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c933103
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Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:39 am

https://www.news.com.au/finance/work/le ... 638798c5ab
In addition to saying it is culturally different norms, I find it worthnoting that when the reporter asked about "is there going to be any actual repercussions for China", his response is "What I’m doing is making clear that we are going to reassert our role as spokespersons for human rights at the UN and other agencies that have an impact on their attitudes.".
If US being a "spokespersons" for human right at the UN is the repercussion China going to face, I think China will happily accept such "repercussion" and continue with their behavior.
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Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:42 am

It’s a realistic view. What can actually change so long as PRC is a permanent UNSC voter and one of the most powerful voices in other UN committees? PRC, US, UK, France, and Russia get to decide what goes because they are the permanent members. This is the de facto post-WW2 setup of the world.
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Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:44 am

Aaron747 wrote:
It’s a realistic view. What can actually change so long as PRC is a permanent UNSC voter and one of the most powerful voices in other UN committees? PRC, US, UK, France, and Russia get to decide what goes because they are the permanent members. This is the de facto post-WW2 setup of the world.

The world isn't just UN?
Maybe look at how a number of African countries responded to Apartheid South Africa for some idea?
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Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:54 am

c933103 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
It’s a realistic view. What can actually change so long as PRC is a permanent UNSC voter and one of the most powerful voices in other UN committees? PRC, US, UK, France, and Russia get to decide what goes because they are the permanent members. This is the de facto post-WW2 setup of the world.

The world isn't just UN?
Maybe look at how a number of African countries responded to Apartheid South Africa for some idea?


Maybe if you knew more about SA history you’d have typed a different sentence. Apartheid died due to economic pressures, not the stance of other African countries. And nobody anywhere is going to exert major economic pressure on PRC (the kind to influence a change of norms) because they can respond in kind.

And much as it sucks, the UN remains the primary forum where national attitudes are expressed.
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Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:58 am

Aaron747 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
It’s a realistic view. What can actually change so long as PRC is a permanent UNSC voter and one of the most powerful voices in other UN committees? PRC, US, UK, France, and Russia get to decide what goes because they are the permanent members. This is the de facto post-WW2 setup of the world.

The world isn't just UN?
Maybe look at how a number of African countries responded to Apartheid South Africa for some idea?


Maybe if you knew more about SA history you’d have typed a different sentence. Apartheid died due to economic pressures, not the stance of other African countries. And nobody anywhere is going to exert major economic pressure on PRC (the kind to influence a change of norms) because they can respond in kind.

Those are probably not a deciding factor but I think that is at least something more impactful than just talking about it.
And wasn't it said that the US was going to unite with allies on policies against China to do what a single country cannot done?
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Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Thu Feb 18, 2021 4:05 am

c933103 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
The world isn't just UN?
Maybe look at how a number of African countries responded to Apartheid South Africa for some idea?


Maybe if you knew more about SA history you’d have typed a different sentence. Apartheid died due to economic pressures, not the stance of other African countries. And nobody anywhere is going to exert major economic pressure on PRC (the kind to influence a change of norms) because they can respond in kind.

Those are probably not a deciding factor but I think that is at least something more impactful than just talking about it.
And wasn't it said that the US was going to unite with allies on policies against China to do what a single country cannot done?


Yes but at this time that means aligning with other countries’ views on human rights after the last administration failed to. There will not be any coordinated economic action involving Germany, Canada, Australia etc aligned against PRC when the global economy is weak.
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Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Thu Feb 18, 2021 4:16 am

Aaron747 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Maybe if you knew more about SA history you’d have typed a different sentence. Apartheid died due to economic pressures, not the stance of other African countries. And nobody anywhere is going to exert major economic pressure on PRC (the kind to influence a change of norms) because they can respond in kind.

Those are probably not a deciding factor but I think that is at least something more impactful than just talking about it.
And wasn't it said that the US was going to unite with allies on policies against China to do what a single country cannot done?


Yes but at this time that means aligning with other countries’ views on human rights after the last administration failed to.

What are the other countries' view on human rights? My understanding is they won't simply see it as different cultural norms?
There will not be any coordinated economic action involving Germany, Canada, Australia etc aligned against PRC when the global economy is weak.

So the answer is let countries like Australia or Canada deal with China's pressure individually? Wouldn't it be worse?
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Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Thu Feb 18, 2021 4:31 am

c933103 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Those are probably not a deciding factor but I think that is at least something more impactful than just talking about it.
And wasn't it said that the US was going to unite with allies on policies against China to do what a single country cannot done?


Yes but at this time that means aligning with other countries’ views on human rights after the last administration failed to.

What are the other countries' view on human rights? My understanding is they won't simply see it as different cultural norms?
There will not be any coordinated economic action involving Germany, Canada, Australia etc aligned against PRC when the global economy is weak.

So the answer is let countries like Australia or Canada deal with China's pressure individually? Wouldn't it be worse?


You would have to ask them. That’s one of the problems with how the world works - certain countries agree on values and what to cooperate on, then a different leader comes in and says ‘nah not anymore’ and then the relations need to be rebuilt.

As for human rights, the consensus is longstanding and is restated time and again: we stand for x,y,z in the west. European countries speak more forcefully in terms of ‘shoulds’ than the US because they have fewer deep entanglements with states that ignore human rights (ex-US and Saudi Arabia), but PRC is a different animal. Everyone says what’s happening there is wrong, but the conversation ends there. The victims are Muslim and only SJWs are very active about that. Even Gulf countries have been pretty quiet about the Uighur issue. That speaks to PRC’s consolidation of influence over the last 15 years.
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Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Thu Feb 18, 2021 4:58 am

Aaron747 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Yes but at this time that means aligning with other countries’ views on human rights after the last administration failed to.

What are the other countries' view on human rights? My understanding is they won't simply see it as different cultural norms?
There will not be any coordinated economic action involving Germany, Canada, Australia etc aligned against PRC when the global economy is weak.

So the answer is let countries like Australia or Canada deal with China's pressure individually? Wouldn't it be worse?


You would have to ask them. That’s one of the problems with how the world works - certain countries agree on values and what to cooperate on, then a different leader comes in and says ‘nah not anymore’ and then the relations need to be rebuilt.

But have the current US administration asked, before making such sort of conment?
As for human rights, the consensus is longstanding and is restated time and again: we stand for x,y,z in the west. European countries speak more forcefully in terms of ‘shoulds’ than the US because they have fewer deep entanglements with states that ignore human rights (ex-US and Saudi Arabia), but PRC is a different animal. Everyone says what’s happening there is wrong, but the conversation ends there. The victims are Muslim and only SJWs are very active about that. Even Gulf countries have been pretty quiet about the Uighur issue. That speaks to PRC’s consolidation of influence over the last 15 years.

For now many Gulf countries seems to be more supportive of China, as the issue can be painted as authoritarianism vs liberty and many Gulf countries are on the authoritarianism side of the spectrum, and they also have economic benefits of deepening ties with China. Have anything been done by the US in this aspect, especially on traditional US allies?
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Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Thu Feb 18, 2021 5:30 am

c933103 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
What are the other countries' view on human rights? My understanding is they won't simply see it as different cultural norms?

So the answer is let countries like Australia or Canada deal with China's pressure individually? Wouldn't it be worse?


You would have to ask them. That’s one of the problems with how the world works - certain countries agree on values and what to cooperate on, then a different leader comes in and says ‘nah not anymore’ and then the relations need to be rebuilt.

But have the current US administration asked, before making such sort of conment?
As for human rights, the consensus is longstanding and is restated time and again: we stand for x,y,z in the west. European countries speak more forcefully in terms of ‘shoulds’ than the US because they have fewer deep entanglements with states that ignore human rights (ex-US and Saudi Arabia), but PRC is a different animal. Everyone says what’s happening there is wrong, but the conversation ends there. The victims are Muslim and only SJWs are very active about that. Even Gulf countries have been pretty quiet about the Uighur issue. That speaks to PRC’s consolidation of influence over the last 15 years.

For now many Gulf countries seems to be more supportive of China, as the issue can be painted as authoritarianism vs liberty and many Gulf countries are on the authoritarianism side of the spectrum, and they also have economic benefits of deepening ties with China. Have anything been done by the US in this aspect, especially on traditional US allies?


I am sure China has come up in all initial discussions with major parties like Australia, Germany, and Canada. What comes of that it’s early days yet. Taiwanese and HKers should be patient to see what will arise when economic conditions return to stability.

As for allies deepening ties with China, we saw no movement on that the last four years due to zeal to complete large arms sales. Although Japan got a pass on continuing business with Iran where many other allies did not. We’ll have to see what happens next. Also China is a heavy investor in infrastructure development in the Gulf - that’s far more important to those states than authoritarian commonality.
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Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Thu Feb 18, 2021 5:58 am

Aaron747 wrote:
It’s a realistic view. What can actually change so long as PRC is a permanent UNSC voter and one of the most powerful voices in other UN committees? .


Since crimes are committed by representatives of the government the UNSC isn´t needed, but the balls to use universal jurisdiction to charge and jail government employees whenever they travel abroad. Make it illegal for companies to conform to the Chinese security law, which would essentially make business in China illegal. Plenty of options that need (lots of) political will, but not a single vote at the UN.
Or bride 2/3rd of the UN Members into deciding Bejing doesn´t represent China, leaving the seat vacant until someone does. And yes, long shot doesn´t even describe that.

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Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Thu Feb 18, 2021 12:21 pm

If all the west turns away from China things could change. Trump might have started this if he negotiated with US allies instead of antagonizing them.

It would probably take at least 10 years to move all production out of China. Then sanctions are possible, with of course the loss of a client as a result.
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Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Thu Feb 18, 2021 1:01 pm

Aesma wrote:
If all the west turns away from China things could change. Trump might have started this if he negotiated with US allies instead of antagonizing them.

better late than never?
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Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Thu Feb 18, 2021 1:08 pm

Some thought COVID would be the opportunity for this, but it seems to be going the other way.
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Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Fri Feb 19, 2021 12:01 am

Aaron747 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Maybe if you knew more about SA history you’d have typed a different sentence. Apartheid died due to economic pressures, not the stance of other African countries. And nobody anywhere is going to exert major economic pressure on PRC (the kind to influence a change of norms) because they can respond in kind.

Those are probably not a deciding factor but I think that is at least something more impactful than just talking about it.
And wasn't it said that the US was going to unite with allies on policies against China to do what a single country cannot done?


Yes but at this time that means aligning with other countries’ views on human rights after the last administration failed to. There will not be any coordinated economic action involving Germany, Canada, Australia etc aligned against PRC when the global economy is weak.

Plus the last administration was a big fan of concentration camps, in China and elsewhere.

Trump told China's president that building concentration camps for millions of Uighur Muslims was 'exactly the right thing to do,' former adviser says
https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-c ... ang-2020-6
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Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Fri Feb 19, 2021 3:03 am

Concentration camp doesn't sound right to me. It's about brainwashing them.
I would love to see the curriculum. One hears suspiciously less about the curriculum. I don't see myself able to judge.
I as a child was always forced to go to church. The Chinese government provides the balancing brainwash. Or are there any Uighurs here on a.net?

How can we speak of sanctions against China? I assume China can do better without us than we without them.
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Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Fri Feb 19, 2021 3:21 am

Sokes wrote:
Concentration camp doesn't sound right to me. It's about brainwashing them.
I would love to see the curriculum. One hears suspiciously less about the curriculum. I don't see myself able to judge.
I as a child was always forced to go to church. The Chinese government provides the balancing brainwash. Or are there any Uighurs here on a.net?

How can we speak of sanctions against China? I assume China can do better without us than we without them.


That's a helluva position to take being removed from the situation and having even an inkling of what has been reported. Are you a VW stockholder by any chance?
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Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Fri Feb 19, 2021 3:38 am

Aaron747 wrote:
That's a helluva position to take being removed from the situation and having even an inkling of what has been reported. Are you a VW stockholder by any chance?

No, I'm not.
You think all that posted so far have better knowledge than myself?
"What has been reported" is pretty little concerning the Chinese view. It doesn't sound balanced to me.
And you think the Western reporters have been there and seen it?
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Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Fri Feb 19, 2021 4:23 am

Sokes wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
That's a helluva position to take being removed from the situation and having even an inkling of what has been reported. Are you a VW stockholder by any chance?

No, I'm not.
You think all that posted so far have better knowledge than myself?
"What has been reported" is pretty little concerning the Chinese view. It doesn't sound balanced to me.
And you think the Western reporters have been there and seen it?


Oh for crying out loud.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4K_V9_Sdt2I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UMT7RUaXBk
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Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:17 am

Aaron747 wrote:

More infos:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Turk ... e_movement

In your second link, nice talk in the mosque:
"The fascist Chinese government wants to eliminate the Uighur people of Xinjiang, the entire population of Xinjiang... "

I have no doubts that there are human right violations. But if I hear stories of Kashmir I also wonder how that fits to India. I believe it was a mistake to take Kashmir into India. It should have gone to Pakistan. So should India give it up?
Unfortunately India can't do that. There are some groups that still desire independence and plenty of them that could.

Women risk being deported to a camp if they get too many children. I wish my mother in law had to face that threat when she was young. Or Nigerian women today, for that matter.
Freedom to exponential population growth very often goes hand in hand with wars, famines or at least malnourishment. Most likely there will be violation of rights anyway. I prefer the Chinese way.

Brothers tell a young woman that she has to wear head cover. The Chinese government says she mustn't.

After some time people are released or have forced labour in their village or go to jail. Is that the definition of a concentration camp?

Voltaire had quite a big mouth. I wonder that he wasn't locked away for good. That must have been a broad minded king. The reward was the French Revolution.
Similar the British industrialized India from the 1920s. The emerging business class financed Gandhi.
I wouldn't be surprised if something similar is going on.

Obviously I'm not competent to judge. But if I read what German journalists write about India I often shake my head. So my trust in newspapers is limited in these matters.

So how was US nation building? Did you manage without human right violations?
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Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:52 am

Sokes wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

More infos:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Turk ... e_movement

In your second link, nice talk in the mosque:
"The fascist Chinese government wants to eliminate the Uighur people of Xinjiang, the entire population of Xinjiang... "

I have no doubts that there are human right violations. But if I hear stories of Kashmir I also wonder how that fits to India. I believe it was a mistake to take Kashmir into India. It should have gone to Pakistan. So should India give it up?
Unfortunately India can't do that. There are some groups that still desire independence and plenty of them that could.

Women risk being deported to a camp if they get too many children. I wish my mother in law had to face that threat when she was young. Or Nigerian women today, for that matter.
Freedom to exponential population growth very often goes hand in hand with wars, famines or at least malnourishment. Most likely there will be violation of rights anyway. I prefer the Chinese way.

Brothers tell a young woman that she has to wear head cover. The Chinese government says she mustn't.

After some time people are released or have forced labour in their village or go to jail. Is that the definition of a concentration camp?

Voltaire had quite a big mouth. I wonder that he wasn't locked away for good. That must have been a broad minded king. The reward was the French Revolution.
Similar the British industrialized India from the 1920s. The emerging business class financed Gandhi.
I wouldn't be surprised if something similar is going on.

Obviously I'm not competent to judge. But if I read what German journalists write about India I often shake my head. So my trust in newspapers is limited in these matters.

So how was US nation building? Did you manage without human right violations?


Oh boy, you're conflating everything. Try to stick to one topic at a time if you want conversations to continue.
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Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:00 am

Aaron747 wrote:
Oh boy, you're conflating everything. Try to stick to one topic at a time if you want conversations to continue.

Which part did not fit the topic?
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Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:14 am

Sokes wrote:
Concentration camp doesn't sound right to me. It's about brainwashing them.
I would love to see the curriculum. One hears suspiciously less about the curriculum. I don't see myself able to judge.
I as a child was always forced to go to church. The Chinese government provides the balancing brainwash. Or are there any Uighurs here on a.net?

How can we speak of sanctions against China? I assume China can do better without us than we without them.

https://apnews.com/article/6e151296fb19 ... babd972e4b
English media seems to be providing detailed coverage and accounts less often than media of other languages
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Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:39 am

Aaron747 wrote:
Sokes wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

More infos:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Turk ... e_movement

In your second link, nice talk in the mosque:
"The fascist Chinese government wants to eliminate the Uighur people of Xinjiang, the entire population of Xinjiang... "

I have no doubts that there are human right violations. But if I hear stories of Kashmir I also wonder how that fits to India. I believe it was a mistake to take Kashmir into India. It should have gone to Pakistan. So should India give it up?
Unfortunately India can't do that. There are some groups that still desire independence and plenty of them that could.

Women risk being deported to a camp if they get too many children. I wish my mother in law had to face that threat when she was young. Or Nigerian women today, for that matter.
Freedom to exponential population growth very often goes hand in hand with wars, famines or at least malnourishment. Most likely there will be violation of rights anyway. I prefer the Chinese way.

Brothers tell a young woman that she has to wear head cover. The Chinese government says she mustn't.

After some time people are released or have forced labour in their village or go to jail. Is that the definition of a concentration camp?

Voltaire had quite a big mouth. I wonder that he wasn't locked away for good. That must have been a broad minded king. The reward was the French Revolution.
Similar the British industrialized India from the 1920s. The emerging business class financed Gandhi.
I wouldn't be surprised if something similar is going on.

Obviously I'm not competent to judge. But if I read what German journalists write about India I often shake my head. So my trust in newspapers is limited in these matters.

So how was US nation building? Did you manage without human right violations?


Oh boy, you're conflating everything. Try to stick to one topic at a time if you want conversations to continue.


You're on about Kashmir, Voltaire, US history, and womens' role in Muslim traditions all at once. The topic was the balance of what's being reported vis a vis one province in the PRC. The other stuff are red herrings unless linked to a very specific context.
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Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Fri Feb 19, 2021 5:53 pm

c933103 wrote:
Sokes wrote:
...
The Chinese government provides the balancing brainwash. Or are there any Uighurs here on a.net?

https://apnews.com/article/6e151296fb19 ... babd972e4b
English media seems to be providing detailed coverage and accounts less often than media of other languages

Thanks for posting. No doubt great injustice is done on individual level.

My earlier comment was a half joke.
How many discussions do we have here about Jesus or the bible? Can an Uighur have similar discussions with his neighbors or at least family about Mohammed or the Koran? If not the government provides some balancing view. We discuss about a struggle over Weltanschauung.

The methods are no doubt displeasing to a liberal. But then I doubt these people are mostly liberals. Napoleon did not introduce his Napoleonic code with liberal means.
Gandhi played the religious card. In these type of societies, if there is an independence movement, I would first look in the mosques.

I don't like what the Chinese government does. But I assume nothing good would come out of it if the Uighurs would get their independence.
Very few governments in the history of mankind have achieved what the Chinese government achieved. I advise against chasing off such a government.
https://econreview.berkeley.edu/persecu ... -xinjiang/
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Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:42 pm

Sokes wrote:
I assume nothing good would come out of it if the Uighurs would get their independence.


And this is based on what?
 
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Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Sat Feb 20, 2021 6:18 am

So, Biden speaks out AGAINST China and Republicans are disappointed that Biden speaks out against China or something? Methinks MAGA is grasping at straws to simply gin up the base....
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Sat Feb 20, 2021 9:17 am

Sokes wrote:
Thanks for posting. No doubt great injustice is done on individual level.

My earlier comment was a half joke.
How many discussions do we have here about Jesus or the bible? Can an Uighur have similar discussions with his neighbors or at least family about Mohammed or the Koran? If not the government provides some balancing view. We discuss about a struggle over Weltanschauung.

The methods are no doubt displeasing to a liberal. But then I doubt these people are mostly liberals. Napoleon did not introduce his Napoleonic code with liberal means.
Gandhi played the religious card. In these type of societies, if there is an independence movement, I would first look in the mosques.

I don't like what the Chinese government does. But I assume nothing good would come out of it if the Uighurs would get their independence.
Very few governments in the history of mankind have achieved what the Chinese government achieved. I advise against chasing off such a government.
https://econreview.berkeley.edu/persecu ... -xinjiang/

- The fact that non-Uighur ethnic minorities, like Kazakh, are also becoming victim of Chinese policies, should show that it is not merely about countering Uighur separatism.
- For the article on Xinjiang from the perspective of BRI investment, no doubt that's what the Chinese authority want, but thing is the high pressure from the central authority in the area is scaring off even domestic private investment from rest of China in the Xinjiang area other than surveillance industry shows the sustainability of their such high pressure, from my personal observation. Do you think people after being treated as such by Chinese governkent will just forget about the experience are accept Chinese government lead in the future?
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Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Sat Feb 20, 2021 9:19 am

seb146 wrote:
So, Biden speaks out AGAINST China and Republicans are disappointed that Biden speaks out against China or something? Methinks MAGA is grasping at straws to simply gin up the base....

Where are Republicans?
Also, my understanding of what he said is he sais he will speaks out against China but that would stay verbal and nothing more
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Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Sat Feb 20, 2021 9:43 am

meecrob wrote:
Sokes wrote:
I assume nothing good would come out of it if the Uighurs would get their independence.


And this is based on what?

On the achievements of the Chinese government. I'm also not a friend of balkanization.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
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Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Sat Feb 20, 2021 9:51 am

Sokes wrote:
meecrob wrote:
Sokes wrote:
I assume nothing good would come out of it if the Uighurs would get their independence.


And this is based on what?

On the achievements of the Chinese government. I'm also not a friend of balkanization.

I thibk you need to realize that many Chinese provinces have hundred of million residents each, and places like Xinjiang if become independent would be the second largest and second most populous country in Central Asia (Not counting Russia), and thus cannot be described as "balkanization"
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Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Sat Feb 20, 2021 10:11 am

c933103 wrote:
...
Do you think people after being treated as such by Chinese governkent will just forget about the experience are accept Chinese government lead in the future?

Yes. Cultural revolution and "the four olds" come to mind.

"The Four Olds or the Four Old Things (simplified Chinese: 四旧; traditional Chinese: 四舊; pinyin: sì jiù) was a term used during the Cultural Revolution by the student-led Red Guards in the People's Republic of China in reference to the pre-communist elements of Chinese culture they attempted to destroy. The Four Olds were: Old Ideas, Old Culture, Old Habits, and Old Customs "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Olds


"The Revolution marked Mao's return to the central position of power in China after a period of less radical leadership to recover from the failures of the Great Leap Forward, which contributed to the Great Chinese Famine only five years prior."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution

What do Chinese think of Mao today?

I think the French nation was built on much cruelty towards people in the South.
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Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Sat Feb 20, 2021 10:33 am

c933103 wrote:
Sokes wrote:
meecrob wrote:

And this is based on what?

On the achievements of the Chinese government. I'm also not a friend of balkanization.

I thibk you need to realize that many Chinese provinces have hundred of million residents each, and places like Xinjiang if become independent would be the second largest and second most populous country in Central Asia (Not counting Russia), and thus cannot be described as "balkanization"

Yes, Xinjang is huge. But population is only something around 25 million people. Why mention 100 million? However by now there are nearly as many Han as Uyghurs living in the province. If we hypothetically send the 41% Han back to what would remain of China only 15 million or so would remain.

But agreed. They could easily make their own nation. I even have sympathy for the Kurdish demand of an own state, which obviously contradicts what I say here.
Suppose the Han would wish them well and say "If you want to leave, go in peace." Would other groups start making claims?
If the Turkish would wish the Kurdish well, would other groups start making claims?

Hitler in "Mein Kampf" wrote how he had to discuss endless to convince a Bavarian about the importance of Germany. Many Bavarians of the time would have preferred to be on their own. No camps at German unification. Instead Bismarck made three wars which gave people a nationalist fever.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unification_of_Germany
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Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Sat Feb 20, 2021 10:58 am

Sokes wrote:
Yes, Xinjang is huge. But population is only something around 25 million people. Why mention 100 million? However by now there are nearly as many Han as Uyghurs living in the province. If we hypothetically send the 41% Han back to what would remain of China only 15 million or so would remain.

25 Million would still make them the second most populous country in the area.
Population of other countries in the area are,
Uzbekistan 33 Million
Kazakhstan 18 Million
Tajikistan 9 Million
Turkmenistan 6 Million
Kyrgyzstan 6 Million
Mongolia 3 Million
Even with 15 Million they would still be third
And I don't think all Han would left once it achieved independence, as can be see with like the amount of White people remaining in Africa after their decolonization, or the amount of Chinese people staying in Southeast Asia after the local population gaining control of their own countries.
But agreed. They could easily make their own nation. I even have sympathy for the Kurdish demand of an own state, which obviously contradicts what I say here.
Suppose the Han would wish them well and say "If you want to leave, go in peace." Would other groups start making claims?
If the Turkish would wish the Kurdish well, would other groups start making claims?

That's why I mention that hundred million figure. Suposedly even if all groups in China decided to break up amd form their own states, they wouldn't become a number of balkanized mini stes, but will instead be a number of large states with same size as Japan or Germany.
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate 求同存異 よく見て・よく聞いて・よく考える
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Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Sat Feb 20, 2021 12:35 pm

Sokes wrote:
c933103 wrote:
...
Do you think people after being treated as such by Chinese governkent will just forget about the experience are accept Chinese government lead in the future?

Yes. Cultural revolution and "the four olds" come to mind.

"The Four Olds or the Four Old Things (simplified Chinese: 四旧; traditional Chinese: 四舊; pinyin: sì jiù) was a term used during the Cultural Revolution by the student-led Red Guards in the People's Republic of China in reference to the pre-communist elements of Chinese culture they attempted to destroy. The Four Olds were: Old Ideas, Old Culture, Old Habits, and Old Customs "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Olds


"The Revolution marked Mao's return to the central position of power in China after a period of less radical leadership to recover from the failures of the Great Leap Forward, which contributed to the Great Chinese Famine only five years prior."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution

What do Chinese think of Mao today?

I think the French nation was built on much cruelty towards people in the South.


Again, the topic is modern China, not France in the 18th and 19th centuries. Bavarians for unification and 'Mein Kampf'...seriously? You just can't help yourself.
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Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Sat Feb 20, 2021 1:47 pm

meecrob wrote:
Sokes wrote:
I assume nothing good would come out of it if the Uighurs would get their independence.


And this is based on what?


Make a list islamic insurections vs outcome. ( All in shards. )
Add a field for who clandestinely financed/supported them from the off.

Afaics: For China as a state Uighur unrest is a foreign organized/bankrolled activity. ( Why is the US so very much interested in having unsupervised access to Afghanistan and its borders? )
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Sat Feb 20, 2021 1:56 pm

WIederling wrote:
meecrob wrote:
Sokes wrote:
I assume nothing good would come out of it if the Uighurs would get their independence.


And this is based on what?


Make a list islamic insurections vs outcome. ( All in shards. )
Add a field for who clandestinely financed/supported them from the off.

Afaics: For China as a state Uighur unrest is a foreign organized/bankrolled activity. ( Why is the US so very much interested in having unsupervised access to Afghanistan and its borders? )

What are you talking about?
Afghanistan is consistently unstable, before US it was Soviet, and in older era it's also touched by other empires
Accprdimg to my conversation with people from Afghanistan, Afghanistani government have no power to combat against local Taliban groups, which threaten the life of local population not aligned with them from time to time. When the news of last year's proposes US agreement and withdrawal from Afghanistan was being proppsed, they're worried that it could worsen the local safety situation.
Also, over the last decade there are no any real "insurection"in Xinjiang area, thus it isn't possible to talk about who "fund" such non-existence thing. Last major incident in the area was in year 2009 when there were large scale clashes across race, and that can hardly be classified as some sort of insurrection.
If you want to trace the origin of their movement back to before WWII, then they have received a few support from the Soviet according to my understanding but that's only very limited and historical
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Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:15 pm

Sokes wrote:
Hitler in "Mein Kampf" wrote how he had to discuss endless to convince a Bavarian about the importance of Germany. Many Bavarians of the time would have preferred to be on their own. No camps at German unification. Instead Bismarck made three wars which gave people a nationalist fever.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unification_of_Germany


I was very hesitant to raise a comparison of your thoughts to someone like hitler thinking it would be way too "internet cliche" and you go and do it for me! Just so we're both clear, you do realize there was an entire world fucking war fought because someone held views similar to yours? You are allowed freedom of thought, but you cannot have any freedom when your thought comes into conflict with another life's will to simply exist. It is not okay to commit genocide, full stop.

I suggest you familiarize yourself with this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_...

"Sokes" doesn't sound very Han Chinese to me...
Last edited by meecrob on Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:24 pm

c933103 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
So, Biden speaks out AGAINST China and Republicans are disappointed that Biden speaks out against China or something? Methinks MAGA is grasping at straws to simply gin up the base....

Where are Republicans?
Also, my understanding of what he said is he sais he will speaks out against China but that would stay verbal and nothing more


Diplomacy is not a one and done deal. A person can not simply take an ax to something that requires a scalpel. It will probably look like Biden is bending over backward for the Chinese. Righties have already framed his administration like that. Truth is, China still owns us. He can not just bully his way through this.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:54 pm

c933103 wrote:
WIederling wrote:
meecrob wrote:

And this is based on what?


Make a list islamic insurections vs outcome. ( All in shards. )
Add a field for who clandestinely financed/supported them from the off.

Afaics: For China as a state Uighur unrest is a foreign organized/bankrolled activity. ( Why is the US so very much interested in having unsupervised access to Afghanistan and its borders? )

What are you talking about?
Afghanistan is consistently unstable, before US it was Soviet, and in older era it's also touched by other empires
Accprdimg to my conversation with people from Afghanistan, Afghanistani government have no power to combat against local Taliban groups, which threaten the life of local population not aligned with them from time to time. When the news of last year's proposes US agreement and withdrawal from Afghanistan was being proppsed, they're worried that it could worsen the local safety situation.
Also, over the last decade there are no any real "insurection"in Xinjiang area, thus it isn't possible to talk about who "fund" such non-existence thing. Last major incident in the area was in year 2009 when there were large scale clashes across race, and that can hardly be classified as some sort of insurrection.
If you want to trace the origin of their movement back to before WWII, then they have received a few support from the Soviet according to my understanding but that's only very limited and historical


There is a lot of alternate facts in your account.
Additionally you did not understand what I wrote.

Starting cue to understanding: How were the Taliban created and how did they "pop" into existence. Who financed the madrassas they were indotrinated in.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Sat Feb 20, 2021 5:04 pm

Sokes wrote:
Instead Bismarck made three wars which gave people a nationalist fever.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unification_of_Germany


That was one aspect.
Another:
A bit more insidious: He created a situation were the "disinterested party" needed the new found "Reich" as an ally. "zwischen den Stühlen" so to speak. Interesting book around telling some alternate history: "An den Feuern der Leyermark" by Carl Amery.
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Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Sat Feb 20, 2021 5:40 pm

meecrob wrote:
I suggest you familiarize yourself with this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_...


.. Free Speech....

I really hate it when certain interest groups try to play this 3-cushion wise for their own nefarious purposes.

be that massive provocation to create a "self defense" retaliatory situation
or coopt others to "help" under the pretext of endangered freedom.
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Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Sat Feb 20, 2021 5:46 pm

seb146 wrote:
Diplomacy is not a one and done deal. A person can not simply take an ax to something that requires a scalpel. It will probably look like Biden is bending over backward for the Chinese. Righties have already framed his administration like that. Truth is, China still owns us. He can not just bully his way through this.

While I cannot tell by which metric you are referring tp that China owns the US, if people think that is the case then shouldn't the trsponse be direct action pn such aspect instead of exchange of words on international council and stop there?

WIederling wrote:
There is a lot of alternate facts in your account.
Additionally you did not understand what I wrote.

Starting cue to understanding: How were the Taliban created and how did they "pop" into existence. Who financed the madrassas they were indotrinated in.

https://www.dni.gov/nctc/groups/afghan_taliban.html
The Taliban is a Sunni Islamist nationalist and pro-Pashtun movement founded in the early 1990s that ruled most of Afghanistan from 1996 until October 2001. The movement’s founding nucleus—the word “Taliban” is Pashto for “students”—was composed of peasant farmers and men studying Islam in Afghan and Pakistani madrasas, or religious schools. The Taliban found a foothold and consolidated their strength in southern Afghanistan.

Like many militia groups, it is a ethical-social-religion complex, attracting people of foundation level in society to join, and fight for their own group of people.
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate 求同存異 よく見て・よく聞いて・よく考える
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Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Sat Feb 20, 2021 5:58 pm

c933103 wrote:
https://www.dni.gov/nctc/groups/afghan_taliban.html
The Taliban is a Sunni Islamist nationalist and pro-Pashtun movement founded in the early 1990s that ruled most of Afghanistan from 1996 until October 2001. The movement’s founding nucleus—the word “Taliban” is Pashto for “students”—was composed of peasant farmers and men studying Islam in Afghan and Pakistani madrasas, or religious schools. The Taliban found a foothold and consolidated their strength in southern Afghanistan.

Like many militia groups, it is a ethical-social-religion complex, attracting people of foundation level in society to join, and fight for their own group of people.


Nicely sanitized.
Vulgo:
Afghani orphans collected and schooled in the pakistani border region.
As a front operated by Jamiat Ulema-e-Islam ( a pakistani party )
financed via ISI getting moneys funneled from the CIA.

my opinion: creating a governing class in the way the Turks had their Janisarries as intermediates. Only much less in your face.

Having to Fight the Taliban is Blowback.
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Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Sat Feb 20, 2021 7:00 pm

WIederling wrote:
c933103 wrote:
https://www.dni.gov/nctc/groups/afghan_taliban.html
The Taliban is a Sunni Islamist nationalist and pro-Pashtun movement founded in the early 1990s that ruled most of Afghanistan from 1996 until October 2001. The movement’s founding nucleus—the word “Taliban” is Pashto for “students”—was composed of peasant farmers and men studying Islam in Afghan and Pakistani madrasas, or religious schools. The Taliban found a foothold and consolidated their strength in southern Afghanistan.

Like many militia groups, it is a ethical-social-religion complex, attracting people of foundation level in society to join, and fight for their own group of people.


Nicely sanitized.
Vulgo:
Afghani orphans collected and schooled in the pakistani border region.
As a front operated by Jamiat Ulema-e-Islam ( a pakistani party )
financed via ISI getting moneys funneled from the CIA.

my opinion: creating a governing class in the way the Turks had their Janisarries as intermediates. Only much less in your face.

Having to Fight the Taliban is Blowback.

With those people settling across Pakistani and Afghanistani border belonging to same ethnic group and there are people there that follow some extreme religion values, this is prone to happen when the country itself cannot provide proper education instead.
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Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Sat Feb 20, 2021 11:04 pm

meecrob wrote:
It is not okay to commit genocide, full stop.

Which genocide are you talking about?
Genocide is if one kills people because of their ethnicity.
If one tries to reduce the fertility of women because of their ethnicity, it's also called genocide. IIRC the Uighurs were excluded from the one child policy. In that sense the Chines government has committed genocide against the Han earlier. Now it's the Uighurs' turn. Though the Uighurs are still allowed two children. The Han had it worse. Just see for yourself what the media makes out of it:
https://apnews.com/article/269b3de1af34 ... 14f78d764c
I just hope that thanks to the two child policy children can enjoy a little better toys in future.

Some Uighurs want a Muslim society with Muslim laws. That won't be possible within China. So these religious people advocate independence. We saw in the you tube link provided earlier what talk the Muslim preacher in the Turkish Mosque gave. China on the other hand wants to secularize the population. They also want the Uighurs to develop a mentality of being Chinese first, being Uighurs or Muslims second.
Since I would prefer to live under the Chinese government than under some religious nuts, I support China.

It does violate the right to self determination of the Uighurs. But I don't believe in that. I believe in self determination on an individual level. And I see that far better ensured under the Chines government. Moreover I see prosperity much better ensured under the Chinese. And I support that a government put restrictions on fertility.
To know what is going on in collective society I recommend Arundhati Roy "The god of small things". Violation of individual rights is what collective societies do all the time. I move within the Indian working class. I know what I talk about. At least I see some good coming out of the Chinese individual rights violation.

I read a certain amount of books. When I think about something I remember stories of these books which resemble the problem at hand. I do see a similarity between the Uighurs not to feel Chines first and the former Bavarians of not feeling German first. Since I read about it in "Mein Kampf" I quoted the source.
Hitler was paranoid and maybe sadistic. He wasn't stupid.
You think one mustn't build highways because Hitler was very much in it?

"Sokes" doesn't sound very Han Chinese to me...

If you want to know:
I don't like Xi Jinping much.
Deng was super. He wanted development. At the same time he he advised to not show of. Focus till Xi Jinping was on development and infrastructure. There was no excessive spending on military and no military adventures. The world admired China and wished China well.

But Xi Jinping did not like the two term rule. To become supreme leader for good he started unnecessary dramas in the South China sea. The resulting nationalist sentiment secured his position.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
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Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:49 am

Sokes wrote:
meecrob wrote:
It is not okay to commit genocide, full stop.

Which genocide are you talking about?
Genocide is if one kills people because of their ethnicity.
If one tries to reduce the fertility of women because of their ethnicity, it's also called genocide. IIRC the Uighurs were excluded from the one child policy. In that sense the Chines government has committed genocide against the Han earlier. Now it's the Uighurs' turn. Though the Uighurs are still allowed two children. The Han had it worse. Just see for yourself what the media makes out of it:
https://apnews.com/article/269b3de1af34 ... 14f78d764c
I just hope that thanks to the two child policy children can enjoy a little better toys in future.

Some Uighurs want a Muslim society with Muslim laws. That won't be possible within China. So these religious people advocate independence. We saw in the you tube link provided earlier what talk the Muslim preacher in the Turkish Mosque gave. China on the other hand wants to secularize the population. They also want the Uighurs to develop a mentality of being Chinese first, being Uighurs or Muslims second.
Since I would prefer to live under the Chinese government than under some religious nuts, I support China.

It does violate the right to self determination of the Uighurs. But I don't believe in that. I believe in self determination on an individual level. And I see that far better ensured under the Chines government. Moreover I see prosperity much better ensured under the Chinese. And I support that a government put restrictions on fertility.
To know what is going on in collective society I recommend Arundhati Roy "The god of small things". Violation of individual rights is what collective societies do all the time. I move within the Indian working class. I know what I talk about. At least I see some good coming out of the Chinese individual rights violation.

I read a certain amount of books. When I think about something I remember stories of these books which resemble the problem at hand. I do see a similarity between the Uighurs not to feel Chines first and the former Bavarians of not feeling German first. Since I read about it in "Mein Kampf" I quoted the source.
Hitler was paranoid and maybe sadistic. He wasn't stupid.
You think one mustn't build highways because Hitler was very much in it?

"Sokes" doesn't sound very Han Chinese to me...

If you want to know:
I don't like Xi Jinping much.
Deng was super. He wanted development. At the same time he he advised to not show of. Focus till Xi Jinping was on development and infrastructure. There was no excessive spending on military and no military adventures. The world admired China and wished China well.

But Xi Jinping did not like the two term rule. To become supreme leader for good he started unnecessary dramas in the South China sea. The resulting nationalist sentiment secured his position.

「China’s Abuse of the Uighurs: Does the Genocide Label Fit? | Council on Foreign Relations」:https://www.cfr.org/article/chinas-abuse-uighurs-does-genocide-label-fit
There are legal definition on genocide in international convention, you can look at it yourself.
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Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:53 pm

c933103 wrote:
「China’s Abuse of the Uighurs: Does the Genocide Label Fit? | Council on Foreign Relations」:https://www.cfr.org/article/chinas-abuse-uighurs-does-genocide-label-fit
There are legal definition on genocide in international convention, you can look at it yourself.


Interesting dissemination.
it stumbles on two things.

religious dogma : reporting in select media is taken at face value.
for a meaningful assessment you'd first have to confirm the circumstances.

" Council on Foreign Relations" is a Think Tank.
They are not scientific analyzer but introducer of political position.
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Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Thu Feb 25, 2021 2:23 pm

The thing is, other Chinese people are treated no better. They're not in camps because they're not as "unruly" as the Uighur. Protest too much and you end up in prison or worse. Denounce corruption and get disappeared.
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Re: Biden: China’s Uighur genocide is part of ‘different cultural norms’

Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:16 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Yes but at this time that means aligning with other countries’ views on human rights after the last administration failed to.

What are the other countries' view on human rights? My understanding is they won't simply see it as different cultural norms?
There will not be any coordinated economic action involving Germany, Canada, Australia etc aligned against PRC when the global economy is weak.

So the answer is let countries like Australia or Canada deal with China's pressure individually? Wouldn't it be worse?


You would have to ask them. That’s one of the problems with how the world works - certain countries agree on values and what to cooperate on, then a different leader comes in and says ‘nah not anymore’ and then the relations need to be rebuilt.

As for human rights, the consensus is longstanding and is restated time and again: we stand for x,y,z in the west. European countries speak more forcefully in terms of ‘shoulds’ than the US because they have fewer deep entanglements with states that ignore human rights (ex-US and Saudi Arabia), but PRC is a different animal. Everyone says what’s happening there is wrong, but the conversation ends there. The victims are Muslim and only SJWs are very active about that. Even Gulf countries have been pretty quiet about the Uighur issue. That speaks to PRC’s consolidation of influence over the last 15 years.


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