneca eventually had to take over the contracts earlier signed.”

and

“The company is defined by AstraZeneca as part of the British production chain. A part of the vaccines produced there therefore go to Great Britain.”

and

”Initially, Halix from Leiden would even be used to produce for the United Kingdon exclusively”


If the UK government has invested a lot of money in the Dutch plant then its perfectly logical that they get vaccines from that plant. There is nothing wrong with that.

No? A government of a “friendly” nation is investing in a plant via a private investment partner. And it became only clear after the CEO of AZ was heard by the European Parliament.
And considering Brexit and “bad, bad EU”, it’s questionable to say the least. IMHO secretly “seizing” production capacity in a foreign country during a pandemic should be considered as an hostile act.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Sun Mar 28, 2021 5:25 pm

The AZ fight seems to be scaring away NovaVax:
https://www.the-sun.com/news/2594701/eu ... e-novavax/

A source said: “You can’t blame the company for being cautious after seeing the punishment beating given to AstraZeneca over the past few weeks. They are clearly unwilling to line themselves up as the new scapegoats for the EU’s failings.

“There are many more countries who want to do business.”

Novavax was spotted by Kate Bingham, then head of Britain’s vaccine taskforce, who clinched a deal for supplies last August.

I'm sure the UK "had a talk" with Novavax to ensure there isn't a conflict in supply.
As I posted in another thread, Novavax production started in Billingham, UK:
https://www.bing.com/search?q=novavax+p ... ORM=CHROMN

I haven't heard of the EU order for Valneva either? How is that going, completing "talks" isn't the same as funding a factory:
https://news.yahoo.com/eu-wraps-prelimi ... 01246.html

"Envisioned" doesn't start production. Has a large non-refundable sum been transferred for factory construction?


marcelh wrote:
AeroVega wrote:
marcelh wrote:
It isn’t a theory, but already earlier explained in this thread how this plant became part of the UK production chain. Because of all the “noise” this plant has created the last month, I can imagine AZ has pushed back the approval by the UK authorities and sent them more vaccines produced in other places which are already approved by the UK.

https://nos.nl/artikel/2370277-farmaceut-astrazeneca-geeft-toe-britten-investeerden-in-nederlandse-productie.html in Dutch. (dated February 24)

”Last year the British government invested a lot of money to be able to produce covid-19 vaccines in the Netherlands. That has been stated by AstraZeneca CEO Pascal Soriot in the European Parliament. AstraZeneca eventually had to take over the contracts earlier signed.”

and

“The company is defined by AstraZeneca as part of the British production chain. A part of the vaccines produced there therefore go to Great Britain.”

and

”Initially, Halix from Leiden would even be used to produce for the United Kingdon exclusively”


If the UK government has invested a lot of money in the Dutch plant then its perfectly logical that they get vaccines from that plant. There is nothing wrong with that.

No? A government of a “friendly” nation is investing in a plant via a private investment partner. And it became only clear after the CEO of AZ was heard by the European Parliament.
And considering Brexit and “bad, bad EU”, it’s questionable to say the least. IMHO secretly “seizing” production capacity in a foreign country during a pandemic should be considered as an hostile act.


No doubt AZ botched. They must have believed their production roadmap that has obviously been missed by all. They did really bad contract language.

Lightsaber
 
AirbusCheerlead
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Sun Mar 28, 2021 5:30 pm

Thierry Breton, EU's Commissioner for Internal Market and since two month "covid vaccine production tsar" today was guest on French TV. Link is unfortunately in french:
https://www.lci.fr/amp/sante/europe-vs- ... 81950.html

Main points from the debate/discussion are:
  • Europe will reach herd immunity by mid July (for the French public he said July 14.
  • in Q2 360 Mio vaccine will be delivered, further 60 Mio till mid July (or 420 Mio total)
  • With the vaccine allready delivered, two jabs for all willing adults til mid July (see first point)
  • Next week France will get 3 Mio Jabs => member state must get ready for massive vaccination increase.
  • 52 factories involved in producing in Europe
  • actual capacity at over 100 Mio jabs months, at end of year will be at over 200 Mio
  • Europe's factories will have capacity for 2 to 3 billion jabs/year going into 2022
  • booster production capacity for next Winter is ready (from production capacity 200 Mio/Month)
  • in each country for at least 5% of positif test, sequencing must happen and communicated to industry about mutations
  • Vaccination pass is ready (paper and cell phone), rapid test (a few minutes till results) will be available => rules still to be defined
  • each US and EU produced about 180 Mio jabs till now. US decided to us it for their population (he commented "it's their choice"), EU allowed export of about 40% of vaccine (he defended the choice with "we are not an island, and not sharing is not part of European tradition"
  • confirmed export to UK, Israel, Nato partners, and others came from EU.
  • AZ factories in EU will produce for EU. 70 Mio jabs expected in Q2, if AZ manage more output, they can export
  • Also defended AZ a little: "transforming an existing factory takes usually 2 years, we asked them to do it in 5 month. (Also added for a new factory it takes normally 4 years to bring online)
  • for future contract EU will check the factories before signing.
  • EU made volontary technology transfer possible within EU. For exemple BioNtech and Sanofi.
  • EU should/will create something similar to the US BARDA.

