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ArchGuy1
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10 Years Since Fukushima Earthquake and Nuclear Disaster

Fri Mar 12, 2021 3:30 am

Thursday marked the 10 year anniversary of the Fukushima Earthquake, which led to a tsunami and a meltdown at the Fukushima Nuclear Power Plant. A remembrance ceremony was held with the Emperor in attendance. Very historic event in the history of Japan.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reu ... SKBN2B301A
 
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casinterest
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Re: 10 Years Since Fukushima Earthquake and Nuclear Disaster

Fri Mar 12, 2021 4:19 am

The power of nature is still amazing to behold.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XvFFfgXwnw
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
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Aaron747
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Re: 10 Years Since Fukushima Earthquake and Nuclear Disaster

Fri Mar 12, 2021 5:39 am

Unbelievable day. For those that haven't seen them, some of the videos of the shaking at Sendai Airport and Narita Airport are still mind-blowing. Keep in mind Narita was 230 km from the epicenter.

Sendai Airport - the full brunt of the M9 with nearly 2 minutes of L waves after the initial jolt, you can see the building start to steady itself via its oscillation dampeners before the longer waves arrive. A few minutes later the ocean comes ashore and floods the airport.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mk68bZ701s0

Narita

Terminal 1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icMHzFTwCYM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzkyT2cT3-o

Delta Lounge, I believe

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAXAtg9m2bE
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
M564038
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Re: 10 Years Since Fukushima Earthquake and Nuclear Disaster

Fri Mar 12, 2021 8:03 pm

Which nuclear disaster?
The media got everyone up in a frenzy about how there was going to be one, and it never came.
The earthquake and Tsunami was terrible, and then nuclear showed us why it is the safest form of power production.
 
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casinterest
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Re: 10 Years Since Fukushima Earthquake and Nuclear Disaster

Fri Mar 12, 2021 9:32 pm

M564038 wrote:
Which nuclear disaster?
The media got everyone up in a frenzy about how there was going to be one, and it never came.
The earthquake and Tsunami was terrible, and then nuclear showed us why it is the safest form of power production.


Are you trolling or serious?

https://apnews.com/article/world-news-j ... d3ec300c57
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
johns624
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Re: 10 Years Since Fukushima Earthquake and Nuclear Disaster

Fri Mar 12, 2021 10:21 pm

ArchGuy1 wrote:
Thursday marked the 10 year anniversary of the Fukushima Earthquake, which led to a tsunami and a meltdown at the Fukushima Nuclear Power Plant. A remembrance ceremony was held with the Emperor in attendance. Very historic event in the history of Japan.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reu ... SKBN2B301A
Where were you when it happened and what do you remember about it? Was it generally known at the time and what did the people on the street think of it? Do you think the site should be turned into a museum?
 
M564038
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Re: 10 Years Since Fukushima Earthquake and Nuclear Disaster

Fri Mar 12, 2021 11:03 pm

I am very serious.

18, 500 people died from that earthquake and the following Tsunami.
Yet people are talking as if there was some kind of nuclear disaster.

Disaster? A Nuclear powerplant was overrun by an earthquake and a tsunami, causing a meltdown that led to the permanent closure of that plant.
It didn't cause one single death, and yet people think its worth mention it in combination with the actual disaster that killed 18,500 people!

As late as today, I read a newspaper that had twisted that into" 18,500 people died in the nuclear disaster".
Insane.

We desperately need nuclear power. This misinformation makes people doubt it, when in reality it was a showcase of the safety of nuclear!


casinterest wrote:
M564038 wrote:
Which nuclear disaster?
The media got everyone up in a frenzy about how there was going to be one, and it never came.
The earthquake and Tsunami was terrible, and then nuclear showed us why it is the safest form of power production.


Are you trolling or serious?

https://apnews.com/article/world-news-j ... d3ec300c57
 
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casinterest
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Re: 10 Years Since Fukushima Earthquake and Nuclear Disaster

Sat Mar 13, 2021 12:00 am

M564038 wrote:
I am very serious.

18, 500 people died from that earthquake and the following Tsunami.
Yet people are talking as if there was some kind of nuclear disaster.

Disaster? A Nuclear powerplant was overrun by an earthquake and a tsunami, causing a meltdown that led to the permanent closure of that plant.
It didn't cause one single death, and yet people think its worth mention it in combination with the actual disaster that killed 18,500 people!

As late as today, I read a newspaper that had twisted that into" 18,500 people died in the nuclear disaster".
Insane.

We desperately need nuclear power. This misinformation makes people doubt it, when in reality it was a showcase of the safety of nuclear!


casinterest wrote:
M564038 wrote:
Which nuclear disaster?
The media got everyone up in a frenzy about how there was going to be one, and it never came.
The earthquake and Tsunami was terrible, and then nuclear showed us why it is the safest form of power production.


Are you trolling or serious?

https://apnews.com/article/world-news-j ... d3ec300c57


The plant had to be decommissioned, after they had a meltdown in 3 of the reactors. That is a serious issue.

They also still have regular earthquakes in the area, and are looking at a 30-50 year cleanup issue.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
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Aaron747
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Re: 10 Years Since Fukushima Earthquake and Nuclear Disaster

Sat Mar 13, 2021 12:13 am

casinterest wrote:
M564038 wrote:
I am very serious.

18, 500 people died from that earthquake and the following Tsunami.
Yet people are talking as if there was some kind of nuclear disaster.

Disaster? A Nuclear powerplant was overrun by an earthquake and a tsunami, causing a meltdown that led to the permanent closure of that plant.
It didn't cause one single death, and yet people think its worth mention it in combination with the actual disaster that killed 18,500 people!

As late as today, I read a newspaper that had twisted that into" 18,500 people died in the nuclear disaster".
Insane.

We desperately need nuclear power. This misinformation makes people doubt it, when in reality it was a showcase of the safety of nuclear!


casinterest wrote:


The plant had to be decommissioned, after they had a meltdown in 3 of the reactors. That is a serious issue.

They also still have regular earthquakes in the area, and are looking at a 30-50 year cleanup issue.


Yes, but technically that in of itself is not a 'nuclear disaster' - not the likes of Chernobyl or Three Mile Island in terms of human/technical error. The damage done to the nuclear power industry was enormous because Japanese engineers decided in the 1960s that an area with a history of megaquake every 70-120 years did not need a larger tsunami seawall.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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casinterest
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Re: 10 Years Since Fukushima Earthquake and Nuclear Disaster

Sat Mar 13, 2021 12:24 am

Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
M564038 wrote:
I am very serious.

18, 500 people died from that earthquake and the following Tsunami.
Yet people are talking as if there was some kind of nuclear disaster.

Disaster? A Nuclear powerplant was overrun by an earthquake and a tsunami, causing a meltdown that led to the permanent closure of that plant.
It didn't cause one single death, and yet people think its worth mention it in combination with the actual disaster that killed 18,500 people!

As late as today, I read a newspaper that had twisted that into" 18,500 people died in the nuclear disaster".
Insane.

We desperately need nuclear power. This misinformation makes people doubt it, when in reality it was a showcase of the safety of nuclear!




The plant had to be decommissioned, after they had a meltdown in 3 of the reactors. That is a serious issue.

They also still have regular earthquakes in the area, and are looking at a 30-50 year cleanup issue.


Yes, but technically that in of itself is not a 'nuclear disaster' - not the likes of Chernobyl or Three Mile Island in terms of human/technical error. The damage done to the nuclear power industry was enormous because Japanese engineers decided in the 1960s that an area with a history of megaquake every 70-120 years did not need a larger tsunami seawall.



It is still a disaster. It was the likes of 3 mile and much worse in terms of damage. It was not a Chernobyl,. but it came close.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
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Aaron747
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Re: 10 Years Since Fukushima Earthquake and Nuclear Disaster

Sat Mar 13, 2021 1:06 am

casinterest wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:

The plant had to be decommissioned, after they had a meltdown in 3 of the reactors. That is a serious issue.

They also still have regular earthquakes in the area, and are looking at a 30-50 year cleanup issue.


Yes, but technically that in of itself is not a 'nuclear disaster' - not the likes of Chernobyl or Three Mile Island in terms of human/technical error. The damage done to the nuclear power industry was enormous because Japanese engineers decided in the 1960s that an area with a history of megaquake every 70-120 years did not need a larger tsunami seawall.



It is still a disaster. It was the likes of 3 mile and much worse in terms of damage. It was not a Chernobyl,. but it came close.


Yeah, a natural disaster, not a nuclear one, per se. There just happened to be a powerplant there on the coast - that was improperly protected from its inception.
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c933103
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Re: 10 Years Since Fukushima Earthquake and Nuclear Disaster

Sat Mar 13, 2021 3:01 am

johns624 wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
Thursday marked the 10 year anniversary of the Fukushima Earthquake, which led to a tsunami and a meltdown at the Fukushima Nuclear Power Plant. A remembrance ceremony was held with the Emperor in attendance. Very historic event in the history of Japan.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reu ... SKBN2B301A
Where were you when it happened and what do you remember about it? Was it generally known at the time and what did the people on the street think of it? Do you think the site should be turned into a museum?

The Japanese government response is a public relation disaster in itself I would say
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate 求同存異 よく見て・よく聞いて・よく考える
Fitting foreign event into local context for lessons will only be able to tell local values instead of foreign ones
You're now at your youngest moment in your remaining life
 
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c933103
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Re: 10 Years Since Fukushima Earthquake and Nuclear Disaster

Sat Mar 13, 2021 3:34 am

casinterest wrote:

The plant had to be decommissioned, after they had a meltdown in 3 of the reactors. That is a serious issue.

They also still have regular earthquakes in the area, and are looking at a 30-50 year cleanup issue.

There are indeed more earthquake in the area nowadays but there're nothing exceptional about having earthquakes in Japan
30-50 years is the time expected to dismantle the reactor site.
As for cleanup, most area outside the power plant have finished clean up, except a selected area with higher contamination, which I am not sure whether they have plan to do decontamination work over such area. Even the town right next to the power plant is now preparing for residents to move back in.
Aaron747 wrote:
Yes, but technically that in of itself is not a 'nuclear disaster' - not the likes of Chernobyl or Three Mile Island in terms of human/technical error. The damage done to the nuclear power industry was enormous because Japanese engineers decided in the 1960s that an area with a history of megaquake every 70-120 years did not need a larger tsunami seawall.

No one say only human/technical-error caused dosaster can be named nuclear disaster.
And while the area have relatively common large earthquake, archeology reveal last major tsunami at this scale was about 800 years ago, and historical document recording such tsunami hitting over 30 meters height was being taken as fantasy as people couldn't believe there were such a big earthquake, because the recent one is observed. There were already some studies about such risk before the earthquake happens but those didn't get enough attention.
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate 求同存異 よく見て・よく聞いて・よく考える
Fitting foreign event into local context for lessons will only be able to tell local values instead of foreign ones
You're now at your youngest moment in your remaining life
 
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Aaron747
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Re: 10 Years Since Fukushima Earthquake and Nuclear Disaster

Sat Mar 13, 2021 3:45 am

c933103 wrote:
casinterest wrote:

The plant had to be decommissioned, after they had a meltdown in 3 of the reactors. That is a serious issue.

They also still have regular earthquakes in the area, and are looking at a 30-50 year cleanup issue.

There are indeed more earthquake in the area nowadays but there're nothing exceptional about having earthquakes in Japan
30-50 years is the time expected to dismantle the reactor site.
As for cleanup, most area outside the power plant have finished clean up, except a selected area with higher contamination, which I am not sure whether they have plan to do decontamination work over such area. Even the town right next to the power plant is now preparing for residents to move back in.
Aaron747 wrote:
Yes, but technically that in of itself is not a 'nuclear disaster' - not the likes of Chernobyl or Three Mile Island in terms of human/technical error. The damage done to the nuclear power industry was enormous because Japanese engineers decided in the 1960s that an area with a history of megaquake every 70-120 years did not need a larger tsunami seawall.

No one say only human/technical-error caused dosaster can be named nuclear disaster.
And while the area have relatively common large earthquake, archeology reveal last major tsunami at this scale was about 800 years ago, and historical document recording such tsunami hitting over 30 meters height was being taken as fantasy as people couldn't believe there were such a big earthquake, because the recent one is observed. There were already some studies about such risk before the earthquake happens but those didn't get enough attention.


My comment was in the context of most public distrust of nuclear power arising from authorities/engineers seeming inability to manage it without serious incident - though Switzerland, Germany and Taiwan have done an excellent job compared to other countries, most of whom have multiple incidents. Natural disaster never entered the nuclear equation until Fukushima.
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Re: 10 Years Since Fukushima Earthquake and Nuclear Disaster

Sat Mar 13, 2021 4:36 am

Aaron747 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
casinterest wrote:

The plant had to be decommissioned, after they had a meltdown in 3 of the reactors. That is a serious issue.

They also still have regular earthquakes in the area, and are looking at a 30-50 year cleanup issue.

There are indeed more earthquake in the area nowadays but there're nothing exceptional about having earthquakes in Japan
30-50 years is the time expected to dismantle the reactor site.
As for cleanup, most area outside the power plant have finished clean up, except a selected area with higher contamination, which I am not sure whether they have plan to do decontamination work over such area. Even the town right next to the power plant is now preparing for residents to move back in.
Aaron747 wrote:
Yes, but technically that in of itself is not a 'nuclear disaster' - not the likes of Chernobyl or Three Mile Island in terms of human/technical error. The damage done to the nuclear power industry was enormous because Japanese engineers decided in the 1960s that an area with a history of megaquake every 70-120 years did not need a larger tsunami seawall.

No one say only human/technical-error caused dosaster can be named nuclear disaster.
And while the area have relatively common large earthquake, archeology reveal last major tsunami at this scale was about 800 years ago, and historical document recording such tsunami hitting over 30 meters height was being taken as fantasy as people couldn't believe there were such a big earthquake, because the recent one is observed. There were already some studies about such risk before the earthquake happens but those didn't get enough attention.


My comment was in the context of most public distrust of nuclear power arising from authorities/engineers seeming inability to manage it without serious incident - though Switzerland, Germany and Taiwan have done an excellent job compared to other countries, most of whom have multiple incidents. Natural disaster never entered the nuclear equation until Fukushima.

It is not possible to argue this way, given that the Onagawa nuclear power plant located in the next prefecture to Fukushima Daiichi, survived despite being closer to epicenter and experienced same level of tsunami. The number of safety measures adopted by the Onagawa power plant in anticipation of a possible tsunami before the event have allowed it to be shut down safely and even being used as evacuation facility for nearby residents. The problem here is those who design, construct, and operate Fukushima Daiichi didn't. And when extending this to the world, how many people can be certain those who operate the nuclear power plant nearest to them will be as careful and concern as much about safety as those are at Onagawa instead of like those at Fukushima Daiichi?
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate 求同存異 よく見て・よく聞いて・よく考える
Fitting foreign event into local context for lessons will only be able to tell local values instead of foreign ones
You're now at your youngest moment in your remaining life
 
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Aaron747
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Re: 10 Years Since Fukushima Earthquake and Nuclear Disaster

Sat Mar 13, 2021 5:36 am

c933103 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
There are indeed more earthquake in the area nowadays but there're nothing exceptional about having earthquakes in Japan
30-50 years is the time expected to dismantle the reactor site.
As for cleanup, most area outside the power plant have finished clean up, except a selected area with higher contamination, which I am not sure whether they have plan to do decontamination work over such area. Even the town right next to the power plant is now preparing for residents to move back in.

No one say only human/technical-error caused dosaster can be named nuclear disaster.
And while the area have relatively common large earthquake, archeology reveal last major tsunami at this scale was about 800 years ago, and historical document recording such tsunami hitting over 30 meters height was being taken as fantasy as people couldn't believe there were such a big earthquake, because the recent one is observed. There were already some studies about such risk before the earthquake happens but those didn't get enough attention.


My comment was in the context of most public distrust of nuclear power arising from authorities/engineers seeming inability to manage it without serious incident - though Switzerland, Germany and Taiwan have done an excellent job compared to other countries, most of whom have multiple incidents. Natural disaster never entered the nuclear equation until Fukushima.

It is not possible to argue this way, given that the Onagawa nuclear power plant located in the next prefecture to Fukushima Daiichi, survived despite being closer to epicenter and experienced same level of tsunami. The number of safety measures adopted by the Onagawa power plant in anticipation of a possible tsunami before the event have allowed it to be shut down safely and even being used as evacuation facility for nearby residents. The problem here is those who design, construct, and operate Fukushima Daiichi didn't. And when extending this to the world, how many people can be certain those who operate the nuclear power plant nearest to them will be as careful and concern as much about safety as those are at Onagawa instead of like those at Fukushima Daiichi?


As one Japanese politician *very bad* at PR said: nobody would have known about TEPCO's problems without the earthquake
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frmrCapCadet
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Re: 10 Years Since Fukushima Earthquake and Nuclear Disaster

Sat Mar 13, 2021 1:41 pm

While current estimates are LOL, only several hundred $billions of damages and cleanup, my estimate, in current $$$ is a trillion. Note: either figure is a disaster, more specifically a nuclear disaster.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
WIederling
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Re: 10 Years Since Fukushima Earthquake and Nuclear Disaster

Sat Mar 13, 2021 2:43 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
M564038 wrote:
I am very serious.

18, 500 people died from that earthquake and the following Tsunami.
Yet people are talking as if there was some kind of nuclear disaster.

Disaster? A Nuclear powerplant was overrun by an earthquake and a tsunami, causing a meltdown that led to the permanent closure of that plant.
It didn't cause one single death, and yet people think its worth mention it in combination with the actual disaster that killed 18,500 people!

As late as today, I read a newspaper that had twisted that into" 18,500 people died in the nuclear disaster".
Insane.

We desperately need nuclear power. This misinformation makes people doubt it, when in reality it was a showcase of the safety of nuclear!




The plant had to be decommissioned, after they had a meltdown in 3 of the reactors. That is a serious issue.

They also still have regular earthquakes in the area, and are looking at a 30-50 year cleanup issue.


Yes, but technically that in of itself is not a 'nuclear disaster' - not the likes of Chernobyl or Three Mile Island in terms of human/technical error. The damage done to the nuclear power industry was enormous because Japanese engineers decided in the 1960s that an area with a history of megaquake every 70-120 years did not need a larger tsunami seawall.


bit of splitting hairs to declare it a non nuclear disaster because it was cause was not intrinsic to the nuclear tech.
The amount of environmental release of radioactive materials was comparable to Chernobyl.

But don't mention the amount of radioactives released in atmospheric nuclear tests :-)

on the other hand : the technical issues exposed were a massive downer. GE really borked it.
Murphy is an optimist
 
slider
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Re: 10 Years Since Fukushima Earthquake and Nuclear Disaster

Sat Mar 13, 2021 4:34 pm

The power of nature is awesome and humbling. Those videos are terrifying, watching the water come in in both that town and the airport.

This is one of those events that leaves a permanent societal scar for many, and I hope recovery has gone as well as can be expected under the circumstances. I also hope the lessons learned as it pertains to building and maintaining nuclear plants (old and new) are incorporated into new tech nuclear, especially in earthquake zones.
 
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Aesma
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Re: 10 Years Since Fukushima Earthquake and Nuclear Disaster

Sat Mar 13, 2021 6:11 pm

I agree it's difficult to call it a "nuclear disaster" if nobody dies, when that expression suggests thousands or even millions of dead. Including in Japan where this is an entire pop culture genre for obvious reasons.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Re: 10 Years Since Fukushima Earthquake and Nuclear Disaster

Sat Mar 13, 2021 6:46 pm

The entire issue of "nuclear disaster" evolves from the fact and failure of designs that do not plan for complete containment and protection against radioactive release. So most current nuclear anything, from bombs to power plants, are potential nuclear disasters.

Fukushima was and is a nuclear disaster, just not one that it per se directly caused itself. But in truth all nuclear disasters, from EBR-1 to 3 Mile Island to Chernobyl to atmospheric nuclear bomb tests to the Nyonoksa incident, are "caused" by "outside" elements. None were intended or planned, someone did something wrong, some small thing failed, something unplanned happened. THAT is the inherent problem with most all nuclear things today, they aren't designed to be basically totally fail safe (bombs are designed to "safe" until used as designed).

There are only a few nuclear systems currently in existence that are truly failsafe, where if left alone, if damaged, they radiation won't get worse, there won't be a runaway meltdown. These are how all nuclear systems must be designed and built, no exception (well I don't think they'll ever design bombs like that). And fortunately power designs incorporating that ideology are proliferating nowadays. I have some hope.

Tugg
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Aaron747
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Re: 10 Years Since Fukushima Earthquake and Nuclear Disaster

Sat Mar 13, 2021 9:45 pm

slider wrote:
The power of nature is awesome and humbling. Those videos are terrifying, watching the water come in in both that town and the airport.

This is one of those events that leaves a permanent societal scar for many, and I hope recovery has gone as well as can be expected under the circumstances. I also hope the lessons learned as it pertains to building and maintaining nuclear plants (old and new) are incorporated into new tech nuclear, especially in earthquake zones.


The range of human reaction is also interesting, especially in the Sendai airport video. When they get evacuated outside, it seems pretty calm until a guy in a suit hurriedly says everyone needs to get back in the building. As the tsunami arrives, people are exclaiming the amount of water is unimaginable and someone couldn’t help but chuckle at how the equipment is being swept away. Strange vantage watching all that unfold from five or six stories up.
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c933103
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Re: 10 Years Since Fukushima Earthquake and Nuclear Disaster

Sat Mar 13, 2021 10:45 pm

Aesma wrote:
I agree it's difficult to call it a "nuclear disaster" if nobody dies, when that expression suggests thousands or even millions of dead. Including in Japan where this is an entire pop culture genre for obvious reasons.

I think the problem here is how the term is perceived among the mass, not all nuclear diaster must be nuclear bomb just like not every aircraft hijacking is 911, but that's what people will associate with when they hear the term since those are the most well knowm examples.

Tugger wrote:
The entire issue of "nuclear disaster" evolves from the fact and failure of designs that do not plan for complete containment and protection against radioactive release. So most current nuclear anything, from bombs to power plants, are potential nuclear disasters.

I don't think a complete containment and protection was possible. It's like saying aircraft should be decided to never fell from sky, which just isn't possible.

Fukushima was and is a nuclear disaster, just not one that it per se directly caused itself. But in truth all nuclear disasters, from EBR-1 to 3 Mile Island to Chernobyl to atmospheric nuclear bomb tests to the Nyonoksa incident, are "caused" by "outside" elements. None were intended or planned, someone did something wrong, some small thing failed, something unplanned happened. THAT is the inherent problem with most all nuclear things today, they aren't designed to be basically totally fail safe (bombs are designed to "safe" until used as designed).

Chernobyl was not caused by outside environment. It was caused by operation which got the reactor pass safety limit.
There are only a few nuclear systems currently in existence that are truly failsafe, where if left alone, if damaged, they radiation won't get worse, there won't be a runaway meltdown. These are how all nuclear systems must be designed and built, no exception (well I don't think they'll ever design bombs like that). And fortunately power designs incorporating that ideology are proliferating nowadays. I have some hope.

Tugg

There are already some nuclear power plant design with passive safety in mind, aka they'll shut down by itself safely if left unattended, but those Generation IV design are still mostly on paper or experimental with no plan to actually build them, given most countries around the world doesn't want to build new nuclear power plants.
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate 求同存異 よく見て・よく聞いて・よく考える
Fitting foreign event into local context for lessons will only be able to tell local values instead of foreign ones
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Sokes
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Re: 10 Years Since Fukushima Earthquake and Nuclear Disaster

Sun Mar 14, 2021 4:02 am

"In 2019, just over 4% of global primary energy came from nuclear power."
https://ourworldindata.org/nuclear-energy

While I agree that the risks are greatly exaggerated, I don't see it as a way forward. Beside cost, nuclear waste speaks against it.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
WIederling
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Re: 10 Years Since Fukushima Earthquake and Nuclear Disaster

Sun Mar 14, 2021 9:47 am

Sokes wrote:
"In 2019, just over 4% of global primary energy came from nuclear power."
https://ourworldindata.org/nuclear-energy

While I agree that the risks are greatly exaggerated, I don't see it as a way forward. Beside cost, nuclear waste speaks against it.


Research into converting nuclear waste has been carefully sabotaged.
( same for using wastes as reactor fuel addition : MOX )
Enough ideas around.

The whole Anti Atom movement needs the festering wastes for their existence.

I am still flabbergasted that here in Germany the overall Tsunami damage and death are completely
ignored and the myopic picture just shows Fukushima. nothing left, nothing right.

Headless Hysteric Chicken.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Revelation
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Re: 10 Years Since Fukushima Earthquake and Nuclear Disaster

Sun Mar 14, 2021 5:19 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Yes, but technically that in of itself is not a 'nuclear disaster' - not the likes of Chernobyl or Three Mile Island in terms of human/technical error. The damage done to the nuclear power industry was enormous because Japanese engineers decided in the 1960s that an area with a history of megaquake every 70-120 years did not need a larger tsunami seawall.

It is still a disaster. It was the likes of 3 mile and much worse in terms of damage. It was not a Chernobyl,. but it came close.

Yeah, a natural disaster, not a nuclear one, per se. There just happened to be a powerplant there on the coast - that was improperly protected from its inception.

Right, a power plant that generates radioactive byproducts that were released when it exploded, causing an exclusion zone and a clean up effort that will be around for decades.

2013 map of the exclusion zone:

Image
Ref: https://safecast.org/2013/12/current-fu ... -zone-map/

Latest data I could find on the exclusion zone:

By 2017 the exclusion zone had declined to 143 square miles (371 square km). Despite this seemingly good news, few people have returned so far, most of them elderly.

Ref: https://www.britannica.com/story/nuclea ... sion-zones

Try drawing a similar 143 sq mi / 371 sq km exclusion zone on your closest nuclear power plant and ask yourself how life would change if that area was uninhabitable for the past decade or so with no idea of when it could be inhabited again.

Given some of the posts here, it would all be drawn over the sea.

Speaking of the sea:

Michio Aoyama, a scientist at Fukushima University's Institute of Environmental Radioactivity, estimated that the meltdowns and explosions released 18,000 terabecquerel (TBq) of caesium 137, mostly into the Pacific Ocean. He also estimated that two years after the accident, the stricken plant was still releasing 30 gigabecquerel (30 GBq, or approximately 0.8 curie) of caesium 137 and the same amount of strontium 90 into the ocean daily.[1] In September 2013, it was reported that the level of strontium-90 detected in a drainage ditch located near a water storage tank from which around 300 tons of water was found to have leaked was believed to have exceeded the threshold set by the government.[2] Efforts to control the flow of contaminated water have included trying to isolate the plant behind a 30-meter-deep, 1.5-kilometer-long "ice wall" of frozen soil, which has had limited success.[3]

Decommissioning the plant is estimated to cost tens of billions of dollars and last 30–40 years.[4][5] While radioactive particles were found to have contaminated rice harvested near Fukushima City in the autumn of 2011,[6] fears of contamination in the soil have receded as government measures to protect the food supply have appeared to be successful. Studies have shown that soil contamination in most areas of Fukushima was not serious.[7] In 2018, Dr. Aoyama of Fukushima University released a report saying that contaminated water was still flowing into the Pacific Ocean, but at a greatly diminished rate of 2 GBq per day.[8][note 1]

Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fukushima ... er_cleanup
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WIederling
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Re: 10 Years Since Fukushima Earthquake and Nuclear Disaster

Sun Mar 14, 2021 6:33 pm

A question/request:
Carbon-14 concentrations:
there is a lot of graphics around with data from <WWII to ~1980.
Mostly to showcase the irradiation from athmospheric bomb tests.
Image
sourced from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon-14

has anybody seen data for the last 40+ years ( 2021 and back.) ?
Murphy is an optimist
 
M564038
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Re: 10 Years Since Fukushima Earthquake and Nuclear Disaster

Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:32 pm

-18,500 people died in the actual natural disaster.
-0 people died from what happened to fukushima.

