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apodino
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Wed Feb 24, 2021 7:14 pm

af773atmsp wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
TSS wrote:
...by anyone who possessed a vehicle approved for use on them, e.g. cars, trucks, and motorcycles.


Which is setting a pretty high bar for being able to use them. You must be 18, pass a drivers test (and all associated costs), afford a car and pay for insurance. Also a pretty sucky experience for tourists and travellers who left their car at the point of departure.


Excellent point. Also just because people can drive doesn't necessarily mean they want to or enjoy it (I'm one of those people, too bad my region's transit system is a joke). If I'm traveling around California I definitely wouldn't drive, I'd much rather take bus, plane, train, and/or high speed rail if it ever becomes reality.

This. I grew up on Subways and Trains being from Boston, and now I live in the DFW Metroplex and while there is some rail infastructure here, it pales in comparison to what I have seen elsewhere. I would love to take the train more often, it just doesn't go to places that are convenient for where I need to go. And even though there is still the DFW-Houston HSR being privately funded, trying to get more rails in the Metroplex is impossible with the powerful oil lobby here in Texas. Not to mention Jerry Jones has spent millions to make sure that there is never any public transit in Arlington.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Wed Feb 24, 2021 7:55 pm

Give me my car.
Most people prefer a mode of travel at their sole command. I think people like to dress mass transit up as some fantastic thing that can replace cars (it can't) or something but to me it is just a piece in the transit puzzle. I am fine with trains and get the issue with airtravel but, and I hate to say it, once the first bomb or something like that goes off on a train, the experience will change and be more like airtravel. I truly hope it doesn't happen. Ever.

But cars are great tools for conveyance and outdo any mass transit by a long shot. There is no way to overcome the fact that cars, over long or short but particularly short distances, can transport anyone when they want to where they want with whatever they want to bring (for the most part), in comfort and safety and protected at most all points from outside weather. Mass transit includes highways that can transport anything and everything from people to hazardous good, day and night, summer or winter anywhere anytime. No train can do that. All trains require inter-modal systems to go "the final mile" and that means roads.

I can right now jump in my car and be north of the Bay Area at my kid's school in about 9 hours. This train could not do that and never will be able too. I can and do and would support the CHSR if it were to actually do and be what was voted on in the ballot measure.. I voted for it then. But I hate liars and they are making liars and fools of everyone involved in the project.

It needs to die in it current incarnation. Let them bring it back when they can present a solid use case with real numbers and data. Sell me the truth, not a lie. Right now it is just a bad jobs and political pandering project and nothing more.

Of course the fear of train supporters now is the coming of autonomous systems for and the electrification of road-bound conveyances. Once that happens a lot of the justifications used for people-trains will go away. need for trains. So they want to do anything they can to get whatever pet project they have as far along as possible hoping to get it to "the point of no return". The CHSR is already well beyond that and this single tracking change proves that.

Tugg
 
VSMUT
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Wed Feb 24, 2021 11:03 pm

Tugger wrote:
I am fine with trains and get the issue with airtravel but, and I hate to say it, once the first bomb or something like that goes off on a train, the experience will change and be more like airtravel. I truly hope it doesn't happen. Ever.


It already happened. In 1995 in Tokyo, 1996 in Paris, 2003 in Russia x2, 2004 in Madrid and Moscow, 2005 in London, 2009 in Russia, 2010 in Moscow, 2011 in Minsk, 2016 in Brussels and 2017 in St. Petersburg and London. Then the famous incident on the Thalys in 2015 where some off-duty US soldiers intervened. There were attempts to bomb trains in Washington and New York in 2009 and 2010. I haven't even touched on all the attacks in India. The experience has yet to change.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_t ... ay_systems
 
af773atmsp
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Wed Feb 24, 2021 11:30 pm

Tugger wrote:
Give me my car.
Most people prefer a mode of travel at their sole command. I think people like to dress mass transit up as some fantastic thing that can replace cars (it can't) or something but to me it is just a piece in the transit puzzle. I am fine with trains and get the issue with airtravel but, and I hate to say it, once the first bomb or something like that goes off on a train, the experience will change and be more like airtravel. I truly hope it doesn't happen. Ever.

But cars are great tools for conveyance and outdo any mass transit by a long shot. There is no way to overcome the fact that cars, over long or short but particularly short distances, can transport anyone when they want to where they want with whatever they want to bring (for the most part), in comfort and safety and protected at most all points from outside weather. Mass transit includes highways that can transport anything and everything from people to hazardous good, day and night, summer or winter anywhere anytime. No train can do that. All trains require inter-modal systems to go "the final mile" and that means roads.

I can right now jump in my car and be north of the Bay Area at my kid's school in about 9 hours. This train could not do that and never will be able too. I can and do and would support the CHSR if it were to actually do and be what was voted on in the ballot measure.. I voted for it then. But I hate liars and they are making liars and fools of everyone involved in the project.

It needs to die in it current incarnation. Let them bring it back when they can present a solid use case with real numbers and data. Sell me the truth, not a lie. Right now it is just a bad jobs and political pandering project and nothing more.

Of course the fear of train supporters now is the coming of autonomous systems for and the electrification of road-bound conveyances. Once that happens a lot of the justifications used for people-trains will go away. need for trains. So they want to do anything they can to get whatever pet project they have as far along as possible hoping to get it to "the point of no return". The CHSR is already well beyond that and this single tracking change proves that.

Tugg


You're demanding "real numbers and data", yet you don't show data to prove your point that most people prefer driving. And before you show me data about the majority of Americans driving for their travel needs, keep in mind 1) that doesn't mean all of them like to drive, and 2) the majority of them likely don't have a choice because our transit and intercity rail services are a skeletal network. If our transit and intercity rail infrastructure was like Western Europe would there be as many people driving? I highly doubt it. Yes mass transit, intercity rail, and HSR can't replace the car for all trips, but that's not the point of them. If our country wants to come out of the pandemic stronger then one important thing we need to do is have diverse modes of travel, not our status quo of either driving or flying unless you live in the Northeast or you're just lucky and the train fits your schedule.

