Interesting development. Dutch broadcaster NOS is reporting that The Netherlands was contacted by UK to co-invest in Halix. Dutch government tried to follow-up with Halix but was rebuffed (extra money was not needed anymore).

https://nos.nl/artikel/2374714-oppositi ... eggen.html

AeroVega wrote:

Interesting development. Dutch broadcaster NOS is reporting that The Netherlands was contacted by UK to co-invest in Halix. Dutch government tried to follow-up with Halix but was rebuffed (extra money was not needed anymore).

https://nos.nl/artikel/2374714-oppositi ... eggen.html

...or rather would have gotten in the way of a shady, secret exclusivity deal.

Best regards
Thomas

"This is not like the butcher: it is not, whoever invests first will be the first to receive vaccines." With that statement by European Commissioner Stella Kyriakides, the battle between AstraZeneca and the European Commission about the supply of corona vaccines started. The EU was outraged that it is getting far fewer vaccines than previously promised, while the British were just getting their promised amounts.

What Kyriakides did not say: London not only stood in line at the proverbial butcher earlier, but was also willing to pull out the wallet and put down hefty sums before it was clear whether the butcher would have meat at all. And the Netherlands had the opportunity to stand next to the British in April and May last year .

Read more here (using Google Translate): https://nos.nl/artikel/2374706-nederlan ... t-mis.html.

marcelh wrote:

So Moderna and Pfizer delivered just over 2.7 million of the 3.0 million planned, while AstraZenica delivered 0.9 million of the 4.6 originally planned which was later reduced to 1.5 million.

Stating AZ "is just a whipping boy for some bruised political/institutionaL egos" is an opinion; missing a delivery target by 80% is a fact and is - at least IMHO - a very good reason to do some whipping.

This is the most rational statement in too long in this thread. Quantified. Missing by 10%, bad, but not horrible. An A-

Making a mark of 20%... Not a passing grade.

I wonder why the production whiff...

Lightsaber

lightsaber wrote:

marcelh wrote:

So Moderna and Pfizer delivered just over 2.7 million of the 3.0 million planned, while AstraZenica delivered 0.9 million of the 4.6 originally planned which was later reduced to 1.5 million.

Stating AZ "is just a whipping boy for some bruised political/institutionaL egos" is an opinion; missing a delivery target by 80% is a fact and is - at least IMHO - a very good reason to do some whipping.

This is the most rational statement in too long in this thread. Quantified. Missing by 10%, bad, but not horrible. An A-

Making a mark of 20%... Not a passing grade.

I wonder why the production whiff...

A lot of us rather wonder why there was no attempt to at least try to redistribute production capacity until threatened with export controls.

lightsaber wrote:

marcelh wrote:

So Moderna and Pfizer delivered just over 2.7 million of the 3.0 million planned, while AstraZenica delivered 0.9 million of the 4.6 originally planned which was later reduced to 1.5 million.

Stating AZ "is just a whipping boy for some bruised political/institutionaL egos" is an opinion; missing a delivery target by 80% is a fact and is - at least IMHO - a very good reason to do some whipping.

This is the most rational statement in too long in this thread. Quantified. Missing by 10%, bad, but not horrible. An A-

Making a mark of 20%... Not a passing grade.

I wonder why the production whiff...

Lightsaber

Whipping boy does not make for more vaccines any faster. All this complaining about AZ, which we all agree failed, is not helping to prevent deaths and save economies. We need real action.

Even if AZ double booked the orders, the EU has not forced AZ to make vaccines for the EU instead of other countries. It's my understanding the EU has not leveraged its ability to legally force a private company to prioritize production for domestic national security purposes. The US equivalent is the Defense Production Act, which the president threatened to use for the vaccines, but it was never acted upon.

For the export bans, I don't believe EU will take possession of the blocked vaccines because there will be legal and reputation risks. I don't think the EU wants to be seen by other countries as a thief and a thug for stealing their purchased vaccines.

To summarize EU's approach towards AZ, it's like squeezing blood from a stone. It won't get vaccines into the arms of Europeans any faster.

max999 wrote:

To summarize EU's approach towards AZ, it's like squeezing blood from a stone. It won't get vaccines into the arms of Europeans any faster.

It will get vaccines into European arms faster than if AZ continued with their export plans. At every turn when export controls have been even hinted at AZ has suddenly found extra doses. I'm sure it's not just a coincidence.

This, in turn, will force AZ to sort out their production issues, in Europe or elsewhere.

Companies should not be rewarded for failure. There are no gold stars for effort here.

lightsaber wrote:

marcelh wrote:

So Moderna and Pfizer delivered just over 2.7 million of the 3.0 million planned, while AstraZenica delivered 0.9 million of the 4.6 originally planned which was later reduced to 1.5 million.

Stating AZ "is just a whipping boy for some bruised political/institutionaL egos" is an opinion; missing a delivery target by 80% is a fact and is - at least IMHO - a very good reason to do some whipping.

This is the most rational statement in too long in this thread. Quantified. Missing by 10%, bad, but not horrible. An A-

Making a mark of 20%... Not a passing grade.

Lightsaber

And just because A-Z somehow decided rather than to spread what it manages to only produce fairly and evenly amongst all of it customers, it focuses on just one of them (I.e. the smallest) in order to fulfill at least its obligations towards them, suddenly makes the UK have no problem in this very strange behaviour.

JJJ wrote:

max999 wrote:

To summarize EU's approach towards AZ, it's like squeezing blood from a stone. It won't get vaccines into the arms of Europeans any faster.

It will get vaccines into European arms faster than if AZ continued with their export plans.
At every turn when export controls have been even hinted at AZ has suddenly found extra doses. I'm sure it's not just a coincidence.
This, in turn, will force AZ to sort out their production issues, in Europe or elsewhere.
Companies should not be rewarded for failure. There are no gold stars for effort here.

Indeed,
From the past we know A-Z clearly has the delivery flexibiility to redistribute (part of) their reduced output; it just happens that it needs to be 'convinced' that it is in their own best self-interest to do so... which is what the EU is now finally doing.
A-Z is a company you can not just talk to (they litterally don't show up even in meetings!), so more powerful means of convincing need to be used.
Making it crystal clear that they won't export a single dose from the EU unless they have fulfulled their obligaiton to the EU first, seems to be such a tool.

max999 wrote:

lightsaber wrote:

marcelh wrote:

So Moderna and Pfizer delivered just over 2.7 million of the 3.0 million planned, while AstraZenica delivered 0.9 million of the 4.6 originally planned which was later reduced to 1.5 million.

Stating AZ "is just a whipping boy for some bruised political/institutionaL egos" is an opinion; missing a delivery target by 80% is a fact and is - at least IMHO - a very good reason to do some whipping.

This is the most rational statement in too long in this thread. Quantified. Missing by 10%, bad, but not horrible. An A-

Making a mark of 20%... Not a passing grade.

I wonder why the production whiff...

Lightsaber

Whipping boy does not make for more vaccines any faster. All this complaining about AZ, which we all agree failed, is not helping to prevent deaths and save economies. We need real action.

Even if AZ double booked the orders, the EU has not forced AZ to make vaccines for the EU instead of other countries. It's my understanding the EU has not leveraged its ability to legally force a private company to prioritize production for domestic national security purposes. The US equivalent is the Defense Production Act, which the president threatened to use for the vaccines, but it was never acted upon.

For the export bans, I don't believe EU will take possession of the blocked vaccines because there will be legal and reputation risks. I don't think the EU wants to be seen by other countries as a thief and a thug for stealing their purchased vaccines.

To summarize EU's approach towards AZ, it's like squeezing blood from a stone. It won't get vaccines into the arms of Europeans any faster.

The EU has made AZ the whipping boy for all their problems. There is no doubt AZ messed up, but there is also no doubt the EU is diverting attention.

Both J&J and AZ should have been in much more mass production than the complicated mRNA vaccines.
The US did do the defence production act for ingredients, it mucked up other vaccine production, in particular in India:
https://www.ft.com/content/7225cbad-852 ... 9b80c39417

The Dutch vaccines are an interesting case. For the UK paid for them, but the EU wants them. Did AZ double charge?

With

The EU is getting 30 million AZ by end of march.
https://www.msn.com/en-au/lifestyle/wel ... NewsSearch

The latest suspension by Germany is certain to drive people away from AZ:
https://www.foxbusiness.com/healthcare/ ... -under-60s

How was it possible for the UK to have such a successful vaccination effort, heavily dependent upon AZ when the EU finds so many problems? Death rates have dropped in the UK, so overall the vaccine is a tremendous success. Something is really up.

