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EA CO AS
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Canadian man jailed for “misgendering” child

Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:13 pm

Looks like Jordan Peterson’s prediction about the government eventually prosecuting people for using the “wrong” pronouns was accurate!

https://nypost.com/2021/03/18/man-arres ... violation/

A Canadian man was arrested this week after violating a court order that banned him from speaking publicly about his son’s gender transition.
 
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c933103
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Re: Canadian man jailed for “misgendering” child

Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:02 pm

Certainly it isn't just wrong pronoun
 
art
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Re: Canadian man jailed for “misgendering” child

Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:09 pm

"I am fighting the far left..." - the father.

What is far left about a situation in which a father disputes the altered gender identification of his child?
 
Airontario
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Re: Canadian man jailed for “misgendering” child

Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:24 pm

"according to The Post Millennial." That's all I needed to read to know this story is being blown out of proportion.
 
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moo
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Re: Canadian man jailed for “misgendering” child

Sun Mar 21, 2021 8:35 pm

He was jailed for contempt of court while under a court order restraining him from a number of certain behaviours - and its not been publicly revealed by the court which part of the order he violated.

So, non-story unless someone wants to come up with proof that this guy was jailed for misgendering someone.
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: Canadian man jailed for “misgendering” child

Sun Mar 21, 2021 9:11 pm

moo wrote:
non-story unless someone wants to come up with proof that this guy was jailed for misgendering someone.


Dig deeper:

https://globalnews.ca/news/6399468/bc-g ... nge-court/

(fair-use excerpt)

A B.C. father has been told by the province’s highest court not to stand in the way of his teenage son’s gender transition treatment and to try and better understand gender dysphoria.

The father, whose name is under a publication ban along with his son’s, went to court after learning his child, who was assigned female at birth, was undergoing hormone therapy to transition to a boy.

The boy, now 15, has said he has identified as a boy since he was 11 and began exploring transition treatment since he was 13. The boy’s father first went to court in 2018 after learning of his son’s intentions, arguing no treatment should be provided if he didn’t approve or give permission.

The B.C. Supreme Court sided with the boy in an earlier decision, saying he didn’t need his father’s consent. The father was also served with an injunction that warned any attempt to pressure his son to abandon treatment was a form of family violence.


Accused of "family violence" for trying to change his daughter's mind about transitioning to a male before she's an adult? Told by the court to "better understand" this? Has the world gone mad?
 
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moo
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Re: Canadian man jailed for “misgendering” child

Sun Mar 21, 2021 9:25 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
moo wrote:
non-story unless someone wants to come up with proof that this guy was jailed for misgendering someone.


Dig deeper:

https://globalnews.ca/news/6399468/bc-g ... nge-court/

(fair-use excerpt)

A B.C. father has been told by the province’s highest court not to stand in the way of his teenage son’s gender transition treatment and to try and better understand gender dysphoria.

The father, whose name is under a publication ban along with his son’s, went to court after learning his child, who was assigned female at birth, was undergoing hormone therapy to transition to a boy.

The boy, now 15, has said he has identified as a boy since he was 11 and began exploring transition treatment since he was 13. The boy’s father first went to court in 2018 after learning of his son’s intentions, arguing no treatment should be provided if he didn’t approve or give permission.

The B.C. Supreme Court sided with the boy in an earlier decision, saying he didn’t need his father’s consent. The father was also served with an injunction that warned any attempt to pressure his son to abandon treatment was a form of family violence.


Accused of "family violence" for trying to change his daughter's mind about transitioning to a male before she's an adult? Told by the court to "better understand" this? Has the world gone mad?


I've been digging for a while, theres basically no information on *what* the man was jailed for, other than violating an order which had many parts.

https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/ques ... s-daughter

See both answers and also see the comments to the highest rated answer (which isnt the accepted answer) - there is no clarity here.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Canadian man jailed for “misgendering” child

Sun Mar 21, 2021 10:02 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
moo wrote:
non-story unless someone wants to come up with proof that this guy was jailed for misgendering someone.


Dig deeper:

https://globalnews.ca/news/6399468/bc-g ... nge-court/

(fair-use excerpt)

A B.C. father has been told by the province’s highest court not to stand in the way of his teenage son’s gender transition treatment and to try and better understand gender dysphoria.

The father, whose name is under a publication ban along with his son’s, went to court after learning his child, who was assigned female at birth, was undergoing hormone therapy to transition to a boy.