The progress autonomous vehicle technology has made can be applied to railways as well. It's very likely easier to apply autonomous technology to railways since there's a lot less obstacles and unpredictabilities to deal with than on the road. There's already remote controlled locomotives that work in rail yards, autonomous metros like in Copenhagen, and automated people movers you typically see at airports. Putting all of our faith in autonomous cars being technologically proven and commonplace soon is not a good transportation strategy.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Thu Feb 25, 2021 5:48 am

af773atmsp wrote:
You're demanding "real numbers and data", yet you don't show data to prove your point that most people prefer driving. And before you show me data about the majority of Americans driving for their travel needs, keep in mind 1) that doesn't mean all of them like to drive, and 2) the majority of them likely don't have a choice because our transit and intercity rail services are a skeletal network. If our transit and intercity rail infrastructure was like Western Europe would there be as many people driving? I highly doubt it. Yes mass transit, intercity rail, and HSR can't replace the car for all trips, but that's not the point of them. If our country wants to come out of the pandemic stronger then one important thing we need to do is have diverse modes of travel, not our status quo of either driving or flying unless you live in the Northeast or you're just lucky and the train fits your schedule.

The progress autonomous vehicle technology has made can be applied to railways as well. It's very likely easier to apply autonomous technology to railways since there's a lot less obstacles and unpredictabilities to deal with than on the road. There's already remote controlled locomotives that work in rail yards, autonomous metros like in Copenhagen, and automated people movers you typically see at airports. Putting all of our faith in autonomous cars being technologically proven and commonplace soon is not a good transportation strategy.

Sorry, don't have much time but took 30 seconds to google:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/p ... 40510.html
See poll questions 21. f. and 24.

Also my statement was based on general national averages over many decades. I know investment in various infrastructure elements affects that however people do vote their preference when able. Also regarding "facts vs lies" and date, I was speaking to the data provided by the CHSRA which I had thought was clear however II guess I was not as you were obviously confused and for that I apologize.

Tugg
 
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seb146
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Thu Feb 25, 2021 7:35 am

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1m5LYR7aq2iD9c7m4q9jRxqoIZUgfJ5nu/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1m5vfcQ9X2v-zqn8TYAPmJmCDvESsiwOR/view?usp=sharing

I could not find a hosting site. I'm old, I'm tired, get off my lawn. California HSR is still under construction. Here is one of the overcrossings between Stockton and Fresno. And a bonus Mojave Space Port shot because, why are we really here?
 
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c933103
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Thu Feb 25, 2021 9:14 am

Tugger wrote:
Give me my car.
Most people prefer a mode of travel at their sole command. I think people like to dress mass transit up as some fantastic thing that can replace cars (it can't) or something but to me it is just a piece in the transit puzzle. I am fine with trains and get the issue with airtravel but, and I hate to say it, once the first bomb or something like that goes off on a train, the experience will change and be more like airtravel. I truly hope it doesn't happen. Ever.

But cars are great tools for conveyance and outdo any mass transit by a long shot. There is no way to overcome the fact that cars, over long or short but particularly short distances, can transport anyone when they want to where they want with whatever they want to bring (for the most part), in comfort and safety and protected at most all points from outside weather. Mass transit includes highways that can transport anything and everything from people to hazardous good, day and night, summer or winter anywhere anytime. No train can do that. All trains require inter-modal systems to go "the final mile" and that means roads.

I can right now jump in my car and be north of the Bay Area at my kid's school in about 9 hours. This train could not do that and never will be able too. I can and do and would support the CHSR if it were to actually do and be what was voted on in the ballot measure.. I voted for it then. But I hate liars and they are making liars and fools of everyone involved in the project.

It needs to die in it current incarnation. Let them bring it back when they can present a solid use case with real numbers and data. Sell me the truth, not a lie. Right now it is just a bad jobs and political pandering project and nothing more.

Of course the fear of train supporters now is the coming of autonomous systems for and the electrification of road-bound conveyances. Once that happens a lot of the justifications used for people-trains will go away. need for trains. So they want to do anything they can to get whatever pet project they have as far along as possible hoping to get it to "the point of no return". The CHSR is already well beyond that and this single tracking change proves that.

Tugg

1. No one ban cars
2. Airlines are mass transit and they have outdone cars, showing cars aren't invincible
 
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c933103
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Thu Feb 25, 2021 9:20 am

To promote HSR in the US I think we should just promote it as landplane or earthcraft to offer a familiar comparison to people in the US
 
VSMUT
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Thu Feb 25, 2021 9:42 am

Tugger wrote:
af773atmsp wrote:
You're demanding "real numbers and data", yet you don't show data to prove your point that most people prefer driving. And before you show me data about the majority of Americans driving for their travel needs, keep in mind 1) that doesn't mean all of them like to drive, and 2) the majority of them likely don't have a choice because our transit and intercity rail services are a skeletal network. If our transit and intercity rail infrastructure was like Western Europe would there be as many people driving? I highly doubt it. Yes mass transit, intercity rail, and HSR can't replace the car for all trips, but that's not the point of them. If our country wants to come out of the pandemic stronger then one important thing we need to do is have diverse modes of travel, not our status quo of either driving or flying unless you live in the Northeast or you're just lucky and the train fits your schedule.

The progress autonomous vehicle technology has made can be applied to railways as well. It's very likely easier to apply autonomous technology to railways since there's a lot less obstacles and unpredictabilities to deal with than on the road. There's already remote controlled locomotives that work in rail yards, autonomous metros like in Copenhagen, and automated people movers you typically see at airports. Putting all of our faith in autonomous cars being technologically proven and commonplace soon is not a good transportation strategy.

Sorry, don't have much time but took 30 seconds to google:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/p ... 40510.html
See poll questions 21. f. and 24.

Also my statement was based on general national averages over many decades. I know investment in various infrastructure elements affects that however people do vote their preference when able. Also regarding "facts vs lies" and date, I was speaking to the data provided by the CHSRA which I had thought was clear however II guess I was not as you were obviously confused and for that I apologize.

Tugg


I skimmed through it, and I don't see any reasoning against railways in that poll. On the contrary, several of the questions, notably number 1 (single biggest transportation problem), would actually be solved with trains. Sure, in 21f and 24 a lot of people said they prefer driving, but when people say they prefer driving it could simply come down to public transport being next to useless. Also of note, a third of those who responded don't prefer to drive. Removing a third of the cars from the roads would alleviate congestion a lot. Also of note, the number of people who prefer to drive dropped from 2005 to 2010.

This isn't an either or thing, you can have both setups in parallel. Roads will always be necessary.
 
WIederling
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:54 am

c933103 wrote:
I doubt high speed rail required minimal turning radius can fit into the little bit of flat area along the rivers there


Ever done the Pendolino route from Rome to Naples or back?
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Thu Feb 25, 2021 1:13 pm

af773atmsp wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Give me my car.
Most people prefer a mode of travel at their sole command. I think people like to dress mass transit up as some fantastic thing that can replace cars (it can't) or something but to me it is just a piece in the transit puzzle. I am fine with trains and get the issue with airtravel but, and I hate to say it, once the first bomb or something like that goes off on a train, the experience will change and be more like airtravel. I truly hope it doesn't happen. Ever.

But cars are great tools for conveyance and outdo any mass transit by a long shot. There is no way to overcome the fact that cars, over long or short but particularly short distances, can transport anyone when they want to where they want with whatever they want to bring (for the most part), in comfort and safety and protected at most all points from outside weather. Mass transit includes highways that can transport anything and everything from people to hazardous good, day and night, summer or winter anywhere anytime. No train can do that. All trains require inter-modal systems to go "the final mile" and that means roads.

I can right now jump in my car and be north of the Bay Area at my kid's school in about 9 hours. This train could not do that and never will be able too. I can and do and would support the CHSR if it were to actually do and be what was voted on in the ballot measure.. I voted for it then. But I hate liars and they are making liars and fools of everyone involved in the project.

It needs to die in it current incarnation. Let them bring it back when they can present a solid use case with real numbers and data. Sell me the truth, not a lie. Right now it is just a bad jobs and political pandering project and nothing more.

Of course the fear of train supporters now is the coming of autonomous systems for and the electrification of road-bound conveyances. Once that happens a lot of the justifications used for people-trains will go away. need for trains. So they want to do anything they can to get whatever pet project they have as far along as possible hoping to get it to "the point of no return". The CHSR is already well beyond that and this single tracking change proves that.

Tugg


You're demanding "real numbers and data", yet you don't show data to prove your point that most people prefer driving. And before you show me data about the majority of Americans driving for their travel needs, keep in mind 1) that doesn't mean all of them like to drive, and 2) the majority of them likely don't have a choice because our transit and intercity rail services are a skeletal network. If our transit and intercity rail infrastructure was like Western Europe would there be as many people driving? I highly doubt it. Yes mass transit, intercity rail, and HSR can't replace the car for all trips, but that's not the point of them. If our country wants to come out of the pandemic stronger then one important thing we need to do is have diverse modes of travel, not our status quo of either driving or flying unless you live in the Northeast or you're just lucky and the train fits your schedule.

The progress autonomous vehicle technology has made can be applied to railways as well. It's very likely easier to apply autonomous technology to railways since there's a lot less obstacles and unpredictabilities to deal with than on the road. There's already remote controlled locomotives that work in rail yards, autonomous metros like in Copenhagen, and automated people movers you typically see at airports. Putting all of our faith in autonomous cars being technologically proven and commonplace soon is not a good transportation strategy.


I think autonomous taxis will be the death knell for public transportation, at least outside New York (within the US).

Several factors play in. (1) No human driver to pay (2) Smart traffic signals can increase speeds and relieve congestion (3) pods go anywhere you want to go, when you need to.

Pods (or vans) will do the same job as public transit, faster and cheaper than public transit can. do it. It won't be justifiable to continue to operate public transportation. There won't be any customers.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:09 pm

For buses to pencil out the seating required is economy minus, even standing, which is acceptable for total rides shorter than 30 minutes. Buses become really popular when 1) the stops are only a few minutes walking from origin/destination, 2) close to 10 minutes frequencies, and 3) transfers are 3-5 minutes.

Are there any decent futurist studies on the lane capacity of autonomous lanes, in persons per hour. I am guessing it could be a greater amount than a rail track. Intracity 25-45 mph, and intercity 60-90 mph with comfortable seating, as much space/privacy as you want to pay for, it could be awesome.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:26 pm

VSMUT wrote:
I skimmed through it, and I don't see any reasoning against railways in that poll. On the contrary, several of the questions, notably number 1 (single biggest transportation problem), would actually be solved with trains. Sure, in 21f and 24 a lot of people said they prefer driving, but when people say they prefer driving it could simply come down to public transport being next to useless. Also of note, a third of those who responded don't prefer to drive. Removing a third of the cars from the roads would alleviate congestion a lot. Also of note, the number of people who prefer to drive dropped from 2005 to 2010.

This isn't an either or thing, you can have both setups in parallel. Roads will always be necessary.

I never reasoned that railways should be built or part of the transit infrastructure. Just that the CHSR is not viable and that cars do what what it is purporting to do. As I said, I supported it but it no longer what was promised, what was voted on. So the funding needs to end on the current version of this.

Tugg
 
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c933103
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:48 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
af773atmsp wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Give me my car.
Most people prefer a mode of travel at their sole command. I think people like to dress mass transit up as some fantastic thing that can replace cars (it can't) or something but to me it is just a piece in the transit puzzle. I am fine with trains and get the issue with airtravel but, and I hate to say it, once the first bomb or something like that goes off on a train, the experience will change and be more like airtravel. I truly hope it doesn't happen. Ever.

