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MaverickM11
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Arizona GOP says the quiet part with a bullhorn: ‘Everybody shouldn’t be voting’

Fri Mar 12, 2021 3:30 am

Not surprising. But insane nonetheless.

Republican Arizona lawmaker: ‘Everybody shouldn’t be voting’
https://ktar.com/story/4151027/republic ... be-voting/

"GOP state Rep. John Kavanagh of Fountain Hills said the two parties have a “fundamental difference” in how they approach voting rights, according to CNN."

“Not everybody wants to vote, and if somebody is uninterested in voting, that probably means that they’re totally uninformed on the issues,” he said. “Quantity is important, but we have to look at the quality of votes, as well.”

Republican contempt for democracy and the Constitution continues...
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c933103
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Re: Arizona GOP says the quiet part with a bullhorn: ‘Everybody shouldn’t be voting’

Fri Mar 12, 2021 3:50 am

There's a reason why most countries around the world didn't adopt mandatory voting like Australia
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Newark727
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Re: Arizona GOP says the quiet part with a bullhorn: ‘Everybody shouldn’t be voting’

Fri Mar 12, 2021 4:01 am

Kavanagh couched his antidemocratic views in sadly familiar rhetoric: "I just don't want the idiots to vote, that's all!" But how do you make that happen? Who is making the decision of who has put in sufficient effort, found the right documents, and learned enough to vote? What are that person's priorities and biases?

"Literacy tests" were the bedrock of Jim Crow. Sure, you may not think of yourself as racist, but what mechanism, exactly, stops a racist from being the person (or people) in charge of deciding which votes are "quality?" Or even leave race out of it - what if Mr. Kavanagh thinks the "quality" votes come from people who own property, or people who have a college degree, or people who know the second verse of the Star-Spangled Banner? The more of a barrier you put up to vote, the more you make "voter" a privileged class. And the privileged classes will be the same people that they've always been. Populism my ass. You vote GOP, you are ultimately voting for oligarchy.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Arizona GOP says the quiet part with a bullhorn: ‘Everybody shouldn’t be voting’

Fri Mar 12, 2021 4:05 am

Anyone just dumbfounded at how the party that considers itself to be the bedrock of "freedom" is working so hard to destroy democracy through terrorist attacks and attacks on voting rights?
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
MaverickM11
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Re: Arizona GOP says the quiet part with a bullhorn: ‘Everybody shouldn’t be voting’

Fri Mar 12, 2021 4:14 am

Newark727 wrote:
Kavanagh couched his antidemocratic views in sadly familiar rhetoric: "I just don't want the idiots to vote, that's all!" But how do you make that happen? Who is making the decision of who has put in sufficient effort, found the right documents, and learned enough to vote? What are that person's priorities and biases?

Pretty sure he needs the idiots to vote; otherwise there'd be no GOP
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Newark727
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Re: Arizona GOP says the quiet part with a bullhorn: ‘Everybody shouldn’t be voting’

Fri Mar 12, 2021 4:22 am

MaverickM11 wrote:
Pretty sure he needs the idiots to vote; otherwise there'd be no GOP


Ironic but incidental to my point, which is that, ultimately, it shouldn't even matter who you think the idiots are.

Plan for the worst case - assume whoever is in charge of picking what votes get to count is the most malevolent jackass you can think of, who is diametrically opposed to your every political aspiration. Do you still want to give them that power?
 
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casinterest
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Re: Arizona GOP says the quiet part with a bullhorn: ‘Everybody shouldn’t be voting’

Fri Mar 12, 2021 4:57 am

Newark727 wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
Pretty sure he needs the idiots to vote; otherwise there'd be no GOP


Ironic but incidental to my point, which is that, ultimately, it shouldn't even matter who you think the idiots are.

Plan for the worst case - assume whoever is in charge of picking what votes get to count is the most malevolent jackass you can think of, who is diametrically opposed to your every political aspiration. Do you still want to give them that power?



Here is the issue, the GOP depends on red meat for money. They have entered a point, where they are in the water chumming for sharks. They are ignoring the fact that they are bleeding leadership, guidance , stability to fill the coffers.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
MaverickM11
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Re: Arizona GOP says the quiet part with a bullhorn: ‘Everybody shouldn’t be voting’

Fri Mar 12, 2021 5:40 am

Newark727 wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
Pretty sure he needs the idiots to vote; otherwise there'd be no GOP


Ironic but incidental to my point, which is that, ultimately, it shouldn't even matter who you think the idiots are.

Plan for the worst case - assume whoever is in charge of picking what votes get to count is the most malevolent jackass you can think of, who is diametrically opposed to your every political aspiration. Do you still want to give them that power?

Of course. It's not even a stretch to suggest the GOP would gladly go back to literacy tests, poll taxes, all the Jim Crow tactics, and/or simply extend voting to property holders only.
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Re: Arizona GOP says the quiet part with a bullhorn: ‘Everybody shouldn’t be voting’

Fri Mar 12, 2021 7:37 am

MaverickM11 wrote:
“Quantity is important, but we have to look at the quality of votes, as well.”


He does have a point. Look how many people voted for Trump! :duck:

c933103 wrote:
There's a reason why most countries around the world didn't adopt mandatory voting like Australia


An outsider looking at the political situation in America vs Australia might wonder what your point is.

MaverickM11 wrote:
Of course. It's not even a stretch to suggest the GOP would gladly go back to literacy tests, poll taxes, all the Jim Crow tactics, and/or simply extend voting to property holders only.


