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c933103
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Sun Feb 14, 2021 6:10 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Autonomous smaller bus-like vehicles and lanes for them will greatly increase through traffic capability on freeways. They could be economy, economy plus, and American business classes. While Musk says FSD by the end of the year, I am a lot more confident that it will be by the end of the decade. It will pose an incredible competitor to all moderate distance transportation modes. Oddly, if this is true the chants that spending money of freeways is an ecological disaster is not true. Those fabulously interconnected and no grade crossings multiple lanes will serve us well.

Why would people use autonomous bus when all those people aren't currently riding buses?
It is already possible to draw lane for buses on highway.
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PHLspecial
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Mon Feb 15, 2021 3:16 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Autonomous smaller bus-like vehicles and lanes for them will greatly increase through traffic capability on freeways. They could be economy, economy plus, and American business classes. While Musk says FSD by the end of the year, I am a lot more confident that it will be by the end of the decade. It will pose an incredible competitor to all moderate distance transportation modes. Oddly, if this is true the chants that spending money of freeways is an ecological disaster is not true. Those fabulously interconnected and no grade crossings multiple lanes will serve us well.

Why Elon? For years transit agency's has been trying to secure one highway lane for bus transit. Why would Elon change the situation? I'm pro trains but we have tons of highways to use might as well use it.
 
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Mon Feb 15, 2021 4:25 pm

Buses can't operate at the speeds of high speed rail. On some routes it's a good idea to repurpose highway lanes for buses, but for intercity travel it's probably not going to have a ton of benefit over the status quo.
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tommy1808
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Tue Feb 16, 2021 6:13 am

PHLspecial wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
Autonomous smaller bus-like vehicles and lanes for them will greatly increase through traffic capability on freeways. They could be economy, economy plus, and American business classes. While Musk says FSD by the end of the year, I am a lot more confident that it will be by the end of the decade. It will pose an incredible competitor to all moderate distance transportation modes. Oddly, if this is true the chants that spending money of freeways is an ecological disaster is not true. Those fabulously interconnected and no grade crossings multiple lanes will serve us well.

Why Elon? For years transit agency's has been trying to secure one highway lane for bus transit. Why would Elon change the situation? I'm pro trains but we have tons of highways to use might as well use it.


I am pretty sure Hyperloop only exists to trip high speed rail proposals or other improved public transport solutions....

best regards
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WIederling
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Tue Feb 16, 2021 12:38 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
I am pretty sure Hyperloop only exists to trip high speed rail proposals or other improved public transport solutions....


You could be onto something.

next Q: what is the real purpose of Niro Milk Tanker derivative "Spaceship" 1..n
and is StarLink less of an internet access offer than a stealth space denial tool?
Murphy is an optimist
 
N757ST
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Tue Feb 16, 2021 2:15 pm

While track costs aren’t “nothing”, the cost of a second track is small compared to the actual big costs.... grading, tunneling, signaling, grade separation, catenary, electrical infrastructure, etc. What are you really saving by deferring a second track? You certainly are adding unnecessary complications.
 
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:45 pm

Autonomous vehicles on designated lanes will be everything from Y class buses (hoping that they consider Y+) to private cars with facilities. Speed will be fast, but it does not have to be as fast as a plane or highspeed rail IF it can be productive time, whether business, studying, or sleeping. The capacity of a single exclusive lane will far exceed the current capacity. Optimal distance for surface to air travel will change. We have discussions now over drive versus fly for 250 mile trips. It will be considerably higher. Door to door via autonomous vehicle(s) may challenge both rail and flying even for that 400 miles between LA and SF.
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:51 pm

N757ST : unless they don't want to do the work as if for 2 tracks (make everything narrower) but then adding the second track would be horribly costly, so it doesn't make sense either.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:42 pm

N757ST wrote:
While track costs aren’t “nothing”, the cost of a second track is small compared to the actual big costs.... grading, tunneling, signaling, grade separation, catenary, electrical infrastructure, etc. What are you really saving by deferring a second track? You certainly are adding unnecessary complications.


sabotage.
now you can point your fingers and pronounce it inefficient and haphazard spending of money ... for minimal effect. :-)
That is established MoO for a range of political opponents ( mostly the conservative kind ).
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Tugger
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:46 pm

Can someone PLEASE kill this abomination? It is NOT "high speed rail", it is just pure political patronage and BS, as can be seen with this new change to make it single track. The costs are insane and it will be 20 years before it does anything useful and by then those costs will have quintupled (from current costs not the original pure heaping pile of bovine excrement cost).

Tugg
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WIederling
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:59 pm

Tugger wrote:
Can someone PLEASE kill this abomination? It is NOT "high speed rail", it is just pure political patronage and BS, as can be seen with this new change to make it single track. The costs are insane and it will be 20 years before it does anything useful and by then those costs will have quintupled (from current costs not the original pure heaping pile of bovine excrement cost).

Tugg


QED to my last post :-)))))))))))))))))
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flyguy89
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Tue Feb 16, 2021 6:14 pm

WIederling wrote:
N757ST wrote:
While track costs aren’t “nothing”, the cost of a second track is small compared to the actual big costs.... grading, tunneling, signaling, grade separation, catenary, electrical infrastructure, etc. What are you really saving by deferring a second track? You certainly are adding unnecessary complications.


sabotage.
now you can point your fingers and pronounce it inefficient and haphazard spending of money ... for minimal effect. :-)
That is established MoO for a range of political opponents ( mostly the conservative kind ).

Except it’s not conservatives in charge of this project...
 
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Tue Feb 16, 2021 6:24 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
WIederling wrote:
N757ST wrote:
While track costs aren’t “nothing”, the cost of a second track is small compared to the actual big costs.... grading, tunneling, signaling, grade separation, catenary, electrical infrastructure, etc. What are you really saving by deferring a second track? You certainly are adding unnecessary complications.


sabotage.
now you can point your fingers and pronounce it inefficient and haphazard spending of money ... for minimal effect. :-)
That is established MoO for a range of political opponents ( mostly the conservative kind ).

Except it’s not conservatives in charge of this project...


Whatever. ( But who effected the cuts? . i.e. who boondoggled the budget evolution. not neccesarily the people who now have to way past further cuts)
notice
The reasonable people get coopted in the process to further the sabotaged outcome.

we see similar devolution here in Germany:
projects get heckled for years and years by nimbys, treehuggers and consorts.
In the end they argue for termination due to excessive cost (caused by those same nimbys, treehuggers and consorts) with no return.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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c933103
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Tue Feb 16, 2021 6:32 pm

N757ST wrote:
While track costs aren’t “nothing”, the cost of a second track is small compared to the actual big costs.... grading, tunneling, signaling, grade separation, catenary, electrical infrastructure, etc. What are you really saving by deferring a second track? You certainly are adding unnecessary complications.

You probably will also save almost half the electrical and signaling infrastructure with only one track in operation?
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate 求同存異 よく見て・よく聞いて・よく考える
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Tue Feb 16, 2021 6:37 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Autonomous vehicles on designated lanes will be everything from Y class buses (hoping that they consider Y+) to private cars with facilities. Speed will be fast, but it does not have to be as fast as a plane or highspeed rail IF it can be productive time, whether business, studying, or sleeping. The capacity of a single exclusive lane will far exceed the current capacity. Optimal distance for surface to air travel will change. We have discussions now over drive versus fly for 250 mile trips. It will be considerably higher. Door to door via autonomous vehicle(s) may challenge both rail and flying even for that 400 miles between LA and SF.

Passengers can already be productive and doesn't need to focus on driving when they take a bus nowadays and it can be fast when it is on dedicated bus lane, which can be drawn using current technology. Autonomous bus wouldn't change that, the only thing would be chamged is the fare can be made cheaper by cutting off the cost of driver
Last edited by c933103 on Tue Feb 16, 2021 6:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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N757ST
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Tue Feb 16, 2021 6:40 pm

Aesma wrote:
N757ST : unless they don't want to do the work as if for 2 tracks (make everything narrower) but then adding the second track would be horribly costly, so it doesn't make sense either.


High speed rail cost is hard to justify on west coast due to a multitude of factors, but if you aren't running trains on a schedule that requires 2 tracks and your schedule is sparse enough to use a single track, it CERTAINLY isn't worth it.
 
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Tue Feb 16, 2021 6:42 pm

N757ST wrote:
Aesma wrote:
N757ST : unless they don't want to do the work as if for 2 tracks (make everything narrower) but then adding the second track would be horribly costly, so it doesn't make sense either.


High speed rail cost is hard to justify on west coast due to a multitude of factors, but if you aren't running trains on a schedule that requires 2 tracks and your schedule is sparse enough to use a single track, it CERTAINLY isn't worth it.

The argument I see from the project is that,
- Initially the operation will only be among towns in Central Valley, so only single track capacity is needed
- Later, the system can be extended to SF and LA, and the second track can be installed at that time
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate 求同存異 よく見て・よく聞いて・よく考える
Fitting foreign event into local context for lessons will only be able to tell local values instead of foreign ones
You're now at your youngest moment in your remaining life
 
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Tue Feb 16, 2021 6:44 pm

c933103 wrote:
N757ST wrote:
While track costs aren’t “nothing”, the cost of a second track is small compared to the actual big costs.... grading, tunneling, signaling, grade separation, catenary, electrical infrastructure, etc. What are you really saving by deferring a second track? You certainly are adding unnecessary complications.

You probably will also save almost half the electrical and signaling infrastructure with only one track in operation?


No. Additional signaling might be necessary, high speed switching. Maybe you save a bit on electrical infrastructure, but the biggest costs of grade separation, tunneling. You're saving some on the constant tension catenary, concrete ties, track bed, rail, trainsets.... these are large costs, but not nearly as high as everything else.
 
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Tue Feb 16, 2021 6:49 pm

Roughly you're looking at the a 40% increase in cost per mile laying double track versus single track, but that isn't including tunneling and grade separation costs which are going to be very very high and not significantly cost different single versus double track.
 
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Tue Feb 16, 2021 6:51 pm

c933103 wrote:
- Later, the system can be extended to SF and LA, and the second track can be installed at that time

Not based on my vote it won't be. It will almost double the cost and certainly far more than that over what the current "projected" cost is.

Tugg
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flyguy89
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Tue Feb 16, 2021 6:58 pm

WIederling wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
WIederling wrote:

sabotage.
now you can point your fingers and pronounce it inefficient and haphazard spending of money ... for minimal effect. :-)
That is established MoO for a range of political opponents ( mostly the conservative kind ).

Except it’s not conservatives in charge of this project...


Whatever. ( But who effected the cuts? . i.e. who boondoggled the budget evolution. not neccesarily the people who now have to way past further cuts)

California is a super-majority Democrat state. Safe to say Republicans have had no say in any part of this project save for heckling it from the sidelines.
 
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Tue Feb 16, 2021 7:00 pm

N757ST wrote:
c933103 wrote:
N757ST wrote:
While track costs aren’t “nothing”, the cost of a second track is small compared to the actual big costs.... grading, tunneling, signaling, grade separation, catenary, electrical infrastructure, etc. What are you really saving by deferring a second track? You certainly are adding unnecessary complications.

You probably will also save almost half the electrical and signaling infrastructure with only one track in operation?


No. Additional signaling might be necessary, high speed switching. Maybe you save a bit on electrical infrastructure, but the biggest costs of grade separation, tunneling. You're saving some on the constant tension catenary, concrete ties, track bed, rail, trainsets.... these are large costs, but not nearly as high as everything else.


N757ST wrote:
Roughly you're looking at the a 40% increase in cost per mile laying double track versus single track, but that isn't including tunneling and grade separation costs which are going to be very very high and not significantly cost different single versus double track.


Official document claim the cost for the 171 miles system in Central Valley, single tracked, will be 21-22 billion USD, with double track costing another 1.1 billion USD
Tugger wrote:
c933103 wrote:
- Later, the system can be extended to SF and LA, and the second track can be installed at that time

Not based on my vote it won't be. It will almost double the cost and certainly far more than that over what the current "projected" cost is.

Tugg

If I'm reading correctly, such extension will need another 80+ billion USD?
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate 求同存異 よく見て・よく聞いて・よく考える
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af773atmsp
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Tue Feb 16, 2021 7:01 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Autonomous vehicles on designated lanes will be everything from Y class buses (hoping that they consider Y+) to private cars with facilities. Speed will be fast, but it does not have to be as fast as a plane or highspeed rail IF it can be productive time, whether business, studying, or sleeping. The capacity of a single exclusive lane will far exceed the current capacity. Optimal distance for surface to air travel will change. We have discussions now over drive versus fly for 250 mile trips. It will be considerably higher. Door to door via autonomous vehicle(s) may challenge both rail and flying even for that 400 miles between LA and SF.


I think people have their hopes up way too high on autonomous technology being applied to cars, trucks, and busses. We have a ways to go before it becomes proven technology in real world environments, and even then there will be a much longer way to go before it becomes commonplace. Even when it's commonplace there will still be people who insist on doing the driving (like how some people still choose a manual transmission over automatic) and so the benefits of autonomous vehicles won't be fully realized.

