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ltbewr
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Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:54 am

On the afternoon of March 22nd, another person with a gun terror murdered 10 persons including a police officer at a King Soopers supermarket in Boulder, Colorado. Boulder is the home of the University of Colorado, nominally a 'liberal' community in the state. It is believed the shooter was wounded and captured alive. Colorado has been the site of several mass gun murder events, like at Columbine High School and at a movie theater during the showing of a 'Batman' movie.
Once again the 'excuses', 'explanations', from mental illness to lax gun laws come out further hurting the victims. https://www.yahoo.com/news/police-bould ... 36342.html
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 3:12 am

Just another psychotic day in ‘Murica. People get up, go about their business, and get taken out by a deranged dipshit with easy access to firepower.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
Derico
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 3:22 am

Geez, can't anyone have a "bad day" anymore and assassinate a dozen people in peace and quiet?
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alfa164
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 3:39 am

I am sure the likes of Cruz, Hawley, Johnson, and their ilk will be offering "Thoughts and prayers" in about one... two... three...

:roll:
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meecrob
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:09 am

ltbewr wrote:
another person with a gun terror

...they aren't a terrorist, they are a person with a "gun terror"

maybe they had a "bad day"
Last edited by meecrob on Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:14 am

alfa164 wrote:
I am sure the likes of Cruz, Hawley, Johnson, and their ilk will be offering "Thoughts and prayers" in about one... two... three...

:roll:


I liked how the Boulder County DA poo poo'd 'thoughts and prayers' at tonight's presser and said 'we're going to do more than just thoughts and prayers'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdr6KcbmveU
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PHLspecial
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 5:09 am

meecrob wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
another person with a gun terror

...they aren't a terrorist, they are a person with a "gun terror"

maybe they had a "bad day"

Wait until you have all the "if you had a gun it could have been prevented" group.
 
N583JB
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 5:16 am

First victim ID'd was a Boulder police officer who responded to the shots fired call and was killed trying to engage the shooter. Tragic all the way around
 
art
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 7:43 am

I prefer my opinions to be based on data rather than beliefs.

Society in which gun possession is banned (UK): 33 people were killed with firearms in 2019
Society in which gun possession is permitted (US):10,258 people were killed with firearms in 2019

UK stats source: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... gmarch2019
US stats source: https://www.statista.com/statistics/249 ... ed-states/

I live in a society in which I cannot use a gun to protect myself. Does that make me feel vulnerable? You guess.

Oh yes, long live the second deadly amendment so that Americans can continue to defend themselves!
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 7:54 am

art wrote:
I prefer my opinions to be based on data rather than beliefs.

Society in which gun possession is banned (UK): 33 people were killed with firearms in 2019
Society in which gun possession is permitted (US):10,258 people were killed with firearms in 2019

UK stats source: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... gmarch2019
US stats source: https://www.statista.com/statistics/249 ... ed-states/

I live in a society in which I cannot use a gun to protect myself. Does that make me feel vulnerable? You guess.


An even better way of looking at it: UK - 33 firearm killings with a population of 66.5 million.

Firearm killings in just four US states: TX, FL, VA, NY (equiv pop 67 million) - 8,384
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scbriml
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:40 am

art wrote:
Oh yes, long live the second deadly amendment so that Americans can continue to defend themselves!


It seems that Americans are doing a pretty poor job of defending themselves! :wink2:

I worked for a global American corporation for 34 years, I've had this discussion with numerous American colleagues who were actually worried about being assigned to the UK because they wouldn't be able to have their guns. The conversations normally went along these lines:

AC: How do you defend yourself from a home invader in the middle of the night?
Me: Well, the reality is there's very little chance of you finding a home invader in the middle of the night.
AC: But what if it happens? How do you defend yourself?
Me. I'd go downstairs and tell him to fuck off!
AC: What if he's got a gun?
Me: He won't have a gun, because he knows damned well I won't have a gun.
AC: But, but...
Me: He won't have a gun, because he knows damned well I won't have a gun.

The vast majority of them ended up thoroughly enjoying their assignments to the UK. Some even expressing the view that they actually enjoyed the freedom of not feeling they needed to be armed to go about their daily lives.
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art
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:54 am

RIP Eric Talley. His courage in intervening is to be admired. Sad it cost him his own life.
 
JJJ
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:07 am

art wrote:
I prefer my opinions to be based on data rather than beliefs.

Society in which gun possession is banned (UK): 33 people were killed with firearms in 2019
Society in which gun possession is permitted (US):10,258 people were killed with firearms in 2019


Gun possession is not banned in the UK. I know quite a few great British shooters and hunters.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:14 am

N583JB wrote:
First victim ID'd was a Boulder police officer who responded to the shots fired call and was killed trying to engage the shooter. Tragic all the way around


There goes the "this would have been stopped if a good guy with a gun had been early on the scene" theory.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:19 am

JJJ wrote:
art wrote:
I prefer my opinions to be based on data rather than beliefs.

Society in which gun possession is banned (UK): 33 people were killed with firearms in 2019
Society in which gun possession is permitted (US):10,258 people were killed with firearms in 2019


Gun possession is not banned in the UK. I know quite a few great British shooters and hunters.


You know he was referring to handguns, not hunting and sporting weapons, both of which would be no good in a home invasion, they are supposed to be in gun safes, if you do not have a gun safe the firing mechanism must be removed and stored in a secure location.
 
art
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:39 am

JJJ wrote:
art wrote:
I prefer my opinions to be based on data rather than beliefs.

Society in which gun possession is banned (UK): 33 people were killed with firearms in 2019
Society in which gun possession is permitted (US):10,258 people were killed with firearms in 2019


Gun possession is not banned in the UK. I know quite a few great British shooters and hunters.


Correct. Not all guns are banned. Farmers, hunters etc can get licences for shotguns. All handguns were effectivly banned decades ago soon after a mass shooting in Scotland.
 
N583JB
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:41 am

art wrote:
I prefer my opinions to be based on data rather than beliefs.

Society in which gun possession is banned (UK): 33 people were killed with firearms in 2019
Society in which gun possession is permitted (US):10,258 people were killed with firearms in 2019

UK stats source: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... gmarch2019
US stats source: https://www.statista.com/statistics/249 ... ed-states/

I live in a society in which I cannot use a gun to protect myself. Does that make me feel vulnerable? You guess.

Oh yes, long live the second deadly amendment so that Americans can continue to defend themselves!


Most of those numbers are suicides. Most of the ones that remain are inner city gang violence. As an American I am grateful that we have the right and ability to protect ourselves. If you don't want a gun, don't buy one. That's also your right.
 
N583JB
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:43 am

Kiwirob wrote:
N583JB wrote:
First victim ID'd was a Boulder police officer who responded to the shots fired call and was killed trying to engage the shooter. Tragic all the way around


There goes the "this would have been stopped if a good guy with a gun had been early on the scene" theory.


Not really. There are hundreds of thousands of instances of defensive gun usage each year in the United States in which firearms are used to prevent crimes and/or tragedy. Unfortunately, policing is still a dangerous job.
 
JJJ
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:48 am

Kiwirob wrote:
JJJ wrote:
art wrote:
I prefer my opinions to be based on data rather than beliefs.

Society in which gun possession is banned (UK): 33 people were killed with firearms in 2019
Society in which gun possession is permitted (US):10,258 people were killed with firearms in 2019


Gun possession is not banned in the UK. I know quite a few great British shooters and hunters.


You know he was referring to handguns, not hunting and sporting weapons, both of which would be no good in a home invasion, they are supposed to be in gun safes, if you do not have a gun safe the firing mechanism must be removed and stored in a secure location.


This particular shooter used a rifle. You can get a bolt action AR in Britain with a target or hunting license, without a magazine cap like we get in most European countries.
 
GDB
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:00 am

art wrote:
JJJ wrote:
art wrote:
I prefer my opinions to be based on data rather than beliefs.

Society in which gun possession is banned (UK): 33 people were killed with firearms in 2019
Society in which gun possession is permitted (US):10,258 people were killed with firearms in 2019


Gun possession is not banned in the UK. I know quite a few great British shooters and hunters.


Correct. Not all guns are banned. Farmers, hunters etc can get licences for shotguns. All handguns were effectivly banned soon after there was a mass shooting in Scotland.


Dunblane, 25 years ago, most victims young children, this ended ownership of pistols like the Browning used by the perp.
A 1987 massacre (Hungerford), saw semi auto rifles banned, the killer had used an AK and M1 Carbine.
He also had a pistol that they were not banned then, then 9 years later Dunblane happened, made their banning inevitable, since the public demanded it.
In both cases the killers had compiled with secure storage requirements, were subject to regular police checks of them and their securing of their weapons.
It did not prevent these massacres.

The last one was in rural Cumbria in 2010, the weapons were a shotgun and .22 bolt action rifle, since as stated these are legitimate uses for framers and are therefore common in rural areas, so these were not banned.
It's called finding a reasonable balance between need, the freedom of those who need them, against the safety of the public, no trace of dodgy readings of 18th century documents.

Most of the limited gun crime in the UK are carried out with converted blank firing or replicas, conversion of these can and has resulted in long prison sentences for those involved.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:34 am

Whether it is a mass shooting like in Boulder, or the too many every weekend in Chicago, the amounts of gun murder is a deep cultural problem in the USA. Far too often, the possession and use of a gun is about fear, power and about control of one over others no matter if a robber, a cop or mass murderer. We in the USA can't control who can access guns nor the guns themselves due to our toxic culture and politics.

In the next few days, well will learn of the perverse excuses why the shooter chose to take this action, the background lives of the murder victims, see the site of the store become a shrine with flowers and other items left to memorialize the victims. Then there are those in and near the store who didn't get shot but will suffer lifelong psychological trauma from being close to it, terrorized into hiding or playing dead and escape. Likely the store will be shut down for months for investigations, maybe even permanently shut down.

I currently work with people or who have retired at my time of employment there who were in or around WTC 1 when hit by an airplane. I worked with a woman who's father was killed in a mass shooting event in the early 1990's. I know of someone who caused a death in a gun accident. A distant relative during the 1930's took their life with a gun, their body discovered by one of my uncles. They all have traumas from fear of being trapped in an elevator to this day, the loss of a loved one seeing the blood of the dead.

There is the deep frustration that we cannot deal with the access and power of the guns themselves or properly funded mental health needs due to politician's fears of losing their next election. We glorify gun possession and use, in video games, in our entertainment media. 'If it bleeds, it leads' giving attention to those that kill by guns that may encourage their use. Even during the Pandemic, murder by guns rates have kept up or increased from prior year levels. Marches are useless. Too many on the 'conservative' news media will be more concerned with losing access to guns than of the victims of use of them. I am tired of it. I want it to end. I want the culture to change so one doesn't mean being more worried about being dead from being in school, at a workplace, shopping for groceries, by a F'ed up gunman that from Covid-19.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:38 am

N583JB wrote:
art wrote:
I prefer my opinions to be based on data rather than beliefs.

Society in which gun possession is banned (UK): 33 people were killed with firearms in 2019
Society in which gun possession is permitted (US):10,258 people were killed with firearms in 2019

UK stats source: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... gmarch2019
US stats source: https://www.statista.com/statistics/249 ... ed-states/

I live in a society in which I cannot use a gun to protect myself. Does that make me feel vulnerable? You guess.

Oh yes, long live the second deadly amendment so that Americans can continue to defend themselves!


Most of those numbers are suicides. Most of the ones that remain are inner city gang violence. As an American I am grateful that we have the right and ability to protect ourselves. If you don't want a gun, don't buy one. That's also your right.


Did you even click the link? It specifically says homicides. The CDC firearm death data where they derive firearm death rates by state specifically exclude suicide from totals as well. No need to be disingenuous.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
N583JB
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:42 am

Aaron747 wrote:
N583JB wrote:
art wrote:
I prefer my opinions to be based on data rather than beliefs.

Society in which gun possession is banned (UK): 33 people were killed with firearms in 2019
Society in which gun possession is permitted (US):10,258 people were killed with firearms in 2019

UK stats source: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... gmarch2019
US stats source: https://www.statista.com/statistics/249 ... ed-states/

I live in a society in which I cannot use a gun to protect myself. Does that make me feel vulnerable? You guess.

Oh yes, long live the second deadly amendment so that Americans can continue to defend themselves!


Most of those numbers are suicides. Most of the ones that remain are inner city gang violence. As an American I am grateful that we have the right and ability to protect ourselves. If you don't want a gun, don't buy one. That's also your right.


Did you even click the link? It specifically says homicides. The CDC firearm death data where they derive firearm death rates by state specifically exclude suicide from totals as well. No need to be disingenuous.


You are correct- my apologies.
 
art
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:34 am

Mmmm...

Art's chance of being killed with a gun - about 0.5 in a million each year
N583JB's chance of being killed with a gun - about 30 in a million each year

So which society is more dangerous - the one in which citizens can defend themselves with guns from people with guns or the one in which people cannot defend themselves with guns from people who cannot have guns?

The data tell the story.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:51 pm

I favor the sort of gun laws in Dodge City at about 1900.

When I lived in the country I had a few guns, but moved back to the city and gave them to friends.
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LCDFlight
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 1:03 pm

Sigh. Two thoughts

1. This kind of thing tends to happen in March or April due to seasonal effects. COVID surely made it worse.
2. Kind of like the grocery store scene in Universal Soldier
 
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Aesma
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 1:08 pm

art wrote:
Mmmm...

Art's chance of being killed with a gun - about 0.5 in a million each year
N583JB's chance of being killed with a gun - about 30 in a million each year

So which society is more dangerous - the one in which citizens can defend themselves with guns from people with guns or the one in which people cannot defend themselves with guns from people who cannot have guns?

The data tell the story.


According to N583JB there are "hundreds of thousands of instances of defensive gun usage each year in the United States" so if that's true (I doubt it, there would be 10 times more dead by gun...), that's a pretty scary place indeed.

As for the argument about not being forced to buy a gun, sure, but you're forced to live in that scary society anyway.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Scorpio
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 1:21 pm

N583JB wrote:

Most of those numbers are suicides. Most of the ones that remain are inner city gang violence. As an American I am grateful that we have the right and ability to protect ourselves. If you don't want a gun, don't buy one. That's also your right.

ZERO of these are suicides. Not one. A single click on the link provided would've told you that. If you include suicides, the total US number goes to about 30k.

The 'it's mostly gangs, so it doesn't count' argument is also very weak. Of those 10.000, on average about 2.000 are gang related. Eight thousand are not: https://www.nationalgangcenter.gov/survey-analysis/measuring-the-extent-of-gang-problems

So even if you completely ignore the gangs (which you shouldn't, but let's pretend), your 'everyone should be able to buy guns, so we can protect ourselves' attitude means the chances of you being murdered with a gun increase by factor of 50. FIFTY. You are FIFTY times more likely to be murdered with a gun as a Brit, if you stay away from the gangs. 60 times if you include the gangs, which you should.
 
MaverickM11
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 1:26 pm

Well you know 'Murrica is getting back to normal when we have a mass shooting every week. For Jesus!

N583JB wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
N583JB wrote:
First victim ID'd was a Boulder police officer who responded to the shots fired call and was killed trying to engage the shooter. Tragic all the way around


There goes the "this would have been stopped if a good guy with a gun had been early on the scene" theory.


Not really. There are hundreds of thousands of instances of defensive gun usage each year in the United States in which firearms are used to prevent crimes and/or tragedy.

These are largely imaginary, and not reproduced in any other country.
N583JB wrote:
Unfortunately, policing is still a dangerous job.

Policing isn't even in the top 20 most dangerous jobs.
Last edited by MaverickM11 on Tue Mar 23, 2021 1:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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LCDFlight
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 1:33 pm

ltbewr wrote:
Whether it is a mass shooting like in Boulder, or the too many every weekend in Chicago, the amounts of gun murder is a deep cultural problem in the USA. Far too often, the possession and use of a gun is about fear, power and about control of one over others no matter if a robber, a cop or mass murderer. We in the USA can't control who can access guns nor the guns themselves due to our toxic culture and politics.

In the next few days, well will learn of the perverse excuses why the shooter chose to take this action, the background lives of the murder victims, see the site of the store become a shrine with flowers and other items left to memorialize the victims. Then there are those in and near the store who didn't get shot but will suffer lifelong psychological trauma from being close to it, terrorized into hiding or playing dead and escape. Likely the store will be shut down for months for investigations, maybe even permanently shut down.

I currently work with people or who have retired at my time of employment there who were in or around WTC 1 when hit by an airplane. I worked with a woman who's father was killed in a mass shooting event in the early 1990's. I know of someone who caused a death in a gun accident. A distant relative during the 1930's took their life with a gun, their body discovered by one of my uncles. They all have traumas from fear of being trapped in an elevator to this day, the loss of a loved one seeing the blood of the dead.

There is the deep frustration that we cannot deal with the access and power of the guns themselves or properly funded mental health needs due to politician's fears of losing their next election. We glorify gun possession and use, in video games, in our entertainment media. 'If it bleeds, it leads' giving attention to those that kill by guns that may encourage their use. Even during the Pandemic, murder by guns rates have kept up or increased from prior year levels. Marches are useless. Too many on the 'conservative' news media will be more concerned with losing access to guns than of the victims of use of them. I am tired of it. I want it to end. I want the culture to change so one doesn't mean being more worried about being dead from being in school, at a workplace, shopping for groceries, by a F'ed up gunman that from Covid-19.


This is a legitimate viewpoint. I am middle ground on this. I don't have any guns. But, I am hesitant to call for a ban. In a nutshell, when you call for a ban, you entrust your life permanently to the government, forever. But sometimes, governments go bad. Sometimes, a government becomes a criminal organization. It's not rare in history. Maybe we see Germany today as a good example of civil life. But is it really such a good example, over time?
 
910A
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 1:41 pm

Boulder had an assault weapon ban which was overturned by a judge ten days ago. https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2 ... apons-ban/
 
N583JB
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 1:52 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
Well you know 'Murrica is getting back to normal when we have a mass shooting every week. For Jesus!

N583JB wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

There goes the "this would have been stopped if a good guy with a gun had been early on the scene" theory.


Not really. There are hundreds of thousands of instances of defensive gun usage each year in the United States in which firearms are used to prevent crimes and/or tragedy.

These are largely imaginary, and not reproduced in any other country.
N583JB wrote:
Unfortunately, policing is still a dangerous job.

Policing isn't even in the top 20 most dangerous jobs.


Policing is actually in the top 15 most dangerous jobs. Probably will be top 10 after last year as COVID wreaked havoc on law enforcement.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:11 pm

Many of these guns come from the US. Some of these murders should be added to the US tally.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
acavpics
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:14 pm

What is it about the DEN area that makes it such a hotbead for shootings? It's a relatively small area with a relatively low population, yet keeps on having such incidents more frequently than most other metros. I can pull up a map of them Denver area and yet point out so many towns that I've heard on the news being struck by such tragedies. I can already name: Boulder, Highlands Ranch, Thornton, Co. Springs, Aurora, and Columbine.

Even metro areas in super pro-gun states, like Dallas, Phoenix, Houston, Atlanta don't seem to have massacres as frequent and concentrated as Denver. Also, I've noticed that the shootings in Colorado seem to be mostly in safe, affluent towns.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:21 pm

Another mass shooting and tragedy.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nat ... 958957002/


Time for some meaningful gun reform. There are far too many guns, and far too many in the hands of people with twisted minds,
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:24 pm

Derico wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
N583JB wrote:

Good info. At this point most gun control legislation would only harm law-abiding citizens. Criminals don't give a damn about gun laws, hence the intense rates of gun crimes in many urban areas.


Right, its America the problem and its laws, take a look at the top murder cities in the world:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/243 ... er-capita/

Do you know that all the nations and cities mentioned in the top 10 have the strictest gun laws in the world? Does anyone know how difficult it is to acquire a gun in Central and South America? Brazil anyone? Honduras anyone? Mexico?

Basically impossible. Yet murderers, criminals still find ways to get guns, despite having all laws against them.

Those who want to kill will kill, with or without laws. Is common sense. But its all politics, all solutions are to change things. That's the narrative. The solution is government, when clearly is the real problem, Chicago is a great example.


Yeah, and your country is a major supplier of those guns flooding Mexico, Central America, and some other areas. So is the US government so inept it can't stop the flow?


The point is not where they come from, but despite all the laws that exist on those countries, criminals and killers still manage to get them. So laws and such don't work.

In the US cocaine and other illegal drug trafficking and use is illegal in most places, yet it still manages to get here all the way from Mexico, Central and South America, illegally and smuggled. If the US did not produce guns, I am sure they will find their way here the same way illegal drugs do, and criminals will still use them to kill people.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:29 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Derico wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

Right, its America the problem and its laws, take a look at the top murder cities in the world:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/243 ... er-capita/

Do you know that all the nations and cities mentioned in the top 10 have the strictest gun laws in the world? Does anyone know how difficult it is to acquire a gun in Central and South America? Brazil anyone? Honduras anyone? Mexico?

Basically impossible. Yet murderers, criminals still find ways to get guns, despite having all laws against them.

Those who want to kill will kill, with or without laws. Is common sense. But its all politics, all solutions are to change things. That's the narrative. The solution is government, when clearly is the real problem, Chicago is a great example.