They'd get there in stages - deny people of colour the vote first (they keep trying); then, with women under the control of men, there's no need for them to vote because they'd just be voting the same as their menfolk; then only church-going land-owners get to vote. Because. Republican nirvana.
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Aesma
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Re: Arizona GOP says the quiet part with a bullhorn: ‘Everybody shouldn’t be voting’

Fri Mar 12, 2021 11:14 am

What are the GOP issues these days ? Dr Seuss being "cancelled", something about Mr Potato head, and women in the military ? Yeah, not knowing about that will definitely change people's lives and thus votes...
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cpd
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Re: Arizona GOP says the quiet part with a bullhorn: ‘Everybody shouldn’t be voting’

Fri Mar 12, 2021 12:09 pm

c933103 wrote:
There's a reason why most countries around the world didn't adopt mandatory voting like Australia


Do explain further in great detail the basis of this comment and your own experience/knowledge to back up the comment. I’d be very interested to know.
 
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c933103
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Re: Arizona GOP says the quiet part with a bullhorn: ‘Everybody shouldn’t be voting’

Fri Mar 12, 2021 12:32 pm

cpd wrote:
c933103 wrote:
There's a reason why most countries around the world didn't adopt mandatory voting like Australia


Do explain further in great detail the basis of this comment and your own experience/knowledge to back up the comment. I’d be very interested to know.

I have heard of some from Australia where one would be fined for not voting, that they don't care about politics and thus simply toss the coin on election day to decide who they're going to vote for, or simply vote whoever their friends recommended. I don't think such votes would really help democracy.
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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Arizona GOP says the quiet part with a bullhorn: ‘Everybody shouldn’t be voting’

Fri Mar 12, 2021 4:19 pm

If you receive money or other valuable consideration from the government, you should forfeit your vote—you have a conflict of interest. That applies to people and companies, zero corporate welfare, zero contributions to politics in any form.

If you don’t pay taxes, don’t own property, don’t run a business, no votes—you have no stake in society other than a payback.
 
Newark727
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Re: Arizona GOP says the quiet part with a bullhorn: ‘Everybody shouldn’t be voting’

Fri Mar 12, 2021 4:30 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
If you receive money or other valuable consideration from the government, you should forfeit your vote—you have a conflict of interest. That applies to people and companies, zero corporate welfare, zero contributions to politics in any form.

If you don’t pay taxes, don’t own property, don’t run a business, no votes—you have no stake in society other than a payback.


Isn't that pretty much everybody, though? I mean, if you've ever stepped onto a public road, or logged on to the internet, or used electricity from Hoover Dam, you've taken government benefits. And what about tax cuts? They're a government expense for the public benefit too.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: Arizona GOP says the quiet part with a bullhorn: ‘Everybody shouldn’t be voting’

Fri Mar 12, 2021 4:33 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
If you receive money or other valuable consideration from the government, you should forfeit your vote—you have a conflict of interest. That applies to people and companies, zero corporate welfare, zero contributions to politics in any form.

If you don’t pay taxes, don’t own property, don’t run a business, no votes—you have no stake in society other than a payback.


lol. That's got to be the most preposterous thing I've read on A.net for a while... and that's saying something.

Since you derived a lot of your income from the Government, and may even still receive some form of pension from it, I expect you have always abstained from voting?
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Flaps
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Re: Arizona GOP says the quiet part with a bullhorn: ‘Everybody shouldn’t be voting’

Fri Mar 12, 2021 5:03 pm

Depends on how you define "everyone". Illegals should not be voting. Convicted criminals should not be voting while serving their sentences. Dead people should never be voting. Green card holders should not be voting. ALL LEGAL citizens do have the right to vote. Whether they choose to exercise that right or not is up to the individual. Requiring identification that proves eligibility (aka citizenship) is not denying anyone the right to vote.
 
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Re: Arizona GOP says the quiet part with a bullhorn: ‘Everybody shouldn’t be voting’

Fri Mar 12, 2021 5:32 pm

c933103 wrote:
cpd wrote:
c933103 wrote:
There's a reason why most countries around the world didn't adopt mandatory voting like Australia


Do explain further in great detail the basis of this comment and your own experience/knowledge to back up the comment. I’d be very interested to know.

I have heard of some from Australia where one would be fined for not voting, that they don't care about politics and thus simply toss the coin on election day to decide who they're going to vote for, or simply vote whoever their friends recommended. I don't think such votes would really help democracy.


Just to clear things up in Australia you aren't forced to vote for any running candidate if you don't wish to . You're required to get your name crossed off the electoral roll, take a ballot paper and put the ballot into the ballot box. You're more than welcome to void your vote by leaving the ballot blank, draw a picture of an elephant, or add a "none of the above" box. It's called an Informal vote. As far as know there are no laws against it, but even then it can't be traced back an individual.
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phatfarmlines
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Re: Arizona GOP says the quiet part with a bullhorn: ‘Everybody shouldn’t be voting’

Fri Mar 12, 2021 5:47 pm

Flaps wrote:
Depends on how you define "everyone". Illegals should not be voting. Convicted criminals should not be voting while serving their sentences. Dead people should never be voting. Green card holders should not be voting. ALL LEGAL citizens do have the right to vote. Whether they choose to exercise that right or not is up to the individual. Requiring identification that proves eligibility (aka citizenship) is not denying anyone the right to vote.


The only measure I agree with on the voting legislation changes is the requirement of identification (preferably a voter ID which vets citizenship and criminal status) for all voting mediums.

Everything else (removing drop boxes, eliminating absentee voting, eliminating mobile voting, shortening early voting days) is nothing but suppression.

MaverickM11 wrote:
Not surprising. But insane nonetheless.

Republican Arizona lawmaker: ‘Everybody shouldn’t be voting’
https://ktar.com/story/4151027/republic ... be-voting/

"GOP state Rep. John Kavanagh of Fountain Hills said the two parties have a “fundamental difference” in how they approach voting rights, according to CNN."

“Not everybody wants to vote, and if somebody is uninterested in voting, that probably means that they’re totally uninformed on the issues,” he said. “Quantity is important, but we have to look at the quality of votes, as well.”

Republican contempt for democracy and the Constitution continues...


This is the Republican strategy going into 2022. Get used to the rhetoric folks.

Republicans were more subtle about suppression in prior elections, but thanks to the work of Stacy Abrams to air their dirty laundry, it's now become mainstream because they can't hide it as well.
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Arizona GOP says the quiet part with a bullhorn: ‘Everybody shouldn’t be voting’

Fri Mar 12, 2021 6:13 pm

Newark727 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
If you receive money or other valuable consideration from the government, you should forfeit your vote—you have a conflict of interest. That applies to people and companies, zero corporate welfare, zero contributions to politics in any form.

If you don’t pay taxes, don’t own property, don’t run a business, no votes—you have no stake in society other than a payback.


Isn't that pretty much everybody, though? I mean, if you've ever stepped onto a public road, or logged on to the internet, or used electricity from Hoover Dam, you've taken government benefits. And what about tax cuts? They're a government expense for the public benefit too.


Who do you think paid for the Hoover Dam, the roads, etc? you think the government just created money out of thin air just because they are the government? it was the tax payers who paid for all of that, and continue to pay for all of that.

Tax payers pay for EVERYTHING that is built, and not built yet. Those who at the end cover all of the costs. Poor people, those on welfare don't pay for the roads, nor anything yet receive government benefits and still use the roads etc.

A tax cut is not a hand out, is KEEPING part of the money you EARN, with your hard work. Not ever going to be the same. So the premise, the government built it and you must pay, yes, of course, with paying taxes we are paying, a business was created and created wealth out of hard work, and pays for the roads, security etc. A tax cut won't shield the taxpayers from ever paying taxes. They are just keeping a bit more of their own money on their pockets. It promotes, and incentivizes investment and wealth creation.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
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casinterest
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Re: Arizona GOP says the quiet part with a bullhorn: ‘Everybody shouldn’t be voting’

Fri Mar 12, 2021 6:29 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
If you receive money or other valuable consideration from the government, you should forfeit your vote—you have a conflict of interest. That applies to people and companies, zero corporate welfare, zero contributions to politics in any form.

If you don’t pay taxes, don’t own property, don’t run a business, no votes—you have no stake in society other than a payback.



So soldiers aren't allowed to vote anymore? Everyone that buys anything pays taxes.

Where are you that the air is so thin?
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
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casinterest
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Re: Arizona GOP says the quiet part with a bullhorn: ‘Everybody shouldn’t be voting’

Fri Mar 12, 2021 6:35 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Newark727 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
If you receive money or other valuable consideration from the government, you should forfeit your vote—you have a conflict of interest. That applies to people and companies, zero corporate welfare, zero contributions to politics in any form.

If you don’t pay taxes, don’t own property, don’t run a business, no votes—you have no stake in society other than a payback.


Isn't that pretty much everybody, though? I mean, if you've ever stepped onto a public road, or logged on to the internet, or used electricity from Hoover Dam, you've taken government benefits. And what about tax cuts? They're a government expense for the public benefit too.


Who do you think paid for the Hoover Dam, the roads, etc? you think the government just created money out of thin air just because they are the government? it was the tax payers who paid for all of that, and continue to pay for all of that.

Tax payers pay for EVERYTHING that is built, and not built yet. Those who at the end cover all of the costs. Poor people, those on welfare don't pay for the roads, nor anything yet receive government benefits and still use the roads etc.

A tax cut is not a hand out, is KEEPING part of the money you EARN, with your hard work. Not ever going to be the same. So the premise, the government built it and you must pay, yes, of course, with paying taxes we are paying, a business was created and created wealth out of hard work, and pays for the roads, security etc. A tax cut won't shield the taxpayers from ever paying taxes. They are just keeping a bit more of their own money on their pockets. It promotes, and incentivizes investment and wealth creation.



You really have no clue where Money comes from do you? It does come out of thin air. It has value based on how much people will pay for it.
https://constitution.congress.gov/brows ... section-8/

Clause 5
To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

ArtI.S8.C5.1 Coinage Power


The government deficit always comes out of the difference in the balance of funding programs vs income from taxpayers. That debt is then created with interest owed to creditors that buy the debt for interest.

This year, there will be a lot of debt, but the taxable income will not plummet thanks to the taxes that will still be paid. Eventually inflation will kick in as people will look for bigger returns for buying riskier debt.,
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
luckyone
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Re: Arizona GOP says the quiet part with a bullhorn: ‘Everybody shouldn’t be voting’

Fri Mar 12, 2021 6:36 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
If you receive money or other valuable consideration from the government, you should forfeit your vote—you have a conflict of interest. That applies to people and companies, zero corporate welfare, zero contributions to politics in any form.

If you don’t pay taxes, don’t own property, don’t run a business, no votes—you have no stake in society other than a payback.

Like a lot of political ideology that sounds glorious. But even the most bone headed GOP legislature wouldn't try to actually implement this. More of their voting base receives benefits than they would ever admit. And that's aside from the fact that would be illegal.
 
johns624
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Re: Arizona GOP says the quiet part with a bullhorn: ‘Everybody shouldn’t be voting’

Fri Mar 12, 2021 6:38 pm

I guess according to GalaxyFlyer, once you retire and collect Social Security, you aren't allowed to vote anymore.
 