The one point that I missed in the discussion is that Thierry Breton didn't aknowleadge AZ huge effort to supply the world and has started production in 23 factories all over the world (in 15 countries).
 
sabenapilot
Topic Author
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Sun Mar 28, 2021 6:32 pm

AirbusCheerlead wrote:
Thierry Breton, EU's Commissioner for Internal Market and since two month "covid vaccine production tsar" today was guest on French TV.
[*] AZ factories in EU will produce for EU. 70 Mio jabs expected in Q2, if AZ manage more output, they can export


Indeed, the hard line towards A-Z is now the official line of the EC:
A-Z will FIRST have to deliver to the EU as contracted, only THEREAFTER can it think about exporting vaccines again.
 
gkirk
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Sun Mar 28, 2021 6:42 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
AirbusCheerlead wrote:
Thierry Breton, EU's Commissioner for Internal Market and since two month "covid vaccine production tsar" today was guest on French TV.
[*] AZ factories in EU will produce for EU. 70 Mio jabs expected in Q2, if AZ manage more output, they can export


Indeed, the hard line towards A-Z is now the official line of the EC:
A-Z will FIRST have to deliver to the EU as contracted, only THEREAFTER can it think about exporting vaccines again.

EU factories to EU,UK factories to UK seems fair enough
 
AirbusCheerlead
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Sun Mar 28, 2021 7:01 pm

Dear Lightsaber,

I'm not sure the sun is the most unbiased source.

lightsaber wrote:
The AZ fight seems to be scaring away NovaVax:
https://www.the-sun.com/news/2594701/eu ... e-novavax/


I unfortunately don't have a link at hand, but read earlier that the EU woried the factory in the Czech Republic was to small to produce the quantities asked for in the contract. See one of the points made by Mr Breton in my previous post.
Also diverse factories in Europe are part of the supply chain of Novavax. (Don't worry the EU won't interfer with those).

There is also a huge misunderstanding (or unwillingness to understand) on the EU's point of view from big part of the UK press. All they say is: if you think you produce 100 in EU factories and sell us 50 and export 50, but only manage to produce 50, then all your clients will carry the shortfall, meaning we get 25 and you can export 25.

Further more, the EU doesn't need to really on additional contracts. What they have bought is enough. If all goes as expected mid July they have enough vaccines. And if there is a short fall, the existing supply chain will deliver much faster than Novavax. (Because Novavax has already promised deliveries to the US and UK. Beside the 5. wheel in the EU's vaccine strategy in CureVac. Novavax and Valneva are only the 6. wheel.

lightsaber wrote:
I haven't heard of the EU order for Valneva either? How is that going, completing "talks" isn't the same as funding a factory:
https://news.yahoo.com/eu-wraps-prelimi ... 01246.html


When talking about factory investment, people seem often unaware of the huge pharmaceutical industry already available in Europe. Hence they need to invest less. Also it seems the US and UK press love to add the pre-payments in the US and UK help to produce vaccines while conveniently forgetting to do the same for the EU.

Will the EU buy some Novavax and Valneva? I don't know. But believe the will and mostly donate it to the COVAX program.
 
kelval
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Sun Mar 28, 2021 7:47 pm

lightsaber wrote:
The AZ fight seems to be scaring away NovaVax:
https://www.the-sun.com/news/2594701/eu ... e-novavax/


I've read the article and I didn't find any information.
No quantifiable info. It's just a pile of gloss on "he said she said" and "I think that....". No quote from any official, besides a Andrew Bridgen, that is highly biased against EU, and has nothing to do with the negociation between the EU and Novavax. Unsurprisingly, he has nothing worthwhile to say.

I had read that the Sun wasn't really high standard information; now I see for myself that it indeed isn't; and am pretty surprised you keep them in such high regard. You can't call that journalism, or information worth quoting.
 
