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Aaron747
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Georgia Election Law Controversy

Sat Mar 27, 2021 12:42 am

OK, so there's lots to unpack in the GA story. Understandable that after their spat with the WH last November, the GA administration wants to button up and address 'a crisis of confidence' in the elections process, as Governor Kemp said. There are some 'common sense' elements to the new rules - I doubt any sane person in any state opposes updates and clarifications to provisional ballot criteria, absentee requirements, and expansions to weekend voting. Criticism of the absentee ID requirements is understandable but as long as alternatives are fairly available for those without drivers' licenses (utility bills proving address, W-2, bank statements, etc.) I don't see a logical reason to have an issue with it.

https://www.ajc.com/politics/bill-chang ... VEMTJLIT4/

Where they lost me and where the measures start to look petty, punitive, and targeted to suppress turnout are the following:

1. Limiting drop box locations. As long as the boxes are secure, there is no logical reason to require them to be located only inside early voting locations.
2. Reducing runoff voting to one week before election day. What was wrong with having a three week early voting period? This ensures people with almost any work situation are able to vote.
3. Removing authority from county election boards - this clearly looks like a technique to legally justify changing undesirable outcomes at the state level.
4. Prohibition of food/water assistance to people waiting in line. This is just nuts - unless the state will massively expand voting hours or drop box locations, long lines like we saw last year will return. Ridiculous and inhumane. The law notes that election workers can set up water tables. What if they don't? Someone can get arrested for bringing their wife / grandmother water? Total BS.

Of course there is disingenuousness by state failing to mention the crisis of confidence was largely influenced by the WH and media last November, but that's neither here or there. The law has been written, passed, and must be dealt with. I hope GA voters are able to successfully challenge at least the above four provisions in court.
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flyguy89
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Re: Georgia Election Law Controversy

Sat Mar 27, 2021 1:38 am

What I would love to see is a side-by-side comparison of some states’ voting laws with those of other “mature” democracies. In other words I’d like some context to better understand where I should and shouldn’t be concerned given there’s often so much over-the-top rhetoric surrounding this. I know I have some friends in Europe (pretty much all the places progressives tell us we should be more like) where certain voting laws there would have the American left apoplectic.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Georgia Election Law Controversy

Sat Mar 27, 2021 2:00 am

In France there are quite strict laws around voting, not to suppress it but to avoid proselytizing. We vote on Sundays, and from Friday night the campaign is over for example, politicians have to shut up, no leaflets allowed, etc. Many of the things happening in the US are banned. We don't have early voting either, for the pandemic giving your vote to someone has been made a bit easier. No mail voting.

Voting places are plentiful so there rarely are queues, however if a queue happened and someone provided food and drink, I don't see how it could be problematic, as long as you're not prozeliting. I don't see how that ban can be constitutional in the US to be honest.

You do need ID to vote unless you live in a small village where a voting card is enough (sent to your home). However in France you can't really live without an ID card, it's needed on a daily basis, and it's free to get one. For voting a passport or driving license is also acceptable.
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Aaron747
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Re: Georgia Election Law Controversy

Sat Mar 27, 2021 2:08 am

flyguy89 wrote:
What I would love to see is a side-by-side comparison of some states’ voting laws with those of other “mature” democracies. In other words I’d like some context to better understand where I should and shouldn’t be concerned given there’s often so much over-the-top rhetoric surrounding this. I know I have some friends in Europe (pretty much all the places progressives tell us we should be more like) where certain voting laws there would have the American left apoplectic.


It seems the principal difference, at least compared to Canada, is the amount of local control in the US.

"Essentially there are 50 different elections going on on the same day," says Garnett, who is also a contributor to the Electoral Integrity Project. "In some cases even, if counties are running their elections differently within a state, then you can have hundreds of elections going on, each of them with their own set of rules and procedures. And that is quite notable about the American context."

Garnett notes that in Canada, on the other hand, there is a more centralized management system run by Elections Canada, which has procedures that work "the same no matter where you live" in the country. Canada is ranked No. 18 overall last year in the Electoral Integrity Project's report and had the third-highest score among countries in the Americas.


https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countr ... arch-shows

Federalism essentially guarantees that we'll never have procedures working the same no matter where Americans live.

That said within the context of a state election, any comment on items 1-4 in the OP?
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Kent350787
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Re: Georgia Election Law Controversy

Sat Mar 27, 2021 2:14 am

In Australia, we have independent electoral commissions at state and federal level, overseeing elections for their separate jurisdictions. Redistributions are considered after each election based on population changes, and all parties are able to provide input into that process.

With mandatory attendance for 18yo+ (you can register once you turn 17) every effort is made for there to be sufficient polling places on the Saturday for all who need to vote.

Pre-poll voting is also readily available. The biggest concern from politicians is that the increase in pre-poll voting is reducing the impact of their final two weeks of campaigning.
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Re: Georgia Election Law Controversy

Sat Mar 27, 2021 4:58 am

I love people all over social media saying they’re going to boycott Delta over this. As if they could have known months or years ago what politicians they donate (relatively minuscule amounts of money) to were going to do. They have no obligation to say anything given there is no suppression in this anyway
 
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Re: Georgia Election Law Controversy

Sat Mar 27, 2021 5:14 am

Kent350787 wrote:
In Australia, we have independent electoral commissions at state and federal level, overseeing elections for their separate jurisdictions. Redistributions are considered after each election based on population changes, and all parties are able to provide input into that process.

With mandatory attendance for 18yo+ (you can register once you turn 17) every effort is made for there to be sufficient polling places on the Saturday for all who need to vote.

Pre-poll voting is also readily available. The biggest concern from politicians is that the increase in pre-poll voting is reducing the impact of their final two weeks of campaigning.


Yes, it's quite easy to vote. Usually I'm out riding a bicycle on the day of voting so I'll just drop into a voting station where it is convenient if I'm away from my local one. Easy.

I can't believe how something that is so relatively simple here in Australia can be so exceedingly difficult in the USA.
 
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Re: Georgia Election Law Controversy

Sat Mar 27, 2021 6:20 am

Aaron747 wrote:
4. Prohibition of food/water assistance to people waiting in line. This is just nuts - unless the state will massively expand voting hours or drop box locations, long lines like we saw last year will return. Ridiculous and inhumane. The law notes that election workers can set up water tables. What if they don't? Someone can get arrested for bringing their wife / grandmother water? Total BS.

This is something I have read about from other sources and I don't understand why is it not being banned until now? Giving material benefits to voters right before they vote is one of the easiest way to influence their voting decision
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flyguy89
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Re: Georgia Election Law Controversy

Sat Mar 27, 2021 6:22 am

Aaron747 wrote:
Federalism essentially guarantees that we'll never have procedures working the same no matter where Americans live.

This is true, but cuts both ways in my view. The decentralized nature, while disadvantageous as far as lacking uniformity, can also lend security and confidence (at least when you don’t have a con man actively sowing distrust) to elections.

Aaron747 wrote:
That said within the context of a state election, any comment on items 1-4 in the OP?

1) I guess I’d need to know first how much they’re being reduced and what the practical impact will be. Seems reasonable to have some defined standards around drop box locations...but are we talking about now having to drive an hour to drop off a ballot, or just an extra 5 minutes?
2) An entire week to vote early does not sound crazy or overly-burdensome to me.
3) This part is concerning.
4) This part does seem capricious but hardly rises to the level of being "inhumane." I don’t think most democracies make a point of providing food/drink to voters. Most jurisdictions in many states do have pretty strong regulations around who (non-voters) can be around polling locations. Maybe a compromise could have been requiring polling locations to set up water tables?
 
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Re: Georgia Election Law Controversy

Sat Mar 27, 2021 6:37 am

flyguy89 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Federalism essentially guarantees that we'll never have procedures working the same no matter where Americans live.

This is true, but cuts both ways in my view. The decentralized nature, while disadvantageous as far as lacking uniformity, can also lend security and confidence (at least when you don’t have a con man actively sowing distrust) to elections.

Aaron747 wrote:
That said within the context of a state election, any comment on items 1-4 in the OP?

1) I guess I’d need to know first how much they’re being reduced and what the practical impact will be. Seems reasonable to have some defined standards around drop box locations...but are we talking about now having to drive an hour to drop off a ballot, or just an extra 5 minutes?
2) An entire week to vote early does not sound crazy or overly-burdensome to me.
3) This part is concerning.
4) This part does seem capricious but hardly rises to the level of being "inhumane." I don’t think most democracies make a point of providing food/drink to voters. Most jurisdictions in many states do have pretty strong regulations around who (non-voters) can be around polling locations. Maybe a compromise could have been requiring polling locations to set up water tables?


1) Its a logical assumption given the wait times seen last year that GA does not have enough drop boxes. Voting locations have decreased even as GA's population has increased.

https://www.ajc.com/politics/politics-b ... CTYS7DNPQ/

2) It's burdensome given GA's voter leave law, which does not require paid leave and has a very vague clause of 'reasonable notice' for advance notice to employer. AK, AZ, CA, CO, IL, IA, KS, MD, NE, NV, NM, NY, SD, TN, TX, UT, WV, and WY all mandate paid leave to vote, so it's not a blue/red state thing.

https://ballotpedia.org/States_that_req ... vote,_2020

4) I believe the inhumane aspect arises from the context of the 2+ hour waits that were observed in some GA counties in 2020 elections there. It's nuts to make it illegal for friends and family to give food or drink to someone in line as long as they don't disturb others.
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Re: Georgia Election Law Controversy

Sat Mar 27, 2021 6:37 am

c933103 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
4. Prohibition of food/water assistance to people waiting in line. This is just nuts - unless the state will massively expand voting hours or drop box locations, long lines like we saw last year will return. Ridiculous and inhumane. The law notes that election workers can set up water tables. What if they don't? Someone can get arrested for bringing their wife / grandmother water? Total BS.

This is something I have read about from other sources and I don't understand why is it not being banned until now? Giving material benefits to voters right before they vote is one of the easiest way to influence their voting decision


It is not a consideration in most jurisdictions because people can typically get in and out.
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Re: Georgia Election Law Controversy

Sat Mar 27, 2021 6:38 am

cpd wrote:
Kent350787 wrote:
In Australia, we have independent electoral commissions at state and federal level, overseeing elections for their separate jurisdictions. Redistributions are considered after each election based on population changes, and all parties are able to provide input into that process.

With mandatory attendance for 18yo+ (you can register once you turn 17) every effort is made for there to be sufficient polling places on the Saturday for all who need to vote.

Pre-poll voting is also readily available. The biggest concern from politicians is that the increase in pre-poll voting is reducing the impact of their final two weeks of campaigning.


Yes, it's quite easy to vote. Usually I'm out riding a bicycle on the day of voting so I'll just drop into a voting station where it is convenient if I'm away from my local one. Easy.

I can't believe how something that is so relatively simple here in Australia can be so exceedingly difficult in the USA.


You mean like accessing healthcare? :duck:
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Kent350787
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Re: Georgia Election Law Controversy

Sat Mar 27, 2021 7:07 am

Aaron747 wrote:
cpd wrote:
Kent350787 wrote:
In Australia, we have independent electoral commissions at state and federal level, overseeing elections for their separate jurisdictions. Redistributions are considered after each election based on population changes, and all parties are able to provide input into that process.

With mandatory attendance for 18yo+ (you can register once you turn 17) every effort is made for there to be sufficient polling places on the Saturday for all who need to vote.

Pre-poll voting is also readily available. The biggest concern from politicians is that the increase in pre-poll voting is reducing the impact of their final two weeks of campaigning.


Yes, it's quite easy to vote. Usually I'm out riding a bicycle on the day of voting so I'll just drop into a voting station where it is convenient if I'm away from my local one. Easy.

I can't believe how something that is so relatively simple here in Australia can be so exceedingly difficult in the USA.


You mean like accessing healthcare? :duck:


Haha. Not going there....

I must admit I once had to wait for almost 20 minutes to vote, but I think one of my family members grabbed me a grilled/bbq sausage on a roll and drink from the stall the school community was running (most polling booths are at schools or community halls)
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flyguy89
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Re: Georgia Election Law Controversy

Sat Mar 27, 2021 7:50 am

Aaron747 wrote:
1) Its a logical assumption given the wait times seen last year that GA does not have enough drop boxes. Voting locations have decreased even as GA's population has increased.

The state evidently has laws on the book capping the number of voters per precinct which it’s not enforcing. That would seem to me much lower-hanging fruit for expanding voting access.


Aaron747 wrote:
2) It's burdensome given GA's voter leave law, which does not require paid leave and has a very vague clause of 'reasonable notice' for advance notice to employer. AK, AZ, CA, CO, IL, IA, KS, MD, NE, NV, NM, NY, SD, TN, TX, UT, WV, and WY all mandate paid leave to vote, so it's not a blue/red state thing.

Be that as it may, an entire week to vote early still seems entirely reasonable.

Aaron747 wrote:
4) I believe the inhumane aspect arises from the context of the 2+ hour waits that were observed in some GA counties in 2020 elections there. It's nuts to make it illegal for friends and family to give food or drink to someone in line as long as they don't disturb others.

People wait as long to get into Walmart on Black Friday to get a deal on plasma TVs. Reducing excessive lines at polling stations should certainly be addressed however.
 
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Re: Georgia Election Law Controversy

Sat Mar 27, 2021 8:06 am

Aaron747 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
4. Prohibition of food/water assistance to people waiting in line. This is just nuts - unless the state will massively expand voting hours or drop box locations, long lines like we saw last year will return. Ridiculous and inhumane. The law notes that election workers can set up water tables. What if they don't? Someone can get arrested for bringing their wife / grandmother water? Total BS.

This is something I have read about from other sources and I don't understand why is it not being banned until now? Giving material benefits to voters right before they vote is one of the easiest way to influence their voting decision


It is not a consideration in most jurisdictions because people can typically get in and out.

.. I mean, last two or three elections in Hong Kong have see people making up long queues outside polling booth with hours of wait necessary, some polling booth close at 10pm but the line that was formed by then at some polling stations didn't finish voting until like 2 or 3 am, while that is considered suppressing the voters will to vote I don't think anyone sensible would suggest resolving the issue by letting unspecific people handing out food and water to those who are waiting to vote, given that, even without such, pro-government party are already bussing voters from elderly home to voting booth and instructing them who they should vote by giving them paper with their candidate number written on it before sending those elderly into voting place. Giving actual material benefits like food and water to people who are voting to vote could be an even more advanced form of manipulation.
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Aaron747
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Re: Georgia Election Law Controversy

Sat Mar 27, 2021 8:30 am

c933103 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
This is something I have read about from other sources and I don't understand why is it not being banned until now? Giving material benefits to voters right before they vote is one of the easiest way to influence their voting decision


It is not a consideration in most jurisdictions because people can typically get in and out.

.. I mean, last two or three elections in Hong Kong have see people making up long queues outside polling booth with hours of wait necessary, some polling booth close at 10pm but the line that was formed by then at some polling stations didn't finish voting until like 2 or 3 am, while that is considered suppressing the voters will to vote I don't think anyone sensible would suggest resolving the issue by letting unspecific people handing out food and water to those who are waiting to vote, given that, even without such, pro-government party are already bussing voters from elderly home to voting booth and instructing them who they should vote by giving them paper with their candidate number written on it before sending those elderly into voting place. Giving actual material benefits like food and water to people who are voting to vote could be an even more advanced form of manipulation.


In the US it isn’t...simple as that.
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Re: Georgia Election Law Controversy

Sat Mar 27, 2021 8:32 am

flyguy89 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
1) Its a logical assumption given the wait times seen last year that GA does not have enough drop boxes. Voting locations have decreased even as GA's population has increased.

The state evidently has laws on the book capping the number of voters per precinct which it’s not enforcing. That would seem to me much lower-hanging fruit for expanding voting access.


Aaron747 wrote:
2) It's burdensome given GA's voter leave law, which does not require paid leave and has a very vague clause of 'reasonable notice' for advance notice to employer. AK, AZ, CA, CO, IL, IA, KS, MD, NE, NV, NM, NY, SD, TN, TX, UT, WV, and WY all mandate paid leave to vote, so it's not a blue/red state thing.

Be that as it may, an entire week to vote early still seems entirely reasonable.

Aaron747 wrote:
4) I believe the inhumane aspect arises from the context of the 2+ hour waits that were observed in some GA counties in 2020 elections there. It's nuts to make it illegal for friends and family to give food or drink to someone in line as long as they don't disturb others.

People wait as long to get into Walmart on Black Friday to get a deal on plasma TVs. Reducing excessive lines at polling stations should certainly be addressed however.


I don’t think plaintiffs’ attorneys will have any difficulty arguing that one week is a burden for hourly workers and that people have enshrined rights to cast a ballot vs Black Friday shopping which is a luxury.
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Re: Georgia Election Law Controversy

Sat Mar 27, 2021 8:41 am

Aaron747 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

It is not a consideration in most jurisdictions because people can typically get in and out.

.. I mean, last two or three elections in Hong Kong have see people making up long queues outside polling booth with hours of wait necessary, some polling booth close at 10pm but the line that was formed by then at some polling stations didn't finish voting until like 2 or 3 am, while that is considered suppressing the voters will to vote I don't think anyone sensible would suggest resolving the issue by letting unspecific people handing out food and water to those who are waiting to vote, given that, even without such, pro-government party are already bussing voters from elderly home to voting booth and instructing them who they should vote by giving them paper with their candidate number written on it before sending those elderly into voting place. Giving actual material benefits like food and water to people who are voting to vote could be an even more advanced form of manipulation.


In the US it isn’t...simple as that.

But how can it be prevented if it is allowed in the US?
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bennett123
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Re: Georgia Election Law Controversy

Sat Mar 27, 2021 9:35 am

Based on my experience in the UK, it is hard to see why people are queuing for hours.

I go to my local polling station, possibly queuing for a couple of minutes, hand over my voting card, (which comes in the post to anyone on the electoral register) and get my voting form.

I go into the booth, tick the name of my chosen candidate, fold the form and drop it in the box, (sealed with a slot in the lid).

Then I walk out, job done.
 
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Re: Georgia Election Law Controversy

Sat Mar 27, 2021 9:42 am

bennett123 wrote:
Based on my experience in the UK, it is hard to see why people are queuing for hours.

I go to my local polling station, possibly queuing for a couple of minutes, hand over my voting card, (which comes in the post to anyone on the electoral register) and get my voting form.

I go into the booth, tick the name of my chosen candidate, fold the form and drop it in the box, (sealed with a slot in the lid).

Then I walk out, job done.


Most of the time, but there are times of the day when polling stations do get busy. I distinctly remember having to queue for about 30 minutes to vote in the EU referendum. But I agree, most times it's an absolute breeze (even easier when I switched to postal voting).
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Re: Georgia Election Law Controversy

Sat Mar 27, 2021 10:44 am

c933103 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
.. I mean, last two or three elections in Hong Kong have see people making up long queues outside polling booth with hours of wait necessary, some polling booth close at 10pm but the line that was formed by then at some polling stations didn't finish voting until like 2 or 3 am, while that is considered suppressing the voters will to vote I don't think anyone sensible would suggest resolving the issue by letting unspecific people handing out food and water to those who are waiting to vote, given that, even without such, pro-government party are already bussing voters from elderly home to voting booth and instructing them who they should vote by giving them paper with their candidate number written on it before sending those elderly into voting place. Giving actual material benefits like food and water to people who are voting to vote could be an even more advanced form of manipulation.


In the US it isn’t...simple as that.

But how can it be prevented if it is allowed in the US?


What I meant was it's not considered manipulation. In any case, almost every state has a law on the books similar to this:

It is unlawful for any authorized representative permitted in the polling place pursuant to § 24.2-604.4, any voter, or any other person in the room to (i) hinder or delay a qualified voter; (ii) give, tender, or exhibit any ballot, ticket, or other campaign material to any person; (iii) solicit or in any manner attempt to influence any person in casting his vote; (iv) hinder or delay any officer of election; (v) be in a position to see the marked ballot of any other voter; or (vi) otherwise impede the orderly conduct of the election.

https://law.lis.virginia.gov/vacode/tit ... n24.2-604/
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Re: Georgia Election Law Controversy

Sat Mar 27, 2021 11:32 am

Aaron747 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

In the US it isn’t...simple as that.

But how can it be prevented if it is allowed in the US?


What I meant was it's not considered manipulation. In any case, almost every state has a law on the books similar to this:

It is unlawful for any authorized representative permitted in the polling place pursuant to § 24.2-604.4, any voter, or any other person in the room to (i) hinder or delay a qualified voter; (ii) give, tender, or exhibit any ballot, ticket, or other campaign material to any person; (iii) solicit or in any manner attempt to influence any person in casting his vote; (iv) hinder or delay any officer of election; (v) be in a position to see the marked ballot of any other voter; or (vi) otherwise impede the orderly conduct of the election.

https://law.lis.virginia.gov/vacode/tit ... n24.2-604/

The rule seems to regulate "autorized representative" in the "polling place", not any other person affiliated/supporting with the party, nor at the queue outside the polling place?
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WIederling
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Re: Georgia Election Law Controversy

Sat Mar 27, 2021 11:46 am

c933103 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
4. Prohibition of food/water assistance to people waiting in line. This is just nuts - unless the state will massively expand voting hours or drop box locations, long lines like we saw last year will return. Ridiculous and inhumane. The law notes that election workers can set up water tables. What if they don't? Someone can get arrested for bringing their wife / grandmother water? Total BS.

This is something I have read about from other sources and I don't understand why is it not being banned until now? Giving material benefits to voters right before they vote is one of the easiest way to influence their voting decision


Water and cookies from a nonpartisan help group?

If you want to limit undue voter influencing I'd ban partisan phone campaigns.
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Aaron747
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Re: Georgia Election Law Controversy

Sat Mar 27, 2021 12:22 pm

c933103 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
But how can it be prevented if it is allowed in the US?


What I meant was it's not considered manipulation. In any case, almost every state has a law on the books similar to this:

It is unlawful for any authorized representative permitted in the polling place pursuant to § 24.2-604.4, any voter, or any other person in the room to (i) hinder or delay a qualified voter; (ii) give, tender, or exhibit any ballot, ticket, or other campaign material to any person; (iii) solicit or in any manner attempt to influence any person in casting his vote; (iv) hinder or delay any officer of election; (v) be in a position to see the marked ballot of any other voter; or (vi) otherwise impede the orderly conduct of the election.

https://law.lis.virginia.gov/vacode/tit ... n24.2-604/

The rule seems to regulate "autorized representative" in the "polling place", not any other person affiliated/supporting with the party, nor at the queue outside the polling place?


The laws typically specify a distance from the polling place or voters, and in this case, includes 'any voter, or any other person in the room'. That covers, well, everyone, except election workers.
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Re: Georgia Election Law Controversy

Sat Mar 27, 2021 12:42 pm

Good for Georgia and doing this. But I understand the 'outrage' of the left, they want to force HR1 and have the elections be federally regulated, which is completely against federalism and unconstitutional.

I think Georgia should have gone farther, and have people voting only in election day.