Even mentioning them as two kind of similar events on a scale of disaster is a gross disrespect towards all those people that died.
The exclusion zone was and is grossly overdone, and barely enter the picture here.

But Fukushima DID kill 1000s of people.
It killed 1000s of people through hurting nuclear as a power source.
More than 100,000 people die in the western world alone EVERY YEAR from fossil fuel fallout.
The press and environmental organizations making up a frenzy of doom about Fukushima has killed real people.
1000s of them.

If there was a Fukushima disaster, THAT is the disaster.

Now go look up what would happen if an earthquake burst the Three gorges dam, and then tell me nuclear is the risky power source!
Last edited by M564038 on Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
kalvado
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Re: 10 Years Since Fukushima Earthquake and Nuclear Disaster

Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:34 pm

WIederling wrote:
A question/request:
Carbon-14 concentrations:
there is a lot of graphics around with data from <WWII to ~1980.
Mostly to showcase the irradiation from athmospheric bomb tests.
sourced from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon-14

has anybody seen data for the last 40+ years ( 2021 and back.) ?


Sightly newer data:
https://www.irsn.fr/EN/Research/publica ... _EN_02.jpg
In cities, C14 can be well below the natural level, for obvious reasons.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: 10 Years Since Fukushima Earthquake and Nuclear Disaster

Mon Mar 15, 2021 12:13 am

Revelation wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
It is still a disaster. It was the likes of 3 mile and much worse in terms of damage. It was not a Chernobyl,. but it came close.

Yeah, a natural disaster, not a nuclear one, per se. There just happened to be a powerplant there on the coast - that was improperly protected from its inception.

Right, a power plant that generates radioactive byproducts that were released when it exploded, causing an exclusion zone and a clean up effort that will be around for decades.

2013 map of the exclusion zone:

Image
Ref: https://safecast.org/2013/12/current-fu ... -zone-map/

Latest data I could find on the exclusion zone:

By 2017 the exclusion zone had declined to 143 square miles (371 square km). Despite this seemingly good news, few people have returned so far, most of them elderly.

Ref: https://www.britannica.com/story/nuclea ... sion-zones

Try drawing a similar 143 sq mi / 371 sq km exclusion zone on your closest nuclear power plant and ask yourself how life would change if that area was uninhabitable for the past decade or so with no idea of when it could be inhabited again.

Given some of the posts here, it would all be drawn over the sea.

Speaking of the sea:

Michio Aoyama, a scientist at Fukushima University's Institute of Environmental Radioactivity, estimated that the meltdowns and explosions released 18,000 terabecquerel (TBq) of caesium 137, mostly into the Pacific Ocean. He also estimated that two years after the accident, the stricken plant was still releasing 30 gigabecquerel (30 GBq, or approximately 0.8 curie) of caesium 137 and the same amount of strontium 90 into the ocean daily.[1] In September 2013, it was reported that the level of strontium-90 detected in a drainage ditch located near a water storage tank from which around 300 tons of water was found to have leaked was believed to have exceeded the threshold set by the government.[2] Efforts to control the flow of contaminated water have included trying to isolate the plant behind a 30-meter-deep, 1.5-kilometer-long "ice wall" of frozen soil, which has had limited success.[3]

Decommissioning the plant is estimated to cost tens of billions of dollars and last 30–40 years.[4][5] While radioactive particles were found to have contaminated rice harvested near Fukushima City in the autumn of 2011,[6] fears of contamination in the soil have receded as government measures to protect the food supply have appeared to be successful. Studies have shown that soil contamination in most areas of Fukushima was not serious.[7] In 2018, Dr. Aoyama of Fukushima University released a report saying that contaminated water was still flowing into the Pacific Ocean, but at a greatly diminished rate of 2 GBq per day.[8][note 1]

Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fukushima ... er_cleanup


It will be moot soon anyway. The nearest plant is being decommissioned in 2024.
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Re: 10 Years Since Fukushima Earthquake and Nuclear Disaster

Mon Mar 15, 2021 3:34 am

Revelation wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
It is still a disaster. It was the likes of 3 mile and much worse in terms of damage. It was not a Chernobyl,. but it came close.

Yeah, a natural disaster, not a nuclear one, per se. There just happened to be a powerplant there on the coast - that was improperly protected from its inception.

Right, a power plant that generates radioactive byproducts that were released when it exploded, causing an exclusion zone and a clean up effort that will be around for decades.

2013 map of the exclusion zone:

Image
Ref: https://safecast.org/2013/12/current-fu ... -zone-map/

Latest data I could find on the exclusion zone:

By 2017 the exclusion zone had declined to 143 square miles (371 square km). Despite this seemingly good news, few people have returned so far, most of them elderly.

Ref: https://www.britannica.com/story/nuclea ... sion-zones

Try drawing a similar 143 sq mi / 371 sq km exclusion zone on your closest nuclear power plant and ask yourself how life would change if that area was uninhabitable for the past decade or so with no idea of when it could be inhabited again.

Given some of the posts here, it would all be drawn over the sea.

Speaking of the sea:

Michio Aoyama, a scientist at Fukushima University's Institute of Environmental Radioactivity, estimated that the meltdowns and explosions released 18,000 terabecquerel (TBq) of caesium 137, mostly into the Pacific Ocean. He also estimated that two years after the accident, the stricken plant was still releasing 30 gigabecquerel (30 GBq, or approximately 0.8 curie) of caesium 137 and the same amount of strontium 90 into the ocean daily.[1] In September 2013, it was reported that the level of strontium-90 detected in a drainage ditch located near a water storage tank from which around 300 tons of water was found to have leaked was believed to have exceeded the threshold set by the government.[2] Efforts to control the flow of contaminated water have included trying to isolate the plant behind a 30-meter-deep, 1.5-kilometer-long "ice wall" of frozen soil, which has had limited success.[3]

Decommissioning the plant is estimated to cost tens of billions of dollars and last 30–40 years.[4][5] While radioactive particles were found to have contaminated rice harvested near Fukushima City in the autumn of 2011,[6] fears of contamination in the soil have receded as government measures to protect the food supply have appeared to be successful. Studies have shown that soil contamination in most areas of Fukushima was not serious.[7] In 2018, Dr. Aoyama of Fukushima University released a report saying that contaminated water was still flowing into the Pacific Ocean, but at a greatly diminished rate of 2 GBq per day.[8][note 1]

Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fukushima ... er_cleanup

According to my understanding, clean up effort for most affected area, except zone deemed difficult to return to, have already been completed in 2017.
And this is how they're cleaning up
http://josen.env.go.jp/about/method_nec ... _area.html
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Re: 10 Years Since Fukushima Earthquake and Nuclear Disaster

Mon Mar 15, 2021 2:43 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
It will be moot soon anyway. The nearest plant is being decommissioned in 2024.