Also you can already be productive on a bus, train, and plane. All of those modes of transportation are proven technology that we can implement now, but for some reason people have really jumped on the hype of autonomous cars and some seem to think it'll be a cure-all for our transportation issues.
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Tue Feb 16, 2021 7:10 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
WIederling wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
Except it’s not conservatives in charge of this project...


Whatever. ( But who effected the cuts? . i.e. who boondoggled the budget evolution. not neccesarily the people who now have to way past further cuts)

California is a super-majority Democrat state. Safe to say Republicans have had no say in any part of this project save for heckling it from the sidelines.

Actually there are a ton of Dems and "liberal types" (along with others) that are against it. The ballot language alone should have had this abomination cancelled years ago but the money was there and they spent it carefully where it would garner votes and support. However if and when it needs more money, I for one will vote "no" on it.

It needs to die. Incomplete and having spent some $20 billion.

c933103 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
c933103 wrote:
- Later, the system can be extended to SF and LA, and the second track can be installed at that time

Not based on my vote it won't be. It will almost double the cost and certainly far more than that over what the current "projected" cost is.

Tugg

If I'm reading correctly, such extension will need another 80+ billion USD?

Basically yes. It will not get cheaper and the areas it actually needs to go to (SF, LA, SD) are the most expensive parts of it.

Tugg
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N757ST
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Tue Feb 16, 2021 7:27 pm

c933103 wrote:
N757ST wrote:
c933103 wrote:
You probably will also save almost half the electrical and signaling infrastructure with only one track in operation?


No. Additional signaling might be necessary, high speed switching. Maybe you save a bit on electrical infrastructure, but the biggest costs of grade separation, tunneling. You're saving some on the constant tension catenary, concrete ties, track bed, rail, trainsets.... these are large costs, but not nearly as high as everything else.


N757ST wrote:
Roughly you're looking at the a 40% increase in cost per mile laying double track versus single track, but that isn't including tunneling and grade separation costs which are going to be very very high and not significantly cost different single versus double track.


Official document claim the cost for the 171 miles system in Central Valley, single tracked, will be 21-22 billion USD, with double track costing another 1.1 billion USD
Tugger wrote:
c933103 wrote:
- Later, the system can be extended to SF and LA, and the second track can be installed at that time

Not based on my vote it won't be. It will almost double the cost and certainly far more than that over what the current "projected" cost is.

Tugg

If I'm reading correctly, such extension will need another 80+ billion USD?


If you can't justify the second track at only 5% added cost, you can't justify the project in the first place. Without that second track you are looking at less then half the headway. You can't spend 20 billion dollars on a little used project, if you want to shell out the capital cost for HSR you need a lot of people to use it to justify it, and there aren't enough people that can physically use it on an single track in order to justify it. I'm talking true high speed rail, not gimmick HSR like in the midwest with diesel locomotives and at grade crossings at 110mph.
 
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:07 pm

In case anyone is interested in the ballot measure language:
https://ballotpedia.org/California_Prop ... _Act_(2008)

Let's just say the project is in severe violation of itself.

Tugg
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:45 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
We have Southwest Airlines we don’t need this.


Have you ever tried to fly from anywhere in SoCal to SFO when it is raining, or when there is even one cloud in the sky? Instant three-hour delay. SFO has what is known as the "1-2-3" rule, which is that if there is one cloud in the sky and two airplanes trying to land, there will be a three-hour delay. One time, this happened to me flying LAX-SFO and I wound up walking out of the airport, renting a car to dead-head back to SFO and I got to the rental car center at SFO five minutes before my flight would have landed.

In addition, flying is just a miserable experience overall, especially short-haul, where the amount of time you spend getting to, inside of, and leaving the airport winds up totaling more than the time you spend in the air.

HSR is a better option all around between cities like SF/LA/SD. BUT: 1) single-track HSR is an oxymoron and isn't worth building and 2) the alignment should have gone down the I-5 corridor and offered an intermodal connection into the vicinity of LAX.

In any event, I think the USA is pretty hopeless at this point when it comes to large infrastructure projects. We can build some nice airport terminals, but I can't think of any new major transport infrastructure that has been built in the US in the last two decades except for maybe NYC's Second Avenue Subway...and that's not even near complete yet. Every other example I can think of (like the Eastern Span of the SF Bay Bridge) is simply replacing existing infrastructure and isn't really new.
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af773atmsp
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Tue Feb 16, 2021 9:04 pm

DocLightning wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
We have Southwest Airlines we don’t need this.