Newark727
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Re: Arizona GOP says the quiet part with a bullhorn: ‘Everybody shouldn’t be voting’

Fri Mar 12, 2021 6:43 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Who do you think paid for the Hoover Dam, the roads, etc? you think the government just created money out of thin air just because they are the government? it was the tax payers who paid for all of that, and continue to pay for all of that.

Tax payers pay for EVERYTHING that is built, and not built yet. Those who at the end cover all of the costs. Poor people, those on welfare don't pay for the roads, nor anything yet receive government benefits and still use the roads etc.

A tax cut is not a hand out, is KEEPING part of the money you EARN, with your hard work. Not ever going to be the same. So the premise, the government built it and you must pay, yes, of course, with paying taxes we are paying, a business was created and created wealth out of hard work, and pays for the roads, security etc. A tax cut won't shield the taxpayers from ever paying taxes. They are just keeping a bit more of their own money on their pockets. It promotes, and incentivizes investment and wealth creation.


Wasn't even remotely the point I was making... GalaxyFlyer cited "conflicts of interest." That being the case, is there any functional difference between a Medicare recipient voting to increase their benefits, and a taxpayer voting to reduce their taxes, from a conflict of interest perspective? I don't feel as though there is.
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Arizona GOP says the quiet part with a bullhorn: ‘Everybody shouldn’t be voting’

Fri Mar 12, 2021 7:40 pm

Newark727 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Who do you think paid for the Hoover Dam, the roads, etc? you think the government just created money out of thin air just because they are the government? it was the tax payers who paid for all of that, and continue to pay for all of that.

Tax payers pay for EVERYTHING that is built, and not built yet. Those who at the end cover all of the costs. Poor people, those on welfare don't pay for the roads, nor anything yet receive government benefits and still use the roads etc.

A tax cut is not a hand out, is KEEPING part of the money you EARN, with your hard work. Not ever going to be the same. So the premise, the government built it and you must pay, yes, of course, with paying taxes we are paying, a business was created and created wealth out of hard work, and pays for the roads, security etc. A tax cut won't shield the taxpayers from ever paying taxes. They are just keeping a bit more of their own money on their pockets. It promotes, and incentivizes investment and wealth creation.


Wasn't even remotely the point I was making... GalaxyFlyer cited "conflicts of interest." That being the case, is there any functional difference between a Medicare recipient voting to increase their benefits, and a taxpayer voting to reduce their taxes, from a conflict of interest perspective? I don't feel as though there is.


Well, the US constitution says, that people come first, then the government. Is not government then people. The government is on the way of my business and my pocket by collecting taxes. So its not a favor to me the taxpayer, business owner to actually have a reduction in the amount of money the government already takes from me.

Remember, if I don't produce money, if I don't create wealth, then there is no money to actually take away from me.

I chose to do what I want with my money, the government with the threat of putting me in jail tells me they need to take away from me what I have worked and earned. I could instead give away to charity and to local organizations who for certain would do much more good to my community than what bureaucrats and congress in Washington say they will do with my money.

In any case, if I vote to have less government (taxes) in my life and my business, it shouldn't be seen as a conflict of interest. It is merely voting for what really government was created for in this country.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
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seb146
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Re: Arizona GOP says the quiet part with a bullhorn: ‘Everybody shouldn’t be voting’

Fri Mar 12, 2021 7:43 pm

Republicans are working hard to cancel democracy. They whine about "cancel culture" when food packaging is changed but not when they take away people's rights.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
FGITD
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Re: Arizona GOP says the quiet part with a bullhorn: ‘Everybody shouldn’t be voting’

Fri Mar 12, 2021 8:53 pm

johns624 wrote:
I guess according to GalaxyFlyer, once you retire and collect Social Security, you aren't allowed to vote anymore.


I’m all for it, but we’re thinking too small. How about on a national level, if your state takes in more federal money than it contributes, your reps and senators don’t get a vote. We can leave the governing to the adults
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Arizona GOP says the quiet part with a bullhorn: ‘Everybody shouldn’t be voting’

Fri Mar 12, 2021 9:07 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Newark727 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Who do you think paid for the Hoover Dam, the roads, etc? you think the government just created money out of thin air just because they are the government? it was the tax payers who paid for all of that, and continue to pay for all of that.

Tax payers pay for EVERYTHING that is built, and not built yet. Those who at the end cover all of the costs. Poor people, those on welfare don't pay for the roads, nor anything yet receive government benefits and still use the roads etc.

A tax cut is not a hand out, is KEEPING part of the money you EARN, with your hard work. Not ever going to be the same. So the premise, the government built it and you must pay, yes, of course, with paying taxes we are paying, a business was created and created wealth out of hard work, and pays for the roads, security etc. A tax cut won't shield the taxpayers from ever paying taxes. They are just keeping a bit more of their own money on their pockets. It promotes, and incentivizes investment and wealth creation.


Wasn't even remotely the point I was making... GalaxyFlyer cited "conflicts of interest." That being the case, is there any functional difference between a Medicare recipient voting to increase their benefits, and a taxpayer voting to reduce their taxes, from a conflict of interest perspective? I don't feel as though there is.


Well, the US constitution says, that people come first, then the government. Is not government then people. The government is on the way of my business and my pocket by collecting taxes. So its not a favor to me the taxpayer, business owner to actually have a reduction in the amount of money the government already takes from me.

Remember, if I don't produce money, if I don't create wealth, then there is no money to actually take away from me.

I chose to do what I want with my money, the government with the threat of putting me in jail tells me they need to take away from me what I have worked and earned. I could instead give away to charity and to local organizations who for certain would do much more good to my community than what bureaucrats and congress in Washington say they will do with my money.

In any case, if I vote to have less government (taxes) in my life and my business, it shouldn't be seen as a conflict of interest. It is merely voting for what really government was created for in this country.


Do you know when the government first massively expanded taxation? WW2. Do you know why? Germany and Japan weren’t defeated via charity.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Arizona GOP says the quiet part with a bullhorn: ‘Everybody shouldn’t be voting’

Fri Mar 12, 2021 9:16 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Newark727 wrote:

Wasn't even remotely the point I was making... GalaxyFlyer cited "conflicts of interest." That being the case, is there any functional difference between a Medicare recipient voting to increase their benefits, and a taxpayer voting to reduce their taxes, from a conflict of interest perspective? I don't feel as though there is.


Well, the US constitution says, that people come first, then the government. Is not government then people. The government is on the way of my business and my pocket by collecting taxes. So its not a favor to me the taxpayer, business owner to actually have a reduction in the amount of money the government already takes from me.

Remember, if I don't produce money, if I don't create wealth, then there is no money to actually take away from me.

I chose to do what I want with my money, the government with the threat of putting me in jail tells me they need to take away from me what I have worked and earned. I could instead give away to charity and to local organizations who for certain would do much more good to my community than what bureaucrats and congress in Washington say they will do with my money.

In any case, if I vote to have less government (taxes) in my life and my business, it shouldn't be seen as a conflict of interest. It is merely voting for what really government was created for in this country.


Do you know when the government first massively expanded taxation? WW2. Do you know why? Germany and Japan weren’t defeated via charity.


Not advocating for the total elimination of government here. Defense was and is I think the most important and main reason to have a federal government. That Woodrow Wilson, FDR and the rest made the federal government massive as it is outside of its original intention, has little to do with government winning WW2. As you can see, after that, the US hasn't won any significant wars, probably because the federal government lost focus on its sole and most important duty.
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Aaron747
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Re: Arizona GOP says the quiet part with a bullhorn: ‘Everybody shouldn’t be voting’

Fri Mar 12, 2021 9:23 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

Well, the US constitution says, that people come first, then the government. Is not government then people. The government is on the way of my business and my pocket by collecting taxes. So its not a favor to me the taxpayer, business owner to actually have a reduction in the amount of money the government already takes from me.

Remember, if I don't produce money, if I don't create wealth, then there is no money to actually take away from me.

I chose to do what I want with my money, the government with the threat of putting me in jail tells me they need to take away from me what I have worked and earned. I could instead give away to charity and to local organizations who for certain would do much more good to my community than what bureaucrats and congress in Washington say they will do with my money.

In any case, if I vote to have less government (taxes) in my life and my business, it shouldn't be seen as a conflict of interest. It is merely voting for what really government was created for in this country.


Do you know when the government first massively expanded taxation? WW2. Do you know why? Germany and Japan weren’t defeated via charity.


Not advocating for the total elimination of government here. Defense was and is I think the most important and main reason to have a federal government. That Woodrow Wilson, FDR and the rest made the federal government massive as it is outside of its original intention, has little to do with government winning WW2. As you can see, after that, the US hasn't won any significant wars, probably because the federal government lost focus on its sole and most important duty.


You were questioning why you, as a business owner, had to pay taxes under duress. It stank of entitlement, so I thought a history lesson would help. Freedom aint free. WW2 expanded federal taxation enormously from 7% to 64% of the population.

https://teachinghistory.org/history-con ... rian/24489
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seb146
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Re: Arizona GOP says the quiet part with a bullhorn: ‘Everybody shouldn’t be voting’

Fri Mar 12, 2021 9:47 pm

It sounds like people think voting should be taken away if you don't pay taxes? Is that right? An American citizen should be denied a basic right based on tax? That would certainly cut down on the Republican base but that is ridiculous. If you are an American citizen, you get a vote. It should not be that difficult for us to vote. I know Republicans hate democracy and voting which is why they are doing this.

Georgia is taking away absentee voting, early voting, polling places, and even wanting fines for people handing out water and food to those standing in those insane lines to vote. Because Republicans hate democracy.
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Aaron747
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Re: Arizona GOP says the quiet part with a bullhorn: ‘Everybody shouldn’t be voting’

Fri Mar 12, 2021 9:56 pm

seb146 wrote:
It sounds like people think voting should be taken away if you don't pay taxes? Is that right? An American citizen should be denied a basic right based on tax? That would certainly cut down on the Republican base but that is ridiculous. If you are an American citizen, you get a vote. It should not be that difficult for us to vote. I know Republicans hate democracy and voting which is why they are doing this.

Georgia is taking away absentee voting, early voting, polling places, and even wanting fines for people handing out water and food to those standing in those insane lines to vote. Because Republicans hate democracy.


Not all, but too many on that side feel they are losing the effort to enforce/protect 1950s white, Christian values. Suppressing the vote is a logical way to prolong the change they fear - regardless of the damage it does to the concept of ‘one person, one vote’.
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Kiwirob
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Re: Arizona GOP says the quiet part with a bullhorn: ‘Everybody shouldn’t be voting’

Fri Mar 12, 2021 10:04 pm

Yip let’s only allow property owners and or high school graduates the vote, everyone else you’re not smart enough. Men only of course, can’t have those pesky women voting! :banghead:
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Arizona GOP says the quiet part with a bullhorn: ‘Everybody shouldn’t be voting’

Fri Mar 12, 2021 10:11 pm

johns624 wrote:
I guess according to GalaxyFlyer, once you retire and collect Social Security, you aren't allowed to vote anymore.


You have a minimum age for voting so why not a maximum age, a lot of elderly people are clearly bonkers, many of them voted for Trump.
 
johns624
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Re: Arizona GOP says the quiet part with a bullhorn: ‘Everybody shouldn’t be voting’

Fri Mar 12, 2021 10:16 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
johns624 wrote:
I guess according to GalaxyFlyer, once you retire and collect Social Security, you aren't allowed to vote anymore.


