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Dutchy
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Election time: the Dutch version

Mon Mar 15, 2021 6:43 pm

On Wednesday we have another general election in the Netherlands. Quite an interesting election, if you ask me, and not just for the. difficulties because of Corona. All of the 150 seats in the Second Chamber are at stake.

So if you do not know - I don't blame you - how Dutch parliament works and what exactly is at stake, this video gives you a general idea in a few minutes.

Our Prime Minister's party - Mark Rutte, VVD, a Conservative-Liberal party - is, accordingly to the polls, going to be the largest. The polls point to parties on. the center-right and right will win more seat and on the left will lose a bit. Within the proportional election system, for one seat you need 1/150th of the number of votes cast, small parties might get a seat. This time around, we will probably see 3 more parties voted in: VOLT - first pan European party, Bij1 - leftish, inclusive party, JA21 - right-wing conservative party, The new Parliament might have 17 or 18 parties.

A link to a quick overview of the elections and what will probably happen when they will try to form a coalition between 4 to 7 parties.

So what do you think the results will be and the consequences for Dutch politics? Thoughts....

Due to the Covid-pandemic, voting is a bit more difficult. People over 70 can vote by mail - already closed. People who are medically vulnerable may vote on Monday and Tuesday if they want to. And of course, more polling stations are opened on Wednesday, including special venues like Soccor stations, Musea, drive-through voting options etc. For me, a small benefit from the pandemic, I will be casting my vote in style:

Image

Source for the picture, wikipedia
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
ltbewr
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Re: Election time: the Dutch version

Mon Mar 15, 2021 7:25 pm

I presume you are voting in what is a Railway Museum. Is the decoration at the entry of the museum the usual or for the election or from a special event ?

I know in the USA most election sites fly an American flag at their entry point. Most election sites in the USA are in public schools, municipal offices, firehouses, but sometimes in people garages. When I first voted in in 1972 in New Jersey, the location was the showroom of a car dealership (for then Chrysler's Plymouth brand - it later became and still is an Irish style pub-restaurant), a few years later it was moved to a school site.

Why didn't The Netherlands consider more extensive voting by mail like done due to the Pandemic in most of the USA states ?

Considering recent social rends in The Netherlands, and from the info in the linked video, I suspect a slight right-conservative movement. I doubt many will support radical attitudes toward Muslims but for sure some voters will want a more restrictive view toward immigrants, less access to marijuana to non-residents, more cautious attitudes with the EU, end or substantially reduce the 'red light districts' but keep prostitution legal 'behind closed doors'.
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: Election time: the Dutch version

Mon Mar 15, 2021 7:54 pm

Thanks for posting. I wasn't aware The Netherlands used the PR system. Living in Ireland I know it all too well! Sometimes it frustrates me, but I do see its positives. What are the main issues in this election? Is the government's handling of Covid an issue at all?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Election time: the Dutch version

Mon Mar 15, 2021 8:06 pm

ltbewr wrote:
I presume you are voting in what is a Railway Museum. Is the decoration at the entry of the museum the usual or for the election or from a special event ?


Yes, it is indeed the national Railway museum. I. guess for a special event, the picture is not from today.

ltbewr wrote:
I know in the USA most election sites fly an American flag at their entry point. Most election sites in the USA are in public schools, municipal offices, firehouses, but sometimes in people garages. When I first voted in in 1972 in New Jersey, the location was the showroom of a car dealership (for then Chrysler's Plymouth brand - it later became and still is an Irish style pub-restaurant), a few years later it was moved to a school site.


Under normal circumstances, schools, railway stations or other public buildings are used. I have voted in schools, shelters of the Salvation Army, the rectory of my local church, but mostly at elementary schools. As with everything, the reason of voting on Wednesday is a combination of a huge compromise and pragmatism. Elementary school children are free on Wednesday afternoons, thus the schools are empty for most of the day, especially normally most people will tend to vote, either early in the morning, between 7.30 and 8.30 or between 4pm - 9pm, after work.

ltbewr wrote:
Why didn't The Netherlands consider more extensive voting by mail like done due to the Pandemic in most of the USA states?


I am not an expert, so please take my answer with a grain of salt. I think because of two reasons: polling stations are mostly within walking/biking distance, so the barrier to go to a voting station is very minimal. Secondly, it is very easy to ask someone else to cast your vote for you. You get a "stempas", and on it you may give your permission to someone else to vote, if you cannot do it yourself. The person who will vote for you will need a copy of the identification papers and then this person can vote on your behalf. Normally you can take two other "stempassen", beside your own, to the polling station, this election you can take 3, due to Covid.

Image

Source for the picture

Considering recent social rends in The Netherlands, and from the info in the linked video, I suspect a slight right-conservative movement.[/quote]

Well, there I tend to disagree with the video. Given that even the VVD has quite a social program this year, the trend is more toward more social policies/progresive than conservative ones.

ltbewr wrote:
I doubt many will support radical attitudes toward Muslims,


Then the PVV or FvD are parties for those voters...

ltbewr wrote:
but for sure some voters will want a more restrictive view toward immigrants,


Yes, some for sure and some want a more liberal stance towards refugees, most, of course, are quite nuanced. Immigration from other parts of the EU doesn't seem to much of an issue anymore.

ltbewr wrote:
less access to marijuana to non-residents,


Doesn't seem much of an issue at the moment.

ltbewr wrote:
more cautious attitudes with the EU,


Due to Brexit, this seems to be less, the EU seems to be more populair. Only a few parties want a real Nexit and VOLT, the Pan European party will be voted into parliament with between 1 and 3 seats.

ltbewr wrote:
end or substantially reduce the 'red light districts' but keep prostitution legal 'behind closed doors'.


That isn't a real issue either. Only the SGP and CU, extreme conservative Christian party and more socialist Christian party, want to do something about that.

In the end, Covid, climate policies, housing policies, social policies and health care will determine this election. Not the other issue's you mentioned.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Election time: the Dutch version

Mon Mar 15, 2021 8:18 pm

Braybuddy wrote:
Thanks for posting. I wasn't aware The Netherlands used the PR system. Living in Ireland I know it all too well! Sometimes it frustrates me, but I do see its positives. What are the main issues in this election? Is the government's handling of Covid an issue at all?


Most people are behind how the government is handling Covid, sure they disagree on some points, but in general it isn't a real issue. Only the Forum voor Democracy, right populist party, is calling for a totally different policy.

Main issue's climate change/environment, housing (how to build 1millions new homes till 2030), social issues.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: Election time: the Dutch version

Mon Mar 15, 2021 11:04 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Most people are behind how the government is handling Covid, sure they disagree on some points, but in general it isn't a real issue. Only the Forum voor Democracy, right populist party, is calling for a totally different policy.

Main issue's climate change/environment, housing (how to build 1millions new homes till 2030), social issues.

That's a big ask: one million new homes by 2030! :shock: I think you'll need to start reclaiming some more land!
 
petertenthije
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Re: Election time: the Dutch version

Tue Mar 16, 2021 12:12 am

Braybuddy wrote:
That's a big ask: one million new homes by 2030! :shock: I think you'll need to start reclaiming some more land!
Plenty of water left to fill in. Let's get Doggerland back! :)

But it will most likely be achieved by getting rid of farming and building housing there. There's a LOT of farming done in the Netherlands. In fact, we're the number two exporter in the world.

I would say that housing is the most important issue at the moment. The market is completely locked up with prices going up to ridiculous levels. And while this problem used to be limited to Amsterdam and other "expat cities", it's now affecting the whole country except perhaps the rural northeast.

There are numerous causes to this. In part because there are just not enough houses to go around, certainly not housses affordable to people on a modal budget. Investors (including foreign investors) have caught on and are actively buying up houses. If you own a house in a popular area, then it is not uncommon to get advertising from companies offering to buy your house no questions asked... cash. I've had one of those flyers myself and I live in a housing-coop owned rental house. LOL People that want to start on the property ladder have no way to compete, and that's assuming the house makes it to the market to begin with.

Some municipalities are now creating rules that new housing developments can only be sold on the stipulation that the buyer has to personally live in the house for at least ## months/years. I think that's a good start.

Pretty much every political party has said they want to focus on housing. It's only the details on which they differ. Though with some parties you just know they are not serious, they only use the housing crisis to promote their own pet peeves. For instance Groen Links. They are opposed to roads and airports. Their master plan for housing is to close mayor roads and Rotterdam airport. While I could see Rotterdam airport closing under the right political conditions (unlikely though it is), their proposal of closing down a good chunk of the Amsterdam inner ring (A10 west) is a complete non-starter and everyone with half a brain knows it.
Then you've got parties like FvD that think that the first step to sorting out the housing crisis is to ban all foreigners and leave the EU. Again, that's not a solution to the housing crisis but it does fit their own pet peeves.
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Dutchy
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Re: Election time: the Dutch version

Tue Mar 16, 2021 7:37 am

petertenthije wrote:
Pretty much every political party has said they want to focus on housing. It's only the details on which they differ.


Indeed, so not too much difference there. Not to base once's vote on. It is quite clear what needs to be done. I am in the real estate business myself, so good times ahead :lol:

petertenthije wrote:
Though with some parties you just know they are not serious, they only use the housing crisis to promote their own pet peeves. For instance Groen Links. They are opposed to roads and airports. Their master plan for housing is to close mayor roads and Rotterdam airport. While I could see Rotterdam airport closing under the right political conditions (unlikely though it is), their proposal of closing down a good chunk of the Amsterdam inner ring (A10 west) is a complete non-starter and everyone with half a brain knows it.