Now Coronavirus causes horrid blood clotting. I personally know three people who have had Covid19 induced heart attacks, so it is no joke. The doctors recommend walking before and after the vaccination (before to clear any blood clots present beforehand, after to prevent the start of clots). The way to stop blood clots is movement, so what is happening in the EU creating so many? Spain doesn't seem to have the same issue. I am wondering why the elevated incidence rate.


Lightsaber

lightsaber wrote:

Did AZ double charge?

Yes, they did.

Best regards
Thomas

With your AZ obsession, I was wondering if you were a shareholder lightsaber...

On the bright side here, we got an appointment from the municipality for the rest of our family to get its first vaccine dose, it is indicated pfizer or moderna.

lightsaber wrote:

How was it possible for the UK to have such a successful vaccination effort, heavily dependent upon AZ when the EU finds so many problems? Death rates have dropped in the UK, so overall the vaccine is a tremendous success. Something is really up.
Lightsaber

You may not think it is relevant to this thread but I am certain EU posters will advise you that since Brexit, the UK is not adhering to the same medical standards as the EU, so.....
Only aviation does not seem to be a cliff edge, everything else between the two is.....go figure.

par13del wrote:

lightsaber wrote:

How was it possible for the UK to have such a successful vaccination effort, heavily dependent upon AZ when the EU finds so many problems? Death rates have dropped in the UK, so overall the vaccine is a tremendous success. Something is really up.
Lightsaber

You may not think it is relevant to this thread but I am certain EU posters will advise you that since Brexit, the UK is not adhering to the same medical standards as the EU, so......

the UK-AZ contract would seem to imply that they pretty much still followed EU regulation for pharmaceutical products, and i wouldn´t know anything the UK did so far they could not have done as an EU member, since healthcare is member states responsibility in any case.

best regards
Thomas

lightsaber wrote:

There is no doubt AZ messed up, but there is also no doubt the EU is diverting attention.

Diverting attention from what? I would like to see some facts for this kind of unsubstantiated opinions. Ans please something better than UK-based facts, thank you. I read a lot and living in the EU, I simply don't see the "diversion" you are claiming.

The Dutch vaccines are an interesting case. For the UK paid for them, but the EU wants them. Did AZ double charge?

Weren't this the vaccines found in Italy and according to AZ at least 13 million of the 29 million found were supposed to go to the EU. And AZ has also stated a part of the Dutch production will be delivered to the EU (not known when).

The EU is getting 30 million AZ by end of march.
https://www.msn.com/en-au/lifestyle/wel ... NewsSearch

IS getting or is expecting to get? English may not be my first language, but I still can see the difference between your statement and what has been said by the spokeswoman....
"The Commission spokeswoman told a news conference that AstraZeneca was expected to deliver 29.8 million doses by Wednesday, in line with its revised-down goal."

The latest suspension by Germany is certain to drive people away from AZ:
https://www.foxbusiness.com/healthcare/ ... -under-60s

How was it possible for the UK to have such a successful vaccination effort, heavily dependent upon AZ when the EU finds so many problems? Death rates have dropped in the UK, so overall the vaccine is a tremendous success. Something is really up

Now Coronavirus causes horrid blood clotting. I personally know three people who have had Covid19 induced heart attacks, so it is no joke. The doctors recommend walking before and after the vaccination (before to clear any blood clots present beforehand, after to prevent the start of clots). The way to stop blood clots is movement, so what is happening in the EU creating so many? Spain doesn't seem to have the same issue. I am wondering why the elevated incidence rate.

Lightsaber

It's also interesting to know those severe issues affected mostly women between the age of 20 and 63. It also happened 4-16 days after the vaccination.

lightsaber wrote:

The latest suspension by Germany is certain to drive people away from AZ:
https://www.foxbusiness.com/healthcare/ ... -under-60s

How was it possible for the UK to have such a successful vaccination effort, heavily dependent upon AZ when the EU finds so many problems? Death rates have dropped in the UK, so overall the vaccine is a tremendous success. Something is really up.

Now Coronavirus causes horrid blood clotting. I personally know three people who have had Covid19 induced heart attacks, so it is no joke. The doctors recommend walking before and after the vaccination (before to clear any blood clots present beforehand, after to prevent the start of clots). The way to stop blood clots is movement, so what is happening in the EU creating so many? Spain doesn't seem to have the same issue. I am wondering why the elevated incidence rate.

Lightsaber

Age and gender appear to be the prevailing factors. From the Canadian decision (which, it should be noted, preceded the German and French ones):

“Given the rare but severe VIPIT events reported in Europe, mainly in women under 55 years of age, and a plausible causal mechanistic explanation, NACI has evaluated the benefit/risk ratio comparing this adverse event to the risk of COVID-19 deaths for individuals in Canada in various age strata and considering the supply of alternate COVID-19 vaccines available in Canada (mRNA vaccines).

While awaiting the results from Health Canada inquiries and the overall risk assessment, NACI recommends immediately pausing the use of the AstraZeneca vaccine in all individuals less than 55 years of age in Canada.“

https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/ ... dults.html

The long and short of it is that they’re waiting for more data.

Therefore it seems very premature to ask leading questions like “what is happening in the EU?” (Note the UK has reported AZ-related blood clotting) until we know how many under-50s (particularly women) have been vaccinated in the UK (or Spain) using AZ.

If primarily over-55s have been vaccinated, then of course death rates will go down because they’re the most vulnerable to COVID. They’re also evidently at lower risk of AZ complications.

The Canadian concern is that when AZ starts being used more widely in the 20-40/50 age group, those stats might change (X in 100,000, as opposed to X in 1,000,000). So it’s “pausing” the use of AZ while watching how younger AZ users in other countries such as the UK fare before deciding if it’s safe for Canadians (instead of using Canadians as guinea pigs to establish the rate of incidence).

“Precautionary principle” etc.

If the UK and the EU had both appointed a vaccine czar much of this controversy would have been muted. Such czars are expected to know everything, mostly do nothing (which can take hours a day) and discretely ask pointed questions. They also would be discreetly talking to each other. They would have seen the AZ as potentially on a disaster course early on last year. Had AZ and the various nations vaccine people not been able to head off the disaster the czars would have advised the prime ministers, presidents, etc that a political brouhaha would be developing several months downstream. This would have forced a political solution, and I do not think the current disaster would have happened.

In the US the czar saw Warp Speed through pretty successfully. He was not given authority to oversee delivery of vaccines, and mechanics of getting shots in arms. That went disastrously until the feds were authorized to step in and help.

marcelh wrote:

lightsaber wrote:

There is no doubt AZ messed up, but there is also no doubt the EU is diverting attention.

Diverting attention from what? I would like to see some facts for this kind of unsubstantiated opinions. Ans please something better than UK-based facts, thank you. I read a lot and living in the EU, I simply don't see the "diversion" you are claiming.

Public relations diversion, nit vaccine diversion:
https://news.yahoo.com/news/political-r ... 30030.html
[i]Germany's actions have been interpreted as political both at home and abroad, with opposition leaders calling on Chancellor Angela Merkel to sack Spahn. Officials in major European capitals have given mixed accounts over how the joint move to halt AstraZeneca came about.

The stop on AstraZeneca threatens to hobble Europe's vaccination campaign just as a third wave of infection breaks over the continent, accelerated by more infectious variants.

The bloc has already lagged far behind the United States and former EU member Britain in vaccinating citizens. Hospitals are filling up again, and politicians in several European countries have been forced to consider fresh lockdowns, even as comparable rich countries prepare for normal life to return.
[i]

In my opinion, the EU needs the vaccine.

The on again/off again authorizations are chaos.
e.g., the latest halt is going to multiply the adversion of the "quasi-effective" vaccine.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/compani ... NewsSearch


I can only look in from an outsiders perspective where the EU is demanding their fair share while talking down a vaccine proven to reduce transmission and by looking at UK data, seems incredibly good at that!

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/uk/

The UK only has half their people vaccinated. Most AZ. Yes, mostly imported AZ.

The rest if your reply was splitting semantics, so we'll have to agree to disagree. If AZ is claiming a goal on the day before due date and misses, that is trouble.

For my opinion, I stopped watching TV, I read for data. I look at trends:
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/covi ... untry=~DEU

There are two links I look at each morning, both updated before the London lunch:
https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

The US and in particular UK over-ordered vaccines.
e.g., the USA ordered 300 million AZ doses early:
https://nypost.com/2020/05/21/us-orders ... s-vaccine/

I find it interesting the EU stance is already changing UK vaccine production. e.g. NovaVax was to be finished and filled in the EU, the UK won't make that mistake going forward:
https://theconversation.com/amp/moderna ... own-158196

So from a distance, if AZ can do nothing right (bad vaccine, poor delivery), it is tough to take the fuss seriously Yet lack of this vaccine is literally killing people.

