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astuteman
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Jul 19, 2021 12:26 pm

scbriml wrote:
Verstappen's very aggressive style of driving has a legacy and all his fans are more than happy when it works for him. However, Verstappen has never before been in such a situation where he has more to lose than the other driver. He showed he has yet to grasp that fundamental concept - cede the corner to Hamilton and spend the next 50-odd laps fighting for the win. Worst case, lose a few points from a very comfortable lead.


I reckon he would have won if he had done exactly this.
Leclerc picking up 2nd place points in a slower car in almost exactly the same circumstances makes the point..
Drifted a bit wide - kicked up a bit of dust - cracked on.

Rgds
 
Reinhardt
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Jul 19, 2021 4:04 pm

Ever since Verstappen joined Red Bull he has been incredibly agressive. No doubt the sign of a very driven and determined young man, and no doubt at all he will be a very sucessful driver. However has Scbrimi said, it's for a world championship not just one race. Verstappen constantly puts people in a position where by they either have to let him through or they'll crash. Again his supporters will say that's his agressive style, but he never conceeds and moans like crazy at any opportunity about anything. That's why I'm not a fan of his, the moaning and the fact he has driven people off the road before yet he is the first to complain when someone is aggressive in return.

This is Lewis, he is behind in the championship. It isn't a Williams or Haas. That corner (unlike what Horner said) is a clear overtaking opportunity in modern single seaters. Lewis proved this later in the race by overtaking two other cars in the exactly the same place, and on the right side. Both of those cars, unlike Verstappen gave some space and backed out. Lewis had the run down the straight before on Verstappen and he pushed Lewis over and banged wheels - not needed.

Neither of them was willing to give an inch. Lewis could have been to the right a bit more, Verstappen couldn't have turned in a little less agressively or thought about the title and let him go. In all likelyhood he would have had the pace to have come back.IMO both were to blame, slightly more on Hamilton's side. There was no intent from Hamilton to put Verstappen off, or injure him and these stupid comments about the FIA are rediculous. The last few races they have handed out penalties for everyone who broke the rules, the exact rules, with no exceptions made for drivers of all nationalities (one for Noris, one for Russel, so they certainly aren't Brit biased). I think the penalty was fair. The penalty reflects the incident not the fact Verstappen ended up in a pretty major shunt, as it should.

Hamilton actually came out after the race and said that they both need to find a respectful but fair / hard way to race together. I think he's right.

The racist abuse from certain Verstappen fan boys that came on social media, as is always the case is unacceptable.
Marko's comments and Horner's comments during and after the race were borderline histerical.
 
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keesje
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Jul 19, 2021 4:10 pm

Hamilton was at fault, officially.

He drove Verstappen his major competitor out of the race, into hospital and won the race.

He was celebrating, dancing, ignoring as if nothing happened & denying any fault.

If Verstappen had done that, the dutch would call him to account. I'm amazed.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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scbriml
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Jul 19, 2021 4:56 pm

keesje wrote:
Hamilton was at fault, officially.

He drove Verstappen his major competitor out of the race, into hospital and won the race.

He was celebrating, dancing, ignoring as if nothing happened & denying any fault.

If Verstappen had done that, the dutch would call him to account. I'm amazed.


The stewards did not blame Hamilton totally. In other words, Verstappen was partly to blame. Both drivers could have avoided the collision, neither did. Hamilton marginally more to blame in the opinion of the stewards and the penalty reflected that.

Hamilton was told Verstappen was OK. The trip to hospital was entirely precautionary. To hear some people talk, you'd think Verstappen was on life-support. He was well enough to bitch-tweet whilst in hospital!

I doubt it - if the roles had been reversed, they'd be celebrating his aggressive, no-nonsense driving. Just as Horner did in Barcleona when Hamilton took avoiding action in response to another aggressive move from Verstappen. He said “Turn 1 was mega. I mean Max, that was full Max Verstappen – he was just going for it – and he positioned the car fantastically well,” said Horner after the Spanish GP. “He tucked in, he got a little bit of a tow and a bit of momentum. And yeah he just braked later and ran the car wide. Thankfully Lewis had got out of it because otherwise he would have ended up in the fence,” he added. So apparently, aggressive driving is OK as long as the other driver backs out and his driver stays ahead.

Verstappen didn't see the big picture. Aggressive driving and a "I never give up the corner" attitude is fine when you have nothing to lose. Verstappen failed to understand that he's now in a position where he has more to lose than the other driver.
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keesje
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Jul 19, 2021 10:44 pm

I think many were surprized watching Lewis celebrating his win the way he did, knowing what happened. Also about the flexibility of the UK press. Max would have received totally different feed-back from his countrymen if he had done this.

Lewis made the choice to celebrate the way he did and downplay / deny his role in the crash. So now he is entitled to learn how others feel about his approach.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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scbriml
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Jul 19, 2021 11:17 pm

keesje wrote:
[*]I thinks many were surprized watching Lewis celebrating his win the way he did, knowing what happened. Also about the flexibility of the UK press. Max would have received totally different feed-back from his countrymen if he had done this.

Lewis made the choice to celebrate the way he did and downplay / deny his role in the crash. So now he is entitled to learn how others feel about his approach.


Hamilton asked on the radio if Verstappen was OK and was told he was. He was only told that Verstappen went to hospital in the post race press interviews. Verstappen had no issue celebrating in Bahrain last season after Grosjean had his massive crash. Somewhat hypocritical of him to call out Hamilton in his passive-aggressive Tweet from his hospital!

Again, his fans love his aggression when it works, this time he was met with equal aggression and it didn't work out. Maybe he'll learn.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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GayFA
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Tue Jul 20, 2021 10:34 am

Muy buenos a todos,

not much of a contributor but I have to admit, that yesterdays race got the emotions a little higher than usual. And I read some very good posts above I'd like to comment on.

My first reaction was a deep feeling of unfairness towards Verstappen and a usually subtle bias pro Mercedes and Lewis. Irregardless of the sport I feel there is always a bit of subtle and subconscious, but very much present, bias towards the icons / prominent teams of the sport.

But I have to admit that upon reflection I am very much in the camp of
scbriml wrote:
[...]
and
astuteman wrote:
[...]
. Verstappen should have taken the long term view of things for a) the race itself and b) the championship.

Verstappens defense in lap 1 was borderline with him pushing Hamilton to the wall actually over the border of "hard but fair" racing in my opinion. I don't share the Rookie comments though, otherwise Alonso should have been target of the same comments after F1 Sprint on Saturday.

Verstappen needs to learn that he can only bully himself through if he is in for race wins. If he is in for the championship, some balance adjustment is needed.
It would have been an easy P2 for him worst case and a >50% probability for P1 if he would have just backed out a bit at turn 9. I am not even convinced Hamilton would have completed the overtake even with Max going a bit wide.
As others have said, with a superior car and 32 points up you can afford quite some P2s before you need to take more risk.
Learn and grow Max and you are in for a superb career.

With regards to Lewis: yes, his trajectory wasn't exactly apex, but going into a 280kph turn missing the apex by 10cm thats hardly something you can blame him for, especially off the racing line. Hence, I tend to view it as a racing accident both drivers could have avoided but weren't willing to. Bad luck for Max, a bit too much good luck for Lewis for my taste. I would have liked for them to both end in gravel. Would have done wonders for the coming races finding the balance, Lewis stresses must be found.
That said, I don't like, and never did like, his arrogant attitude. He obviously knew Max is in hospital. No chance nobody told him. And with all of Lewis' applaudable effort to bring disadvantaged people into societies focus, a little reservation during celebrations certainly wouldn't have hurt his credibility.

No words for Toto and Christian. Old whiny white guys.
 
marcelh
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:19 pm

scbriml wrote:
marcelh wrote:
The stewards gave a penalty, so no discussion about who’s to blame


Well, there is still discussion because the stewards didn't say Hamilton was totally to blame. That is also reflected in the punishment handed down.

Verstappen did exactly the same thing to Perez last season and promptly blamed Perez! And was unpunished.

“And was unpunished”. So nothing to see there according to the stewards.
astuteman wrote:
It's just possible that one of the lessons from this for Verstappen is that the championship is a marathon, not a sprint, and assuming that you can automatically muscle your way through every situation without consequence is a sure fire way of experiencing accidents that put the championship at risk.


Verstappen's very aggressive style of driving has a legacy and all his fans are more than happy when it works for him. However, Verstappen has never before been in such a situation where he has more to lose than the other driver. He showed he has yet to grasp that fundamental concept - cede the corner to Hamilton and spend the next 50-odd laps fighting for the win. Worst case, lose a few points from a very comfortable lead.

VER was in front of HAM and gave enough space to continue on, but HAM missed the apex and went wide. VER was in front of HAM so why cede the corner to HAM? HAM would have done the same when it was the other way around. I’ve seen an onboard from VER that he’s going just a bit wider because HAM went wide. It was not enough to avoid a collision.

Aesma wrote:
Well VER was all over the place until there, several times the wheels off the track, weaving like mad, I know who looked like a rookie ! At the time of impact VER was turning towards HAM like he wasn't there.


Indeed. Before the collision Verstappen squeezed Hamilton very hard towards the wall on the inside. It's disingenuous for people to claim Verstappen didn't know Hamilton was there - he was fully alongside at one point.
Image
Source: screen grab from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIKel6jVD3Q


That picture means nothing, because it’s before the corner and VER was faster. VER was defending his position and did exactly what he could do according to the rules. Weaving like mad like a rookie? ALO did the same the day before and was also allowed. He only got a warning for moving under braking. It looked VER was turning towards HAM because HAM understeered and went of his line.
 
marcelh
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:58 pm

astuteman wrote:
marcelh wrote:
Calling me a “fanboy” and “internet armchair fan” doesn’t add a lot of credibillity to your statement.


Just as well I didn't then I guess :)
My comment was generic.
If you felt the cloth fit, of course ......

It was “generic” to the VER fans, and I’m indeed a VER fan. And it’s also well known your view is somehow blurred and your tone get’s just some “sharp edges” when someone is criticizing something/someone from Britain.

marcelh wrote:
HAM didn’t pull out, was in the dirt, missed the apex and went too wide, not giving the car just ahead of him enough space. His plan was OK, execution only miserable. VER came to the right, because it’s a right hand corner and he was at the race line. He also kept enough space for HAM. There was only one agressive and it was HAM. VER isn’t a driver who is pulling out just because Sir HAM is very close.


Looking at this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4ongTQ2N0Y

You can clearly see from 37 secs onwards, in slow motion, that Hamilton was alongside Verstappen when Verstappen started coming across to claim the apex irrespective of Hamilton being in the way.


I can’t see your video (British only,I presume, but HAM was never completely alongside VER at Copse. Look at this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBrWMQ3uhRo

In my view it's a bit ironic that it was Hamilton backing off that caused the front-left to rear-right impact that caused Verstappen to spin.
If he hadn't backed off, they would have impacted side-to-side.
I didn't have a view until looking at this video, but in retrospect my view is that the Stewards got this one wrong.

VER has been punished multiple times for something you can discuss in length….. And HAM didn’t back off, he lost some momentum because he was driving in the dirt.
There was only one aggressive driver, and it wasn't HAM

This is F1, not a Sunday granny drive. It’s meant to be spectacular. Problem for a lot of people is VER is a very talented driver, but isn’t from the UK and is the only one to stop HAM becoming eightfold world champion.
 
astuteman
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Tue Jul 20, 2021 7:20 pm

marcelh wrote:
astuteman wrote:
marcelh wrote:
Calling me a “fanboy” and “internet armchair fan” doesn’t add a lot of credibillity to your statement.


Just as well I didn't then I guess :)
My comment was generic.
If you felt the cloth fit, of course ......

It was “generic” to the VER fans, and I’m indeed a VER fan. And it’s also well known your view is somehow blurred and your tone get’s just some “sharp edges” when someone is criticizing something/someone from Britain.


Well known, is it?
I'd love you to demonstrate that on this forum....
Got me pegged as "a typical nationalist Brit" eh?
Good luck with that

For what its worth I suspect you're a lot more like "an internet armchair fan" (which I don't consider to be an insult to anyone, by the way - it really was a generic comment), rather than an F1 Championship winning driver, which was what the comparison was made to.
Are you an F1 championship winning driver?
Somehow I doubt if. So if not, what are you, in this context?

marcelh wrote:
astuteman wrote:
In my view it's a bit ironic that it was Hamilton backing off that caused the front-left to rear-right impact that caused Verstappen to spin.
If he hadn't backed off, they would have impacted side-to-side.
I didn't have a view until looking at this video, but in retrospect my view is that the Stewards got this one wrong.


VER has been punished multiple times for something you can discuss in length….. And HAM didn’t back off, he lost some momentum because he was driving in the dirt.


You're kidding right? You can clearly see that he backs off. One moment they were the same speed, the next Verstappen was way ahead. No way that was "dirt"
Except in a parallel universe, perhaps

marcelh wrote:
astuteman wrote:
There was only one aggressive driver, and it wasn't HAM

This is F1, not a Sunday granny drive. It’s meant to be spectacular. Problem for a lot of people is VER is a very talented driver, but isn’t from the UK and is the only one to stop HAM becoming eightfold world champion.


So hang on. You think Hamilton was aggressive? But surely, quote "This is F1, not a Sunday granny drive. It’s meant to be spectacular."

Thank you very much for defining bigotry in a far more relevant manner :thumbsup:
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Wed Jul 21, 2021 1:49 am

Argue all you like but Hamilton was at fault. Otherwise the stewards wouldn't have given him the penalty, albeit a rather toothless one that he clawed back. And let's put it on the record that this is the third time he has punted a Red Bull car off the track. All three times the RBR car was ahead of the Mercedes-Benz, and all three times the RBR car was worse off.

Personally I think the red mist has descended over Hamilton - he was 0 for 4 over the past few races. And given how easily Max breezed through during the sprint qualifying, I've no doubt in his mind that it's do or die for the main race. It's the same thing that happened to him in Barcelona 2016 when he took out Nico Rosberg while trying to overtake. Ironically, Max was the beneficiary in that accident.

As for Max being an aggressive driver, yes he is aggressive but when was the last time he caused a highspeed accident that takes out his competitors? In fact in the past few years, he was the recipient, not the cause.

You can't condone one driver for being aggressive and yet condemn another for doing the same thing.
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astuteman
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Wed Jul 21, 2021 5:09 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
As for Max being an aggressive driver, yes he is aggressive but when was the last time he caused a highspeed accident that takes out his competitors? In fact in the past few years, he was the recipient, not the cause.

You can't condone one driver for being aggressive and yet condemn another for doing the same thing.


Priceless.
You would have thought not, wouldn't you.
And yet that is exactly what is happening on this thread and out in social media.
And in fact what you have just done with this post.
I think we get it. When Max is aggressive, that's ok. It's exciting. It's racing.
Anyone else? Not so much.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Wed Jul 21, 2021 6:27 am

astuteman wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
As for Max being an aggressive driver, yes he is aggressive but when was the last time he caused a highspeed accident that takes out his competitors? In fact in the past few years, he was the recipient, not the cause.

You can't condone one driver for being aggressive and yet condemn another for doing the same thing.


Priceless.
You would have thought not, wouldn't you.
And yet that is exactly what is happening on this thread and out in social media.
And in fact what you have just done with this post.
I think we get it. When Max is aggressive, that's ok. It's exciting. It's racing.
Anyone else? Not so much.


Not when that aggressiveness caused another driver to spear off the wall at high speed, no. When has Verstappen done this to anyone on the grid, especially in the recent past from 2019 - 2021. Do tell me.

Aggressive driving is NOT causing your opponent to crash. Do learn the difference between Max shoving Leclerc in Austria 2019 and what Hamilton did.

Honestly, Hamilton supporters are the worst. You guys are no better than Max's fans, really!
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GDB
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:03 am

astuteman wrote:
marcelh wrote:
astuteman wrote:

Just as well I didn't then I guess :)
My comment was generic.
If you felt the cloth fit, of course ......

It was “generic” to the VER fans, and I’m indeed a VER fan. And it’s also well known your view is somehow blurred and your tone get’s just some “sharp edges” when someone is criticizing something/someone from Britain.


Well known, is it?
I'd love you to demonstrate that on this forum....
Got me pegged as "a typical nationalist Brit" eh?
Good luck with that



You get that response with this one in any discussion where either their claims are unproven or just are not winning an argument.
Don't massively follow F1, though Hamilton is of course very well known both here and worldwide (bet that annoys some people given his unforgiveable crime of being British), but you only need a modicum of common sense to realize you don't get to World Champion in that sport so many times by typically being the kind of driver depicted.
That and a helping of Trumpist style whataboutery and leaning on crude stereotypes of whole nations, us.
All 67 million of us are nationalist Boris lovers apparently.

Reading a series a articles on this incident in the UK press, well the quality rational part of course, it's reported fairly with no banging the Hamilton drum I saw, then again I know where they will be and ignore them, some on here would do well to do the same with their attitudes and not make these hostile assumptions.
Still, as reported, Hamilton has been in this sport for a long time, 'dirty driver' hasn't been a label he's been known for, unless perhaps from the perma sore losers.
 
astuteman
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:34 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Honestly, Hamilton supporters are the worst. You guys are no better than Max's fans, really!


Thanks TheFlyingDisc.. Like it :)
You do see vivid polarisation between passionate fans on both sides which result in selective vision or hearing.
Won't argue with that.

I'd be cautious of leaning too much on Marcelh's entirely inappropriate (and frankly attention diverting) representation of me as the typical jingoistic Brit.
I have a lot of issues with the current state of the country I reside in, and would have no qualms about supporting other nationals who share that criticism
It is sometimes worth standing back to see where the nationalist fan behaviour actually appears from... just sayin...
I work hard to try to make my thinking more nuanced than that.

I think there were components of cause on both sides resulting from both drivers displaying strong aggression.
I don't believe that any of my comments are driven by "just being a Hamilton fanboy" - I happen to think Max is an amazing driver and champion in waiting....
I honestly think that - irrespective of blame - had Max exercised a fraction less aggression, and "lived to fight another day" in the manner that Charles Leclerc did later in the race, he would probably have won the race and walked away with 25 points irrespective of Hamilton's actions in this case. But he didn't.
It takes more than aggression to become a world champion....
I don't see that as a fanboy comment, to be honest.
I'm sure I'll be corrected if necessary :)

Rgds
 
Virtual737
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:05 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:

Not when that aggressiveness caused another driver to spear off the wall at high speed, no. When has Verstappen done this to anyone on the grid, especially in the recent past from 2019 - 2021. Do tell me.

Aggressive driving is NOT causing your opponent to crash. Do learn the difference between Max shoving Leclerc in Austria 2019 and what Hamilton did.

Honestly, Hamilton supporters are the worst. You guys are no better than Max's fans, really!


That Max hasn't caused a high speed crash is as much down to those he's overtaken as it is himself. He is about as aggressive as they come. If every driver gave as little as Max does then I'm pretty sure there might have been several accidents with him involved. Lewis was predominantly at fault for this one and received a penalty.

I don't believe for one moment that Lewis pushed Max off the track intentionally (he's not Michael Schumacher after all) and I also think that it was about time Max learned that if neither driver gives an inch, accidents will happen. He was getting far too "I'm Max and they will give me room as they know I wont budge" for his own good.

That doesn't distract one iota from Lewis' fault in this one and I'm delighted Max got off as lightly physically as he did. Could have been an awful lot worse.
 
ChrisKen
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Wed Jul 21, 2021 12:01 pm

Just watched it. Hamilton was alongside and had the corner. VER turned into him and then turned further into him. Racing incident and VER proving he doesn't posses championship winning racecraft yet. (Should have just yielded the position he'd already lost and waited until later or you know be mature and worse case lose a few of points of the standings lead instead of the big ol chunk for being a dozy twonk and crashing out for no reason other than blind pursuit of track position).
 
Reinhardt
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Wed Jul 21, 2021 12:15 pm

ChrisKen wrote:
Just watched it. Hamilton was alongside and had the corner. VER turned into him and then turned further into him. Racing incident and VER proving he doesn't posses championship winning racecraft yet. (Should have just yielded the position he'd already lost and waited until later or you know be mature and worse case lose a few of points of the standings lead instead of the big ol chunk for being a dozy twonk and crashing out for no reason other than blind pursuit of track position).


If you watch the F1 Youtube vid about this incident that Jolyon Palmer said something similar about mid corner and who did what.

Say again, IMO both drivers could have avoided this. Hamilton slightly more to blame, I have no problem with the penalty. But that's it the limit. It wasn't a nothing penalty (5 seconds), it wasn't the harshest (stop go, or disqualified). So the stewards clearly felt there as something there, but not all on him. Even Alonso and Mika Hakkinen have come out and said racing incident, nothing to see here. Think everyone is trying to make this a 100% no contact, ever, only ever 100% one person to blame for everything sport. It isn't and should not be that sport.

It was an overtaking corner. Red Bull are wrong. Max could have not turned in a second time quite so hard. Lewis could have tried to make the apex, but he was out by a few cm and in the shots mid corner his direction is purely for the apex. It was a good run he had, he had every right to go for it, and he was along side (he didn't only just have a wheel up the insider).

He didn't do this on purpose it's clear, and all this grandstanding from Horner, Marko and even Max himself is montumentally overkill. Yes it was a hard shunt, yes it was unfortunate, yes we're all happy he's ok. But Lewis did one hell of a drive to come back on the hard tyre, and he was at home. He had every right to celebrate. Just as Max did last year when Grosjean was almost killed.
 
StarAC17
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Wed Jul 21, 2021 1:32 pm

Virtual737 wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:

Not when that aggressiveness caused another driver to spear off the wall at high speed, no. When has Verstappen done this to anyone on the grid, especially in the recent past from 2019 - 2021. Do tell me.

Aggressive driving is NOT causing your opponent to crash. Do learn the difference between Max shoving Leclerc in Austria 2019 and what Hamilton did.

Honestly, Hamilton supporters are the worst. You guys are no better than Max's fans, really!


That Max hasn't caused a high speed crash is as much down to those he's overtaken as it is himself. He is about as aggressive as they come. If every driver gave as little as Max does then I'm pretty sure there might have been several accidents with him involved. Lewis was predominantly at fault for this one and received a penalty.

I don't believe for one moment that Lewis pushed Max off the track intentionally (he's not Michael Schumacher after all) and I also think that it was about time Max learned that if neither driver gives an inch, accidents will happen. He was getting far too "I'm Max and they will give me room as they know I wont budge" for his own good.

That doesn't distract one iota from Lewis' fault in this one and I'm delighted Max got off as lightly physically as he did. Could have been an awful lot worse.


Ironically it looks like Lewis was backing off knowing he couldn't make the Apex. Had he pressed it would have been likely a side to side impact taking them both out.

I am a Lewis fan however it seems Max gets a lot of the benefit of the doubt when racing, Lewis does too. When you are at the top in any sport you get more leeway to bend the rules, is that fair? No but its reality.

I go back to Monaco when Lewis was livid about Mercedes strategy and how he got undercut by Gasly, he deserved that criticism. However no one bats am eye on the same weekend when Verstappen lost his cool when Leclerc red-flagged qualifying and Max was on his hot lap.

The remainder of the season is going to be so much better because of this.
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Aesma
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Wed Jul 21, 2021 2:57 pm

Both cars side by side and Max turning as if Lewis isn't there :

Image
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scbriml
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:04 pm

Aesma wrote:
Both cars side by side and Max turning as if Lewis isn't there :

Image


As Alonso said, what was Hamilton supposed to do, disappear?
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:51 am

scbriml wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Both cars side by side and Max turning as if Lewis isn't there :

Image


As Alonso said, what was Hamilton supposed to do, disappear?


Based on this analysis, he's never going to make the overtake even if both cars got out of the corner cleanly so he should have backed off a bit & try again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enVOLoPzfrE
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:23 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Both cars side by side and Max turning as if Lewis isn't there :

Image


As Alonso said, what was Hamilton supposed to do, disappear?


Based on this analysis, he's never going to make the overtake even if both cars got out of the corner cleanly so he should have backed off a bit & try again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enVOLoPzfrE


Lewis did back out (or was starting to). Had he not it would have been a sideswipe. The contact - front left to rear right is indicative of a slowdown by Lewis. At 300km/h milliseconds matter and thus the incident.
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:08 am

StarAC17 wrote:
Lewis did back out (or was starting to). Had he not it would have been a sideswipe. The contact - front left to rear right is indicative of a slowdown by Lewis. At 300km/h milliseconds matter and thus the incident.


Is it enough? Not really.
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Thu Jul 22, 2021 6:24 am

A couple corners before, Lewis is in front on the outside, shouldn't Max have slowed down then ? He crossed from the inside of the turn to the outside of the track as if Lewis wasn't there either, fortunately Lewis had backed out instead.
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Thu Jul 22, 2021 6:41 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Both cars side by side and Max turning as if Lewis isn't there :

Image


As Alonso said, what was Hamilton supposed to do, disappear?


Based on this analysis, he's never going to make the overtake even if both cars got out of the corner cleanly so he should have backed off a bit & try again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enVOLoPzfrE


It's not an analysis, it's just a snapshot. But it does illustrate that Verstappen is already turning in with Hamilton fully alongside. But I agree, Verstappen should have backed off and stayed in the race.
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:51 am

scbriml wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
scbriml wrote:

As Alonso said, what was Hamilton supposed to do, disappear?


Based on this analysis, he's never going to make the overtake even if both cars got out of the corner cleanly so he should have backed off a bit & try again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enVOLoPzfrE


It's not an analysis, it's just a snapshot. But it does illustrate that Verstappen is already turning in with Hamilton fully alongside. But I agree, Verstappen should have backed off and stayed in the race.


I'm talking about the YouTube video link. If you watch it, you'll see that:
a) Hamilton would definitely still have to back off because he'll never going to make the corner.
b) Because of the line he took, he definitely won't be alongside for long because of (a)
c) Verstappen did give room to Hamilton.
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:56 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
scbriml wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:

Based on this analysis, he's never going to make the overtake even if both cars got out of the corner cleanly so he should have backed off a bit & try again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enVOLoPzfrE


It's not an analysis, it's just a snapshot. But it does illustrate that Verstappen is already turning in with Hamilton fully alongside. But I agree, Verstappen should have backed off and stayed in the race.


I'm talking about the YouTube video link. If you watch it, you'll see that:
a) Hamilton would definitely still have to back off because he'll never going to make the corner.
b) Because of the line he took, he definitely won't be alongside for long because of (a)
c) Verstappen did give room to Hamilton.


I was half-joking because I knew you were talking about Hamilton, not Verstappen. :wink2:

The best summary I read (can't remember who said it): Both drivers could have done more to avoid a collision, but neither did. One of the drivers had a lot more to lose than the other.

Jolyon Palmer's analysis is interesting, not least his take on Verstappen's steering inputs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rp0GG4y3is8

Either way, it doesn't matter, the stewards made their decision and penalised Hamilton. No amount of post-race analysis will change anything, neither will Red Bull's threat of getting lawyers involved.
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petertenthije
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:53 am

scbriml wrote:
Either way, it doesn't matter, the stewards made their decision and penalised Hamilton. No amount of post-race analysis will change anything, neither will Red Bull's threat of getting lawyers involved.
The law suit should not be done. I understand the team's frustration, but that would go too far. The stewards made a judgement, so let it go.

There is one thing I do wonder about though. The F1 budgets are fixed at 145 million dollar per season. With Red Bull writing of a car, that is gonna seriously hurt Red Bull's options to invest in their car. Early estimates indicated a 750.000 euro write-off.

I think it would be fair that those costs are split between Red Bull and Mercedes, since both parties where responsible for the crash. Whether that be 50/50 or another split to be decided by an impartial party.

And, while we are at it, make that a general rule. If you cause someone to crash, then you will share in the costs. Though I do realise that could seriously hurt smaller teams with less gifted drivers (*cough*Mazepin*cough*).
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marcelh
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:42 pm

It would have been fun to read all the reactions over here when it had been the other way around :duck: :stirthepot: :ziplip:
 
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:13 pm

marcelh wrote:
It would have been fun to read all the reactions over here when it had been the other way around :duck: :stirthepot: :ziplip:


Yes, we'd be hearing from all the Verstappen fans about how big his balls are and how that Hamilton is a washed-up has-been.
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Boeing74741R
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Fri Jul 23, 2021 8:04 am

Reinhardt wrote:
Verstappen constantly puts people in a position where by they either have to let him through or they'll crash.


Seems to be a trait amongst quite a few of the top drivers over the years. He gets held up as a saint in a lot of quarters, however some people tend to forget that Ayrton Senna did just that a few times in his career (e.g. 1990 Japanese Grand Prix, even when you take out the mitigating circumstances) and one of his famous quotes that also featured in his docufilm was "If you no longer go for a gap that exists, you're no longer a racing driver.".

OK, I guess that quote probably applies to Hamilton given how he went for it and the end result was Verstappen being taken out, but the comparison between Senna and Verstappen (and Hamilton) is probably fair given with these three it is/was a case of letting them through or suffer the consequences.

keesje wrote:
I think many were surprized watching Lewis celebrating his win the way he did, knowing what happened. Also about the flexibility of the UK press. Max would have received totally different feed-back from his countrymen if he had done this.


I can't speak for the Dutch media, however the British media can be very two-faced towards famous stars when they want to be. See Marcus Rashford when he tweeted this week about a tip that the Spectator were about to publish an article claiming he was profiteering from his charity work. As far as F1 is concerned, I hear that Damon Hill didn't always have it easy in the 1990's either.

scbriml wrote:
Hamilton asked on the radio if Verstappen was OK and was told he was. He was only told that Verstappen went to hospital in the post race press interviews. Verstappen had no issue celebrating in Bahrain last season after Grosjean had his massive crash. Somewhat hypocritical of him to call out Hamilton in his passive-aggressive Tweet from his hospital!


The show tends to go on even if there's been a major accident and somebody is critically injured. The 1994 San Marino Grand Prix podium ceremony went ahead when Senna's condition was highly critical at that point, as well as the 2000 Italian Grand Prix when a marshal was also in a critical condition before later dying. The 2001 Australian Grand Prix podium was a bit muted as by then the drivers knew a marshal had died and Schumacher confirmed the news in the press conference straight afterwards.

GayFA wrote:
As others have said, with a superior car and 32 points up you can afford quite some P2s before you need to take more risk.


Very true. Alain Prost was an expert at only pushing when he needed to and played it safe when he felt his current position would do. It didn't work out badly for him over his career given his four world championships.

The more I think about this incident, the more I think both Verstappen and Hamilton might have benefitted from not going for it like they did in the first lap as there was a whole race ahead of them and the championship has a long way to go still, though that doesn't make for good racing.
 
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GHM1960
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Fri Jul 23, 2021 9:42 am

scbriml wrote:
keesje wrote:
[*]I thinks many were surprized watching Lewis celebrating his win the way he did, knowing what happened. Also about the flexibility of the UK press. Max would have received totally different feed-back from his countrymen if he had done this.

Lewis made the choice to celebrate the way he did and downplay / deny his role in the crash. So now he is entitled to learn how others feel about his approach.


Hamilton asked on the radio if Verstappen was OK and was told he was. He was only told that Verstappen went to hospital in the post race press interviews. Verstappen had no issue celebrating in Bahrain last season after Grosjean had his massive crash. Somewhat hypocritical of him to call out Hamilton in his passive-aggressive Tweet from his hospital!

Again, his fans love his aggression when it works, this time he was met with equal aggression and it didn't work out. Maybe he'll learn.



Max was released from hospital in the evening after going through several tests, so there is no way that anybody knew at the end of the race if he was ok. Not HAM's mistake ofcourse, but the person that told him he was ok.

I do not remember that Max ran Grosjean into that wall after a mistake and he also did not run onto the track waving a Dutch flag.
But please go on comparing apples to oranges.

And about being hypocritical, this is a quote after the French Grand prix in 2018 when Vettel hit Bottas and ends in front of him:

"Ultimately, if you ruin someone's race with a mistake, and you're able to get back to a spot for the other person, that penalty doesn't outweigh your mistake. You shouldn't be able to finish ahead of the other if you take them out of the race. It's like breaking the speed limit, but you just let it go," Hamilton told Sky Sports.

I guess he will give back those 25 points now, right?

And what is the problem with aggresive driving exactly? It is a competitive sport. Lewis was aggresively attacking for eight corners and Max was aggresively defending. No problem at all until Lewis made a mistake, according to the stewards. All the people I heard were loving it up to the crash. FIA has a point system for drivers that do not follow the rules and right now, Lewis has 4 points, Max 0!

Obviously Max is not breaking any rules until now, unlike Lewis.
 
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mad99
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:47 am

Lewis made a mistake and touched wheels with Max then got a penalty. I would consider it more of a racing incident.
 
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Fri Jul 23, 2021 1:33 pm

GHM1960 wrote:
Max was released from hospital in the evening after going through several tests, so there is no way that anybody knew at the end of the race if he was ok. Not HAM's mistake ofcourse, but the person that told him he was ok.


https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/merc ... s/6635189/
Speaking exclusively to Motorsport.com about the nature of the post-race reaction, Mercedes team boss Toto Wolff said: "It's important to understand all the feedback that we received.

"We had the feedback from senior management of Red Bull that Max was fine. Christian [Horner] mentioned it to [F1 race director] Michael Masi on the intercom that he's unharmed and fine, and the FIA gave us similar feedback.

"So at no point would we have celebrated if Max would have been injured. And I think that's very important to understand."


Verstappen was having precautionary tests. He was well enough to send out angry Tweets.

GHM1960 wrote:
But please go on comparing apples to oranges.


It's only different if you want to see it differently.

GHM1960 wrote:
And about being hypocritical, this is a quote after the French Grand prix in 2018 when Vettel hit Bottas and ends in front of him:

"Ultimately, if you ruin someone's race with a mistake, and you're able to get back to a spot for the other person, that penalty doesn't outweigh your mistake. You shouldn't be able to finish ahead of the other if you take them out of the race. It's like breaking the speed limit, but you just let it go," Hamilton told Sky Sports.

I guess he will give back those 25 points now, right?


You mentioned apples and oranges earlier - Hamilton was talking about an incident where both drivers were able to continue after a collision. No of course he won't decline the points, no driver would. He also said he didn't want to win like that, but you didn't mention that. It's not fair - just as drivers gain and lose from SC deployments and red-flagged races. Motorsport, just like real life, is sometimes unfair. You take the rough with the smooth and move on.
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Aesma
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Fri Jul 23, 2021 4:26 pm

Youtube's algorithm suggested this vid : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkAoSghdD6Y
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
StarAC17
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Fri Jul 23, 2021 4:36 pm

Aesma wrote:
Youtube's algorithm suggested this vid : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkAoSghdD6Y


It's been going around the F1 sphere since Sunday's race.

The best part of it is Riccardo flipping him off when the Safety car train comes around and he is walking off after Verstappen crashed into him.

I am sure Seb is also not a fan of Max also.
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:29 am

scbriml wrote:
marcelh wrote:
It would have been fun to read all the reactions over here when it had been the other way around :duck: :stirthepot: :ziplip:


Yes, we'd be hearing from all the Verstappen fans about how big his balls are and how that Hamilton is a washed-up has-been.


Christian Horner would have been the very first person on that particular train (as he has already shown so far this season)....
The Red Bull response is way more about mind games than actual harm.

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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:37 am

scbriml wrote:
You mentioned apples and oranges earlier - Hamilton was talking about an incident where both drivers were able to continue after a collision. No of course he won't decline the points, no driver would. He also said he didn't want to win like that, but you didn't mention that. It's not fair - just as drivers gain and lose from SC deployments and red-flagged races. Motorsport, just like real life, is sometimes unfair. You take the rough with the smooth and move on.


It's still relevant to the situation. Saying that it's not relevant is merely hypocrisy.

This is why many people are not big fans of Hamilton. He's too hypocritical for his own good.
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Jul 25, 2021 10:52 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
It's still relevant to the situation. Saying that it's not relevant is merely hypocrisy.

This is why many people are not big fans of Hamilton. He's too hypocritical for his own good.


Who said it was irrelevant? I was merely pointing out that the quote given was in relation to a different, very specific situation.

After the race, Hamilton said "Of course, that’s never the way I want to win a race – or in general, to race – but yes, these things do happen. I just hope he’s OK and I look forward to many more races."

One could argue that Horner is hypocritical for praising Verstappen's aggression when it works in his favour, but being unhappy (understatement!) when it doesn't.
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Boeing74741R
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Wed Jul 28, 2021 11:57 am

Just when we all thought the matter was over, Red Bull have requested a review of Lewis Hamilton's penalty and a hearing will take place tomorrow: -

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/57988419

I can't help but think everyone should move on instead of continuing to argue the toss almost 2 weeks later. It wasn't a championship-deciding crash like Schumacher with Hill in 1994 and Villeneuve in 1997, though I accept the DNF could make all the difference later on in the season. I'm also concerned about the precedent this will set the next time another incident happens and one of the teams involved doesn't like the penalty.
 
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Wed Jul 28, 2021 12:15 pm

Red Bull want the penalty increased but will need to present new evidence which was not available at the time of the original inquiry for seven-time world champion Hamilton to be sanctioned further.


Easy out there for the stewarts, no new evidence, case closed.

Everyone in the sport is saying day in day out that they want more action on the track, that drivers should be able to fight each other, etc., litigating this to death is already bad, but if a further penalty was imposed, it would destroy all this messaging.

I'm sure it will already contribute to keep VER on the edge and wouldn't be surprised to see him crash into HAM at the first corner on Sunday...
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petertenthije
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:03 pm

Full disclosure, I am pro max.

That said, I would not want the results of the match to be changed. Race control made a ruling. Assuming there is no new information, the ruling should stand.

I would not be surprised if this is more a jab at the FIA then at Mercedes. This incident will have to come out of Red Bull's regular budget, which the FIA has limited at 145 million per season. Writing of a car at 1,5 million is going to impact Red Bull's future options (in addition to having lost points)

My guess is they will want to either get a (partial) refund by Mercedes, or that the spending limit is raised by the value of this write-off.

My guess is that latter the is most likely to happen. If the former where to happen, then teams with bumper car drivers like Mazepin might as well close shop now.
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:06 pm

How long before a team quits the championship mid-season to spend all remaining money onto the following season's car ?
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Wed Jul 28, 2021 8:27 pm

Aesma wrote:
Easy out there for the stewarts, no new evidence, case closed.


Lots of rumours that Red Bull’s main new evidence is GPS data which shows that Hamilton was never as fast through Copse on any other lap in the race. However, I’m really struggling to grasp how the stewards can consider “the future” when judging an incident in “the present”. I can’t see how the evidence can be admissible.

petertenthije wrote:
I would not be surprised if this is more a jab at the FIA then at Mercedes. This incident will have to come out of Red Bull's regular budget, which the FIA has limited at 145 million per season. Writing of a car at 1,5 million is going to impact Red Bull's future options (in addition to having lost points)

My guess is they will want to either get a (partial) refund by Mercedes, or that the spending limit is raised by the value of this write-off.


There’s no mechanism for any of those things to happen and the rules won’t change mid-season. All the teams will have contingency built into their budgets, but obviously $1.8 million is a big chunk to lose. I would point out that Mercedes has also suffered a massive car accident with Bottas car.
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petertenthije
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Wed Jul 28, 2021 8:34 pm

scbriml wrote:
and the rules won’t change mid-season.

Why not? The pit rules have been changed already this season.

https://www.planetf1.com/news/fia-chang ... top-rules/
 
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Wed Jul 28, 2021 9:36 pm

petertenthije wrote:
scbriml wrote:
and the rules won’t change mid-season.

Why not? The pit rules have been changed already this season.

https://www.planetf1.com/news/fia-chang ... top-rules/


I believe there are only two ways rules can be changed mid-season:

One is on the basis of safety, under which the pit stop rules are being changed. These changes do not require the agreement of the teams.
The other is with the agreement of all the teams.

I can’t see any way that fundamental rules relating to the cost cap will be changed in the way you’ve suggested. All the teams agreed to the cost cap knowing that crash damage would have to be allowed for. Obviously losing an entire chassis and possibly engine components will be very expensive, but they all signed up for it. I understand why Red Bull are unhappy, just as Mercedes were when Bottas car was destroyed earlier in the season, but I can’t see this going anywhere.
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Wed Jul 28, 2021 10:49 pm

marcelh wrote:
“And was unpunished”. So nothing to see there according to the stewards.


If you want to use that as an example of case closed then why not accept the decision the stewards made about this incident?
 
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Thu Jul 29, 2021 2:04 am

scbriml wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Easy out there for the stewarts, no new evidence, case closed.


Lots of rumours that Red Bull’s main new evidence is GPS data which shows that Hamilton was never as fast through Copse on any other lap in the race. However, I’m really struggling to grasp how the stewards can consider “the future” when judging an incident in “the present”. I can’t see how the evidence can be admissible.


Also it might be better to take the turn slower to have better acceleration out of it, it doesn't mean that overtaking there isn't possible.
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marcelh
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:17 am

Virtual737 wrote:
marcelh wrote:
“And was unpunished”. So nothing to see there according to the stewards.


If you want to use that as an example of case closed then why not accept the decision the stewards made about this incident?

Touché… :bigthumbsup: Although there is a difference between getting no penalty (= you did nothing wrong) and getting a penalty (= you stupid a..h.le).

Let’s see what drama we’ll see this weekend. All the “F1 fans” will claim VER is driving agressively, even when he’s inside the pit box…… :roll:
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