Rotterdam could be closed indeed, just as Valkenburg airport has been closed or Soeterberg, both are major housing developments site at the moment. Plans of GroenLinks are to develop 10.000 homes on the site. Rotterdam is one of the hotspots for housing at the moment. Minimise car traffic in large parts of 'major' cities is a good idea. Bike and public transportation is much more efficient than car traffic. It is good for the social fabric of a city as well. I think Not just bikes is an excellent view to look at Dutch cities from a foreign perspective. Cars are quite dominant in the streets and take up a lot of room, physical and mental.
Given that large chunks of the residents work in Amsterdam as well, it is not unlogical to do so. So to dismiss it outright is a bit crude. Of course, the devil will be in the details.

petertenthije wrote:
Then you've got parties like FvD that think that the first step to sorting out the housing crisis is to ban all foreigners and leave the EU. Again, that's not a solution to the housing crisis but it does fit their own pet peeves.


Well, it is a solution to some of the problems, but the thing is, of course, there would be huge drawbacks as well, as seen in the UK.

Are you going to vote, Peter? And would you disclose which party earned your vote? I am going to vote, it will be on either D'66 or GroenLinks or a small chance on VOLT, have yet to decide.
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Re: Election time: the Dutch version

Tue Mar 16, 2021 7:43 am

Braybuddy wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Most people are behind how the government is handling Covid, sure they disagree on some points, but in general it isn't a real issue. Only the Forum voor Democracy, right populist party, is calling for a totally different policy.

Main issue's climate change/environment, housing (how to build 1millions new homes till 2030), social issues.

That's a big ask: one million new homes by 2030! :shock: I think you'll need to start reclaiming some more land!


Yes, given that there are only 7,8 residential dwellings in the Netherlands, so 12,5% more. Don't know the current figures, but the land use used to be something like: 8% infrastructure, 15% nature, 69% farmland and "only" 8% buildings/cities. So one percentage point less farmland, the problem is dealt with. ;)
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
marcelh
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Re: Election time: the Dutch version

Tue Mar 16, 2021 10:13 am

Dutchy wrote:
I am going to vote, it will be on either D'66 or GroenLinks or a small chance on VOLT, have yet to decide.


I like VOLT because of their European focus. IMHO the Netherlands is way too narrow minded in regard to the EU (part of the "Frugal Four"). VVD (prime minister Mark Rutte) is looking good with the more "socialist"approach, but in the last decade he has done a lot of budget cuts (healh care, social security), some environmental issues (nitrogen deposition) are the result of opportunistic economic policy and he has completely mishandled the childcare benefit scandal ("toeslagenaffaire").
 
petertenthije
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Re: Election time: the Dutch version

Tue Mar 16, 2021 12:09 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Are you going to vote, Peter? And would you disclose which party earned your vote? I am going to vote, it will be on either D'66 or GroenLinks or a small chance on VOLT, have yet to decide.

Yeah, though not sure yet for whom. Usually I try several kieswijzer, and then browse the key points of the parties the kieswijzers advise me. Usually I go CDA or VVD. This time one of the kieswijzers advised me P50+. Their name does not really cover me, but they got some good points. ;)

I am not a big fan of D66. They got no principles at all. For decades, since their first founding, they were the party of the referendum. Then when they finally get what they want, they want to get rid of the referendum because the first referendum (EU grondwet) went against their program. It's been a few years ago, but still enough reason for me to ignore them.

GroenLinks are not my party either. It's good to be idealistic, but I would appreciate some realism from them as well. I am missing that with them. For instance with their idea to close mayor roads mentioned earlier. Also, to take it to aviation, their ideas on curtailing aviation are shortsighted. If you want to curtail aviation, then this should be done europe-wide. If you only tax flights in NL, then the number of flights won't change. They will only change to DUS, NRN, BRU, CRL etc. This was already tried in 2005 and scrapped 2011.
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Re: Election time: the Dutch version

Tue Mar 16, 2021 3:11 pm

Question: How many questions are on a Dutch ballot? Is it just a single vote for your local representative?
-Doc Lightning-

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AeroVega
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Re: Election time: the Dutch version

Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:34 pm

I already voted today. My vote went to the party animals.
 
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Re: Election time: the Dutch version

Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:41 pm

DocLightning wrote:
Question: How many questions are on a Dutch ballot? Is it just a single vote for your local representative?


You vote for your favorite candidate for member of parliament. Just a single circle to fill with a red pencil.
 
petertenthije
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Re: Election time: the Dutch version

Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:44 pm

DocLightning wrote:
Question: How many questions are on a Dutch ballot? Is it just a single vote for your local representative?

Strictly speaking there are 20 districts, but few people (and parties!) take this into consideration. In fact, had I not been looking up a copy of the ballot paper for you, I would not even have known there are differences!
It's not like in the USA where everyone seems to know their local representative. Most people running for government are running in every district even if they've never ever been there in their live. The carribean islands such as Bonaire being pretty much the only exception to that.

There are a total of 37 political parties on the ballots, though not all of them run in each district. For instance, in the districts with large universities you can vote for the "De Feestpartij" (EN: The party party). I think you can guess how serious they are. But there are also parties that limit themselves to specific regions because they cater specifically to regional interests. For instance "Jezus Leeft"(EN: Jezus lives) running only in the Dutch bible belt. (yes, there is a bible belt in NL as well)

Each party can add as many people on the list as they want. The VVD, the current majority party, have 80 people running. The Feestparty mentioned earlier only has a single person.

All in all there are 100s of people to choose from. The ballot is quite literally the size of a broadsheet newspaper.

However, your vote principcally goes to the party. They decide which of the people on their list go in. Typically they follow the order by which people are listed on the ballet. That said, if a person gets enough votes they get elected into parliament outright. So if number 80 on the list gets enough votes, they are elected at the expense of number 79/78/77/.....
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Re: Election time: the Dutch version

Tue Mar 16, 2021 6:34 pm

AeroVega wrote:
I already voted today. My vote went to the party animals.


Is that De Feestpartij that petertenthije referenced?
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petertenthije
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Re: Election time: the Dutch version

Tue Mar 16, 2021 7:11 pm

DocLightning wrote:
AeroVega wrote:
I already voted today. My vote went to the party animals.


Is that De Feestpartij that petertenthije referenced?

I think he might mean the Partij voor de Dieren (EN: Party for the animals).
They are a left leaning party that places the environment, including animal welfare, top of the agenda.

In their own words:
https://www.partijvoordedieren.nl/
NL: De Partij voor de Dieren staat voor duurzaamheid, mededogen, persoonlijke vrijheid en persoonlijke verantwoordelijkheid.
EN: The party for animals stands for durability, compassion, personal freedom and personal responsibility.
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Dutchy
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Re: Election time: the Dutch version

Tue Mar 16, 2021 8:23 pm

DocLightning wrote:
AeroVega wrote:
I already voted today. My vote went to the party animals.


Is that De Feestpartij that petertenthije referenced?


The joy of democracy: https://www.defeestpartij.nl/. Johan Vlemmix is an interesting guy, never a dull moment. Not suited for politics though.

Similar, I guess, to Joe Exotic for president or Lord Buckethead in the UK.
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petertenthije
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Re: Election time: the Dutch version

Wed Mar 17, 2021 11:08 pm

Dutchy wrote:
For me, a small benefit from the pandemic, I will be casting my vote in style:

My local polling station was in a church. Nothing special.

On the other side of town an art gallery was used. They had just changed their exhibition a few weeks ago. The new exhibition is called "For your eyes only", and features nude photos from the 60s and 70s. Most people, men and women alike, told the newspaper they did not mind the photos as they are merely erotic, not sexual. But obviously the photos were not to everyone's liking.

The linked article might below be NSFW if you are in a more puritan country then the Netherlands. ;)
https://www.bd.nl/den-bosch-vught/rode- ... ~ab129c8a/
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Re: Election time: the Dutch version

Thu Mar 18, 2021 9:30 am

Elections over, formation of a new government commances.

Mark Rutte has claimed an “overwhelming” victory in national elections in the Netherlands, vowing to use a fourth term in office to rebuild the country after the coronavirus pandemic.

Following a dull campaign fought during the pandemic and seen as a referendum on the government’s performance during the crisis, exit polls suggested the VVD had won 35 of the Dutch parliaments 150 seats, two more than in the previous election.


Link to the Guardian article.

The preliminary results, the end results will be in today or tomorrow.

329 out of the 356 of the municipalities counted.

Out of the 150 seats in parliament;

VVD: 35 (+2)
D'66: 24 (+5)
PVV: 17 (-3)
CDA: 15 (-4)
SP: 9 (-5)
PVDA: 9 (+0)
FvD: 8 (+6)
GroenLinks: 7 (-7)
Partij vd Dieren: 6 (+1)
ChristenUnie: 5 (+0)
JA21: 4 (+4)
SGP: 3 (+0)
VOLT: 3 (+3)
DENK: 2 (-1)
50PLUS: 1 (-3)
BIJ1: 1 (+1)
BBB: 1 (+1)

Turnout is round 79,2%, down form 2017-elections: 81,7%.

If this reflects the end result, we welcome 3 new parties into parliament, 17 in all. The new coalition will be made up of 4 parties yet again. Rutte will probably remain the Prime Minister, if he manages to end this term, he will be the longest-serving Prime Minister in our history. He is one of the longest-serving heads of government in the EU, especially when Merkel resigns at the end of the year.
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Dutchy
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Re: Election time: the Dutch version

Thu Mar 18, 2021 9:34 am

petertenthije wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
For me, a small benefit from the pandemic, I will be casting my vote in style:

My local polling station was in a church. Nothing special.

On the other side of town an art gallery was used. They had just changed their exhibition a few weeks ago. The new exhibition is called "For your eyes only", and features nude photos from the 60s and 70s. Most people, men and women alike, told the newspaper they did not mind the photos as they are merely erotic, not sexual. But obviously the photos were not to everyone's liking.

The linked article might below be NSFW if you are in a more puritan country then the Netherlands. ;)
https://www.bd.nl/den-bosch-vught/rode- ... ~ab129c8a/


Gee, if you take offence on the arts, go to another polling station, there must be a few dozens all over Den Bosch. Den Bosch is a nice place to live though, especially after Corona and in the summer. Lot's of bars to choose from 8-)
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Aesma
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Re: Election time: the Dutch version

Thu Mar 18, 2021 12:34 pm

Overwhelming victory = 35 seats out of 150 ah ah.