You have a minimum age for voting so why not a maximum age, a lot of elderly people are clearly bonkers, many of them voted for Trump.
One of them was Trump! :D
 
LittleFokker
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Re: Arizona GOP says the quiet part with a bullhorn: ‘Everybody shouldn’t be voting’

Fri Mar 12, 2021 11:54 pm

Flaps wrote:
Depends on how you define "everyone". Illegals should not be voting. Convicted criminals should not be voting while serving their sentences. Dead people should never be voting. Green card holders should not be voting. ALL LEGAL citizens do have the right to vote. Whether they choose to exercise that right or not is up to the individual. Requiring identification that proves eligibility (aka citizenship) is not denying anyone the right to vote.


Nothing the GQP has proposed will actually ensure the election security you claim to desire. It's about keeping the lowest caste (and America has a caste system, it's just not official or discussed much) out of the voting booth. HR1 actually has more election security measures in it.
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c933103
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Re: Arizona GOP says the quiet part with a bullhorn: ‘Everybody shouldn’t be voting’

Sat Mar 13, 2021 2:04 am

vhqpa wrote:
c933103 wrote:
cpd wrote:

Do explain further in great detail the basis of this comment and your own experience/knowledge to back up the comment. I’d be very interested to know.

I have heard of some from Australia where one would be fined for not voting, that they don't care about politics and thus simply toss the coin on election day to decide who they're going to vote for, or simply vote whoever their friends recommended. I don't think such votes would really help democracy.


Just to clear things up in Australia you aren't forced to vote for any running candidate if you don't wish to . You're required to get your name crossed off the electoral roll, take a ballot paper and put the ballot into the ballot box. You're more than welcome to void your vote by leaving the ballot blank, draw a picture of an elephant, or add a "none of the above" box. It's called an Informal vote. As far as know there are no laws against it, but even then it can't be traced back an individual.

I'm aware of the Australian system allow people to put a blank or invalid ballot into ballot box, but there are also some would just do what I said instead when they're being required to have the record of casting vote, even if they might not be a great part of the whole population
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Kent350787
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Re: Arizona GOP says the quiet part with a bullhorn: ‘Everybody shouldn’t be voting’

Sat Mar 13, 2021 3:20 am

c933103 wrote:
vhqpa wrote:
c933103 wrote:
I have heard of some from Australia where one would be fined for not voting, that they don't care about politics and thus simply toss the coin on election day to decide who they're going to vote for, or simply vote whoever their friends recommended. I don't think such votes would really help democracy.


Just to clear things up in Australia you aren't forced to vote for any running candidate if you don't wish to . You're required to get your name crossed off the electoral roll, take a ballot paper and put the ballot into the ballot box. You're more than welcome to void your vote by leaving the ballot blank, draw a picture of an elephant, or add a "none of the above" box. It's called an Informal vote. As far as know there are no laws against it, but even then it can't be traced back an individual.

I'm aware of the Australian system allow people to put a blank or invalid ballot into ballot box, but there are also some would just do what I said instead when they're being required to have the record of casting vote, even if they might not be a great part of the whole population


Everyone eligible to vote is required to make a decision. Yes, there are some people that will make uninformed, even stupid decisions, but they have still made that decision. And we also don’t have the same extremes around getting turnout.

Looking from Australia to countries without our system, it seems that disenfranchisement can be as effective a strategy as actually getting people to vote for you.
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N867DA
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Re: Arizona GOP says the quiet part with a bullhorn: ‘Everybody shouldn’t be voting’

Sat Mar 13, 2021 4:34 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
If you receive money or other valuable consideration from the government, you should forfeit your vote—you have a conflict of interest. That applies to people and companies, zero corporate welfare, zero contributions to politics in any form.

If you don’t pay taxes, don’t own property, don’t run a business, no votes—you have no stake in society other than a payback.


Question: should this policy apply to veterans and active military members as well? Or, for that matter, any government employee, contractor, or employee thereof?
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c933103
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Re: Arizona GOP says the quiet part with a bullhorn: ‘Everybody shouldn’t be voting’

Sat Mar 13, 2021 5:03 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
If you receive money or other valuable consideration from the government, you should forfeit your vote—you have a conflict of interest. That applies to people and companies, zero corporate welfare, zero contributions to politics in any form.

If you don’t pay taxes, don’t own property, don’t run a business, no votes—you have no stake in society other than a payback.

One problem with what you said is, "pay tax, own property, run business" is not the only form of getting involved in a society. There can be housewives who are dependent on their husband to make a living but take care of the whole family, there can be retiree who might no longer engage in economic activity but still actively participate in social activity, they are all part of the society.

Kent350787 wrote:
Everyone eligible to vote is required to make a decision. Yes, there are some people that will make uninformed, even stupid decisions, but they have still made that decision. And we also don’t have the same extremes around getting turnout.

Looking from Australia to countries without our system, it seems that disenfranchisement can be as effective a strategy as actually getting people to vote for you.

Not attending the voting place could also be an option where it isn't being required.
Yes there are some countries around the world where some politicians have tried to win the election by discouraging opponent supporters from voting, and it is a problem, but I don't think the solution to that could only be sending literally everyone into the voting booth.
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Aaron747
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Re: Arizona GOP says the quiet part with a bullhorn: ‘Everybody shouldn’t be voting’

Sat Mar 13, 2021 5:37 am

c933103 wrote:
One problem with what you said is, "pay tax, own property, run business" is not the only form of getting involved in a society. There can be housewives who are dependent on their husband to make a living but take care of the whole family, there can be retiree who might no longer engage in economic activity but still actively participate in social activity, they are all part of the society.