AirbusCheerlead
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Sun Mar 28, 2021 8:07 pm

While much talk in the media (and here) is about contracts: when we're they singed, how much was paid, etc. and from that conclusions are made on vaccine deliveries, or in other words used by many to justify why the EU is supposed to be a failure.

It is my belief that this is nonsense (happy to be proven wrong). My assumption is that the contract negotiations for the US, EU, and to a lesser extend the UK, never were about delivery scedulde.

The UK had Oxford/AZ, hence they dictated how the local production was assigned and understandibly decided to keep it for them (not being part of a block).

The US had Moderna and decided to ramp up domestic production first and keep it home. Next they decided to build a supply chain in the EU, their second most lucrative market. We can see that in Q1 with about 90 Million dose produced in the US and only about 10 to 15 in EU.

With BioNTech and Pfizer there was a US/EU vaccine hence production shared between the two. From about 100 Mio jabs produced in the US and about 130 Mio in the EU it seems there is even a correlation between the population of both.

Finally with J&J we have a vaccine funded by operation wrap speed but contrary to Moderna with support from Europe through J&J's daughter company Janssen in Belgium and the Netherlands. While I don't know the split of vaccine production between US and EU, it will be more in favour of the EU compared to Moderna.

The US and the EU having their supply set, the US as promised by Trump went America first (we all remember how we mocked him with countless parodies about US first and others second). While I don't agree with Nation first, I think it's a perfectly valid opinion.
The EU on the other hand, decided to allow 40% to be exported to allies and other countries. I don't know if for those countries timing and price in the contracts mattered . But going back to UK successful vaccination start, I suppose it played a role.

The UK government knew that after Brexit it wouldn't have access to EU's full capabilities, and since they had not enough factories to cover themselves through AZ, it was vital to sign contracts rapidly and aggressively.

Also I applaud the UK for pushing a worldwide production chain through AZ in order to give many poorer countries access to a vaccine.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:13 pm

AirbusCheerlead wrote:
Dear Lightsaber,

I'm not sure the sun is the most unbiased source.

lightsaber wrote:
The AZ fight seems to be scaring away NovaVax:
https://www.the-sun.com/news/2594701/eu ... e-novavax/


I unfortunately don't have a link at hand, but read earlier that the EU woried the factory in the Czech Republic was to small to produce the quantities asked for in the contract. See one of the points made by Mr Breton in my previous post.
Also diverse factories in Europe are part of the supply chain of Novavax. (Don't worry the EU won't interfer with those).

There is also a huge misunderstanding (or unwillingness to understand) on the EU's point of view from big part of the UK press. All they say is: if you think you produce 100 in EU factories and sell us 50 and export 50, but only manage to produce 50, then all your clients will carry the shortfall, meaning we get 25 and you can export 25.

Further more, the EU doesn't need to really on additional contracts. What they have bought is enough. If all goes as expected mid July they have enough vaccines. And if there is a short fall, the existing supply chain will deliver much faster than Novavax. (Because Novavax has already promised deliveries to the US and UK. Beside the 5. wheel in the EU's vaccine strategy in CureVac. Novavax and Valneva are only the 6. wheel.

lightsaber wrote:
I haven't heard of the EU order for Valneva either? How is that going, completing "talks" isn't the same as funding a factory:
https://news.yahoo.com/eu-wraps-prelimi ... 01246.html


When talking about factory investment, people seem often unaware of the huge pharmaceutical industry already available in Europe. Hence they need to invest less. Also it seems the US and UK press love to add the pre-payments in the US and UK help to produce vaccines while conveniently forgetting to do the same for the EU.

Will the EU buy some Novavax and Valneva? I don't know. But believe the will and mostly donate it to the COVAX program.

There have been multiple sources that Novavax won't sign the EU deal. It seems usefull.
So why do you think they haven't signed?

I hope to be proven wrong, but it looks like this current wave will cut through long before enough vaccine is available earlier.

I disagree on not needing more supply. When we start talking the boosters for E484K variants, I am not seeing enough for the EU. Just my opinion.
With vaccine supply being contentious, that tells me not enough was invested early enough.

I've become cynical. I look for changes in the slope of this chart, not promises because it seems as if all suppliers are missing promise. I consider it just an artifact of the challenge of boosting production.

https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/co ... pean+Union

So it is my opinion more production is needed. How about we discuss again in two months? That should be when the E484K variants really go through both the US and Europe. Since NovaVax does supremely well against those variants, I am an extreme proponent of that vaccine. Just my opinion, but the published data looks very good.

Lightsaber
 
AeroVega
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 29, 2021 5:48 am

tommy1808 wrote:
The EU paid AZ hundreds of millions to produce vaccine in that plant exclusively for them, so it is perfectly logical to expect all the vaccine from that plant. There is nothing wrong with that.


