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DTVG
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Sun May 09, 2021 6:37 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
DTVG wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:

Wait till the modalities and consequences of the EU lawsuit against them are fully understood...

Not only their corporate reputation is completely trashed by their scandalous behaviour, also their balance sheet: the EC will make sure it really hurts.

All for the sake of a few tens of millions of jabs secretly exported to the UK ? ? ?

Whatever were they thinking?


Until now there hasn’t been any legal ruling on the whole affair, but it seems you and the EU are already out for some payback as if there had been some kind of verdict.
I also find it childish to prematurely exclude AZ from future procurements. Who knows, maybe AZ will have something good in 2022 and 2023… Just shows how decision making at the EU is made.


I don't know what standards companies rewarded with government contracts in the UK normally need to adhere to, but any company which can not deliver what it guaranteed by a factor 4 even and tries to hide this massive production shortfall from sight so the client can not order from competitors instead, is indeed not a partner worthy of any future business, so the EU rightfully took its mega order for 1.8 billion vaccines for 2022/2023 to Pfizer instead.

A-Z's Oxford vaccine is indeed finished off: in the US it never lifted off even, while in Europe it stalled on take-off... its reputation is truly trashed: good for third world use only, seems to be the first world's consensus.


AZ botched up the whole delivery and it’s response has been bad. I also agree that it seems to be less effective then mRNA vaccines and then there is the blood clotting issue (which J&J apparently also has).
However, unlike the mRNA vaccines, AZ’s not only is AFAIK cheaper but also considerably easier to transport and handle, which is important in developing/third world countries (so yes, it’s good for third world use). If you consider how many people actually live there vs the US and EU plus the fact that India (a major pharma hub) is also producing the vaccine, it is not difficult to imagine that AZ will the the most widely used vaccine in the world. Additionally, the vaccination campaign in the UK with AZ seems to be working very well, even though most have only got one shot.

Thus I honestly don’t understand why you are calling the AZ vaccine “finished off”. Is this something the Eurocrats say to feel better?
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Sun May 09, 2021 7:16 pm

And the pity is that AZ is an OK and probably inexpensive vaccine that could save a lot of lives where the others may be too expensive. But after all the failings and bad publicity (much self induced) a lot of very low income nations will find it is politically impossible to use it.
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sabenapilot
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Sun May 09, 2021 7:26 pm

DTVG wrote:
I honestly don’t understand why you are calling the AZ vaccine “finished off”. Is this something the Eurocrats say to feel better?


Because I simply translated Marcelh's "kaltgestellt" for those who do not know the exact meaning of this German word...

Out of personal interest -
what's the petname given by British tabloids to the civil servants at the US FDA who still haven't approved A-Z's vaccine for use in the United States of America?
Obviously they must be holding a similar grudge too for being so needlessly reluctant towards this British vaccine and favour the technologically far more advanced mRNA vaccines of Moderna and Pfizer instead, just like the EU is also doing as from next month. :sarcastic:

Seriously, A-Z trashed its own reputation and that of the rather basic Oxford vaccine it rather pathetically tries to manufacture; it doesn't need any help at doing so from either the EU's EMA or the US FDA.
 
tommy1808
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon May 10, 2021 5:44 am

DTVG wrote:
Who knows, maybe AZ will have something good in 2022 and 2023…


since AZ doesn´t work on mRNA vaccines as far as we know .....

Just shows how decision making at the EU is made.


yup, "this companies reliability killed thousands of people in the EU, we won´t risk that again" is the sort of common sense decision you don´t often see in governments.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Olddog
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon May 10, 2021 5:51 am

And nothing block EU states to buy AZ directly for their countries if they with.
 
DTVG
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon May 10, 2021 7:08 am

tommy1808 wrote:
DTVG wrote:
Who knows, maybe AZ will have something good in 2022 and 2023…


since AZ doesn´t work on mRNA vaccines as far as we know .....

Just shows how decision making at the EU is made.


yup, "this companies reliability killed thousands of people in the EU, we won´t risk that again" is the sort of common sense decision you don´t often see in governments.

best regards
Thomas


Well I don't live in the EU, but in some country right next to it, and Moderna and Biotech were/are also delayed, although I agree, substantially less then AZ. If I wanted to make a sensational headline I could just as well claim, that their delay also caused thousands of deaths...

And while I'm at it, I could also come and say that Macrons comments on AZ regarding its effectiveness in general killed thousands, as people were/are hesitant to take it...
 
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seahawk
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon May 10, 2021 7:14 am

frmrCapCadet wrote:
And the pity is that AZ is an OK and probably inexpensive vaccine that could save a lot of lives where the others may be too expensive. But after all the failings and bad publicity (much self induced) a lot of very low income nations will find it is politically impossible to use it.


But only if AZ would meet the delivery schedule. For the EU it is simply a question of ordering more AZ or ordering a different vaccine, with some manufacturers offering much more secure contracts and reliable delivery obligations.
 
marcelh
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon May 10, 2021 7:34 am

DTVG wrote:
AZ botched up the whole delivery and it’s response has been bad.

IMHO, this is the reason why the EU don’t want to continue with AZ.

However, unlike the mRNA vaccines, AZ’s not only is AFAIK cheaper but also considerably easier to transport and handle, which is important in developing/third world countries (so yes, it’s good for third world use). If you consider how many people actually live there vs the US and EU plus the fact that India (a major pharma hub) is also producing the vaccine, it is not difficult to imagine that AZ will the the most widely used vaccine in the world. Additionally, the vaccination campaign in the UK with AZ seems to be working very well, even though most have only got one shot.

The issue is production ramp up. A vaccine may be cheaper and easier to transport, but that are only theoretical issues when no vaccine is being delivered.
 
marcelh
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon May 10, 2021 8:05 am

DTVG wrote:
Well I don't live in the EU, but in some country right next to it, and Moderna and Biotech were/are also delayed, although I agree, substantially less then AZ. If I wanted to make a sensational headline I could just as well claim, that their delay also caused thousands of deaths...


By March 28th, in the Netherlands Pfizer and Morderna delivered approx, 90% of the initially planned amount. By then, AZ had only delivered 60% of the already adjusted amount of 1.5 million doses (initially, AZ should deliver 4.5 million doses).
 
Olddog
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon May 10, 2021 8:08 am

[quote="DTVG"p]

And while I'm at it, I could also come and say that Macrons comments on AZ regarding its effectiveness in general killed thousands, as people were/are hesitant to take it...[/quote]

Macron comment killed none as the was no AZ vaccine to see at that time....
 
sabenapilot
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon May 10, 2021 8:44 am

Olddog wrote:
DTVG wrote:

And while I'm at it, I could also come and say that Macrons comments on AZ regarding its effectiveness in general killed thousands, as people were/are hesitant to take it...


Macron comment killed none as the was no AZ vaccine to see at that time....


At that time, A-Z was massively underproducing and keeping much of its limited EU production output well out of sight from the EC by hiding it deep in some Italian warehouse in order to swap it for Indian produced A-Z vaccines bound for the UK! A deceiptful vaccine carousel set up to skim the EU off the limited number of vaccines it only had available, all under the guise of the Covax program, most likely with the help of the UK governement even!

And then people wonder why the EC does no longer want to deal with this company, even though the vaccine it pathetically tries to produce is a relatively good one while being the cheapest on the market...

:banghead:
 
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Aesma
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon May 10, 2021 9:56 am

Some doctors are now confident they can catch and treat correctly the rare cases of thrombosis caused by the AZ vaccine. In France a 24yo medical student was killed by this, so that has caused a lot of concern, if even someone in the medical field couldn't understand what was happening, nor get life saving treatment...

Now think about developing countries, and clearly people getting that side effect in some of them are doomed.
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JJJ
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon May 10, 2021 10:02 am

tommy1808 wrote:
DTVG wrote:
Who knows, maybe AZ will have something good in 2022 and 2023…


since AZ doesn´t work on mRNA vaccines as far as we know .....

Just shows how decision making at the EU is made.


yup, "this companies reliability killed thousands of people in the EU, we won´t risk that again" is the sort of common sense decision you don´t often see in governments.


Actually blacklisting companies who don't meet contractual obligations is pretty common.

There are quite a few articles to that regard in current Public Procurement laws. Failing to meet "key and essential clauses" is just one of them (as is failure to notify and a few others it seems AZ also broke).
 
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par13del
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon May 10, 2021 11:00 am

Aesma wrote:
Some doctors are now confident they can catch and treat correctly the rare cases of thrombosis caused by the AZ vaccine. In France a 24yo medical student was killed by this, so that has caused a lot of concern, if even someone in the medical field couldn't understand what was happening, nor get life saving treatment...

Now think about developing countries, and clearly people getting that side effect in some of them are doomed.

So as far as we know, Pfizer, Moderna and JJ are safe with no side effects whatsoever that the developed world would have to worry about?
This is shooting much better than traditional vaccines like the flu shot which has side effects every year.
 
marcelh
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon May 10, 2021 12:44 pm

par13del wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Some doctors are now confident they can catch and treat correctly the rare cases of thrombosis caused by the AZ vaccine. In France a 24yo medical student was killed by this, so that has caused a lot of concern, if even someone in the medical field couldn't understand what was happening, nor get life saving treatment...

Now think about developing countries, and clearly people getting that side effect in some of them are doomed.

So as far as we know, Pfizer, Moderna and JJ are safe with no side effects whatsoever that the developed world would have to worry about?
This is shooting much better than traditional vaccines like the flu shot which has side effects every year.

JJ does have some side effects
https://www.google.nl/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/04/23/health/johnson-vaccine-acip-recommendation/index.html
Denmark has stopped use of JJ:
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/denmark-excludes-jj-shot-vaccine-programme-local-media-reports-2021-05-03/
 
art
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon May 10, 2021 2:15 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
Olddog wrote:
DTVG wrote:

And while I'm at it, I could also come and say that Macrons comments on AZ regarding its effectiveness in general killed thousands, as people were/are hesitant to take it...


Macron comment killed none as the was no AZ vaccine to see at that time....


At that time, A-Z was massively underproducing and keeping much of its limited EU production output well out of sight from the EC by hiding it deep in some Italian warehouse in order to swap it for Indian produced A-Z vaccines bound for the UK! A deceiptful vaccine carousel set up to skim the EU off the limited number of vaccines it only had available, all under the guise of the Covax program, most likely with the help of the UK governement even!

And then people wonder why the EC does no longer want to deal with this company, even though the vaccine it pathetically tries to produce is a relatively good one while being the cheapest on the market...

:banghead:


Yes, the EU body organising vaccine orders would be dumb to continue dealing with AZ.

That raises the question of what henceforth happens to AZ vaccine stocks in EU and to production in EU. Where will it go?
 
Olddog
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon May 10, 2021 2:32 pm

What was bought, will be used. For the rest Covax program needs all it can grab
 
sabenapilot
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Tue May 11, 2021 11:00 am

The EC today launched a second court case against A-Z in Brussels.

AstraZeneca had originally agreed with the EU to deliver 300m doses by the end of June, but has so far delivered only 50m, and has said it aims to ship 100m shots by the end of June.The European Union wants AstraZeneca to deliver at least 120m doses of its Covid-19 vaccine by the end of June as it promissed under its revised delivery schedule, The lawsuit is mostly procedural – pertaining to the merits of the issue – after a first case was already launched in April which would allow the European Union to seek possible financial penalties and real compensation for damages.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/ ... 3dcfacdbe7
 
art
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Tue May 11, 2021 3:26 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
The EC today launched a second court case against A-Z in Brussels.

AstraZeneca had originally agreed with the EU to deliver 300m doses by the end of June, but has so far delivered only 50m, and has said it aims to ship 100m shots by the end of June.The European Union wants AstraZeneca to deliver at least 120m doses of its Covid-19 vaccine by the end of June as it promissed under its revised delivery schedule, The lawsuit is mostly procedural – pertaining to the merits of the issue – after a first case was already launched in April which would allow the European Union to seek possible financial penalties and real compensation for damages.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/ ... 3dcfacdbe7


I think that it is certain that a lot of people who would not otherwise have suffered harm or death through catching COVID-19 did suffer that fate due to AZ late delivery. I think that AZ covered themselves against liability in their contract (words along the lines of 'best endeavours to meet delivery schedules'). Their possible negligence in failing to provide accurate and timely information about scheduled delivery holdups seems to be their Achilles heel to me (though I am no lawyer). Heaven help Astra Zeneca if they are found legally liable for hundreds/thousands of avoidable cases of harm or death.
 
Olddog
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Tue May 11, 2021 3:57 pm

No contract can protection you from deceptive practice in EU law.
 
ElPistolero
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Tue May 11, 2021 11:29 pm

par13del wrote:
So as far as we know, Pfizer, Moderna and JJ are safe with no side effects whatsoever that the developed world would have to worry about?
This is shooting much better than traditional vaccines like the flu shot which has side effects every year.


No, what we know is that all of them have side effects, but AZ’s rate is so high, it’s benefits are being called into question.