Also in your possible cohort: university students who don't work P/T or pay taxes because their parents are wealthy. Should they be excluded from the system if over 18? The argument from GF is nonsense.
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seb146
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Re: Arizona GOP says the quiet part with a bullhorn: ‘Everybody shouldn’t be voting’

Wed Mar 17, 2021 12:00 am

I heard an interesting theory brought up again, with all these voter suppression acts being introduced across the country in heavily Republican states:

Republicans are almost all white. They are afraid of sharing power with minorities and afraid of being in the minority because whites historically treated minorities horrible, they fear minorities will treat whites as badly or worse.
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Sokes
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Re: Arizona GOP says the quiet part with a bullhorn: ‘Everybody shouldn’t be voting’

Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:34 am

I consider myself far more educated and well read than the average, but my capacity to predict policy outcomes is very limited. So either I lack smartness or it simply isn't a matter of smartness/ education.
My mother in law was a very ignorant person. She never read newspapers or at least saw news in TV. Even though she had a strong opinion which party is good, which one is bad. I feel she voted for her own poverty. In Germany I heard speeches of politicians who were obviously meant to appeal to jealousy. Isn't it a common thing that people vote for their own poverty, like retirement benefits and more public jobs financed with foreign credit in Greece before 2008?

In general terms: the British democracy didn't start with vote for everybody.
Ignoring the issue of votes for women: democracy with maybe 10% of people being allowed to vote was tried and democracies with nearly 100% people allowed to vote were tried. But I'm not aware that it was ever tried that only 70% of people have the vote.
So we simply can't know if it is a good idea to exclude the least educated/ smart 30%.
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bennett123
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Re: Arizona GOP says the quiet part with a bullhorn: ‘Everybody shouldn’t be voting’

Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:02 pm

Firstly, why should 30% be dis enfranchised?

Secondly, who decides which 30%?.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Arizona GOP says the quiet part with a bullhorn: ‘Everybody shouldn’t be voting’

Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:19 pm

Sokes wrote:
I consider myself far more educated and well read than the average, but my capacity to predict policy outcomes is very limited. So either I lack smartness or it simply isn't a matter of smartness/ education.
My mother in law was a very ignorant person. She never read newspapers or at least saw news in TV. Even though she had a strong opinion which party is good, which one is bad. I feel she voted for her own poverty. In Germany I heard speeches of politicians who were obviously meant to appeal to jealousy. Isn't it a common thing that people vote for their own poverty, like retirement benefits and more public jobs financed with foreign credit in Greece before 2008?

In general terms: the British democracy didn't start with vote for everybody.
Ignoring the issue of votes for women: democracy with maybe 10% of people being allowed to vote was tried and democracies with nearly 100% people allowed to vote were tried. But I'm not aware that it was ever tried that only 70% of people have the vote.
So we simply can't know if it is a good idea to exclude the least educated/ smart 30%.


So once we've stopped the dumbest 30% from voting, perhaps the next step is to stop them breeding as well?

Obviously, you'll be OK because "I consider myself far more educated and well read than the average". :sarcastic:
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Sokes
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Re: Arizona GOP says the quiet part with a bullhorn: ‘Everybody shouldn’t be voting’

Wed Mar 24, 2021 5:58 pm

scbriml wrote:
So once we've stopped the dumbest 30% from voting, perhaps the next step is to stop them breeding as well?

Obviously, you'll be OK because "I consider myself far more educated and well read than the average". :sarcastic:

I thought I made it clear that I don't have a strong opinion. First, as I mentioned, my predictions often turn out wrong.
Example minimum wage: I thought that is very harmful, but in Germany it turned out not to affect employment negative. My opinion wasn't formed by political debate. I had read Milton Friedman's "Capitalism and freedom". He gives an example many decades ago where black and white people had roughly equal unemployment rate. After introduction of minimum wage the blacks suffered a much higher unemployment rate. I now assume, but may be wrong again, that minimum wage is harmful for economies with trade deficit.
Example money supply: I'm a monetarist and therefore in favor of limited money growth and high interest. But the cheap money caused the success of renewable energies. It may indeed be cheap money that saves the climate. And I'm convinced that cheap money lifted billions of the world's poorest out of the worst forms of poverty.

Anyway common sense of smart and rather uneducated people probably often beats my book knowledge. Political life has so many variables that often the outcome of certain policies may not be predictable from looking at past events.

Contradicting this opinion is my late mother in law. What a terrible joke that she was allowed to vote.

Since many people here have a strong opinion that everybody should have the right to vote: where does this strong opinion come from? Is there evidence to suggest that?


About stopping people from breeding:
Would you support your son/ daughter to have a child with a schizophrenic? If not, you also are a believer in eugenics.
I married in a family with a history of mental problems and from my experience I conclude eugenics is good. I formed that opinion after my son was already born and decided not to have further children. I was lucky. My son is like me. I wonder if I would be still with the family if he had to come after my wife (Cluster B personality). I'm willing to take her abuse since he loves his mother. Interesting enough she is a nice character. She isn't deceitful, doesn't lie and is happy if she can help others. She just has a bad brain like others have a bad kidney or liver. And she is smart.

Eugenics is never about 30% of the population. It's about maybe 1% of the population. I have a brother in law who is slightly mentally disabled, so the family never got him married. That's an absolutely right decision in my opinion. He can't handle his own life. How should he handle a family?
Can you tell me why prison inmates or drug addicts should get children?
Is there a historic example where supporters of eugenics demanded that 30% of the population should be sterilized?