Total nonsense. Here is the purchase agreement between AZ and EU:

Source: https://ec.europa.eu/commission/pressco ... Zeneca.pdf

Please point out where it says that the Halix plant is required to produce vaccine exclusively for the EU.
 
tommy1808
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 29, 2021 5:54 am

AeroVega wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
The EU paid AZ hundreds of millions to produce vaccine in that plant exclusively for them, so it is perfectly logical to expect all the vaccine from that plant. There is nothing wrong with that.


Total nonsense. Here is the purchase agreement between AZ and EU:

Source: https://ec.europa.eu/commission/pressco ... Zeneca.pdf

Please point out where it says that the Halix plant is required to produce vaccine exclusively for the EU.


having no competing obligations is just another way of phrasing exclusive.

best regards
Thomas
 
JJJ
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 29, 2021 7:24 am

tommy1808 wrote:
AeroVega wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
The EU paid AZ hundreds of millions to produce vaccine in that plant exclusively for them, so it is perfectly logical to expect all the vaccine from that plant. There is nothing wrong with that.


Total nonsense. Here is the purchase agreement between AZ and EU:

Source: https://ec.europa.eu/commission/pressco ... Zeneca.pdf

Please point out where it says that the Halix plant is required to produce vaccine exclusively for the EU.


having no competing obligations is just another way of phrasing exclusive.

best regards
Thomas


"Preferential" would probably a better word.

Mind you, that preferential access would also involve both UK plants which are equally listed in the contract.
 
GDB
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 29, 2021 7:58 am

From a German journalist in non Brexit mad paper;
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... accine-war

It's an awful thing when that Cummings creature says something semi coherent but only possible due to the utter foul up the EU has made of the pandemic, well done, by extension you've made his ex boss and our PM look almost good.
As the article points out, internal German politics seem to be driving Van der Leyden, along with 'group think' and the same rigidity that you would have expected they would have learned from after the Euro crisis.

Lashing out at the UK out of it seems anger at national vaccination failures and even at times from some on here, pure spite tinged with jealousy at the UK roll out, ain't going to get jabs in arms in the EU any faster.
Including the UK, after all we all want travel to resume and as an aside, start recovery in the aviation section to name one.
 
tommy1808
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:14 am

GDB wrote:
tinged with jealousy at the UK roll out, ain't going to get jabs in arms in the EU any faster..


forcing AZ to deliver on their contract however will.

best regards
Thomas
 
Olddog
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:28 am

The guardian, while not a pro Conservative newspaper, it first and foremost a deeply English newspaper. Just read their articles about Sturgeon and their stances on that matter.
 
sabenapilot
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:34 am

GDB wrote:
From a German journalist in non Brexit mad paper;
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... accine-war

It's an awful thing when that Cummings creature says something semi coherent but only possible due to the utter foul up the EU has made of the pandemic, well done, by extension you've made his ex boss and our PM look almost good.
As the article points out, internal German politics seem to be driving Van der Leyden, along with 'group think' and the same rigidity that you would have expected they would have learned from after the Euro crisis.

Lashing out at the UK out of it seems anger at national vaccination failures and even at times from some on here, pure spite tinged with jealousy at the UK roll out, ain't going to get jabs in arms in the EU any faster.
Including the UK, after all we all want travel to resume and as an aside, start recovery in the aviation section to name one.



Mind you, the obsession to constantly compare the vaccination campaign in the UK with the EU is essentially British thing, which occasionally flows over into European press happily drawing from English newspapers for their stories too!
All the EU has been doing is trying to make a multinational pharmaceutical company respect the spirit of the contract is has signed up to, meaning -ideally- deliver the doses exactly promissed, or -at worst- cut deliveries equally amongst all its clients.

For some odd reason the UK strongly identifies with A-Z, probably because it happens to bring to market what is locally called 'the oxford vaccine' as well as the fact A-Z seems to have decided that rather than to share the burden of much lower deliveries over all of its clients, they may as well make one big client a little bit more angry than they'd already be anyway to the full benefit of another one which then gets (almost) all vaccines as ordered, which suits the UK too.

But seriously: have the British press compared the EU's vaccination 'failure' as they like to call it to the vaccination campaigns of some Asian developed nations?
How's Japan doing? Korea? Even China? Do you even know without looking it up? Are they ahead or behind the one the UK press calls a failure?
Do the British press sense the urge to constantly compare to them too ? Or how about a 1:1 comparison to Israel then? Is the UK then suddenly a failure too in their eyes?
Seriously, sometimes you just sense a bit too much the eager to finally be able to have some positive news to say on the EU vs UK front.
If this is indicative of the general mood towards the EU, it shows just how unsure about itself the UK really is as a stand alone.

BTW- full protection is only offered when you get the second jab: the UK is behind on the EU even on that front, and what's worse, it's heavily relying on EU supplied vaccines to complete the vaccination campaign. A little bit less chest thumping would thus be highly appropiate if one does not want to risk a complete derailment of the British vaccination campaign in the second round. Which is why you see BoJo being so collaborative and relatively reluctant to howl with the wolves...
 
Ertro
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:10 am

In a country where I live there has been almost zero mention of anything british in any newspaper for months. Especially any political figure has not mention a word about UK for a long long time.
"Lashing out the UK" is complete fabrication from where I look at things. Even the vaccine issues in EU get barely any mention in the press. Not even the most EU-sceptic political parties have mentioned any "EU failures" at all. No normal citizen even knows the names of Von der Leyen or Juncker. They are complete nobodies to 99.9% of people.

All the covid and vaccine related talk in the press is solely about issues happening inside my country and failures of such which there are many. Nothing about EU level stuff and especially utterly completely nothing about UK at all.

The way UK press handles this issue seems utterly alien and baffling to me and the only way I can understand is that the UK press wants to make sure brexit is not questioned and any remaining pro-EU sentiment is squashed to make sure UK gets the hard brexit somebody in power there wants and UK does not start the process of closer relationship for the next 50 years. OF course the one success should be celebrated and I understand this completely. Why the celebration of one success cannot be enough and why it needs to be turned into hate against EU is what I cannot understand. We in EU would also get vaccinated and people in UK should understand this natural wish. Claiming that "because vaccination has been a failure so far it means that you don't have any right trying to improve" is not understandable.

Additional mention should be given that there exists powerful nations which are very anti-EU and pro-disinformation that drive discussions in facebook to be most harmful for EU and vaccinations and I believe if there is anti AZ sentiment in some EU countries it is because of this disinformation campaign that is ongoing on facebook.
 
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Aesma
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:02 am

GDB wrote:
From a German journalist in non Brexit mad paper;
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... accine-war

It's an awful thing when that Cummings creature says something semi coherent but only possible due to the utter foul up the EU has made of the pandemic, well done, by extension you've made his ex boss and our PM look almost good.
As the article points out, internal German politics seem to be driving Van der Leyden, along with 'group think' and the same rigidity that you would have expected they would have learned from after the Euro crisis.

Lashing out at the UK out of it seems anger at national vaccination failures and even at times from some on here, pure spite tinged with jealousy at the UK roll out, ain't going to get jabs in arms in the EU any faster.
Including the UK, after all we all want travel to resume and as an aside, start recovery in the aviation section to name one.


Let's imagine everything was reversed. The EU doing good with vaccination, and the UK very late, in part because they exported half their local production to the EU.

Are we really saying that BoJo would hesitate to block vaccine exports to the EU ?
 
tommy1808
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:10 am

Aesma wrote:
GDB wrote:
From a German journalist in non Brexit mad paper;
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... accine-war

It's an awful thing when that Cummings creature says something semi coherent but only possible due to the utter foul up the EU has made of the pandemic, well done, by extension you've made his ex boss and our PM look almost good.
As the article points out, internal German politics seem to be driving Van der Leyden, along with 'group think' and the same rigidity that you would have expected they would have learned from after the Euro crisis.

Lashing out at the UK out of it seems anger at national vaccination failures and even at times from some on here, pure spite tinged with jealousy at the UK roll out, ain't going to get jabs in arms in the EU any faster.
Including the UK, after all we all want travel to resume and as an aside, start recovery in the aviation section to name one.


Let's imagine everything was reversed. The EU doing good with vaccination, and the UK very late, in part because they exported half their local production to the EU.

Are we really saying that BoJo would hesitate to block vaccine exports to the EU ?


Considering the UK government immediately threatened to shut down all Biontech production by blocking exports if the EU enforces its AZ contract we already know the answer.

best regards
Thomas
 
Ertro
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:49 am

I tried to find what substance the accusation "von der Leyen focusing too much on UK and domestic German image" actually has.
Tried searching from one of the biggest german newspaper that I happened to remember: frankfurter allgemeine for anything relevant written in the last month.

searching: https://www.google.com/search?q=%22von+ ... &tbs=qdr:m

gave basically just 2 results that seemed relevant

https://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/aus ... 49726.html
https://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/aus ... 64103.html

translating those to english shows them to be pretty dry describing what is going on and not blaming UK more than what is necessary for the dry factual description what is going on.
I don't think any ordinary german is captivated by those articles at all.

If anybody thinks these only 2 big articles that can be found in germanys biggest newspaper from the last month show any even tiny hint that main drive for anything is somebodys image I just don't know what to say.
 
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Aesma
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:57 am

About that I read somewhere that Von Der Leyen was "Merkel's protegee", so like the Guardian is saying this is a German affair. She might have been that at some point in the past, but she wasn't Merkel's choice for commission president ! It's Emmanuel Macron that pushed for her to be chosen.
 
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par13del
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:19 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Considering the UK government immediately threatened to shut down all Biontech production by blocking exports if the EU enforces its AZ contract we already know the answer.

best regards
Thomas

Firstly you now seem to be saying that the AZ contract is sound as it relates to the EU, no lying or fraud by AZ.
Next the EU decides to halt all exports to the UK and other nations rendering the contracts with other commercial vendors null, and you expect those nations to sit and say ok?
Any nation who has any respect quota with the EU would follow the EU lead as no OEM at this point is meeting contractual obligations, seem perfectly reasonable to me...
 
Olddog
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:23 am

But you talk like if we should act while ignoring how other parties act? We are in a vacuum.
 
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par13del
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:46 pm

Olddog wrote:
But you talk like if we should act while ignoring how other parties act? We are in a vacuum.

So based on Tommy, the UK seems to be following the EU lead. The EU has a contract with no competing obligations, so they are acting based on that, as other poster have stated, what contracts the OEM's has with other parties is of no concern to the EU. The articles we saw so far is the intent to block vaccine exports,not only AZ. The articles also say no exports of vaccine were coming from the UK, so do we take that to mean no raw materials either, that seems to be in doubt as it would be the only UK card.

The UK started it vaccination program where a high number of first shots were done using Pfizer, as the president of France has stated, the EU controls whether the UK program continues on its successful path, and as other posters have stated, the EU holds all the cards and are using them. So if any other country has a card to play, why would they not follow the EU lead and use them?
The terms we grew up with was "Tit for Tat, etc etc etc" or another way, "Every action has....."
 
GDB
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:00 pm

Olddog wrote:
The guardian, while not a pro Conservative newspaper, it first and foremost a deeply English newspaper. Just read their articles about Sturgeon and their stances on that matter.


It's by far and away the most pro European paper and it, shock-horror, covers politics in Scotland, not with the hostility of the Tory press, the SNP have made their own mess and your attempt to shoot the messenger proves my point.
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:06 pm

Ertro wrote:
The way UK press handles this issue seems utterly alien and baffling to me and the only way I can understand is that the UK press wants to make sure brexit is not questioned and any remaining pro-EU sentiment is squashed


Well that's essentially my feeling from inside the UK too (constantly repeating how the UK vaccination is attacked by an EU who can't handle their own rollout).
 
tommy1808
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:28 pm

par13del wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Considering the UK government immediately threatened to shut down all Biontech production by blocking exports if the EU enforces its AZ contract we already know the answer.

best regards
Thomas

Firstly you now seem to be saying that the AZ contract is sound as it relates to the EU, no lying or fraud by AZ.


I always said the EUs contract with AZ is sound, it is just that AZ lied in the contract.

best regards
Thomas
 
marcelh
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:29 pm

GDB wrote:
Olddog wrote:
The guardian, while not a pro Conservative newspaper, it first and foremost a deeply English newspaper. Just read their articles about Sturgeon and their stances on that matter.


It's by far and away the most pro European paper and it, shock-horror, covers politics in Scotland, not with the hostility of the Tory press, the SNP have made their own mess and your attempt to shoot the messenger proves my point.

It proves nothing. Just UK propaganda brought by a UK newspaper. Just another attempt to derail this thread into a EU vs UK discussion.

I’m amazed the way the UK newspapers are informing me by telling the EU is incompetent. OK, I know the EU could have done better (also stated multiple times by the EU themselves), but I don’t think they are incompetent.

OTOH, seizing valuable production capacity secretly in a friendly country - as the UK has done with Halix - the facts are in this thread, has to be considered as “competent”? Scr.w..g your neighbor isn’t the smartest thing one could imagine.....
Last edited by marcelh on Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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par13del
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:38 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
par13del wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Considering the UK government immediately threatened to shut down all Biontech production by blocking exports if the EU enforces its AZ contract we already know the answer.

best regards
Thomas

Firstly you now seem to be saying that the AZ contract is sound as it relates to the EU, no lying or fraud by AZ.