Yeah, and your country is a major supplier of those guns flooding Mexico, Central America, and some other areas. So is the US government so inept it can't stop the flow?


The point is not where they come from, but despite all the laws that exist on those countries, criminals and killers still manage to get them. So laws and such don't work.

In the US cocaine and other illegal drug trafficking and use is illegal in most places, yet it still manages to get here all the way from Mexico, Central and South America, illegally and smuggled. If the US did not produce guns, I am sure they will find their way here the same way illegal drugs do, and criminals will still use them to kill people.


You are conflating gun violence from systemic poverty and gang violence in south Chicago - an urban issue America has been unable to resolve because of its economic nature for 50+ years - with random shootings at malls and supermarkets. One of these things is not like the other.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:31 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Derico wrote:

Yeah, and your country is a major supplier of those guns flooding Mexico, Central America, and some other areas. So is the US government so inept it can't stop the flow?


The point is not where they come from, but despite all the laws that exist on those countries, criminals and killers still manage to get them. So laws and such don't work.

In the US cocaine and other illegal drug trafficking and use is illegal in most places, yet it still manages to get here all the way from Mexico, Central and South America, illegally and smuggled. If the US did not produce guns, I am sure they will find their way here the same way illegal drugs do, and criminals will still use them to kill people.


You are conflating gun violence from systemic poverty and gang violence in south Chicago - an urban issue America has been unable to resolve because of its economic nature for 50+ years - with random shootings at malls and supermarkets. One of these things is not like the other.



Excuse me, your post #12 says this:

An even better way of looking at it: UK - 33 firearm killings with a population of 66.5 million.

Firearm killings in just four US states: TX, FL, VA, NY (equiv pop 67 million) - 8,384


Did you remove the random shootings from your claim?
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
GDB
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:31 pm

Newark727 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Very sorry for the victims and the families. This must be very devastating for them. I hope the suspect is found guilty and pays for this horrible act.

Moderators, since you are very adamant and strict with threads on how they deviate significantly from the topic, and off topic, you ban, you remove, you lock threads. This thread is about a killing of 10 people, yet there are 20+ replies on this thread that have nothing to do with this tragedy, but about gun laws and how horrible the US is for having so many guns. Had this been another thread where someone deviates from this you are very swift and quick to act, yet you let this topic go off the rails. Isn't better a thread about the gun laws and the amount of guns in the US to be separate from this tragedy?

If by any chance a family member of someone who died sees this thread what would they think?

If you are going to actually enforce rules in this forum, why can't they be the same from everyone? Thanks!


This isn't a lightning strike, it's a murder. That means there was a why and a how, and I don't see any reason not to discuss those - especially if we want this to not happen again. And don't put words in the mouths of families of mass shooting victims.


Yes, we all saw how the families of those killed (young children) at Sandy Hook were treated, Called liars, 'crisis actors', got death threats, some had to change address as a result.
As well as in subsequent mass killings, only in 'murica.
Still, there is always the NRA, oh wait, they have matched their moral bankruptcy with financial too, turns out they were con artists. Who would have thought it?
So the gun fans here can keep the fake Crocodile tears, don't like to be reminded about the vile actions towards the victims families do you?
Well they are on your team.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:34 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

The point is not where they come from, but despite all the laws that exist on those countries, criminals and killers still manage to get them. So laws and such don't work.

In the US cocaine and other illegal drug trafficking and use is illegal in most places, yet it still manages to get here all the way from Mexico, Central and South America, illegally and smuggled. If the US did not produce guns, I am sure they will find their way here the same way illegal drugs do, and criminals will still use them to kill people.


You are conflating gun violence from systemic poverty and gang violence in south Chicago - an urban issue America has been unable to resolve because of its economic nature for 50+ years - with random shootings at malls and supermarkets. One of these things is not like the other.



Excuse me, your post #12 says this:

An even better way of looking at it: UK - 33 firearm killings with a population of 66.5 million.

Firearm killings in just four US states: TX, FL, VA, NY (equiv pop 67 million) - 8,384


Did you remove the random shootings from your claim?


I didn’t make any claim - I presented some interesting data. Where is the claim?
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
AirWorthy99
Posts: 1396
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:36 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

You are conflating gun violence from systemic poverty and gang violence in south Chicago - an urban issue America has been unable to resolve because of its economic nature for 50+ years - with random shootings at malls and supermarkets. One of these things is not like the other.



Excuse me, your post #12 says this:

An even better way of looking at it: UK - 33 firearm killings with a population of 66.5 million.

Firearm killings in just four US states: TX, FL, VA, NY (equiv pop 67 million) - 8,384


Did you remove the random shootings from your claim?


I didn’t make any claim - I presented some interesting data. Where is the claim?


You conflated there, you are accusing me of conflating. How many of those killings are actual random shootings then? because now the issue is not gun violence according to you but rather, 'random gun violence'. This is of course after presenting the evidence of Chicago.
Death from guns is death not any difference if is from a gang or from some crazy person. Death is death.
Last edited by AirWorthy99 on Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
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Aesma
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:36 pm

Laws could lead to gun manufacturing decreasing ten fold. Maybe more. That will definitely lead to less guns in hands of criminals. It would take time, but it would. Of course if you're only talking about weak laws that let pretty much anybody with a pulse buying anything, then nothing will happen.

Here in France the drug trade causes many shootings and death (all is relative, many for us in a year is probably a week in the US), yes with guns or AKs, but for every drug dealer with a gun, there are 20 without one. They use clubs, improvised weapons. Against police they use fireworks, molotov cocktails, stones. Not pleasant, but far less deadly than guns. Police rarely draw theirs...
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:41 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:


Excuse me, your post #12 says this:



Did you remove the random shootings from your claim?


I didn’t make any claim - I presented some interesting data. Where is the claim?


You conflated there, you are accusing me of conflating. How many of those killings are actual random shootings then? because now the issue is not gun violence according to you but rather, 'random gun violence'. This is of course after presenting the evidence of Chicago.
Death from guns is death not any difference if is from a gang or from some crazy person. Death is death.


I didn’t conflate anything - conflation requires a statement to be made. The poster I replied to was comparing gun death rates in the UK to here - no other context. Do try to keep up please.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
Derico
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:45 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Derico wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

Right, its America the problem and its laws, take a look at the top murder cities in the world:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/243 ... er-capita/

Do you know that all the nations and cities mentioned in the top 10 have the strictest gun laws in the world? Does anyone know how difficult it is to acquire a gun in Central and South America? Brazil anyone? Honduras anyone? Mexico?

Basically impossible. Yet murderers, criminals still find ways to get guns, despite having all laws against them.

Those who want to kill will kill, with or without laws. Is common sense. But its all politics, all solutions are to change things. That's the narrative. The solution is government, when clearly is the real problem, Chicago is a great example.


Yeah, and your country is a major supplier of those guns flooding Mexico, Central America, and some other areas. So is the US government so inept it can't stop the flow?


The point is not where they come from, but despite all the laws that exist on those countries, criminals and killers still manage to get them. So laws and such don't work.

In the US cocaine and other illegal drug trafficking and use is illegal in most places, yet it still manages to get here all the way from Mexico, Central and South America, illegally and smuggled. If the US did not produce guns, I am sure they will find their way here the same way illegal drugs do, and criminals will still use them to kill people.


Yet US administration one after the other has named and shamed the governments of those drug-supplying regions as "inept", "corrupt" and "incompetent" for decades, because they can't magically stop the flow of narcotics. It has demanded they "stop the flow" of drugs, and when alas they cannot, some will impute that ethnic traits are to blame for the failure. But as you perspicaciously pointed out, both the guns and the drugs are two sides of the same coin: supply and demand. As long as there is demand, never in the history of the planet has the supply been "wiped out". Never, neither by poor governments, nor by rich governments, superpowers, democracies, nor by dictatorships. We agree, and I would hope that more people have the savvy deductive skills you do about these basic concepts, and stop demanding the impossible, and been torn asunder in the process of trying to appease the US authorities by the battles they wage against the drug dogs. Imagine if someone demanded the USA to stop all gun manufacturing and outlawed weapon ownership in it's territory. I would predict some horrifying internal troubles, to put it mildly.
My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
 
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:59 pm

N583JB wrote:
First victim ID'd was a Boulder police officer who responded to the shots fired call and was killed trying to engage the shooter. Tragic all the way around

In first with "if he only had a bigger/better gun...".

art wrote:
I prefer my opinions to be based on data rather than beliefs.

Society in which gun possession is banned (UK): 33 people were killed with firearms in 2019
Society in which gun possession is permitted (US):10,258 people were killed with firearms in 2019

UK stats source: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... gmarch2019
US stats source: https://www.statista.com/statistics/249 ... ed-states/

I live in a society in which I cannot use a gun to protect myself. Does that make me feel vulnerable? You guess.