By the way: my wife was born after the said brother already had an incident of conversion disorder. Why did the government allow my mother in law to have further children? It is pointless to discuss domestic violence as long as such people are allowed to have children. You know the movie "Pain and Gain" where Dwayne Johnson plays a Christian who just can't control his temper?
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seb146
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Re: Arizona GOP says the quiet part with a bullhorn: ‘Everybody shouldn’t be voting’

Wed Mar 24, 2021 5:58 pm

Sokes wrote:
I consider myself far more educated and well read than the average, but my capacity to predict policy outcomes is very limited. So either I lack smartness or it simply isn't a matter of smartness/ education.
My mother in law was a very ignorant person. She never read newspapers or at least saw news in TV. Even though she had a strong opinion which party is good, which one is bad. I feel she voted for her own poverty. In Germany I heard speeches of politicians who were obviously meant to appeal to jealousy. Isn't it a common thing that people vote for their own poverty, like retirement benefits and more public jobs financed with foreign credit in Greece before 2008?

In general terms: the British democracy didn't start with vote for everybody.
Ignoring the issue of votes for women: democracy with maybe 10% of people being allowed to vote was tried and democracies with nearly 100% people allowed to vote were tried. But I'm not aware that it was ever tried that only 70% of people have the vote.
So we simply can't know if it is a good idea to exclude the least educated/ smart 30%.


American democracy didn't start with everyone voting, either. It was only white male land owners. The vote was expanded to white males, to male minorities, then to women. Also, there were those who participated in the attempted coup on 1/6 who didn't even vote. Yet, they were so angry their guy didn't win, they attempted to overthrow the government.

I still say we should be making it easy for LEGAL Americans to vote rather than making it harder for people to vote. If you don't want to vote, fine. But, don't organize and participate in a coup when your candidates lose.
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casinterest
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Re: Arizona GOP says the quiet part with a bullhorn: ‘Everybody shouldn’t be voting’

Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:22 pm

Maybe it needs a new thread, but yesterday White Men in Georgia signed voter suppression rules into law while wearing masks in front of a picture of one of Georgia's remaining plantations. This plantations serves as a historical site to remind people of how life in Georgia once was. The masks were for Covid, but i am sure they served significance as well to the followers of these folks
Image
https://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2021/03 ... 616713633/

Amongst the sweeping Un-American laws was the below inhumane gem.

Other provisions would make it a crime for non-election workers to give food or beverage to voters waiting in line to vote and ban out-of-precinct voting until 5 p.m., requiring voters to sign an affidavit saying they can't get to their assigned precinct in time to vote.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
luckyone
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Re: Arizona GOP says the quiet part with a bullhorn: ‘Everybody shouldn’t be voting’

Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:34 pm

casinterest wrote:
Maybe it needs a new thread, but yesterday White Men in Georgia signed voter suppression rules into law while wearing masks in front of a picture of one of Georgia's remaining plantations. This plantations serves as a historical site to remind people of how life in Georgia once was. The masks were for Covid, but i am sure they served significance as well to the followers of these folks
Image
https://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2021/03 ... 616713633/

Amongst the sweeping Un-American laws was the below inhumane gem.

Other provisions would make it a crime for non-election workers to give food or beverage to voters waiting in line to vote and ban out-of-precinct voting until 5 p.m., requiring voters to sign an affidavit saying they can't get to their assigned precinct in time to vote.

A knee jerk reaction on the part of the Georgia GOP. Will be rich to see what they complain about the next time an election doesn't go their way. God forbid they just acknowledge they hitched their horse to a wagon that had been set on fire.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Arizona GOP says the quiet part with a bullhorn: ‘Everybody shouldn’t be voting’

Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:41 pm

luckyone wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Maybe it needs a new thread, but yesterday White Men in Georgia signed voter suppression rules into law while wearing masks in front of a picture of one of Georgia's remaining plantations. This plantations serves as a historical site to remind people of how life in Georgia once was. The masks were for Covid, but i am sure they served significance as well to the followers of these folks
Image
https://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2021/03 ... 616713633/

Amongst the sweeping Un-American laws was the below inhumane gem.

Other provisions would make it a crime for non-election workers to give food or beverage to voters waiting in line to vote and ban out-of-precinct voting until 5 p.m., requiring voters to sign an affidavit saying they can't get to their assigned precinct in time to vote.

A knee jerk reaction on the part of the Georgia GOP. Will be rich to see what they complain about the next time an election doesn't go their way. God forbid they just acknowledge they hitched their horse to a wagon that had been set on fire.



We will have to see if it lasts that long . The first lawsuit with Stacy Abrams on board has been filed.


https://www.motherjones.com/mojo-wire/2 ... arc-elias/


“None of the bill’s burdensome and discriminatory changes to Georgia’s election code will increase the public’s confidence in the state’s election administration or ensure election integrity,” the lawsuit, announced by Marc Elias, the prominent election lawyer, argues. “Rather, the grab bag of voting restrictions that populate SB 202 make clear that the Bill was animated by an impermissible goal of restricting voting.”


The three groups—the New Georgia Project, which was founded by Stacey Abrams, the Black Voters Matter Fund, and Rise—objected to a wide range of provisions in the bill, including a ban on non-poll workers distributing water to voters waiting in line and restrictions on the use of absentee drop boxes. And as my colleague Ari Berman writes, the “major power grab” would give the state board of elections sweeping powers “to take over county election boards it views as underperforming, raising the possibility that elections officials appointed by and beholden to the heavily gerrymandered Republican legislature could take over election operations in Democratic strongholds like Atlanta’s Fulton County, where Trump and his allies spread conspiracy theories about ‘suitcases’ of ballots being counted by election officials in November after GOP poll monitors had left.”


Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain

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