By comparison Macron got 308 out of 577 (in truth more like 480 not 577 since the LREM party didn't contest seats given to allies or politicians supporting Macron).

There are calls to bring back proportional representation in France (we had it from 1986 to 1988) but a way must be found to have a bit clearer majorities / decent minorities than what just happened in NL, 17 parties with the biggest one having 23% of the seats would never work here. We see how it's difficult in Italy, but they have had that for some time so they're used to it, here it would be a huge mess especially with the presidential election being clear cut.
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petertenthije
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Re: Election time: the Dutch version

Thu Mar 18, 2021 1:14 pm

Aesma wrote:
Overwhelming victory = 35 seats out of 150 ah ah.

You have to consider that 37 parties where running. It was never gonna be anything near 50%. Having nearly a quarter of the votes is a good result.

At the moment it looks like the VVD got 35 seats, with the runner up D66 having 24 seats. A nearly 50% difference is overwhelming. Compare that for instance to the 2012 elections where the VVD got 41 and runner up PvdA got 38 seats.
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Dutchy
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Re: Election time: the Dutch version

Thu Mar 18, 2021 2:56 pm

petertenthije wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Overwhelming victory = 35 seats out of 150 ah ah.

You have to consider that 37 parties where running. It was never gonna be anything near 50%. Having nearly a quarter of the votes is a good result.

At the moment it looks like the VVD got 35 seats, with the runner up D66 having 24 seats. A nearly 50% difference is overwhelming. Compare that for instance to the 2012 elections where the VVD got 41 and runner up PvdA got 38 seats.


Yeah. And if you go back a bit further, election results with the winner taking 50plus seats weren't unheard of at all.


Image

Source

The trend is more parties, more seats for right-wing and left-wing parties (and new parties on both extreme sides) and the diminished influence of CDA - christen democrats.

Interesting graphic though, never realized that only 3 parties ever - past WWII - delivered the Prime Minister: PVDA (labor), CDA (Christen Democrats) and VVD (Liberal conservative)
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Aesma
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Re: Election time: the Dutch version

Thu Mar 18, 2021 4:47 pm

In any case it's not overwhelming. I was talking about Macron's party, and of course Macron himself got something like 67% at the second round of the election, but only 24% at the first round, and that is seen as low, hampering his legitimacy, etc.

From my understanding the VVD is allied with the D66, with 35 seats and 24 respectively. Surely D66 will wield a lot of power ?
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AeroVega
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Re: Election time: the Dutch version

Thu Mar 18, 2021 4:51 pm

Dutchy wrote:
VVD: 35 (+2)
D'66: 24 (+5)
PVV: 17 (-3)
CDA: 15 (-4)
SP: 9 (-5)
PVDA: 9 (+0)
FvD: 8 (+6)
GroenLinks: 7 (-7)
Partij vd Dieren: 6 (+1)
ChristenUnie: 5 (+0)
JA21: 4 (+4)
SGP: 3 (+0)
VOLT: 3 (+3)
DENK: 2 (-1)
50PLUS: 1 (-3)
BIJ1: 1 (+1)
BBB: 1 (+1)


Perhaps good to qualify for people outside of The Netherlands that these results mark quite a strong shift to the political right. The VVD used to be the party furthest to the right on the political spectrum (bar the occasional fringe party), but now there are new parties to the right of de VVD (PVV, FvD, JA21) that combined (29) almost challenge the VVD (35) in size. For comparison, left wing parties (PvdA, SP, GroenLinks, DENK, BIJ1) have just 28 seats combined.
 
Arion640
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Re: Election time: the Dutch version

Thu Mar 18, 2021 6:13 pm

Congratulations to Mark Rutte for winning the largest share of the vote in the election.

The kingdom of the Netherlands and the United Kingdom are close allies and very like minded. Long live the netherlands.
 
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Re: Election time: the Dutch version

Thu Mar 18, 2021 6:14 pm

Dutchy wrote:
DocLightning wrote:
AeroVega wrote:
I already voted today. My vote went to the party animals.


Is that De Feestpartij that petertenthije referenced?


The joy of democracy: https://www.defeestpartij.nl/. Johan Vlemmix is an interesting guy, never a dull moment. Not suited for politics though.

Similar, I guess, to Joe Exotic for president or Lord Buckethead in the UK.


Did you vote for Mark Rutte?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Election time: the Dutch version

Thu Mar 18, 2021 6:49 pm

Arion640 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
DocLightning wrote:

Is that De Feestpartij that petertenthije referenced?


The joy of democracy: https://www.defeestpartij.nl/. Johan Vlemmix is an interesting guy, never a dull moment. Not suited for politics though.

Similar, I guess, to Joe Exotic for president or Lord Buckethead in the UK.


Did you vote for Mark Rutte?


What ever made you think that? No, of course not. ;) Way back in the day, I was a member of his party. I even almost won the VVD-debating tournament (and afterward organized it a few times) with him as a jury member. But I am way to progressive for the VVD and to environmental-minded.
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Re: Election time: the Dutch version

Thu Mar 18, 2021 6:59 pm

AeroVega wrote:
Perhaps good to qualify for people outside of The Netherlands that these results mark quite a strong shift to the political right.