I find it interesting on how Novavax cannot acquire enough ingredients (I posted links earlier) for Novavax, yet they are ramping up UK production. Everyone warned in prior links not negotiating would have consequences. Is that the first obvious sign?

There is the fact the UK funded vaccine development early (enough links upthread) and really funded the Dutch plant. If a negotiated settlement occurs, those in limbo doses free up for everyone.


I have no horse in this race. I solve probems, what is just is. The past tells one how we came to a problem and how to avoid the problem.

Oh, EU regulator is finding no clot risk factor.

https://www.bing.com/amp/s/news.yahoo.c ... 11284.html

My medical friends, in particular those treating Covid19 are watching in horror this AZ spat. This will be one of the most produced vaccines that has, in the real world (numerous links in thread) proven it saves lives.

So the only debate we should be having is production rate and distribution of what us produced. There are billions in the world who certainly feel that the US, UK, and EU are hording the vaccines. Enough so the UN has criticized;
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... thout.html

I hope with the new Pfizer (Germany), Moderna (Switzerland m), J&J (soon at IDT, Sanofi, and Merck), as well as expanding AZ capacity) that the EU has sufficient vaccine.

Let me just say as someone sitting in a country hoping AZ is approved, but not yet available, pointing all the fingers at one vaccine does not make sense. In particular with the UK putting on the stiff upper lip and working to have the three more the funded enter production: NovaVax, Valneva, and CureVac.

I'm sorry, I missed the next EU funded vaccine about to enter distribution, which one is that? I'm quite certain the UK is done with the mistake of funding vaccine production in the EU, but that is just my opinion.

Again, I have no horse in this race. I just read the contracts and came to my own conclusions. For a vaccine sold at cost, AstraZenica made huge mistakes. #1, they never should have sold as cheaply as they did. Throwing money at problems early would have helped.

Lightsaber

lightsaber wrote:

marcelh wrote:

lightsaber wrote:

There is no doubt AZ messed up, but there is also no doubt the EU is diverting attention.

Diverting attention from what? I would like to see some facts for this kind of unsubstantiated opinions. Ans please something better than UK-based facts, thank you. I read a lot and living in the EU, I simply don't see the "diversion" you are claiming.

Public relations diversion, nit vaccine diversion:
https://news.yahoo.com/news/political-r ... 30030.html
Germany's actions have been interpreted as political both at home and abroad, with opposition leaders calling on Chancellor Angela Merkel to sack Spahn. Officials in major European capitals have given mixed accounts over how the joint move to halt AstraZeneca came about.

The stop on AstraZeneca threatens to hobble Europe's vaccination campaign just as a third wave of infection breaks over the continent, accelerated by more infectious variants.

The bloc has already lagged far behind the United States and former EU member Britain in vaccinating citizens. Hospitals are filling up again, and politicians in several European countries have been forced to consider fresh lockdowns, even as comparable rich countries prepare for normal life to return.
[i]

In my opinion, the EU needs the vaccine.

The on again/off again authorizations are chaos.
e.g., the latest halt is going to multiply the adversion of the "quasi-effective" vaccine.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/compani ... NewsSearch


I can only look in from an outsiders perspective where the EU is demanding their fair share while talking down a vaccine proven to reduce transmission and by looking at UK data, seems incredibly good at that!

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/uk/

The UK only has half their people vaccinated. Most AZ. Yes, mostly imported AZ.

The rest if your reply was splitting semantics, so we'll have to agree to disagree. If AZ is claiming a goal on the day before due date and misses, that is trouble.

For my opinion, I stopped watching TV, I read for data. I look at trends:
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/covi ... untry=~DEU

There are two links I look at each morning, both updated before the London lunch:
https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

The US and in particular UK over-ordered vaccines.
e.g., the USA ordered 300 million AZ doses early:
https://nypost.com/2020/05/21/us-orders ... s-vaccine/

I find it interesting the EU stance is already changing UK vaccine production. e.g. NovaVax was to be finished and filled in the EU, the UK won't make that mistake going forward:
https://theconversation.com/amp/moderna ... own-158196

So from a distance, if AZ can do nothing right (bad vaccine, poor delivery), it is tough to take the fuss seriously Yet lack of this vaccine is literally killing people.

I find it interesting on how Novavax cannot acquire enough ingredients (I posted links earlier) for Novavax, yet they are ramping up UK production. Everyone warned in prior links not negotiating would have consequences. Is that the first obvious sign?

There is the fact the UK funded vaccine development early (enough links upthread) and really funded the Dutch plant. If a negotiated settlement occurs, those in limbo doses free up for everyone.


I have no horse in this race. I solve probems, what is just is. The past tells one how we came to a problem and how to avoid the problem.

Oh, EU regulator is finding no clot risk factor.

https://www.bing.com/amp/s/news.yahoo.c ... 11284.html

My medical friends, in particular those treating Covid19 are watching in horror this AZ spat. This will be one of the most produced vaccines that has, in the real world (numerous links in thread) proven it saves lives.

So the only debate we should be having is production rate and distribution of what us produced. There are billions in the world who certainly feel that the US, UK, and EU are hording the vaccines. Enough so the UN has criticized;
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... thout.html

I hope with the new Pfizer (Germany), Moderna (Switzerland m), J&J (soon at IDT, Sanofi, and Merck), as well as expanding AZ capacity) that the EU has sufficient vaccine.

Let me just say as someone sitting in a country hoping AZ is approved, but not yet available, pointing all the fingers at one vaccine does not make sense. In particular with the UK putting on the stiff upper lip and working to have the three more the funded enter production: NovaVax, Valneva, and CureVac.

I'm sorry, I missed the next EU funded vaccine about to enter distribution, which one is that? I'm quite certain the UK is done with the mistake of funding vaccine production in the EU, but that is just my opinion.

Again, I have no horse in this race. I just read the contracts and came to my own conclusions. [i]For a vaccine sold at cost, AstraZenica made huge mistakes. #1, they never should have sold as cheaply as they did. Throwing money at problems early would have helped.

Lightsaber

That was the deal Oxford University wanted... A Vaccine sold at non profit so it could be sold to developing and nations as less fortunate as the UK,EU and US etc.

lightsaber wrote:

marcelh wrote:

lightsaber wrote:

There is no doubt AZ messed up, but there is also no doubt the EU is diverting attention.

Diverting attention from what? I would like to see some facts for this kind of unsubstantiated opinions. Ans please something better than UK-based facts, thank you. I read a lot and living in the EU, I simply don't see the "diversion" you are claiming.

Public relations diversion, nit vaccine diversion:
https://news.yahoo.com/news/political-r ... 30030.html
[i]Germany's actions have been interpreted as political both at home and abroad, with opposition leaders calling on Chancellor Angela Merkel to sack Spahn. Officials in major European capitals have given mixed accounts over how the joint move to halt AstraZeneca came about.

The stop on AstraZeneca threatens to hobble Europe's vaccination campaign just as a third wave of infection breaks over the continent, accelerated by more infectious variants.

The bloc has already lagged far behind the United States and former EU member Britain in vaccinating citizens. Hospitals are filling up again, and politicians in several European countries have been forced to consider fresh lockdowns, even as comparable rich countries prepare for normal life to return.
[i]

In my opinion, the EU needs the vaccine.

The on again/off again authorizations are chaos.
e.g., the latest halt is going to multiply the adversion of the "quasi-effective" vaccine.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/compani ... NewsSearch


I can only look in from an outsiders perspective where the EU is demanding their fair share while talking down a vaccine proven to reduce transmission and by looking at UK data, seems incredibly good at that!

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/uk/

The UK only has half their people vaccinated. Most AZ. Yes, mostly imported AZ.

The rest if your reply was splitting semantics, so we'll have to agree to disagree. If AZ is claiming a goal on the day before due date and misses, that is trouble.

For my opinion, I stopped watching TV, I read for data. I look at trends:
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/covi ... untry=~DEU

There are two links I look at each morning, both updated before the London lunch:
https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

The US and in particular UK over-ordered vaccines.
e.g., the USA ordered 300 million AZ doses early:
https://nypost.com/2020/05/21/us-orders ... s-vaccine/

I find it interesting the EU stance is already changing UK vaccine production. e.g. NovaVax was to be finished and filled in the EU, the UK won't make that mistake going forward:
https://theconversation.com/amp/moderna ... own-158196

So from a distance, if AZ can do nothing right (bad vaccine, poor delivery), it is tough to take the fuss seriously Yet lack of this vaccine is literally killing people.

I find it interesting on how Novavax cannot acquire enough ingredients (I posted links earlier) for Novavax, yet they are ramping up UK production. Everyone warned in prior links not negotiating would have consequences. Is that the first obvious sign?

There is the fact the UK funded vaccine development early (enough links upthread) and really funded the Dutch plant. If a negotiated settlement occurs, those in limbo doses free up for everyone.


I have no horse in this race. I solve probems, what is just is. The past tells one how we came to a problem and how to avoid the problem.

Oh, EU regulator is finding no clot risk factor.

https://www.bing.com/amp/s/news.yahoo.c ... 11284.html

My medical friends, in particular those treating Covid19 are watching in horror this AZ spat. This will be one of the most produced vaccines that has, in the real world (numerous links in thread) proven it saves lives.

So the only debate we should be having is production rate and distribution of what us produced. There are billions in the world who certainly feel that the US, UK, and EU are hording the vaccines. Enough so the UN has criticized;
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... thout.html

I hope with the new Pfizer (Germany), Moderna (Switzerland m), J&J (soon at IDT, Sanofi, and Merck), as well as expanding AZ capacity) that the EU has sufficient vaccine.

Let me just say as someone sitting in a country hoping AZ is approved, but not yet available, pointing all the fingers at one vaccine does not make sense. In particular with the UK putting on the stiff upper lip and working to have the three more the funded enter production: NovaVax, Valneva, and CureVac.

I'm sorry, I missed the next EU funded vaccine about to enter distribution, which one is that? I'm quite certain the UK is done with the mistake of funding vaccine production in the EU, but that is just my opinion.

Again, I have no horse in this race. I just read the contracts and came to my own conclusions. For a vaccine sold at cost, AstraZenica made huge mistakes. #1, they never should have sold as cheaply as they did. Throwing money at problems early would have helped.

Lightsaber

Well, if we’re being strictly objective:

- the US has dinged AZ’s handling of its testing data (which was also an early criticism from Germany, that is now being dismissed as “political deflection”)

- Canada was the first country to suspend the use of AZ under 55. It has no dog in the fight. It is waiting for adequate data to determine the rate of incidence of side effects before resuming.

- The corollary to that is that Canadian scientists dont think there’s sufficient data out there to establish the rate of incidence. That, in turn, suggests that no one - including the UK - has used AZ extensively in individuals under 55.

- It is therefore premature to say that the UK’s use of AZ proves that it’s safe. Since we’re now in the world of dismissing German and French scientists out of hand simply because they’re German or French, perhaps we should consider what the Canadian scientists (who are, by definition, not European) are saying: that there is insufficient data to prove this vaccine is safe for under 55s.

- While I’m sure some here who know more than the Canadian doctors who very publicly made their views known, I’d humbly submit that they’re not interested in political deflection on behalf of the EU.

- As to fulfilling contractual obligations, it stands to reason that the EU will use its AZ stockpile the way Canada will - to vaccinate older people. Not sure why this isn’t clear as day.

As an aside, the EU regulator did not find that there is “no clot risk factor”. While the link you posted doesn’t work on my device, here’s the Bloomberg report:

“The European Union’s drugs regulator said a link between AstraZeneca Plc’s Covid-19 vaccine and a rare type of blood clot is possible, identifying at least 62 cases of the condition while insisting the shot’s benefits still outweigh its risks.
...
The European Medicines Agency said its safety committee will probably issue an updated recommendation next week. If the panel concludes there’s a connection between the clots and Astra’s vaccine, the EMA will change its recommendations to patients and health-care officials, Executive Director Emer Cooke said.”

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... rse-events

That is based on data up to 22 March.

Another interesting tidbit from the same story:

“Looking beyond the rare clots, most of the adverse reactions reported in patients who had received Astra’s vaccine occurred in the U.K., where it has been used most and where the government has defended the homegrown shot. A March 8 review identified 246 reactions involving various types of artery blockages or blood clots in Britain, including a range of conditions. That’s out of 269 instances in a dozen countries, which included about 40 deaths, the regulator said. Just because the reactions were reported after vaccination doesn’t mean they’re linked to the vaccine.“

lightsaber wrote:

. Throwing money at problems early would have helped.

That's exactly what the EU did.

Threw 100s of millions to several companies with a stellar reputation, and look where it got them.

Anyway AZ will be relegated to a tiny part of the market in EU. The Pfizer production is several orders of magnitude higher and deliveries while not perfect are more predictable.

lightsaber wrote:

marcelh wrote:

lightsaber wrote:

There is no doubt AZ messed up, but there is also no doubt the EU is diverting attention.

Diverting attention from what? I would like to see some facts for this kind of unsubstantiated opinions. Ans please something better than UK-based facts, thank you. I read a lot and living in the EU, I simply don't see the "diversion" you are claiming.

Public relations diversion, nit vaccine diversion:
https://news.yahoo.com/news/political-r ... 30030.html
Germany's actions have been interpreted as political both at home and abroad, with opposition leaders calling on Chancellor Angela Merkel to sack Spahn. Officials in major European capitals have given mixed accounts over how the joint move to halt AstraZeneca came about.

The stop on AstraZeneca threatens to hobble Europe's vaccination campaign just as a third wave of infection breaks over the continent, accelerated by more infectious variants.

The bloc has already lagged far behind the United States and former EU member Britain in vaccinating citizens. Hospitals are filling up again, and politicians in several European countries have been forced to consider fresh lockdowns, even as comparable rich countries prepare for normal life to return.

Mmmokay... you came up with an article 14 days old about a German minister whose actions "have been interpreted as political both at home and abroad".
At home by the opposition leaders - in an election year - isn't surprising. And abroad by whom?

You also missed:
"A senior German government source denied that Berlin had exerted any pressure, noting that smaller EU member states such as Austria and Belgium had already raised the alarm.
"Nobody is being forced to do anything," said the German source, who spoke on condition of anonymity. "That's not how the EU works.""

So your statement "...but there is also no doubt the EU is diverting attention." is based on a two weeks old article about a German Minister, not the EU. And again you are blaming the EU for "diverting attention" and also downplaning the huge mess AstraZenica made. With less than 4 hours remaining of Q1-2021, according to the vaccine tracker of the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control, AZ has only delivered 19,792,942 doses.

In my opinion, the EU needs the vaccine.

And who is to blame?

The on again/off again authorizations are chaos.
e.g., the latest halt is going to multiply the adversion of the "quasi-effective" vaccine.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/compani ... NewsSearch

This artticle doesn't talk about a "quasi-effective" vaccin, so that is your personal (biased) statement.

Interesting part you didn't mention:

"But then on Tuesday it was announced that the whole country would no longer give the vaccine to anyone under 60 years old following advice from the country's independent vaccine committee, known as STIKO.

The committee said in a statement on Tuesday that "after several consultations, the majority of the STIKO decided, with the help of external experts, to only recommend the Covid-19 AstraZeneca vaccine for people aged 60 and over.""

key words: "indepenent vaccine committee", "several consultations", "majority", "help of external experts", "recommend".

"Germany's Paul Ehrlich Institute, a federal agency and medical regulatory body, told CNBC that there had been 31 cases of blood clots in the cerebral veins — a condition known as sinus vein thrombosis or cerebral venous sinus thrombosis — reported to it as part of spontaneous recording.

Within that number, thrombocytopenia (a condition characterized by abnormally low levels of platelets in the blood) was also reported in 19 cases. In nine of those cases, the people affected died."

"Everything is based on one principle and that is trust," Merkel said at a news conference, Reuters reported. "Confidence arises from the knowledge that every suspicion is counted in every individual case." The 66-year old chancellor added that she would also be willing to receive the AstraZeneca vaccine "when it is my turn," Deutsche Welle reported.

Political distraction?

I can only look in from an outsiders perspective where the EU is demanding their fair share while talking down a vaccine proven to reduce transmission and by looking at UK data, seems incredibly good at that!

Some countries in the EU aren't talking down a vaccine, they're just cautious. And yes, the results in the UK are very good, no one is denying that (not even in the EU).

The rest if your reply was splitting semantics, so we'll have to agree to disagree. If AZ is claiming a goal on the day before due date and misses, that is trouble.

It isn't semantics, it's your way of twisting and turning (and I have stated that before).

I find it interesting the EU stance is already changing UK vaccine production. e.g. NovaVax was to be finished and filled in the EU, the UK won't make that mistake going forward:
https://theconversation.com/amp/moderna ... own-158196

So it's OK

So from a distance, if AZ can do nothing right (bad vaccine, poor delivery), it is tough to take the fuss seriously Yet lack of this vaccine is literally killing people.

You may ask yourself what will kill more people: Being overcautious regarding some unwanted effects (also aknowledged outside the EU), or the missed delivery of - at least 70 million doses of vaccin by tomorrow....

I find it interesting on how Novavax cannot acquire enough ingredients (I posted links earlier) for Novavax, yet they are ramping up UK production. Everyone warned in prior links not negotiating would have consequences. Is that the first obvious sign?

UK has ordered 60 million doses, not really a huge amount.