I always said the EUs contract with AZ is sound, it is just that AZ lied in the contract.

best regards
Thomas

How can a contract be sound if one party in the contract lied?
However, as stated, now that the EU knows that they lied they are making the contract "truthful" by force of action, which is a good thing, right?
 
ElPistolero
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:47 pm

Just a reminder of how silly this debate has come.

“The UK's vaccine supplies will not be shared with other countries until all British adults have been offered a jab, Downing Street has suggested.

This morning Northern Ireland's First Minister Arlene Foster said the UK should "share it with our nearest neighbours out of neighbourliness" as well as the "very practical reason" that people are crossing the border from the Republic, where supplies are limited.”
...
Pressed if this meant that supplies would not be shared until every single adult in the UK has been offered a vaccine, the spokesman said: "Our first priority is to protect the British public."“

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... x-salmond/

UK: we won’t export till our own are taken care off = “better at negotiating contracts”, “contractual obligations”, blah blah blah.

EU: we won’t export till our own are taken care off = “vaccine nationalism!”, “disrupting global supply chains”, “bad for everyone”

Might be time for some folk here to take a step back and reflect on the inconsistency (dare I say hypocrisy) of their approach.

As a resident of a non-vaccine producing country, I really don’t want the EU to go down this route. (Frankly I don’t think they will.)

But then again, it’s not lost on us on this side of the Atlantic that for all their harping about close and Commonwealth ties and other Brexiteer-y nonsense that vaccines produced in the EU are being delivered here, while the UK has sent sweet eff all (aside from the more infectious and severe “British variant” which is driving a third wave, anyway).
 
marcelh
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:48 pm

par13del wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
par13del wrote:
Firstly you now seem to be saying that the AZ contract is sound as it relates to the EU, no lying or fraud by AZ.


I always said the EUs contract with AZ is sound, it is just that AZ lied in the contract.

best regards
Thomas

How can a contract be sound if one party in the contract lied?
However, as stated, now that the EU knows that they lied they are making the contract "truthful" by force of action, which is a good thing, right?

It’s necessary, otherwise the EU is misused as “useful idiots”.
 
tommy1808
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:50 pm

par13del wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
par13del wrote:
Firstly you now seem to be saying that the AZ contract is sound as it relates to the EU, no lying or fraud by AZ.


I always said the EUs contract with AZ is sound, it is just that AZ lied in the contract.

best regards
Thomas

How can a contract be sound if one party in the contract lied?


No matter how sound the contract is, one party can lie. Adding a "we guarantee we did not lie in this contract" clause won´t change anything...

However, as stated, now that the EU knows that they lied they are making the contract "truthful" by force of action, which is a good thing, right?


For the EU it is, for others is may not. There may be humanitarian considerations as well. AZ not lying would have been fine, since more Biontech would have been ordered earlier.

best regards
Thomas
Last edited by tommy1808 on Mon Mar 29, 2021 2:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
ElPistolero
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:58 pm

par13del wrote:
Olddog wrote:
But you talk like if we should act while ignoring how other parties act? We are in a vacuum.

So based on Tommy, the UK seems to be following the EU lead. The EU has a contract with no competing obligations, so they are acting based on that, as other poster have stated, what contracts the OEM's has with other parties is of no concern to the EU. The articles we saw so far is the intent to block vaccine exports,not only AZ. The articles also say no exports of vaccine were coming from the UK, so do we take that to mean no raw materials either, that seems to be in doubt as it would be the only UK card.

The UK started it vaccination program where a high number of first shots were done using Pfizer, as the president of France has stated, the EU controls whether the UK program continues on its successful path, and as other posters have stated, the EU holds all the cards and are using them. So if any other country has a card to play, why would they not follow the EU lead and use them?
The terms we grew up with was "Tit for Tat, etc etc etc" or another way, "Every action has....."


Fairly easy one. The EU is targeting one company which is not exporting product it makes in the UK anyway.

The UK export ban will be targeting vaccines that are being distributed all over the world. Not too many countries care outside the EU and UK care about AZ. They won’t be quite as passive about the UK blowing up their EU-supplied Pfizer vaccines.

If you distill it to the basics, it boils down to this: the UK produces vaccines and explicitly refuses to export them; the EU produces and exports. How do you think third countries are going to react if the former stops the latter from exporting to them?