That depends on how you look at the results in combination with the manifest. There is a very strong possibility that the minimum wage will rise from 10euro something to 14euro per hour. Not really a right-wing thing I would say.

The PVV is a strange case: is combines extreme leftwing with extreme rightwing points of view. So I would quality the PVV as a conservative party, not left nor right. That changes your dynamic quite a bit. ;)
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Re: Election time: the Dutch version

Thu Mar 18, 2021 7:39 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Elections over, formation of a new government commances.

Mark Rutte has claimed an “overwhelming” victory in national elections in the Netherlands, vowing to use a fourth term in office to rebuild the country after the coronavirus pandemic.

Following a dull campaign fought during the pandemic and seen as a referendum on the government’s performance during the crisis, exit polls suggested the VVD had won 35 of the Dutch parliaments 150 seats, two more than in the previous election.


Link to the Guardian article.

The preliminary results, the end results will be in today or tomorrow.

329 out of the 356 of the municipalities counted.

Out of the 150 seats in parliament;

VVD: 35 (+2)
D'66: 24 (+5)
PVV: 17 (-3)
CDA: 15 (-4)
SP: 9 (-5)
PVDA: 9 (+0)
FvD: 8 (+6)
GroenLinks: 7 (-7)
Partij vd Dieren: 6 (+1)
ChristenUnie: 5 (+0)
JA21: 4 (+4)
SGP: 3 (+0)
VOLT: 3 (+3)
DENK: 2 (-1)
50PLUS: 1 (-3)
BIJ1: 1 (+1)
BBB: 1 (+1)

Turnout is round 79,2%, down form 2017-elections: 81,7%.

If this reflects the end result, we welcome 3 new parties into parliament, 17 in all. The new coalition will be made up of 4 parties yet again. Rutte will probably remain the Prime Minister, if he manages to end this term, he will be the longest-serving Prime Minister in our history. He is one of the longest-serving heads of government in the EU, especially when Merkel resigns at the end of the year.


Why did the Greens lose half their seats?
 
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Re: Election time: the Dutch version

Thu Mar 18, 2021 8:18 pm

Aesma wrote:
In any case it's not overwhelming. I was talking about Macron's party, and of course Macron himself got something like 67% at the second round of the election, but only 24% at the first round, and that is seen as low, hampering his legitimacy, etc.

You are comparing two different systems of government/elections.
 
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Re: Election time: the Dutch version

Thu Mar 18, 2021 8:55 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Why did the Greens lose half their seats?



GroenLinks election results, 1989 1994 1998 2002 2003 2006 2010 2012 2017: 6 5 11 10 8 7 10 4 14

So the 14 seats results were more like an exception. 7/8 seats is a more "natural" result for them.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Arion640
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Re: Election time: the Dutch version

Thu Mar 18, 2021 10:04 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

The joy of democracy: https://www.defeestpartij.nl/. Johan Vlemmix is an interesting guy, never a dull moment. Not suited for politics though.

Similar, I guess, to Joe Exotic for president or Lord Buckethead in the UK.


Did you vote for Mark Rutte?


What ever made you think that? No, of course not. ;) Way back in the day, I was a member of his party. I even almost won the VVD-debating tournament (and afterward organized it a few times) with him as a jury member. But I am way to progressive for the VVD and to environmental-minded.


Interesting. I think Mark Rutte would get my vote. Although your centre left party doesn’t seem too extreme like our far left labour party.
 
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Re: Election time: the Dutch version

Fri Mar 19, 2021 4:01 am

L410Turbolet wrote:
Aesma wrote:
In any case it's not overwhelming. I was talking about Macron's party, and of course Macron himself got something like 67% at the second round of the election, but only 24% at the first round, and that is seen as low, hampering his legitimacy, etc.

You are comparing two different systems of government/elections.


Yes. Still, when you're so far away from a majority, it means one wrong move and the government falls, which is indeed what happened this time. And happens regularly in Italy.
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Re: Election time: the Dutch version

Fri Mar 19, 2021 6:03 am

Arion640 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Arion640 wrote:

Did you vote for Mark Rutte?


What ever made you think that? No, of course not. ;) Way back in the day, I was a member of his party. I even almost won the VVD-debating tournament (and afterward organized it a few times) with him as a jury member. But I am way to progressive for the VVD and to environmental-minded.


Interesting. I think Mark Rutte would get my vote. Although your centre left party doesn’t seem too extreme like our far left labour party.


We have elected 17 parties in parliament this week. Everything from extreme right to extreme left, conservative Christians (until a few years back no women were allowed to be voted in for them), to radical environmentalists (Partij voor de Dieren), radical inclusive (DENK and BIJ1), European sceptic parties (FvD/PVV and to lesser extend SP, including NEXIT) and pro -European parties (D'66 and VOLT), parties for the elderly (50plus). The political spectrum in one image, left-right, conservative-progressive.

Image

Link to twitter post

Given this political spectrum to choose from, most mainstream parties are quite center left or center right. My choice this year was D'66, the middle road of the centre parties 8-)
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: Election time: the Dutch version

Fri Mar 19, 2021 6:06 am

Aesma wrote:
L410Turbolet wrote:
Aesma wrote:
In any case it's not overwhelming. I was talking about Macron's party, and of course Macron himself got something like 67% at the second round of the election, but only 24% at the first round, and that is seen as low, hampering his legitimacy, etc.

You are comparing two different systems of government/elections.


Yes. Still, when you're so far away from a majority, it means one wrong move and the government falls, which is indeed what happened this time. And happens regularly in Italy.


Yes, it changes the dynamic a bit, but still, most governments are quite stable. Parties know this as well, and normally it is not in their interest to send the government away. In Dutch politics, "polderen" is a welknown art. 8-)
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Re: Election time: the Dutch version

Fri Mar 19, 2021 6:08 am

The new House of Representatives has seventeen parties, four more than in 2017. It is not a record: even after the 1918 elections there were so many parties in the House. After that, however, it never happened again that so many parties populated the Chamber


Link in Dutch

I didn't know that. So interesting fact, 17 parties and it isn't even a record number.
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Re: Election time: the Dutch version

Fri Mar 19, 2021 6:19 am

At the request of D66, not one but two scouts set to work on the basis of the election results to map out the possibilities for cooperation in a new government coalition. These are Annemarie Jorritsma (VVD) and Kajsa Ollongren (D66), Chamber president Khadija Arib announced on Thursday afternoon.


Link in Dutch

Image

Link to photo

And so it begins. Formation of a new cabinet, Dutch style.

My guess the formation will take less than 100 days. So any takers for a wager?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
AeroVega
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Re: Election time: the Dutch version

Fri Mar 19, 2021 7:19 am

Aesma wrote:
L410Turbolet wrote:
Aesma wrote:
In any case it's not overwhelming. I was talking about Macron's party, and of course Macron himself got something like 67% at the second round of the election, but only 24% at the first round, and that is seen as low, hampering his legitimacy, etc.

You are comparing two different systems of government/elections.


Yes. Still, when you're so far away from a majority, it means one wrong move and the government falls, which is indeed what happened this time. And happens regularly in Italy.


I think many people in The Netherlands were surprised that Rutte resigned so easily over the childcare benefits scandal. That really does not happen in The Netherlands very often.

Now I'm starting to think that Rutte resigned so easily, and so close to the upcoming elections, just to make the childcare benefits scandal a non-issue in the election campaign. It worked splendidly for him.
 
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Re: Election time: the Dutch version

Fri Mar 19, 2021 3:20 pm

Braybuddy wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Most people are behind how the government is handling Covid, sure they disagree on some points, but in general it isn't a real issue. Only the Forum voor Democracy, right populist party, is calling for a totally different policy.

Main issue's climate change/environment, housing (how to build 1millions new homes till 2030), social issues.

That's a big ask: one million new homes by 2030! :shock: I think you'll need to start reclaiming some more land!


I see..., you'll need some "breathing room..." :lol:
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Re: Election time: the Dutch version

Fri Mar 19, 2021 5:40 pm

AeroVega wrote:
Aesma wrote:
L410Turbolet wrote:
You are comparing two different systems of government/elections.


Yes. Still, when you're so far away from a majority, it means one wrong move and the government falls, which is indeed what happened this time. And happens regularly in Italy.


I think many people in The Netherlands were surprised that Rutte resigned so easily over the childcare benefits scandal. That really does not happen in The Netherlands very often.

Now I'm starting to think that Rutte resigned so easily, and so close to the upcoming elections, just to make the childcare benefits scandal a non-issue in the election campaign. It worked splendidly for him.


I don't think most cabinets make it all the way: 4 years. In the Netherlands, 30 cabinets have taken office since 1945, chaired by a total of fifteen different prime ministers. That is an average of a little over 2,5years. The position of Rutte was no longer tenable over the childcare benefits. But indeed the most surprising issue of this election campaign that this was a non-issue. Rutte's party won and the two parties of the Members of Parliament which exposed this institutional failure, Leite (SP) and Omtzich (CDA) both lost quite considerable. Something is at odds here.

Rutte will be prime minister again, Rutte IV, but there are 4 major issue's for him in the upcoming years: parliamentary inquiries into the Childcare system, earthquakes in Groningen due to gas exploitation, handling of the Corona-crisis and a fourth one which slipped my mind. So I think, regardless of the coalition, the next election will be in two or three years' time. We'll see what will happen.
Last edited by Dutchy on Fri Mar 19, 2021 5:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Election time: the Dutch version

Fri Mar 19, 2021 5:44 pm

DIRECTFLT wrote:
Braybuddy wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Most people are behind how the government is handling Covid, sure they disagree on some points, but in general it isn't a real issue. Only the Forum voor Democracy, right populist party, is calling for a totally different policy.

Main issue's climate change/environment, housing (how to build 1millions new homes till 2030), social issues.

That's a big ask: one million new homes by 2030! :shock: I think you'll need to start reclaiming some more land!


I see..., you'll need some "breathing room..." :lol:


God created the earth, the Dutch created the Netherlands. Actually the farmer's union want to reclaim part of the North Sea to have more farmland. I mean the last major polder was reclaimed from the 'sea' is over 50years ago, I mean let's go and reclaim some more.
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Re: Election time: the Dutch version

Fri Mar 19, 2021 6:11 pm

Dutchy wrote:
I mean the last major polder was reclaimed from the 'sea' is over 50years ago, I mean let's go and reclaim some more.
The derde maasvlakte gave quite a lot of land. All of it industrial though. Well, mostly industrial, a small beach was thrown in to keep the NIMBY's satisfied. ;)
Also, in the Markermeer they are working on the Marker Wadden, specifically for ecological reasons.


Dutchy wrote:
The position of Rutte was no longer tenable over the childcare benefits.
I would disagree with that. Yes, this happened under Rutte's premiership, but almost everyone, opposition and government alike, was trying to look tough against abusers of the system. Everyone wanted the rules to be toughened, and the enforcement to be made stricter. I think that is also the reason why no party campaigned on this subject matter. It would have been all too easy for journalists to dig up juicy quotes.

It also helps that Dutch politics have not been "Americanized", where talking down the opponent is more important then talking up your own program. In this respect it helps having a multi party structure. There is a lot of overlap, so to attack a party as opposed to a position, would also mean attacking some of your own positions. Only the fringe far-left and far-right really go all-in for US styled personal attacks.


Dutchy wrote:
and a fourth one which slipped my mind.
Housing, in combination with the environmental limitations cause by emissions from amongst others nitrogen (NL stikstof).

The childcare system I do not expect to be a mayor political issue since that would burn every party to some or more degree.
That said, if the affected families are not reimbursed fully and in a timely manner, then this subject might yet explode.

As for the earthquakes, unless the next one causes a lot of casualties... this won't be a problem either. It will be a mayor talking point for local politics, but national politics pretty much stop east of the line Almere-Eindhoven. Maybe Lelystad-Arnhem if you want to be very generous. There are not enough votes to be had outside the randstad area.
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Re: Election time: the Dutch version

Fri Mar 19, 2021 6:17 pm

Aesma wrote:
There are calls to bring back proportional representation in France (we had it from 1986 to 1988) but a way must be found to have a bit clearer majorities / decent minorities than what just happened in NL, 17 parties with the biggest one having 23% of the seats would never work here. We see how it's difficult in Italy, but they have had that for some time so they're used to it, here it would be a huge mess especially with the presidential election being clear cut.


You could also look at the Nordic countries or Germany, where is much less messy.
 
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Re: Election time: the Dutch version

Fri Mar 19, 2021 6:21 pm

At least in The Netherlands voters have far more choices like in a cafeteria than the 2 parties we really only have in the USA choosing 'the lesser of 2 evils' so means collations balancing how the country is run. It also shows how the ideas of some narrow parties, like the Greens, are absorbed by other minor and leading parties.
 
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Re: Election time: the Dutch version

Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:14 pm

petertenthije wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
I mean the last major polder was reclaimed from the 'sea' is over 50years ago, I mean let's go and reclaim some more.
The derde maasvlakte gave quite a lot of land. All of it industrial though. Well, mostly industrial, a small beach was thrown in to keep the NIMBY's satisfied. ;)
Also, in the Markermeer they are working on the Marker Wadden, specifically for ecological reasons.


Maasvlakte 2: 2.000ha
Marker Wadden: 4.500 ha.

....................Flevoland: 141.100 ha

let's show some ambition :lol:
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Re: Election time: the Dutch version

Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:25 am

The formation of a new coalition has been suspended due to one of the verkenners (scout) has tested positive for Corona. Why they do not do this digital is beyond me. All the parties involved are inner crowd, so they know each other very well and things haven't progressed enough for a final push. But there we go, the formation process grinds to a hold, before it even got on the way.
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marcelh
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Re: Election time: the Dutch version

Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:01 am

Dutchy wrote:
The formation of a new coalition has been suspended due to one of the verkenners (scout) has tested positive for Corona. Why they do not do this digital is beyond me. All the parties involved are inner crowd, so they know each other very well and things haven't progressed enough for a final push. But there we go, the formation process grinds to a hold, before it even got on the way.

You are suggesting she got the virus during those talks. More likely she got infected in de “Ministerraad” by one of her colleagues.
 
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Re: Election time: the Dutch version

Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:21 pm

Dutchy wrote:
The formation of a new coalition has been suspended due to one of the verkenners (scout) has tested positive for Corona. Why they do not do this digital is beyond me. All the parties involved are inner crowd, so they know each other very well and things haven't progressed enough for a final push. But there we go, the formation process grinds to a hold, before it even got on the way.


No, I do not suggest that at all. I have no knowledge of how she got infected.

It is mute now, both "verkenners" are gone because of a stupid classic blunder:

Image

Photo source

Can you see what she did wrong :roll:
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