Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
petertenthije
Posts: 4277
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2001 10:00 pm

Re: Election time: the Dutch version

Thu Mar 25, 2021 1:40 pm

How hard can it be to put your sensitive notes in a little sleeve, so journalists can't make photos of your notes while walking to the car? Amateurs.
The first thing to remember is always treat your kite like you treat your woman.
Get inside her five times a day and take her to heaven and back!
Lord Flashheart, 1989
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 14625
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Election time: the Dutch version

Thu Mar 25, 2021 1:42 pm

The chairwoman of the chamber is called Khadija Arib, interesting.

Bostrom wrote:
Aesma wrote:
There are calls to bring back proportional representation in France (we had it from 1986 to 1988) but a way must be found to have a bit clearer majorities / decent minorities than what just happened in NL, 17 parties with the biggest one having 23% of the seats would never work here. We see how it's difficult in Italy, but they have had that for some time so they're used to it, here it would be a huge mess especially with the presidential election being clear cut.


You could also look at the Nordic countries or Germany, where is much less messy.


French people aren't Nordic or Germanic though. I mean in Sweden they still have not cut off the head of their French king !
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 12528
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Election time: the Dutch version

Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:03 pm

Aesma wrote:
The chairwoman of the chamber is called Khadija Arib, interesting.


Why interesting? There are around 1million Dutch citizens of Moroccan or Turkish descent. She was born in Hedami, Morocco. Her parents probably took her to the Netherlands and was raised and educated here. She. has been a member of Parliament for 22years. She will start a new term next week.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 12528
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Election time: the Dutch version

Fri Apr 02, 2021 2:16 pm

So two weeks in and things look grimm.

Dutch PM Rutte narrowly survives no-confidence vote

Dutch caretaker Prime Minister Mark Rutte has narrowly survived a vote of no confidence over his conduct during talks to form a governing coalition.
But he remains under pressure after parliament adopted a formal motion of disapproval which noted he had not "spoken the truth" during the talks.
Mr Rutte is accused of lying about moves to sideline a troublesome MP.
"Parliament has given me a serious message and I will try my very best to win back confidence," Mr Rutte said.

The 54-year-old has been in office for more than a decade and has been dubbed "Teflon Mark" for his ability to survive scandals.
However, almost the entire house of parliament backed the disapproval motion against him. His biggest coalition partner, Sigrid Kaag of the centre-left D66 party, said it was not clear to her that he would continue in charge of forming a new government.

Mr Rutte's centre-right VVD party won the most seats in parliamentary elections just two weeks ago, and he was in talks to form a new coalition.


Source: BBC article

So what now? Rutte is still the leader of the biggest party and building a coalition without the 35 seats will be next to impossible. Yet, the position of Mark Rutte is quite questionable. This is an unpresidented situation.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
zkojq
Posts: 4652
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:42 am

Re: Election time: the Dutch version

Sat Apr 03, 2021 12:36 am

I've enjoyed learning about dutch politics here.
First to fly the 787-9
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 12528
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Election time: the Dutch version

Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:50 pm

zkojq wrote:
I've enjoyed learning about dutch politics here.


A lot has happened in Dutch politics. Our politicians have been quite - with themselves :roll: -.

Anyhow, Tjeenk Willink, has given its report: new coalition possible with Rutte.

    Informer Tjeenk Willink has finished his assignment
    He says that Rutte could restore confidence in him at most parties
    It is up to Rutte to explain how and if he can do this shortly
    A new informateur now has to get started with the corona recovery plan
    According to Tjeenk Willink, an outline coalition agreement should also be considered


So the next phase of coalition forming is about to start. The saga continues, hopefully, a new government in a few months.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 12528
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Election time: the Dutch version

Mon Jun 14, 2021 2:49 pm

So a small update from `The Hague, and indeed it is small.

Due to all the vicissitudes surrounding the departure of Pieter Omtzigt from the CDA, party leader Wopke Hoekstra is mainly busy with his party these days. The formation comes in second place, although there were still talks with Gert-Jan Segers (ChristenUnie) and Lilianne Ploumen (PvdA) on the agenda on Monday.

The formation has become even more complicated if possible. Now it is not only the question of who-with-whom, we also have to wait and see what happens to the CDA, a serious coalition candidate, after Omtzigt's departure because of his leaked, highly critical note.

"After such a weekend, I first work on the game. A lot has to be done within the CDA," said Hoekstra before going to his appointment with informateur Mariëtte Hamer. He didn't seem eager for the calls, but canceling isn't an option. "If Hamer invites me, I'll come."

Hoekstra especially wanted to radiate that he is doing everything he can to keep the party together and that Omtzigt does not have to leave at all as far as he is concerned. Interim CDA chairman Marnix van Rij, CDA minister and 'extraordinary advisor' to the party board Ank Bijleveld and Hoekstra themselves say they have done everything they can to keep Omtzigt with the party.