But cars are great tools for conveyance and outdo any mass transit by a long shot. There is no way to overcome the fact that cars, over long or short but particularly short distances, can transport anyone when they want to where they want with whatever they want to bring (for the most part), in comfort and safety and protected at most all points from outside weather. Mass transit includes highways that can transport anything and everything from people to hazardous good, day and night, summer or winter anywhere anytime. No train can do that. All trains require inter-modal systems to go "the final mile" and that means roads.

I can right now jump in my car and be north of the Bay Area at my kid's school in about 9 hours. This train could not do that and never will be able too. I can and do and would support the CHSR if it were to actually do and be what was voted on in the ballot measure.. I voted for it then. But I hate liars and they are making liars and fools of everyone involved in the project.

It needs to die in it current incarnation. Let them bring it back when they can present a solid use case with real numbers and data. Sell me the truth, not a lie. Right now it is just a bad jobs and political pandering project and nothing more.

Of course the fear of train supporters now is the coming of autonomous systems for and the electrification of road-bound conveyances. Once that happens a lot of the justifications used for people-trains will go away. need for trains. So they want to do anything they can to get whatever pet project they have as far along as possible hoping to get it to "the point of no return". The CHSR is already well beyond that and this single tracking change proves that.

Tugg


You're demanding "real numbers and data", yet you don't show data to prove your point that most people prefer driving. And before you show me data about the majority of Americans driving for their travel needs, keep in mind 1) that doesn't mean all of them like to drive, and 2) the majority of them likely don't have a choice because our transit and intercity rail services are a skeletal network. If our transit and intercity rail infrastructure was like Western Europe would there be as many people driving? I highly doubt it. Yes mass transit, intercity rail, and HSR can't replace the car for all trips, but that's not the point of them. If our country wants to come out of the pandemic stronger then one important thing we need to do is have diverse modes of travel, not our status quo of either driving or flying unless you live in the Northeast or you're just lucky and the train fits your schedule.

The progress autonomous vehicle technology has made can be applied to railways as well. It's very likely easier to apply autonomous technology to railways since there's a lot less obstacles and unpredictabilities to deal with than on the road. There's already remote controlled locomotives that work in rail yards, autonomous metros like in Copenhagen, and automated people movers you typically see at airports. Putting all of our faith in autonomous cars being technologically proven and commonplace soon is not a good transportation strategy.


I think autonomous taxis will be the death knell for public transportation, at least outside New York (within the US).

Several factors play in. (1) No human driver to pay (2) Smart traffic signals can increase speeds and relieve congestion (3) pods go anywhere you want to go, when you need to.

Pods (or vans) will do the same job as public transit, faster and cheaper than public transit can. do it. It won't be justifiable to continue to operate public transportation. There won't be any customers.

If autonomous cars become reality then public transportation will also become autonomous.
Pods and vans that are autonomous is just another implementation of public transportation.
And private vehicles will always be less effective than shared vehicles due to physics with the amount of power need to spent per person.
As for higher capacity due to autonomous driving, there's still a limit required in case any vehicle can suddenly fail and stop and the succeeding vehicle need to have sufficient time to stop without hitting it.
 
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c933103
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Thu Feb 25, 2021 4:04 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
For buses to pencil out the seating required is economy minus, even standing, which is acceptable for total rides shorter than 30 minutes. Buses become really popular when 1) the stops are only a few minutes walking from origin/destination, 2) close to 10 minutes frequencies, and 3) transfers are 3-5 minutes.

From my experience in Hong Kong, I think a successful bus route are usually:
- Directly connect two area together through highway and bypass congested area
- Have less than 10 stops and spend less than 15 minutes before/after the bus use highway
- Does not run in parallel with higher speed rail transit
- Have headway below 15 minutes
- Connect where people live and where people attend directly
But I don't think most place on earth have enough density support such sort of bus route structure as a majority part of the city bus network...
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Thu Feb 25, 2021 5:32 pm

Ive said it once, I've said it 36 times. Interconnected regional HSR with schedule coordination from one region to the next is the way forward in the US.

Let's say CA HSR involves SF/LA/SD/Sac/Vegas. That connects to another system with Vegas/Phoenix/SLC, and so on. Just as Texas Central can eventually expand into OKC and MSY just based off of proximity.
 
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c933103
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Thu Feb 25, 2021 5:38 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
Ive said it once, I've said it 36 times. Interconnected regional HSR with schedule coordination from one region to the next is the way forward in the US.

Let's say CA HSR involves SF/LA/SD/Sac/Vegas. That connects to another system with Vegas/Phoenix/SLC, and so on. Just as Texas Central can eventually expand into OKC and MSY just based off of proximity.

No.
First of all the Texas Central isn't compatible with California HSR in things like loading gauge, according to my understanding.
Second, the advantage of high speed rail over air transportation vanish for trip beyond 4 or 5 hours, and trip from American Pacific coast across Rocky Mountain into major Texas cities will take longer than that
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Thu Feb 25, 2021 6:11 pm

c933103 wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
Ive said it once, I've said it 36 times. Interconnected regional HSR with schedule coordination from one region to the next is the way forward in the US.

Let's say CA HSR involves SF/LA/SD/Sac/Vegas. That connects to another system with Vegas/Phoenix/SLC, and so on. Just as Texas Central can eventually expand into OKC and MSY just based off of proximity.

No.
First of all the Texas Central isn't compatible with California HSR in things like loading gauge, according to my understanding.
Second, the advantage of high speed rail over air transportation vanish for trip beyond 4 or 5 hours, and trip from American Pacific coast across Rocky Mountain into major Texas cities will take longer than that

I never said it would make air travel vanish, but it would have an impact on regional flying if done correctly. And I'm definitely not saying someone is going to travel from SD to Denver via multiple interconnected rail networks, but it does help connectivity when someone living in Ogden, UT wants to get to Ft. Collins or Pueblo,CO if Ogden is in a different regional system but can connect in SLC or Grand Junction to a system that can take them to COS. Similarly to how you can take the SNCF to Stuttgart then take an ICE train to Zurich, and the like.
 
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seb146
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Thu Feb 25, 2021 6:46 pm

Any hope for short and medium haul high speed rail vanished in the 1970s. Freight lines have always been given preference since Amtrak was founded. And that is a shame. As much as I love the multi-day trips across the country, there would be much more profit in short and medium trips as compared to flying or driving. Many stations are in or near the center of town which is near transit connections. But, we have always been told that rail travel is unreliable and slow so cars and air are the only choices.

When I lived in STS and had appointments in SFO, I would very often drive the El Cerrito BART or the Larkspur Ferry. Even though it is more convenient to have a car, I didn't have to deal with paying outrageous parking fees, fighting traffic in the city, sitting in stopped traffic. Same in PDX and SEA. I have yet to try LAX and SAN rail but those seem about the same.
 
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c933103
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:15 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
c933103 wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
Ive said it once, I've said it 36 times. Interconnected regional HSR with schedule coordination from one region to the next is the way forward in the US.

Let's say CA HSR involves SF/LA/SD/Sac/Vegas. That connects to another system with Vegas/Phoenix/SLC, and so on. Just as Texas Central can eventually expand into OKC and MSY just based off of proximity.

No.
First of all the Texas Central isn't compatible with California HSR in things like loading gauge, according to my understanding.
Second, the advantage of high speed rail over air transportation vanish for trip beyond 4 or 5 hours, and trip from American Pacific coast across Rocky Mountain into major Texas cities will take longer than that

I never said it would make air travel vanish, but it would have an impact on regional flying if done correctly. And I'm definitely not saying someone is going to travel from SD to Denver via multiple interconnected rail networks, but it does help connectivity when someone living in Ogden, UT wants to get to Ft. Collins or Pueblo,CO if Ogden is in a different regional system but can connect in SLC or Grand Junction to a system that can take them to COS. Similarly to how you can take the SNCF to Stuttgart then take an ICE train to Zurich, and the like.

I mean the "advant of rail travel" would vanish for longer trip, not that air travel would vanish.
There are still people who would travel on longer HSR routes but they usually stop being the most prominent choice and thus they failed to attract most passengers along the route.
Obviously there will still be demand for the smaller cities in-between but the total quantity of travel demand of such smaller cities will also be less.
European cities are much closer together, that each of their range of 4 hour HSR travel distance can overlap and in turn be foundation of a nation-wide HSR network, it'd be difficult to say the same in the US.


seb146 wrote:
Any hope for short and medium haul high speed rail vanished in the 1970s. Freight lines have always been given preference since Amtrak was founded. And that is a shame. As much as I love the multi-day trips across the country, there would be much more profit in short and medium trips as compared to flying or driving. Many stations are in or near the center of town which is near transit connections. But, we have always been told that rail travel is unreliable and slow so cars and air are the only choices.

When I lived in STS and had appointments in SFO, I would very often drive the El Cerrito BART or the Larkspur Ferry. Even though it is more convenient to have a car, I didn't have to deal with paying outrageous parking fees, fighting traffic in the city, sitting in stopped traffic. Same in PDX and SEA. I have yet to try LAX and SAN rail but those seem about the same.

A number of countries have their existing network too occupied for other uses, hence they create a mew company to build a totally new network of HSR. It doesn't have to depend on existing rail.
 
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c933103
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Tue Mar 09, 2021 10:40 pm

I got the following message from USHSR association:

Assembly Hearing Tomorrow: California High-Speed Rail Authority’s Draft 2020 Business Plan




There will be a California Assembly Hearing on the California High-Speed Rail Authority’s Draft 2020 Business Plan on Wednesday, March 10, 2021 @ 9:00am.


Please lend your voice and testify supporting the Business Plan over the phone during the public comment period. Call in 877-692-8957, access code: 242 62 37



Encourage the Assembly to stay the course and complete the 171 miles in the Central Valley fully electrified.




What:  Assembly Hearing: California High-Speed Rail Authority’s Draft 2020 Business Plan

When: 9:00 AM (Pacific) Wednesday, March 10, 2021

Where: 877-692-8957, access code: 242 62 37



More information:


-Watch the meeting by live stream: Link

-View the Business Plan: Link

-Prop 1A factsheet: Link

-Submit written testimony emails (send to both so both committees receive it):

[email protected] and [email protected]

 
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Tugger
Posts: 11478
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Wed Mar 10, 2021 2:22 am

c933103 wrote:
I got the following message from USHSR association:

Assembly Hearing Tomorrow: California High-Speed Rail Authority’s Draft 2020 Business Plan




There will be a California Assembly Hearing on the California High-Speed Rail Authority’s Draft 2020 Business Plan on Wednesday, March 10, 2021 @ 9:00am.


Please lend your voice and testify supporting the Business Plan over the phone during the public comment period. Call in 877-692-8957, access code: 242 62 37



Encourage the Assembly to stay the course and complete the 171 miles in the Central Valley fully electrified.




What:  Assembly Hearing: California High-Speed Rail Authority’s Draft 2020 Business Plan

When: 9:00 AM (Pacific) Wednesday, March 10, 2021

Where: 877-692-8957, access code: 242 62 37



More information:


-Watch the meeting by live stream: Link

-View the Business Plan: Link

-Prop 1A factsheet: Link

-Submit written testimony emails (send to both so both committees receive it):

[email protected] and [email protected]


Great, I can call in and tell them to can it.

Tugg
 
N757ST
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Wed Mar 10, 2021 3:39 am

seb146 wrote:
Any hope for short and medium haul high speed rail vanished in the 1970s. Freight lines have always been given preference since Amtrak was founded. And that is a shame. As much as I love the multi-day trips across the country, there would be much more profit in short and medium trips as compared to flying or driving. Many stations are in or near the center of town which is near transit connections. But, we have always been told that rail travel is unreliable and slow so cars and air are the only choices.


