Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 14957
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:35 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
What are the other countries' view on human rights? My understanding is they won't simply see it as different cultural norms?

So the answer is let countries like Australia or Canada deal with China's pressure individually? Wouldn't it be worse?


You would have to ask them. That’s one of the problems with how the world works - certain countries agree on values and what to cooperate on, then a different leader comes in and says ‘nah not anymore’ and then the relations need to be rebuilt.

As for human rights, the consensus is longstanding and is restated time and again: we stand for x,y,z in the west. European countries speak more forcefully in terms of ‘shoulds’ than the US because they have fewer deep entanglements with states that ignore human rights (ex-US and Saudi Arabia), but PRC is a different animal. Everyone says what’s happening there is wrong, but the conversation ends there. The victims are Muslim and only SJWs are very active about that. Even Gulf countries have been pretty quiet about the Uighur issue. That speaks to PRC’s consolidation of influence over the last 15 years.


Visit Africa where the French military props up all kinds of bad actors in power


I was speaking of the EU in general, not any particular country. The UK and France have their own problems of course. Every permanent member of the UNSC is an arms dealer or supporter of conveniently bad actors, which is why the body has no credibility IMO. Russia, China, the US, UK or France can all veto any action or criticism against themselves - total BS.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 23719
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Fri Feb 26, 2021 8:06 pm

Re-reading the article, it was Biden quoting Xi. So, technically, Biden did say it, but, in context, he said Xi said. Skipping a step there....

Quoting Biden: the central principle of Xi Jinping is that there must be a united, tightly controlled China, and he uses his rationale for the things he does based on that.

Biden again: Well, there will be repercussions for China, and he knows that. What I’m doing is making clear that we are going to reassert our role as spokespersons for human rights at the UN and other agencies that have an impact on their attitudes

Biden: But it’s much more complicated than that, I shouldn’t try to talk China policy in 10 minutes on television here.

So, it seems right wing media is AGAIN twisting everything around to play to their base.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
acecrackshot
Posts: 215
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2020 4:22 am

Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Fri Feb 26, 2021 8:32 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
It’s a realistic view. What can actually change so long as PRC is a permanent UNSC voter and one of the most powerful voices in other UN committees? PRC, US, UK, France, and Russia get to decide what goes because they are the permanent members. This is the de facto post-WW2 setup of the world.


No, saying "we'll bitch about it at the UN, maybe" is a punt.

That's fine. Realpolitick and all that. But its inconsistent to run on a human rights position, and realpolitick position, at the same time.
 
acecrackshot
Posts: 215
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2020 4:22 am

Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Fri Feb 26, 2021 8:34 pm

Aaron747 wrote:

Yes but at this time that means aligning with other countries’ views on human rights after the last administration failed to. There will not be any coordinated economic action involving Germany, Canada, Australia etc aligned against PRC when the global economy is weak.


Except both Australia and Canada have recently called out the Chinese actions for what they are.

We are the ones missing in action.
 
acecrackshot
Posts: 215
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2020 4:22 am

Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Fri Feb 26, 2021 8:36 pm

seb146 wrote:

So, it seems right wing media is AGAIN twisting everything around to play to their base.


Right wing media?

The media has been anti-Trump for four years, to the point of clearly mis-stating him when they could.

Biden has said we are going to complain at the UN about China. Complain at the UN about another UNSC Permanent Member.
 
acecrackshot
Posts: 215
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2020 4:22 am

Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Fri Feb 26, 2021 8:38 pm

seb146 wrote:
So, Biden speaks out AGAINST China and Republicans are disappointed that Biden speaks out against China or something? Methinks MAGA is grasping at straws to simply gin up the base....


"Speaks out?"

Hilarious.

Much like Obama "spoke out" when the Chinese essentially claimed the South China Sea and caused untold environmental damage in the process?
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 14957
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Fri Feb 26, 2021 9:14 pm

acecrackshot wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
It’s a realistic view. What can actually change so long as PRC is a permanent UNSC voter and one of the most powerful voices in other UN committees? PRC, US, UK, France, and Russia get to decide what goes because they are the permanent members. This is the de facto post-WW2 setup of the world.


No, saying "we'll bitch about it at the UN, maybe" is a punt.

That's fine. Realpolitick and all that. But its inconsistent to run on a human rights position, and realpolitick position, at the same time.


Singing the human rights tune while playing the realpolitik march in the next room has been US foreign policy post-WW2 in a nutshell - convenient bad actors (as long as they aren’t red), overturned elections and all that jazz. You want to cry ‘that’s inconsistent’ now? :lol:

And realpolitik has no ‘ck’ - it’s German if ya don’t know.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 14957
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Fri Feb 26, 2021 9:16 pm

acecrackshot wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Yes but at this time that means aligning with other countries’ views on human rights after the last administration failed to. There will not be any coordinated economic action involving Germany, Canada, Australia etc aligned against PRC when the global economy is weak.


Except both Australia and Canada have recently called out the Chinese actions for what they are.

We are the ones missing in action.


Yeah nah, Australia is still coming round on official recognizance.

https://amp.sbs.com.au/eds/news/article ... b2a4d21539
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
User avatar
c933103
Topic Author
Posts: 5537
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Fri Feb 26, 2021 11:09 pm

seb146 wrote:
Re-reading the article, it was Biden quoting Xi. So, technically, Biden did say it, but, in context, he said Xi said. Skipping a step there....