EU has 100 million doses
https://www.msn.com/en-us/finance/other ... uxbndlbing

Over 72 million administered a few days ago, that us doing well:
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/cumu ... pean+Union

So, it is now supply limited (new information changes my opinion).

Lightsaber

I'm a little lost. Until now we (and the media) only were talking about one AZ shipment blocked by the EU (the one to Australia). But a few days ago, Australia's Secretary of the Department of Health, Brendan Murphy, said:

Murphy blamed the slow rollout on blocked imports from the EU, which he said the government did not anticipate lasting when it made its initial vaccination projections.
“AstraZeneca have had a number of attempts to get shipments released and they haven’t been successful,” Murphy said.
Wednesday, 24 March 21
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-n ... chief-says

To me two questions rise from Murphy's comment:

• How much vaccine did AZ actually think they could produce in its (and partners) EU factories in Q1?
• When the EU talks about transparency they just mean from the vaccine companies towards them? And not some transparency towards the public?

Seesawing messages from EU making people very hesitant:
https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/04/01/ast ... usion.html
The European Medicines Agency and World Health Organization, following safety reviews of the data, recommended continued use of the shot, saying its benefits outweighed possible risks. But those fears have not gone away, with confusion now reigning over which age group should, and can, take the vaccine.

On Tuesday, Germany suspended use of the AstraZeneca shot in all citizens under 60, citing renewed concerns after a small number of reports of rare but serious blood clots. Earlier this week, some hospitals in Berlin had initially stopped vaccinating women under 55 with AstraZeneca's shot.
I personally cannot understand the messaging from the EU on AZ.

When supply is corrected, people will wait and that is the opposite of what you want from a public health perspective.

Meanwhile, study shows single dose AZ 62%
effective in elderly after 5 weeks:
https://www.news-medical.net/news/20210 ... dents.aspx

What is the status of the Australia doses? Are they going into EU arms or in limbo?

What is the status of the 10 million UK doses? Are they in limbo or released to EU countries?

21 million pounds spent by UK on Dutch plant. Obviously the UK must avoid any repeat of such a mistake:
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/finance/other ... NewsSearch

Since zero doses coming from EU in near term, I hope others can recover:
https://www.bing.com/amp/s/amp.ft.com/c ... 3d8f7519df

This is such a barrage if counteracting, but consistently negative from every angle against AZ, I am not sure of the situation.

Yet EU medical authority reaffirms no clot risk:
https://www.bing.com/amp/s/mobile.reute ... SKBN2BN27Q

I couldn't do a better FUD campaign against AZ if I tried. Oh, they didn't produce nearly enough vaccine. They over-promised and under-delivered without doubt. The bigger concern is how the world will be hesitant to take a proven effective vaccine once supplies are more common.

Unfortunately, this coming wave will be interesting.

Lightsaber

lightsaber wrote:

Seesawing messages from EU making people very hesitant:
https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/04/01/ast ... usion.html
The European Medicines Agency and World Health Organization, following safety reviews of the data, recommended continued use of the shot, saying its benefits outweighed possible risks. But those fears have not gone away, with confusion now reigning over which age group should, and can, take the vaccine.

On Tuesday, Germany suspended use of the AstraZeneca shot in all citizens under 60, citing renewed concerns after a small number of reports of rare but serious blood clots. Earlier this week, some hospitals in Berlin had initially stopped vaccinating women under 55 with AstraZeneca's shot.
I personally cannot understand the messaging from the EU on AZ.

When supply is corrected, people will wait and that is the opposite of what you want from a public health perspective.

Meanwhile, study shows single dose AZ 62%
effective in elderly after 5 weeks:
https://www.news-medical.net/news/20210 ... dents.aspx

What is the status of the Australia doses? Are they going into EU arms or in limbo?

What is the status of the 10 million UK doses? Are they in limbo or released to EU countries?

21 million pounds spent by UK on Dutch plant. Obviously the UK must avoid any repeat of such a mistake:
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/finance/other ... NewsSearch

Since zero doses coming from EU in near term, I hope others can recover:
https://www.bing.com/amp/s/amp.ft.com/c ... 3d8f7519df

This is such a barrage if counteracting, but consistently negative from every angle against AZ, I am not sure of the situation.

Yet EU medical authority reaffirms no clot risk:
https://www.bing.com/amp/s/mobile.reute ... SKBN2BN27Q

I couldn't do a better FUD campaign against AZ if I tried. Oh, they didn't produce nearly enough vaccine. They over-promised and under-delivered without doubt. The bigger concern is how the world will be hesitant to take a proven effective vaccine once supplies are more common.

Unfortunately, this coming wave will be interesting.

Lightsaber

No, the EMA has not said there is no clot risk factor. They’ve quite clearly stated that a causal link is possible, but needs further analysis to prove that it does or does not exist. Like the Canadians. And presumably Americans. (The Germans and French have said it too, but judging by your posts, they are not to be trusted).

“ At present the review has not identified any specific risk factors, such as age, gender or a previous medical history of clotting disorders, for these very rare events. A causal link with the vaccine is not proven, but is possible and further analysis is continuing.”

https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/news/astra ... -continues

As an aside, what 10 million AZ shots for the UK are you referring to? The ones that have already been sent to the UK? Or has the EU stopped another batch?

ElPistolero wrote:

As an aside, what 10 million AZ shots for the UK are you referring to? The ones that have already been sent to the UK? Or has the EU stopped another batch?

Assume he is talking about the millions of doses that it was claimed AZ hid in a factory in Italy which was tracked down by folks investigating the plant in Holland which had not yet been certified. Conventional EU wisdom is that once the millions were found, AZ fessed up and said some were for the EU, UK and others even though the EU cannot use since they were from an unauthorized factory.
I suspect that things are moving so fast that we are missing / forgetting things already cleared, however, if you go up thread, you can see a number of post with links with actual number listed.

In all the controversy over the plant in Holland producing AZ vaccine I have lost track of the supply of AZ vaccine scheduled to be available for use in UK (UK production and imports). I note that in the last 2 weeks the number of second doses administered each day in England has risen dramatically, now reaching a level where it exceeds the number of first doses administered each day. Is this due to uncertainty over supply and to ensure second doses are given before a possible substantial drop in supply prevents some people receiving a second dose within 12 weeks of the first?

marcelh wrote:

UK has ordered 60 million doses, not really a huge amount.

60 million doses for about 50 million adults, with 31 million on another vaccine regimen.

I seem to have not communicated well. The most important aspect of a vaccine, in my opinion, is slowing down transmission from infected person to another person. By getting out more vaccine early, the spread is slowed.

Please compare the daily new cases Israel, UK, France, and Germany:
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

The UK and even more so Israel are undoubtedly benefitting from a high vaccination rate (if you cannot get sick, you will not transmit and if you do get sick, we've discussed in the general vaccine thread enough about how vaccines reduce transmission, it is, in my opinion, self evident now).

So getting out NovaVax means jabbing some greater fraction quickly and reserving AZ and any Pfizer for 2nd jabs.

The UK is actually really close to herd immunity thanks to the vaccine drive.

This study on Pfizer shows one dose of vaccine is imparting far more immunity than natural after an illness and 1dose+ illness is really good immunity.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01325-6

To fully acheive herd immunity, 2nd doses are required and more people vaccinated. Another source at this critical time is awesome!!!

So "only" 60 million more is huge. If that were for the EU, where I posted earlier just over 100 million doses delivered, that would be 6.6% vaccinated. For the UK, another 30 million (in reality say 11 million quickly) means they vaccinate another 15% to 40% with NovaVax (I'd bet the low end, but just my opinion).

https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations

More is better at this juncture. The UK going from 31 million to 42 million might just be enough to avoid the coming wave.

The issue for the EU (yes, I am changing opinion after reading more) they will go through this third wave and like New Jersey here in the USA, not recover before the 4th wave variants spike up, but that is just my opinion.*

Lightsaber

* 3rd wave is B.1.1.7, B.1.427/429 and earlier variants.
4th wave is P.1, B.1.351, B.1.220/526, and the other E484K/Q with enhanced binding variants (India and others need to label their new E484K/Q variants). These are the nasty ones where prior exposure doesn't matter much.

ElPistolero wrote:

lightsaber wrote:

Seesawing messages from EU making people very hesitant:
https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/04/01/ast ... usion.html
The European Medicines Agency and World Health Organization, following safety reviews of the data, recommended continued use of the shot, saying its benefits outweighed possible risks. But those fears have not gone away, with confusion now reigning over which age group should, and can, take the vaccine.

On Tuesday, Germany suspended use of the AstraZeneca shot in all citizens under 60, citing renewed concerns after a small number of reports of rare but serious blood clots. Earlier this week, some hospitals in Berlin had initially stopped vaccinating women under 55 with AstraZeneca's shot.
I personally cannot understand the messaging from the EU on AZ.

When supply is corrected, people will wait and that is the opposite of what you want from a public health perspective.

Meanwhile, study shows single dose AZ 62%
effective in elderly after 5 weeks:
https://www.news-medical.net/news/20210 ... dents.aspx

What is the status of the Australia doses? Are they going into EU arms or in limbo?

What is the status of the 10 million UK doses? Are they in limbo or released to EU countries?

21 million pounds spent by UK on Dutch plant. Obviously the UK must avoid any repeat of such a mistake:
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/finance/other ... NewsSearch

Since zero doses coming from EU in near term, I hope others can recover:
https://www.bing.com/amp/s/amp.ft.com/c ... 3d8f7519df

This is such a barrage if counteracting, but consistently negative from every angle against AZ, I am not sure of the situation.

Yet EU medical authority reaffirms no clot risk:
https://www.bing.com/amp/s/mobile.reute ... SKBN2BN27Q

I couldn't do a better FUD campaign against AZ if I tried. Oh, they didn't produce nearly enough vaccine. They over-promised and under-delivered without doubt. The bigger concern is how the world will be hesitant to take a proven effective vaccine once supplies are more common.

Unfortunately, this coming wave will be interesting.

Lightsaber

No, the EMA has not said there is no clot risk factor. They’ve quite clearly stated that a causal link is possible, but needs further analysis to prove that it does or does not exist. Like the Canadians. And presumably Americans. (The Germans and French have said it too, but judging by your posts, they are not to be trusted).

“ At present the review has not identified any specific risk factors, such as age, gender or a previous medical history of clotting disorders, for these very rare events. A causal link with the vaccine is not proven, but is possible and further analysis is continuing.”

https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/news/astra ... -continues

As an aside, what 10 million AZ shots for the UK are you referring to? The ones that have already been sent to the UK? Or has the EU stopped another batch?

Were the Dutch 10 million that have been debated, what is the fate if those doses

Other links is no significant. I am convinced AZ is safe. At least far safer than Covid19.

Sigh, a friends child has the inverted taste (all food tastes rotten). Oh... that is a nightmare. The vaccines are far safer than the long haul side effects. I personally have very mild Tennitus as a side effect of having had Covid19. For some it is horrible. I personally cannot smell most things; although this week I gained the ability to smell rotten food (trash) and body odor... errr... yea. I still cannot taste animal fats, including dairy (well, there went my love for cheese, lamb, and ice cream).

The EU isn't seeing clotting above background. Unfortunately, my sister is seeing more and more ex- patients commit suicide due to long haul effects with lung damage and severe Tennitus being the main drivers. She has gad several patients with Tennitus so severe they cannot work and one committed suicide last week.
https://time.com/5880191/long-haul-covid-19/

I'm so pro-vaccine as in the wards it is bad. e.g., this week a family followed a living will and "pulled the plug" on one of her patients. Or more precicely, turned off the oxygen for a patient who wasn't ever going to live a normal life due to extensive lung damage.

A background level of clots vs. long haul... Just go for a walk before and after a vaccine. There are now 1.1 million long haul cases in the UK or 1.6% if the population.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/health/medica ... uxbndlbing

https://www.bing.com/amp/s/mobile.reute ... SKBN2BN27Q
Europe's medicines regulator reiterated its backing of AstraZeneca's COVID-19 vaccine, saying no particular group of age, sex or a previous medical history was especially susceptible to blood clotting after receiving the shot.



Lightsaber

art wrote:

In all the controversy over the plant in Holland producing AZ vaccine I have lost track of the supply of AZ vaccine scheduled to be available for use in UK (UK production and imports). I note that in the last 2 weeks the number of second doses administered each day in England has risen dramatically, now reaching a level where it exceeds the number of first doses administered each day. Is this due to uncertainty over supply and to ensure second doses are given before a possible substantial drop in supply prevents some people receiving a second dose within 12 weeks of the first?

I could be wrong but they were talking about a planned shift to vaccinating under-50s with Moderna, so as there's a looming shortfall in AZ vaccines they could indeed have diverted all remaining stock to second-dose the over-50s...

Is not a perfect solution? The EU thinks AZ is not safe, so the missing supply is no longer a problem and AZ can concentrate on other countries, which want their safe and effective vaccine.

I'm with Seahawk. If the EU doesn't want AZ, release AZ from contracts, with some penalty, and let AZ sell to the world.

It cannot be in demand and not wanted. The messaging from the various EU governments has been horrible from how Merkel stated she wasn't going to take it (better to have said had or scheduled for another), "quasi-effective" and this constant stopping on tiny numbers of clots not above the background levels.

I believe the EU is scaring their own people away from all vaccines.
https://www.euronews.com/2021/03/26/vac ... ey-reveals
Around 42% of French respondents thought the Oxford/AstraZeneca jab unsafe in a YouGov survey last month.

But following the suspensions, that has now jumped to more than six-in-ten.

France has always been one of the highest vaccine sceptical countries in the world, and a study by Ipsos between December 17-20 found the lowest levels of COVID-19 vaccination intent in France.

Vaccine hesitancy in the UK has fallen to 1 in 5, that is really good communication!!
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... s-ONS.html

Either there is a problem with the vaccine and the rest of the world should be allowed the doses, or there is a problem with supply.

Both cannot be an issue in my opinion. In my opinion, the AZ Vaccine is outstanding!

Meh, as one co-worker noted, those who resist getting vaccinated have their own issues. Then again, she is organizing events for vaccinated only (either already had Covid19 + 1 dose or fully vaccinated). This is against company policy, so only done by word of mouth. Any vaccine qualifies. I want to go in a cruise, but I will only consider cruises that are 100% vaccinated, but I think cruise lines know this:
https://news.yahoo.com/news/windstar-cr ... 11929.html

I already posted how the UK is now scrambling for more domestic supply. Since the EU prohibits exports, there us no reason anyone should discuss with EU vendors at this time.

If AZ is so bad, why is the EU asking for 10 million AZ doses from India?
https://www.msn.com/en-au/lifestyle/wel ... NewsSearch

Oh the irony...

Lightsaber

lightsaber wrote:

I'm with Seahawk. If the EU doesn't want AZ, release AZ from contracts, with some penalty, and let AZ sell to the world.

It cannot be in demand and not wanted. The messaging from the various EU governments has been horrible from how Merkel stated she wasn't going to take it (better to have said had or scheduled for another), "quasi-effective" and this constant stopping on tiny numbers of clots not above the background levels.

I believe the EU is scaring their own people away from all vaccines.
https://www.euronews.com/2021/03/26/vac ... ey-reveals
Around 42% of French respondents thought the Oxford/AstraZeneca jab unsafe in a YouGov survey last month.

But following the suspensions, that has now jumped to more than six-in-ten.

France has always been one of the highest vaccine sceptical countries in the world, and a study by Ipsos between December 17-20 found the lowest levels of COVID-19 vaccination intent in France.

Vaccine hesitancy in the UK has fallen to 1 in 5, that is really good communication!!
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... s-ONS.html

Either there is a problem with the vaccine and the rest of the world should be allowed the doses, or there is a problem with supply.

Both cannot be an issue in my opinion. In my opinion, the AZ Vaccine is outstanding!

Meh, as one co-worker noted, those who resist getting vaccinated have their own issues. Then again, she is organizing events for vaccinated only (either already had Covid19 + 1 dose or fully vaccinated). This is against company policy, so only done by word of mouth. Any vaccine qualifies. I want to go in a cruise, but I will only consider cruises that are 100% vaccinated, but I think cruise lines know this:
https://news.yahoo.com/news/windstar-cr ... 11929.html

I already posted how the UK is now scrambling for more domestic supply. Since the EU prohibits exports, there us no reason anyone should discuss with EU vendors at this time.

If AZ is so bad, why is the EU asking for 10 million AZ doses from India?
https://www.msn.com/en-au/lifestyle/wel ... NewsSearch

Oh the irony...

Lightsaber

We can keep going in circles, but nobody in the EU (or Canada) has banned the use of AZ across the board.

Therefore questions like this:

If AZ is so bad, why is the EU asking for 10 million AZ doses from India?

are - evidently - deliberately misleading because none of the medical authorities have said AZ is “bad”. There are more people above the age of 55 in the EU than the number of AZ doses in the EU, and the vaccines can - and will - be used for them (same as Canada).

Let’s be clear here: there is nothing contradictory (or ironic) between suspending use of this vaccine for people under 55, and buying it to inoculate over 55s/60s.

While I’m sorry to hear that you had to go through your ordeal, that doesn’t give you carte blanche to make misleading statements. Nothing coming from the EU is particularly different from what Canada and the US have said to date.