Have you ever tried to fly from anywhere in SoCal to SFO when it is raining, or when there is even one cloud in the sky? Instant three-hour delay. SFO has what is known as the "1-2-3" rule, which is that if there is one cloud in the sky and two airplanes trying to land, there will be a three-hour delay. One time, this happened to me flying LAX-SFO and I wound up walking out of the airport, renting a car to dead-head back to SFO and I got to the rental car center at SFO five minutes before my flight would have landed.

In addition, flying is just a miserable experience overall, especially short-haul, where the amount of time you spend getting to, inside of, and leaving the airport winds up totaling more than the time you spend in the air.


One of the reasons why I chose to take Amtrak's Coast Starlight from LA to SF (Emeryville, but close enough) instead of flying. $185 for a sleeper and two free meals, though this was a couple years ago so I'm not sure the meals are still included with the ticket price. But still, if the price is right for a sleeper I'll take the 10-12 hour pleasant journey on Amtrak over a flight that will likely be unpleasant even though it takes less than half the time.

I realize for business travelers and others on a schedule the train is likely not an option, but if you're not on a schedule or have plenty of time to spare then definitely look into Amtrak.
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Tue Feb 16, 2021 9:40 pm

Tugger wrote:
In case anyone is interested in the ballot measure language:
https://ballotpedia.org/California_Prop ... _Act_(2008)

Let's just say the project is in severe violation of itself.

Tugg

From the wording it doesn't seems to require the 220mph system to form the full part of the link between SF and LA?
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate 求同存異 よく見て・よく聞いて・よく考える
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CowAnon
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Sun Feb 21, 2021 10:12 pm

In case anyone is interested in the ballot measure language:
https://ballotpedia.org/California_Prop ... _Act_(2008)

  • February 12, 2020: The California High-Speed Rail Authority (CHSRA) announced that the cost estimate for the project was $80.3 billion.

The last large transit measure in the Seattle metro area was approved by the voters in 2016. IIRC, it would invest a total of $54.5 billion for light-rail extensions, bus rapid transit, and park-and-ride construction over 25 years. Considering that's for a metro area of a much-smaller state, $80.3 billion doesn't seem that egregious for California.

Why isn't CHSRA connecting to San Francisco through the Sacramento–San Joaquin River Delta instead of cutting through the mountains? That would be a lot easier topographically and thus less challenging/cheaper for construction. Actually I would've concentrated on getting the Sacramento-to-Bakersfield line first, since that's all through lowland valley. Even though the population served pales in comparison to SF and LA, the catchment area still would serve about 6 million people:

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_V ... California):

  • Sacramento Metropolitan Area (2,527,123)
  • Fresno Metropolitan Area (930,450)
  • Bakersfield Metropolitan Area (839,361)
  • Stockton Metropolitan Area (696,214)
  • Modesto Metropolitan Area (518,522)
  • Visalia–Porterville Metropolitan Area (449,253)
  • Merced Metropolitan Area (259,898)
 
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Sun Feb 21, 2021 10:38 pm

Starlight sleeper is often as much as $700, and that is for a roomette.
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c933103
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:30 am

CowAnon wrote:
Why isn't CHSRA connecting to San Francisco through the Sacramento–San Joaquin River Delta instead of cutting through the mountains? That would be a lot easier topographically and thus less challenging/cheaper for construction.

I doubt high speed rail required minimal turning radius can fit into the little bit of flat area along the rivers there
Actually I would've concentrated on getting the Sacramento-to-Bakersfield line first, since that's all through lowland valley. Even though the population served pales in comparison to SF and LA, the catchment area still would serve about 6 million people:

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_V ... California):

  • Sacramento Metropolitan Area (2,527,123)
  • Fresno Metropolitan Area (930,450)
  • Bakersfield Metropolitan Area (839,361)
  • Stockton Metropolitan Area (696,214)
  • Modesto Metropolitan Area (518,522)
  • Visalia–Porterville Metropolitan Area (449,253)
  • Merced Metropolitan Area (259,898)

revenue will also be much less
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:00 am

DocLightning wrote:
In addition, flying is just a miserable experience overall, especially short-haul, where the amount of time you spend getting to, inside of, and leaving the airport winds up totaling more than the time you spend in the air.


:checkmark:

This. Once you include everything, flying takes forever. You waste hours upon hours getting to, from and waiting in airports. You don't even get to settle down in a comfortable seat for any meaningful amount of time, it's a constant rush from one area to the next with queues at almost every step.
 
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:31 am

DocLightning wrote:
In any event, I think the USA is pretty hopeless at this point when it comes to large infrastructure projects. We can build some nice airport terminals, but I can't think of any new major transport infrastructure that has been built in the US in the last two decades except for maybe NYC's Second Avenue Subway...and that's not even near complete yet. Every other example I can think of (like the Eastern Span of the SF Bay Bridge) is simply replacing existing infrastructure and isn't really new.



There are bright spots here and there. DC Metro is nearing completion of the Silver Line, though much of that was pre-existing along the Orange/Blue. This is badly overdue as the Dulles Greenway sector has experienced massive growth over the past three decades. I would call everything from East Falls Church to 772 a greenfield.

Additionally, there are hopeful signs for the Purple Line becoming a thing. This also is a few decades overdue.



I do agree about the experience of SH flying. Especially as someone who —more or less— has to make use of places like LAX. This guy saying Southwest is fine for those needs betrays a certainty of never having had to deal with any amount of regular regional ravel. As well, I am noting that most of the HSR's detractors are people who do not live out here anyway, so I am not seeing the need for them to input.

I also agree on the one track design. Though good arguments have been made for it up-thread, it is far too much of a compromise for far too little savings. We either do this right or do not bother, I say.
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mad99
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:45 am

I believe here in Spain the Madrid – Leon (north corridor) is a single track due to low frequency of trains
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AVE#North_corridor
 
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:27 pm

Seattle's light rail was highly successful until Covid. It is hybrid in the sense of being longer distance than most subways and fewer stops. Our BRT, bus rapid transit, is also hybrid with a lot more stops than most other systems. Until Covid they couldn't add bus capacity fast enough on some of the routes. With, say a 30% permanent drop in downtown employment population, no one knows how the recovery will be going. My point is that every major commute system may produce a unique model of how to get the job done, and it may not be be static. I am not sure the California system is well thought out. Political realities can screw things up, as it has some parts of the Seattle system.
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:52 pm

Wouldn't operating the single track then trying to construct the second track be more expensive?
 
Okie
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:40 pm

PHLspecial wrote:
Wouldn't operating the single track then trying to construct the second track be more expensive?


That would be my experience, however this is not about saving money.

At least there is in the Covid relief bill there is $14B going to California for transportation with $978M going to the Bay Area Transportation to build a line between Downtown San Fran to Menlo Park for Facebook employee's who work from home or off shore. The bill is 5,593 pages long there is something for everybody.



Do not worry, the best guess from the pundits is there is going to be a 4 to 5 Trillion dollar infrastructure bill to follow the 1.9 T pork bill. So there should not be any trouble to $400,000,000,000.00 or more in that bill for California High Speed rail. Do not give up hope yet.

Okie
 
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:31 am

True high-speed rail will never be practical in the USA unless it comes up in a newly emerging/growing area of the country, which is unlikely given our population and resource distribution. Period, end-of-sentence. Any attempt at proposing, bidding, advocating, or advertising for it is a waste of dollars and nothing more.
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:50 am

DocLightning wrote:
In any event, I think the USA is pretty hopeless at this point when it comes to large infrastructure projects. We can build some nice airport terminals, but I can't think of any new major transport infrastructure that has been built in the US in the last two decades except for maybe NYC's Second Avenue Subway...and that's not even near complete yet. Every other example I can think of (like the Eastern Span of the SF Bay Bridge) is simply replacing existing infrastructure and isn't really new.

Eh, you paint with too broad a brush there. Some areas of the country do better than others at major infrastructure projects. California just isn’t one of those places.
 
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:43 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
Eh, you paint with too broad a brush there. Some areas of the country do better than others at major infrastructure projects. California just isn’t one of those places.

It's got nothing to do with the ability to plan, fund, or execute infrastructure projects. It has to do with the integration into already-existing infrastructure, which makes high speed rail totally impractical with the objective of saving time and/or money.

"Look, guys, we have this beautiful new rail terminal in the middle of the city! Come take a high speed train! What? How much time does it save? Oh, about 30 minutes because we have to run at normal line speeds through the tracks that already exist to get out of the city."

"Look, everybody, we solved the problem of integrating into the city-center by building our new HSR station in the outskirts! Now there's no slowdown! The trip saves you almost 2 hours! What? Is it a one-seat ride? No, you'll have to take a car/taxi/bus/train/subway into the city, totally negating all of the time you saved on the high-speed train."
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:34 pm

ANITIX87 wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
Eh, you paint with too broad a brush there. Some areas of the country do better than others at major infrastructure projects. California just isn’t one of those places.

It's got nothing to do with the ability to plan, fund, or execute infrastructure projects. It has to do with the integration into already-existing infrastructure, which makes high speed rail totally impractical with the objective of saving time and/or money.

Partly agree, but the ability to plan, fund, and execute has indeed shown to be a major weakness for certain states. Quite simply, at least in California’s case they hamstring themselves and inevitably balloon the cost with their own rules and regulations. Cost always takes a back seat. The CHSR plan was unrealistic from the get-go.
 
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Wed Feb 24, 2021 4:18 am

ANITIX87 wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
Eh, you paint with too broad a brush there. Some areas of the country do better than others at major infrastructure projects. California just isn’t one of those places.

It's got nothing to do with the ability to plan, fund, or execute infrastructure projects. It has to do with the integration into already-existing infrastructure, which makes high speed rail totally impractical with the objective of saving time and/or money.

"Look, guys, we have this beautiful new rail terminal in the middle of the city! Come take a high speed train! What? How much time does it save? Oh, about 30 minutes because we have to run at normal line speeds through the tracks that already exist to get out of the city."

"Look, everybody, we solved the problem of integrating into the city-center by building our new HSR station in the outskirts! Now there's no slowdown! The trip saves you almost 2 hours! What? Is it a one-seat ride? No, you'll have to take a car/taxi/bus/train/subway into the city, totally negating all of the time you saved on the high-speed train."


Interstate highways didn't exactly integrate into existing infrastructure back when they were built. A lot of urban and suburban neighborhoods were bulldozed and those that remained were forever altered. And it's not like high speed rail in Japan, China, France, Germany, etc. was easily threaded into their existing infrastructure. Japan started bullet train service in the 60s and through the decades other countries followed with their own versions of high speed rail, and they're still being expanded/improved now.
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:34 am

af773atmsp wrote:
ANITIX87 wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
Eh, you paint with too broad a brush there. Some areas of the country do better than others at major infrastructure projects. California just isn’t one of those places.

It's got nothing to do with the ability to plan, fund, or execute infrastructure projects. It has to do with the integration into already-existing infrastructure, which makes high speed rail totally impractical with the objective of saving time and/or money.

"Look, guys, we have this beautiful new rail terminal in the middle of the city! Come take a high speed train! What? How much time does it save? Oh, about 30 minutes because we have to run at normal line speeds through the tracks that already exist to get out of the city."

"Look, everybody, we solved the problem of integrating into the city-center by building our new HSR station in the outskirts! Now there's no slowdown! The trip saves you almost 2 hours! What? Is it a one-seat ride? No, you'll have to take a car/taxi/bus/train/subway into the city, totally negating all of the time you saved on the high-speed train."


Interstate highways didn't exactly integrate into existing infrastructure back when they were built. A lot of urban and suburban neighborhoods were bulldozed and those that remained were forever altered. And it's not like high speed rail in Japan, China, France, Germany, etc. was easily threaded into their existing infrastructure. Japan started bullet train service in the 60s and through the decades other countries followed with their own versions of high speed rail, and they're still being expanded/improved now.

Integrate into existing infrastructure is not inyegrate into existing communities.
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Wed Feb 24, 2021 10:50 am

af773atmsp wrote:
ANITIX87 wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
Eh, you paint with too broad a brush there. Some areas of the country do better than others at major infrastructure projects. California just isn’t one of those places.

It's got nothing to do with the ability to plan, fund, or execute infrastructure projects. It has to do with the integration into already-existing infrastructure, which makes high speed rail totally impractical with the objective of saving time and/or money.

"Look, guys, we have this beautiful new rail terminal in the middle of the city! Come take a high speed train! What? How much time does it save? Oh, about 30 minutes because we have to run at normal line speeds through the tracks that already exist to get out of the city."

"Look, everybody, we solved the problem of integrating into the city-center by building our new HSR station in the outskirts! Now there's no slowdown! The trip saves you almost 2 hours! What? Is it a one-seat ride? No, you'll have to take a car/taxi/bus/train/subway into the city, totally negating all of the time you saved on the high-speed train."


Interstate highways didn't exactly integrate into existing infrastructure back when they were built. A lot of urban and suburban neighborhoods were bulldozed and those that remained were forever altered. And it's not like high speed rail in Japan, China, France, Germany, etc. was easily threaded into their existing infrastructure. Japan started bullet train service in the 60s and through the decades other countries followed with their own versions of high speed rail, and they're still being expanded/improved now.


Interstate highways also have multiple points of access for any reasonable destination of interest and they were designed to be at least relatively convenient to use for any trip, short or long, by anyone who possessed a vehicle approved for use on them, e.g. cars, trucks, and motorcycles.
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:14 pm

c933103 wrote:
af773atmsp wrote:
ANITIX87 wrote:
It's got nothing to do with the ability to plan, fund, or execute infrastructure projects. It has to do with the integration into already-existing infrastructure, which makes high speed rail totally impractical with the objective of saving time and/or money.

"Look, guys, we have this beautiful new rail terminal in the middle of the city! Come take a high speed train! What? How much time does it save? Oh, about 30 minutes because we have to run at normal line speeds through the tracks that already exist to get out of the city."

"Look, everybody, we solved the problem of integrating into the city-center by building our new HSR station in the outskirts! Now there's no slowdown! The trip saves you almost 2 hours! What? Is it a one-seat ride? No, you'll have to take a car/taxi/bus/train/subway into the city, totally negating all of the time you saved on the high-speed train."


Interstate highways didn't exactly integrate into existing infrastructure back when they were built. A lot of urban and suburban neighborhoods were bulldozed and those that remained were forever altered. And it's not like high speed rail in Japan, China, France, Germany, etc. was easily threaded into their existing infrastructure. Japan started bullet train service in the 60s and through the decades other countries followed with their own versions of high speed rail, and they're still being expanded/improved now.

Integrate into existing infrastructure is not inyegrate into existing communities.


Yes it is. The existing communities have infrastructure, and if it's in the path of a freeway then it's just wiped out. There is no way to integrate local community infrastructure into a freeway without massive changes to the local road network.
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Wed Feb 24, 2021 1:05 pm

af773atmsp wrote:
c933103 wrote:
af773atmsp wrote:

Interstate highways didn't exactly integrate into existing infrastructure back when they were built. A lot of urban and suburban neighborhoods were bulldozed and those that remained were forever altered. And it's not like high speed rail in Japan, China, France, Germany, etc. was easily threaded into their existing infrastructure. Japan started bullet train service in the 60s and through the decades other countries followed with their own versions of high speed rail, and they're still being expanded/improved now.

Integrate into existing infrastructure is not inyegrate into existing communities.


Yes it is. The existing communities have infrastructure, and if it's in the path of a freeway then it's just wiped out. There is no way to integrate local community infrastructure into a freeway without massive changes to the local road network.

What I mean is, of course what you mentioned is also a problem, but the problem you are describing is orthogonal to the problem being presented by previous posters.
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Wed Feb 24, 2021 1:12 pm

TSS wrote:
...by anyone who possessed a vehicle approved for use on them, e.g. cars, trucks, and motorcycles.


Which is setting a pretty high bar for being able to use them. You must be 18, pass a drivers test (and all associated costs), afford a car and pay for insurance. Also a pretty sucky experience for tourists and travellers who left their car at the point of departure.
 
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Wed Feb 24, 2021 4:21 pm

VSMUT wrote:
TSS wrote:
...by anyone who possessed a vehicle approved for use on them, e.g. cars, trucks, and motorcycles.


Which is setting a pretty high bar for being able to use them. You must be 18, pass a drivers test (and all associated costs), afford a car and pay for insurance. Also a pretty sucky experience for tourists and travellers who left their car at the point of departure.


Excellent point. Also just because people can drive doesn't necessarily mean they want to or enjoy it (I'm one of those people, too bad my region's transit system is a joke). If I'm traveling around California I definitely wouldn't drive, I'd much rather take bus, plane, train, and/or high speed rail if it ever becomes reality.
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VSMUT
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Wed Feb 24, 2021 7:02 pm

af773atmsp wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
TSS wrote:
...by anyone who possessed a vehicle approved for use on them, e.g. cars, trucks, and motorcycles.


Which is setting a pretty high bar for being able to use them. You must be 18, pass a drivers test (and all associated costs), afford a car and pay for insurance. Also a pretty sucky experience for tourists and travellers who left their car at the point of departure.


Excellent point. Also just because people can drive doesn't necessarily mean they want to or enjoy it (I'm one of those people, too bad my region's transit system is a joke). If I'm traveling around California I definitely wouldn't drive, I'd much rather take bus, plane, train, and/or high speed rail if it ever becomes reality.


Indeed, the convenience factor is also there. On the train I can get some work done. In a car I can't. Some people find driving relaxing, but for just as many people, driving is an incredibly stressful experience. Efficient HSR would take commuters away from the highways, reducing congestion for those that remain and putting less wear and tear on the roads, so less disruptive roadworks are required.

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