That does nothing to take the radiation away from the uninhabitable ~131 square mile zone.

Find your closest nuclear power plant. Draw a ~131 sq mi area (11 x 11 miles square) over land adjacent to the plant and mark it uninhabitable for the foreseeable future. Ask yourself what that does to your local economy.

Mine's in Seabrook, NH. It'd take out a major tourism destination and some fishing too, along with some industry and large amounts of housing. Major interstate would need to be rerouted.

c933103 wrote:
According to my understanding, clean up effort for most affected area, except zone deemed difficult to return to, have already been completed in 2017.

Right, after a decade's work they've dealt with the easier areas and now they're left with the most difficult areas.

Why should it be excepted?

The whole point is that nuclear power plants create radioactive elements as a side product of their operation, and if these get released people die and land becomes uninhabitable.

Find your closest nuclear power plant. Draw a ~131 sq mi area (11 x 11 miles square) over land adjacent to the plant and mark it uninhabitable for the foreseeable future. Ask yourself what that does to your local economy.
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Re: 10 Years Since Fukushima Earthquake and Nuclear Disaster

Mon Mar 15, 2021 6:37 pm

Right, but that only applies to nuclear facilities built in areas that are less than suitable. Japan obviously does not have much of a choice where to build their facilities given their geography, but the vast majority of plants are not built in tsunami zones.

It seems the real issue here is the fact that the plant was not adequately shielded from the environment, as opposed to what the anti-nuclear people try to hype up which is the environment was not adequately shielded from the plant.
 
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Re: 10 Years Since Fukushima Earthquake and Nuclear Disaster

Mon Mar 15, 2021 8:28 pm

meecrob wrote:
Right, but that only applies to nuclear facilities built in areas that are less than suitable. Japan obviously does not have much of a choice where to build their facilities given their geography, but the vast majority of plants are not built in tsunami zones.

It seems the real issue here is the fact that the plant was not adequately shielded from the environment, as opposed to what the anti-nuclear people try to hype up which is the environment was not adequately shielded from the plant.

While earthquake and tsunami triggered the chain of events, the root causes of Fukushima - not unlike many other disasters - are engineering and administrative idiocy.
Biggest failure , of course, is a politically motivated response to Chernobyl - "unlike graphite reactors, BWR is intrinsically safe!" and failure to learn from mistakes others made. Covid response in US is another perfect example of such situation. Remember "We are so much better than China!"?..
SOP superseding the reality of life is the second issue. Sometimes, evacuation is not the safest option!
 
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Re: 10 Years Since Fukushima Earthquake and Nuclear Disaster

Mon Mar 15, 2021 9:33 pm

M564038 wrote:
-18,500 people died in the actual natural disaster.
-0 people died from what happened to fukushima.


Unfortunately that's not so simple.

You can use the natural disaster numbers as definitive, a huge deathcount, but fukushima's not over. Effects there are for a very different scale of time.

The core needs to be cooled, contaminated water managed, the ground frozen (did I read somewhere 30m deepth?), for a very long time.

It shouldn't reach the same number of direct death, but consequences for the environment on a very large scale are not negligible, it's very much a disaster by any standards.
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Re: 10 Years Since Fukushima Earthquake and Nuclear Disaster

Mon Mar 15, 2021 11:58 pm

Revelation wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
It will be moot soon anyway. The nearest plant is being decommissioned in 2024.

That does nothing to take the radiation away from the uninhabitable ~131 square mile zone.

Find your closest nuclear power plant. Draw a ~131 sq mi area (11 x 11 miles square) over land adjacent to the plant and mark it uninhabitable for the foreseeable future. Ask yourself what that does to your local economy.

Mine's in Seabrook, NH. It'd take out a major tourism destination and some fishing too, along with some industry and large amounts of housing. Major interstate would need to be rerouted.

c933103 wrote:
According to my understanding, clean up effort for most affected area, except zone deemed difficult to return to, have already been completed in 2017.

Right, after a decade's work they've dealt with the easier areas and now they're left with the most difficult areas.

Why should it be excepted?

The whole point is that nuclear power plants create radioactive elements as a side product of their operation, and if these get released people die and land becomes uninhabitable.

Find your closest nuclear power plant. Draw a ~131 sq mi area (11 x 11 miles square) over land adjacent to the plant and mark it uninhabitable for the foreseeable future. Ask yourself what that does to your local economy.

I think it is a selective thing, like from what I remember they have reopened some roads and railway within the zone already after decontaminating them, but neighboring lands are still closed for radiation
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Re: 10 Years Since Fukushima Earthquake and Nuclear Disaster

Tue Mar 16, 2021 9:13 am

meecrob wrote:
Right, but that only applies to nuclear facilities built in areas that are less than suitable. Japan obviously does not have much of a choice where to build their facilities given their geography, but the vast majority of plants are not built in tsunami zones.

It seems the real issue here is the fact that the plant was not adequately shielded from the environment, as opposed to what the anti-nuclear people try to hype up which is the environment was not adequately shielded from the plant.


The GE reactor design has massive shortfalls in scope of a benign handling of a reactor scram.
control rods inserted from below needing active actuation
( vs dropping them from above via deenergizing a magnetic coupling.)

Aggravated by some wrong decisions on how to place vital backup infrastructure.
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Re: 10 Years Since Fukushima Earthquake and Nuclear Disaster

Tue Mar 16, 2021 9:16 am

Grizzly410 wrote:
M564038 wrote:
-18,500 people died in the actual natural disaster.
-0 people died from what happened to fukushima.


Unfortunately that's not so simple.

You can use the natural disaster numbers as definitive, a huge deathcount, but fukushima's not over. Effects there are for a very different scale of time.

The core needs to be cooled, contaminated water managed, the ground frozen (did I read somewhere 30m deepth?), for a very long time.

It shouldn't reach the same number of direct death, but consequences for the environment on a very large scale are not negligible, it's very much a disaster by any standards.


Have therre ever been numbers published on reconstruction cost for the direct Tsunami damage? compare to what the bill for "fixing" the reactor site will be?
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Re: 10 Years Since Fukushima Earthquake and Nuclear Disaster

Tue Mar 16, 2021 9:21 am

kalvado wrote:
WIederling wrote:
has anybody seen data for the last 40+ years ( 2021 and back.) ?


Sightly newer data:
https://www.irsn.fr/EN/Research/publica ... _EN_02.jpg
In cities, C14 can be well below the natural level, for obvious reasons.


Chernobyl seems to have had negligible imprint on the numbers.
I'd like to see some for 2010 .. 2020 interval.

It seems to be rather difficult to discern the overlaying effect of releasing Carbon-14 free fossil fuel combustion products.
( found some works on the topic .... )
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Aesma
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Re: 10 Years Since Fukushima Earthquake and Nuclear Disaster

Tue Mar 16, 2021 9:58 am

Sokes wrote:
"In 2019, just over 4% of global primary energy came from nuclear power."
https://ourworldindata.org/nuclear-energy

While I agree that the risks are greatly exaggerated, I don't see it as a way forward. Beside cost, nuclear waste speaks against it.


Will nuclear go to 50% ? No. Will solar and wind be bigger ? Yes.

Some nuclear plants in every country, at suitable locations, would be great to go with that solar and wind, along with some storage solutions (pumped hydro, batteries, etc.). And other sources where available (geothermal, hydro, etc.).

When there is too much production even for storing (say, lots of wind, sun shining, full dams), you can use the excess electricity to make hydrogen, and either use that as fuel, or combine it with CO2 to produce carbon free kerosene.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
WIederling
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Re: 10 Years Since Fukushima Earthquake and Nuclear Disaster

Tue Mar 16, 2021 10:14 am

Aesma wrote:
Sokes wrote:
"In 2019, just over 4% of global primary energy came from nuclear power."
https://ourworldindata.org/nuclear-energy

While I agree that the risks are greatly exaggerated, I don't see it as a way forward. Beside cost, nuclear waste speaks against it.


Will nuclear go to 50% ? No. Will solar and wind be bigger ? Yes.

Some nuclear plants in every country, at suitable locations, would be great to go with that solar and wind, along with some storage solutions (pumped hydro, batteries, etc.). And other sources where available (geothermal, hydro, etc.).

When there is too much production even for storing (say, lots of wind, sun shining, full dams), you can use the excess electricity to make hydrogen, and either use that as fuel, or combine it with CO2 to produce carbon free kerosene.


Green Hydrogen is a bit of a mirage. electricity to hydrogen is unpleasantly lossy. hydro storage is much more efficient.
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Aesma
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Re: 10 Years Since Fukushima Earthquake and Nuclear Disaster

Tue Mar 16, 2021 10:36 am

Yes but it doesn't matter if the alternative is shutting down windmills. And since there is a real issue with flying long range with electricity, I'm offering a win win solution.

Efficiency is of course a must and has to be an objective in many applications, but something matters even more : eliminating carbon emissions.
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kalvado
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Re: 10 Years Since Fukushima Earthquake and Nuclear Disaster

Tue Mar 16, 2021 12:58 pm

WIederling wrote:
kalvado wrote:
WIederling wrote:
has anybody seen data for the last 40+ years ( 2021 and back.) ?


Sightly newer data:
https://www.irsn.fr/EN/Research/publica ... _EN_02.jpg
In cities, C14 can be well below the natural level, for obvious reasons.


Chernobyl seems to have had negligible imprint on the numbers.
I'd like to see some for 2010 .. 2020 interval.

It seems to be rather difficult to discern the overlaying effect of releasing Carbon-14 free fossil fuel combustion products.
( found some works on the topic .... )

Last time I checked WHO data, thyroid cancer was the only statistically significant public health problem related to CHernobyl. This is pretty remarkable, as the linear no-threshold model basically predicted Europe dying out due to cancer.
Even those working on-site - other than first responders, who jumped into the middle of it - were only somewhat affected by heart issues, which can be attributed to high stress.

And no, radiocarbon is detectably lower in city centers, and increased CO2 in air does cause dilution of naturally generated one, with concentration predicted to drop below pre-industrial level in 2030.
Figure from Rakowski, Andrzej Z., et al. "Radiocarbon concentration in urban area." Geochronometria: Journal on Methods & Applications of Absolute Chronology 24 (2005).
Image
 
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Re: 10 Years Since Fukushima Earthquake and Nuclear Disaster

Tue Mar 16, 2021 2:13 pm

meecrob wrote:
Right, but that only applies to nuclear facilities built in areas that are less than suitable. Japan obviously does not have much of a choice where to build their facilities given their geography, but the vast majority of plants are not built in tsunami zones.

It seems the real issue here is the fact that the plant was not adequately shielded from the environment, as opposed to what the anti-nuclear people try to hype up which is the environment was not adequately shielded from the plant.

The anti-nuclear people try to hype up the unavoidable truth: nuclear energy creates radioactive by-products that have harmful effects for centuries if not millennia.

No matter how you try to obfuscate things, there are so many different ways to fuck up handling radioactive materials that you need to store for centuries if not millennia.

And once you fuck something up like this, there's no way to un-fuck it for centuries if not millennia.

The problems could be from human or natural sources or a combination of both, but the core issue (ahem) is that nuclear presents safety challenges that other forms of energy do not.

I like this current spin, let's classify this as a natural disaster rather than a man-made one.

Ok, if there was no nuclear power plant in the tsunami zone would we even be talking about Fukushima right now?
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kalvado
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Re: 10 Years Since Fukushima Earthquake and Nuclear Disaster

Tue Mar 16, 2021 2:32 pm

Revelation wrote:
meecrob wrote:
Right, but that only applies to nuclear facilities built in areas that are less than suitable. Japan obviously does not have much of a choice where to build their facilities given their geography, but the vast majority of plants are not built in tsunami zones.

It seems the real issue here is the fact that the plant was not adequately shielded from the environment, as opposed to what the anti-nuclear people try to hype up which is the environment was not adequately shielded from the plant.

The anti-nuclear people try to hype up the unavoidable truth: nuclear energy creates radioactive by-products that have harmful effects for centuries if not millennia.

No matter how you try to obfuscate things, there are so many different ways to fuck up handling radioactive materials that you need to store for centuries if not millennia.

And once you fuck something up like this, there's no way to un-fuck it for centuries if not millennia.

The problems could be from human or natural sources or a combination of both, but the core issue (ahem) is that nuclear presents safety challenges that other forms of energy do not.

I like this current spin, let's classify this as a natural disaster rather than a man-made one.

Ok, if there was no nuclear power plant in the tsunami zone would we even be talking about Fukushima right now?

Honestly speaking, whatever energy source - or industry in general - we consider, there is a real possibility of long term consequences.
Hydrocarbons cause climate change, hydro changes rivers ecosystems, carbon fibers from wind turbine blade may end up in lungs over millennia...
"leave no trace" is a nice idea, but probably more difficult than it sounds.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: 10 Years Since Fukushima Earthquake and Nuclear Disaster

Tue Mar 16, 2021 2:41 pm

kalvado wrote:
Revelation wrote:
meecrob wrote:
Right, but that only applies to nuclear facilities built in areas that are less than suitable. Japan obviously does not have much of a choice where to build their facilities given their geography, but the vast majority of plants are not built in tsunami zones.

It seems the real issue here is the fact that the plant was not adequately shielded from the environment, as opposed to what the anti-nuclear people try to hype up which is the environment was not adequately shielded from the plant.

The anti-nuclear people try to hype up the unavoidable truth: nuclear energy creates radioactive by-products that have harmful effects for centuries if not millennia.

No matter how you try to obfuscate things, there are so many different ways to fuck up handling radioactive materials that you need to store for centuries if not millennia.

And once you fuck something up like this, there's no way to un-fuck it for centuries if not millennia.

The problems could be from human or natural sources or a combination of both, but the core issue (ahem) is that nuclear presents safety challenges that other forms of energy do not.

I like this current spin, let's classify this as a natural disaster rather than a man-made one.

Ok, if there was no nuclear power plant in the tsunami zone would we even be talking about Fukushima right now?


Honestly speaking, whatever energy source - or industry in general - we consider, there is a real possibility of long term consequences.
Hydrocarbons cause climate change, hydro changes rivers ecosystems, carbon fibers from wind turbine blade may end up in lungs over millennia...
"leave no trace" is a nice idea, but probably more difficult than it sounds.


True enough, but mitigation is always possible given enough investment - it's basically our economic system that makes these approaches fallible. Japan should be a world leader in geothermal power generation - the entire archipelago is lit. Alas, it isn't, because in the 80s and 90s some scheming hot spring resort owners popularized the idea that overutilization of geothermal plants would 'dry up' hot springs and exhaust the heat within the islands.
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Re: 10 Years Since Fukushima Earthquake and Nuclear Disaster

Tue Mar 16, 2021 2:46 pm

kalvado wrote:
Honestly speaking, whatever energy source - or industry in general - we consider, there is a real possibility of long term consequences.
Hydrocarbons cause climate change, hydro changes rivers ecosystems, carbon fibers from wind turbine blade may end up in lungs over millennia...
"leave no trace" is a nice idea, but probably more difficult than it sounds.

If you want to look at it that way, the sun will go supernova in four or five billion years so in the end we will leave no trace.

In the mean time, again, the key difference is one form of energy can take dozens of square miles of earth and render it useless for centuries if not millennia based on one otherwise normal event, such as a human error or an earthquake.

It's odd to see disposal of nuclear waste equated to disposal of wind turbine blades, the disposal challenges are very different.

Truly a false equivalence in my book.
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kalvado
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Re: 10 Years Since Fukushima Earthquake and Nuclear Disaster

Tue Mar 16, 2021 3:35 pm

Revelation wrote:
kalvado wrote:
Honestly speaking, whatever energy source - or industry in general - we consider, there is a real possibility of long term consequences.
Hydrocarbons cause climate change, hydro changes rivers ecosystems, carbon fibers from wind turbine blade may end up in lungs over millennia...
"leave no trace" is a nice idea, but probably more difficult than it sounds.

If you want to look at it that way, the sun will go supernova in four or five billion years so in the end we will leave no trace.

In the mean time, again, the key difference is one form of energy can take dozens of square miles of earth and render it useless for centuries if not millennia based on one otherwise normal event, such as a human error or an earthquake.

It's odd to see disposal of nuclear waste equated to disposal of wind turbine blades, the disposal challenges are very different.

Truly a false equivalence in my book.

maybe yes, maybe no.
Nuclear wastes are treated with a lot of respect; possibly more than they actually deserve, just out of abundance of caution. Chernobyl proved that residual radiation doses are not as bad as believed by safety people. We just prefer to play it safe until we understand things better.
Carbon fiber is treated with no respect at all. It may become next asbestos after some time.
There were lots of situations where lack of respect to possible long term effects caused - and still causes - problems. Polychlorinated biphenyls in Hudson river is the one I would mention since it is basically next door thing for me. There are tons and tons of similar situations all over the globe.

THis is, IMHO, not unlike GMO fear of unknown new technology vs very relaxed attitude towards traditional cultivars... New is scary, old is OK.
 
kalvado
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Re: 10 Years Since Fukushima Earthquake and Nuclear Disaster

Tue Mar 16, 2021 3:54 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
kalvado wrote:
Revelation wrote:
The anti-nuclear people try to hype up the unavoidable truth: nuclear energy creates radioactive by-products that have harmful effects for centuries if not millennia.

No matter how you try to obfuscate things, there are so many different ways to fuck up handling radioactive materials that you need to store for centuries if not millennia.

And once you fuck something up like this, there's no way to un-fuck it for centuries if not millennia.

The problems could be from human or natural sources or a combination of both, but the core issue (ahem) is that nuclear presents safety challenges that other forms of energy do not.

I like this current spin, let's classify this as a natural disaster rather than a man-made one.

Ok, if there was no nuclear power plant in the tsunami zone would we even be talking about Fukushima right now?


Honestly speaking, whatever energy source - or industry in general - we consider, there is a real possibility of long term consequences.
Hydrocarbons cause climate change, hydro changes rivers ecosystems, carbon fibers from wind turbine blade may end up in lungs over millennia...
"leave no trace" is a nice idea, but probably more difficult than it sounds.


True enough, but mitigation is always possible given enough investment - it's basically our economic system that makes these approaches fallible. Japan should be a world leader in geothermal power generation - the entire archipelago is lit. Alas, it isn't, because in the 80s and 90s some scheming hot spring resort owners popularized the idea that overutilization of geothermal plants would 'dry up' hot springs and exhaust the heat within the islands.

Again, total bravery. Are there any side effect one may consider?
Depletion of infinite resource is always a concern (and rarely an addressed concern). Look up word "deplete" in this text to see an example: https://www.discoversaratoga.org/sarato ... r/history/
Thermal equilibrium deep inside takes long to establish. I am not sure what would happen with stability of soil once that is disturbed, but gambling with that in a seismic zone may be a bad idea.
Those are not professional concerns, those are just the most obvious questions to ask. Brushing them off... Good luck with such approach!
 
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Revelation
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Re: 10 Years Since Fukushima Earthquake and Nuclear Disaster

Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:58 pm

kalvado wrote:
maybe yes, maybe no.
Nuclear wastes are treated with a lot of respect; possibly more than they actually deserve, just out of abundance of caution. Chernobyl proved that residual radiation doses are not as bad as believed by safety people. We just prefer to play it safe until we understand things better.
Carbon fiber is treated with no respect at all. It may become next asbestos after some time.
There were lots of situations where lack of respect to possible long term effects caused - and still causes - problems. Polychlorinated biphenyls in Hudson river is the one I would mention since it is basically next door thing for me. There are tons and tons of similar situations all over the globe.

THis is, IMHO, not unlike GMO fear of unknown new technology vs very relaxed attitude towards traditional cultivars... New is scary, old is OK.

You are acting as if pollution from radioactive waste is a solved problem (it isn't) and pollution from carbon fiber is an unsolvable problem (it isn't).
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own

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