According to Health Canada, the current estimated rate of VITT in Canada is approximately one case per 100,000 persons vaccinated with the AstraZeneca vaccine.

“Ontario’s COVID science table, in a brief published Friday, said the risk, based on published estimates, could be as much as one in 26,000.

Morris’ best estimate is that one in 40,000 doses will lead to VITT, a condition that frequently results in complications, with about one in five leading to death and many more cases of severe illness. Given the risk, AstraZeneca only makes sense for those at very high risk of COVID, he said. “But why give them AZ, when we can give them an mRNA vax?”

Twelve cases of VITT have been reported in Canada, including three deaths. “To me, the most important issue is, we were aware of this a month ago — we probably didn’t appreciate the frequency as much a month ago, although we suspected it,” Morris said.”

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/ve ... specialist

1 in 40,000 is ... unusual by any standard. Will be surprised if the US approves it. And won’t be surprised if it becomes less popular in the EU as mRNA comes online. The bright side - faster vaccinations in India and other hotspots.
 
marcelh
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed May 12, 2021 5:13 am

ElPistolero wrote:
par13del wrote:
So as far as we know, Pfizer, Moderna and JJ are safe with no side effects whatsoever that the developed world would have to worry about?
This is shooting much better than traditional vaccines like the flu shot which has side effects every year.


No, what we know is that all of them have side effects, but AZ’s rate is so high, it’s benefits are being called into question.

According to Health Canada, the current estimated rate of VITT in Canada is approximately one case per 100,000 persons vaccinated with the AstraZeneca vaccine.

“Ontario’s COVID science table, in a brief published Friday, said the risk, based on published estimates, could be as much as one in 26,000.

Morris’ best estimate is that one in 40,000 doses will lead to VITT, a condition that frequently results in complications, with about one in five leading to death and many more cases of severe illness. Given the risk, AstraZeneca only makes sense for those at very high risk of COVID, he said. “But why give them AZ, when we can give them an mRNA vax?”

Twelve cases of VITT have been reported in Canada, including three deaths. “To me, the most important issue is, we were aware of this a month ago — we probably didn’t appreciate the frequency as much a month ago, although we suspected it,” Morris said.”

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/ve ... specialist

1 in 40,000 is ... unusual by any standard. Will be surprised if the US approves it. And won’t be surprised if it becomes less popular in the EU as mRNA comes online. The bright side - faster vaccinations in India and other hotspots.


The 1 in 100,000 cases is also in line with the EMA findings:
https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/news/astrazenecas-covid-19-vaccine-benefits-risks-context

It gives also some good context about the risks:
https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/documents/chmp-annex/annex-vaxzevria-art53-visual-risk-contextualisation_en.pdf
 
tommy1808
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed May 12, 2021 5:45 am

marcelh wrote:


bottom line: unless you are over 40 getting vaccinated with AZ doesn´t have any real risk benefit.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed May 12, 2021 9:04 am

[threeid][/threeid]
marcelh wrote:


Hey, those really are good visualisations. Very clear how the risks change with age and infection rates.
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
JJJ
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed May 12, 2021 9:45 am

tommy1808 wrote:
marcelh wrote:


bottom line: unless you are over 40 getting vaccinated with AZ doesn´t have any real risk benefit.

best regards
Thomas


Which still is a lot of people who are still waiting for their vaccine.
 
tommy1808
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed May 12, 2021 10:04 am

JJJ wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
marcelh wrote:


bottom line: unless you are over 40 getting vaccinated with AZ doesn´t have any real risk benefit.

best regards
Thomas


Which still is a lot of people who are still waiting for their vaccine.


Oh yes, still definitely plenty of folks where the benefit is clear to be vaccinated.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
marcelh
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed May 12, 2021 10:18 am

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
[threeid][/threeid]
marcelh wrote:


Hey, those really are good visualisations. Very clear how the risks change with age and infection rates.


This, and it’s also clear that vaccination is necessary. You can also get a view of the number of hospitalization because of the lack of a vaccine….
 
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par13del
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed May 12, 2021 12:35 pm

marcelh wrote:
SomebodyInTLS wrote:
[threeid][/threeid]
marcelh wrote:


Hey, those really are good visualisations. Very clear how the risks change with age and infection rates.


This, and it’s also clear that vaccination is necessary. You can also get a view of the number of hospitalization because of the lack of a vaccine….

Pity such visuals were not widely available a couple months ago, in a number of quarters in and out of the EU, they are now meaningless, those on the fence on the AZ vaccine have long since jumped, cancellations galore by those who can least afford it, however, they can easily keep their populations locked down, with all the other side effects.
 
marcelh
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed May 12, 2021 12:52 pm

par13del wrote:
marcelh wrote:
SomebodyInTLS wrote:
[threeid][/threeid]

Hey, those really are good visualisations. Very clear how the risks change with age and infection rates.


This, and it’s also clear that vaccination is necessary. You can also get a view of the number of hospitalization because of the lack of a vaccine….

Pity such visuals were not widely available a couple months ago, in a number of quarters in and out of the EU, they are now meaningless, those on the fence on the AZ vaccine have long since jumped, cancellations galore by those who can least afford it, however, they can easily keep their populations locked down, with all the other side effects.

Real issue was (and is) the lack of getting AZ vaccines. They just managed to hit the 50 million mark a few days ago…..
 
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par13del
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed May 12, 2021 1:08 pm

marcelh wrote:
par13del wrote:
marcelh wrote:

This, and it’s also clear that vaccination is necessary. You can also get a view of the number of hospitalization because of the lack of a vaccine….

Pity such visuals were not widely available a couple months ago, in a number of quarters in and out of the EU, they are now meaningless, those on the fence on the AZ vaccine have long since jumped, cancellations galore by those who can least afford it, however, they can easily keep their populations locked down, with all the other side effects.

Real issue was (and is) the lack of getting AZ vaccines. They just managed to hit the 50 million mark a few days ago…..

Unfortunately, the damage has already been done, countries who are cancelling AZ orders and deliveries are not doing so because of supply, they are saying they do not want a faulty product and will do without a vaccine until another variant is available, so in essence, the supply shortage has now been moved to other vaccines, none of whom have been meeting their targets or failing to meet their targets to the extent of AZ, whichever version one is most comfortable with.
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed May 12, 2021 1:58 pm

par13del wrote:
marcelh wrote:
SomebodyInTLS wrote:
[threeid][/threeid]

Hey, those really are good visualisations. Very clear how the risks change with age and infection rates.


This, and it’s also clear that vaccination is necessary. You can also get a view of the number of hospitalization because of the lack of a vaccine….

Pity such visuals were not widely available a couple months ago, in a number of quarters in and out of the EU, they are now meaningless, those on the fence on the AZ vaccine have long since jumped, cancellations galore by those who can least afford it, however, they can easily keep their populations locked down, with all the other side effects.


Well ironically, as someone aged 50 in a low-infection area it makes others' criticism of the AZ vaccine more valid than I expected. At the time I was only hearing about clot risks in the hundreds of thousands to 1 - but the charts show 1-2 per 100000 increased risk of clots versus 6-10 reduced risk of hospitalisation, 1 for ICU and 1 for death... in other words, I was apparently more likely to get clots from the vaccine than have the vaccine prevent me die from COVID - not at all the risks I had been led to believe!

I don't regret getting the AZ vaccine (clearly the more people are vaccinated the faster infections will be halted), and I will still go for the second dose, but I am genuinely surprised that the benefit of taking the vaccine was actually so small.
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
ElPistolero
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed May 12, 2021 2:53 pm

par13del wrote:
Unfortunately, the damage has already been done, countries who are cancelling AZ orders and deliveries are not doing so because of supply, they are saying they do not want a faulty product and will do without a vaccine until another variant is available, so in essence, the supply shortage has now been moved to other vaccines, none of whom have been meeting their targets or failing to meet their targets to the extent of AZ, whichever version one is most comfortable with.


Damage? If anything, it releases AZ stock for countries that have higher risk profiles and need them more. Like India.

Ontario (40% of Canada’s population) has suspended AZ first doses now that the third wave is easing a little. It’s study has shown that the AZ risk is actually higher than what EMA and Health Canada have put forward. It’s all data-driven - there is a tangible tipping point.

Note that the UK has made a similar call by offering alternatives to under-40s.

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-57021738

As one Canadian epidemiologist puts it:

“Seconded. I’ve done the numbers too. AZ was a useful tool, but our knowledge and understanding, and our supply of other vaccines, has changed. VITT is devastating. We need to move on.”

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/ve ... specialist
 
marcelh
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed May 12, 2021 3:30 pm

par13del wrote:
Unfortunately, the damage has already been done, countries who are cancelling AZ orders and deliveries are not doing so because of supply, they are saying they do not want a faulty product and will do without a vaccine until another variant is available, so in essence, the supply shortage has now been moved to other vaccines, none of whom have been meeting their targets or failing to meet their targets to the extent of AZ, whichever version one is most comfortable with.


In Q2 Pfizer/BioNTech is overdelivering. They have been able to speed up the proces and are producing vaccines in 60 days instead of 110 days and Moderna is delivering according to plan. And "failing to meet their targets?" Yes, Pfizer and Moderna did a lousy job by "just" been able to deliver 90% of the doses initially planned at the end of Q1. The score of AZ is somewhere upthread....
 
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mercure1
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Fri May 14, 2021 4:46 pm

mercure f-wtcc
 
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Aesma
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Sun May 16, 2021 7:01 am

weeks 17-18 is a bit old, it should look better now.
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lightsaber
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Sun May 16, 2021 5:49 pm

We're starting to see quite a bit of divergence in the EU:
https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/co ... SP~ITA~GRC

It will be interesting to see where vaccine hesitancy kicks in.

Lightsaber
6 months without TV. The best decision of my life.
 
kelval
Posts: 57
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:09 pm

Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Mon May 17, 2021 4:34 pm

Sanofi announces between 95 and 100% efficacity for their new vaccine:
https://www.ladepeche.fr/2021/05/17/enf ... 550076.php (in french)
https://www.sanofi.com/en/our-covid-19- ... nt-vaccine (sorry, this is Sanofi's promotinal stuff but I have a hard time finding sources in english, google keeps on sending me toward french sources)

Sanofi seems to have a working vaccine that cleared phase two. They are starting phase 3 and production immediatly.
Also it seems on par with the most effective vaccines as far as protection goes, wich is a plus.

The good point in my eyes is that it's a recombinant protein-based vaccine, wich scares the vaccine hesitant people a bit less.
I know several families in our neighbourhood (France) that refuse COVID vaccines because they don't want a mRNA shot, neither for them nor their kids. I just gave up even talking about vaccines with them, as they become hysteric and completely focused on their mRNA refusal. They are under 50 so not good candidates for Johnsson either.
Last edited by kelval on Mon May 17, 2021 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
CranfordBoy
Posts: 26
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:42 pm

Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Tue May 18, 2021 2:50 pm

kelval wrote:
Sanofi announces between 95 and 100% efficacity for their new vaccine:
https://www.ladepeche.fr/2021/05/17/enf ... 550076.php (in french)
https://www.sanofi.com/en/our-covid-19- ... nt-vaccine (sorry, this is Sanofi's promotinal stuff but I have a hard time finding sources in english, google keeps on sending me toward french sources)

Sanofi seems to have a working vaccine that cleared phase two. They are starting phase 3 and production immediatly.
Also it seems on par with the most effective vaccines as far as protection goes, wich is a plus.

The good point in my eyes is that it's a recombinant protein-based vaccine, wich scares the vaccine hesitant people a bit less.
I know several families in our neighbourhood (France) that refuse COVID vaccines because they don't want a mRNA shot, neither for them nor their kids. I just gave up even talking about vaccines with them, as they become hysteric and completely focused on their mRNA refusal. They are under 50 so not good candidates for Johnsson either.


Good news. In the interests of accuracy it should be pointed out that this is a joint development between GSK and Sanofi. Perhaps that's why googling Sanofi leads only to French websites.

https://www.gsk.com/en-gb/media/press-r ... e-2-trial/

Sanofi provides the recombinant antigen and Glaxo the adjuvant. A technique previously used in flu vaccines.
 
kelval
Posts: 57
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:09 pm

Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed May 19, 2021 6:09 am

Thank you!

I also hope the vaccine craze is behind us, and that the fact that GSK is based in GB and Sanofi in Europe will not create any drama like the AZ fiasco.
 
marcelh
Posts: 1359
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed May 19, 2021 6:26 am

kelval wrote:
Thank you!

I also hope the vaccine craze is behind us, and that the fact that GSK is based in GB and Sanofi in Europe will not create any drama like the AZ fiasco.


AZ is based in the UK and Europe (Sweden)….
 
JJJ
Posts: 4037
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed May 19, 2021 7:32 am

Spain just settled on giving all people under 60 with an AZ first shot (like my wife) a Pfizer 2nd shot starting June 1st.

(Source in Spanish)
https://www.google.com/amp/s/elpais.com ... utType=amp
 
sabenapilot
Topic Author
Posts: 3690
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed May 19, 2021 8:34 am

JJJ wrote:
Spain just settled on giving all people under 60 with an AZ first shot (like my wife) a Pfizer 2nd shot starting June 1st.

(Source in Spanish)
https://www.google.com/amp/s/elpais.com ... utType=amp


Indeed, like previously said: A-Z is dead in the EU as from the end of this month.
Even the required follow up shots are now increasingly being given with competing vaccines like here in Spain: what a complete humiliation for 'the oxford vaccine' to be replaced by other products right in the middle of its campaign even for those who were still supposed to receive a second shot of it.
 
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Aesma
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed May 19, 2021 9:03 am

Today France starts "opening". It wasn't really closed, but restaurants have been shut down for 6 months, as well as all cultural places (cinemas, theatres, museums). Non essential shops have been closed more recently.

Being fully vaccinated, I'm going to a restaurant for lunch, and to the cinema tonight. Being vaccinated isn't a requirement, instead you can only eat outside, and cinemas etc. are opened with a third of their capacity, but I would probably not go if I wasn't vaccinated, it would suck to catch COVID at this stage.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
DNDTUF
Posts: 53
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:03 pm

Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed May 19, 2021 10:01 am

I've just booked my second vaccine for the first week of June in France. I got my first dose (Astra Zeneca) when I was back in the UK in March, having been stuck there since Christmas. (I accompanied my mum to the doctor and he asked if I would like to get vaccinated at the same time. Why not ?) On the advice of my GP in France, I've booked an appointment for the Pfizer vaccine for my second dose as AZ is banned in France for under 55s. I was hoping they would introduce a waiver form so that I could get two doses of the same vaccine, but combining both shouldn't be too troublesome. And I didn't want to pay nearly £2000 for hotel quarantine to go back to Scotland for the second dose!!

I'm planning on meeting some friends for a beer tonight, my first time in a bar since the end of October! If it looks too busy or unsafe (given the rather lax approach to lockdown/mask wearing here) I might not bother...
Nemo me impune lacessit
 
User avatar
SomebodyInTLS
Posts: 1927
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:31 pm

Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed May 19, 2021 1:32 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Spain just settled on giving all people under 60 with an AZ first shot (like my wife) a Pfizer 2nd shot starting June 1st.

(Source in Spanish)
https://www.google.com/amp/s/elpais.com ... utType=amp


Indeed, like previously said: A-Z is dead in the EU as from the end of this month.
Even the required follow up shots are now increasingly being given with competing vaccines like here in Spain: what a complete humiliation for 'the oxford vaccine' to be replaced by other products right in the middle of its campaign even for those who were still supposed to receive a second shot of it.


My wife commented yesterday that we suddenly stopped hearing about an Oxford virus on BBC a few weeks ago, about the same time they started discussing this "AstraZenica" thing which seems to be having certain problems... ;)
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
CranfordBoy
Posts: 26
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:42 pm

Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed May 19, 2021 2:11 pm

DNDTUF wrote:
I've just booked my second vaccine for the first week of June in France. I got my first dose (Astra Zeneca) when I was back in the UK in March, having been stuck there since Christmas. (I accompanied my mum to the doctor and he asked if I would like to get vaccinated at the same time. Why not ?) On the advice of my GP in France, I've booked an appointment for the Pfizer vaccine for my second dose as AZ is banned in France for under 55s. I was hoping they would introduce a waiver form so that I could get two doses of the same vaccine, but combining both shouldn't be too troublesome. And I didn't want to pay nearly £2000 for hotel quarantine to go back to Scotland for the second dose!!

I'm planning on meeting some friends for a beer tonight, my first time in a bar since the end of October! If it looks too busy or unsafe (given the rather lax approach to lockdown/mask wearing here) I might not bother...


Another poster above has said that Spain is also giving 1st and 2nd doses of different vaccines. Have I missed the news that the EMA has authorised this as safe and effective? Or that the medical regulator anywhere in any country has completed clinical trials that validate such an approach? I know that clinical trials are underway in the UK to establish this (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-56730526) but the only data published to date is a suggestion that vaccine mixing leads to an increased risk of short term side effects and that these may be worse in younger people.

As far as I know there have been no reported cases of clotting after receiving a second dose of AZ. SInce AZ is available in France (and elsewhere in Europe) it seems odd to not give a second dose if the recipient has had no issues with the first, especially if the alternative is an unproven strategy. As I say, apologies if I've missed some news along the way.
 
CranfordBoy
Posts: 26
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:42 pm

Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed May 19, 2021 2:14 pm

Sorry, forgot to provide a link to report of increased short term side effects of vaccine mixing:

https://www.ft.com/content/b236171f-f47 ... 2c81e0e49e
 
JJJ
Posts: 4037
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed May 19, 2021 2:41 pm

CranfordBoy wrote:
DNDTUF wrote:
I've just booked my second vaccine for the first week of June in France. I got my first dose (Astra Zeneca) when I was back in the UK in March, having been stuck there since Christmas. (I accompanied my mum to the doctor and he asked if I would like to get vaccinated at the same time. Why not ?) On the advice of my GP in France, I've booked an appointment for the Pfizer vaccine for my second dose as AZ is banned in France for under 55s. I was hoping they would introduce a waiver form so that I could get two doses of the same vaccine, but combining both shouldn't be too troublesome. And I didn't want to pay nearly £2000 for hotel quarantine to go back to Scotland for the second dose!!

I'm planning on meeting some friends for a beer tonight, my first time in a bar since the end of October! If it looks too busy or unsafe (given the rather lax approach to lockdown/mask wearing here) I might not bother...


Another poster above has said that Spain is also giving 1st and 2nd doses of different vaccines. Have I missed the news that the EMA has authorised this as safe and effective?


EMA approves individual vaccines, the actual strategy is left to member states. Specifically for Spain the study which underpins the decision is this one:

https://studies.epidemixs.org/en/proyec ... cine-dose/
https://www.lamoncloa.gob.es/serviciosd ... fizer.aspx

There's been some criticism because it only pitted AZ dose 1 and no 2nd dose vs AZ dose 1 and Pfizer dose 2 (so, no AZ 1 and 2) but the goal of the study was to study possible secondary effects of a followup dose of Pfizer after having received AZ.

Whether the immune response is better, equal or worse than 2xAZ is not the scope of the study.
 
sabenapilot
Topic Author
Posts: 3690
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed May 19, 2021 3:24 pm

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
My wife commented yesterday that we suddenly stopped hearing about an Oxford virus on BBC a few weeks ago, about the same time they started discussing this "AstraZenica" thing which seems to be having certain problems... ;)


Well, I haven't done any statistical study to underpin this interesting observation of your wife, but accidentally it coincides with my own feelings too when following the British media.

The very frequent use of the term 'oxford vaccine' which was routinely used by politicians and popular British media outlets alike as a synonym for very first Covid-19 vaccine developed in the UK and globally produced by A-Z (albeit with much troubles ramping up) now seems to have all but died out: it's back to just calling it by its manufacturer's name now that it seems to be all but dropped by most developed nations as there is growing evidence it isn't such a sharp pencil after all.

I'd be very interested to hear from Gavin Williamson if he still genuinely thinks the UK is 'a much better country than every single one of them', because of having developed what now is all but officially a second class vaccine just a few weeks earlier than some of those other and by his own accounts 'far worse countries' which clearly managed to develop technologically far more advanced mRNA vaccines almost simulateneously to the UK.
 
marcelh
Posts: 1359
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed May 19, 2021 3:43 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
SomebodyInTLS wrote:
My wife commented yesterday that we suddenly stopped hearing about an Oxford virus on BBC a few weeks ago, about the same time they started discussing this "AstraZenica" thing which seems to be having certain problems... ;)


Well, I haven't done any statistical study to underpin this interesting observation of your wife, but accidentally it coincides with my own feelings too when following the British media.

The very frequent use of the term 'oxford vaccine' which was routinely used by politicians and popular British media outlets alike as a synonym for very first Covid-19 vaccine developed in the UK and globally produced by A-Z (albeit with much troubles ramping up) now seems to have all but died out: it's back to just calling it by its manufacturer's name now that it seems to be all but dropped by most developed nations as there is growing evidence it isn't such a sharp pencil after all.

I'd be very interested to hear from Gavin Williamson if he still genuinely thinks the UK is 'a much better country than every single one of them', because of having developed what now is all but officially a second class vaccine just a few weeks earlier than some of those other and by his own accounts 'far worse countries' which clearly managed to develop technologically far more advanced mRNA vaccines almost simulateneously to the UK.

I also see a change of tone (or a deafening silence) from some members at this forum.

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