As to irony, the US isn’t even allowing it to be used yet.

seahawk wrote:

Is not a perfect solution? The EU thinks AZ is not safe, so the missing supply is no longer a problem and AZ can concentrate on other countries, which want their safe and effective vaccine.

Please, stop repeating this nonsense. Where did you read that the EU thinks az is not safe? It's being used in the majority of EU members for all ages with explicit approval by the EMA.

Is this another case where posters need to be specific about EU and member nations and EU and member nation health authorities? A 14 day halt then should have been close to end of month.
https://www.dw.com/en/covid-several-eur ... a-56835406

ElPistolero wrote:

lightsaber wrote:

I'm with Seahawk. If the EU doesn't want AZ, release AZ from contracts, with some penalty, and let AZ sell to the world.

It cannot be in demand and not wanted. The messaging from the various EU governments has been horrible from how Merkel stated she wasn't going to take it (better to have said had or scheduled for another), "quasi-effective" and this constant stopping on tiny numbers of clots not above the background levels.

I believe the EU is scaring their own people away from all vaccines.
https://www.euronews.com/2021/03/26/vac ... ey-reveals
Around 42% of French respondents thought the Oxford/AstraZeneca jab unsafe in a YouGov survey last month.

But following the suspensions, that has now jumped to more than six-in-ten.

France has always been one of the highest vaccine sceptical countries in the world, and a study by Ipsos between December 17-20 found the lowest levels of COVID-19 vaccination intent in France.

Vaccine hesitancy in the UK has fallen to 1 in 5, that is really good communication!!
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... s-ONS.html

Either there is a problem with the vaccine and the rest of the world should be allowed the doses, or there is a problem with supply.

Both cannot be an issue in my opinion. In my opinion, the AZ Vaccine is outstanding!

Meh, as one co-worker noted, those who resist getting vaccinated have their own issues. Then again, she is organizing events for vaccinated only (either already had Covid19 + 1 dose or fully vaccinated). This is against company policy, so only done by word of mouth. Any vaccine qualifies. I want to go in a cruise, but I will only consider cruises that are 100% vaccinated, but I think cruise lines know this:
https://news.yahoo.com/news/windstar-cr ... 11929.html

I already posted how the UK is now scrambling for more domestic supply. Since the EU prohibits exports, there us no reason anyone should discuss with EU vendors at this time.

If AZ is so bad, why is the EU asking for 10 million AZ doses from India?
https://www.msn.com/en-au/lifestyle/wel ... NewsSearch

Oh the irony...

Lightsaber

We can keep going in circles, but nobody in the EU (or Canada) has banned the use of AZ across the board.

Therefore questions like this:

If AZ is so bad, why is the EU asking for 10 million AZ doses from India?

are - evidently - deliberately misleading because none of the medical authorities have said AZ is “bad”. There are more people above the age of 55 in the EU than the number of AZ doses in the EU, and the vaccines can - and will - be used for them (same as Canada).

Let’s be clear here: there is nothing contradictory (or ironic) between suspending use of this vaccine for people under 55, and buying it to inoculate over 55s/60s.

While I’m sorry to hear that you had to go through your ordeal, that doesn’t give you carte blanche to make misleading statements. Nothing coming from the EU is particularly different from what Canada and the US have said to date.

As to irony, the US isn’t even allowing it to be used yet.[/quote

The messaging is incredibly mixed. What statement is misleading? The on/off again would spook every vax-hesitant person I know. The public relations on AZ is going to scare people.
https://edition.cnn.com/2021/03/18/euro ... index.html
The European Medicines Agency (EMA)'s executive director Emer Cooke said the agency had "come to a clear scientific conclusion: this is a safe and effective vaccine."


But experts fear that some damage has already been done. In France, an Elabe poll showed this week that only 22% of the population now trusts the AstraZeneca vaccine. Remi Salomon, a senior French hospitals official, told BFM TV on Thursday that "people are being overly cautious" in the country and that he feared "people will not interpret" the suspensions in "the right way."
"A scare like this has the potential to increase vaccine hesitancy," Michael Head, senior research fellow in Global Health at the University of Southampton in Britain, told CNN earlier in the week. "These vaccines are to protect against a pandemic virus. There is an urgency to the rollout."

https://www.fool.com/investing/2021/03/ ... cas-covid/
“Just the fact that this question mark has been raised will feed into conspiracy theories about the state and pharmaceutical companies hiding evidence of the dangerous side effects of vaccines, which seems to be the root of a lot of anti-vaxxer messages,”

recent Wellcome Trust poll showed that only 47 percent of the French population believed that vaccines are safe, and according to an Ipsos-World Economic Forum survey from last December, only 40 percent of the French planned to get vaccinated, followed by 62 percent of Italians and Spaniards, and 65 percent of Germans.

Europe has a bad vaccine hesitancy issue. Over-dramatizing vaccine dangers will, in my opinion, enhance that hesitancy

So you accused me of being misleading. I don't feel I am being misleading. I was trying to point out the probabilities of risk! There is a 1.6% chance of long haul side effects per my prior link in the UK. errr... every report is not above the background rate for clots.

30 in 11 million or 2.72 E-6 that is 0.000027% in the UK (I use UK data as they have the easiest to find full data)
https://www.metro.us/uk-regulator-found-total/

Since vaccines so decrease risk, in particular if a lot of people have taken them...

This is a vaccine that continues to prove it is incredibly effective in the UK. Is is the cornerstone of a successful vaccine drive. I hope the EU gets more of it.

When I see statistically normal clots once again stopping vaccination campaigns, I get the idea that the EU decision makers don't know statistics and risk assessment.
Risk vaccine death, I'll take France: 95976 of 4,695,082 cases or 2%
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Did you miss my posts in the main Covid19 thread where I have been frustrated AZ isn't available in the USA?
The next wave has started (in the USA, see New Jersey's data in worldometer... a lot of cases for a moderate population.

Maybe it is the American tendency that if you are always finding fault with something, fault that isn't really fault, then why are you demanding it?
All my doctor friends working coronavirus are getting frustrated at the vax-hesitancy this creating. I believe my links adequately show that is growing because of how the EU is mis-managing communication.

Meh... I qualify for vaccine now locally, I will get it soon. If AZ were available in the USA, I would get it. As you noted, it is not. Now I care for my kids and I would give them AZ tomorrow if it was available.
I believe I have been very consistent on vaccinate as early as possible, In my opinion, that is the success of the UK vaccination drive.

Lightsaber

lightsaber wrote:

The messaging is incredibly mixed

Messaging is mixed because there are multiple countries, multiple organizations in those countries and multiple people in those organizations and then multiple independent medias like different print magazines that try to make their living picking out the most headline grabbing sentence from any of those 10000000 people that they can find to sell their magazines and the one that finds the most controversy generating sentence wins all the money on the table.

On the other hand many of those independent departments care about their own behaviour and reputation first and foremost. If there is any reason to study the safety of the vaccine they will do so and for transparency and for their own reputation they do not do that in secret. Why wouldn't they? If it turns out that there is a major problem and it was not studied then the departments would lose all credibility and that would be major catastrophy.

lightsaber wrote:

The on/off again would spook every vax-hesitant person I know.

If there ever would be a major problem that was not studied that would spook every rational people never to trust any of the organizations involved ever again an that would lead to much bigger vax hesitancy. We have multiple sources for vaccines and for all I know Pfizer is the better one and if some people in EU don't want to be vaccinated with AZ they are going to be vaccinated with Pfizer. No problem. Some get AZ and others get Pfizer. vax-hesitancy towards one vaccine is much better situation than vax-hesitancy towards all of them which would happen if problems in vaccines are not studied or if the organisations involved lose all credibility by looking like fanboys of some brand of vaccine then that would harm every vaccinations also outside covid.

lightsaber wrote:

I believe my links adequately show that is growing because of how the EU is mis-managing communication.

In EU there is no managing of communication. That is something authoritative countries do. In europe we have freedom of speech and when 1000000 independent entities involved all use their freedom of speech this is what happens. There is nobody that can force everybody to sing AZ songs and that is good thing.

If we take another comparable example of tens of independent and sovereign countries by grouping all north and south american countries together we can also say that messaging from american continent has been mixed and the american continent is mis-managing communication.

EU is not a single entity. EU is a group of countries working together in some aspects and on some other aspect not. That is by design. EU is a collection of sovereign countries. No country in EU is going to take orders from EU and that is by design. All the major criticism seems to come from people who do not understand EU and EU is not going to change to such one authoritative entity that some outsiders seems to want.

There is no such thing as EU-wide managing of communications and never will be. Stop asking for such a thing.

par13del wrote:

Is this another case where posters need to be specific about EU and member nations and EU and member nation health authorities? A 14 day halt then should have been close to end of month.
https://www.dw.com/en/covid-several-eur ... a-56835406

Iceland and Norway aren’t EU member states, so yes it makes sense to speak about the seperate states and their national health authorities.

This is my final contribution to this thread. I read too much nonsense about EU and Europe because of basic lack of knowledge by people posting over here to have a meaningful discussion based on real facts and figures.

Please provide a link to your source when stating facts or make it clear you are expressing your opinion. If you do not follow this rule your post will ave to be deleted.

Perhaps the UK/EU will learn from this that messaging and more specific communication are key factors in taking on vast essential projects which intersect both of them. Hint hint even managing Brexit. Trump, God bless him, did not get into attacking particular vaccines, even though he said too much that was received as anti-vaccine messages. Biden, known at one time for untimely gaffes, stays on message - masks, avoid large groups, get vaccinated. Let the top scientists do the talking, a president or prime minister can fire them if they get things too wrong.

lightsaber wrote:

The messaging is incredibly mixed. What statement is misleading? The on/off again would spook every vax-hesitant person I know. The public relations on AZ is going to scare people.
https://edition.cnn.com/2021/03/18/euro ... index.html
The European Medicines Agency (EMA)'s executive director Emer Cooke said the agency had "come to a clear scientific conclusion: this is a safe and effective vaccine."

But experts fear that some damage has already been done. In France, an Elabe poll showed this week that only 22% of the population now trusts the AstraZeneca vaccine. Remi Salomon, a senior French hospitals official, told BFM TV on Thursday that "people are being overly cautious" in the country and that he feared "people will not interpret" the suspensions in "the right way."
"A scare like this has the potential to increase vaccine hesitancy," Michael Head, senior research fellow in Global Health at the University of Southampton in Britain, told CNN earlier in the week. "These vaccines are to protect against a pandemic virus. There is an urgency to the rollout."[/i]

https://www.fool.com/investing/2021/03/ ... cas-covid/
“Just the fact that this question mark has been raised will feed into conspiracy theories about the state and pharmaceutical companies hiding evidence of the dangerous side effects of vaccines, which seems to be the root of a lot of anti-vaxxer messages,”

Statements/questions like this are misleading:

lightsaber wrote:

If AZ is so bad, why is the EU asking for 10 million AZ doses from India?
https://www.msn.com/en-au/lifestyle/wel ... NewsSearch

- No EU medical authority has said AZ is “bad”
- There is no contradiction between suspending its use for under-55s, and procuring it to inoculate over-55s.

Ergo, misleading.

lightsaber wrote:

recent Wellcome Trust poll showed that only 47 percent of the French population believed that vaccines are safe, and according to an Ipsos-World Economic Forum survey from last December, only 40 percent of the French planned to get vaccinated, followed by 62 percent of Italians and Spaniards, and 65 percent of Germans.

Europe has a bad vaccine hesitancy issue. Over-dramatizing vaccine dangers will, in my opinion, enhance that hesitancy

“Europe” has a bad vaccine hesitancy issue? Vaccine hesitancy in the US is significantly higher than in Spain and Germany.

See the table on vaccine hesitancy here:

https://graphics.reuters.com/HEALTH-COR ... ypmrelyvr/

It would be fair to say France has a bad vaccine hesitancy issue, but France does not represent all of “Europe”. And French vaccine hesitancy long preceded anything to do with AZ.

The US sits about halfway between France and Germany. It’s publicly criticized AZ on its data quality. And it’s refused to approve it. Theres nothing particularly inconsistent between the US and Europe in its messaging here.

Should point out that vaccine hesitancy varies in the US too - I’m sure it has a state equivalent (or two) of “France”. Should we hammer the US for ‘mismanaging communication’? News travels etc.

lightsaber wrote:

So you accused me of being misleading. I don't feel I am being misleading. I was trying to point out the probabilities of risk! There is a 1.6% chance of long haul side effects per my prior link in the UK. errr... every report is not above the background rate for clots.

30 in 11 million or 2.72 E-6 that is 0.000027% in the UK (I use UK data as they have the easiest to find full data)
https://www.metro.us/uk-regulator-found-total/

Thats not correct though, is it.

- March 18: 5 cases in 11 million.
- April 1: 30 cases in 18 million.

Prima facie, that’s 25 cases in 7 million - an upward trend.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavir ... -1.5372553

Since they started with the oldest people first, there’s some indication there that as it started being used in younger people, the incident increased. Looks something like this: 500% increase in cases despite only a 72% increase in vaccinations.

lightsaber wrote:

Since vaccines so decrease risk, in particular if a lot of people have taken them...

This is a vaccine that continues to prove it is incredibly effective in the UK. Is is the cornerstone of a successful vaccine drive. I hope the EU gets more of it.

When I see statistically normal clots once again stopping vaccination campaigns, I get the idea that the EU decision makers don't know statistics and risk assessment.
Risk vaccine death, I'll take France: 95976 of 4,695,082 cases or 2%
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

I’ll just reiterate that all of the suspensions are based on insufficient evidence of the linkage (one way or the other). Once the UK starts using AZ widely on the 20-65 crowd, we’ll know more. The stats so far suggest:

- that they haven’t
- that the incidence rate is going up as they start innoculating people in their 50s

The old maxim applies here: there’s no smoke without fire.

lightsaber wrote:

Did you miss my posts in the main Covid19 thread where I have been frustrated AZ isn't available in the USA?
The next wave has started (in the USA, see New Jersey's data in worldometer... a lot of cases for a moderate population.

Maybe it is the American tendency that if you are always finding fault with something, fault that isn't really fault, then why are you demanding it?
All my doctor friends working coronavirus are getting frustrated at the vax-hesitancy this creating. I believe my links adequately show that is growing because of how the EU is mis-managing communication.

What would you like the EU countries to say? “Nothing to see here”? They could, except that Canada has openly and publicly contradicted that, and number of incidents (which the EU has no control over) are increasing.

The Netherlands has suspended AZ for under 60s, after 5 severe cases (including 1 death) in 400,000, all between 25-65. That’s an incidence of 1 in 80,000.

What are we arguing about? That the Netherlands is ‘miscommunicating’ this by making it public? Should they have kept it hidden? If they had, and it got out anyway, it would be far more damaging.

lightsaber wrote:

Meh... I qualify for vaccine now locally, I will get it soon. If AZ were available in the USA, I would get it. As you noted, it is not. Now I care for my kids and I would give them AZ tomorrow if it was available.
I believe I have been very consistent on vaccinate as early as possible, In my opinion, that is the success of the UK vaccination drive.

Lightsaber

Probably not going to get a chance to use it, since the US may not need it.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKBN2BO6XS

Personally, I think it’s too early to tell if AZ poses a risk to under-55s or not. A lot of countries are waiting to see what happens when the UK uses it on that age group. We’ll know soon enough.

A take on the situation in France on both the political and medical issues;
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-56606605

Rather how the uk sees France and EU without understanding them.

Good analysis on EU´s the failure of getting people vaccines.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/02/worl ... ccine.html

And one extra about the utter and complete failure of Germany in the crisis.

https://www.ft.com/content/bc5a3b02-a90 ... ada29feba2

ElPistolero wrote:

See the table on vaccine hesitancy here:

https://graphics.reuters.com/HEALTH-COR ... ypmrelyvr/

Czech Rep. has NOT approved Chinese nor Russian vaccines as the article claims.

seahawk wrote:

Good analysis on EU´s the failure of getting people vaccines.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/02/worl ... ccine.html

And one extra about the utter and complete failure of Germany in the crisis.

https://www.ft.com/content/bc5a3b02-a90 ... ada29feba2

Yes more US sources....

Olddog wrote:

seahawk wrote:

Good analysis on EU´s the failure of getting people vaccines.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/02/worl ... ccine.html

And one extra about the utter and complete failure of Germany in the crisis.

https://www.ft.com/content/bc5a3b02-a90 ... ada29feba2

Yes more US sources....

Or a case of shooting the messenger.
The source I used, not from your demonic US, noted based on their own stats, that Germany has an even lower trust in it's government on Covid and the vaccine than even France.
So be like a trumpist and blame the media, or project, or go all 'whatabout' like they do, doesn't change where you are with vaccines and lockdowns right now, or is that all a transatlantic plot too?

Olddog wrote:

seahawk wrote:

Good analysis on EU´s the failure of getting people vaccines.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/02/worl ... ccine.html

And one extra about the utter and complete failure of Germany in the crisis.

https://www.ft.com/content/bc5a3b02-a90 ... ada29feba2

Yes more US sources....

If you prefer sources in German:

https://www.cicero.de/innenpolitik/deut ... ela-merkel

https://www.focus.de/politik/deutschlan ... 40849.html

https://www.nzz.ch/wirtschaft/impf-gate ... ld.1609039