Quoting Biden: the central principle of Xi Jinping is that there must be a united, tightly controlled China, and he uses his rationale for the things he does based on that.

Biden again: Well, there will be repercussions for China, and he knows that. What I’m doing is making clear that we are going to reassert our role as spokespersons for human rights at the UN and other agencies that have an impact on their attitudes

Biden: But it’s much more complicated than that, I shouldn’t try to talk China policy in 10 minutes on television here.

So, it seems right wing media is AGAIN twisting everything around to play to their base.

In other words,
Biden is aware that Xi Jinping want to unite and tightly control the entire China, and see it as necessary, and act accordingly.
And Biden understand that while there will be repercussions against China, those are already anticipated by Xi Jinping.
And Biden's response is to "reassert our role as "spokespersons" for human right
And he think that doing so at UN and other agencies would have an impact on their attitude
Then claim it's more complicated and isn't for short TV talk.

I don't see they misquoting him in this part.
The different cultural norm was from another part.

As a side note, it should be said one reason why the Chinese government and their leader hold such altitude is, they saw what the world voiced after 1989 Tiananmen incident. They saw the world's reaction and policy. But they saw things changed in just a few years, and in barely over a decade they're in the WTO exponentially increasing trade with all countries around the world again.
Hence they don't worry about such kind of thing.
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate 求同存異 よく見て・よく聞いて・よく考える
Fitting foreign event into local context for lessons will only be able to tell local values instead of foreign ones
You're now at your youngest moment in your remaining life
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 14957
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Fri Feb 26, 2021 11:17 pm

c933103 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Re-reading the article, it was Biden quoting Xi. So, technically, Biden did say it, but, in context, he said Xi said. Skipping a step there....

Quoting Biden: the central principle of Xi Jinping is that there must be a united, tightly controlled China, and he uses his rationale for the things he does based on that.

Biden again: Well, there will be repercussions for China, and he knows that. What I’m doing is making clear that we are going to reassert our role as spokespersons for human rights at the UN and other agencies that have an impact on their attitudes

Biden: But it’s much more complicated than that, I shouldn’t try to talk China policy in 10 minutes on television here.

So, it seems right wing media is AGAIN twisting everything around to play to their base.

In other words,
Biden is aware that Xi Jinping want to unite and tightly control the entire China, and see it as necessary, and act accordingly.
And Biden understand that while there will be repercussions against China, those are already anticipated by Xi Jinping.
And Biden's response is to "reassert our role as "spokespersons" for human right
And he think that doing so at UN and other agencies would have an impact on their attitude
Then claim it's more complicated and isn't for short TV talk.

I don't see they misquoting him in this part.
The different cultural norm was from another part.

As a side note, it should be said one reason why the Chinese government and their leader hold such altitude is, they saw what the world voiced after 1989 Tiananmen incident. They saw the world's reaction and policy. But they saw things changed in just a few years, and in barely over a decade they're in the WTO exponentially increasing trade with all countries around the world again.
Hence they don't worry about such kind of thing.


China has invested tens of billions in most of the developing world in the last 10 years. Nobody is going to vote against them now.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
User avatar
c933103
Topic Author
Posts: 5537
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Sat Feb 27, 2021 12:22 am

Aaron747 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Re-reading the article, it was Biden quoting Xi. So, technically, Biden did say it, but, in context, he said Xi said. Skipping a step there....

Quoting Biden: the central principle of Xi Jinping is that there must be a united, tightly controlled China, and he uses his rationale for the things he does based on that.

Biden again: Well, there will be repercussions for China, and he knows that. What I’m doing is making clear that we are going to reassert our role as spokespersons for human rights at the UN and other agencies that have an impact on their attitudes

Biden: But it’s much more complicated than that, I shouldn’t try to talk China policy in 10 minutes on television here.

So, it seems right wing media is AGAIN twisting everything around to play to their base.

In other words,
Biden is aware that Xi Jinping want to unite and tightly control the entire China, and see it as necessary, and act accordingly.
And Biden understand that while there will be repercussions against China, those are already anticipated by Xi Jinping.
And Biden's response is to "reassert our role as "spokespersons" for human right
And he think that doing so at UN and other agencies would have an impact on their attitude
Then claim it's more complicated and isn't for short TV talk.

I don't see they misquoting him in this part.
The different cultural norm was from another part.

As a side note, it should be said one reason why the Chinese government and their leader hold such altitude is, they saw what the world voiced after 1989 Tiananmen incident. They saw the world's reaction and policy. But they saw things changed in just a few years, and in barely over a decade they're in the WTO exponentially increasing trade with all countries around the world again.
Hence they don't worry about such kind of thing.


China has invested tens of billions in most of the developing world in the last 10 years. Nobody is going to vote against them now.

