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AirbusCheerlead
Posts: 197
Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2010 4:20 pm

Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed May 19, 2021 5:37 pm

CranfordBoy wrote:
DNDTUF wrote:
I've just booked my second vaccine for the first week of June in France. I got my first dose (Astra Zeneca) when I was back in the UK in March, having been stuck there since Christmas. (I accompanied my mum to the doctor and he asked if I would like to get vaccinated at the same time. Why not ?) On the advice of my GP in France, I've booked an appointment for the Pfizer vaccine for my second dose as AZ is banned in France for under 55s. I was hoping they would introduce a waiver form so that I could get two doses of the same vaccine, but combining both shouldn't be too troublesome. And I didn't want to pay nearly £2000 for hotel quarantine to go back to Scotland for the second dose!!

I'm planning on meeting some friends for a beer tonight, my first time in a bar since the end of October! If it looks too busy or unsafe (given the rather lax approach to lockdown/mask wearing here) I might not bother...


Another poster above has said that Spain is also giving 1st and 2nd doses of different vaccines. Have I missed the news that the EMA has authorised this as safe and effective? Or that the medical regulator anywhere in any country has completed clinical trials that validate such an approach? I know that clinical trials are underway in the UK to establish this (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-56730526) but the only data published to date is a suggestion that vaccine mixing leads to an increased risk of short term side effects and that these may be worse in younger people.

As far as I know there have been no reported cases of clotting after receiving a second dose of AZ. SInce AZ is available in France (and elsewhere in Europe) it seems odd to not give a second dose if the recipient has had no issues with the first, especially if the alternative is an unproven strategy. As I say, apologies if I've missed some news along the way.


From the UK yellow card reporting there are unfortunately a very small numbers of occurance after the second dose. I don't remember exactly were I read it first, but I found a link confirming what I said:
Till 21 April, the regulator had received Yellow Card reports of 209 cases of major thromboembolic events (blood clots) with thrombocytopenia (low platelet counts) in the country on receiving AstraZeneca’s vaccine. Four cases were noted on administering the second dose.

https://www.pharmaceutical-technology.c ... a-vaccine/


There must be newer numbers available.
From the numbers I have seen, the occurance after the 2nd dose is much lower than the already low occurance after the first dose.

While the EMA has confirmed that there is a link between AZ and major thromboembolic events after the 1st dose, I don't know if the numbers of cases after the second dose are high enough to show a link with the vaccine or if the events are in line with the number expected to occur in the general population.

Best regards and stay safe,
Jonas
 
AirbusCheerlead
Posts: 197
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed May 19, 2021 5:54 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Spain just settled on giving all people under 60 with an AZ first shot (like my wife) a Pfizer 2nd shot starting June 1st.

(Source in Spanish)
https://www.google.com/amp/s/elpais.com ... utType=amp


Indeed, like previously said: A-Z is dead in the EU as from the end of this month.
Even the required follow up shots are now increasingly being given with competing vaccines like here in Spain: what a complete humiliation for 'the oxford vaccine' to be replaced by other products right in the middle of its campaign even for those who were still supposed to receive a second shot of it.


I think that the brilliant scientists that developed the "Oxford vaccine" feel really proud that they created a vaccine that already has saved many 10-thousands of lives all over the world and will save many more in the coming month. Hence what you call "a complete humiliation" shouldn't bother them much.

Also while true that some EU-countries have trouble administrating the AZ vaccine, others (like Germany) are still administrating close to a million dose weekly.
https://impfdashboard.de/ and RKI
I'm quite confident that some EU-countries will keep administrating AZ well beyond end of Mai.

Best regards and stay safe,
Jonas
 
tommy1808
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Thu May 20, 2021 5:17 am

AirbusCheerlead wrote:
Also while true that some EU-countries have trouble administrating the AZ vaccine, others (like Germany) are still administrating close to a million dose weekly.


That is the result of a massive marketing campaign. And by marketing i mean lifting essentially all restrictions on vaccinated and making AZ available to whoever wants to without any concern for vaccination priorities.

best regards
Thomas
 
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seahawk
Posts: 10417
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Thu May 20, 2021 7:13 am

AirbusCheerlead wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Spain just settled on giving all people under 60 with an AZ first shot (like my wife) a Pfizer 2nd shot starting June 1st.

(Source in Spanish)
https://www.google.com/amp/s/elpais.com ... utType=amp


Indeed, like previously said: A-Z is dead in the EU as from the end of this month.
Even the required follow up shots are now increasingly being given with competing vaccines like here in Spain: what a complete humiliation for 'the oxford vaccine' to be replaced by other products right in the middle of its campaign even for those who were still supposed to receive a second shot of it.


I think that the brilliant scientists that developed the "Oxford vaccine" feel really proud that they created a vaccine that already has saved many 10-thousands of lives all over the world and will save many more in the coming month. Hence what you call "a complete humiliation" shouldn't bother them much.

Also while true that some EU-countries have trouble administrating the AZ vaccine, others (like Germany) are still administrating close to a million dose weekly.
https://impfdashboard.de/ and RKI
I'm quite confident that some EU-countries will keep administrating AZ well beyond end of Mai.

Best regards and stay safe,
Jonas


And AZ is again missing their own predictions for deliveries in the second quarter.
 
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Aesma
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Thu May 20, 2021 12:23 pm

Thrombosis is relatively common but "thromboembolic events (blood clots) with thrombocytopenia (low platelet counts)" is very rare and isn't treated the same, which is why it proved a killer. So if second doses of AZ cause it that should be demonstrable.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 5649
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Thu May 20, 2021 4:10 pm

There is an odd and irrational dynamic in the drugs which plays out with any number of medical problems. Drug A is 64% effective and costs less than $xx. Drug B is 66% effective but costs $xxxx. Given our insurance and other economic policies drug B drives drug A out of business, and then drug B can charge $xxxxx. This means that huge amounts of a nations medical budget goes to people with good insurance, and there is less and less money to rationally ration out so that everyone get medical coverage and many more people die or receive nothing.

AZ is a very good vaccine, but others are very very good but more expensive.
 
Olddog
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Thu May 20, 2021 4:46 pm

I suppose that the vaccine, whatever the producer, is free for all citizens as in France, no?
 
JJJ
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Thu May 20, 2021 6:33 pm

Olddog wrote:
I suppose that the vaccine, whatever the producer, is free for all citizens as in France, no?


I don't think any European country (including the UK here) is charging for vaccines.

The other side of that is you'll get what you're offered. No shopping around.
 
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Aesma
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Fri May 21, 2021 5:45 am

In France you can choose the vaccine. And it has now been announced that from the 1st of June there won't be any more restrictions, anyone can be vaccinated. It's already possible today but only if you find a free spot for tomorrow.

frmrCapCadet : here in France our centralized social security deals with drug manufacturers and negotiates prices, what you're describing doesn't happen and can't happen. If a drug maker is trying to squeeze public coffers, the drug won't be sold in the country, it's simple. Recently there are challenges due to some drugs being very expensive (custom cancer drugs for example) but for example there is no issue with insulin. The exact same one drug that has jumped price 7000% in the US has still the same cheap price here in France (and is free for the end user).

edit : when I say you can choose, it's not totally the case, since you can't get AZ if you're under 55. Doing like in Germany with people signing a waiver to get it has been considered but judged unfeasible legally.
 
marcelh
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed May 26, 2021 12:13 pm

"EU seeks huge fine for AstraZeneca vaccine delays"

https://www.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-eu-penalty/eu-seeks-huge-fine-for-astrazeneca-vaccine-delays-idUSS8N2LE04O

Accoring to the ECDC Vaccine Tracker, AstraZenica has just delivered 53.2 million doses to the EU by today (May 26th), so still very far away from the promised 100 million by the end of June....

https://vaccinetracker.ecdc.europa.eu/public/extensions/COVID-19/vaccine-tracker.html#distribution-tab
 
tommy1808
Posts: 14915
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed May 26, 2021 12:15 pm

marcelh wrote:
"EU seeks huge fine for AstraZeneca vaccine delays"

https://www.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-eu-penalty/eu-seeks-huge-fine-for-astrazeneca-vaccine-delays-idUSS8N2LE04O

Accoring to the ECDC Vaccine Tracker, AstraZenica has just delivered 53.2 million doses to the EU by today (May 26th), so still very far away from the promised 100 million by the end of June....

https://vaccinetracker.ecdc.europa.eu/public/extensions/COVID-19/vaccine-tracker.html#distribution-tab


wow... that is almost 14% of what they claimed they could deliver, and signed a contract for....

best regards
Thomas
 
marcelh
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jun 01, 2021 6:04 pm

An update from the Netherlands:
According to the Dutch Minister of Health, Welfare and Sport, all adults can be vaccinated at least once by July 15th and fully vaccinated before September 1st.
https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2021/05/by-september-everyone-will-have-been-fully-vaccinated-minister/

And according to a survey, more than 80 percent of the population of 16 years and older is or wants to be vaccinated. So little hesitancy over here. By the end of June, some 15.4 million doses will be delivered and 14.7 million doses administered.
https://coronadashboard.rijksoverheid.nl/landelijk/vaccinaties in Dutch.

Not that bad, considering the UK will have offered a first dose by the end of July
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-55274833
 
JJJ
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed Jun 02, 2021 10:42 am

sabenapilot wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Spain just settled on giving all people under 60 with an AZ first shot (like my wife) a Pfizer 2nd shot starting June 1st.

(Source in Spanish)
https://www.google.com/amp/s/elpais.com ... utType=amp


Indeed, like previously said: A-Z is dead in the EU as from the end of this month.
Even the required follow up shots are now increasingly being given with competing vaccines like here in Spain: what a complete humiliation for 'the oxford vaccine' to be replaced by other products right in the middle of its campaign even for those who were still supposed to receive a second shot of it.


It's been a while after this, but it merits an update.

Curiously enough, Over 90% of those having received a 1st AZ shot have chosen to get the 2nd shot with AZ instead of the Government recommendation of a follow-up Pfizer shot.

https://elpais.com/sociedad/2021-05-26/ ... dosis.html

Probably a case of the devil you know, but proves how far off analysts forecasting mass vaccine hesitancy after the AZ spat were.
 
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par13del
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Wed Jun 02, 2021 12:12 pm

Well it will soon be a thing of the past as the only vaccines being purchased now are any vaccine not named AZ, so by the end of the year, it will either be all onboard or back to vaccine hesitancy and not AZ hesitancy.
 
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BaconButty
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:01 pm

"The judge ordered delivery of 80.2 million doses by 27 September 2021. To date, the Company has supplied more than 70 million doses to the European Union and will substantially exceed 80.2 million doses by the end of June 2021."
:lol:

https://www.astrazeneca.com/content/ast ... urope.html
 
tommy1808
Posts: 14915
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:13 pm

BaconButty wrote:
"The judge ordered delivery of 80.2 million doses by 27 September 2021. To date, the Company has supplied more than 70 million doses to the European Union and will substantially exceed 80.2 million doses by the end of June 2021."
:lol:

https://www.astrazeneca.com/content/ast ... urope.html


wow... only 219.8 million doses short of what they sold...

best regards
Thomas
 
marcelh
Posts: 2191
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:01 pm

BaconButty wrote:
"The judge ordered delivery of 80.2 million doses by 27 September 2021. To date, the Company has supplied more than 70 million doses to the European Union and will substantially exceed 80.2 million doses by the end of June 2021."
:lol:

https://www.astrazeneca.com/content/ast ... urope.html


According to the ECDC vaccine tracker AstraZenica has delivered 65,955,815 doses as of June 18th.
https://vaccinetracker.ecdc.europa.eu/public/extensions/COVID-19/vaccine-tracker.html#distribution-tab

By delivering 80.2 million doses by the end of June, they are still just under 20 million short of what AstraZenica has promised to deliver by the end of Q2, which is a far cry from the original plan. Still not able to meet the lowered expectations; great example of FUBAR.

Not that it matter a lot: Pfizer and Moderna are delivering huge amounts of safe vaccines, which means for the Netherlands everyone of 20 years and older can make an appointment to be vaccinated and I expect everyone of 18 years and older will be fully vaccinated by August (five weeks between first and second jab). According to surveys, over 80 percent of all adults is already or wants to be vaccinated, so a decent protection level should be possible.

How does this compare to the UK? According to the BBC https://www.bbc.com/news/health-55045639

“By 19 July, it's hoped that all adults will have had their first dose and everyone aged over 50 - and the clinically extremely vulnerable - will have been offered their second.”

And with regards to the second dose:

“Making the announcement for England, Health Secretary Matt Hancock said the NHS would contact people to bring forward their appointments.
You can also rearrange an appointment yourself. You can do this online, or by calling 119.
Your second dose will be the same type as your first.

Second doses are also being brought forward in Scotland. Anyone whose second appointment is more than eight weeks after their first can rebook it via the NHS Inform website.

In Northern Ireland, the interval between doses has been reduced from 10 weeks to six weeks for appointments scheduled after 14 June 2021.

In Wales, the government says vaccination clinics "are accelerating second doses", and that people will be contacted by their local health boards in due course.”


So the UK may have had a head start, somehow they lost momentum…
 
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SQ22
Moderator
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Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:42 pm

Please remember to provide links to your sources when stating facts. Thanks.
 
chimborazo
Posts: 473
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:51 pm

Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:09 pm

marcelh wrote:
BaconButty wrote:
"The judge ordered delivery of 80.2 million doses by 27 September 2021. To date, the Company has supplied more than 70 million doses to the European Union and will substantially exceed 80.2 million doses by the end of June 2021."
:lol:

https://www.astrazeneca.com/content/ast ... urope.html


According to the ECDC vaccine tracker AstraZenica has delivered 65,955,815 doses as of June 18th.
https://vaccinetracker.ecdc.europa.eu/public/extensions/COVID-19/vaccine-tracker.html#distribution-tab

By delivering 80.2 million doses by the end of June, they are still just under 20 million short of what AstraZenica has promised to deliver by the end of Q2, which is a far cry from the original plan. Still not able to meet the lowered expectations; great example of FUBAR.

Not that it matter a lot: Pfizer and Moderna are delivering huge amounts of safe vaccines, which means for the Netherlands everyone of 20 years and older can make an appointment to be vaccinated and I expect everyone of 18 years and older will be fully vaccinated by August (five weeks between first and second jab). According to surveys, over 80 percent of all adults is already or wants to be vaccinated, so a decent protection level should be possible.

How does this compare to the UK? According to the BBC https://www.bbc.com/news/health-55045639

“By 19 July, it's hoped that all adults will have had their first dose and everyone aged over 50 - and the clinically extremely vulnerable - will have been offered their second.”

And with regards to the second dose:

“Making the announcement for England, Health Secretary Matt Hancock said the NHS would contact people to bring forward their appointments.
You can also rearrange an appointment yourself. You can do this online, or by calling 119.
Your second dose will be the same type as your first.

Second doses are also being brought forward in Scotland. Anyone whose second appointment is more than eight weeks after their first can rebook it via the NHS Inform website.

In Northern Ireland, the interval between doses has been reduced from 10 weeks to six weeks for appointments scheduled after 14 June 2021.

In Wales, the government says vaccination clinics "are accelerating second doses", and that people will be contacted by their local health boards in due course.”


So the UK may have had a head start, somehow they lost momentum…


68 million people versus a tad over 17MM will play a part in this.

NL are part of the EU… the EU procured vaccines for the bloc. All countries in Europe should be working together so they dose at the same relative rate.
 
chimborazo
Posts: 473
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:51 pm

Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:14 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
BaconButty wrote:
"The judge ordered delivery of 80.2 million doses by 27 September 2021. To date, the Company has supplied more than 70 million doses to the European Union and will substantially exceed 80.2 million doses by the end of June 2021."
:lol:

https://www.astrazeneca.com/content/ast ... urope.html


wow... only 219.8 million doses short of what they sold...

best regards
Thomas


I ordered a new BMW in January and was told it would be 10-12 weeks to delivery- on the order acknowledgement. It was 22 weeks when it arrived. Sadly these things happen. Should I take them to court?
 
marcelh
Posts: 2191
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:26 pm

chimborazo wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
BaconButty wrote:
"The judge ordered delivery of 80.2 million doses by 27 September 2021. To date, the Company has supplied more than 70 million doses to the European Union and will substantially exceed 80.2 million doses by the end of June 2021."
:lol:

https://www.astrazeneca.com/content/ast ... urope.html


wow... only 219.8 million doses short of what they sold...

best regards
Thomas


I ordered a new BMW in January and was told it would be 10-12 weeks to delivery- on the order acknowledgement. It was 22 weeks when it arrived. Sadly these things happen. Should I take them to court?

The delay of your BMW doesn’t cost lives, the incompetence of AZ has….
 
marcelh
Posts: 2191
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:41 pm

chimborazo wrote:
marcelh wrote:
BaconButty wrote:
"The judge ordered delivery of 80.2 million doses by 27 September 2021. To date, the Company has supplied more than 70 million doses to the European Union and will substantially exceed 80.2 million doses by the end of June 2021."
:lol:

https://www.astrazeneca.com/content/ast ... urope.html


According to the ECDC vaccine tracker AstraZenica has delivered 65,955,815 doses as of June 18th.
https://vaccinetracker.ecdc.europa.eu/public/extensions/COVID-19/vaccine-tracker.html#distribution-tab

By delivering 80.2 million doses by the end of June, they are still just under 20 million short of what AstraZenica has promised to deliver by the end of Q2, which is a far cry from the original plan. Still not able to meet the lowered expectations; great example of FUBAR.

Not that it matter a lot: Pfizer and Moderna are delivering huge amounts of safe vaccines, which means for the Netherlands everyone of 20 years and older can make an appointment to be vaccinated and I expect everyone of 18 years and older will be fully vaccinated by August (five weeks between first and second jab). According to surveys, over 80 percent of all adults is already or wants to be vaccinated, so a decent protection level should be possible.

How does this compare to the UK? According to the BBC https://www.bbc.com/news/health-55045639

“By 19 July, it's hoped that all adults will have had their first dose and everyone aged over 50 - and the clinically extremely vulnerable - will have been offered their second.”

And with regards to the second dose:

“Making the announcement for England, Health Secretary Matt Hancock said the NHS would contact people to bring forward their appointments.
You can also rearrange an appointment yourself. You can do this online, or by calling 119.
Your second dose will be the same type as your first.

Second doses are also being brought forward in Scotland. Anyone whose second appointment is more than eight weeks after their first can rebook it via the NHS Inform website.

In Northern Ireland, the interval between doses has been reduced from 10 weeks to six weeks for appointments scheduled after 14 June 2021.

In Wales, the government says vaccination clinics "are accelerating second doses", and that people will be contacted by their local health boards in due course.”


So the UK may have had a head start, somehow they lost momentum…


68 million people versus a tad over 17MM will play a part in this.

It’s 68 million (UK) versus 430 million (EU).

NL are part of the EU… the EU procured vaccines for the bloc. All countries in Europe should be working together so they dose at the same relative rate.

That’s right. Some countries are lagging behind (Bulgaria as an exteme) because of vaccination hesitancy. I’m using the numbers from the Netherlands because they are the easiest for me to collect (ourworldindata has some delay for whatever reason).
 
AirbusCheerlead
Posts: 197
Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2010 4:20 pm

Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:50 pm

    chimborazo wrote:
    tommy1808 wrote:
    BaconButty wrote:
    "The judge ordered delivery of 80.2 million doses by 27 September 2021. To date, the Company has supplied more than 70 million doses to the European Union and will substantially exceed 80.2 million doses by the end of June 2021."
    :lol:

    https://www.astrazeneca.com/content/ast ... urope.html


    wow... only 219.8 million doses short of what they sold...

    best regards
    Thomas


    I ordered a new BMW in January and was told it would be 10-12 weeks to delivery- on the order acknowledgement. It was 22 weeks when it arrived. Sadly these things happen. Should I take them to court?


    This EU link has the ruling (PDF in french, belgian court)
    https://ec.europa.eu/commission/pressco ... IP_21_3090

    The courts ruling actually finds that AstraZeneca has commited a "faute lourde" (I'm no law expert but a quick Google gives me: "gross negligence") and didn't complying with the contract they signed.
    The judge confirmed what many have pointed out in this thread when the contract was published by the EU: AZ by saying they don't have competing obligation and including UK factories in the EU supply chain the should have diverted some UK produced jabs to the EU in order to fulfil their best effort.

    So while the judge's sanction won't have any material consequance on AZ (since AZ will deliver 80 Mio jabs til September 27) the judge confirmed the main point of the EU.

    Best regards and stay safe,
    Jonas
     
    sabenapilot
    Topic Author
    Posts: 3802
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    Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

    Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:50 pm

    Belgian news website knack has the full court verdict (In French) and an in-depth analysis (in Dutch):

    https://www.knack.be/nieuws/europa/een- ... 48441.html

    Their detailed analysis in a nutshell:
    the court sits with the EC in that A-Z broke its contract and did not deliver its best efforts, but it does not want to order A-Z to deliver the full order, because:
    1- it can not estimate A-Zs future output;
    2- it does not want to create additional conflicts with other contracts

    In other words: A-Z is found guilty, but the court understands it can not be forced to deliver what it may not have, so it doesn't bother doing so.
    But to go from there to saying they won like A-Z does, is a hell of a lot of PR spinning: with this verdict in their hands, the road to financial compensations and other punitive sanctions is wide open for the EC of course.
     
    chimborazo
    Posts: 473
    Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:51 pm

    Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

    Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:07 pm

    marcelh wrote:
    chimborazo wrote:
    tommy1808 wrote:

    wow... only 219.8 million doses short of what they sold...

    best regards
    Thomas


    I ordered a new BMW in January and was told it would be 10-12 weeks to delivery- on the order acknowledgement. It was 22 weeks when it arrived. Sadly these things happen. Should I take them to court?

    The delay of your BMW doesn’t cost lives, the incompetence of AZ has….


    But this is commercial contracts. Sad to say but the fact lives are involved isn’t actually relevant. If it WAS relevant (and I wish it was) then all governments worldwide should have immediately directed private businesses - pharma of course but any business that can help - to expand and make the resources available to deliver the maximum possible delivery of vaccines. So supply chain right through to delivery. There is of course a lead time on building the equipment and infrastructure but it should have been done on a “war footing”. The failure here is not on commercial organisations but in the respective country governments to make that happen. They are ALL guilty of not doing enough to make this happen.

    The first priority of any government is safety and security of its citizens. That should have driven governments to direct ALL possible resources to making vaccines.
     
    tommy1808
    Posts: 14915
    Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

    Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

    Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:11 am

    chimborazo wrote:
    tommy1808 wrote:
    BaconButty wrote:
    "The judge ordered delivery of 80.2 million doses by 27 September 2021. To date, the Company has supplied more than 70 million doses to the European Union and will substantially exceed 80.2 million doses by the end of June 2021."
    :lol:

    https://www.astrazeneca.com/content/ast ... urope.html


    wow... only 219.8 million doses short of what they sold...

    best regards
    Thomas


    I ordered a new BMW in January and was told it would be 10-12 weeks to delivery- on the order acknowledgement. It was 22 weeks when it arrived. Sadly these things happen. Should I take them to court?


    If they signed a contract with you stating which of their facilities have nothing else to do than building your car, it is delayed and you find out if was making BMWs for other customer? Yeah.

    best regards
    Thomas
     
    tommy1808
    Posts: 14915
    Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

    Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

    Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:52 am

    sabenapilot wrote:
    Belgian news website knack has the full court verdict (In French) and an in-depth analysis (in Dutch):

    https://www.knack.be/nieuws/europa/een- ... 48441.html

    Their detailed analysis in a nutshell:
    the court sits with the EC in that A-Z broke its contract and did not deliver its best efforts, but it does not want to order A-Z to deliver the full order, because:
    1- it can not estimate A-Zs future output;
    2- it does not want to create additional conflicts with other contracts

    In other words: A-Z is found guilty, but the court understands it can not be forced to deliver what it may not have, so it doesn't bother doing so.
    But to go from there to saying they won like A-Z does, is a hell of a lot of PR spinning: with this verdict in their hands, the road to financial compensations and other punitive sanctions is wide open for the EC of course.


    Part 76 of the ruling also makes very clear that AZs interpretation of the ruling, we only have to deliver 10 Mio odd doses and are done, is wrong. It quite explicitly states that if AZ delivers only 10 million doeses on 26th of July 2021 9 am instead of 15 they instantly have to pay 50 million EUR to the EU.

    best regards
    Thomas
     
    marcelh
    Posts: 2191
    Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

    Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

    Sat Jun 19, 2021 6:43 am

    chimborazo wrote:
    marcelh wrote:
    chimborazo wrote:

    I ordered a new BMW in January and was told it would be 10-12 weeks to delivery- on the order acknowledgement. It was 22 weeks when it arrived. Sadly these things happen. Should I take them to court?

    The delay of your BMW doesn’t cost lives, the incompetence of AZ has….


    But this is commercial contracts. Sad to say but the fact lives are involved isn’t actually relevant. If it WAS relevant (and I wish it was) then all governments worldwide should have immediately directed private businesses - pharma of course but any business that can help - to expand and make the resources available to deliver the maximum possible delivery of vaccines. So supply chain right through to delivery. There is of course a lead time on building the equipment and infrastructure but it should have been done on a “war footing”. The failure here is not on commercial organisations but in the respective country governments to make that happen. They are ALL guilty of not doing enough to make this happen.

    The first priority of any government is safety and security of its citizens. That should have driven governments to direct ALL possible resources to making vaccines.


    IMHO the EU did everything they reasonably could have done. People (especially EU critics) tend to forget health care policy is not centalized, but instead is the responsibility of the member states. Negotiations with pharmaceuticals slowed, because the member states had also a say and some member states didn’t want to pay top dollar.

    Something will change to prevent it from happening again. And for the AZ case, the court has made clear AZ has overpromised and underdelivered.
     
    sabenapilot
    Topic Author
    Posts: 3802
    Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

    Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

    Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:22 am

    tommy1808 wrote:
    sabenapilot wrote:
    Belgian news website knack has the full court verdict (In French) and an in-depth analysis (in Dutch):

    https://www.knack.be/nieuws/europa/een- ... 48441.html

    Their detailed analysis in a nutshell:
    the court sits with the EC in that A-Z broke its contract and did not deliver its best efforts, but it does not want to order A-Z to deliver the full order, because:
    1- it can not estimate A-Zs future output;
    2- it does not want to create additional conflicts with other contracts

    In other words: A-Z is found guilty, but the court understands it can not be forced to deliver what it may not have, so it doesn't bother doing so.
    But to go from there to saying they won like A-Z does, is a hell of a lot of PR spinning: with this verdict in their hands, the road to financial compensations and other punitive sanctions is wide open for the EC of course.


    Part 76 of the ruling also makes very clear that AZs interpretation of the ruling, we only have to deliver 10 Mio odd doses and are done, is wrong. It quite explicitly states that if AZ delivers only 10 million doeses on 26th of July 2021 9 am instead of 15 they instantly have to pay 50 million EUR to the EU.

    best regards
    Thomas


    Indeed, it is explicitly mentioned further down in the court's extensive verdict how much and when exacly the court wants A-Z to deliver a limited number of additional doses, despite A-Z coming up with a suggestion of their own based on just the first lines of the verdict in their much tooted press release, so either:
    1- they do not understand the verdict and still live in their own fantasy world
    2- they deliverately spread wrong information to their stakeholders
    In either case, it tells something about A-Z's management and style...
    I think this company is in urgent need of being taken to the cleaners by the EC.
     
    sabenapilot
    Topic Author
    Posts: 3802
    Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

    Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

    Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:30 am

    Meanwhile, others are also weighing in with their in-depth analysis:

    https://www.politico.eu/article/court-r ... oth-sides/

    While AstraZeneca keeps pointing to the limited number of additional doses they were ordered to deliver by the Brussels court, this case was never really about the doses. The Commission’s case was about proving AstraZeneca was wrong. Here, the EU succeeded and Friday's ruling was a vindication for von der Leyen.

    The one clear loser Friday was AstraZeneca CEO Pascal Soriot, who had insisted earlier this year in La Repubblica that the company’s delivery schedule from the contract was just a best estimate rather than a hard commitment and that the company had made its “best reasonable efforts” to do so.

    Not so, said the court.

    "A marginal examination of this file reveals that in doing so, AstraZeneca has not made its Best Reasonable Efforts to manufacture and deliver part of the 300 million doses promised in the expected deadlines," the court said."It seems [AstraZeneca] freely violated its contractual guarantee," the judge wrote, citing a contract provision clearly stating that AstraZeneca didn't have any other competing contracts to block its obligations to the EU.
     
    AirbusCheerlead
    Posts: 197
    Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2010 4:20 pm

    Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

    Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:11 pm

    sabenapilot wrote:
    tommy1808 wrote:
    sabenapilot wrote:
    Belgian news website knack has the full court verdict (In French) and an in-depth analysis (in Dutch):

    https://www.knack.be/nieuws/europa/een- ... 48441.html

    Their detailed analysis in a nutshell:
    the court sits with the EC in that A-Z broke its contract and did not deliver its best efforts, but it does not want to order A-Z to deliver the full order, because:
    1- it can not estimate A-Zs future output;
    2- it does not want to create additional conflicts with other contracts

    In other words: A-Z is found guilty, but the court understands it can not be forced to deliver what it may not have, so it doesn't bother doing so.
    But to go from there to saying they won like A-Z does, is a hell of a lot of PR spinning: with this verdict in their hands, the road to financial compensations and other punitive sanctions is wide open for the EC of course.


    Part 76 of the ruling also makes very clear that AZs interpretation of the ruling, we only have to deliver 10 Mio odd doses and are done, is wrong. It quite explicitly states that if AZ delivers only 10 million doeses on 26th of July 2021 9 am instead of 15 they instantly have to pay 50 million EUR to the EU.

    best regards
    Thomas


    Indeed, it is explicitly mentioned further down in the court's extensive verdict how much and when exacly the court wants A-Z to deliver a limited number of additional doses, despite A-Z coming up with a suggestion of their own based on just the first lines of the verdict in their much tooted press release, so either:
    1- they do not understand the verdict and still live in their own fantasy world
    2- they deliverately spread wrong information to their stakeholders
    In either case, it tells something about A-Z's management and style...
    I think this company is in urgent need of being taken to the cleaners by the EC.


    AZ is actually right here. Since the EU asked for doses in addition to the 30 Mio delivered in Q1, the delivery schedule and penalty for 50 Mio is clearly stated as on top of the Q1 deliveries and not what has been delivered to date. Since AZ has already delivered about 35 Mio doses in Q2, there are only about 15 Mio to deliver subject to penalties.
    15 million doses by 26 July, at 9 a.m., => already covered
    20 million doses by 23 August, => should already be covered
    15 million doses at 27 September. Still to be delivered.

    While the judge ruled that AZ broke the contract, the remedy would actually allow AZ to stop delivering in june/July/August and deliver the last 15 Mio jabs on September 27th. ..

    Best regards and stay safe,
    Jonas
     
    tommy1808
    Posts: 14915
    Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

    Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

    Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:27 pm

    AirbusCheerlead wrote:
    sabenapilot wrote:
    tommy1808 wrote:

    Part 76 of the ruling also makes very clear that AZs interpretation of the ruling, we only have to deliver 10 Mio odd doses and are done, is wrong. It quite explicitly states that if AZ delivers only 10 million doeses on 26th of July 2021 9 am instead of 15 they instantly have to pay 50 million EUR to the EU.

    best regards
    Thomas


    Indeed, it is explicitly mentioned further down in the court's extensive verdict how much and when exacly the court wants A-Z to deliver a limited number of additional doses, despite A-Z coming up with a suggestion of their own based on just the first lines of the verdict in their much tooted press release, so either:
    1- they do not understand the verdict and still live in their own fantasy world
    2- they deliverately spread wrong information to their stakeholders
    In either case, it tells something about A-Z's management and style...
    I think this company is in urgent need of being taken to the cleaners by the EC.


    AZ is actually right here. Since the EU asked for doses in addition to the 30 Mio delivered in Q1, the delivery schedule and penalty for 50 Mio is clearly stated as on top of the Q1 deliveries and not what has been delivered to date. Since AZ has already delivered about 35 Mio doses in Q2, there are only about 15 Mio to deliver subject to penalties.
    15 million doses by 26 July, at 9 a.m., => already covered


    If that was the case, there would be no need to explicitly use the July 26th deliveries as an example for penalty payments if they deliver less than 15 million doses on that date, since the case would be moot. Or set dates at all.
    The ruling points out that AZs yield was 2.5/3.5th = 71% of planned capacity. 71% of 120 million are 85 million doses. 35 million already delivered, 50 million remaining from Q1. Q2 deliveries are irrelevant. If yields remained stable AZ can expect another order to deliver the remaining 90~95 ish Million doses later.