Or is the whole world now about the EU and UK only?
Last edited by ElPistolero on Mon Mar 29, 2021 2:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
GDB
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 29, 2021 2:00 pm

Aesma wrote:
GDB wrote:
From a German journalist in non Brexit mad paper;
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... accine-war

It's an awful thing when that Cummings creature says something semi coherent but only possible due to the utter foul up the EU has made of the pandemic, well done, by extension you've made his ex boss and our PM look almost good.
As the article points out, internal German politics seem to be driving Van der Leyden, along with 'group think' and the same rigidity that you would have expected they would have learned from after the Euro crisis.

Lashing out at the UK out of it seems anger at national vaccination failures and even at times from some on here, pure spite tinged with jealousy at the UK roll out, ain't going to get jabs in arms in the EU any faster.
Including the UK, after all we all want travel to resume and as an aside, start recovery in the aviation section to name one.


Let's imagine everything was reversed. The EU doing good with vaccination, and the UK very late, in part because they exported half their local production to the EU.

Are we really saying that BoJo would hesitate to block vaccine exports to the EU ?


Imagine? That's the sort of thing I thought would happen, keep on trying to paint me and all 67 million of us as rabidly anti EU, it speaks volumes. In 2016 I posted on here how ashamed I was about Brexit and that has got worse, I hate Johnson and his motley, crooked crew.
Perhaps I shouldn't mention this, I haven't before and will probably get modded, in the 2010 election UKIP leader and useless MEP Nigel Farage was in a light aircraft towing a banner, it crashed, he survived. I know how bad this sounds and I feel guilty for even thinking it but in the past 5 years I have wished he hadn't, as when he was not running UKIP (and scaring Cameron), they fell apart.

So I really resent being painted as what I am not, so now we have a fetish for Oxford and their vaccine program? My NHS vaccination card shows I had Pfizer on 3rd Feb, my 90 in June Mother had the AZ one a few weeks before, (hence my contempt for Macron and Merkel's politically charged and dangerous remarks). I know of plenty of others but I don't know, haven't asked and don't care which ones they had.
Not had Covid, nor has anyone I know, it has however destroyed, forever, my working life, luckily I am solvent, for all that I do not want to see others have the same. Hence my exasperation at the EU's botched then blame shifting roll out.

Been on here 20 years come May, so I know that some on this site from Europe never have been fans, to put it mildly of the British, some well before Brexit was even a thing, they and the others might not know this but in a total reversal of his usual ways, 'Boris' has not been jumping up and down making political hay of this, he has now a more sensible media advisor it is thought, besides most science opinion puts his government's failings on late lockdowns, dodgy contracts to friends for things like Track and Trace, too soon to ease up, as causing perhaps 20-40,000 deaths.
I want him to face the consequences of this, hence my anger at the EU incompetence in the vaccine, giving him political cover.
Last edited by GDB on Mon Mar 29, 2021 2:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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par13del
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 29, 2021 2:07 pm

ElPistolero wrote:

Fairly easy one. The EU is targeting one company which is not exporting product it makes in the UK anyway.

The UK export ban will be targeting vaccines that are being distributed all over the world. Not too many countries care outside the EU and UK care about AZ. They won’t be quite as passive about the UK blowing up their EU-supplied Pfizer vaccines.

If you distill it to the basics, it boils down to this: the UK produces vaccines and explicitly refuses to export them; the EU produces and exports. How do you think third countries are going to react if the former stops the latter from exporting to them?

Or is the whole world now about the EU and UK only?

Ahhh yes, COVAX vaccines that were to be delivered in Feb-2021 have been delayed and at least here they are due to be delivered this week, time will tell.
We started our program here thanks to the good will of the Indian government who gifted us 20k doses while those that we paid for are still in the wide blue yonder, so you tell me.
 
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par13del
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 29, 2021 2:16 pm

GDB wrote:
Imagine? That's the sort of thing I thought would happen, keep on trying to paint me and all 67 million of us as rabidly anti EU, it speaks volumes. In 2016 I posted on here how ashamed I was about Brexit and that has got worse, I hate Johnson and his motley, crooked crew.
Perhaps I shouldn't mention this, I haven't before and will probably get modded, in the 2010 election UKIP leader and useless MEP Nigel Farage was in a light aircraft towing a banner, it crashed, he survived. I know how bad this sounds and I feel guilty for even thinking it but in the past 5 years I have wished he hadn't, as when he was not running UKIP (and scaring Cameron), they fell apart.
So I really resent being painted as what I am not, so now we have a fetish for Oxford and their vaccine program?

Do you really believe that the EU and its constituents will consider treating the UK as two separate entities, the people who wished to remain and the government?
Unfortunately, everyone is lumped in as a whole.......as the government goes so does it citizens, the process is much different in the EU where the EU regulatory bodies can say one thing but individual governments are free to do as they wish, the UK does not have that luxury.

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