50 Years ago when those states voted P.R.China replacing RoC to be China representative in the UN it's already the situation, not just the last ten
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate 求同存異 よく見て・よく聞いて・よく考える
Fitting foreign event into local context for lessons will only be able to tell local values instead of foreign ones
You're now at your youngest moment in your remaining life
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 14957
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Sat Feb 27, 2021 12:29 am

c933103 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
In other words,
Biden is aware that Xi Jinping want to unite and tightly control the entire China, and see it as necessary, and act accordingly.
And Biden understand that while there will be repercussions against China, those are already anticipated by Xi Jinping.
And Biden's response is to "reassert our role as "spokespersons" for human right
And he think that doing so at UN and other agencies would have an impact on their attitude
Then claim it's more complicated and isn't for short TV talk.

I don't see they misquoting him in this part.
The different cultural norm was from another part.

As a side note, it should be said one reason why the Chinese government and their leader hold such altitude is, they saw what the world voiced after 1989 Tiananmen incident. They saw the world's reaction and policy. But they saw things changed in just a few years, and in barely over a decade they're in the WTO exponentially increasing trade with all countries around the world again.
Hence they don't worry about such kind of thing.


China has invested tens of billions in most of the developing world in the last 10 years. Nobody is going to vote against them now.

50 Years ago when those states voted P.R.China replacing RoC to be China representative in the UN it's already the situation, not just the last ten


That is true, but the background of that vote was many developing countries' resentment of US/UK control of their financial and investment spheres.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
User avatar
c933103
Topic Author
Posts: 5537
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Sat Feb 27, 2021 2:30 am

Aaron747 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

China has invested tens of billions in most of the developing world in the last 10 years. Nobody is going to vote against them now.

50 Years ago when those states voted P.R.China replacing RoC to be China representative in the UN it's already the situation, not just the last ten


That is true, but the background of that vote was many developing countries' resentment of US/UK control of their financial and investment spheres.

I think I would say it is still the case now?
Many developing countries, especially their leaders that are in control of those countries, still hate how western power put up all sort of conditions trying to make those countries change their domestic situations, even if they're for better
Meanwhile, China doesn't care about these at all, and would help the rulers of these countries as long as they're being promised political and/or economical return
I think it is an example that injustice somewhere is a threat to justice everywhere
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate 求同存異 よく見て・よく聞いて・よく考える
Fitting foreign event into local context for lessons will only be able to tell local values instead of foreign ones
You're now at your youngest moment in your remaining life
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 23719
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Sat Feb 27, 2021 2:37 am

c933103 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Re-reading the article, it was Biden quoting Xi. So, technically, Biden did say it, but, in context, he said Xi said. Skipping a step there....

Quoting Biden: the central principle of Xi Jinping is that there must be a united, tightly controlled China, and he uses his rationale for the things he does based on that.

Biden again: Well, there will be repercussions for China, and he knows that. What I’m doing is making clear that we are going to reassert our role as spokespersons for human rights at the UN and other agencies that have an impact on their attitudes

Biden: But it’s much more complicated than that, I shouldn’t try to talk China policy in 10 minutes on television here.

So, it seems right wing media is AGAIN twisting everything around to play to their base.

In other words,
Biden is aware that Xi Jinping want to unite and tightly control the entire China, and see it as necessary, and act accordingly.
And Biden understand that while there will be repercussions against China, those are already anticipated by Xi Jinping.
And Biden's response is to "reassert our role as "spokespersons" for human right
And he think that doing so at UN and other agencies would have an impact on their attitude
Then claim it's more complicated and isn't for short TV talk.

I don't see they misquoting him in this part.
The different cultural norm was from another part.

As a side note, it should be said one reason why the Chinese government and their leader hold such altitude is, they saw what the world voiced after 1989 Tiananmen incident. They saw the world's reaction and policy. But they saw things changed in just a few years, and in barely over a decade they're in the WTO exponentially increasing trade with all countries around the world again.
Hence they don't worry about such kind of thing.


International relations is extremely complicated. It takes more than a 5 minute segment on TV. There is DPRK and Mongolia and India to think about in speaking of the Chinese. Those minority parties like Tibet and the Uighurs and those in Hong Kong. It is not as simple as the MAGA leader says it is.

After Tiananmen Square, the government cracked down hard on dissidents. Just like they have been doing in Hong Kong. IIRC, the government also cracked down on a different religious movement.
Complete and total unification at any cost. That is dictator speak. No freedoms. This is what Biden was told by Xi. This is what Biden told CNN. A different cultural norm. Complete and total allegiance at any cost.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 14957
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:34 am

c933103 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
50 Years ago when those states voted P.R.China replacing RoC to be China representative in the UN it's already the situation, not just the last ten


That is true, but the background of that vote was many developing countries' resentment of US/UK control of their financial and investment spheres.

I think I would say it is still the case now?
Many developing countries, especially their leaders that are in control of those countries, still hate how western power put up all sort of conditions trying to make those countries change their domestic situations, even if they're for better
Meanwhile, China doesn't care about these at all, and would help the rulers of these countries as long as they're being promised political and/or economical return
I think it is an example that injustice somewhere is a threat to justice everywhere


True, that axiom is as relevant now as it was in 1971.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
User avatar
c933103
Topic Author
Posts: 5537
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:37 am

seb146 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Re-reading the article, it was Biden quoting Xi. So, technically, Biden did say it, but, in context, he said Xi said. Skipping a step there....

Quoting Biden: the central principle of Xi Jinping is that there must be a united, tightly controlled China, and he uses his rationale for the things he does based on that.

Biden again: Well, there will be repercussions for China, and he knows that. What I’m doing is making clear that we are going to reassert our role as spokespersons for human rights at the UN and other agencies that have an impact on their attitudes

Biden: But it’s much more complicated than that, I shouldn’t try to talk China policy in 10 minutes on television here.

So, it seems right wing media is AGAIN twisting everything around to play to their base.

In other words,
Biden is aware that Xi Jinping want to unite and tightly control the entire China, and see it as necessary, and act accordingly.
And Biden understand that while there will be repercussions against China, those are already anticipated by Xi Jinping.
And Biden's response is to "reassert our role as "spokespersons" for human right
And he think that doing so at UN and other agencies would have an impact on their attitude
Then claim it's more complicated and isn't for short TV talk.

I don't see they misquoting him in this part.
The different cultural norm was from another part.

As a side note, it should be said one reason why the Chinese government and their leader hold such altitude is, they saw what the world voiced after 1989 Tiananmen incident. They saw the world's reaction and policy. But they saw things changed in just a few years, and in barely over a decade they're in the WTO exponentially increasing trade with all countries around the world again.
Hence they don't worry about such kind of thing.


International relations is extremely complicated. It takes more than a 5 minute segment on TV. There is DPRK and Mongolia and India to think about in speaking of the Chinese. Those minority parties like Tibet and the Uighurs and those in Hong Kong. It is not as simple as the MAGA leader says it is.

After Tiananmen Square, the government cracked down hard on dissidents. Just like they have been doing in Hong Kong. IIRC, the government also cracked down on a different religious movement.
Complete and total unification at any cost. That is dictator speak. No freedoms. This is what Biden was told by Xi. This is what Biden told CNN. A different cultural norm. Complete and total allegiance at any cost.

If he think it's important then he could create his own time slot to explain clearly to the citizens of the country, I guess
He skipped a lot of chances of doing that since start running the election.
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate 求同存異 よく見て・よく聞いて・よく考える
Fitting foreign event into local context for lessons will only be able to tell local values instead of foreign ones
You're now at your youngest moment in your remaining life
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 23719
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:20 am

c933103 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
In other words,
Biden is aware that Xi Jinping want to unite and tightly control the entire China, and see it as necessary, and act accordingly.
And Biden understand that while there will be repercussions against China, those are already anticipated by Xi Jinping.
And Biden's response is to "reassert our role as "spokespersons" for human right
And he think that doing so at UN and other agencies would have an impact on their attitude
Then claim it's more complicated and isn't for short TV talk.

I don't see they misquoting him in this part.
The different cultural norm was from another part.

As a side note, it should be said one reason why the Chinese government and their leader hold such altitude is, they saw what the world voiced after 1989 Tiananmen incident. They saw the world's reaction and policy. But they saw things changed in just a few years, and in barely over a decade they're in the WTO exponentially increasing trade with all countries around the world again.
Hence they don't worry about such kind of thing.


International relations is extremely complicated. It takes more than a 5 minute segment on TV. There is DPRK and Mongolia and India to think about in speaking of the Chinese. Those minority parties like Tibet and the Uighurs and those in Hong Kong. It is not as simple as the MAGA leader says it is.

After Tiananmen Square, the government cracked down hard on dissidents. Just like they have been doing in Hong Kong. IIRC, the government also cracked down on a different religious movement.
Complete and total unification at any cost. That is dictator speak. No freedoms. This is what Biden was told by Xi. This is what Biden told CNN. A different cultural norm. Complete and total allegiance at any cost.

If he think it's important then he could create his own time slot to explain clearly to the citizens of the country, I guess
He skipped a lot of chances of doing that since start running the election.


I guess he thinks it is more important to run the country than berate and bully and play golf.....

I just watched a video on why Taiwan claims Mongolia as it's territory. The video is about 11 minutes long and the narrator keeps saying "I am greatly simplifying for time constraints".
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
User avatar
c933103
Topic Author
Posts: 5537
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:39 am

seb146 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

International relations is extremely complicated. It takes more than a 5 minute segment on TV. There is DPRK and Mongolia and India to think about in speaking of the Chinese. Those minority parties like Tibet and the Uighurs and those in Hong Kong. It is not as simple as the MAGA leader says it is.

After Tiananmen Square, the government cracked down hard on dissidents. Just like they have been doing in Hong Kong. IIRC, the government also cracked down on a different religious movement.
Complete and total unification at any cost. That is dictator speak. No freedoms. This is what Biden was told by Xi. This is what Biden told CNN. A different cultural norm. Complete and total allegiance at any cost.

If he think it's important then he could create his own time slot to explain clearly to the citizens of the country, I guess
He skipped a lot of chances of doing that since start running the election.


I guess he thinks it is more important to run the country than berate and bully and play golf.....

Explaining policies to citizens is part of "running the country", no?
I just watched a video on why Taiwan claims Mongolia as it's territory. The video is about 11 minutes long and the narrator keeps saying "I am greatly simplifying for time constraints".

YouTube video makers need to make their video length to be within certain range to maximize monetization. If the president of the US think something is important and the citizens should know about, them he would be free to, and should be, spending as much time as needed to talk about it
----
To simply ecplain the topic "Why Taiwan claim Mongolia as it's territory", key points are
- Taiwan is Republic of China's remaining territory after rest of the country being taken away by communist party which formed PRC which now control China Mainland, and due to threat from PRC it cannot announce independent from the identity of China and thus it have to retain territorial claims from Republic of China era
- When Republic of China was ruling most of China, it was succeeding the Manchurian Qing Empire, which is from Northeast China and in addition to China Proper, they also control and colonize Tibetan area, Eastern Turkestan, Mongolia, and Manchuria itself.
- Although the founders of Republic of China initially fought for decolonization of Chinese proper from the hands of Manchurian Qing Empire, after they succeeded overthrowing the Qing they realize the benefit of holding those other territories and thus aim to create a new multiracial country that include all those Qing Empire territories, which includes Mongolia
- But as China went through a brief period of destabilization with multiple local powers emerging, Soviet helped the Mongolian in what was known as Mongolia and helped them achieved de facto independence, which was later recognized by the PRC. RoC was originally going to recognize them around the time following WWII but they abolished such plan after Chinese communist party victory in Mainland China. What was known as Outer Mongolia thus became Mongolia P.R. and now become Republic of Mongolia.
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate 求同存異 よく見て・よく聞いて・よく考える
Fitting foreign event into local context for lessons will only be able to tell local values instead of foreign ones
You're now at your youngest moment in your remaining life
 
Pi7472000
Posts: 309
Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:26 pm

Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:44 am

Does China have a lot of diversity in their party leadership? I know in the West many people value diversity in leadership. This includes sexual orientation, religion, to ethnicity. Is that a different cultural norm as well in China? I wonder if it would help to have more diversity in leadership to help prevent this type of genocide.
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 23719
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:51 am

c933103 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
If he think it's important then he could create his own time slot to explain clearly to the citizens of the country, I guess
He skipped a lot of chances of doing that since start running the election.


I guess he thinks it is more important to run the country than berate and bully and play golf.....

Explaining policies to citizens is part of "running the country", no?
I just watched a video on why Taiwan claims Mongolia as it's territory. The video is about 11 minutes long and the narrator keeps saying "I am greatly simplifying for time constraints".

YouTube video makers need to make their video length to be within certain range to maximize monetization. If the president of the US think something is important and the citizens should know about, them he would be free to, and should be, spending as much time as needed to talk about it
----
To simply ecplain the topic "Why Taiwan claim Mongolia as it's territory", key points are
- Taiwan is Republic of China's remaining territory after rest of the country being taken away by communist party which formed PRC which now control China Mainland, and due to threat from PRC it cannot announce independent from the identity of China and thus it have to retain territorial claims from Republic of China era
- When Republic of China was ruling most of China, it was succeeding the Manchurian Qing Empire, which is from Northeast China and in addition to China Proper, they also control and colonize Tibetan area, Eastern Turkestan, Mongolia, and Manchuria itself.
- Although the founders of Republic of China initially fought for decolonization of Chinese proper from the hands of Manchurian Qing Empire, after they succeeded overthrowing the Qing they realize the benefit of holding those other territories and thus aim to create a new multiracial country that include all those Qing Empire territories, which includes Mongolia
- But as China went through a brief period of destabilization with multiple local powers emerging, Soviet helped the Mongolian in what was known as Mongolia and helped them achieved de facto independence, which was later recognized by the PRC. RoC was originally going to recognize them around the time following WWII but they abolished such plan after Chinese communist party victory in Mainland China. What was known as Outer Mongolia thus became Mongolia P.R. and now become Republic of Mongolia.


It is much, much more complicated than that. Especially with countries as old as China. Not to mention, the president of the United States must also be careful not to offend allies or other nations that we may have our military in. I love learning about all these interesting historical facts, but, at some point, it all becomes a blur. And some people will still have questions and walk away frustrated and feel they are being ignored.

No one is stopping any of us from reading up on any of this on our own. It is not up to one guy to decide to take hours out of his day just to explain Chinese history and the contexts of his meeting with Xi.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
User avatar
c933103
Topic Author
Posts: 5537
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Sun Feb 28, 2021 2:12 am

Pi7472000 wrote:
Does China have a lot of diversity in their party leadership? I know in the West many people value diversity in leadership. This includes sexual orientation, religion, to ethnicity. Is that a different cultural norm as well in China? I wonder if it would help to have more diversity in leadership to help prevent this type of genocide.

First of all Chinese government doesn't formally recognize different sexual, and while it recognize different religions, religions being formally recognized are required to be loyal to the Chinese Communist Party leadership, and Chinese Communist Party require its members to be atheist.
And, while China have adopted a form of collective leadership following the death of Mao, with the moves by Xi Jinping in the past decade, its moving back to leadership by a single great leader, and a single person cannot have diversity.
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate 求同存異 よく見て・よく聞いて・よく考える
Fitting foreign event into local context for lessons will only be able to tell local values instead of foreign ones
You're now at your youngest moment in your remaining life
 
User avatar
c933103
Topic Author
Posts: 5537
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Sun Feb 28, 2021 2:32 am

seb146 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

I guess he thinks it is more important to run the country than berate and bully and play golf.....