"I would also love to see him (Omtzigt, ed.) come back. But he has made a different decision," said Hoekstra.

Omtzigt himself is at home overworked. He occasionally makes himself heard publicly and that only happens via Twitter. The CDA is asking to leave him alone so that he can recover. It is known that Omtzigt regularly contacts journalists and fellow politicians.

Omtzigt lacks ideas at the CDA

Omtzigt's note, which he wrote for the committee investigating the election defeat, is full of strong criticism of the CDA. Omtzigt himself speaks of "my sharp vision".

It states how, in his eyes, he is constantly being opposed within the party. This happened, for example, during the elections for the party leadership, which he only just lost to Hugo de Jonge. Omtzigt still questions that result.

But he mainly does this in the allowance affair, where he keeps asking for information that is provided too late or sometimes not at all by the outgoing cabinet. Omtzigt calls that "painful". At the same time, aggrieved parents are getting more and more trapped.

The disappointment is dripping. Omtzigt feels undervalued if the finance portfolio is taken from him, he is not invited to the ministerial meeting and if he does not become a party leader if De Jonge withdraws and the party board appoints Hoekstra as the new leader. That position was promised to Omtzigt, he claims. "Clearly there is a preconceived plan and I don't fit into it."

Omtzigt's biggest accusation is perhaps that, in his opinion, the CDA has no ideas and has lost its connection with civil society.

Internal problems at the party overshadow everything

Meanwhile, the formation continues. According to PvdA leader Ploumen, she had a good conversation with Hoekstra about the housing market, a ban on profit distribution in health care and about reintroducing the basic grant for students. These are all topics where PvdA and CDA can find each other. The differences have also been discussed, Ploumen said.

Normally, all the attention in the formation would be on this, but the past few weeks revolved around the question of whether CDA and VVD can and want to accept that PvdA and GroenLinks join the negotiations.

The two left-wing parties are not both needed for a majority, but they do not want to step into any coalition without each other. Hoekstra and VVD leader Mark Rutte explicitly mention the ChristenUnie to ask for it as the fourth party, but Segers has already put himself at the back of the row several times as a coalition option. Even a minority cabinet, which no one has a preference for, should be examined earlier as far as the ChristenUnie leader is concerned.

But the internal problems of the Christian Democrats currently overshadow everything. One of the questions now is how stable the CDA is, but Ploumen did not want to say anything about that after her conversation with Hoekstra and Hamer. The problems were discussed, but that only concerned the statement "that it is a difficult time for the CDA".

Hoekstra continues where he left off last weekend: talking to disappointed and worried CDA members, directors and MPs.


Link in Dutch

In short, the CDA - Christen Democrats - are imploding and need to focus on internal affairs, but is 'needed' for the VVD to form a government because the VVD doesn't want to govern with all leftish parties, just as D'66 doesn't want all rigtish parties. So still a stalemate there. And Rutte hasn't really regovered from the "functie elders" quote. So still a Gregorian Knot to unravel, not an obvious solution is there, so this might take a while.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 14625
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Election time: the Dutch version

Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:18 pm

Now there is also the Israeli coalition to keep us entertained.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 12528
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Election time: the Dutch version

Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:44 pm

Aesma wrote:
Now there is also the Israeli coalition to keep us entertained.


So the question is, will there be first a Dutch coalition or will there be the inevitable fall of this rainbow coalition in Israel? Any bets?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 12528
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Election time: the Dutch version

Thu Aug 19, 2021 7:58 pm

Small update. So Rutte (VVD) and Kaag (D'66) wrote a framework for a potential agreement. Still kind of a stalemate:

VVD / D'66 / CDA seems to be quite sure to be in the next coalition, but that is not enough to have the majority in parliament.

There are two possibilities:
- Christen Unie (CU), current junior partner
- Combination of GroenLinks and PVDA (Labour)

Now, this is still the problem:
VVD doesn't want to have two leftish parties (GroenLinks / PVDA)
D'66 doesn't want to have CU
GroenLinks and PVDA don't want to be in a new Kabinet without each other.

So there you have the stablemate.

link in Dutch

It seems that GroenLinks and PVDA might try to operate as one party for this coalition, but that is also quite delicate for the members of those two parties, as one could imagine. So that will break the stalemate and VVD / D'66 / CDA with GL/PVDA will start negotiations. I guess our politicians might not want to break the record for longest formation just yet. We'll see if that will work out or not.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Dieuwer
Posts: 2803
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:27 pm

Re: Election time: the Dutch version

Thu Aug 19, 2021 8:24 pm

No stalemate. Rule as a minority government and for each subject of discussion, find an ad-hoc majority in the Tweede Kamer.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 12528
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Election time: the Dutch version

Fri Aug 20, 2021 6:47 am

a minority government is not yet on the table, but possible.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 14625
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Election time: the Dutch version

Fri Aug 20, 2021 7:15 am

Dutchy wrote:
GroenLinks and PVDA don't want to be in a new Kabinet without each other.


You have to laugh at that one. PR leads to smaller smaller parties with less and less difference between some of them, to the point now 2 parties are negotiating as one ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 12528
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Election time: the Dutch version

Fri Aug 20, 2021 7:33 am

Aesma wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
GroenLinks and PVDA don't want to be in a new Kabinet without each other.


You have to laugh at that one. PR leads to smaller smaller parties with less and less difference between some of them, to the point now 2 parties are negotiating as one ?


Why laugh about this? Happened a number of times. GroenLinks and CDA are a result of a merger. GroenLinks is a merger between PPR, PSP, EVP and CPN. CDA is a merger between gereformeerde Anti-Revolutionaire Partij (ARP), Nederlands Hervormde Christelijk-Historische Unie (CHU) and Katholieke Volkspartij (KVP).

And parties split-up: PVV (Geert Wilders) secede from the VVD.

Wybren van Haga was a member of Parliament for the VVD, he secede - to put it quite friendly - and later joined the FvD, he seceded with a few members of the FvD and now has begun the BVNL. Denk is a relatively new party that was founded by two PVDA members of parlaiment.

All in all quite a dynamic political field. ;)
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Dieuwer
Posts: 2803
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:27 pm

Re: Election time: the Dutch version

Fri Aug 20, 2021 2:32 pm

I say the more parties, the more democratic. It also forces politicians to compromise and find each other in the middle. Less chance at graft and corruption too.
With a two-party system, there is too much gridlock, partisanship and mudslinging going on. Not to mention it is easier for wealthy donors to buy influence.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 14625
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Election time: the Dutch version

Fri Aug 20, 2021 7:30 pm

If you want to govern together or not at all, then you're one party, not two. I have no problem with parties merging or splitting, it's this "in-between" that's funny.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 12528
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Election time: the Dutch version

Sun Aug 22, 2021 11:17 am

Aesma wrote:
If you want to govern together or not at all, then you're one party, not two. I have no problem with parties merging or splitting, it's this "in-between" that's funny.


It's just like being in the beginning of a relationship, those insecure moments of not knowing :lol:
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
petertenthije
Posts: 4277
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2001 10:00 pm

Re: Election time: the Dutch version

Sun Aug 22, 2021 11:37 am

Dieuwer wrote:
I say the more parties, the more democratic.

To a point though.

I think it is very good that anyone can start a party and run for government.

But I think that if your party does not get enough votes for, say, five seats, that the votes should be proportionally divided over the other parties. The one- and two-seat parties that only care for one or two specific issues or demographics are a real bottleneck to effective government.

And that’s not even mentioning the folks for whom it is only a money grab, though it is less common at the national level, it does happen locally and regionally. Several wethouders have stayed in office just long enough to qualify for wachtgeld. For instance Michiel Wiersinga (3 months, Epe), Rein Dupont (2 months, Meerssen).
The first thing to remember is always treat your kite like you treat your woman.
Get inside her five times a day and take her to heaven and back!
Lord Flashheart, 1989
 
Dieuwer
Posts: 2803
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:27 pm

Re: Election time: the Dutch version

Sun Aug 22, 2021 7:40 pm

petertenthije wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
I say the more parties, the more democratic.

To a point though.

I think it is very good that anyone can start a party and run for government.

But I think that if your party does not get enough votes for, say, five seats, that the votes should be proportionally divided over the other parties. The one- and two-seat parties that only care for one or two specific issues or demographics are a real bottleneck to effective government.

And that’s not even mentioning the folks for whom it is only a money grab, though it is less common at the national level, it does happen locally and regionally. Several wethouders have stayed in office just long enough to qualify for wachtgeld. For instance Michiel Wiersinga (3 months, Epe), Rein Dupont (2 months, Meerssen).


Yes, a "kiesdrempel" of 3 to 5 seats would not be a bad idea.
Also, local and national politicians should go through a background check to see if they have criminal or fraudulent tendencies.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 12528
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Election time: the Dutch version

Wed Sep 01, 2021 10:02 am

So a small update: back to square one.

No party really made any moves to bring a new Cabinet closer. So back to square one. A majority government seems less and less likely, so they might opt for a minority government instead.

But the political game remains as interesting as ever. A minority government isn't a given. VVD wants to keep the CDA close and in government, probably for electorial purposes. There is quite some movement between VVD and CDA from an electoral perspective. But D'66 does want a more progressive policy and doesn't want to include the CDA in a minority government. So even with a minority government, there seems to be a stalemate.

So 5 months after the election, still no government and still no government insight. When will the Dutch have a new government? Hopefully before years-end, but. I am not sure........

NOS-article in Dutch
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: AABusDrvr, Dieuwer, Dutchy, eastafspot, GDB, Kaanere and 32 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos