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marcelh
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Jun 20, 2021 2:36 pm

YES!!!!!!!!!
VER 1
HAM 2
PER 3
BOT 4
 
CRJockey
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:02 pm

Excellent racing today. Congrats to all, but man, pulled Red Bull the strategy off with Max delivering the exact pace needed.

Congrats RIC as well, best race of the year, getting there.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Jun 20, 2021 7:11 pm

Nice exciting race, this is what F1 should be all about. Great victory for Verstappe
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
marcelh
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Jun 20, 2021 8:39 pm

CRJockey wrote:
Excellent racing today. Congrats to all, but man, pulled Red Bull the strategy off with Max delivering the exact pace needed.

Congrats RIC as well, best race of the year, getting there.

Both McLaren drivers were great. Norris best of the rest and Ricciardo had a solid drive with a lot of overtaking.
 
CRJockey
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Jun 20, 2021 8:50 pm

marcelh wrote:
CRJockey wrote:
Excellent racing today. Congrats to all, but man, pulled Red Bull the strategy off with Max delivering the exact pace needed.

Congrats RIC as well, best race of the year, getting there.

Both McLaren drivers were great. Norris best of the rest and Ricciardo had a solid drive with a lot of overtaking.


No argument there. Norris delivering superbly again.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Jun 20, 2021 11:36 pm

Paul Ricard offering an exciting race? Hell must be frozen solid now.
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StarAC17
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:37 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Paul Ricard offering an exciting race? Hell must be frozen solid now.


My lockdown activity in January was binge watching Drive to Survive and has got me into F1 when it was kind of an afterthought for me in the past.

Good time to pay attention to what seems to be the most exciting season in some time.
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CRJockey
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Wed Jun 23, 2021 6:19 pm

StarAC17 wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Paul Ricard offering an exciting race? Hell must be frozen solid now.


My lockdown activity in January was binge watching Drive to Survive and has got me into F1 when it was kind of an afterthought for me in the past.

Good time to pay attention to what seems to be the most exciting season in some time.


Wow. That is in exact detail how it went for me. January Drive to Survive, afterthought and all.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Thu Jun 24, 2021 1:47 am

StarAC17 wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Paul Ricard offering an exciting race? Hell must be frozen solid now.


My lockdown activity in January was binge watching Drive to Survive and has got me into F1 when it was kind of an afterthought for me in the past.

Good time to pay attention to what seems to be the most exciting season in some time.


Indeed - and here's another shocking news: a new track layout has been approved for Abu Dhabi in order to spice up racing, to be ready by this year's race!

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/abu- ... k/6593146/
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scbriml
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Jun 27, 2021 9:41 am

Qualifying result for the Styrian GP at the Red Bull Ring.
Image
Source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/latest

It's now becoming clear that the Red Bull is the best car this season. Verstappen seems to be on course for his first championship. Bottas has a three place grid drop for his bizarre spin as he exited his pit box in FP3. A superb P4 for Norris (will be P3 on grid after Bottas penalty) with Ricciardo a distant P13. Also good qualifying for both Alpha Tauri drivers, although Tsunoda gets a three place drop for impeding Bottas. Less than one second separating the top ten, but then you'd kind of expect that on such a short lap.
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Jun 27, 2021 10:51 am

Thanks to Yuki's penalty, Williams has the best of both worlds, a top 10 starting position, AND a free tyre choice at the start!
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Flanker7
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Jun 27, 2021 2:33 pm

A solid win for Max, great performance.
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akiss20
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Jun 27, 2021 8:52 pm

Man George cannot catch a break! He has the worst luck in the world.

Shame it didn't last a few more laps, would've been great to see Perez try and pass Bottas. Good showing from RB overall. Solid comeback for Ferrari.
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scbriml
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Jun 27, 2021 10:52 pm

akiss20 wrote:
Shame it didn't last a few more laps, would've been great to see Perez try and pass Bottas.


I think he'd have only needed one more lap. However, that shouldn't have been needed given how comfortably the Red Bulls were keeping their direct Mercedes competitor behind. An uncharacteristically poor pit stop from Red Bull ruined the race for Perez. Should have been an easy 1-3 for them.

Without external influences like a poor pit stop or exploding tyres, it seems that Red Bull has taken a significant step ahead of Mercedes now. Verstappen beating Hamilton quite comfortably, Perez ahead of Bottas in the WDC and Red Bull stretching their lead in the WCC. With Wolff saying Mercedes will not be updating their car this season, it looks like Mercedes run of championships will be coming to an end.

We're racing here again next weekend, and I don't expect much to change - the tyre compounds will all be one step softer, so we might see more teams going for a legitimate two-stop strategy.
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Jun 28, 2021 1:02 am

scbriml wrote:
An uncharacteristically poor pit stop from Red Bull ruined the race for Perez. Should have been an easy 1-3 for them.


They had the same problem with Checo at Baku.
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CRJockey
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Jun 28, 2021 7:12 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
scbriml wrote:
An uncharacteristically poor pit stop from Red Bull ruined the race for Perez. Should have been an easy 1-3 for them.


They had the same problem with Checo at Baku.


Indeed. A shame though, that Checo can‘t extract a little more of the additional performance that Max seems to get out of the car. At least not yet. Especially one-lap-pace is an area he should be able to improve considerably.

A shame as well that RIC couldn’t build on his strong first lap performance. But a mix of insufficient quali position and sheer bad luck with the power unit is enough with a midfield so close to remain out of the points. I wonder though, if the McLaren shouldn’t have been fast enough to pass RAI on track anyway.

Good show by Russell with an unlucky end.
 
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scbriml
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:44 am

CRJockey wrote:
A shame though, that Checo can‘t extract a little more of the additional performance that Max seems to get out of the car. At least not yet. Especially one-lap-pace is an area he should be able to improve considerably.


In my view what we've seen so far this season is:
In the races (apart from street circuits), Hamilton and Verstappen are way out in front compared to their respective team mates - they were both comfortably a pit stop clear of Bottas and Perez.
Bottas is generally a better qualifier than racer - we've seen it enough now to know, but just look how long it took him to get past Ricciardo.
Perez is a better racer than qualifier - I think Perez might even have got Bottas without the second stop. Bottas has become awful in traffic.
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CRJockey
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:11 pm

scbriml wrote:
CRJockey wrote:
A shame though, that Checo can‘t extract a little more of the additional performance that Max seems to get out of the car. At least not yet. Especially one-lap-pace is an area he should be able to improve considerably.


In my view what we've seen so far this season is:
In the races (apart from street circuits), Hamilton and Verstappen are way out in front compared to their respective team mates - they were both comfortably a pit stop clear of Bottas and Perez.
Bottas is generally a better qualifier than racer - we've seen it enough now to know, but just look how long it took him to get past Ricciardo.
Perez is a better racer than qualifier - I think Perez might even have got Bottas without the second stop. Bottas has become awful in traffic.


Agree with everything you say.

And yes, actually I would have thought, with a bit more patience, Perez would have caught up to Bottas even on the hards...
 
StarAC17
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:40 pm

scbriml wrote:
akiss20 wrote:
Shame it didn't last a few more laps, would've been great to see Perez try and pass Bottas.


I think he'd have only needed one more lap. However, that shouldn't have been needed given how comfortably the Red Bulls were keeping their direct Mercedes competitor behind. An uncharacteristically poor pit stop from Red Bull ruined the race for Perez. Should have been an easy 1-3 for them.

Without external influences like a poor pit stop or exploding tyres, it seems that Red Bull has taken a significant step ahead of Mercedes now. Verstappen beating Hamilton quite comfortably, Perez ahead of Bottas in the WDC and Red Bull stretching their lead in the WCC. With Wolff saying Mercedes will not be updating their car this season, it looks like Mercedes run of championships will be coming to an end.

We're racing here again next weekend, and I don't expect much to change - the tyre compounds will all be one step softer, so we might see more teams going for a legitimate two-stop strategy.


I wish they would do sprint qualifying for this upcoming race to mix it up a bit.

I tend to agree that two stops are going to happen next weekend even if the tyre compounds were the same. I skipped through the race recording and didn't realize that Checo pitted on lap 56 and Bottas was just able to hold on. I was not understanding why Checo was gaining so easily but I missed the pit stop.

Rain or a safety car aside if the result is the same whoever is behind between Hamilton and Verstappen is going to simply do the two stop when they can't close the gap with the effort to undercut coming right after.
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scbriml
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sat Jul 03, 2021 11:23 pm

Qualifying for the Austrian GP gave us further evidence, if any were needed, that Red Bull is now the class of the field with another pole for Verstappen and Perez managing P3 ahead of both Mercedes. However, the undoubted star of qualifying was Lando Norris with a superb P2 less than 5/100s behind Verstappen. While the McLaren in the hands of Norris has gone very well in qualifying, its race pace is still lacking. Without any retirements from Red Bull or Mercedes, I'll be surprised if Norris can finish higher than P5 at the end of the race.

The most likely outcome is that Verstappen and Red Bull bot extend their championship leads.

Final qualifying table:
Image
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marcelh
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Jul 04, 2021 9:56 am

Good to see a Mercedes powered MacLaren in front of Hamilton/Mercedes. Or has MacLaren also done some “bending” with rules?
 
StarAC17
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Tue Jul 06, 2021 4:05 pm

Now that was a good race. Although Verstappen ran away with it if you paid attention to the rest it was exciting.

Winners:
- Lando!! That was a great weekend for him. Starting P2 and finishing P3.
- Danny Ric: Had a P7 finish when having bad Saturday. Looking up for McLaren in General.
- Bottas: Being the only Merc on the Podium
- Ferrari: Good recovery to get both drivers in the points.
- Russell: For getting into Q3

Losers:
- Ocon: He is in a slump
- Hamilton: Losing downforce forcing a P4 finish.
- Checo: Getting pushed into the gravel by Lando and then doing it twice to Leclerc.
- Russell: Winner for Q3 appearance but still no points.
- Aston Martin: A bad day at the office especially for Seb.

Also sad but unexpected news the Australian GP has been cancelled for the 2nd year in a row.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... iZRUU.html

I wonder what they will add in place?

I would like to see them go back to Bahrain and do the Sakhir loop again and end the season with a Middle East triple header. I happen to really like the night races for whatever reason.
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Boeing74741R
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Wed Jul 07, 2021 3:50 pm

Is it just me who thinks Mercedes will be under pressure to produce a winning result at the British Grand Prix?

I know the season still has a long way to go, but we've heard about how Paul Ricard was supposedly a Merc-friendly track that went Red Bull's way due to a strategy error and Silverstone is being touted the same. I can see alarm bells starting to ring if either/both Red Bulls finish ahead of the Mercs again.

Regardless, I'm loving the straight fight that's finally happening this year after several consecutive seasons of Mercedes dominance and partly because challenges from other teams in previous years such as Ferrari faded away.
 
StarAC17
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Wed Jul 07, 2021 5:40 pm

Boeing74741R wrote:
Is it just me who thinks Mercedes will be under pressure to produce a winning result at the British Grand Prix?

I know the season still has a long way to go, but we've heard about how Paul Ricard was supposedly a Merc-friendly track that went Red Bull's way due to a strategy error and Silverstone is being touted the same. I can see alarm bells starting to ring if either/both Red Bulls finish ahead of the Mercs again.

Regardless, I'm loving the straight fight that's finally happening this year after several consecutive seasons of Mercedes dominance and partly because challenges from other teams in previous years such as Ferrari faded away.


They are and will be doing upgrades for Silverstone. If Mercedes can't close the gap before the break then they have serious pressure and have probably lost this year.

I do not expect Verstappen to continue dominating like this throughout the season even though him and Redbull are the team to beat now.

I'm excited for Silverstone as it's the first race that will be doing sprint qualifying.
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scbriml
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Wed Jul 07, 2021 11:15 pm

Boeing74741R wrote:
Is it just me who thinks Mercedes will be under pressure to produce a winning result at the British Grand Prix?

I know the season still has a long way to go, but we've heard about how Paul Ricard was supposedly a Merc-friendly track that went Red Bull's way due to a strategy error and Silverstone is being touted the same. I can see alarm bells starting to ring if either/both Red Bulls finish ahead of the Mercs again.

Regardless, I'm loving the straight fight that's finally happening this year after several consecutive seasons of Mercedes dominance and partly because challenges from other teams in previous years such as Ferrari faded away.


It seems they do have some updates coming for Silverstone, but I think it may already be too late.

While the first few races were very close, since the Azerbaijan GP, Red Bull is as dominant as Mercedes has been. I can't see Mercedes clawing this one back like they did in 2017 and 2018 when Ferrari were leading at the halfway point. The two main reasons for that are the budget cap and the massive changes for 2022. No team can afford to get 2022 wrong by spending too many resources on 2021.

StarAC17 wrote:
If Mercedes can't close the gap before the break then they have serious pressure and have probably lost this year.


I suspect it's already too late, such is Red Bull's advantage.
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Boeing74741R
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Thu Jul 08, 2021 11:43 am

StarAC17 wrote:
I do not expect Verstappen to continue dominating like this throughout the season even though him and Redbull are the team to beat now.


Yep, I do expect a number of races where Verstappen/Red Bull won't be on top form, though it will be up to the others to take advantage if that opportunity presents itself. Just avoid pressing the 'Magic' button on the steering wheel. ;)

scbriml wrote:
The two main reasons for that are the budget cap and the massive changes for 2022. No team can afford to get 2022 wrong by spending too many resources on 2021..


Indeed. Red Bull will know from experience how far behind Mercedes they were in 2014 after winning both titles the season before when the V6 hybrid era began. Admittedly Renault didn't produce a great engine at the start of the V6 hybrid era and Ricciardo managed to get a few wins that year, albeit they were all at races where Mercedes were hampered by mechanical issues and that collision in Belgium between Rosberg and Hamilton. Ferrari and McLaren were off the pace for the first part of 2009 when the rules changed after the Massa v Hamilton title fight the season before.

Then conversely, there was the time in 1993 when Ross Brawn made the call for Benetton to focus on 1994 which ultimately led to Schumacher winning his first of many titles as their car was the one to beat with the Williams FW16 being an awful car initially until the revised version came out in response to the post-Imola rule changes. Admittedly, the final agreement to ditch active suspension, traction control and bring in refuelling was reached late in the day during 1993.

So the lessons from history are there to be learnt from when it comes to deciding how much to focus on this year with rule changes looming.
 
Flanker7
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sat Jul 17, 2021 4:07 pm

Max takes pole position after winning the sprint race just now. That's 4 poles in a row.
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marcelh
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Jul 18, 2021 2:12 pm

Hamilton kicked Verstappen out.
 
petertenthije
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Jul 18, 2021 2:35 pm

marcelh wrote:
Hamilton kicked Verstappen out.

Incredible team radio from Hamilton: "I was ahead going in there, man ... fully alongside, it was my line".
Yes, of course he was... that would explain why Haimlton's front left wheel touched Max's right REAR wheel.

Hamilton could have moved a bit further to the right, but this will probably be put down as a racing incident.
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marcelh
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Jul 18, 2021 2:44 pm

petertenthije wrote:
marcelh wrote:
Hamilton kicked Verstappen out.

Incredible team radio from Hamilton: "I was ahead going in there, man ... fully alongside, it was my line".
Yes, of course he was... that would explain why Haimlton's front left wheel touched Max's right REAR wheel.

Hamilton could have moved a bit further to the right, but this will probably be put down as a racing incident.


Hamilton was not the race line and on the dirt. And Verstappen was ahead of him (look at the on board from Hamilton his car). Because Hamilton was on the dirt, he understeered and hit Verstappen on the rear.
 
marcelh
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Jul 18, 2021 2:49 pm

10 seconds penalty, what a joke
 
Flanker7
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Jul 18, 2021 3:04 pm

He was not on his race line otherwise not 10sec penalty. Indeed a joke.
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petertenthije
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Jul 18, 2021 3:12 pm

marcelh wrote:
10 seconds penalty, what a joke

Dit not expect anything else.

It used to be FIA = Ferrari International Assistance. Let's just say those days are over and leave it at that.
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marcelh
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Jul 18, 2021 4:03 pm

Judas has won…..
 
yonahleung
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Jul 18, 2021 4:32 pm

Just a ridiculous race...Max could have easily been killed by this incident if not for the safety features of the modern day F1 cars...
Hamilton is some of the most dangerous drivers on the grid if you are ahead of him in a Red Bull... ALB x2 and now VER
 
Boeing74741R
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Jul 18, 2021 4:51 pm

Great drive to win the race from Hamilton, but I can’t say victory was deserved after the first lap crash and I’d say Hamilton was lucky to get away with a 10 second penalty. It could have been a lot worse for Verstappen if it wasn’t for the safety advances made over the years. Crashing into the wall backwards at high speed must be painful.
 
petertenthije
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Jul 18, 2021 5:02 pm

yonahleung wrote:
Hamilton is some of the most dangerous drivers on the grid if you are ahead of him in a Red Bull... ALB x2 and now VER
Maybe he should stop being a F1 race driver, and just be given the keys of the safety car.

So many people call him the greatest of all times. He might have the titles, but I am not at all convinced he is the GOAT. Clearly he knows how to handle a car, and how to set it up. But that's just part of the game. A large part of the game is mental. And he does not seem to handle pressure well at all! He's had it easy for so many years, having a clearly superior car. Now he has to properly race, and is making the same mistakes that in previous seasons he would rightly bemoan the rookies for.
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Pampot70
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Jul 18, 2021 5:07 pm

Zero-zero-lewis licence to kill. I am not sure about the rules, but was the red flag with alignment in the pit lane really needed? That allowed the necessary repairs on the car, instead of a safety car unscheduled visit to the pits which would set that Brit in last position. 10 seconds is an invitation to do it again, be him or anyone else. That famous FIA stripped Schumacher of 67 points in 1997 for much less, just saying...
 
marcelh
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Jul 18, 2021 5:41 pm

Pampot70 wrote:
Zero-zero-lewis licence to kill. I am not sure about the rules, but was the red flag with alignment in the pit lane really needed? That allowed the necessary repairs on the car, instead of a safety car unscheduled visit to the pits which would set that Brit in last position. 10 seconds is an invitation to do it again, be him or anyone else. That famous FIA stripped Schumacher of 67 points in 1997 for much less, just saying...

Red flag was necessary because the barrier had to be repaired where VER crashed.
 
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scbriml
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Jul 19, 2021 12:09 am

If the roles were reversed, all the Verstappen fans would be praising his uncompromising driving style. When Verstappen bangs wheels and comes out ahead, it's just hard racing, but when it doesn't work, the other driver is suddenly a murderer.

Pampot70 wrote:
Zero-zero-lewis licence to kill. I am not sure about the rules, but was the red flag with alignment in the pit lane really needed?


Yes, because Verstappen's car was electrically unsafe and had to be removed (hence a long delay) and, more importantly, the barrier also had to be repaired which involves heavy vehicles on track.

marcelh wrote:
10 seconds is an invitation to do it again


Or it's a measure of the degree the stewards found Hamilton to blame?

petertenthije wrote:
Now he has to properly race, and is making the same mistakes that in previous seasons he would rightly bemoan the rookies for.


You'd be saying the same about Verstappen if the roles were reversed, right? Or would it just be hard racing?
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marcelh
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Jul 19, 2021 4:49 am

scbriml wrote:
If the roles were reversed, all the Verstappen fans would be praising his uncompromising driving style. When Verstappen bangs wheels and comes out ahead, it's just hard racing, but when it doesn't work, the other driver is suddenly a murderer.

Wheels banging is fine, as long as both drivers can continue the race without damage. I think VER has learned some lessons in the past. Last year with LEC in Austria was hard racing and LEC didn’t ended in the wall.
Yesterday, VER and HAM did hard racing in the first corners, but gave each other just enough room. HAM saw he was losing and went for a desperate move, off the race line and the apex. The stewards gave a penalty, so no discussion about who’s to blame; that’s obviously HAM.
Hard racing isn’t equal to kicking out your competitor in a 180MPH corner “Schumacher style”. HAM has motivated RBR and VER just more to go for the title. HAM and Mercedes are under pressure and can’t
win by complaining about rear wings and “too fast pit stops”, so they try dirty racing. It’s 1-0 for HAM half time but the equalizer will come before the match is done. I’m already looking forward to the reactions….
 
astuteman
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Jul 19, 2021 6:37 am

marcelh wrote:
scbriml wrote:
If the roles were reversed, all the Verstappen fans would be praising his uncompromising driving style. When Verstappen bangs wheels and comes out ahead, it's just hard racing, but when it doesn't work, the other driver is suddenly a murderer.

Wheels banging is fine, as long as both drivers can continue the race without damage. I think VER has learned some lessons in the past. Last year with LEC in Austria was hard racing and LEC didn’t ended in the wall.
Yesterday, VER and HAM did hard racing in the first corners, but gave each other just enough room. HAM saw he was losing and went for a desperate move, off the race line and the apex. The stewards gave a penalty, so no discussion about who’s to blame; that’s obviously HAM.
Hard racing isn’t equal to kicking out your competitor in a 180MPH corner “Schumacher style”. HAM has motivated RBR and VER just more to go for the title. HAM and Mercedes are under pressure and can’t
win by complaining about rear wings and “too fast pit stops”, so they try dirty racing. It’s 1-0 for HAM half time but the equalizer will come before the match is done. I’m already looking forward to the reactions….


In terms of racing hard in the first few corners and "giving each other space", what I saw was that, even when ahead, as at the end of the Wellington straight, Hamilton left enough room for Verstappen to take the corner and regain the lead.

It is also true that at Copse, Hamilton was substantially alongside Verstappen until he realised he was going to have to pull out because Verstappen wasn't going to give him space.

The rules say that if a car has "a significant overlap" then it can take the corner provided it is taken cleanly.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/57882992

Mercedes boss Toto Wolff made reference after the race to the stewards' overtaking guidelines, which he said allowed Hamilton to make the move.

These are not distributed publicly, but they have been seen by BBC Sport. They contain images of two cars on entry to a corner, and illustrate when a driver trying to pass has the right to claim it.

They state that if the driver on the inside has "a significant overlap" then "the corner is yours provided you make the corner cleanly". In the image in this illustration, the overtaking car is not even as far alongside as Hamilton was as they turned into Copse on Sunday.


According to the quotes from key drivers, such as Leclerc (who had the best view of anyone), and Alonso, they thought that this was nothing more than a racing accident brought about by hard driving. Neither of those are British, to my knowledge, and Alonso at least has good reason not to cut Hamilton any slack. And Leclerc experienced a virtual repeat of the situation when Hamilton finally overtook him, but lived to fight another day, and take second place, and a lot of points :scratchchin:

Ferrari's Charles Leclerc was right behind the collision and inherited the lead after it, and lost what would have been his first victory of the year when Hamilton passed him for the win with two laps to go. He said: "It is a racing incident. It is quite difficult to put the blame on one or the other.

"There was space on the inside. Maybe Lewis was not completely at the apex but it is also true Max was quite aggressive on the outside. Things happen. The most important today is Max is unharmed and is fine."

And Fernando Alonso, a two-time world champion, who has passed people around the outside of Copse a number of times in his career - including in the sprint race on Saturday - said: "Lewis had more than half a car alongside Max, so in a way Lewis could not disappear from that inside line. You can't vanish. So it was an unfortunate moment but nothing intentional and nothing that any of the two drivers did wrong."


I understand that it was dramatic, and I understand that it was a seminal moment in the 2021 championship.
I also understand that the fanboy effect drives a lot of emotion into moments like this
If the quote in the BBC article is correct, it could be argued that the stewards were a bit hard on Hamilton. I'm not going to be hard over on that one way or the other.

But when the experienced drivers that were around the accident say it was a racing accident, I'm inclined to trust their judgement.
I'm pretty sure they know a lot more than armchair internet fans.

It's just possible that one of the lessons from this for Verstappen is that the championship is a marathon, not a sprint, and assuming that you can automatically muscle your way through every situation without consequence is a sure fire way of experiencing accidents that put the championship at risk.
Had Verstappen acted like Hamilton did in earlier corners (irrespective of "right" or "wrong"), the chances are he might have run wide, been passed, and worst case come second, or more likely, caught Hamilton under DRS a few laps later and won anyway.
Who knows?

Rgds
 
UA947
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Jul 19, 2021 6:56 am

VER impact with the wall was calculated at 51G.
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Boeing74741R
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Jul 19, 2021 8:44 am

scbriml wrote:
Pampot70 wrote:
Zero-zero-lewis licence to kill. I am not sure about the rules, but was the red flag with alignment in the pit lane really needed?


Yes, because Verstappen's car was electrically unsafe and had to be removed (hence a long delay) and, more importantly, the barrier also had to be repaired which involves heavy vehicles on track.


The images of Romain Grosjean crashing into the barrier and his car going up in flames last year was no doubt fresh in the minds of the race director and the stewards when making the red flag call. I agree it was different circumstances, but the lesson from that is that any barriers must be in tip top condition and their effectiveness and safety of drivers isn't compromised if they're in a damaged state in the event of another crash.
 
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Aesma
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Jul 19, 2021 9:36 am

petertenthije wrote:
yonahleung wrote:
Hamilton is some of the most dangerous drivers on the grid if you are ahead of him in a Red Bull... ALB x2 and now VER
Maybe he should stop being a F1 race driver, and just be given the keys of the safety car.

So many people call him the greatest of all times. He might have the titles, but I am not at all convinced he is the GOAT. Clearly he knows how to handle a car, and how to set it up. But that's just part of the game. A large part of the game is mental. And he does not seem to handle pressure well at all! He's had it easy for so many years, having a clearly superior car. Now he has to properly race, and is making the same mistakes that in previous seasons he would rightly bemoan the rookies for.


What you say applies to Verstappen too. He had a large margin in the championship, from there it's almost impossible to lose even if you finish 2nd for most remaining races, it's time to be careful. But no, he races as hard as usual, and for once it doesn't go his way.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
marcelh
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Jul 19, 2021 9:36 am

astuteman wrote:
marcelh wrote:
scbriml wrote:
If the roles were reversed, all the Verstappen fans would be praising his uncompromising driving style. When Verstappen bangs wheels and comes out ahead, it's just hard racing, but when it doesn't work, the other driver is suddenly a murderer.

Wheels banging is fine, as long as both drivers can continue the race without damage. I think VER has learned some lessons in the past. Last year with LEC in Austria was hard racing and LEC didn’t ended in the wall.
Yesterday, VER and HAM did hard racing in the first corners, but gave each other just enough room. HAM saw he was losing and went for a desperate move, off the race line and the apex. The stewards gave a penalty, so no discussion about who’s to blame; that’s obviously HAM.
Hard racing isn’t equal to kicking out your competitor in a 180MPH corner “Schumacher style”. HAM has motivated RBR and VER just more to go for the title. HAM and Mercedes are under pressure and can’t
win by complaining about rear wings and “too fast pit stops”, so they try dirty racing. It’s 1-0 for HAM half time but the equalizer will come before the match is done. I’m already looking forward to the reactions….


In terms of racing hard in the first few corners and "giving each other space", what I saw was that, even when ahead, as at the end of the Wellington straight, Hamilton left enough room for Verstappen to take the corner and regain the lead.

It is also true that at Copse, Hamilton was substantially alongside Verstappen until he realised he was going to have to pull out because Verstappen wasn't going to give him space.

The rules say that if a car has "a significant overlap" then it can take the corner provided it is taken cleanly.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/57882992

Mercedes boss Toto Wolff made reference after the race to the stewards' overtaking guidelines, which he said allowed Hamilton to make the move.

These are not distributed publicly, but they have been seen by BBC Sport. They contain images of two cars on entry to a corner, and illustrate when a driver trying to pass has the right to claim it.

They state that if the driver on the inside has "a significant overlap" then "the corner is yours provided you make the corner cleanly". In the image in this illustration, the overtaking car is not even as far alongside as Hamilton was as they turned into Copse on Sunday.


According to the quotes from key drivers, such as Leclerc (who had the best view of anyone), and Alonso, they thought that this was nothing more than a racing accident brought about by hard driving. Neither of those are British, to my knowledge, and Alonso at least has good reason not to cut Hamilton any slack. And Leclerc experienced a virtual repeat of the situation when Hamilton finally overtook him, but lived to fight another day, and take second place, and a lot of points :scratchchin:

Ferrari's Charles Leclerc was right behind the collision and inherited the lead after it, and lost what would have been his first victory of the year when Hamilton passed him for the win with two laps to go. He said: "It is a racing incident. It is quite difficult to put the blame on one or the other.

"There was space on the inside. Maybe Lewis was not completely at the apex but it is also true Max was quite aggressive on the outside. Things happen. The most important today is Max is unharmed and is fine."

And Fernando Alonso, a two-time world champion, who has passed people around the outside of Copse a number of times in his career - including in the sprint race on Saturday - said: "Lewis had more than half a car alongside Max, so in a way Lewis could not disappear from that inside line. You can't vanish. So it was an unfortunate moment but nothing intentional and nothing that any of the two drivers did wrong."


I understand that it was dramatic, and I understand that it was a seminal moment in the 2021 championship.
I also understand that the fanboy effect drives a lot of emotion into moments like this
If the quote in the BBC article is correct, it could be argued that the stewards were a bit hard on Hamilton. I'm not going to be hard over on that one way or the other.

But when the experienced drivers that were around the accident say it was a racing accident, I'm inclined to trust their judgement.
I'm pretty sure they know a lot more than armchair internet fans.

It's just possible that one of the lessons from this for Verstappen is that the championship is a marathon, not a sprint, and assuming that you can automatically muscle your way through every situation without consequence is a sure fire way of experiencing accidents that put the championship at risk.
Had Verstappen acted like Hamilton did in earlier corners (irrespective of "right" or "wrong"), the chances are he might have run wide, been passed, and worst case come second, or more likely, caught Hamilton under DRS a few laps later and won anyway.
Who knows?

Rgds


Calling me a “fanboy” and “internet armchair fan” doesn’t add a lot of credibillity to your statement.

The stewards gave HAM a penalty, so it wasn’t just “a racing accident”. I’ve seen a statement from LEC on the Dutch television and it was a bit different than his statement you are referring to, so I take those statements with a grain of salt.

HAM didn’t pull out, was in the dirt, missed the apex and went too wide, not giving the car just ahead of him enough space. His plan was OK, execution only miserable. VER came to the right, because it’s a right hand corner and he was at the race line. He also kept enough space for HAM. There was only one agressive and it was HAM. VER isn’t a driver who is pulling out just because Sir HAM is very close.
 
marcelh
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Jul 19, 2021 9:41 am

Aesma wrote:
petertenthije wrote:
yonahleung wrote:
Hamilton is some of the most dangerous drivers on the grid if you are ahead of him in a Red Bull... ALB x2 and now VER
Maybe he should stop being a F1 race driver, and just be given the keys of the safety car.

So many people call him the greatest of all times. He might have the titles, but I am not at all convinced he is the GOAT. Clearly he knows how to handle a car, and how to set it up. But that's just part of the game. A large part of the game is mental. And he does not seem to handle pressure well at all! He's had it easy for so many years, having a clearly superior car. Now he has to properly race, and is making the same mistakes that in previous seasons he would rightly bemoan the rookies for.


What you say applies to Verstappen too. He had a large margin in the championship, from there it's almost impossible to lose even if you finish 2nd for most remaining races, it's time to be careful. But no, he races as hard as usual, and for once it doesn't go his way.

He was driving hard but gave enough space to let both live. HAM went wide because he was pushing too hard on the dirt. A rookie mistake made by someone who is under pressure.
 
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Aesma
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Jul 19, 2021 9:51 am

Well VER was all over the place until there, several times the wheels off the track, weaving like mad, I know who looked like a rookie ! At the time of impact VER was turning towards HAM like he wasn't there.

I'm 100% sure if VER hadn't crashed, the exact same contact between them wouldn't have led to a sanction for HAM. What was sanctioned was the consequence not the cause.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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scbriml
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Posts: 20071
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Jul 19, 2021 12:12 pm

marcelh wrote:
The stewards gave a penalty, so no discussion about who’s to blame


Well, there is still discussion because the stewards didn't say Hamilton was totally to blame. That is also reflected in the punishment handed down.

Verstappen did exactly the same thing to Perez last season and promptly blamed Perez! And was unpunished.

astuteman wrote:
It's just possible that one of the lessons from this for Verstappen is that the championship is a marathon, not a sprint, and assuming that you can automatically muscle your way through every situation without consequence is a sure fire way of experiencing accidents that put the championship at risk.


Verstappen's very aggressive style of driving has a legacy and all his fans are more than happy when it works for him. However, Verstappen has never before been in such a situation where he has more to lose than the other driver. He showed he has yet to grasp that fundamental concept - cede the corner to Hamilton and spend the next 50-odd laps fighting for the win. Worst case, lose a few points from a very comfortable lead.

Aesma wrote:
Well VER was all over the place until there, several times the wheels off the track, weaving like mad, I know who looked like a rookie ! At the time of impact VER was turning towards HAM like he wasn't there.


Indeed. Before the collision Verstappen squeezed Hamilton very hard towards the wall on the inside. It's disingenuous for people to claim Verstappen didn't know Hamilton was there - he was fully alongside at one point.
Image
Source: screen grab from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIKel6jVD3Q
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astuteman
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Jul 19, 2021 12:22 pm

marcelh wrote:
Calling me a “fanboy” and “internet armchair fan” doesn’t add a lot of credibillity to your statement.


Just as well I didn't then I guess :)
My comment was generic.
If you felt the cloth fit, of course ......

marcelh wrote:
HAM didn’t pull out, was in the dirt, missed the apex and went too wide, not giving the car just ahead of him enough space. His plan was OK, execution only miserable. VER came to the right, because it’s a right hand corner and he was at the race line. He also kept enough space for HAM. There was only one agressive and it was HAM. VER isn’t a driver who is pulling out just because Sir HAM is very close.


Looking at this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4ongTQ2N0Y

You can clearly see from 37 secs onwards, in slow motion, that Hamilton was alongside Verstappen when Verstappen started coming across to claim the apex irrespective of Hamilton being in the way.

In my view it's a bit ironic that it was Hamilton backing off that caused the front-left to rear-right impact that caused Verstappen to spin.
If he hadn't backed off, they would have impacted side-to-side.
I didn't have a view until looking at this video, but in retrospect my view is that the Stewards got this one wrong.

There was only one aggressive driver, and it wasn't HAM
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