There is the minor detail that the freight railroads own the vast majority of the trackage outside the NEC, that’s why they are “given preference”, they own the track. Building a dedicated national high speed rail system would cost trillions of dollars, tens of billions for annual maintenance, and would take decades to compete.... all to still be waaay slower then a jet over most distances. No thanks.

Now the NEC actually has the density to make HSR work, but to upgrade to true high speed rail you likely need to build a new right of way between NYC and BOS, good luck with that.
 
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seb146
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Wed Mar 10, 2021 5:58 am

N757ST wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Any hope for short and medium haul high speed rail vanished in the 1970s. Freight lines have always been given preference since Amtrak was founded. And that is a shame. As much as I love the multi-day trips across the country, there would be much more profit in short and medium trips as compared to flying or driving. Many stations are in or near the center of town which is near transit connections. But, we have always been told that rail travel is unreliable and slow so cars and air are the only choices.


There is the minor detail that the freight railroads own the vast majority of the trackage outside the NEC, that’s why they are “given preference”, they own the track. Building a dedicated national high speed rail system would cost trillions of dollars, tens of billions for annual maintenance, and would take decades to compete.... all to still be waaay slower then a jet over most distances. No thanks.

Now the NEC actually has the density to make HSR work, but to upgrade to true high speed rail you likely need to build a new right of way between NYC and BOS, good luck with that.


HSR will not work nation wide. I completely agree. HSR must be only in corridors. EUG-PDX-SEA and SFO-LAX and LAX-LAS and MCI-STL-CHI with a few stops at larger communities. There are people who live in the San Juaquin Valley that work in SJC and SFO and OAK. Rail makes sense over these short distances and saves wear and tear on the car and person for driving.
 
PHLspecial
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Thu Mar 11, 2021 12:12 am

seb146 wrote:
HSR will not work nation wide. I completely agree. HSR must be only in corridors. EUG-PDX-SEA and SFO-LAX and LAX-LAS and MCI-STL-CHI with a few stops at larger communities. There are people who live in the San Juaquin Valley that work in SJC and SFO and OAK. Rail makes sense over these short distances and saves wear and tear on the car and person for driving.

Absolutely agreed with this. I think Amtrak has identify corridors that they want to focus on. For that matter any passenger rail company. What is also critical is the commuter rail as you pointed out. Commuter rail or regional rail would be a massive benefit for large cities and suburbs that are connected to it.
 
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stl07
Posts: 2912
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Fri Mar 12, 2021 9:29 am

PHLspecial wrote:
seb146 wrote:
HSR will not work nation wide. I completely agree. HSR must be only in corridors. EUG-PDX-SEA and SFO-LAX and LAX-LAS and MCI-STL-CHI with a few stops at larger communities. There are people who live in the San Juaquin Valley that work in SJC and SFO and OAK. Rail makes sense over these short distances and saves wear and tear on the car and person for driving.

Absolutely agreed with this. I think Amtrak has identify corridors that they want to focus on. For that matter any passenger rail company. What is also critical is the commuter rail as you pointed out. Commuter rail or regional rail would be a massive benefit for large cities and suburbs that are connected to it.

While it is well known that amtrak routes bleed money, routes that Seb mentioned such as STL-CHI actually make money
 
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c933103
Posts: 5725
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Fri Mar 12, 2021 10:02 am

seb146 wrote:
N757ST wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Any hope for short and medium haul high speed rail vanished in the 1970s. Freight lines have always been given preference since Amtrak was founded. And that is a shame. As much as I love the multi-day trips across the country, there would be much more profit in short and medium trips as compared to flying or driving. Many stations are in or near the center of town which is near transit connections. But, we have always been told that rail travel is unreliable and slow so cars and air are the only choices.


There is the minor detail that the freight railroads own the vast majority of the trackage outside the NEC, that’s why they are “given preference”, they own the track. Building a dedicated national high speed rail system would cost trillions of dollars, tens of billions for annual maintenance, and would take decades to compete.... all to still be waaay slower then a jet over most distances. No thanks.

Now the NEC actually has the density to make HSR work, but to upgrade to true high speed rail you likely need to build a new right of way between NYC and BOS, good luck with that.


HSR will not work nation wide. I completely agree. HSR must be only in corridors. EUG-PDX-SEA and SFO-LAX and LAX-LAS and MCI-STL-CHI with a few stops at larger communities. There are people who live in the San Juaquin Valley that work in SJC and SFO and OAK. Rail makes sense over these short distances and saves wear and tear on the car and person for driving.

Image
This is apparently from 2001
 
N757ST
Posts: 1119
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 6:00 am

Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Fri Mar 12, 2021 10:49 am

c933103 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
N757ST wrote:

There is the minor detail that the freight railroads own the vast majority of the trackage outside the NEC, that’s why they are “given preference”, they own the track. Building a dedicated national high speed rail system would cost trillions of dollars, tens of billions for annual maintenance, and would take decades to compete.... all to still be waaay slower then a jet over most distances. No thanks.

Now the NEC actually has the density to make HSR work, but to upgrade to true high speed rail you likely need to build a new right of way between NYC and BOS, good luck with that.


HSR will not work nation wide. I completely agree. HSR must be only in corridors. EUG-PDX-SEA and SFO-LAX and LAX-LAS and MCI-STL-CHI with a few stops at larger communities. There are people who live in the San Juaquin Valley that work in SJC and SFO and OAK. Rail makes sense over these short distances and saves wear and tear on the car and person for driving.

Image
This is apparently from 2001


Of note, none of those corridors was actually planned to be HSR, but rather “high speed rail”. Some of those corridors have been upgraded to “high speed rail”, including segments around Chicago. True HSR is an electrified, dedicated grade separated engineered system that can run at over 155mph. It is EXTREMELY expensive. Amtrak’s “high speed rail” is trackage, signaling, upgraded grade crossings, and positive train control that allows diesel electric hauled trains with suitable equipment to run at 110 mph over certain stretches of trackage shared (owned by) with freight companies.
 
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seb146
Posts: 23956
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Fri Mar 12, 2021 7:34 pm

N757ST wrote:
c933103 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

HSR will not work nation wide. I completely agree. HSR must be only in corridors. EUG-PDX-SEA and SFO-LAX and LAX-LAS and MCI-STL-CHI with a few stops at larger communities. There are people who live in the San Juaquin Valley that work in SJC and SFO and OAK. Rail makes sense over these short distances and saves wear and tear on the car and person for driving.

Image
This is apparently from 2001


Of note, none of those corridors was actually planned to be HSR, but rather “high speed rail”. Some of those corridors have been upgraded to “high speed rail”, including segments around Chicago. True HSR is an electrified, dedicated grade separated engineered system that can run at over 155mph. It is EXTREMELY expensive. Amtrak’s “high speed rail” is trackage, signaling, upgraded grade crossings, and positive train control that allows diesel electric hauled trains with suitable equipment to run at 110 mph over certain stretches of trackage shared (owned by) with freight companies.


I thought HSR=high speed rail?

Speed limits across the railroad system in the United States is as high as 79MPH. With upgrades, trains along the Cascades corridor and NEC could reach as high as 110MPH. We can't have dedicated passenger only tracks anyway because of NIMBYs and people who would not live near the corridor don't want their tax dollars going to something they would "never use".
 
CowAnon
Posts: 216
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:03 am

Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Sat Mar 13, 2021 12:08 am

c933103 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
N757ST wrote:

There is the minor detail that the freight railroads own the vast majority of the trackage outside the NEC, that’s why they are “given preference”, they own the track. Building a dedicated national high speed rail system would cost trillions of dollars, tens of billions for annual maintenance, and would take decades to compete.... all to still be waaay slower then a jet over most distances. No thanks.

Now the NEC actually has the density to make HSR work, but to upgrade to true high speed rail you likely need to build a new right of way between NYC and BOS, good luck with that.


HSR will not work nation wide. I completely agree. HSR must be only in corridors. EUG-PDX-SEA and SFO-LAX and LAX-LAS and MCI-STL-CHI with a few stops at larger communities. There are people who live in the San Juaquin Valley that work in SJC and SFO and OAK. Rail makes sense over these short distances and saves wear and tear on the car and person for driving.

Image
This is apparently from 2001

Somebody doesn't like Tennessee? Memphis-Nashville is an obvious corridor. Arizona should be able to support Tucson-Phoenix-Las Vegas as well.

I think a full two-dimensional network is viable population and distance-wise everywhere east of the Mississippi River and into the middle/southern Great Plains. Except in the Appalachian areas, it's also much easier topographically to build there. But the the biggest barriers are probably political. Republican governors refused high-speed rail funding for their states from the 2009 stimulus, and I imagine those politicians will be even more entrenched against it in the future.

Another point about the funding of large infrastructure ... following approval of Seattle-area light rail in 1996, there were also large cost overruns, and the project was nearly canceled. After a new project manager was brought in, parts of the project were cut, and more realistic estimates of cost were made, which saved the whole enterprise. Since then, there have been 2 more light-rail expansions approved by the voters. So my guess is that California will eventually have a good high-speed rail network, but they're just going to have to ride out some bad publicity until then.
 
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c933103
Posts: 5725
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Sat Mar 13, 2021 2:24 am

CowAnon wrote:
c933103 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

HSR will not work nation wide. I completely agree. HSR must be only in corridors. EUG-PDX-SEA and SFO-LAX and LAX-LAS and MCI-STL-CHI with a few stops at larger communities. There are people who live in the San Juaquin Valley that work in SJC and SFO and OAK. Rail makes sense over these short distances and saves wear and tear on the car and person for driving.

Image
This is apparently from 2001

Somebody doesn't like Tennessee? Memphis-Nashville is an obvious corridor. Arizona should be able to support Tucson-Phoenix-Las Vegas as well.

I think a full two-dimensional network is viable population and distance-wise everywhere east of the Mississippi River and into the middle/southern Great Plains. Except in the Appalachian areas, it's also much easier topographically to build there. But the the biggest barriers are probably political. Republican governors refused high-speed rail funding for their states from the 2009 stimulus, and I imagine those politicians will be even more entrenched against it in the future.

Another point about the funding of large infrastructure ... following approval of Seattle-area light rail in 1996, there were also large cost overruns, and the project was nearly canceled. After a new project manager was brought in, parts of the project were cut, and more realistic estimates of cost were made, which saved the whole enterprise. Since then, there have been 2 more light-rail expansions approved by the voters. So my guess is that California will eventually have a good high-speed rail network, but they're just going to have to ride out some bad publicity until then.

Image
I'm guessing, it simply look at major cities across American, and then identify existing Amtrak corridor outward from those cities, to become a high speed rail corridor, without thinking about possibility of new service like those you mentioned, and didn't look at corridor that aren't attached to major cities.
I guess they could try to get conventional Amtrak service first.
https://www.thetransportpolitic.com/200 ... t-happens/
 
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seb146
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Sat Mar 13, 2021 5:57 am

CowAnon wrote:
c933103 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

HSR will not work nation wide. I completely agree. HSR must be only in corridors. EUG-PDX-SEA and SFO-LAX and LAX-LAS and MCI-STL-CHI with a few stops at larger communities. There are people who live in the San Juaquin Valley that work in SJC and SFO and OAK. Rail makes sense over these short distances and saves wear and tear on the car and person for driving.

Image
This is apparently from 2001

Somebody doesn't like Tennessee? Memphis-Nashville is an obvious corridor. Arizona should be able to support Tucson-Phoenix-Las Vegas as well.