If voting is so hard for you, then probably you should not vote.
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Re: Georgia Election Law Controversy

Sat Mar 27, 2021 12:43 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

What I meant was it's not considered manipulation. In any case, almost every state has a law on the books similar to this:

It is unlawful for any authorized representative permitted in the polling place pursuant to § 24.2-604.4, any voter, or any other person in the room to (i) hinder or delay a qualified voter; (ii) give, tender, or exhibit any ballot, ticket, or other campaign material to any person; (iii) solicit or in any manner attempt to influence any person in casting his vote; (iv) hinder or delay any officer of election; (v) be in a position to see the marked ballot of any other voter; or (vi) otherwise impede the orderly conduct of the election.

https://law.lis.virginia.gov/vacode/tit ... n24.2-604/

The rule seems to regulate "autorized representative" in the "polling place", not any other person affiliated/supporting with the party, nor at the queue outside the polling place?


The laws typically specify a distance from the polling place or voters, and in this case, includes 'any voter, or any other person in the room'. That covers, well, everyone, except election workers.

But are the people waiting inside or outside the room when they wait to vote?

WIederling wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
4. Prohibition of food/water assistance to people waiting in line. This is just nuts - unless the state will massively expand voting hours or drop box locations, long lines like we saw last year will return. Ridiculous and inhumane. The law notes that election workers can set up water tables. What if they don't? Someone can get arrested for bringing their wife / grandmother water? Total BS.

This is something I have read about from other sources and I don't understand why is it not being banned until now? Giving material benefits to voters right before they vote is one of the easiest way to influence their voting decision


Water and cookies from a nonpartisan help group?

If you want to limit undue voter influencing I'd ban partisan phone campaigns.

Fair, fair
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Re: Georgia Election Law Controversy

Sat Mar 27, 2021 12:44 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Good for Georgia and doing this. But I understand the 'outrage' of the left, they want to force HR1 and have the elections be federally regulated, which is completely against federalism and unconstitutional.

I think Georgia should have gone farther, and have people voting only in election day.

If voting is so hard for you, then probably you should not vote.


Wow, and I thought we get a bad rap in HR. Not everyone can afford to take unpaid leave. In states with weaker laws, not everyone is able to negotiate the time off either. Are you saying if people have other pressures in life they should simply not take part in a civic right? Astounding.
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Re: Georgia Election Law Controversy

Sat Mar 27, 2021 12:45 pm

c933103 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
The rule seems to regulate "autorized representative" in the "polling place", not any other person affiliated/supporting with the party, nor at the queue outside the polling place?


The laws typically specify a distance from the polling place or voters, and in this case, includes 'any voter, or any other person in the room'. That covers, well, everyone, except election workers.

But are the people waiting inside or outside the room when they wait to vote?

WIederling wrote:
c933103 wrote:
This is something I have read about from other sources and I don't understand why is it not being banned until now? Giving material benefits to voters right before they vote is one of the easiest way to influence their voting decision


Water and cookies from a nonpartisan help group?

If you want to limit undue voter influencing I'd ban partisan phone campaigns.

Fair, fair


It depends on the situation. In a properly functioning county, people are in, wait a few moments, vote, and out. If there are queues, they'll be both inside and outside.
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Re: Georgia Election Law Controversy

Sat Mar 27, 2021 12:48 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

The laws typically specify a distance from the polling place or voters, and in this case, includes 'any voter, or any other person in the room'. That covers, well, everyone, except election workers.

But are the people waiting inside or outside the room when they wait to vote?

WIederling wrote:

Water and cookies from a nonpartisan help group?

If you want to limit undue voter influencing I'd ban partisan phone campaigns.

Fair, fair


It depends on the situation. In a properly functioning county, people are in, wait a few moments, vote, and out. If there are queues, they'll be both inside and outside.

But how about in those that people wait so long amd need water supply?
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Re: Georgia Election Law Controversy

Sat Mar 27, 2021 12:51 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Good for Georgia and doing this. But I understand the 'outrage' of the left, they want to force HR1 and have the elections be federally regulated, which is completely against federalism and unconstitutional.

I think Georgia should have gone farther, and have people voting only in election day.

If voting is so hard for you, then probably you should not vote.


Wow, and I thought we get a bad rap in HR. Not everyone can afford to take unpaid leave. In states with weaker laws, not everyone is able to negotiate the time off either. Are you saying if people have other pressures in life they should simply not take part in a civic right? Astounding.


Most polling places open very early in the morning and close till 8PM, so there is plenty of time.

Elections have significant consequences in peoples lives, if its too hard for you to take your time to vote, probably this person is not balancing the consequences of losing one day or one houre of work, whereas 2 or 4 years of government policy.

Most voters do have a lot at stake, and show up on election day. If its too difficult, perhaps this person doesn't really care. My opinion.
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Re: Georgia Election Law Controversy

Sat Mar 27, 2021 1:09 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Good for Georgia and doing this. But I understand the 'outrage' of the left, they want to force HR1 and have the elections be federally regulated, which is completely against federalism and unconstitutional.

I think Georgia should have gone farther, and have people voting only in election day.

If voting is so hard for you, then probably you should not vote.


Wow, and I thought we get a bad rap in HR. Not everyone can afford to take unpaid leave. In states with weaker laws, not everyone is able to negotiate the time off either. Are you saying if people have other pressures in life they should simply not take part in a civic right? Astounding.


Most polling places open very early in the morning and close till 8PM, so there is plenty of time.

Elections have significant consequences in peoples lives, if its too hard for you to take your time to vote, probably this person is not balancing the consequences of losing one day or one houre of work, whereas 2 or 4 years of government policy.

Most voters do have a lot at stake, and show up on election day. If its too difficult, perhaps this person doesn't really care. My opinion.


Very heartless position to take. People like us are fortunate and can of course make that time. Perhaps you don’t know anyone working two or three jobs, or had three simultaneous PT jobs when you went to university, or don’t have colleagues who are single moms/dads without family in town to help. How about RNs or MDs working an 18-hour shift? Seriously, there are a lot of situations where it’s hard to make the time even if the voter is engaged.

Early voting / drop boxes are a godsend to such people.
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Re: Georgia Election Law Controversy

Sat Mar 27, 2021 1:12 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Wow, and I thought we get a bad rap in HR. Not everyone can afford to take unpaid leave. In states with weaker laws, not everyone is able to negotiate the time off either. Are you saying if people have other pressures in life they should simply not take part in a civic right? Astounding.


Most polling places open very early in the morning and close till 8PM, so there is plenty of time.

Elections have significant consequences in peoples lives, if its too hard for you to take your time to vote, probably this person is not balancing the consequences of losing one day or one houre of work, whereas 2 or 4 years of government policy.

Most voters do have a lot at stake, and show up on election day. If its too difficult, perhaps this person doesn't really care. My opinion.


Very heartless position to take. People like us are fortunate and can of course make that time. Perhaps you don’t know anyone working two or three jobs, or had three simultaneous PT jobs when you went to university, or don’t have colleagues who are single moms/dads without family in town to help. Seriously, there are a lot of situations where it’s hard to make the time even if the voter is engaged.

Early voting / drop boxes are a godsend to such people.


My parents had that situation, my mom was a hotel housekeeper worked 10 hours, still found time to vote. My dad a janitor working 12 hours, he still found a way to vote. Back then there wasn't early voting. They still voted because they fled as political refugees a communist country and loved the freedoms this country afforded to them.

If you want to do something, you find a way to do it, not find excuses.

If is any consolation to you, Georgia hasn't banned early voting. I was merely giving my opinion. Georgia still has very friendly voting laws.
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Re: Georgia Election Law Controversy

Sat Mar 27, 2021 1:22 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
they fled as political refugees a communist country and loved the freedoms this country afforded to them.

You’d think that someone with roots in a communist country would be more willing to defend and expand democracy for all, instead of putting up barriers.
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Re: Georgia Election Law Controversy

Sat Mar 27, 2021 1:28 pm

petertenthije wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
they fled as political refugees a communist country and loved the freedoms this country afforded to them.

You’d think that someone with roots in a communist country would be more willing to defend and expand democracy for all, instead of putting up barriers.


Not having 'early voting' a barrier?

So, Italy, France, Spain and many other European nations, they have 'barriers', what do you think about those 'democracies'?
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Re: Georgia Election Law Controversy

Sat Mar 27, 2021 1:31 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

Most polling places open very early in the morning and close till 8PM, so there is plenty of time.

Elections have significant consequences in peoples lives, if its too hard for you to take your time to vote, probably this person is not balancing the consequences of losing one day or one houre of work, whereas 2 or 4 years of government policy.

Most voters do have a lot at stake, and show up on election day. If its too difficult, perhaps this person doesn't really care. My opinion.


Very heartless position to take. People like us are fortunate and can of course make that time. Perhaps you don’t know anyone working two or three jobs, or had three simultaneous PT jobs when you went to university, or don’t have colleagues who are single moms/dads without family in town to help. Seriously, there are a lot of situations where it’s hard to make the time even if the voter is engaged.

Early voting / drop boxes are a godsend to such people.


My parents had that situation, my mom was a hotel housekeeper worked 10 hours, still found time to vote. My dad a janitor working 12 hours, he still found a way to vote. Back then there wasn't early voting. They still voted because they fled as political refugees a communist country and loved the freedoms this country afforded to them.

If you want to do something, you find a way to do it, not find excuses.

If is any consolation to you, Georgia hasn't banned early voting. I was merely giving my opinion. Georgia still has very friendly voting laws.


They had nice bosses or were able to trade shifts - not everyone does. For every anecdote of people who can find a way, there are others without one. 12 hours in janitorial is not 18 hours as a nurse or doctor BTW. And coming home married with kids isn’t the same as being single with no family to help. Use your imagination - it shouldn’t be that hard.
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Re: Georgia Election Law Controversy

Sat Mar 27, 2021 1:37 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
petertenthije wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
they fled as political refugees a communist country and loved the freedoms this country afforded to them.

You’d think that someone with roots in a communist country would be more willing to defend and expand democracy for all, instead of putting up barriers.


Not having 'early voting' a barrier?

So, Italy, France, Spain and many other European nations, they have 'barriers', what do you think about those 'democracies'?


Voting in EU countries is often on Sundays, not a weekday.
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Re: Georgia Election Law Controversy

Sat Mar 27, 2021 1:54 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
petertenthije wrote:
You’d think that someone with roots in a communist country would be more willing to defend and expand democracy for all, instead of putting up barriers.


Not having 'early voting' a barrier?

So, Italy, France, Spain and many other European nations, they have 'barriers', what do you think about those 'democracies'?


Voting in EU countries is often on Sundays, not a weekday.

That's really US's problem, but for service workers it doesn't change much given supermarkets and fast food stall would still open on weekends.
Closing at 8pm is probably also too early
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Re: Georgia Election Law Controversy

Sat Mar 27, 2021 2:55 pm

c933103 wrote:
That's really US's problem, but for service workers it doesn't change much given supermarkets and fast food stall would still open on weekends.
Closing at 8pm is probably also too early


Higher throughput, more polling stations.
I've never in my life queued more than 5 minutes for voting in any of the Kommunal-, Landtags- or Bundestags- Wahlen here in Germany.
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Re: Georgia Election Law Controversy

Sat Mar 27, 2021 3:14 pm

WIederling wrote:
c933103 wrote:
That's really US's problem, but for service workers it doesn't change much given supermarkets and fast food stall would still open on weekends.
Closing at 8pm is probably also too early


Higher throughput, more polling stations.
I've never in my life queued more than 5 minutes for voting in any of the Kommunal-, Landtags- or Bundestags- Wahlen here in Germany.


Germans are known for being organized. About 40+ US states - not so much. Have you seen our airport diagrams? :boggled:
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Re: Georgia Election Law Controversy

Sat Mar 27, 2021 3:18 pm

WIederling wrote:
c933103 wrote:
That's really US's problem, but for service workers it doesn't change much given supermarkets and fast food stall would still open on weekends.
Closing at 8pm is probably also too early


Higher throughput, more polling stations.
I've never in my life queued more than 5 minutes for voting in any of the Kommunal-, Landtags- or Bundestags- Wahlen here in Germany.


Because the German government makes it easy for it's citizens to vote. Republican states are trying to make it more difficult for citizens to vote. Especially those in urban (read: Democratic) areas. Oregon, Washington, and California make it very easy for legal citizens of those states to vote. And there are still third party candidates and there are still Republicans voted into office. So, this whole notion of "Republicans can't get elected if we let people vote" is nonsense. Maybe put up descent candidates and they will win elections instead of simply changing the rules so they stay in power. That's what these restrictive laws are about.

It is not just Georgia cancelling democracy. Other Republican led states have been taking part in cancel culture for voting. Oh, wait.... we can't call it that, can we because Republicans are doing it so it is "defending freedom" or something.....
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Re: Georgia Election Law Controversy

Sat Mar 27, 2021 4:09 pm

I don't remember if it was a D or an R run city that passed an ordinance against the general public giving food to homeless people. So there's some kind of public health precedence for not being able to hand out food to the general public, unless you are licensed to...
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Re: Georgia Election Law Controversy

Sat Mar 27, 2021 4:09 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Good for Georgia and doing this. But I understand the 'outrage' of the left, they want to force HR1 and have the elections be federally regulated, which is completely against federalism and unconstitutional.

I think Georgia should have gone farther, and have people voting only in election day.

If voting is so hard for you, then probably you should not vote.

The party of Qanon and Jim Crow *makes* voting hard, for very specific people, so that they do not vote--and in this case while they're being sued for billions of dollars for pathologically lying about voter fraud they can NEVER prove. The same Georgia politicians literally just finished telling their own party and party leader there was no fraud for the millionth time--so what is the barrier for? There is a reason why one neighborhood has no wait, while another one has 7 hours. It is 100% on purpose.

Aaron747 wrote:
WIederling wrote:
c933103 wrote:
That's really US's problem, but for service workers it doesn't change much given supermarkets and fast food stall would still open on weekends.
Closing at 8pm is probably also too early


Higher throughput, more polling stations.
I've never in my life queued more than 5 minutes for voting in any of the Kommunal-, Landtags- or Bundestags- Wahlen here in Germany.


Germans are known for being organized. About 40+ US states - not so much. Have you seen our airport diagrams? :boggled:

I suspect there isn't a German party that runs the elections and ensures that certain neighborhoods have no wait to vote, while the majority minority neighborhood next door has a 7 hour wait...for reasons. Oh and now everyone needs a very specific form of identification that you can get at any DMV, and in your neighborhood there are several DMVs with no wait, while for some strange coincidence the DMV in the majority minority neighborhood has been recently closed for uh...cost cutting or something. But you can drive to any of the DMVs that are an hour away so it's not racist! Even though few people in the majority minority neighborhood have cars. Republicans very specifically look at the voting patterns of people they don't want to vote, and then prohibit or throw up road blocks. They noticed black people vote on Sundays, for example, and so attempted to prohibit that for....reasons.

DIRECTFLT wrote:
I don't remember if it was a D or an R run city that passed an ordinance against the general public giving food to homeless people. So there's some kind of public health precedence for not being able to hand out food to the general public, unless you are licensed to...

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Re: Georgia Election Law Controversy

Sat Mar 27, 2021 4:16 pm

First of all, the Covid-19 pandemic led to the unprecedented and massive use of voting by mail and early voting in the USA in 2020 and likely critical factors in Biden/Harris, the Democrats, winning as US President/VP by the Electoral College vote, of 2 Democrats winning in special run-off election for US Senate in Georgia. Although Republicans kept control of most states, gained seats in but not control of the US House (including from Georgia, & Colorado some real Trumpian extremists) losing the White House and Senate pushed them out of power and control in the Federal Government. As by close losses in Georgia and in states Trump lost the EC vote from in 2020 but won in 2016, the party wants revenge, to find any way to regain power, mainly by limiting most likely Democrat party voters, in particular Black voters with this recent bill in Georgia and similar bills in other states.

Unlike most countries, our elections are handled by the States with minimal involvement of the Federal government. Within states large cities or regional governments (usually Counties) operate the elections and maintain voter registration records.We don't have a 'national' ID, so rely on state issued ID's, the usual default drivers licenses or non-drivers ID's also issued by state motor vehicle and drivers licensing agencies. Some for personal or no real need don't have 'proper' ID to the standard of some want for voting. There were isolated pockets of issues of vote by mail, like in Paterson, NJ in a city election in mid-2020 and as so much volume of mail voting, different rules from state to state as to when ballots would be accepted, last date of postmarking (usually the election day), limiting drop off boxes caused some to wonder if counted were being rigged in favor of Democrats. Some also want to limit elections expenses, especially in small counties, to mandate early election facilities and 'no-excuse' vote by mail.

As to the water/snacks to long line of voters, as others noted, it might be considered as 'electioneering' already banned within election sites or within a certain distance adjacent to them. Likely Republicans believe most would be done by Democratic candidates in Black voting districts that often have long lines at voting sites intentionally created to discourage their votes.

To me, we need the Federal bill HR 1 (perhaps with some mods to remove flaws) and a specific Federal Constitutional right to vote as absolute as we see the 2nd Amendment as to gun possession and limits on regulation.
 
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Re: Georgia Election Law Controversy

Sat Mar 27, 2021 4:17 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Federalism essentially guarantees that we'll never have procedures working the same no matter where Americans live.

That said within the context of a state election, any comment on items 1-4 in the OP?


I don't think that's a feature of federalism, that's the feature of US states liking being different for the sake of it. Many rules are more harmonized between EU countries despite it not being a federation.

US elections could have the exact same rules everywhere and still be run by local officials, I don't see the problem with that. In fact at least half the US citizens don't seem to have a problem with that. The other half think it means they can't win elections that way and thus screwing around with elections is a good idea.
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Re: Georgia Election Law Controversy

Sat Mar 27, 2021 4:55 pm

I'd add that this goes far beyond simple Jim Crow, and into simply letting the GOP decide whose votes count period, even after the fact.

"It removes Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger, a Republican who famously stood up to Trump’s attempts to overturn the election results in Georgia, from his role as both chair and voting member of the board. The new chair would be appointed by the legislature, which already appoints two members of the five-person board — meaning that a full majority of the board will now be appointed by the Republican-dominated body."

"The new bill would allow Republicans to seize control of how elections are administered in Fulton County and other heavily Democratic areas, disqualifying voters and ballots as they see fit."

https://www.vox.com/22352112/georgia-vo ... -explained

For those thinking that 'if you want to vote bad enough you should just show up to vote' should think about what would happen if the roles were reversed, and Democrats seized control of your county because they didn't like the way votes were being counted, or who was voting. It's end to end voter suppression: republicans make it more difficult to physically vote, make it more difficult to scrounge up the identification need to vote, and then if you manage to jump through those two hoops, they can just takeover the whole process and decide your vote was fraudulent and needs to be purged. It'd be comical how hard they are trying to suppress the vote if it wasn't also so fascist.
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Re: Georgia Election Law Controversy

Sat Mar 27, 2021 9:42 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Criticism of the absentee ID requirements is understandable but as long as alternatives are fairly available for those without drivers' licenses (utility bills proving address, W-2, bank statements, etc.) I don't see a logical reason to have an issue with it.


I would not mind seeing an actual voting card with picture that validates US and state citizenship. The GOP argues current methods do not validate citizenship. I can see that argument; a driver's license can be issued to expats to green-card holders.

Aaron747 wrote:
Where they lost me and where the measures start to look petty, punitive, and targeted to suppress turnout are the following:

1. Limiting drop box locations. As long as the boxes are secure, there is no logical reason to require them to be located only inside early voting locations.
2. Reducing runoff voting to one week before election day. What was wrong with having a three week early voting period? This ensures people with almost any work situation are able to vote.
3. Removing authority from county election boards - this clearly looks like a technique to legally justify changing undesirable outcomes at the state level.
4. Prohibition of food/water assistance to people waiting in line. This is just nuts - unless the state will massively expand voting hours or drop box locations, long lines like we saw last year will return. Ridiculous and inhumane. The law notes that election workers can set up water tables. What if they don't? Someone can get arrested for bringing their wife / grandmother water? Total BS.


These are all forms of voter suppression (#3 is especially scary), and do nothing to improve the validation of votes, and I hope Stacy Abrams brings down the hammer to the GOP party in the 2022 governor race. Since they've made these changes as part of their campaign, the GOP won't be able to hide from it like they've done in the past.

MaverickM11 wrote:
"It removes Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger, a Republican who famously stood up to Trump’s attempts to overturn the election results in Georgia, from his role as both chair and voting member of the board. The new chair would be appointed by the legislature, which already appoints two members of the five-person board — meaning that a full majority of the board will now be appointed by the Republican-dominated body."

"The new bill would allow Republicans to seize control of how elections are administered in Fulton County and other heavily Democratic areas, disqualifying voters and ballots as they see fit."


Brad messed with the bull and got the horns. I say bring H.R. 1. Voting practices and rules should not differ state-by-state.

I'll also add Governor Kemp in Georgia is in a peculiar position for the 2022 Georgia governor race, so he's probably trying to do everything in his power to get Trump's approval back and not to get "primaried" (as Trump liked saying to threaten deviants in the GOP).
 
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Re: Georgia Election Law Controversy

Sat Mar 27, 2021 10:04 pm

Let's also not forget that Gov. Kemp oversaw an election he was running in. He was running for governor against Stacy Abrahms. But, instead of recusing himself from the tally, he remained as Secretary Of State in Georgia. HUGE conflict of interest. Now, he is guaranteeing his party, the party of MAGA, will be the only ones in control of Georgia. Until his plan backfires in 2022!
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Re: Georgia Election Law Controversy

Sat Mar 27, 2021 10:17 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Good for Georgia and doing this. But I understand the 'outrage' of the left, they want to force HR1 and have the elections be federally regulated, which is completely against federalism and unconstitutional.

I think Georgia should have gone farther, and have people voting only in election day.

If voting is so hard for you, then probably you should not vote.


Okay I'll bite..You only want people to vote on election day...So you're okay with disenfranchise military members, other government workers, employees of private businesses that are assigned overseas? How about the election poll workers that have to vote early? How about the disabled that can't make it to a polling location? How about the ones that go to their polling location and find the ballots haven't been delivered or the voting machines aren't working, do they lose their right to vote or wait hours until the problem is solve? Myself, I like to vote at home, and researching ballot initiatives while drinking my favorite adult beverage...Voting by mail has been ultra popular in the states that allow it. In some states like Washington, Oregon, Utah, Colorado it's the only approved method to cast your ballot.

This year’s August primary in Arizona showed similar results. The vast majority—88 percent—of voters cast their ballots early, and most of them by mail.

https://www.sightline.org/2020/09/14/in ... e-by-mail/
 
NIKV69
Posts: 14214
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

Re: Georgia Election Law Controversy

Sat Mar 27, 2021 10:20 pm

Israel does elections properly. I would love to see all elections in the USA on Fed and State level done the same way.
90 Day Fiancé has taught me that Russian woman are excellent.
 
FGITD
Posts: 1488
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:44 pm

Re: Georgia Election Law Controversy

Sat Mar 27, 2021 10:44 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
Israel does elections properly. I would love to see all elections in the USA on Fed and State level done the same way.


I would too. Israel bans a party from elections if they meet they do any of the following:

1. Negating the State of Israel as the state of the Jewish people
2. Negating the democratic nature of the State
3. Incitement to racism
4. Support of armed struggle against the State of Israel


I’m all for it. But I’m actually a little worried as to how the US would carry out elections until a new opposition party formed.

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