Explaining policies to citizens is part of "running the country", no?
I just watched a video on why Taiwan claims Mongolia as it's territory. The video is about 11 minutes long and the narrator keeps saying "I am greatly simplifying for time constraints".

YouTube video makers need to make their video length to be within certain range to maximize monetization. If the president of the US think something is important and the citizens should know about, them he would be free to, and should be, spending as much time as needed to talk about it
----
To simply ecplain the topic "Why Taiwan claim Mongolia as it's territory", key points are
- Taiwan is Republic of China's remaining territory after rest of the country being taken away by communist party which formed PRC which now control China Mainland, and due to threat from PRC it cannot announce independent from the identity of China and thus it have to retain territorial claims from Republic of China era
- When Republic of China was ruling most of China, it was succeeding the Manchurian Qing Empire, which is from Northeast China and in addition to China Proper, they also control and colonize Tibetan area, Eastern Turkestan, Mongolia, and Manchuria itself.
- Although the founders of Republic of China initially fought for decolonization of Chinese proper from the hands of Manchurian Qing Empire, after they succeeded overthrowing the Qing they realize the benefit of holding those other territories and thus aim to create a new multiracial country that include all those Qing Empire territories, which includes Mongolia
- But as China went through a brief period of destabilization with multiple local powers emerging, Soviet helped the Mongolian in what was known as Mongolia and helped them achieved de facto independence, which was later recognized by the PRC. RoC was originally going to recognize them around the time following WWII but they abolished such plan after Chinese communist party victory in Mainland China. What was known as Outer Mongolia thus became Mongolia P.R. and now become Republic of Mongolia.


It is much, much more complicated than that. Especially with countries as old as China.

Other than trying to argue historical right, Else one don't usually need to care about time before 1860 or 1949 or even 1978, when talking about modern China.
Not to mention, the president of the United States must also be careful not to offend allies or other nations that we may have our military in.

The US president need to make such consideration on everything, not just on.the topic of China.
I love learning about all these interesting historical facts, but, at some point, it all becomes a blur.

The important thing is how do they correlate with modern situation.
And some people will still have questions and walk away frustrated and feel they are being ignored.

That's not an excuse.
It's like saying we might as well not explain why it is good and safe to use vaccine because some people will still have question and walk away frustrated and feel being ignored even after explanation.
No one is stopping any of us from reading up on any of this on our own. It is not up to one guy to decide to take hours out of his day just to explain Chinese history and the contexts of his meeting with Xi.

He haven't really explained anything on the topic of policy against China in the months since he announced his candidacy until now. Given the significance of relationship with China one would expect more attention and words to be given on the topic, no matter which occasion that is.
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate 求同存異 よく見て・よく聞いて・よく考える
Fitting foreign event into local context for lessons will only be able to tell local values instead of foreign ones
You're now at your youngest moment in your remaining life
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 14957
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Sun Feb 28, 2021 2:41 am

c933103 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Explaining policies to citizens is part of "running the country", no?

YouTube video makers need to make their video length to be within certain range to maximize monetization. If the president of the US think something is important and the citizens should know about, them he would be free to, and should be, spending as much time as needed to talk about it
----
To simply ecplain the topic "Why Taiwan claim Mongolia as it's territory", key points are
- Taiwan is Republic of China's remaining territory after rest of the country being taken away by communist party which formed PRC which now control China Mainland, and due to threat from PRC it cannot announce independent from the identity of China and thus it have to retain territorial claims from Republic of China era
- When Republic of China was ruling most of China, it was succeeding the Manchurian Qing Empire, which is from Northeast China and in addition to China Proper, they also control and colonize Tibetan area, Eastern Turkestan, Mongolia, and Manchuria itself.
- Although the founders of Republic of China initially fought for decolonization of Chinese proper from the hands of Manchurian Qing Empire, after they succeeded overthrowing the Qing they realize the benefit of holding those other territories and thus aim to create a new multiracial country that include all those Qing Empire territories, which includes Mongolia
- But as China went through a brief period of destabilization with multiple local powers emerging, Soviet helped the Mongolian in what was known as Mongolia and helped them achieved de facto independence, which was later recognized by the PRC. RoC was originally going to recognize them around the time following WWII but they abolished such plan after Chinese communist party victory in Mainland China. What was known as Outer Mongolia thus became Mongolia P.R. and now become Republic of Mongolia.


It is much, much more complicated than that. Especially with countries as old as China.

Other than trying to argue historical right, Else one don't usually need to care about time before 1860 or 1949 or even 1978, when talking about modern China.
Not to mention, the president of the United States must also be careful not to offend allies or other nations that we may have our military in.

The US president need to make such consideration on everything, not just on.the topic of China.
I love learning about all these interesting historical facts, but, at some point, it all becomes a blur.

The important thing is how do they correlate with modern situation.
And some people will still have questions and walk away frustrated and feel they are being ignored.

That's not an excuse.
It's like saying we might as well not explain why it is good and safe to use vaccine because some people will still have question and walk away frustrated and feel being ignored even after explanation.
No one is stopping any of us from reading up on any of this on our own. It is not up to one guy to decide to take hours out of his day just to explain Chinese history and the contexts of his meeting with Xi.

He haven't really explained anything on the topic of policy against China in the months since he announced his candidacy until now. Given the significance of relationship with China one would expect more attention and words to be given on the topic, no matter which occasion that is.


To be fair, there was little substantive emphasis on China by all campaigns, unless related to COVID. Given the level of pressing domestic concerns in the US right now, very few Presidential advisors would urge a POTUS of either party to devote considerable time to explaining to citizens, as you suggested above. Remember that only 36-38% of Americans are university-educated. Many don't know the difference substantially between China, Taiwan, Korea, etc. and would be hard pressed to differentiate between them on a map. Whereas in the Cold War era there would be comparatively fewer Americans of any education level who could not identify Russia.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 14394
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Sun Feb 28, 2021 2:55 am

There is nothing to explain if you don't plan to do anything substantive, anyway. COVID has made the world more dependant on Chinese manufacturing not less.

Trump tariffs are still there.

Unless the West decides to add Human Rights considerations to free trade, not much can happen. Environmental considerations are also something to add, so that would make big changes.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 14957
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:04 am

Aesma wrote:
There is nothing to explain if you don't plan to do anything substantive, anyway. COVID has made the world more dependant on Chinese manufacturing not less.

Trump tariffs are still there.

Unless the West decides to add Human Rights considerations to free trade, not much can happen. Environmental considerations are also something to add, so that would make big changes.


To be fair, most climate action trackers rate the US worse than China, ROK, ROC, Japan etc. in environmental measures. Germany, Canada, UK, and Australia have better credibility on that score.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
WIederling
Posts: 10043
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:47 am

c933103 wrote:
- When Republic of China was ruling most of China, it was succeeding the Manchurian Qing Empire, which is from Northeast China and in addition to China Proper, they also control and colonize Tibetan area, Eastern Turkestan, Mongolia, and Manchuria itself.


Stuck in the past. Mao's forces won over a set of warlords competing over the domain.
ROC is an extraterritorialized occupation force on a colonized island ( Taiwan, real indigenous people lived around there! )

A bit like Germany after the war: West Germany could not accept that another new German state had been created.
Andenauer's stance created a political stand still.
Brandt's "Ostpolitik" by accepting the status quo seeded the end of the communist block.
Murphy is an optimist
 
WIederling
Posts: 10043
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:53 am

Aaron747 wrote:
To be fair, most climate action trackers rate the US worse than China, ROK, ROC, Japan etc. in environmental measures. Germany, Canada, UK, and Australia have better credibility on that score.


Carbon footprint, like VAT, is an accumulated value attached to products and hitting the final user.
A major part of Chinese carbon footprint is attached to exports going to the US.

elsewhere, but in this domain:
China appears to be moving much faster and than reporting in the 1st world media would indicate.
Just like the US they move less with others, but they do move.
Murphy is an optimist
 
User avatar
c933103
Topic Author
Posts: 5537
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:10 am

WIederling wrote:
c933103 wrote:
- When Republic of China was ruling most of China, it was succeeding the Manchurian Qing Empire, which is from Northeast China and in addition to China Proper, they also control and colonize Tibetan area, Eastern Turkestan, Mongolia, and Manchuria itself.


Stuck in the past. Mao's forces won over a set of warlords competing over the domain.
ROC is an extraterritorialized occupation force on a colonized island ( Taiwan, real indigenous people lived around there! )

A bit like Germany after the war: West Germany could not accept that another new German state had been created.
Andenauer's stance created a political stand still.
Brandt's "Ostpolitik" by accepting the status quo seeded the end of the communist block.

The subject was Mongolia which PRC didn't won.
WIederling wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
To be fair, most climate action trackers rate the US worse than China, ROK, ROC, Japan etc. in environmental measures. Germany, Canada, UK, and Australia have better credibility on that score.


Carbon footprint, like VAT, is an accumulated value attached to products and hitting the final user.
A major part of Chinese carbon footprint is attached to exports going to the US.

elsewhere, but in this domain:
China appears to be moving much faster and than reporting in the 1st world media would indicate.
Just like the US they move less with others, but they do move.

Yet with China being classified as a developing country on international climate agrerment, such carbon footprint are not being properly regulated.
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate 求同存異 よく見て・よく聞いて・よく考える
Fitting foreign event into local context for lessons will only be able to tell local values instead of foreign ones
You're now at your youngest moment in your remaining life
 
WIederling
Posts: 10043
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:34 pm

c933103 wrote:
The subject was Mongolia which PRC didn't won.
.


unsuprising as Mongolia was a Soviet Union member long before MAO started the long March.
i.e. neither Mao nor Tschiang Kai Shek could have won or lost that nation.
Murphy is an optimist
 
WIederling
Posts: 10043
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:37 pm

c933103 wrote:
Yet with China being classified as a developing country on international climate agrerment, such carbon footprint are not being properly regulated.


Lead by example.

That applies very much to the US too. Overwhelming carbon footprint without much to show for it beyond bling.
Murphy is an optimist
 
User avatar
c933103
Topic Author
Posts: 5537
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Sun Feb 28, 2021 2:08 pm

WIederling wrote:
c933103 wrote:
The subject was Mongolia which PRC didn't won.
.


unsuprising as Mongolia was a Soviet Union member long before MAO started the long March.
i.e. neither Mao nor Tschiang Kai Shek could have won or lost that nation.

Since when Mongolia become part of Soviet Union?
WIederling wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Yet with China being classified as a developing country on international climate agrerment, such carbon footprint are not being properly regulated.


Lead by example.

That applies very much to the US too. Overwhelming carbon footprint without much to show for it beyond bling.

Don't you realize my comment being critical of the mechanism allowing US and other developed countries consumer to achieve this from manufactured products of developing countries?
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate 求同存異 よく見て・よく聞いて・よく考える
Fitting foreign event into local context for lessons will only be able to tell local values instead of foreign ones
You're now at your youngest moment in your remaining life
 
LCDFlight
Posts: 1084
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:22 pm

Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:55 pm

Aesma wrote:
There is nothing to explain if you don't plan to do anything substantive, anyway. COVID has made the world more dependant on Chinese manufacturing not less.

Trump tariffs are still there.

Unless the West decides to add Human Rights considerations to free trade, not much can happen. Environmental considerations are also something to add, so that would make big changes.


I think we should. Democracy should be one of the basic requirements of free trade. Otherwise I think a very strong tariff should be applied.

The idea that we would openly trade with China while they engage in Orwellian dystopian dictatorship is ludicrous. How cowardly of us to continue to engage with them. We should instead be heavily investing with India and other democracies. Until the Chinese people can successfully deal with their dictators and win their freedom. We should wish the Chinese people well in their fight, but not have a close trade relationship with them. The theories justifying that relationship have been proven false. It's time to wind down that relationship.
 
WIederling
Posts: 10043
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Sun Feb 28, 2021 4:02 pm

c933103 wrote:
WIederling wrote:
c933103 wrote:
The subject was Mongolia which PRC didn't won.
.


unsuprising as Mongolia was a Soviet Union member long before MAO started the long March.
i.e. neither Mao nor Tschiang Kai Shek could have won or lost that nation.

Since when Mongolia become part of Soviet Union?
not member but strongly aligned. sorry.

WIederling wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Yet with China being classified as a developing country on international climate agrerment, such carbon footprint are not being properly regulated.


Lead by example.

That applies very much to the US too. Overwhelming carbon footprint without much to show for it beyond bling.

Don't you realize my comment being critical of the mechanism allowing US and other developed countries consumer to achieve this from manufactured products of developing countries?


That imho wasn't in your face obvious from reading.:-) again sorry.
Murphy is an optimist
 
Sokes
Posts: 2775
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Tue Mar 02, 2021 7:21 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
Democracy should be one of the basic requirements of free trade. Otherwise I think a very strong tariff should be applied.

The idea that we would openly trade with China while they engage in Orwellian dystopian dictatorship is ludicrous. How cowardly of us to continue to engage with them. We should instead be heavily investing with India and other democracies. Until the Chinese people can successfully deal with their dictators and win their freedom. We should wish the Chinese people well in their fight, but not have a close trade relationship with them. The theories justifying that relationship have been proven false. It's time to wind down that relationship.

The Indian legal system isn't good enough for what you suggest.

In today's newspaper "Economic Times", 2.3.21, "Repair our Reputation" from Arijit Barman:
"...even when we break into the top 100 club on overall ease of doing business, India is more than 100 notches below in the matrix of contract enforcement-competing with the likes of Afghanistan and Zimbabwe that are worse than us.
To quote the government's own economic survey, it takes 1445 days to resolve a commercial contract in India.
...
India attracted the highest FDI (foreign direct investment) inflows for the first eight months of the fiscal year. But remember, almost half of that $58,3 billion is due to Dollar deludge that we saw chasing a single target-Reliance Industries. And it is anybody's guess that almost all their investment agreements-from Silicon Valley titans Google or Facebook or even Wall Street's smart suits KKR and General Atlantic (GA)- would have global arbitration as means to resolve any sparring, should they arise."

The guy who runs Reliance is Modi's darling. That's foreign direct investment into political well connected business. Vodafone is the competitor. Ask them how their India investment worked out.

A woman showed me a flat for rent in a beach town. There was a swimming pool without water, so let's call it a type of resort. Most buildings were o.k., but her building looked totally run down. The woman explained that a businessman offered to take flats on lease. He would manage many flats as a full time job, renting them out to tourists on weekly or monthly basis. The owners of ten flats or so agreed. The businessman never paid anything. He also didn't spend to maintain the buildings. It took six years of court proceedings for the owners to reposes the flats. But they didn't get any money.
Somebody mentioned to me six years is fast.

No doubt India is improving. But if one sees the foreign direct investment into India in relation to money growth in industrial countries, the former is at the most a few % of the later.
From Dec19 to July 20 US money supply increased by 3 trillion $ or so.
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/08/05/the-bal ... he-us.html

58 billion $ is 2% of it. But then Americans are not the only one to invest in India. So maybe 1% or so of the money flood finds its way to India as foreign direct investment. Credit to India has to be added, which usually is much more money than FDI. Apparently that's not true at the moment.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Aaron747, ArchGuy1, FGITD, YokoTsuno and 26 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos