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c933103
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Hong Kong government to change the election law requiring loyalty

Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:40 pm

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/a ... -1.4492772
https://www.hongkongwatch.org/all-posts ... -hong-kong
As Chinese government require Hong Kong to be run by patriots and define patriots as anyone who're loyal to the People's Republic of China and the Chinese Communist Party, the Hong Kong government is pushing a new law that requires everyone in elected positions to take an oath certifying their loyalty, with anyone found to be not following the oath will be disqualified from their elected position and will be banned from joining any future elections for five years.
The Hong Kong government have already signalled that some district councilors at local level will be disqualified following the law's passage.
With the city's legislature already void of oppositions, these changes is expected to be enacted relatively quickly, before upcoming elections which was delayed from last year under the claimed reason of coronavirus pandemic by the Hong Kong government.
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Re: Hong Kong government to change the election law requiring loyalty

Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:17 pm

c933103 wrote:
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/asia-pacific/hong-kong-drafts-law-to-make-politicians-swear-loyalty-oath-to-beijing-1.4492772
https://www.hongkongwatch.org/all-posts ... -hong-kong
As Chinese government require Hong Kong to be run by patriots and define patriots as anyone who're loyal to the People's Republic of China and the Chinese Communist Party, the Hong Kong government is pushing a new law that requires everyone in elected positions to take an oath certifying their loyalty, with anyone found to be not following the oath will be disqualified from their elected position and will be banned from joining any future elections for five years.
The Hong Kong government have already signalled that some district councilors at local level will be disqualified following the law's passage.
With the city's legislature already void of oppositions, these changes is expected to be enacted relatively quickly, before upcoming elections which was delayed from last year under the claimed reason of coronavirus pandemic by the Hong Kong government.

Puppet city state.

As any entity under the influence or control of China is.

Puppets.

Tugg
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Re: Hong Kong government to change the election law requiring loyalty

Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:42 pm

What a sad time but the reality is that the PRC wants to end the long and bad history of HK being a colony of the UK that was sold out by corrupt and bad governments of the mid-to late 1800's. One has to wonder if many international banks and financial companies will pull out of HK due to the new PRC control and lack of security.
 
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Re: Hong Kong government to change the election law requiring loyalty

Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:46 pm

ltbewr wrote:
What a sad time but the reality is that the PRC wants to end the long and bad history of HK being a colony of the UK that was sold out by corrupt and bad governments of the mid-to late 1800's.

Well if they want to end that then why are they taking over? I mean the CCCP is as bad and as corrupt as they get.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
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Re: Hong Kong government to change the election law requiring loyalty

Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:09 am

Tugger wrote:
Puppet city state.

As any entity under the influence or control of China is.

Puppets.

Tugg
Watch out or you'll incur the wrath of the "the US is just as bad or worse" crowd here.
 
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Re: Hong Kong government to change the election law requiring loyalty

Wed Feb 24, 2021 10:47 am

ltbewr wrote:
What a sad time but the reality is that the PRC wants to end the long and bad history of HK being a colony of the UK that was sold out by corrupt and bad governments of the mid-to late 1800's. One has to wonder if many international banks and financial companies will pull out of HK due to the new PRC control and lack of security.

The Qing government in the 19th century was essentially a colonial government setup by Manchurian over the area nowadays collectively known as China. Hong Kong being established as a colony of the UK is thus a result of a colonial power lose to another and being forced to hand over their property as a result of war and their declining power.
As communist take control of the country, while they're formed by local resudents of the country instead of being a foreign invasion force, their relations with other area outside China Proper that was occupied by the Manchurian under Qing were still not the kind of relationship you would expect from a government of its own people. And now they're applying such relationship to other area they take control of more recently.
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Re: Hong Kong government to change the election law requiring loyalty

Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:15 am

Tugger wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
What a sad time but the reality is that the PRC wants to end the long and bad history of HK being a colony of the UK that was sold out by corrupt and bad governments of the mid-to late 1800's.

Well if they want to end that then why are they taking over? I mean the CCCP is as bad and as corrupt as they get.

Tugg

In my opinion, what made Hong Kong economically special cannot survive a loyalty test.

Lightsaber
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Re: Hong Kong government to change the election law requiring loyalty

Sat Feb 27, 2021 2:35 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Tugger wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
What a sad time but the reality is that the PRC wants to end the long and bad history of HK being a colony of the UK that was sold out by corrupt and bad governments of the mid-to late 1800's.

Well if they want to end that then why are they taking over? I mean the CCCP is as bad and as corrupt as they get.

Tugg

In my opinion, what made Hong Kong economically special cannot survive a loyalty test.

Lightsaber


The reason why the story of Golden Goose has relevance is peoples' tendency to kill Golden Geese.

The CCP remains the runaway genocide body count winner of the 20th century, and there isn't much reason to believe that they will fundamentally change.
 
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Re: Hong Kong government to change the election law requiring loyalty

Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:19 am

Tugger wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
What a sad time but the reality is that the PRC wants to end the long and bad history of HK being a colony of the UK that was sold out by corrupt and bad governments of the mid-to late 1800's.

Well if they want to end that then why are they taking over? I mean the CCCP is as bad and as corrupt as they get.

Tugg

The CCP is honoring the 1997 treaty with the UK. Not like it matters if they end it prematurely...is the West really gonna try to invade HK to protect it from China? What does that mean for Macau next door? The Chinese Military has yet to flex its muscle in a direct confrontation with world powers and I don't think the West is eager to let them do it either.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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Re: Hong Kong government to change the election law requiring loyalty

Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:56 am

Once HK is fully absorbed, Macau will quietly disappear since it will see the writing on the wall. Many more people have heard of Hong Kong than Macau.
 
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Re: Hong Kong government to change the election law requiring loyalty

Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:17 am

I just have to think there will be citizens that will wished they left Hong Kong when the going was good.
 
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Re: Hong Kong government to change the election law requiring loyalty

Sun Feb 28, 2021 2:00 am

johns624 wrote:
Once HK is fully absorbed, Macau will quietly disappear since it will see the writing on the wall. Many more people have heard of Hong Kong than Macau.

Politically Macau is closer to China mainland.
In year 2019 during the height of protest in Hong Kong, there were some Macanese citizens who're trying to signal their support to the movement in Hong Kong by silently standing on a plaza but they're all taken away by the local police
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Re: Hong Kong government to change the election law requiring loyalty

Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:40 am

lightsaber wrote:
Tugger wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
What a sad time but the reality is that the PRC wants to end the long and bad history of HK being a colony of the UK that was sold out by corrupt and bad governments of the mid-to late 1800's.

Well if they want to end that then why are they taking over? I mean the CCCP is as bad and as corrupt as they get.
Tugg

In my opinion, what made Hong Kong economically special cannot survive a loyalty test.
Lightsaber

The PRC government hasn't been 'communist' since the 1990's becoming a unique 'authoritarian capitalism' one. They want control over what they believe is historically China and beyond to include HK, Macau, Taiwan and a large territory to include 1000's of Sq. Kms. of open seas as part of their 'One China' plans. The PRC government knows that little will be done by the 'Western' powers to stop the PRC's plans. There will be no military confrontation and any financial sanctions will be near impossible due to so much of our consumer goods are made there. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-China_policy
 
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Re: Hong Kong government to change the election law requiring loyalty

Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:08 pm

ltbewr wrote:
The PRC government hasn't been 'communist' since the 1990's becoming a unique 'authoritarian capitalism' one. They want control over what they believe is historically China and beyond to include HK, Macau, Taiwan and a large territory to include 1000's of Sq. Kms. of open seas as part of their 'One China' plans.

That doesn't make thing any easier
Also the sea part is more about the island chain theory.
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Re: Hong Kong government to change the election law requiring loyalty

Sun Feb 28, 2021 4:20 pm

This was guaranteed in 1990's when the UK left. Hong Kong is on the way out.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
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Re: Hong Kong government to change the election law requiring loyalty

Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:33 pm

The success of Shenzhen seems to obviate the need for Hong Kong and all its pesky Western freedoms.
 
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Re: Hong Kong government to change the election law requiring loyalty

Tue Mar 02, 2021 6:11 pm

Never change a running system.
While I would not have advised China to introduce democracy for maybe another ten years I would not advise to change something with Hong Kong either.

Somehow I don't like like the Chinese government any more. Or better: I start distrusting it.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
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Re: Hong Kong government to change the election law requiring loyalty

Tue Mar 02, 2021 7:40 pm

ltbewr wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Well if they want to end that then why are they taking over? I mean the CCCP is as bad and as corrupt as they get.
Tugg

In my opinion, what made Hong Kong economically special cannot survive a loyalty test.
Lightsaber

The PRC government hasn't been 'communist' since the 1990's becoming a unique 'authoritarian capitalism' one. They want control over what they believe is historically China and beyond to include HK, Macau, Taiwan and a large territory to include 1000's of Sq. Kms. of open seas as part of their 'One China' plans. The PRC government knows that little will be done by the 'Western' powers to stop the PRC's plans. There will be no military confrontation and any financial sanctions will be near impossible due to so much of our consumer goods are made there. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-China_policy


They’ll get them all except taiwan.
 
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Re: Hong Kong government to change the election law requiring loyalty

Thu Mar 04, 2021 4:09 am

ltbewr wrote:
The PRC government knows that little will be done by the 'Western' powers to stop the PRC's plans. There will be no military confrontation and any financial sanctions will be near impossible due to so much of our consumer goods are made there. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-China_policy

I agree.
But so many decades the West and China worked well together. The Chinese got badly needed technology transfer, the West cheap consumer products. All went well. These dramas may help Xi to stabilize his power. But for Western people and for those Chinese whose mind isn't clouded by nationalist pride the situation is becoming unnecessary complicated.

Funny: when China's rise seemed unstoppable the book "Why nations fail" predicted that China's rise can't last. Division of power is what makes countries succeed in the long run.

Interesting: Authoritarian regimes can be quite successful for some time. Socialism in Russia worked wonders from Lenin till Khrushchev. Think of the Sputnik shock.
Wilhelm the I was fantastic for Germany, Wilhelm the II not so much.

I guess China can remain authoritarian and economically successful if judges are independent from politics. But then the Communist party could still pass crooked laws or supply so little finance to the ministry of justice that there are not enough or not well paid judges.
Since most parts of China are still poor I have to assume that the legal system doesn't protect investments over large areas and that those areas who have industry concentrated have well meaning politicians.
Can anybody correct or confirm this last point?
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
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Re: Hong Kong government to change the election law requiring loyalty

Thu Mar 04, 2021 9:27 am

Sokes wrote:
I guess China can remain authoritarian and economically successful if judges are independent from politics. But then the Communist party could still pass crooked laws or supply so little finance to the ministry of justice that there are not enough or not well paid judges.
Since most parts of China are still poor I have to assume that the legal system doesn't protect investments over large areas and that those areas who have industry concentrated have well meaning politicians.
Can anybody correct or confirm this last point?

Judges in China are not independent of politics.
Not quite sure what your last point meant. How do you define large area? Many of the industries in China are nationalised so local politicians are not big part of the equation.
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Re: Hong Kong government to change the election law requiring loyalty

Thu Mar 04, 2021 12:02 pm

Further proposal from China on changes to the Hong Kong election system have been announced unofficially through people with power.
https://www.hkcnews.com/article/38643/% ... 7/rita-fan
https://hd.stheadline.com/news/columns/ ... D%E7%8F%BE
- Half of the legislative council, the popularly elected side, will adopt Binominal electoral system, which have two open seat in each electoral district, and two third vite is required for any side to win more than half amount of seats
- The other half of the legislative council, the functional constituency, will remove representative from the district council, and also reduce the number of seats that are elected by individuals in different industries, instead it will add in representative elected by the electoral council
- All legislative council candidate need to be nominated by the said electoral council
- District councilors will be removed from the district council, and is being suggested to have HK representative in China's CPPCC council, as well as HK representative in China's national federation of industry and commerce, federation of women, federation of youth, and auch to take seat in the electoral council
These mechanism should guarantee that, even without interference in candidate qualifications, candidates that support Chinese government will get supermajority in the legislative council, and continues to enjoy overwhelming majority in the electoral council
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Re: Hong Kong government to change the election law requiring loyalty

Thu Mar 04, 2021 4:50 pm

In other news:
Germany's encyclopedia "Brockhaus" in its 1937 edition had the problem how to define "democracy". It gave the proper definition and added something like "Germany is also a democracy as the will of the people is represented by our leader Adolf Hitler."
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
Sokes
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Re: Hong Kong government to change the election law requiring loyalty

Thu Mar 04, 2021 5:07 pm

Cerecl wrote:
Sokes wrote:
...
Since most parts of China are still poor I have to assume that the legal system doesn't protect investments over large areas and that those areas who have industry concentrated have well meaning politicians.
Can anybody correct or confirm this last point?

Judges in China are not independent of politics.
Not quite sure what your last point meant. How do you define large area? Many of the industries in China are nationalised so local politicians are not big part of the equation.

In India industries are located in a few places next to cities. Strange enough business is possible in one place, but not 40 km away even though it's the same state. I assume the politicians in the cities with industries try to extract money from real estate development. If they get good bribes from builders, why to trouble industry? That only spoils their business.
But nobody ever told me this. It's my personal hypothesis while trying to make sense about the difference of two cities 40 km apart. I asked a small businessman in one industrial town why business prospers in his town, but not a little away. He told me "Our politicians are big fish. They want to eat big fish. They are not interested in small fish like me." His answer doesn't convince me.

Excluding agricultural processing sometimes one can drive hundreds of kilometers without seeing a factory. In most areas of India businesses face too much political hassles.
In each place one can find ambitious people. There is no way a place with good politics can stay poor. Since China also has large areas that are poor I assume what is true in India is also true in concerned areas of China.
What you tell about Chinese judges rather confirms my suspicion.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
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Re: Hong Kong government to change the election law requiring loyalty

Thu Mar 04, 2021 5:43 pm

Sokes wrote:
Cerecl wrote:
Sokes wrote:
...
Since most parts of China are still poor I have to assume that the legal system doesn't protect investments over large areas and that those areas who have industry concentrated have well meaning politicians.
Can anybody correct or confirm this last point?

Judges in China are not independent of politics.
Not quite sure what your last point meant. How do you define large area? Many of the industries in China are nationalised so local politicians are not big part of the equation.

In India industries are located in a few places next to cities. Strange enough business is possible in one place, but not 40 km away even though it's the same state. I assume the politicians in the cities with industries try to extract money from real estate development. If they get good bribes from builders, why to trouble industry? That only spoils their business.
But nobody ever told me this. It's my personal hypothesis while trying to make sense about the difference of two cities 40 km apart. I asked a small businessman in one industrial town why business prospers in his town, but not a little away. He told me "Our politicians are big fish. They want to eat big fish. They are not interested in small fish like me." His answer doesn't convince me.

Excluding agricultural processing sometimes one can drive hundreds of kilometers without seeing a factory. In most areas of India businesses face too much political hassles.
In each place one can find ambitious people. There is no way a place with good politics can stay poor. Since China also has large areas that are poor I assume what is true in India is also true in concerned areas of China.
What you tell about Chinese judges rather confirms my suspicion.

This is too big a theme to be discussed in this thread which topic is totally unrelated, but I would just say that if you want to operate a business in China Mainland there are many things the government can do to change how easy or how hard it can get for business to operate besides using law
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate 求同存異 よく見て・よく聞いて・よく考える
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Re: Hong Kong government to change the election law requiring loyalty

Mon Mar 08, 2021 8:58 am

https://news.rthk.hk/rthk/ch/component/ ... 210308.htm
Carrie Lam claim that, as pro-government politicians also serve "The People", they are also "democratic", and thus people should stop labelling politicians in Hong Kong according to whether they support the government or democracy, and anyone can join the election as long as they are "patriotic"
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate 求同存異 よく見て・よく聞いて・よく考える
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Re: Hong Kong government to change the election law requiring loyalty

Tue Mar 09, 2021 8:44 am

Sokes wrote:
In other news:
Germany's encyclopedia "Brockhaus" in its 1937 edition had the problem how to define "democracy". It gave the proper definition and added something like "Germany is also a democracy as the will of the people is represented by our leader Adolf Hitler."


The (theoretical) difference between Communism and Fascism.
( ignore the real existing versions of each which are not too different.)

Communism assumes that the population intrinsically knows the right way.
Fascism assumes that extrinsic single person leadership is required to go the right way.

( some interesting fictional stuff around that tries to cover this:
B.F.Skinner : Walden II, LeGuin : The Disposessed : A.E.van Vogt : World of NULL A )
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Re: Hong Kong government to change the election law requiring loyalty

Tue Mar 09, 2021 3:19 pm

c933103 wrote:
https://news.rthk.hk/rthk/ch/component/k2/1579365-20210308.htm
Carrie Lam claim that, as pro-government politicians also serve "The People", they are also "democratic", and thus people should stop labelling politicians in Hong Kong according to whether they support the government or democracy, and anyone can join the election as long as they are "patriotic"


(I haven't post in a long long time)
IMHO I have no clue who Curried Lamb is trying to fool. The "western" world who knows better? Some random patriotic Chinese? Or just an echo chamber.

Cerecl wrote:
Sokes wrote:
I guess China can remain authoritarian and economically successful if judges are independent from politics. But then the Communist party could still pass crooked laws or supply so little finance to the ministry of justice that there are not enough or not well paid judges.
Since most parts of China are still poor I have to assume that the legal system doesn't protect investments over large areas and that those areas who have industry concentrated have well meaning politicians.
Can anybody correct or confirm this last point?

Judges in China are not independent of politics.
Not quite sure what your last point meant. How do you define large area? Many of the industries in China are nationalised so local politicians are not big part of the equation.


And judges in HK are increasingly not independent of politics. For months now they basically try to spin that HK doesn't have true "separation of power".

Sokes wrote:
Since most parts of China are still poor I have to assume that the legal system doesn't protect investments over large areas and that those areas who have industry concentrated have well meaning politicians.


What do you mean? Per the latest report from mainland there is no more poor people in China!

lightsaber wrote:
In my opinion, what made Hong Kong economically special cannot survive a loyalty test.

Lightsaber


This! The HK govt still wants to have things both way, except, with the increasingly lack of rule of law in HK, why should business stay there? If they want to invest in China, they will go directly to where money really is i.e. Shanghai or Shenzhen. Cut off the middleman and lower cost (and lower rent, lower labor cost, etc).
 
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Re: Hong Kong government to change the election law requiring loyalty

Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:35 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
c933103 wrote:
https://news.rthk.hk/rthk/ch/component/k2/1579365-20210308.htm
Carrie Lam claim that, as pro-government politicians also serve "The People", they are also "democratic", and thus people should stop labelling politicians in Hong Kong according to whether they support the government or democracy, and anyone can join the election as long as they are "patriotic"


(I haven't post in a long long time)
IMHO I have no clue who Curried Lamb is trying to fool. The "western" world who knows better? Some random patriotic Chinese? Or just an echo chamber.
I think the key here is, the word for "The People" she use in Chinese, is renmin, which is not often used by Hong Kong government in the past, but it is the same word as the "People" as in "People's Republic of China".
According to Chinese dictionary from China, this word renmin for "People" doesn't just mean anyone. https://cd.hwxnet.com/view/jaccaoahfbckpdcc.html
Instead, the word renmin mean:
- In a classed society, the basic member of a society who are opposite to enemy. Formed by certain classes, level and social groups, mainly centered around workers. In current stage of China, People (renmin) mean all Socialist workers (Workers, Farmers, and Intelligentsia), patriots who support socialism, patriots who support the unification of China.
In other words, it doesn't cover anyone who disagree with them.

Also, as China have defined in their own constitution, the system adopted by Central Chinese government is called "People's Democratic Dictatorship". http://www.npc.gov.cn/npc/c13475/201004 ... a9a4.shtml
As indicated in the third point of this official explanation, "People's Democratic Dictatorship" mean giving democracy to "most people" and adopt dictatorship against "enemy". It have defined the term "minority enemy" as: Criminal who threaten the national safety/the People's Democratic Dictatorship system/the Socialism system, Criminals who disrupt the Socialism economic order, Criminals who violated human right, democratic right and other right of the public, and Criminal who disrupted the management of social order. As Mao Zedong have said, different classes have their "place" in the country formed in 1949, it claimed that after the success of communist revolution in China with workers and farmers reigning the country through proletariat political party, they also have to make use of private capitalism in the city to support the country's economic development but they cannot be allowed to lead the revolution and should not be allowed to take major role in leading the country, and for counterrevolutionary classes and counterrevolutionary individuals, land and works should be assigned to them as long as they do not rebel/destruct/mesh-up the situation, so that they can live on, and through labor they can reform themselves into New Human. http://cpc.people.com.cn/BIG5/64107/657 ... 45027.html

All in all, all these are clearly lies and doublespeak. But this is what the rulers like in an authoritarian system. If you point to a deer and manage to make everyone agree with it it is actually a horse, it show your power and more importantly the loyalty of those who are willing to agree with you this is a horse. Such sort of loyalty that make the followers willing to bend toward their alternative fact will ensure they will also be loyal when committing other tasks that go against good will.
https://snowinla.medium.com/lies-the-to ... 207c92eedb
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Re: Hong Kong government to change the election law requiring loyalty

Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:19 am

c933103 wrote:
All in all, all these are clearly lies and doublespeak. But this is what the rulers like in an authoritarian system. If you point to a deer and manage to make everyone agree with it it is actually a horse, it show your power and more importantly the loyalty of those who are willing to agree with you this is a horse. Such sort of loyalty that make the followers willing to bend toward their alternative fact will ensure they will also be loyal when committing other tasks that go against good will.
https://snowinla.medium.com/lies-the-to ... 207c92eedb


That link definitely shows the problem 100% :).

And yes, I certainly know what "Pointing a deer as a horse" means :).

Ultimately, dictatorship only works if the dictator is actually competent. Xi knows his stuff, but that Curried Lamb? Not so much. Those under her? Half of the time they tried to act loyal but can't even lie correctly. I tend to compare HK govt to both neighboring Macau and of course the semi-dictatorship known as Singapore. At a minimum you certainly don't have the "loyal trash" that govern those two places compare to HK.

Oh well, just sad what HK had become. As the city where I am born it will always have a place in my heart.
 
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SAS A340
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Re: Hong Kong government to change the election law requiring loyalty

Sun Mar 14, 2021 12:12 am

Hong Kong is lost.... Taiwan has to be alert.
It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
 
KlimaBXsst
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Re: Hong Kong government to change the election law requiring loyalty

Mon Mar 15, 2021 5:11 pm

SAS A340 wrote:
Hong Kong is lost.... Taiwan has to be alert.


The Corona-Covid hysteria muzzle was created to silence the mass frustration over a year ago now.

It was a very well orchestrated domestic maneuver of dictatorial red (as in non-free) colonial control.

Taiwan must be concerned. Maybe the leaders of the US government can refine their focus, but I have zero faith and confidence in the US government at the present.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
johns624
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Re: Hong Kong government to change the election law requiring loyalty

Mon Mar 15, 2021 6:42 pm

KlimaBXsst wrote:
SAS A340 wrote:
Hong Kong is lost.... Taiwan has to be alert.


The Corona-Covid hysteria muzzle was created to silence the mass frustration over a year ago now.

It was a very well orchestrated domestic maneuver of dictatorial red (as in non-free) colonial control.

Taiwan must be concerned. Maybe the leaders of the US government can refine their focus, but I have zero faith and confidence in the US government at the present.
Why is it a US-only problem? I hear many here say the US is too powerful and sticks its nose where it shouldn't. Maybe it's time for other countries to get involved. They have just as much, if not more trade with China, as the US in per capita. The Australians have been very vocal, but beyond that, it's been very quiet. The EU keeps talking about wanting to be a world leader, and an equal to the US, now's their chance. I'm not holding my breath...
 
Mortyman
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Re: Hong Kong government to change the election law requiring loyalty

Mon Mar 15, 2021 10:40 pm

johns624 wrote:
KlimaBXsst wrote:
SAS A340 wrote:
Hong Kong is lost.... Taiwan has to be alert.


The Corona-Covid hysteria muzzle was created to silence the mass frustration over a year ago now.

It was a very well orchestrated domestic maneuver of dictatorial red (as in non-free) colonial control.

Taiwan must be concerned. Maybe the leaders of the US government can refine their focus, but I have zero faith and confidence in the US government at the present.
Why is it a US-only problem? I hear many here say the US is too powerful and sticks its nose where it shouldn't. Maybe it's time for other countries to get involved. They have just as much, if not more trade with China, as the US in per capita. The Australians have been very vocal, but beyond that, it's been very quiet. The EU keeps talking about wanting to be a world leader, and an equal to the US, now's their chance. I'm not holding my breath...



Fact of the matter is that there is not much to do, unless we want to invade China and go up against a billion Chinese ...


The EU has also made clear what their view is on China's behaviour:

EU threatens China with 'additional steps' over Hong Kong electoral reform

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/eu-threaten ... ral-reform

Hong Kong’s ‘alarming political deterioration’ criticised in scathing EU annual report

https://www.msn.com/en-xl/news/other/ho ... r-BB1ewFay
 
johns624
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Re: Hong Kong government to change the election law requiring loyalty

Mon Mar 15, 2021 11:18 pm

Mortyman wrote:
johns624 wrote:
KlimaBXsst wrote:

The Corona-Covid hysteria muzzle was created to silence the mass frustration over a year ago now.

It was a very well orchestrated domestic maneuver of dictatorial red (as in non-free) colonial control.

Taiwan must be concerned. Maybe the leaders of the US government can refine their focus, but I have zero faith and confidence in the US government at the present.
Why is it a US-only problem? I hear many here say the US is too powerful and sticks its nose where it shouldn't. Maybe it's time for other countries to get involved. They have just as much, if not more trade with China, as the US in per capita. The Australians have been very vocal, but beyond that, it's been very quiet. The EU keeps talking about wanting to be a world leader, and an equal to the US, now's their chance. I'm not holding my breath...



Fact of the matter is that there is not much to do, unless we want to invade China and go up against a billion Chinese ...


The EU has also made clear what their view is on China's behaviour:

EU threatens China with 'additional steps' over Hong Kong electoral reform

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/eu-threaten ... ral-reform

Hong Kong’s ‘alarming political deterioration’ criticised in scathing EU annual report

https://www.msn.com/en-xl/news/other/ho ... r-BB1ewFay
Yet, they rewrote their report on Covid-19 when the PRC got an advance copy and said that they didn't like the tone. That's telling them! The EU is afraid of Russia because they need their gas, they're afraid of the PRC because they need their consumer goods, so they just roll over and play dead. Maybe you could learn something from the Aussies...Pride and reassurance.
 
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c933103
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Re: Hong Kong government to change the election law requiring loyalty

Tue Mar 16, 2021 12:05 am

johns624 wrote:
KlimaBXsst wrote:
SAS A340 wrote:
Hong Kong is lost.... Taiwan has to be alert.


The Corona-Covid hysteria muzzle was created to silence the mass frustration over a year ago now.

It was a very well orchestrated domestic maneuver of dictatorial red (as in non-free) colonial control.

Taiwan must be concerned. Maybe the leaders of the US government can refine their focus, but I have zero faith and confidence in the US government at the present.
Why is it a US-only problem? I hear many here say the US is too powerful and sticks its nose where it shouldn't. Maybe it's time for other countries to get involved. They have just as much, if not more trade with China, as the US in per capita. The Australians have been very vocal, but beyond that, it's been very quiet. The EU keeps talking about wanting to be a world leader, and an equal to the US, now's their chance. I'm not holding my breath...

QUAD was created exactly for that, but US is still required to play a central role here.
China is a big country and is developing powerful economy and military, that countries like Australia or even Japan if left alone would be difficult to compete against.
EU the main continental area is even further away from China's coast than Pacific if you look at the sea route. While EU can also reach China over land, the amount of countries in-between especially with Iran or Russia being mandatory passing point make it effectively impossible for EU to extend their influence over land to the China this way.
There are still some EU countries that hold territories in the Indo-Pacific area close to China's expanding sphere of influence, but how much those EU countries will pay attention in defending them will depends on value position of each individual countries.
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate 求同存異 よく見て・よく聞いて・よく考える
Fitting foreign event into local context for lessons will only be able to tell local values instead of foreign ones
You're now at your youngest moment in your remaining life
 
johns624
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Re: Hong Kong government to change the election law requiring loyalty

Tue Mar 16, 2021 12:30 am

My point is that much of the EU doesn't even try. France is the only country that regularly has a warship anyplace in the area. Russia can kill people in European countries and they send a "please don't do it again" note, which works until the Russians do it again. Then, it just gets embarrassing because there's no backbone. If their cargo ships can make it to China on a regular basis, their navy should be able to, also. Yeah, I know a lot have convenience flags, but we know who the owners are.
 
Mortyman
Posts: 5949
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:26 pm

Re: Hong Kong government to change the election law requiring loyalty

Tue Mar 16, 2021 11:23 am

johns624 wrote:
My point is that much of the EU doesn't even try. France is the only country that regularly has a warship anyplace in the area. Russia can kill people in European countries and they send a "please don't do it again" note, which works until the Russians do it again. Then, it just gets embarrassing because there's no backbone. If their cargo ships can make it to China on a regular basis, their navy should be able to, also. Yeah, I know a lot have convenience flags, but we know who the owners are.


First of all I am no fan of the EU and I hope that Norway never become a member.

The question still remains. What do you want the EU and the US to do ? The US, Australia, New Zealand has warships and aircraft in the area and so does several of the ASEAN members, but China keeps on doing their stuff. Building illegal islands and pressuring both Taiwan, Hong Kong and the rest of the area. The US pressence does not seem to deter them. So what is the point ? Again, unless the world wants to go head on against China, meaning war, it's just a dance around the pond. IF it is decided to go head on against China, then I am sure that the EU and several other countries will join the US. Personally I think helping Hong Kong and Taiwan is far more important than staying in Afghanistan for instance.

But this showing of force that the US is doing in the area has no real effect other than comforting the countries in the area to some extent. However it does not solve the problem I think as it is now unless you are prepared to go to actual war.


So again, what do you think should be done ?
 
Mortyman
Posts: 5949
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Re: Hong Kong government to change the election law requiring loyalty

Tue Mar 16, 2021 6:12 pm

johns624 wrote:
My point is that much of the EU doesn't even try. France is the only country that regularly has a warship anyplace in the area. Russia can kill people in European countries and they send a "please don't do it again" note, which works until the Russians do it again. Then, it just gets embarrassing because there's no backbone. If their cargo ships can make it to China on a regular basis, their navy should be able to, also. Yeah, I know a lot have convenience flags, but we know who the owners are.



I am assuming you mean the south Pacific.


France has warships in the South Pacific because of French Polynesia and New Caledonia.
 
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c933103
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Re: Hong Kong government to change the election law requiring loyalty

Thu Mar 18, 2021 4:02 pm

https://www.thestandnews.com/politics/% ... %E5%BA%A6/


According to Pro-Chinese-Government politician, Chinese government decided to change the election system in Hong Kong because they realized that, accordingbto election from 2019, apoliticians in Hong Kong can actually win election just by showing support to the "Five Demand", which they deemed unacceptable, hence they decided to change the election system, and they discovered that, if those politicians gathered majority amount of seats in the legislature, the legislature can actually reject government order and require the government listen to demand from the legislature, hence they written out the National Security law, in order to outlaw such behavior
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate 求同存異 よく見て・よく聞いて・よく考える
Fitting foreign event into local context for lessons will only be able to tell local values instead of foreign ones
You're now at your youngest moment in your remaining life

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