I think a full two-dimensional network is viable population and distance-wise everywhere east of the Mississippi River and into the middle/southern Great Plains. Except in the Appalachian areas, it's also much easier topographically to build there. But the the biggest barriers are probably political. Republican governors refused high-speed rail funding for their states from the 2009 stimulus, and I imagine those politicians will be even more entrenched against it in the future.

Another point about the funding of large infrastructure ... following approval of Seattle-area light rail in 1996, there were also large cost overruns, and the project was nearly canceled. After a new project manager was brought in, parts of the project were cut, and more realistic estimates of cost were made, which saved the whole enterprise. Since then, there have been 2 more light-rail expansions approved by the voters. So my guess is that California will eventually have a good high-speed rail network, but they're just going to have to ride out some bad publicity until then.


Some corridors will not work. How much traffic is there between two specific points? BNA-MEM for example. I could see some kind of state run commuter rail PHX-TUC but not to LAS.
 
CowAnon
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Sat Mar 13, 2021 11:31 pm

seb146 wrote:
I could see some kind of state run commuter rail PHX-TUC but not to LAS.

I threw in Las Vegas because it currently lacks a direct freeway connection between there and Phoenix. There's a plan to change that (sorta), but it should be contingent on building a parallel HSR connection at the same time IMO.

Long wait for I-11 to Vegas continues (from a Peoria, AZ newspaper on 9/8/2020)
 
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c933103
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Sun Mar 14, 2021 7:23 am

CowAnon wrote:
seb146 wrote:
I could see some kind of state run commuter rail PHX-TUC but not to LAS.

I threw in Las Vegas because it currently lacks a direct freeway connection between there and Phoenix. There's a plan to change that (sorta), but it should be contingent on building a parallel HSR connection at the same time IMO.

Long wait for I-11 to Vegas continues (from a Peoria, AZ newspaper on 9/8/2020)

One thing to note is that, while I think Arizona can support a high speed rail to Las Vegas + California I don't think it can support multiple such line.
Phoneix City can opt to build a line to either San Diego, Las Vegas, or directly to Los Angeles, either options will get them connected to all three cities through CAHSR and XpressWest rail project.
But it have to choose which alignment would be cater the most demand and be the most efficient?
Connecting to Las Vegas would also allow through service to Los Angeles via XpressWest but the distance, travel time, ans fare will also be more worse than the other two options, and I cannot see Arizona having enough demand to support a second high speed rail in such case.
The extended length of connecting through Las Vegas would also make it impossible to reach San Francisco within about 4-5 hours and would result in most travellers on such journey continues to fly instead
 
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johnboy
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Tue Mar 16, 2021 8:40 pm

Okie wrote:

At least there is in the Covid relief bill there is $14B going to California for transportation with $978M going to the Bay Area Transportation to build a line between Downtown San Fran to Menlo Park for Facebook employee's who work from home or off shore.


News to me.

The only project I know about in that area is Caltrain electrification which happens to go all the way to San Jose and environs, and which also happens to be there already.
 
CowAnon
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:42 am

Biden released money to the CA HSR effort today:

Biden restores $929 million for California high-speed rail withheld by Trump

And here's another projected US HSR map, from Pedestrian Observations:

Image

I'd recommend that site as a good read for those of us who are unfamiliar with how HSR in other countries are funded and built.
https://pedestrianobservations.com/cate ... peed-rail/
https://pedestrianobservations.com/2021 ... peed-rail/
 
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c933103
Posts: 5725
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Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Sat Jun 12, 2021 5:10 am

CowAnon wrote:
Biden released money to the CA HSR effort today:

Biden restores $929 million for California high-speed rail withheld by Trump

And here's another projected US HSR map, from Pedestrian Observations:

Image

I'd recommend that site as a good read for those of us who are unfamiliar with how HSR in other countries are funded and built.
https://pedestrianobservations.com/cate ... peed-rail/
https://pedestrianobservations.com/2021 ... peed-rail/

The map is more like, where he think there are enough demand to build HSR, than any projection
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 15989
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Sat Jun 12, 2021 5:37 am

c933103 wrote:
CowAnon wrote:
Biden released money to the CA HSR effort today:

Biden restores $929 million for California high-speed rail withheld by Trump

And here's another projected US HSR map, from Pedestrian Observations:

Image

I'd recommend that site as a good read for those of us who are unfamiliar with how HSR in other countries are funded and built.
https://pedestrianobservations.com/cate ... peed-rail/
https://pedestrianobservations.com/2021 ... peed-rail/

The map is more like, where he think there are enough demand to build HSR, than any projection


Seriously. This map is the mother of all pipe dreams.
 
cpd
Posts: 6802
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:46 am

Re: Latest in the California High Speed Rail Saga: Single-Track Operation

Sat Jun 12, 2021 10:59 am

N757ST wrote:
c933103 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

HSR will not work nation wide. I completely agree. HSR must be only in corridors. EUG-PDX-SEA and SFO-LAX and LAX-LAS and MCI-STL-CHI with a few stops at larger communities. There are people who live in the San Juaquin Valley that work in SJC and SFO and OAK. Rail makes sense over these short distances and saves wear and tear on the car and person for driving.

Image
This is apparently from 2001


Of note, none of those corridors was actually planned to be HSR, but rather “high speed rail”. Some of those corridors have been upgraded to “high speed rail”, including segments around Chicago. True HSR is an electrified, dedicated grade separated engineered system that can run at over 155mph. It is EXTREMELY expensive. Amtrak’s “high speed rail” is trackage, signaling, upgraded grade crossings, and positive train control that allows diesel electric hauled trains with suitable equipment to run at 110 mph over certain stretches of trackage shared (owned by) with freight companies.


True High Speed Rail also runs on normal tracks when it needs to and splits off onto high speed lines where needed. But otherwise the trains can run on normal classic lines. Some of them are capable of multiple voltages too.

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