The boy, now 15, has said he has identified as a boy since he was 11 and began exploring transition treatment since he was 13. The boy’s father first went to court in 2018 after learning of his son’s intentions, arguing no treatment should be provided if he didn’t approve or give permission.

The B.C. Supreme Court sided with the boy in an earlier decision, saying he didn’t need his father’s consent. The father was also served with an injunction that warned any attempt to pressure his son to abandon treatment was a form of family violence.


Accused of "family violence" for trying to change his daughter's mind about transitioning to a male before she's an adult? Told by the court to "better understand" this? Has the world gone mad?


The court likely opined the father’s actions would harm the mental health of the kid. Big whoop-dee-doo. Also we have no clarity on the domestic situation but it sounds like the parents are separated? There are bigger problems in BC, like recent attacks on Asians in the YVR area.

Another issue is the nature of your reaction. Courts have to take the latest scientific standing into account over feelings. You or Dr. Peterson may feel gender dysphoria is silly or not real, but it’s a recognized clinical condition in the DSM-V. If the kid had a verified diagnosis there’s very little to discuss here.
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: Canadian man jailed for “misgendering” child

Sun Mar 21, 2021 10:18 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
The court likely opined the father’s actions would harm the mental health of the kid.


You mean, his speech? Not the manner with which he spoke, but what he said?

Now do you see the issue?
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Canadian man jailed for “misgendering” child

Sun Mar 21, 2021 10:22 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
The court likely opined the father’s actions would harm the mental health of the kid.


You mean, his speech? Not the manner with which he spoke, but what he said?

Now do you see the issue?


It’s not just his opinion - your citation literally says he went to court to stop treatment already initiated. What’s the mother’s position? The advice of the doctor handling the case? Did the father seek a second opinion or simply take his opposition to court? Does the father live with the kid and since when has he not?
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: Canadian man jailed for “misgendering” child

Sun Mar 21, 2021 10:37 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
The court likely opined the father’s actions would harm the mental health of the kid.


You mean, his speech? Not the manner with which he spoke, but what he said?

Now do you see the issue?


It’s not just his opinion - your citation literally says he went to court to stop treatment already initiated. What’s the mother’s position? The advice of the doctor handling the case? Did the father seek a second opinion or simply take his opposition to court? Does the father live with the kid and since when has he not?


He went to court to stop the treatment and was denied. Crazy, in my opinion, but let's move beyond that; the court then served him with an injunction that warned any attempt to pressure his son to abandon treatment was a form of "family violence."

Sorry, but if my teenager is doing something I think is harmful to them or not in their best interest, as a parent I have the right to speak with them about it. The court's decision to infringe upon the father's right to speak with his child about their decision in hopes of changing their mind is not and should never be a criminal offense. Could you imagine a court saying you'd be in contempt if you violated their order to not talk about certain things with your child?
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Canadian man jailed for “misgendering” child

Sun Mar 21, 2021 10:52 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:

You mean, his speech? Not the manner with which he spoke, but what he said?

Now do you see the issue?


It’s not just his opinion - your citation literally says he went to court to stop treatment already initiated. What’s the mother’s position? The advice of the doctor handling the case? Did the father seek a second opinion or simply take his opposition to court? Does the father live with the kid and since when has he not?


He went to court to stop the treatment and was denied. Crazy, in my opinion, but let's move beyond that; the court then served him with an injunction that warned any attempt to pressure his son to abandon treatment was a form of "family violence."

Sorry, but if my teenager is doing something I think is harmful to them or not in their best interest, as a parent I have the right to speak with them about it. The court's decision to infringe upon the father's right to speak with his child about their decision in hopes of changing their mind is not and should never be a criminal offense. Could you imagine a court saying you'd be in contempt if you violated their order to not talk about certain things with your child?


There’s no ‘moving beyond that’ - it’s the principal issue. There is no defined age of consent for medical treatment in Canadian law:

https://www.cps.ca/en/documents/positio ... dolescence

Treatment decisions where parents are separated is a thorny issue in the US as well. It is generally accepted that mutual family decisions are best in determining care, but most jurisdictions establish the primary decision in cases of divorce or separation involve the minor and parent they reside with. Let’s say this kid wanted treatment for their dysphoria and mom they live with assented - what right does dad have to barge in and challenge in court? Obviously that would be potentially harmful to the kid and a court would rule as such. Nuance - it helps.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Canadian man jailed for “misgendering” child

Sun Mar 21, 2021 11:01 pm

Also you were framing this as ‘infringing on the dad’s right’ to speak with their child, but it goes way beyond that. This is a family legal battle that has been going at least two years because the dad opposed what mom and kid agreed to, according to the article below. And the injunction was levied because the dad was violating his own kid’s privacy:

In June 2020, C.D. gave an interview to a YouTube channel, where he’s alleged to have identified health-care providers, revealed information about A.B.’s mental health, medical status or treatments, and gave out information that could reveal C.D., A.B. and the mother’s identity.

https://nationalpost.com/news/b-c-fathe ... eebaf/amp/
 
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moo
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Re: Canadian man jailed for “misgendering” child

Sun Mar 21, 2021 11:19 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
He went to court to stop the treatment and was denied. Crazy, in my opinion, but let's move beyond that; the court then served him with an injunction that warned any attempt to pressure his son to abandon treatment was a form of "family violence."


The court order was massively wider in scope than that. Stop fixating.

Sorry, but if my teenager is doing something I think is harmful to them or not in their best interest, as a parent I have the right to speak with them about it. The court's decision to infringe upon the father's right to speak with his child about their decision in hopes of changing their mind is not and should never be a criminal offense. Could you imagine a court saying you'd be in contempt if you violated their order to not talk about certain things with your child?


You have a right up to the point where a court says you do not. In this case, the court told the father to STFU, amongst other things.

The correct course of action is to challenge the courts order, not ignore it because you don't like it.

Could you imagine a court saying you'd be in contempt if you violated their order to not talk about certain things with your child?


The father was also speaking publicly about the issue - that goes far far beyond the bounds of "talking about certain things with your child". And yes, courts rule all the time that parents cant interact with their children - they can take the form of restraining orders, behaviour orders, exclusion orders, restrictions as part of visiting rights, custody orders etc etc etc.
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: Canadian man jailed for “misgendering” child

Sun Mar 21, 2021 11:20 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Also you were framing this as ‘infringing on the dad’s right’ to speak with their child, but it goes way beyond that. This is a family legal battle that has been going at least two years because the dad opposed what mom and kid agreed to, according to the article below. And the injunction was levied because the dad was violating his own kid’s privacy/


That last part is the one where I think you and I would find common ground; if the court's injunction were solely limited to restricting the father from speaking publicly about the child's medical decisions, I can understand and support that. He can speak as he wishes but not about someone else's private information. If that's ONLY what the arrest is over, then it makes sense.
 
FGITD
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Re: Canadian man jailed for “misgendering” child

Sun Mar 21, 2021 11:34 pm

I think the father forfeited his right to state his opinions when he went public with it.

Bear in mind we're discussing the result of a court case. That should point to how previous "discussions" on the topic went.

I don't think it jumped from sitting down and having a chat to understand everyone's perspective to him being arrested quite that easily.

I'd also be willing to bet that the father will regret this in the future, because this is exactly the route that leads to children going no contact with a parent once they have no legal obligation to them.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Canadian man jailed for “misgendering” child

Sun Mar 21, 2021 11:45 pm

FGITD wrote:
I think the father forfeited his right to state his opinions when he went public with it.

Bear in mind we're discussing the result of a court case. That should point to how previous "discussions" on the topic went.

I don't think it jumped from sitting down and having a chat to understand everyone's perspective to him being arrested quite that easily.

I'd also be willing to bet that the father will regret this in the future, because this is exactly the route that leads to children going no contact with a parent once they have no legal obligation to them.


Couldn’t agree more. Even if dad feels he’a in the right here - defying court orders and blowing up a lack of understanding of his kid’s life is going to hurt him in the end. It sounds like the mom is the supportive parent.
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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Re: Canadian man jailed for “misgendering” child

Mon Mar 22, 2021 2:57 am

EA CO AS wrote:

Sorry, but if my teenager is doing something I think is harmful to them or not in their best interest, as a parent I have the right to speak with them about it.


False. Simply being a parent does not confer competency, especially in areas as complex as these. If your actions are materially harmful to a child, the court is within their rights to employ whatever sanctioning they feel necessary.

moo wrote:
And yes, courts rule all the time that parents cant interact with their children - they can take the form of restraining orders, behaviour orders, exclusion orders, restrictions as part of visiting rights, custody orders etc etc etc.


Right. What can and cannot be discussed with a minor is very often outlined and well defined. Jail time is a very real end to violations, as many custodial and non-custodial parents have found out the hard way.

Aaron747 wrote:
Also you were framing this as ‘infringing on the dad’s right’ to speak with their child, but it goes way beyond that. This is a family legal battle that has been going at least two years because the dad opposed what mom and kid agreed to, according to the article below. And the injunction was levied because the dad was violating his own kid’s privacy:


Indeed. These violations are often headlined/framed in a way as to appear capricious, but are almost universally the result of repeated and intentional violations. My former wife loves to tell her friends the story of how I had her jailed for discussing child support with our kid.

We conveniently disregard the reality of there having been a three year history of this, the effect this had on our kid as documented from her therapist, multiple warnings —and fines— from our judge, a prior and progressive escalation of sanctions, and the having been given the option to cease and desist in lieu of jail time at her Contempt Hearing.

People in this guy's posituation usually have had a multitude of opportunities to avoid doing time over it. I suspect that is almost certainly the case here.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Canadian man jailed for “misgendering” child

Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:37 am

I think it's a very tricky situation. I have no kids yet but if I had one that wanted to change sex I would hope he/she would come to that decision at 18 or later so it's not up to me... On the other hand it might be better to do it younger for "best results".

At the end of the day it's something I fundamentally don't understand. Not just because I feel fine being my gender/sex, but because we live in free, advanced societies, so you can feel whatever, dress how you like and be called anything you like, you don't actually need to do anything to your body to get that. If it was really possible to become the other sex physically, why not, but it's not really the case.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Canadian man jailed for “misgendering” child

Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:14 am

Aaron747 wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
The court likely opined the father’s actions would harm the mental health of the kid.


You mean, his speech? Not the manner with which he spoke, but what he said?

Now do you see the issue?


It’s not just his opinion - your citation literally says he went to court to stop treatment already initiated. What’s the mother’s position? The advice of the doctor handling the case? Did the father seek a second opinion or simply take his opposition to court? Does the father live with the kid and since when has he not?


The question really needs to be asked, why are we starting gender reassignment on children, how come someone who isn't old enough to vote, drink, drive, join the military is considered mature enough to make a life changing decision like this?
 
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moo
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Re: Canadian man jailed for “misgendering” child

Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:45 am

Kiwirob wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:

You mean, his speech? Not the manner with which he spoke, but what he said?

Now do you see the issue?


It’s not just his opinion - your citation literally says he went to court to stop treatment already initiated. What’s the mother’s position? The advice of the doctor handling the case? Did the father seek a second opinion or simply take his opposition to court? Does the father live with the kid and since when has he not?


The question really needs to be asked, why are we starting gender reassignment on children, how come someone who isn't old enough to vote, drink, drive, join the military is considered mature enough to make a life changing decision like this?


There are many reasons to do so, and doing it while the person is still physically and mentally developing is the best time to do it if its necessary.

You dont know the ins and outs of each individual case, so dont even start saying its wrong.
 
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seb146
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Re: Canadian man jailed for “misgendering” child

Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:06 am

EA CO AS wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
The court likely opined the father’s actions would harm the mental health of the kid.


You mean, his speech? Not the manner with which he spoke, but what he said?

Now do you see the issue?


"No son of mine..." or "no daughter of mine..." has a lot of terrible, horrible outcomes. One or both parents controlling every detail of their child's life has a lot of terrible, horrible outcomes. Parents forcing their child to live EXACTLY down to the letter has a lot of terrible, horrible outcomes. "Do what I say or else..." ends up with a terrible outcome. Either the kid leaves and terrible things happen or they turn into an adult that do terrible things.

But, hate big gub'mint because big gub'mint is the problem and not parents who don't give a flip about their kids, just themselves.
 
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c933103
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Re: Canadian man jailed for “misgendering” child

Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:23 am

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:

Sorry, but if my teenager is doing something I think is harmful to them or not in their best interest, as a parent I have the right to speak with them about it.


False. Simply being a parent does not confer competency, especially in areas as complex as these. If your actions are materially harmful to a child, the court is within their rights to employ whatever sanctioning they feel necessary.

A question would then be who is more competent. While intuitive would say professional doctors, some are also suspicious about the potential conflict of interest, since doctors would receive more revenue for approving and then conducting such procedure. Courts are also unlikely to be best place due to judges aren't mental experts. But then parents also have the problem you mentioned.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Canadian man jailed for “misgendering” child

Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:28 am

moo wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

It’s not just his opinion - your citation literally says he went to court to stop treatment already initiated. What’s the mother’s position? The advice of the doctor handling the case? Did the father seek a second opinion or simply take his opposition to court? Does the father live with the kid and since when has he not?


The question really needs to be asked, why are we starting gender reassignment on children, how come someone who isn't old enough to vote, drink, drive, join the military is considered mature enough to make a life changing decision like this?


There are many reasons to do so, and doing it while the person is still physically and mentally developing is the best time to do it if its necessary.

You dont know the ins and outs of each individual case, so dont even start saying its wrong.


It is wrong, most western countries won't even let you get a tattoo if you're under 16 and you're trying to say a preteen should be able to decide on transitioning, how can you argue that. You talk of mental development, the human brain isn't fully developed until 25 years of age..
 
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moo
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Re: Canadian man jailed for “misgendering” child

Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:38 am

Kiwirob wrote:
moo wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

The question really needs to be asked, why are we starting gender reassignment on children, how come someone who isn't old enough to vote, drink, drive, join the military is considered mature enough to make a life changing decision like this?


There are many reasons to do so, and doing it while the person is still physically and mentally developing is the best time to do it if its necessary.

You dont know the ins and outs of each individual case, so dont even start saying its wrong.


It is wrong, most western countries won't even let you get a tattoo if you're under 16 and you're trying to say a preteen should be able to decide on transitioning, how can you argue that. You talk of mental development, the human brain isn't fully developed until 25 years of age..


Im glad we dont all have to live by your rigid “morals”, because apparently you dont understand that there are all sorts of valid reasons for a transition to happen early, such as intersex or undeveloped bodies.

Your approach would ruin more lives than you think it would “save”.
 
art
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Re: Canadian man jailed for “misgendering” child

Mon Mar 22, 2021 8:45 am

Unfortunately there are cases of people in their early years who wish to change their gender, have it changed, then at a later time decide they made a mistake. These people leave the professionals who can actually arrange or refuse the change in a terrible position: to try to alleviate present mental suffering with the danger of causing future mental suffering or to try to avoid possible future mental suffering with the danger/certainty of prolonging present mental suffering.

Not an easy one to me.
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: Canadian man jailed for “misgendering” child

Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:05 am

moo wrote:
Your approach would ruin more lives than you think it would “save”.

That's debatable. Transitioning isn't just a case of taking a few pills and everything is sorted. There are lifelong health problems -- both physical and mental -- associated with transitioning. Is an 11 or 15-year-old mature enough to understand the lifelong implications?
 
art
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Re: Canadian man jailed for “misgendering” child

Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:11 am

Braybuddy wrote:
Is an 11 or 15-year-old mature enough to understand the lifelong implications?


No IMO.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Canadian man jailed for “misgendering” child

Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:20 am

Kiwirob wrote:
The question really needs to be asked, why are we starting gender reassignment on children, how come someone who isn't old enough to vote, drink, drive, join the military is considered mature enough to make a life changing decision like this?


The age at which one can drive, vote, drink, join the military, have sex, etc. are all just arbitrary numbers decided by governments (whether national or local). There's no magic that happens at those ages and for every one that isn't mature enough at the proscribed age, there's one that's more than ready before that age.

You don't know anything about the child involved, but one would assume that all the right medical professionals and necessary counselling has been involved (given it's Canada we're talking about). It's very different from a 13yo getting a tattoo from a dodgy backstreet shop.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Canadian man jailed for “misgendering” child

Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:27 am

Braybuddy wrote:
moo wrote:
Your approach would ruin more lives than you think it would “save”.

That's debatable. Transitioning isn't just a case of taking a few pills and everything is sorted. There are lifelong health problems -- both physical and mental -- associated with transitioning. Is an 11 or 15-year-old mature enough to understand the lifelong implications?


The only problem I have is with folks making assumptions based on age. Any sizable group of, say, 15yos will exhibit a very wide range of maturity levels and there would also be significant differences between a group of boys and girls.

One would also have to assume that this decision is not the child's alone, but that a whole team of doctors and counsellors have been involved (I believe this is a reasonable assumption given we're talking about Canada here).
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Canadian man jailed for “misgendering” child

Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:50 am

Kiwirob wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:

You mean, his speech? Not the manner with which he spoke, but what he said?

Now do you see the issue?


It’s not just his opinion - your citation literally says he went to court to stop treatment already initiated. What’s the mother’s position? The advice of the doctor handling the case? Did the father seek a second opinion or simply take his opposition to court? Does the father live with the kid and since when has he not?


The question really needs to be asked, why are we starting gender reassignment on children, how come someone who isn't old enough to vote, drink, drive, join the military is considered mature enough to make a life changing decision like this?


At age 15 I could legally drink, and legally drive and regularly did both at that age (not together) and I live in a western democracy.

Fred
 
tu204
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Re: Canadian man jailed for “misgendering” child

Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:24 pm

And some people still ask why I immigrated from Canada...
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Canadian man jailed for “misgendering” child

Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:31 pm

Braybuddy wrote:
moo wrote:
Your approach would ruin more lives than you think it would “save”.

That's debatable. Transitioning isn't just a case of taking a few pills and everything is sorted. There are lifelong health problems -- both physical and mental -- associated with transitioning. Is an 11 or 15-year-old mature enough to understand the lifelong implications?


Isn’t that question best left to a combination of parents and the PsyDs/MDs doing the evaluation?

The medical literature makes pretty clear that due to variance in development and maturity amongst adolescents these matters are best handled on a case-by-case basis. It’s not for us to decide by hasty generalization.
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: Canadian man jailed for “misgendering” child

Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:08 pm

scbriml wrote:
The only problem I have is with folks making assumptions based on age. Any sizable group of, say, 15yos will exhibit a very wide range of maturity levels and there would also be significant differences between a group of boys and girls.

One would also have to assume that this decision is not the child's alone, but that a whole team of doctors and counsellors have been involved (I believe this is a reasonable assumption given we're talking about Canada here).

Seems it's not as simple as that:
https://news.sky.com/story/nhs-over-dia ... n-11875624

Aaron747 wrote:
Isn’t that question best left to a combination of parents and the PsyDs/MDs doing the evaluation?

The medical literature makes pretty clear that due to variance in development and maturity amongst adolescents these matters are best handled on a case-by-case basis. It’s not for us to decide by hasty generalization.

See above. It's doesn't seem to be cut-and-dried by a long shot:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/202 ... noses-soar

You may need to register to read, but here's a fair-use excerpt, which I think makes for disturbing reading (and The Guardian is a left-leaning liberal newspaper):

In the autumn of 2018, the Social Democrat-led government, under pressure from the gay, lesbian and transgender group RFSL, proposed a new law which would reduce the minimum age for sex reassignment medical care from 18 to 15, remove all need for parental consent, and allow children as young as 12 to change their legal gender.

Then in March last year, the backlash started. Christopher Gillberg, a psychiatrist at Gothenburg’s Sahlgrenska Academy, wrote an article in the Svenska Dagbladet newspaper warning that hormone treatment and surgery on children was “a big experiment” which risked becoming one of the country’s worst medical scandals.

In April, Uppdrag Granskning, an investigative TV programme, followed up with a documentary profiling a former trans man, Sametti, who regretted her irreversible treatment.

In October, the programme turned its fire on the team at Stockholm’s Karolinska University hospital, which specialises in treating minors with gender dysphoria. The unit has been criticised for carrying out double mastectomies on children as young as 14, and accused of rushing through treatment and failing to consider adequately whether patients’ other psychiatric or developmental issues might better explain their unhappiness with their bodies. The Karolinska disputed the claim, saying it carefully assessed each case.

At the same time, Filter magazine profiled the case of Jennifer Ring, a 32-year-old trans woman who hanged herself four years after her surgery. An expert on psychosis who was shown her medical journal by her father, Avi Ring, was quoted as saying that she had shown clear signs of psychosis at the time she first sought treatment for gender dysphoria.

Indeed, the first clinic she approached refused to treat her, citing signs of schizotypal symptoms and lack of a history of gender dysphoria. But the team at Karolinska went ahead. “Karolinska don’t stop anyone; virtually 100% get sex reassignment,” says Ring.
 
alfa164
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Re: Canadian man jailed for “misgendering” child

Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:13 pm

Braybuddy wrote:
Indeed, the first clinic she approached refused to treat her, citing signs of schizotypal symptoms and lack of a history of gender dysphoria. But the team at Karolinska went ahead. “Karolinska don’t stop anyone; virtually 100% get sex reassignment,” says Ring.
[/i]


You own source points out she had the problems before her transition, not that it was caused by her gender change. And she had her surgery at the age of 28; how are you trying to use this to argue that the child in question should not be allowed to make the choice for themself?


Aaron747 wrote:
Isn’t that question best left to a combination of parents and the PsyDs/MDs doing the evaluation? The medical literature makes pretty clear that due to variance in development and maturity amongst adolescents these matters are best handled on a case-by-case basis. It’s not for us to decide by hasty generalization.


:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: . But so many people - including those here - are more than willing to inflict their prejudices, preconceived notions, and dogmas on a youngster they know nothing about...
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Canadian man jailed for “misgendering” child

Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:19 pm

Braybuddy wrote:
scbriml wrote:
The only problem I have is with folks making assumptions based on age. Any sizable group of, say, 15yos will exhibit a very wide range of maturity levels and there would also be significant differences between a group of boys and girls.

One would also have to assume that this decision is not the child's alone, but that a whole team of doctors and counsellors have been involved (I believe this is a reasonable assumption given we're talking about Canada here).

Seems it's not as simple as that:
https://news.sky.com/story/nhs-over-dia ... n-11875624

Aaron747 wrote:
Isn’t that question best left to a combination of parents and the PsyDs/MDs doing the evaluation?

The medical literature makes pretty clear that due to variance in development and maturity amongst adolescents these matters are best handled on a case-by-case basis. It’s not for us to decide by hasty generalization.

See above. It's doesn't seem to be cut-and-dried by a long shot:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/202 ... noses-soar

You may need to register to read, but here's a fair-use excerpt, which I think makes for disturbing reading (and The Guardian is a left-leaning liberal newspaper):

In the autumn of 2018, the Social Democrat-led government, under pressure from the gay, lesbian and transgender group RFSL, proposed a new law which would reduce the minimum age for sex reassignment medical care from 18 to 15, remove all need for parental consent, and allow children as young as 12 to change their legal gender.

Then in March last year, the backlash started. Christopher Gillberg, a psychiatrist at Gothenburg’s Sahlgrenska Academy, wrote an article in the Svenska Dagbladet newspaper warning that hormone treatment and surgery on children was “a big experiment” which risked becoming one of the country’s worst medical scandals.

In April, Uppdrag Granskning, an investigative TV programme, followed up with a documentary profiling a former trans man, Sametti, who regretted her irreversible treatment.

In October, the programme turned its fire on the team at Stockholm’s Karolinska University hospital, which specialises in treating minors with gender dysphoria. The unit has been criticised for carrying out double mastectomies on children as young as 14, and accused of rushing through treatment and failing to consider adequately whether patients’ other psychiatric or developmental issues might better explain their unhappiness with their bodies. The Karolinska disputed the claim, saying it carefully assessed each case.

At the same time, Filter magazine profiled the case of Jennifer Ring, a 32-year-old trans woman who hanged herself four years after her surgery. An expert on psychosis who was shown her medical journal by her father, Avi Ring, was quoted as saying that she had shown clear signs of psychosis at the time she first sought treatment for gender dysphoria.

Indeed, the first clinic she approached refused to treat her, citing signs of schizotypal symptoms and lack of a history of gender dysphoria. But the team at Karolinska went ahead. “Karolinska don’t stop anyone; virtually 100% get sex reassignment,” says Ring.


Okay, but this story was about Canada, not Sweden. I don’t know what Sweden’s guidelines are, but Canadian practitioners clearly handle things on the aforementioned case-by-case basis.

https://www.cps.ca/en/documents/positio ... dolescence
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Canadian man jailed for “misgendering” child

Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:30 pm

moo wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
moo wrote:

There are many reasons to do so, and doing it while the person is still physically and mentally developing is the best time to do it if its necessary.

You dont know the ins and outs of each individual case, so dont even start saying its wrong.


It is wrong, most western countries won't even let you get a tattoo if you're under 16 and you're trying to say a preteen should be able to decide on transitioning, how can you argue that. You talk of mental development, the human brain isn't fully developed until 25 years of age..


Im glad we dont all have to live by your rigid “morals”, because apparently you dont understand that there are all sorts of valid reasons for a transition to happen early, such as intersex or undeveloped bodies.

Your approach would ruin more lives than you think it would “save”.


Intersex and transgender aren’t the same issue at all. You’re an intelligent person, you should know that.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Canadian man jailed for “misgendering” child

Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:33 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
moo wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

It is wrong, most western countries won't even let you get a tattoo if you're under 16 and you're trying to say a preteen should be able to decide on transitioning, how can you argue that. You talk of mental development, the human brain isn't fully developed until 25 years of age..


Im glad we dont all have to live by your rigid “morals”, because apparently you dont understand that there are all sorts of valid reasons for a transition to happen early, such as intersex or undeveloped bodies.

Your approach would ruin more lives than you think it would “save”.


Intersex and transgender aren’t the same issue at all. You’re an intelligent person, you should know that.


True enough. And dysmorphia is a serious enough and well-studied mental condition that it’s in the DSM-V. Perhaps you should acknowledge that, leave things to the professionals, and not dictate by fiat based on your own emotions.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Canadian man jailed for “misgendering” child

Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:34 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

It’s not just his opinion - your citation literally says he went to court to stop treatment already initiated. What’s the mother’s position? The advice of the doctor handling the case? Did the father seek a second opinion or simply take his opposition to court? Does the father live with the kid and since when has he not?


The question really needs to be asked, why are we starting gender reassignment on children, how come someone who isn't old enough to vote, drink, drive, join the military is considered mature enough to make a life changing decision like this?


At age 15 I could legally drink, and legally drive and regularly did both at that age (not together) and I live in a western democracy.

Fred


Which western democracy is that? Not in Europe, no European country allows you to drink under 16, not Australia, NZ or Canada either.
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: Canadian man jailed for “misgendering” child

Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:55 pm

alfa164 wrote:
You own source points out she had the problems before her transition, not that it was caused by her gender change. And she had her surgery at the age of 28; how are you trying to use this to argue that the child in question should not be allowed to make the choice for themself?

An expert on psychosis who was shown her medical journal by her father, Avi Ring, was quoted as saying that she had shown clear signs of psychosis at the time she first sought treatment for gender dysphoria.
Clearly there was more to her diagnosis than just gender dysphoria. Surely that should have been a red flag? Either way it doesn't matter, she was an adult who made her own decisions so would -- or should -- have known what she was doing. I have no problem with adults doing whatever they want to themselves.

Aaron747 wrote:
:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: . But so many people - including those here - are more than willing to inflict their prejudices, preconceived notions, and dogmas on a youngster they know nothing about...

That holds true for both sides. I have known many transitioners over the years (including a young [early 20s] trans man in my extended family who seems quite well-adjusted and happy in his decision). Just because you think something needs more research and debate doesn't make you prejudiced.
 
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moo
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Re: Canadian man jailed for “misgendering” child

Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:52 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
moo wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

It is wrong, most western countries won't even let you get a tattoo if you're under 16 and you're trying to say a preteen should be able to decide on transitioning, how can you argue that. You talk of mental development, the human brain isn't fully developed until 25 years of age..


Im glad we dont all have to live by your rigid “morals”, because apparently you dont understand that there are all sorts of valid reasons for a transition to happen early, such as intersex or undeveloped bodies.

Your approach would ruin more lives than you think it would “save”.


Intersex and transgender aren’t the same issue at all. You’re an intelligent person, you should know that.


Oh, *now* you are backing away from your arguments on technicalities, eh?

Rob, I used to have respect for you, but your recent comments on a few topics make me think you arent someone worth respecting any more. I love your country, and thankfully most people here have better views than you do.
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 4185
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

Re: Canadian man jailed for “misgendering” child

Mon Mar 22, 2021 8:06 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

The question really needs to be asked, why are we starting gender reassignment on children, how come someone who isn't old enough to vote, drink, drive, join the military is considered mature enough to make a life changing decision like this?


At age 15 I could legally drink, and legally drive and regularly did both at that age (not together) and I live in a western democracy.

Fred


Which western democracy is that? Not in Europe, no European country allows you to drink under 16, not Australia, NZ or Canada either.

United Kingdom (England to be precise) drinking can be done in private premises from age 5.

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
wirkey
Posts: 19
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Re: Canadian man jailed for “misgendering” child

Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:16 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

The question really needs to be asked, why are we starting gender reassignment on children, how come someone who isn't old enough to vote, drink, drive, join the military is considered mature enough to make a life changing decision like this?


At age 15 I could legally drink, and legally drive and regularly did both at that age (not together) and I live in a western democracy.

Fred


Which western democracy is that? Not in Europe, no European country allows you to drink under 16, not Australia, NZ or Canada either.


That's not true. In Germany there is no law that forbids anyone under the age of 16 to drink alcohol in private. You are only prohibited to purchase alcohol or consume in public.

In England and Wales it is prohibited to give alcohol to kids under 5, unless it's medicine.
 
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OA412
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Re: Canadian man jailed for “misgendering” child

Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:26 pm

There isn't much out there corroborating OP version of events that the man was arrested for misgendering his child.

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