    "Yeah, you broke the contract and mislead the customer when entering it, but all is good" would be the strangest possible ruling.

    Best regards
    Thomas
     
    AirbusCheerlead
    Posts: 197
    Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2010 4:20 pm

    Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

    Sat Jun 19, 2021 3:35 pm

    tommy1808 wrote:
    AirbusCheerlead wrote:
    sabenapilot wrote:

    Indeed, it is explicitly mentioned further down in the court's extensive verdict how much and when exacly the court wants A-Z to deliver a limited number of additional doses, despite A-Z coming up with a suggestion of their own based on just the first lines of the verdict in their much tooted press release, so either:
    1- they do not understand the verdict and still live in their own fantasy world
    2- they deliverately spread wrong information to their stakeholders
    In either case, it tells something about A-Z's management and style...
    I think this company is in urgent need of being taken to the cleaners by the EC.


    AZ is actually right here. Since the EU asked for doses in addition to the 30 Mio delivered in Q1, the delivery schedule and penalty for 50 Mio is clearly stated as on top of the Q1 deliveries and not what has been delivered to date. Since AZ has already delivered about 35 Mio doses in Q2, there are only about 15 Mio to deliver subject to penalties.
    15 million doses by 26 July, at 9 a.m., => already covered


    If that was the case, there would be no need to explicitly use the July 26th deliveries as an example for penalty payments if they deliver less than 15 million doses on that date, since the case would be moot. Or set dates at all.
    The ruling points out that AZs yield was 2.5/3.5th = 71% of planned capacity. 71% of 120 million are 85 million doses. 35 million already delivered, 50 million remaining from Q1. Q2 deliveries are irrelevant. If yields remained stable AZ can expect another order to deliver the remaining 90~95 ish Million doses later.

    "Yeah, you broke the contract and mislead the customer when entering it, but all is good" would be the strangest possible ruling.

    Best regards
    Thomas


    I agree with you but from my lecture of the verdict it seems to me that the penalties are really moot. Interestingly actual Q2 deliveries are not once mentioned in the judgement.

    At the beginning of the judgement the judge list the EU demand:
    a) in addition to the 30.2 Mio doeses delivered in Q1, 90 Mio doses til end of Q2 or at least 70 Mio.
    a') all 300 Mio doses till end of Q3 or till a date defined by the judge.
    I don't list the other demands b) to e) since the judge ruled in favour of AZ on those.

    Under point 69 the judge says 50 Mio in addition to the 30.2 Mio already delivered. Since under a) Q1 deliveries are explicitly given at 30.2 Mio, I assume that the 30.2 given in point 69 are the Q1 deliveries too. Anything else would be a really bad wording from the judge (and quite a coincidence that Q1 delivers and Q2 deliveries to date both were 30.2 Mio).

    Judgement PDF in french from this EU site:
    https://ec.europa.eu/commission/pressco ... IP_21_3090

    Best regards and stay safe,
    Jonas
     
    Olddog
    Posts: 1653
    Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:41 pm

    Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

    Sat Jun 19, 2021 3:51 pm

    The penalties are a nice thing to argue, but the fact that AZ is probably excluded for future orders is way more expensive.
     
    TokyoImperialPa
    Posts: 91
    Joined: Sun May 23, 2021 1:50 pm

    Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

    Thu Jun 24, 2021 1:23 pm

    I think something that a lot of people here have overlooked is that Astra-Zeneca is part based and listed in India. It may have had something to do with its initial choice, albeit it may have been taken up by governments globally despite it being based for a country like India initally. A-Z isn't the national pharmaceutical company of the UK or Sweden.

    A bigger issue may have been the surprise failure of the vaccine by GSK-Sanofi (France/UK) due to a low dosage during trails. These were basically the two largest pharmaceutical companies in Europe and the global leader in vaccine manufacturing.
     
    GDB
    Posts: 16207
    Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

    Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

    Sun Jun 27, 2021 11:04 am

    A proper in depth look at AZ, the vaccine development, the politics and maybe some on here who have been crapping all over it, might reflect that there was, of course, the usual mischief making from the usual suspects and I don't mean in the EU, rather two nations who seek to undermine it;
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... saving-jab
     
    TokyoImperialPa
    Posts: 91
    Joined: Sun May 23, 2021 1:50 pm

    Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

    Sun Jun 27, 2021 1:34 pm

    GDB wrote:
    A proper in depth look at AZ, the vaccine development, the politics and maybe some on here who have been crapping all over it, might reflect that there was, of course, the usual mischief making from the usual suspects and I don't mean in the EU, rather two nations who seek to undermine it;
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... saving-jab


    The first paragraph is basically what I am trying to say.

    Astra-Zeneca is not just a British-Swedish company, it is also partially listed in India and has a large workforce in India as well. With companies such as Glaxo Smith Kline, Sanofi among others focusing on making vaccines for coronavirus (these companies are the traditional giants of the vaccine world), it may have been a possibility that AZ chose to placate its shareholders (etc...) and make a vaccine aimed at developing countries like India. It would make a lot of money, whilst avoiding competition with more established pharmaceutical companies (Pfizer, Sanofi, etc...) The problem lies in how the other vaccines (mainly the JV between GSK and Sanofi, and GSK and some Canadian company) failed to materialize. The AZ vaccine was probably intended to be distributed in India, not Europe and the wider developed world.
     
    Boeing74741R
    Posts: 1611
    Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:44 am

    Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

    Mon Jun 28, 2021 11:36 am

    GDB wrote:
    A proper in depth look at AZ, the vaccine development, the politics and maybe some on here who have been crapping all over it, might reflect that there was, of course, the usual mischief making from the usual suspects and I don't mean in the EU, rather two nations who seek to undermine it;
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... saving-jab


    Interesting article, thanks for sharing. I do feel for the scientists who helped develop the vaccine.
     
    frmrCapCadet
    Posts: 5649
    Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

    Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

    Mon Jun 28, 2021 12:21 pm

    The dust up with the EU poisoned the entire AZ scene. I still wonder why both the EU and the UK did not have Tsars of Vaccines. The sloppy allocations of drugs and the major snags in production would have been resolved months before it became a major diplomatic failure. The repeated uncertainties would have been dealt with by scientists, production engineers, and regulatory bodies at high levels. The Trump administration did, for the most part, get most of this right, probably despite the White House.
     
    Olddog
    Posts: 1653
    Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:41 pm

    Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

    Mon Jun 28, 2021 1:33 pm

    Because Health is not an EU competence but national competence. The fact that most of the EU 27 asked the EU to deal with the vaccines contracts was new and unexpected so it took time. I guess the lesson is learned for the future.
     
    JJJ
    Posts: 4398
    Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

    Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

    Mon Jun 28, 2021 4:39 pm

    Boeing74741R wrote:
    GDB wrote:
    A proper in depth look at AZ, the vaccine development, the politics and maybe some on here who have been crapping all over it, might reflect that there was, of course, the usual mischief making from the usual suspects and I don't mean in the EU, rather two nations who seek to undermine it;
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... saving-jab


    Interesting article, thanks for sharing. I do feel for the scientists who helped develop the vaccine.


    This is the latest version of the same tripe the British press has been peddling for months when those foreigners just don't get it and mess with "our vaccine". This time with Russians in it.

    Russians, big Pharma, the FDA, EU Commission are all the big bad villains that won't let the world saving vaccine be used.

    It's specially rich to hear pundits complain about big pharma (as if AstraZeneca was a mom&pop pharmacist) or those evil Russians with their vaccine diplomacy (when the UK have been the single most evident example of vaccine nationalism).
     
    GDB
    Posts: 16207
    Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

    Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

    Mon Jun 28, 2021 4:59 pm

    JJJ wrote:
    Boeing74741R wrote:
    GDB wrote:
    A proper in depth look at AZ, the vaccine development, the politics and maybe some on here who have been crapping all over it, might reflect that there was, of course, the usual mischief making from the usual suspects and I don't mean in the EU, rather two nations who seek to undermine it;
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... saving-jab


    Interesting article, thanks for sharing. I do feel for the scientists who helped develop the vaccine.


    This is the latest version of the same tripe the British press has been peddling for months when those foreigners just don't get it and mess with "our vaccine". This time with Russians in it.

    Russians, big Pharma, the FDA, EU Commission are all the big bad villains that won't let the world saving vaccine be used.

    It's specially rich to hear pundits complain about big pharma (as if AstraZeneca was a mom&pop pharmacist) or those evil Russians with their vaccine diplomacy (when the UK have been the single most evident example of vaccine nationalism).


    Translation; Truth hurts, your hysterical response shows that.
    The writer is an award winning specialist in medical matters, the scientists DID intend to make both an effective AND affordable/easy to store vaccine.
    Maybe it's just that some, including certain EU Commisioners, embattled national leaders, simply cannot get their heads around that idea, so alien is it to them.

    I will certainly take the shocked response of an actual EU leading member quoted, at the actions of his own organisation in a pandemic of all times, over any hurt pride, latent anti British feeling etc.
     
    JJJ
    Posts: 4398
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    Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

    Mon Jun 28, 2021 6:23 pm

    GDB wrote:
    JJJ wrote:
    Boeing74741R wrote:

    Interesting article, thanks for sharing. I do feel for the scientists who helped develop the vaccine.


    This is the latest version of the same tripe the British press has been peddling for months when those foreigners just don't get it and mess with "our vaccine". This time with Russians in it.

    Russians, big Pharma, the FDA, EU Commission are all the big bad villains that won't let the world saving vaccine be used.

    It's specially rich to hear pundits complain about big pharma (as if AstraZeneca was a mom&pop pharmacist) or those evil Russians with their vaccine diplomacy (when the UK have been the single most evident example of vaccine nationalism).


    Translation; Truth hurts, your hysterical response shows that.
    The writer is an award winning specialist in medical matters, the scientists DID intend to make both an effective AND affordable/easy to store vaccine.
    Maybe it's just that some, including certain EU Commisioners, embattled national leaders, simply cannot get their heads around that idea, so alien is it to them.

    I will certainly take the shocked response of an actual EU leading member quoted, at the actions of his own organisation in a pandemic of all times, over any hurt pride, latent anti British feeling etc.


    The translation is those scientists made amateur mistakes and then got all hurt when the relevant authorities called them out on it. They should know better but of course they have the whole media machine of a country pampering them.

    And of course it's all about the scientists and not a single word about the nationalistically chosen company (a company that was British first, rather than a specialist vaccine maker) and their deceptive practices which were ok as long as they put Britain first.

    The article is jingoistic BS and presents the opposite of a balanced view.
     
    GDB
    Posts: 16207
    Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

    Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

    Tue Jun 29, 2021 7:33 am

    JJJ wrote:
    GDB wrote:
    JJJ wrote:

    This is the latest version of the same tripe the British press has been peddling for months when those foreigners just don't get it and mess with "our vaccine". This time with Russians in it.

    Russians, big Pharma, the FDA, EU Commission are all the big bad villains that won't let the world saving vaccine be used.

    It's specially rich to hear pundits complain about big pharma (as if AstraZeneca was a mom&pop pharmacist) or those evil Russians with their vaccine diplomacy (when the UK have been the single most evident example of vaccine nationalism).


    Translation; Truth hurts, your hysterical response shows that.
    The writer is an award winning specialist in medical matters, the scientists DID intend to make both an effective AND affordable/easy to store vaccine.
    Maybe it's just that some, including certain EU Commisioners, embattled national leaders, simply cannot get their heads around that idea, so alien is it to them.

    I will certainly take the shocked response of an actual EU leading member quoted, at the actions of his own organisation in a pandemic of all times, over any hurt pride, latent anti British feeling etc.


    The translation is those scientists made amateur mistakes and then got all hurt when the relevant authorities called them out on it. They should know better but of course they have the whole media machine of a country pampering them.

    And of course it's all about the scientists and not a single word about the nationalistically chosen company (a company that was British first, rather than a specialist vaccine maker) and their deceptive practices which were ok as long as they put Britain first.

    The article is jingoistic BS and presents the opposite of a balanced view.


    The Guardian, 'jingoistic BS', well you just proved that while you dislike us, you know nothing about that paper, it's the very opposite of that, left of centre, long pro EU, always anti Brexit, If you bothered to know anything of what/who you are labeling you would know this, a few clicks would tell you.
    It might come as a shock but not all UK papers are those stupid tabloids, not everyone thinks the same, a recent poll here showed 67% of UK citizens supported free surplus vaccines to poorer nations, 75% agreed with the view that 'we are not protected until the whole world is'.
    Thanks for that, what next? Going to tell me Franco was a communist?
    Yes, that is the level of absurdity in your statement.

    This has come up time and again on this thread, get all bent out of shape when even generally pro EU publications report something that spoils the narrative, this article being clearly about the science meeting politics, by specialists not opinion column writers.

    But these are words, you will be aware of the pledges made at the G7? How should we view that? An honest statement of intent, or leaders just saying what they think the world wants to hear?
    In both cases, the UK is no different to the EU and US, in fact the UK pledge matches the entire EU, despite a combined population many times that of the UK;
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-55795297
     
    tommy1808
    Posts: 14915
    Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

    Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

    Tue Jun 29, 2021 8:05 am

    GDB wrote:
    in fact the UK pledge matches the entire EU, despite a combined population many times that of the UK;


    That is a bit apples to oranges, since the EU has pledged 100 Million doses for this year and the UKs pledge is a total, with 25 million this year. And of course members have their own pledges on top.

    best regards
    Thomas
     
    JJJ
    Posts: 4398
    Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

    Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

    Tue Jun 29, 2021 8:29 am

    GDB wrote:
    The article is jingoistic BS and presents the opposite of a balanced view.


    The Guardian, 'jingoistic BS', well you just proved that while you dislike us, you know nothing about that paper, it's the very opposite of that, left of centre, long pro EU, always anti Brexit, If you bothered to know anything of what/who you are labeling you would know this, a few clicks would tell you.
    It might come as a shock but not all UK papers are those stupid tabloids, not everyone thinks the same, a recent poll here showed 67% of UK citizens supported free surplus vaccines to poorer nations, 75% agreed with the view that 'we are not protected until the whole world is'.
    Thanks for that, what next? Going to tell me Franco was a communist?
    Yes, that is the level of absurdity in your statement.

    This has come up time and again on this thread, get all bent out of shape when even generally pro EU publications report something that spoils the narrative, this article being clearly about the science meeting politics, by specialists not opinion column writers.


    This is not a science article, a scientific article does not use emotionally loaded expressions like: "with most of the world sleeping soundly in ignorance" or "well-intentioned folk at Oxford".

    I don't doubt the credentials of Mrs. Boseley or the editorial line of the Guardian, but the article is the worst kind of journalism. Passing off as authority, glossing over major mistakes and leaving aside the bulk of the business and medical decisions that led most of the world to question the vaccine.

    The science part of the vaccine is perfectly fine. My wife had it and so had millions of others. The business side has been horrifically mismanaged and no matter what the Guardian or Mrs. Boseley tells us, you can't separate one from the other.

    I mean, messing up the dose and calendar, using a deliberately small over 60+ group.... that's not something you do when you want your med approved real quick.

    Regulatory bodies such as the Food and Drug Administration in the US don’t like serendipity. They like predictability and no surprises. The oddity of the information sowed doubt at the FDA.


    We're speaking of a world-class research institution partnering with a major Pharma firm missing the mark on basic stuff. The fact the good fellows at the MHRA said they were ok with it (how many of them coming from or being buddies with the same people in Oxford, I wonder?) doesn't mean that the rest of the world suddenly drops the standards just because you're well intentioned.

    They were accused by experts in the US of massaging the data to give a more favourable result.

    The data safety monitoring boardissued a statement accusing them of putting out “potentially misleading” figures.

    It was unprecedented. Data safety monitoring boards don’t normally go public. But they had, with no warning.


    So the problem is not AZ massaged the numbers, it's that the FDA went public!

    Sorry, but this doesn't meet the most basic threshold for a science article. At best it's a feel good piece about the how getting in bed with Oxford was so great in the first place, at worst a hit piece directed towards AZ vaccine critics.
     
    sabenapilot
    Topic Author
    Posts: 3802
    Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

    Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

    Tue Jun 29, 2021 10:38 am

    JJJ wrote:
    We're speaking of a world-class research institution partnering with a major Pharma firm missing the mark on basic stuff. The fact the good fellows at the MHRA said they were ok with it (how many of them coming from or being buddies with the same people in Oxford, I wonder?) doesn't mean that the rest of the world suddenly drops the standards just because you're well intentioned.


    old boys networking is very much an thing of the UK's way of working and much to the general surprise overthere, the rest of the world doesn't just go with it.
    Nothing to do with being anti-British or overly strict like is often being suggested; a procedural approach is key to a legalistic and result driven apparatus in most other western places around the world.
     
    Boeing74741R
    Posts: 1611
    Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:44 am

    Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

    Tue Jun 29, 2021 12:15 pm

    sabenapilot wrote:
    old boys networking is very much an thing of the UK's way of working and much to the general surprise overthere, the rest of the world doesn't just go with it.


    Not really. Whilst I am sure it does go on in places, old boys-style ways of doing business its neither that widespread nor universally popular, hence all the accusations and scrutiny over which companies/individuals that did work for the government was linked to Dominic Cummings, Dido Harding applying to become chief executive of NHS England, etc.

    JJJ wrote:
    This is not a science article, a scientific article does not use emotionally loaded expressions like: "with most of the world sleeping soundly in ignorance"...


    I would say that's an apt description of all of us 17 months ago. Likewise with how quickly most of us thought the pandemic would pass by.
     
    JJJ
    Posts: 4398
    Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

    Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

    Tue Jun 29, 2021 12:29 pm

    Boeing74741R wrote:
    I would say that's an apt description of all of us 17 months ago. Likewise with how quickly most of us thought the pandemic would pass by.


    It's fine literature, but doesn't add anything for a science piece other than setting up the tone of who the good guys are.

    Any pretence of neutrality goes out on the very first paragraph.
     
    sabenapilot
    Topic Author
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    Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

    Re: European Commission Vaccination Strategy News and Discussion Thread

    Tue Jun 29, 2021 3:14 pm

    Boeing74741R wrote:
    sabenapilot wrote:
    old boys networking is very much an thing of the UK's way of working and much to the general surprise overthere, the rest of the world doesn't just go with it.


    Not really. Whilst I am sure it does go on in places, old boys-style ways of doing business its neither that widespread nor universally popular, hence all the accusations and scrutiny over which companies/individuals that did work for the government was linked to Dominic Cummings, Dido Harding applying to become chief executive of NHS England, etc.
    .


    I agree that it used to be largely something from the past in Britain too, but as you know very well, certain events have unfolded in the UK over the past 5 years which have made the country's official policy that of longing for a brighter past: one of the legacy habits that was pushed back to the forefront is precisely the one I've talked about, as also evidenced by the controversy surrounding other similar events you've mentioned above.

    FWIW- it's widely documented how the UK government pushed 'oxford' into A-Zs arms for what would turn out to be a completely botched industrial production of their world saving vaccine, because of all the flagwaving such a combination would allow them to do, hence it can be no surprise that when humbling hickups were encountered, they had to be brushed aside.
    Others around the globe were obviously not willing to do the same and rightfully so.

    The fact a respectable author can not see through all of this is very disappointing and it shows how deeply embedded a certain thinking is in the UK, even amongst those who are not normally associated with this mindset.

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