Oh yes, long live the second deadly amendment so that Americans can continue to defend themselves!

Numbers really can't flip the debate, this is an emotional issue rather than a logical one.

For some, having a gun is just their way of coping with their deep seated fears, they don't care that it's easily shown that their guns are more likely to kill a loved one rather than a home invader.

For others, it's a part of a bonding ritual, usually father to son, now more often females are involved. Asking them to give this up is akin to asking them to dishonor that bond.

We had a mentally ill juvenile mow down an elementary school taking down both teachers and kids while we had a very popular Democrat as President, and he could get nothing changed.

I hope that eventually logic prevails over emotion but I don't see how that can happen, especially these days when media silos make their profits off triggering the fears of their targeted audiences.
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The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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MaverickM11
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 3:04 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Derico wrote:

Yeah, and your country is a major supplier of those guns flooding Mexico, Central America, and some other areas. So is the US government so inept it can't stop the flow?


The point is not where they come from, but despite all the laws that exist on those countries, criminals and killers still manage to get them. So laws and such don't work.

In the US cocaine and other illegal drug trafficking and use is illegal in most places, yet it still manages to get here all the way from Mexico, Central and South America, illegally and smuggled. If the US did not produce guns, I am sure they will find their way here the same way illegal drugs do, and criminals will still use them to kill people.


You are conflating gun violence from systemic poverty and gang violence in south Chicago - an urban issue America has been unable to resolve because of its economic nature for 50+ years - with random shootings at malls and supermarkets. One of these things is not like the other.

If he couldn't reflexively squawk "BUT CHICAGO" there would be nothing else for him to say

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Derico wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

Right, its America the problem and its laws, take a look at the top murder cities in the world:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/243 ... er-capita/

Do you know that all the nations and cities mentioned in the top 10 have the strictest gun laws in the world? Does anyone know how difficult it is to acquire a gun in Central and South America? Brazil anyone? Honduras anyone? Mexico?

Basically impossible. Yet murderers, criminals still find ways to get guns, despite having all laws against them.

Those who want to kill will kill, with or without laws. Is common sense. But its all politics, all solutions are to change things. That's the narrative. The solution is government, when clearly is the real problem, Chicago is a great example.


Yeah, and your country is a major supplier of those guns flooding Mexico, Central America, and some other areas. So is the US government so inept it can't stop the flow?


The point is not where they come from, but despite all the laws that exist on those countries, criminals and killers still manage to get them. So laws and such don't work.

In the US cocaine and other illegal drug trafficking and use is illegal in most places, yet it still manages to get here all the way from Mexico, Central and South America, illegally and smuggled. If the US did not produce guns, I am sure they will find their way here the same way illegal drugs do, and criminals will still use them to kill people.

The laws don't work on purpose. There's a reason why the GOP has hundreds of laws in the works to restrict minorities from voting, despite near zero evidence of voter fraud, while the Georgia gunman could buy his gun the same day he murdered 8 people, despite tens of thousands of gun deaths annually. That is on purpose.
I don't take responsibility at all
 
johns624
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 3:11 pm

It sounds like the shooter was of Middle Eastern descent. It doesn't say whether he was a citizen, resident alien or foreign citizen.
https://nypost.com/2021/03/23/police-id ... NYPTwitter
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 3:19 pm

johns624 wrote:
It sounds like the shooter was of Middle Eastern descent. It doesn't say whether he was a citizen, resident alien or foreign citizen.
https://nypost.com/2021/03/23/police-id ... NYPTwitter


In the presser just now the Boulder PD said he’s a citizen and has lived in the US most of his life.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
FGITD
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 3:21 pm

As the Onion so kindly puts it:

'No Way To Prevent This,' Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens’

The epitome of “we’ve tried nothing and we’re all out of ideas!”
 
AirWorthy99
Posts: 1396
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Re: Ten murdered in Boulder, CO by shooter 3/22

Tue Mar 23, 2021 3:22 pm

johns624 wrote:
It sounds like the shooter was of Middle Eastern descent. It doesn't say whether he was a citizen, resident alien or foreign citizen.
https://nypost.com/2021/03/23/police-id ... NYPTwitter


Well that changes things a bit. I take it a terrorism investigation is ongoing, because of the foreign component. The narrative of this being some 'random shooting' might be going down.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister

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