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zakuivcustom
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 3:28 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
It sounds like the shooter was of Middle Eastern descent. It doesn't say whether he was a citizen, resident alien or foreign citizen.
https://nypost.com/2021/03/23/police-id ... NYPTwitter


In the presser just now the Boulder PD said he’s a citizen and has lived in the US most of his life.


And if this is indeed Islamic terrorism, truth is for all the talk about "screening of immigrant" this is just another case where the terrorist is born right in US soil.

(Playing a bit politics)But perhaps now that the dude sounds very Middle Eastern, that Fox News would finally put the shooting on the front page instead of talking about how Biden tripped?

EDIT:
https://news.yahoo.com/cops-identify-su ... 41598.html

According to the shooter's brother, it sounds like the shooter definitely has some mental issue. So perhaps still too early to draw a conclusion.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 3:49 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
It sounds like the shooter was of Middle Eastern descent. It doesn't say whether he was a citizen, resident alien or foreign citizen.
https://nypost.com/2021/03/23/police-id ... NYPTwitter


Well that changes things a bit. I take it a terrorism investigation is ongoing, because of the foreign component. The narrative of this being some 'random shooting' might be going down.


There is no evidence of any 'foreign component'. The Boulder PD said he has been living in the US most of his life. Stop making crap up - the investigation is literally under 24 hours old. If there is any contact with any foreign entities, the FBI will be on top of his past communications lickety split, and Trump fans will suddenly like the FBI again. I say again - US citizens from anywhere else are not 'foreign'.

From the linked Yahoo article above, if his brother's description is accurate, this shooter was an untreated paranoid schizophrenic. Since he survived, we'll definitely find out.
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art
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 3:52 pm

FGITD wrote:
The epitome of “we’ve tried nothing and we’re all out of ideas!”


Sums it up rather well to me.

But... I remember after one of these murderous episodes, large numbers of schoolkids were marching, protesting about being potential victims at their schools. To me it seemed like change was plausible for the first time. What happened to that protest movement?

Thousands of people were killed in the 9/11 attack. The scale of death prompted a big reaction by the US, determined to stop any repetition. What if a bunch of nuts killed hundreds of people at some large gathering? Would that be enough to jolt the government into real action to curb the abilty of people to slaughter others as and when they chose? Or do thousands need to die on the same day before any steps are taken?
Last edited by art on Tue Mar 23, 2021 3:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
mdsh00
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 3:53 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
It sounds like the shooter was of Middle Eastern descent. It doesn't say whether he was a citizen, resident alien or foreign citizen.
https://nypost.com/2021/03/23/police-id ... NYPTwitter


Well that changes things a bit. I take it a terrorism investigation is ongoing, because of the foreign component. The narrative of this being some 'random shooting' might be going down.


So someone with a Middle Eastern name must automatically be a foreign terrorist?
 
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 3:53 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
It sounds like the shooter was of Middle Eastern descent. It doesn't say whether he was a citizen, resident alien or foreign citizen.
https://nypost.com/2021/03/23/police-id ... NYPTwitter


Well that changes things a bit. I take it a terrorism investigation is ongoing, because of the foreign component. The narrative of this being some 'random shooting' might be going down.


There is no evidence of any 'foreign component'. The Boulder PD said he has been living in the US most of his life. Stop making crap up - the investigation is literally under 24 hours old. If there is any contact with any foreign entities, the FBI will be on top of his past communications lickety split, and Trump fans will suddenly like the FBI again.

From the linked Yahoo article above, if his brother's description is accurate, this shooter was an untreated paranoid schizophrenic. Since he survived, we'll definitely find out.


Clearly, being foreign born does add a 'foreign component'. And about the description from his brother, lets allow this investigation to end. It wasn't me who immediately said this is some 'random' shooting in every day America.
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Aesma
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 3:55 pm

Remember the 2017 Las Vegas shooting ? 60 killed, hundreds injured.
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 3:59 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

Well that changes things a bit. I take it a terrorism investigation is ongoing, because of the foreign component. The narrative of this being some 'random shooting' might be going down.


There is no evidence of any 'foreign component'. The Boulder PD said he has been living in the US most of his life. Stop making crap up - the investigation is literally under 24 hours old. If there is any contact with any foreign entities, the FBI will be on top of his past communications lickety split, and Trump fans will suddenly like the FBI again.

From the linked Yahoo article above, if his brother's description is accurate, this shooter was an untreated paranoid schizophrenic. Since he survived, we'll definitely find out.


Clearly, being foreign born does add a 'foreign component'. And about the description from his brother, lets allow this investigation to end. It wasn't me who immediately said this is some 'random' shooting in every day America.


That is not the US government's definition of naturalization - one does not remain 'foreign' after becoming a citizen.
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AirWorthy99
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:03 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

There is no evidence of any 'foreign component'. The Boulder PD said he has been living in the US most of his life. Stop making crap up - the investigation is literally under 24 hours old. If there is any contact with any foreign entities, the FBI will be on top of his past communications lickety split, and Trump fans will suddenly like the FBI again.

From the linked Yahoo article above, if his brother's description is accurate, this shooter was an untreated paranoid schizophrenic. Since he survived, we'll definitely find out.


Clearly, being foreign born does add a 'foreign component'. And about the description from his brother, lets allow this investigation to end. It wasn't me who immediately said this is some 'random' shooting in every day America.


That is not the US government's definition of naturalization - one does not remain 'foreign' after becoming a citizen.


That did not stop the FBI from investigating the Boston Marathon bombers and any foreign terrorism link. At the end there wasn't, but it did not stop them, they were foreign born too, naturalized.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
FGITD
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:07 pm

art wrote:
FGITD wrote:
The epitome of “we’ve tried nothing and we’re all out of ideas!”


Sums it up rather well to me.

But... I remember after one of these murderous episodes, large numbers of schoolkids were marching, protesting about being potential victims at their schools. To me it seemed like change was plausible for the first time. What happened to that protest movement?


The school kids who survived a mass shooting were ridiculed by the right, and personally targeted for abuse by gun nuts. People fortunate enough to have never been on the wrong end of a gun told the kids who’s classmates had been killed that they were wrong and didn’t understand. One of the abusers then got elected to Congress, because the system is broken.

The day 20 children were murdered and the right reacted by saying “but muhhh guns are good!” is the day the US lost the fight against gun violence. To put it into perspective, if those kids were still alive, most of them still wouldn’t be able to drive, and they wouldn’t even be halfway through high school yet. But Joe Moron needs to be able to own an arsenal of weapons, so instead those kids are dead.
 
Reinhardt
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:16 pm

I'm not American, and come from a country where we essentially outlawed gun ownership after multiple mass shootings. You're allowed certain guns for certain usages with very heavy background checks, license conditions and Police checks every year. I've visited the US a lot so understand the culture, but I will never understand how you can carry on like this.

If he is found to be an "untreated paranoid schizophrenic" then you're going to go round and round with these things happening. There wasn't a "good guy with a gun to stop the bad guy" as is almost always the case. It's not the first and won't be the last. As I see it you have a few options:

1/ Accept that this will happen again and do nothing but offer thoughts and prayers
2/ Accept it will happen again and again and choose to accept people will always get access to these types of weapons and put more security at stores, theaters, schools etc have even more visible armed persons. Basically add even more hardware / military style security.

or

3/ Actually get serious about what seems to be a massive problem in the US of people not being able to get access to mental health services. Either a money problem or the way the system is setup.
4/ Decide to try and limit what guns people can get. You can't just limit certain people because they will always get into the hands of those who want them the most and clearly background checks don't work or aren't being properly done. But heaven forbid that might cause problems with a written document written hundreds of years ago with entirely different intentions that it is used for today. Which was by itself and amendment.

or

5/ Do what has happened for the last decades. Thoughts and prayers but actually do nothing and when the next load of body bags come out cry about how your right to a owning a gun is more important than somebody's else right to a life.

I have no idea how you're going to solve this, but if I was a US citizen I would have said enough was enough a long time ago. You can't have no universal access to mental health, no following of existing laws on background checks / gun ownership, and no stricter limits and expect anything to change. But then it seems a big portion of your countrymen either don't care, or care more about their right to carry / own a gun than someone else's life. Just like so many people care more about not wearing a mask whilst in a shop - it doesn't protect you, it protects them.

I love the US and I've met some of the most lovely, kind hearted and generous people anywhere. But my god you can be the most incredibly selfish people on the planet when it comes to money and gun ownership rights.
 
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:20 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
That did not stop the FBI from investigating the Boston Marathon bombers and any foreign terrorism link. At the end there wasn't, but it did not stop them, they were foreign born too, naturalized.


America would be a much better country without all the goddam foreigners ruining the place. Oh wait...
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Revelation
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:27 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
The laws don't work on purpose. There's a reason why the GOP has hundreds of laws in the works to restrict minorities from voting, despite near zero evidence of voter fraud, while the Georgia gunman could buy his gun the same day he murdered 8 people, despite tens of thousands of gun deaths annually. That is on purpose.

Indeed.

I just saw this on Twitter:

Romaine lettuce killed 5 people in 2 years and they pulled it from every grocery store across the country.

18 people were killed this week in shootings and you can get a gun a Dick’s Sporting goods.

Ref: https://twitter.com/Eden_Eats/status/13 ... 9294928901

Sadly, it's a lot more than 16..
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:35 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
It sounds like the shooter was of Middle Eastern descent. It doesn't say whether he was a citizen, resident alien or foreign citizen.
https://nypost.com/2021/03/23/police-id ... NYPTwitter

Well that changes things a bit. I take it a terrorism investigation is ongoing, because of the foreign component. The narrative of this being some 'random shooting' might be going down.

There is no evidence of any 'foreign component'. The Boulder PD said he has been living in the US most of his life. Stop making crap up - the investigation is literally under 24 hours old. If there is any contact with any foreign entities, the FBI will be on top of his past communications lickety split, and Trump fans will suddenly like the FBI again. I say again - US citizens from anywhere else are not 'foreign'.

From the linked Yahoo article above, if his brother's description is accurate, this shooter was an untreated paranoid schizophrenic. Since he survived, we'll definitely find out.

The dog whistles are blaring! Here comes Fido, ready to lap up his plate of decomposing meat by-products. Just add water, it makes its own sauce.
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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Aaron747
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:42 pm

Reinhardt wrote:
I'm not American, and come from a country where we essentially outlawed gun ownership after multiple mass shootings. You're allowed certain guns for certain usages with very heavy background checks, license conditions and Police checks every year. I've visited the US a lot so understand the culture, but I will never understand how you can carry on like this.

If he is found to be an "untreated paranoid schizophrenic" then you're going to go round and round with these things happening. There wasn't a "good guy with a gun to stop the bad guy" as is almost always the case. It's not the first and won't be the last. As I see it you have a few options:

1/ Accept that this will happen again and do nothing but offer thoughts and prayers
2/ Accept it will happen again and again and choose to accept people will always get access to these types of weapons and put more security at stores, theaters, schools etc have even more visible armed persons. Basically add even more hardware / military style security.

or

3/ Actually get serious about what seems to be a massive problem in the US of people not being able to get access to mental health services. Either a money problem or the way the system is setup.
4/ Decide to try and limit what guns people can get. You can't just limit certain people because they will always get into the hands of those who want them the most and clearly background checks don't work or aren't being properly done. But heaven forbid that might cause problems with a written document written hundreds of years ago with entirely different intentions that it is used for today. Which was by itself and amendment.

or

5/ Do what has happened for the last decades. Thoughts and prayers but actually do nothing and when the next load of body bags come out cry about how your right to a owning a gun is more important than somebody's else right to a life.

I have no idea how you're going to solve this, but if I was a US citizen I would have said enough was enough a long time ago. You can't have no universal access to mental health, no following of existing laws on background checks / gun ownership, and no stricter limits and expect anything to change. But then it seems a big portion of your countrymen either don't care, or care more about their right to carry / own a gun than someone else's life. Just like so many people care more about not wearing a mask whilst in a shop - it doesn't protect you, it protects them.

I love the US and I've met some of the most lovely, kind hearted and generous people anywhere. But my god you can be the most incredibly selfish people on the planet when it comes to money and gun ownership rights.


It’s a money problem. Good access to mental health care is only possible with a healthy bank account. Sure, you can go to a county institution, but the doctors there see too many patients and they just put you on medication and then you’re on your own again.

We can’t prioritize access to regular healthcare so it’s no surprise mental care brings up the rear. Pets get better healthcare than people.
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LittleFokker
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 5:11 pm

Revelation wrote:
I just saw this on Twitter:

Romaine lettuce killed 5 people in 2 years and they pulled it from every grocery store across the country.

18 people were killed this week in shootings and you can get a gun a Dick’s Sporting goods.

Ref: https://twitter.com/Eden_Eats/status/13 ... 9294928901

Sadly, it's a lot more than 16..


To be fair, that's an old complaint, Dick's Sporting Goods has dramatically reduced their selling of guns:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/10/business ... index.html
"All human activities are doomed to failure." - Jean Paul Sartre
 
N583JB
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 5:14 pm

Gun control will largely never really happen in this country as long as people are more afraid of being victimized in their homes than they are of being involved in a deadly but rare shooting spree. John Doe isn't worried about getting shot by a lunatic at the grocery store....he is worried about someone breaking into his home in the middle of the night and harming his family, and he owns a firearm for that reason. The old adage still rings true- when seconds count, the police are minutes away.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 5:43 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
Whether it is a mass shooting like in Boulder, or the too many every weekend in Chicago, the amounts of gun murder is a deep cultural problem in the USA. Far too often, the possession and use of a gun is about fear, power and about control of one over others no matter if a robber, a cop or mass murderer. We in the USA can't control who can access guns nor the guns themselves due to our toxic culture and politics.

In the next few days, well will learn of the perverse excuses why the shooter chose to take this action, the background lives of the murder victims, see the site of the store become a shrine with flowers and other items left to memorialize the victims. Then there are those in and near the store who didn't get shot but will suffer lifelong psychological trauma from being close to it, terrorized into hiding or playing dead and escape. Likely the store will be shut down for months for investigations, maybe even permanently shut down.

I currently work with people or who have retired at my time of employment there who were in or around WTC 1 when hit by an airplane. I worked with a woman who's father was killed in a mass shooting event in the early 1990's. I know of someone who caused a death in a gun accident. A distant relative during the 1930's took their life with a gun, their body discovered by one of my uncles. They all have traumas from fear of being trapped in an elevator to this day, the loss of a loved one seeing the blood of the dead.

There is the deep frustration that we cannot deal with the access and power of the guns themselves or properly funded mental health needs due to politician's fears of losing their next election. We glorify gun possession and use, in video games, in our entertainment media. 'If it bleeds, it leads' giving attention to those that kill by guns that may encourage their use. Even during the Pandemic, murder by guns rates have kept up or increased from prior year levels. Marches are useless. Too many on the 'conservative' news media will be more concerned with losing access to guns than of the victims of use of them. I am tired of it. I want it to end. I want the culture to change so one doesn't mean being more worried about being dead from being in school, at a workplace, shopping for groceries, by a F'ed up gunman that from Covid-19.


This is a legitimate viewpoint. I am middle ground on this. I don't have any guns. But, I am hesitant to call for a ban. In a nutshell, when you call for a ban, you entrust your life permanently to the government, forever. But sometimes, governments go bad. Sometimes, a government becomes a criminal organization. It's not rare in history. Maybe we see Germany today as a good example of civil life. But is it really such a good example, over time?


You’ve just had 4 years of bad govt, nobody got out there guns and tried to change it.

Almost every other developed nation has sensible gun control regulations and laws, the thing with developed nations, aside from the last 4 years in the US, when has any govt gone bad or became a criminal organisation??
 
petertenthije
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 5:56 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
It sounds like the shooter was of Middle Eastern descent. It doesn't say whether he was a citizen, resident alien or foreign citizen.
https://nypost.com/2021/03/23/police-id ... NYPTwitter


Well that changes things a bit. I take it a terrorism investigation is ongoing, because of the foreign component. The narrative of this being some 'random shooting' might be going down.

So a mass shooting is only worth discussing if it might involve a foreigner?
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bennett123
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:01 pm

The biggest problem with this 'good guy with a gun' approach is that that if I can walk up the road openly carrying a handgun or M16 is that the interval when this good guy needs to intervene is a few seconds.

Realistically, at least one person is dead before the 'good guy' is able to do anything.
 
FGITD
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:18 pm

bennett123 wrote:
The biggest problem with this 'good guy with a gun' approach is that that if I can walk up the road openly carrying a handgun or M16 is that the interval when this good guy needs to intervene is a few seconds.

Realistically, at least one person is dead before the 'good guy' is able to do anything.


I’m always reminded of Daniel Lewin on 9/11 when this point comes up. The man had very advanced Israeli military training, specifically hostage and anti terror, and even spoke Arabic. Not to say he could've saved the day, but given his background and knowledge it wouldn't be outrageous to think AA11 maybe could've been handed like UA93, perhaps sparing a tower and hundreds of lives. Instead, by bad luck, he was seated directly in front of a hijacker and was the first person stabbed and to die on 9/11.

The savior good guy with the gun is down to nothing more than luck.
 
johns624
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 7:11 pm

So his family knew that he had mental problems. What did they do about it? His brother said that he was "picked on" in high school. That was 4 years ago. Trying to pass the blame, it seems...
 
aeromoe
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:06 pm

ltbewr wrote:
Likely the store will be shut down for months for investigations,

If this is the case I certainly hope King Soopers will be kind enough to donate the short shelf-life lot of perishable goods (milk, etc) to homeless shelters and food banks in the greater metro area.
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extender
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:36 pm

It also took place in a gun-free zone, and the shooter passed a Universal background check of the sort the Democrats want nationally.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:56 pm

johns624 wrote:
So his family knew that he had mental problems. What did they do about it? His brother said that he was "picked on" in high school. That was 4 years ago. Trying to pass the blame, it seems...


And what does his family suppose to do about it? Send him to a mental institution? Oh wait, those doesn't exist anymore. Alternatively, report him to authority? For what? His anti-Trump posts on FB? I have say more vile things about Trump and it's not like I will shoot up a supermarket any time soon.

Oh, and don't give me BS of "extreme vetting" either. Dude immigrate to US with his family in 2002 when he was 3. Syria was also not this much of a shithole back then.

(And if you to go more political BS)Bush Jr, a Republican, was president back then. It was also right after 911, which means Islamophobia is definitely at its peak.

extender wrote:
It also took place in a gun-free zone, and the shooter passed a Universal background check of the sort the Democrats want nationally.


Perhaps we need more stringent "vetting"? Bc the current checks are actually not even that hard to pass.

Mental headcase like him should never be able to get a gun legally, period. And guess what? He did get multiple guns legally.
 
Elkadad313
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:09 pm

art wrote:
So which society is more dangerous - the one in which citizens can defend themselves with guns from people with guns or the one in which people cannot defend themselves with guns from people who cannot have guns?

It would be the one in which FEWER citizens can defend themselves with guns from people with guns who are not supposed to have guns, because current politically correct culture will not/cannot take the steps necessary to remedy this problem.
 
JJJ
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:57 pm

extender wrote:
It also took place in a gun-free zone, and the shooter passed a Universal background check of the sort the Democrats want nationally.


If you pass a background check while having the kind of mental issues this guy has it's a pretty useless one.

If you really want guns in the hands of the right people give gun control measures some actual teeth.
 
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moo
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:01 pm

Elkadad313 wrote:
art wrote:
So which society is more dangerous - the one in which citizens can defend themselves with guns from people with guns or the one in which people cannot defend themselves with guns from people who cannot have guns?

It would be the one in which FEWER citizens can defend themselves with guns from people with guns who are not supposed to have guns, because current politically correct culture will not/cannot take the steps necessary to remedy this problem.


Ok, so explain Boulder, Colorado then.

Man kills 10 people with a weapon that the NRA successfully managed to get back on the shelves just 10 days prior to the shooting, and the shooter purchased the weapon just 6 days prior to the shooting. But at the same time Colorado requires no permit to purchase, no registration, no permit to own etc, so....

Where were the other people with guns, in this state where the AR-15 was now legal again thanks to the NRA *and* already had "shall-issue" concealed carry permits for hand guns? Where were the people fighting back?

Here we have a state where people can own and carry guns and yet we have 10 people dead in a mass shooting. What does it take for the magical "people can defend themselves" argument to actually work? Mandatory gun ownership?
 
B777LRF
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:04 pm

Some American thinks it's fair game to shoot a guy who breaks into their house to steal a TV, and that to have the opportunity to carry out a death sentence is worth the lives of +10K people a year.

I'll just do the logical thing and stay the hell away from that place.
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N583JB
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:32 pm

B777LRF wrote:
Some American thinks it's fair game to shoot a guy who breaks into their house to steal a TV, and that to have the opportunity to carry out a death sentence is worth the lives of +10K people a year.

I'll just do the logical thing and stay the hell away from that place.


If someone breaks into to my house I don't care what their intention is. That is an immediate threat to me and my family and the law gives me the right to defend my castle.
 
extender
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:33 pm

B777LRF wrote:
Some American thinks it's fair game to shoot a guy who breaks into their house to steal a TV, and that to have the opportunity to carry out a death sentence is worth the lives of +10K people a year.

I'll just do the logical thing and stay the hell away from that place.


How would you know that they just want your TV? What about your teenage daughter?
 
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moo
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:42 pm

extender wrote:
B777LRF wrote:
Some American thinks it's fair game to shoot a guy who breaks into their house to steal a TV, and that to have the opportunity to carry out a death sentence is worth the lives of +10K people a year.

I'll just do the logical thing and stay the hell away from that place.


How would you know that they just want your TV? What about your teenage daughter?


You know, you could fix your society to the point where these things don't really happen any more, right?

Home invasions seem to be something that happen (in developed countries) mainly in the US - I've lived in many developed countries and never have home invasions been a thing in the neighbourhood, on the news etc. Sure, we have burglaries, but they are few and far between and almost always happen when the property is empty, and when they occur when the property is occupied they tend to be unarmed and come in the early morning, and then flee when discovered. Someone coming into the property armed with the intention of rape or theft? Not really a thing in most decent societies.

American society seems to be significantly more violent overall than many other western developed societies, so perhaps thats what needs attention rather than giving everyone guns?
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:07 pm

moo wrote:
extender wrote:
B777LRF wrote:
Some American thinks it's fair game to shoot a guy who breaks into their house to steal a TV, and that to have the opportunity to carry out a death sentence is worth the lives of +10K people a year.

I'll just do the logical thing and stay the hell away from that place.


How would you know that they just want your TV? What about your teenage daughter?


You know, you could fix your society to the point where these things don't really happen any more, right?

Home invasions seem to be something that happen (in developed countries) mainly in the US - I've lived in many developed countries and never have home invasions been a thing in the neighbourhood, on the news etc. Sure, we have burglaries, but they are few and far between and almost always happen when the property is empty, and when they occur when the property is occupied they tend to be unarmed and come in the early morning, and then flee when discovered. Someone coming into the property armed with the intention of rape or theft? Not really a thing in most decent societies.

American society seems to be significantly more violent overall than many other western developed societies, so perhaps thats what needs attention rather than giving everyone guns?


Hit. the. nail. on. the. head.

But as has been said on this topic many times, America is too tunnel-visioned and immature as a society to have the hard talk and introspection needed to really address the familial, poverty, and economic issues that generate most violent crime. And FWIW, that work was more easily done in the early 1960s when the population was a little over half the 330+ million now.
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Aaron747
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:15 pm

N583JB wrote:
B777LRF wrote:
Some American thinks it's fair game to shoot a guy who breaks into their house to steal a TV, and that to have the opportunity to carry out a death sentence is worth the lives of +10K people a year.

I'll just do the logical thing and stay the hell away from that place.


If someone breaks into to my house I don't care what their intention is. That is an immediate threat to me and my family and the law gives me the right to defend my castle.


There are ways to ensure perps can’t get to your sleeping area if your neighborhood is that dangerous. Been to quite a few homes in South Africa and I observed a common feature: a heavy multiple lock door blocking access to hallway to bedrooms, and sliding metal gates for windows and sliding doors that anchor to a wall lock to prevent entry. They simply go through a routine at night of buttoning up.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
FGITD
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:07 am

Aaron747 wrote:
moo wrote:
extender wrote:

How would you know that they just want your TV? What about your teenage daughter?


You know, you could fix your society to the point where these things don't really happen any more, right?

Home invasions seem to be something that happen (in developed countries) mainly in the US - I've lived in many developed countries and never have home invasions been a thing in the neighbourhood, on the news etc. Sure, we have burglaries, but they are few and far between and almost always happen when the property is empty, and when they occur when the property is occupied they tend to be unarmed and come in the early morning, and then flee when discovered. Someone coming into the property armed with the intention of rape or theft? Not really a thing in most decent societies.

American society seems to be significantly more violent overall than many other western developed societies, so perhaps thats what needs attention rather than giving everyone guns?


Hit. the. nail. on. the. head.

But as has been said on this topic many times, America is too tunnel-visioned and immature as a society to have the hard talk and introspection needed to really address the familial, poverty, and economic issues that generate most violent crime. And FWIW, that work was more easily done in the early 1960s when the population was a little over half the 330+ million now.


Immaturity is exactly it. The US is still young as far as nations go. Americans by and large still have a little bit of that Wild West, frontier mentality. And it’s not hard to see why, go back barely 100 years ago and a non-insignificant amount of the country WAS still basically the frontier lifestyle.

Guns provide the instant and easy answer to the questions society doesn’t want to look at. Break into my house? Kill you. Want my wallet? Kill you. Threaten me? Kill you.

If you go into most modern countries and tell them you brought a gun to the movie theater for “self defense” you’d be branded a lunatic.
 
N583JB
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:10 am

Aaron747 wrote:
N583JB wrote:
B777LRF wrote:
Some American thinks it's fair game to shoot a guy who breaks into their house to steal a TV, and that to have the opportunity to carry out a death sentence is worth the lives of +10K people a year.

I'll just do the logical thing and stay the hell away from that place.


If someone breaks into to my house I don't care what their intention is. That is an immediate threat to me and my family and the law gives me the right to defend my castle.


There are ways to ensure perps can’t get to your sleeping area if your neighborhood is that dangerous. Been to quite a few homes in South Africa and I observed a common feature: a heavy multiple lock door blocking access to hallway to bedrooms, and sliding metal gates for windows and sliding doors that anchor to a wall lock to prevent entry. They simply go through a routine at night of buttoning up.


That sounds much more expensive than a handgun and also something that wouldn't be feasible for many Americans, particularly those who are of limited means and who live in high crime areas.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:16 am

N583JB wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
N583JB wrote:

If someone breaks into to my house I don't care what their intention is. That is an immediate threat to me and my family and the law gives me the right to defend my castle.


There are ways to ensure perps can’t get to your sleeping area if your neighborhood is that dangerous. Been to quite a few homes in South Africa and I observed a common feature: a heavy multiple lock door blocking access to hallway to bedrooms, and sliding metal gates for windows and sliding doors that anchor to a wall lock to prevent entry. They simply go through a routine at night of buttoning up.


That sounds much more expensive than a handgun and also something that wouldn't be feasible for many Americans, particularly those who are of limited means and who live in high crime areas.


Talking about what works, not what’s inexpensive. Relatively few Americans have to put up with conditions equivalent to daily life in ZA, fortunately.
Last edited by Aaron747 on Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
N583JB
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:17 am

Aaron747 wrote:
N583JB wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

There are ways to ensure perps can’t get to your sleeping area if your neighborhood is that dangerous. Been to quite a few homes in South Africa and I observed a common feature: a heavy multiple lock door blocking access to hallway to bedrooms, and sliding metal gates for windows and sliding doors that anchor to a wall lock to prevent entry. They simply go through a routine at night of buttoning up.


That sounds much more expensive than a handgun and also something that wouldn't be feasible for many Americans, particularly those who are of limited means and who live in high crime areas.


Talking about what works, not what’s inexpensive. Relatively few Americans have to put up with conditions equivalent to daily life in ZA, fortunately.


For tens of millions of Americans, a $250 shotgun or $400 pistol also works just fine.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:20 am

N583JB wrote:
moo wrote:
extender wrote:

How would you know that they just want your TV? What about your teenage daughter?


You know, you could fix your society to the point where these things don't really happen any more, right?

Home invasions seem to be something that happen (in developed countries) mainly in the US - I've lived in many developed countries and never have home invasions been a thing in the neighbourhood, on the news etc. Sure, we have burglaries, but they are few and far between and almost always happen when the property is empty, and when they occur when the property is occupied they tend to be unarmed and come in the early morning, and then flee when discovered. Someone coming into the property armed with the intention of rape or theft? Not really a thing in most decent societies.

American society seems to be significantly more violent overall than many other western developed societies, so perhaps thats what needs attention rather than giving everyone guns?


Ending crime....amazing how no one thought of that! Actually, that's number three on my to do list this week, right behind curing cancer and finding the fountain of youth.


Since we’re being glib now, perhaps we should just ban personal interactions. After all interpersonal conflict - whether domestic or just between men - is the cause of most violent crime.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
N583JB
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:24 am

Aaron747 wrote:
N583JB wrote:
moo wrote:

You know, you could fix your society to the point where these things don't really happen any more, right?

Home invasions seem to be something that happen (in developed countries) mainly in the US - I've lived in many developed countries and never have home invasions been a thing in the neighbourhood, on the news etc. Sure, we have burglaries, but they are few and far between and almost always happen when the property is empty, and when they occur when the property is occupied they tend to be unarmed and come in the early morning, and then flee when discovered. Someone coming into the property armed with the intention of rape or theft? Not really a thing in most decent societies.

American society seems to be significantly more violent overall than many other western developed societies, so perhaps thats what needs attention rather than giving everyone guns?


Ending crime....amazing how no one thought of that! Actually, that's number three on my to do list this week, right behind curing cancer and finding the fountain of youth.


Since we’re being glib now, perhaps we should just ban personal interactions. After all interpersonal conflict - whether domestic or just between men - is the cause of most violent crime.


Give it 20 years....companies like Amazon have already dramatically reduced the need to personal interactions in many areas. Add remote working and many people can get by without leaving their home for much.
 
johns624
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:04 am

zakuivcustom wrote:
johns624 wrote:
So his family knew that he had mental problems. What did they do about it? His brother said that he was "picked on" in high school. That was 4 years ago. Trying to pass the blame, it seems...


And what does his family suppose to do about it? Send him to a mental institution? Oh wait, those doesn't exist anymore. Alternatively, report him to authority?

extender wrote:
It also took place in a gun-free zone, and the shooter passed a Universal background check of the sort the Democrats want nationally.


Perhaps we need more stringent "vetting"? Bc the current checks are actually not even that hard to pass.

Mental headcase like him should never be able to get a gun legally, period. And guess what? He did get multiple guns legally.

You're contradicting yourself. First, you say his family wouldn't report him. Then you say that a person with his problems never should've been able to buy a gun. He shouldn't have, but until the authorities know that he has mental problems, there's nothing they can do. His sister say she saw him "playing around" with the gun. So, she knows he has mental problems, she knows he has a gun, and she does NOTHING!. Yet, his family claims it was being picked on in high school.
 
johns624
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:09 am

moo wrote:

Ok, so explain Boulder, Colorado then.

Man kills 10 people with a weapon that the NRA successfully managed to get back on the shelves just 10 days prior to the shooting, and the shooter purchased the weapon just 6 days prior to the shooting. But at the same time Colorado requires no permit to purchase, no registration, no permit to own etc, so....

Where were the other people with guns, in this state where the AR-15 was now legal again thanks to the NRA *and* already had "shall-issue" concealed carry permits for hand guns? Where were the people fighting back?

Here we have a state where people can own and carry guns and yet we have 10 people dead in a mass shooting. What does it take for the magical "people can defend themselves" argument to actually work? Mandatory gun ownership?

Do address some inaccuracies here...
1. The city outlawed them, not the state. He could've bought it in another town even if they were still banned in Boulder.
2. Federal law requires a background check. What would a "permit" add to that? It would just be another background check.
3. Unlike how we are portrayed, not every American owns guns and not every (or even most) gun owner has a carry permit. Even most permit holders don't carry the majority of the time. I know many who only carry when they have to go into an iffy neighborhood. So, if they're not there, or not armed, they can't fight back.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:11 am

johns624 wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:
johns624 wrote:
So his family knew that he had mental problems. What did they do about it? His brother said that he was "picked on" in high school. That was 4 years ago. Trying to pass the blame, it seems...


And what does his family suppose to do about it? Send him to a mental institution? Oh wait, those doesn't exist anymore. Alternatively, report him to authority?

extender wrote:
It also took place in a gun-free zone, and the shooter passed a Universal background check of the sort the Democrats want nationally.


Perhaps we need more stringent "vetting"? Bc the current checks are actually not even that hard to pass.

Mental headcase like him should never be able to get a gun legally, period. And guess what? He did get multiple guns legally.

You're contradicting yourself. First, you say his family wouldn't report him. Then you say that a person with his problems never should've been able to buy a gun. He shouldn't have, but until the authorities know that he has mental problems, there's nothing they can do. His sister say she saw him "playing around" with the gun. So, she knows he has mental problems, she knows he has a gun, and she does NOTHING!. Yet, his family claims it was being picked on in high school.


Easier said than done. In most jurisdictions, an adult must be ruled mentally incompetent before family can take over their treatment decisions. Reporting him as a possible danger to authorities would be a necessary step, you’re right, but it’s still a long road from there to actually resolve the situation.
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johns624
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:12 am

Aaron747 wrote:
N583JB wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

There are ways to ensure perps can’t get to your sleeping area if your neighborhood is that dangerous. Been to quite a few homes in South Africa and I observed a common feature: a heavy multiple lock door blocking access to hallway to bedrooms, and sliding metal gates for windows and sliding doors that anchor to a wall lock to prevent entry. They simply go through a routine at night of buttoning up.


That sounds much more expensive than a handgun and also something that wouldn't be feasible for many Americans, particularly those who are of limited means and who live in high crime areas.


Talking about what works, not what’s inexpensive. Relatively few Americans have to put up with conditions equivalent to daily life in ZA, fortunately.

What percentage of South Africans can afford it? I bet not many.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:16 am

johns624 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
N583JB wrote:

That sounds much more expensive than a handgun and also something that wouldn't be feasible for many Americans, particularly those who are of limited means and who live in high crime areas.


Talking about what works, not what’s inexpensive. Relatively few Americans have to put up with conditions equivalent to daily life in ZA, fortunately.

What percentage of South Africans can afford it? I bet not many.


From what I saw, such security measures are common in all middle class suburbs of all backgrounds. If people can’t afford installation they build that stuff on their own. Middle class areas also pay communally for private security to patrol their streets. Richer areas have more elaborate protection like electrified fencing. The wealthiest areas above that have gated road entry with an armed guardpost. Obviously none of this is in townships.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
johns624
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:22 am

Aaron747 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Talking about what works, not what’s inexpensive. Relatively few Americans have to put up with conditions equivalent to daily life in ZA, fortunately.

What percentage of South Africans can afford it? I bet not many.


From what I saw, such security measures are common in all middle class suburbs of all backgrounds. If people can’t afford installation they build that stuff on their own. Middle class areas also pay communally for private security to patrol their streets. Richer areas have more elaborate protection like electrified fencing. The wealthiest areas above that have gated road entry with an armed guardpost. Obviously none of this is in townships.
Thanks! I didn't know it was that widespread.
 
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Pellegrine
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:25 am

Aaron747 wrote:
It’s a money problem. Good access to mental health care is only possible with a healthy bank account. Sure, you can go to a county institution, but the doctors there see too many patients and they just put you on medication and then you’re on your own again.

We can’t prioritize access to regular healthcare so it’s no surprise mental care brings up the rear. Pets get better healthcare than people.


I agree. Also in addition to overworked doctors in public mental healthcare, you have very junior therapists and case managers who quickly go on to better paying opportunities. (Who can blame them.)
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Elkadad313
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:49 am

moo wrote:
Elkadad313 wrote:
art wrote:
So which society is more dangerous - the one in which citizens can defend themselves with guns from people with guns or the one in which people cannot defend themselves with guns from people who cannot have guns?

It would be the one in which FEWER citizens can defend themselves with guns from people with guns who are not supposed to have guns, because current politically correct culture will not/cannot take the steps necessary to remedy this problem.


Ok, so explain Boulder, Colorado then.

Man kills 10 people with a weapon that the NRA successfully managed to get back on the shelves just 10 days prior to the shooting, and the shooter purchased the weapon just 6 days prior to the shooting. But at the same time Colorado requires no permit to purchase, no registration, no permit to own etc, so....

Where were the other people with guns, in this state where the AR-15 was now legal again thanks to the NRA *and* already had "shall-issue" concealed carry permits for hand guns? Where were the people fighting back?

Here we have a state where people can own and carry guns and yet we have 10 people dead in a mass shooting. What does it take for the magical "people can defend themselves" argument to actually work? Mandatory gun ownership?

Those who support the second amendment are not necessarily fans of the corrupt NRA. The eventual goal of the left is to ban all firearms. The problem with this is it will be applied to law-abiding citizens, with no politically correct way to apply it to those who choose to ignore laws. This will create an environment where those who surrendered their firearms will be at the mercy of those who did not (and we know who most of them are, and they kill innocent bystanders as well).
 
Elkadad313
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:54 am

B777LRF wrote:
Some American thinks it's fair game to shoot a guy who breaks into their house to steal a TV, and that to have the opportunity to carry out a death sentence is worth the lives of +10K people a year.

I won't shoot a guy who breaks into my house to steal a TV provided I have an ironclad guarantee he is not armed and no harm will come to my family.
 
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moo
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:55 am

N583JB wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
N583JB wrote:

If someone breaks into to my house I don't care what their intention is. That is an immediate threat to me and my family and the law gives me the right to defend my castle.


There are ways to ensure perps can’t get to your sleeping area if your neighborhood is that dangerous. Been to quite a few homes in South Africa and I observed a common feature: a heavy multiple lock door blocking access to hallway to bedrooms, and sliding metal gates for windows and sliding doors that anchor to a wall lock to prevent entry. They simply go through a routine at night of buttoning up.


That sounds much more expensive than a handgun and also something that wouldn't be feasible for many Americans, particularly those who are of limited means and who live in high crime areas.


Given the crime rates in those areas haven't been affected by gun ownership it seems, just how much good are they doing?

Seems quite a few people in this thread are fixated on solving the wrong problem...
 
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moo
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:58 am

Elkadad313 wrote:
moo wrote:
Elkadad313 wrote:
It would be the one in which FEWER citizens can defend themselves with guns from people with guns who are not supposed to have guns, because current politically correct culture will not/cannot take the steps necessary to remedy this problem.


Ok, so explain Boulder, Colorado then.

Man kills 10 people with a weapon that the NRA successfully managed to get back on the shelves just 10 days prior to the shooting, and the shooter purchased the weapon just 6 days prior to the shooting. But at the same time Colorado requires no permit to purchase, no registration, no permit to own etc, so....

Where were the other people with guns, in this state where the AR-15 was now legal again thanks to the NRA *and* already had "shall-issue" concealed carry permits for hand guns? Where were the people fighting back?

Here we have a state where people can own and carry guns and yet we have 10 people dead in a mass shooting. What does it take for the magical "people can defend themselves" argument to actually work? Mandatory gun ownership?

Those who support the second amendment are not necessarily fans of the corrupt NRA. The eventual goal of the left is to ban all firearms. The problem with this is it will be applied to law-abiding citizens, with no politically correct way to apply it to those who choose to ignore laws. This will create an environment where those who surrendered their firearms will be at the mercy of those who did not (and we know who most of them are, and they kill innocent bystanders as well).


When are you going to stop treating guns like candy?

Oh, and the "when only criminals have guns..." argument has never worked - I don't feel afraid when out walking at night without a gun in Australia, New Zealand, the UK etc etc, all countries where gun ownership has been rolled back.

Once again, perhaps you peeps need to solve other issues in your society, because from out here it looks nasty.

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