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StarAC17
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Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 11:54 am

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Tue Aug 31, 2021 4:31 am

Revelation wrote:
Aesma wrote:
On another forum a member often goes to this GP. He detailed his budget, he didn't go for the cheapest everything, but for example was in the "Gold 1 Pit" tribune, tickets were 650€. With the airbnb 30Km away, food out of the circuit (very expensive on the venue), he spent 1000€, for one guy alone.

You can go cheaper sitting on mud, sleeping in mud and bathing in mud.

Watch out world (and yes, a.net in particular) I've recently binge watched three seasons of 'Drive to Survive' on Netflix so now I feel "read in" on F1.

Price of participation is a real thing. US GP in Austin would presumably cost me double that due to airfare and needed accommodation. Canadian GP in MTL would be a lot more viable, a five hour drive away, but also a significant financial commitment. Had a friend who went to MTL a few years ago and said he didn't enjoy it. Very expensive, very loud, long lines everywhere. Nothing surprising, but still. I may go once just to know what the live experience is like, but it seems the home experience with wide screen TV is pretty darn compelling. I've been a fan of NFL football for decades, and have gone to a game exactly once, just to say I know what the experience is like. Other than that, I prefer my wide screen and my couch.

So far I haven't even coughed up the $80 for F1 Pro straming, and might not this season. There is so much F1 content on YouTube, you get all the highlights and countless commentaries. At this point that's about all I need. The US GP will be on free over-the-air TV here in the US, as will the MX GP. I have a similar relationship with NBA basketball. I follow the sport mainly thought podcasts and u2b highlights and the occasional free over-the-air game.

Speaking of which, anyone have any F1 podcast they recommend, especially for newbies?

So it seems the Merc driver situation is sorted yet not announced. It seems clear to me Bottas's time with the team is soon to end. The king is dead, long live the king. Stuff I read said Russell is willing to do what a second driver has to do. Good for him!

Sorry for any brain farts, like I said, I'm a newbie..


I'm a newbie too but its easy to pick up and I think Drive to Survive really made American's really respect F1. In fact through paying attention to it I have realized that their is no racer in NASCAR or Indycar who doesn't respect F1 as the gold standard. If those guys could cut it in F1 they would. Whereas Romain Grosjean comes over to Indy and is competitive.

I think the TV broadcast that Sky sports puts out for F1 to be excellent. I would say the NFL could learn from F1 on how to put on a better show than they do.
I assume this is the feed ESPN uses for F1 races. I love the fact that the broadcasters aren't in suits and wear jeans and a dress shirt and they team principles and the racers are very engaging with the crew. The NFL as a comparison has a bug up their @$$ and are way to serious. (It is the No Fun League after all).

The good thing about F1 on the east coast of North America is that it starts at 9am eastern for most races a race with minimal incidents is over at 11am and you have the rest of your day. Just don't count the mess on Sunday.

Also a personal note, PVR an extra hour even for qualifying. I was busy on Saturday and Lando's crash caused me to miss Q3 :banghead: :hissyfit: :cry2:

In terms of Podcasts.

F1 - Beyond the Grid - It's very good for one on ones with drivers, team principles and other figures throughout the sport.
WTF1 - they usually do a pre-race and post-race podcast. These guys are younger but are really funny and on their youtube channel they do an Internet's best reactions to the race. Its all memes and is hilarious. I will say the F1 social media and twitter game is a just a laugh.

Some youtube channels I like for F1.

Aldas - discusses current events but not really that funny.
Perspective - He is an Aussie who talked about tracks and the driver politics
WTF1 - As said above and there are technical and historical things posted weekly

Also the teams have really good YouTube channels.

- Aston Martin has a funny bit called Lance vs Seb (they play silly games) and they go into what that team does for the community.
- McLaren does the same with Lando and Danny Ric.
- Mercedes AMG does a technical debrief after each race and they feature a lot with Bottas and Lewis.

Regarding the decision at Mercedes. Toto said a decision is made its just when its going to be announced and do the drivers even know at this point.

The latest rumour I have heard is that Bottas is going to Alfa-Romeo (I assume to be in line to get a shot at a Ferrari seat), Kimi will retire and Russell will sign with Mercedes. This will be announced at Monza in on the weekend of Sept 10-12
 
TankEngine
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Tue Aug 31, 2021 7:51 am

I've been to a number of GP's (usually Singapore or Montreal) and its not cheep.
Airfare from UK, accommodation, grid stand tickets, food, etc all add up to a small fortune, so I would have been very unhappy to say the least if this was classified as a race if I was there.
 
marcelh
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Tue Aug 31, 2021 8:39 am

Revelation wrote:
At least one of the highlights programs showed they had a podium celebration complete with champagne being sprayed.

Ehm, that Ferrari stuff they are spraying isn’t champagne. It’s Italian sparkling wine.
 
marcelh
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Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Tue Aug 31, 2021 8:55 am

Aesma wrote:
On another forum a member often goes to this GP. He detailed his budget, he didn't go for the cheapest everything, but for example was in the "Gold 1 Pit" tribune, tickets were 650€. With the airbnb 30Km away, food out of the circuit (very expensive on the venue), he spent 1000€, for one guy alone.

You can go cheaper sitting on mud, sleeping in mud and bathing in mud.

Spa Francorchamps must be avoided when visiting a F1 race.
Often not great weather, it’s a disaster to get there (and leave afterwards), long track (you see the cars less).
 
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Aesma
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Tue Aug 31, 2021 9:14 am

Another commented that he went with his son, with a cheaper tribune (at the bottom of the raidillon) and came out at about 1000€ too, but for 2 people.

Both commented that the grass parkings are a nightmare, with tractors used to help stranded cars.

When leaving the circuit there were cars parked along the road for miles, apparently this was allowed because the grass parkings had been closed. Some people must have walked 5 miles each way to get to the circuit, and didn't see a race...
 
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scbriml
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Tue Aug 31, 2021 12:07 pm

Aesma wrote:
Some people must have walked 5 miles each way to get to the circuit, and didn't see a race...


But the FIA says there was a race! :banghead:

If F1 is unable to provide a race (as opposed to the farce that they called a race), even due to circumstances beyond their control, they should refund the crowd. Spa, the circuit, provided all the facilities they were required to, so I don’t see how they can be financially responsible. Even if F1 gave everyone a 50% refund, they’d be seen in a far better light than they are right now.

While I appreciate this weekend saw something exceptional, it’s somewhat damning that F1 didn’t have the rules or regulations set so that everyone knew what would happen. It’s very hard not to view Sunday’s events from the perspective that F1 was making it up as they went along.

So, what I would like to see is a set of clearly defined rules relating to what constitutes “a race” and at what point points are awarded.

Something like:

If absolutely no green flag racing laps are possible (as on Sunday), then 1/5th points awarded based on qualifying positions. Although I personally think awarding points for qualifying should not happen, at least the teams would get some reward for their efforts.

An absolute minimum number of green flag racing laps required to constitute “a race”. Maybe 10% race distance rounded up to the next whole lap, so for Spa that would be 5 laps.

Once we have a race, as defined above, points should be awarded in say 10% increments based on race distance. Once we get to over 90% race distance, full points are awarded. If the race is red flagged and is unable to resume, then points are awarded based on what percentage of the race has been completed (in 10% increments).
 
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Revelation
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Tue Aug 31, 2021 1:51 pm

StarAC17 wrote:
I'm a newbie too but its easy to pick up and I think Drive to Survive really made American's really respect F1. In fact through paying attention to it I have realized that their is no racer in NASCAR or Indycar who doesn't respect F1 as the gold standard. If those guys could cut it in F1 they would. Whereas Romain Grosjean comes over to Indy and is competitive.

I think the TV broadcast that Sky sports puts out for F1 to be excellent. I would say the NFL could learn from F1 on how to put on a better show than they do.
I assume this is the feed ESPN uses for F1 races. I love the fact that the broadcasters aren't in suits and wear jeans and a dress shirt and they team principles and the racers are very engaging with the crew. The NFL as a comparison has a bug up their @$$ and are way to serious. (It is the No Fun League after all).

The good thing about F1 on the east coast of North America is that it starts at 9am eastern for most races a race with minimal incidents is over at 11am and you have the rest of your day. Just don't count the mess on Sunday.

Also a personal note, PVR an extra hour even for qualifying. I was busy on Saturday and Lando's crash caused me to miss Q3 :banghead: :hissyfit: :cry2:

In terms of Podcasts.

F1 - Beyond the Grid - It's very good for one on ones with drivers, team principles and other figures throughout the sport.
WTF1 - they usually do a pre-race and post-race podcast. These guys are younger but are really funny and on their youtube channel they do an Internet's best reactions to the race. Its all memes and is hilarious. I will say the F1 social media and twitter game is a just a laugh.

Some youtube channels I like for F1.

Aldas - discusses current events but not really that funny.
Perspective - He is an Aussie who talked about tracks and the driver politics
WTF1 - As said above and there are technical and historical things posted weekly

Also the teams have really good YouTube channels.

- Aston Martin has a funny bit called Lance vs Seb (they play silly games) and they go into what that team does for the community.
- McLaren does the same with Lando and Danny Ric.
- Mercedes AMG does a technical debrief after each race and they feature a lot with Bottas and Lewis.

Regarding the decision at Mercedes. Toto said a decision is made its just when its going to be announced and do the drivers even know at this point.

The latest rumour I have heard is that Bottas is going to Alfa-Romeo (I assume to be in line to get a shot at a Ferrari seat), Kimi will retire and Russell will sign with Mercedes. This will be announced at Monza in on the weekend of Sept 10-12

Thanks for your comments, especially on media stuff.

One thing I've noted is that F1 drivers and principals are at least a bit forthcoming during interviews, rather than most US-based spots where interviews with athletes and coaches are almost always worthless platitudes that they've been programmed to say since childhood. This means I actively avoid shows/podcasts that are heavy on interviews, they just aren't very compelling or forthcoming.

One small example, which ties into your info on Bottas, Kimi and Russell:

Following the conclusion of the farcical Belgian Grand Prix, Russell was asked: “Does an announcement on your future depend on situations elsewhere?”

After a little pause, Russell simply said “yes” with a smile and walked away.

Ref: https://www.planetf1.com/news/kimi-raik ... e-russell/

If this was about a US athlete changing teams he never would have given such a straight-forward answer, he would have given a non-answer answer. Even at a young age US athletes are indoctrinated on the ways of the army of camp followers and clingers-on who handle such matters, and if you gave away such a nugget of information your own people would be up in your grill about how you cut them off at the knees.

marcelh wrote:
Revelation wrote:
At least one of the highlights programs showed they had a podium celebration complete with champagne being sprayed.

Ehm, that Ferrari stuff they are spraying isn’t champagne. It’s Italian sparkling wine.

Thanks for the correction. Not sure it changes the point I was trying to make, that it was unsightly to celebrate for following the safety car around for two laps. Guess everyone is pre-programmed to go through the motions and perhaps they think the fans are expecting it it, but to me it came across to me as fake.
 
StarAC17
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Tue Aug 31, 2021 2:23 pm

Revelation wrote:

If this was about a US athlete changing teams he never would have given such a straight-forward answer, he would have given a non-answer answer. Even at a young age US athletes are indoctrinated on the ways of the army of camp followers and clingers-on who handle such matters, and if you gave away such a nugget of information your own people would be up in your grill about how you cut them off at the knees.


If you have watched DTS the one thing that differs in F1 from North American sports is that players do not change teams during the season (with the exception of a trade). Official free agency is after the season is over.

If a driver is booted or decides to move they have to run out the year with the same team and that might make it harder for that diver to play ball. Riccardo did it well but Vettel didn't give a hoot about Ferrari when he realized he was gone after the end of 2020.

Revelation wrote:
Thanks for the correction. Not sure it changes the point I was trying to make, that it was unsightly to celebrate for following the safety car around for two laps. Guess everyone is pre-programmed to go through the motions and perhaps they think the fans are expecting it it, but to me it came across to me as fake.


IIRC when they are in the Middle East it is carbonated Rose-water.
 
TangoandCash
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Tue Aug 31, 2021 6:05 pm

StarAC17 wrote:

Was that the whole weekend or just the race?

That wouldn't be too bad if that was even qualifying and the race. I would pay that to go to Montreal easily (from Toronto). I don't know if I would necessarily do it every year though.

Furthermore Miami is being added to 2022 to be in April or May. This will be a street circuit around Hard-Rock stadium (where the Dolphins play). The track looks decent but there are no real grade changes as it's Florida.


We arrived Friday in time for the second practice session. And by 'general admission' I mean 'bring your lawn chair and stake out a spot', grandstand seating costs extra at COTA.

We skipped 2020 for obvious reasons and will probably pass on 2021. Yes we have a good championship fight, but it's the same cars and the covid pandemic is far from over. I hear ticket sales are going well though.

Miami might be worth looking into for future attendance...
 
StarAC17
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Tue Aug 31, 2021 8:39 pm

TangoandCash wrote:
StarAC17 wrote:

Was that the whole weekend or just the race?

That wouldn't be too bad if that was even qualifying and the race. I would pay that to go to Montreal easily (from Toronto). I don't know if I would necessarily do it every year though.

Furthermore Miami is being added to 2022 to be in April or May. This will be a street circuit around Hard-Rock stadium (where the Dolphins play). The track looks decent but there are no real grade changes as it's Florida.


We arrived Friday in time for the second practice session. And by 'general admission' I mean 'bring your lawn chair and stake out a spot', grandstand seating costs extra at COTA.

We skipped 2020 for obvious reasons and will probably pass on 2021. Yes we have a good championship fight, but it's the same cars and the covid pandemic is far from over. I hear ticket sales are going well though.

Miami might be worth looking into for future attendance...


You didn't miss much in 2020, the race didn't happen.

I have heard it has sold out this year and there was the speculation of doing two races there with Singapore, Japan and now Australia cancelled.
 
CRJockey
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Tue Aug 31, 2021 10:00 pm

Aesma wrote:
They didn't have nothing to lose, except Haas.


And Alfa.
Not sure what axe you have to grind here anyway, as your point isn’t even true anyway. Russell was running his mid choice of rear wings downforce wise. F1.com Tech Tuesday, if you want to read up.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Wed Sep 01, 2021 5:57 am

Revelation wrote:
One thing I've noted is that F1 drivers and principals are at least a bit forthcoming during interviews, rather than most US-based spots where interviews with athletes and coaches are almost always worthless platitudes that they've been programmed to say since childhood. This means I actively avoid shows/podcasts that are heavy on interviews, they just aren't very compelling or forthcoming.

One small example, which ties into your info on Bottas, Kimi and Russell:

Following the conclusion of the farcical Belgian Grand Prix, Russell was asked: “Does an announcement on your future depend on situations elsewhere?”

After a little pause, Russell simply said “yes” with a smile and walked away.

Ref: https://www.planetf1.com/news/kimi-raik ... e-russell/

If this was about a US athlete changing teams he never would have given such a straight-forward answer, he would have given a non-answer answer. Even at a young age US athletes are indoctrinated on the ways of the army of camp followers and clingers-on who handle such matters, and if you gave away such a nugget of information your own people would be up in your grill about how you cut them off at the knees.


You'd be surprised to know that long time F1 fans often bemoan the fact that drivers are now more corporate and are less likely to speak their minds on stuff on the account of not wanting to offend sponsors.

The only exception to this is Kimi Raikkonen. Which is why so many love him.
 
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Aesma
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Wed Sep 01, 2021 9:30 am

CRJockey wrote:
Aesma wrote:
They didn't have nothing to lose, except Haas.


And Alfa.
Not sure what axe you have to grind here anyway, as your point isn’t even true anyway. Russell was running his mid choice of rear wings downforce wise. F1.com Tech Tuesday, if you want to read up.


I have nothing against Russel, but the Williams is an anvil.
 
StarAC17
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Wed Sep 01, 2021 1:42 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Revelation wrote:
One thing I've noted is that F1 drivers and principals are at least a bit forthcoming during interviews, rather than most US-based spots where interviews with athletes and coaches are almost always worthless platitudes that they've been programmed to say since childhood. This means I actively avoid shows/podcasts that are heavy on interviews, they just aren't very compelling or forthcoming.

One small example, which ties into your info on Bottas, Kimi and Russell:

Following the conclusion of the farcical Belgian Grand Prix, Russell was asked: “Does an announcement on your future depend on situations elsewhere?”

After a little pause, Russell simply said “yes” with a smile and walked away.

Ref: https://www.planetf1.com/news/kimi-raik ... e-russell/

If this was about a US athlete changing teams he never would have given such a straight-forward answer, he would have given a non-answer answer. Even at a young age US athletes are indoctrinated on the ways of the army of camp followers and clingers-on who handle such matters, and if you gave away such a nugget of information your own people would be up in your grill about how you cut them off at the knees.


You'd be surprised to know that long time F1 fans often bemoan the fact that drivers are now more corporate and are less likely to speak their minds on stuff on the account of not wanting to offend sponsors.

The only exception to this is Kimi Raikkonen. Which is why so many love him.


Seb and Lewis appear not to care to a point, I say to a point because I don't think either will go in to Jeddah or Abu Dhabi with rainbow colours.
 
CRJockey
Posts: 354
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Wed Sep 01, 2021 5:55 pm

StarAC17 wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Revelation wrote:
One thing I've noted is that F1 drivers and principals are at least a bit forthcoming during interviews, rather than most US-based spots where interviews with athletes and coaches are almost always worthless platitudes that they've been programmed to say since childhood. This means I actively avoid shows/podcasts that are heavy on interviews, they just aren't very compelling or forthcoming.

One small example, which ties into your info on Bottas, Kimi and Russell:


Ref: https://www.planetf1.com/news/kimi-raik ... e-russell/

If this was about a US athlete changing teams he never would have given such a straight-forward answer, he would have given a non-answer answer. Even at a young age US athletes are indoctrinated on the ways of the army of camp followers and clingers-on who handle such matters, and if you gave away such a nugget of information your own people would be up in your grill about how you cut them off at the knees.


You'd be surprised to know that long time F1 fans often bemoan the fact that drivers are now more corporate and are less likely to speak their minds on stuff on the account of not wanting to offend sponsors.

The only exception to this is Kimi Raikkonen. Which is why so many love him.


Seb and Lewis appear not to care to a point, I say to a point because I don't think either will go in to Jeddah or Abu Dhabi with rainbow colours.


Agree.

And happy retirement, Kimi, after the 2021 campaign! Was a pleasure having you all those years, many thanks.
 
PHLspecial
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Wed Sep 01, 2021 6:41 pm

I hope Kimi gets to enjoy his years after retirement.

Now silly season can kick in. Can't wait for more silly rumors to come along!
 
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Revelation
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Wed Sep 01, 2021 8:08 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
You'd be surprised to know that long time F1 fans often bemoan the fact that drivers are now more corporate and are less likely to speak their minds on stuff on the account of not wanting to offend sponsors.

The only exception to this is Kimi Raikkonen. Which is why so many love him.

Thanks for the perspective. All I can say is it can get worse, and probably will.

The way money works in F1 feels different to other sports, especially with some driver's dads buying their son's way on to the teams. Big money certainly influences other sports, but I'm having a hard time finding precedents like that at the highest levels of other sports. Other sports with single athletes have some form of elimination that weeds them out before the final rounds of the competition. F1 lets them onto the same track as those who are there due to merit not parent's patronage. I guess the sport is so costly to run that it's something that is accepted. One video suggested it's been like this since the earliest days of the sport where family wealth largely determined participation, so in some ways it's better than the old days.

The closest I could find to this was one case in the NBA where a coach's son was on the team largely to keep the coach happy working for a franchise that didn't have much talent, but this was only an allegation and was never openly acknowledged.

The whole thing where one entity owns multiple teams, or at least strongly influences more than one teams, yet these teams are all in the same competition, is also something of an oddity to a newcomer. Are there parallels to this in world sports? I can't think of it in the major US sports. It's as if one very wealthy person owned multiple NFL or NBA teams and each off season chose to move the best players and equipment to one team and have the other deal with the cast-offs. Again, this is presumably due to how much money it costs to participate, but still, it shows an unusual side to the sport.
 
StarAC17
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Wed Sep 01, 2021 10:14 pm

Revelation wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:

The way money works in F1 feels different to other sports, especially with some driver's dads buying their son's way on to the teams. Big money certainly influences other sports, but I'm having a hard time finding precedents like that at the highest levels of other sports. Other sports with single athletes have some form of elimination that weeds them out before the final rounds of the competition. F1 lets them onto the same track as those who are there due to merit not parent's patronage. I guess the sport is so costly to run that it's something that is accepted. One video suggested it's been like this since the earliest days of the sport where family wealth largely determined participation, so in some ways it's better than the old days.



They brought this up in Drive to Survive regarding Lance Stroll.

While his Dad does own Aston Martin he does have the talent to hold his own in F1. He has 2 podiums IIRC, has qualified on pole and regularly scores points. He needs to work on his consistency but the Aston Martin car has had its challenges this year. He probably does deserve to be there.

Nikita Mazepin and Nicholas Latifi need to prove themselves soon or even thought their dad's own their teams they will be shown the door if they can't improve. Latifi has shown a lot of improvement this year especially in the last few races. Nothing close to George Russell but two races with points. Belgium didn't really count but he did get into Q2.
 
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Aesma
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Wed Sep 01, 2021 11:50 pm

Stroll was a Euro F3 champion, like Esteban Ocon, Lando Norris and Mick Schumacher. However these 3 had to go on to win/be competitive in another championship before getting an F1 seat.

Pay drivers of the past were gentlemen drivers who got a seat in slow cars, often not even qualifying for the race.

But yes a F1 driver without some financial backing doesn't exist, however sometimes the backing comes from the teams themselves, with their academies. If it's not that way, then it's simply by winning in lower categories that a company (often an oil company) will start supporting a driver.
 
Newark727
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Thu Sep 02, 2021 3:14 am

Revelation wrote:
The whole thing where one entity owns multiple teams, or at least strongly influences more than one teams, yet these teams are all in the same competition, is also something of an oddity to a newcomer. Are there parallels to this in world sports? I can't think of it in the major US sports. It's as if one very wealthy person owned multiple NFL or NBA teams and each off season chose to move the best players and equipment to one team and have the other deal with the cast-offs. Again, this is presumably due to how much money it costs to participate, but still, it shows an unusual side to the sport.


The closest analog I can think of is minor league baseball. The major league teams control some of the minor league teams and use them to develop talent. The difference is that the "major" and "minor" league teams are racing on the same track together, but that's not unheard of in auto racing - in fact it's the norm in sports-car events (Le Mans, Sebring, etc.) for different classes of car with different performance levels, or different levels of driver experience, to be racing simultaneously.
 
Virtual737
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:12 pm

CRJockey wrote:

If they change the rules to reflect that, fine with me. For the time being I see it as reward for a strong performance in demanding P and Q sessions especially for Misters Russell and Latifi.


Then they need to change the rules or it's not fair on the other smaller teams. Williams scored more points in that "race" than Haas and Alfa Romeo did for the whole of last season combined and it makes a HUGE difference to the finances, and garage positions etc.

F1 has never had points awarded for qualifying, except for this seasons sprint qually where the winner gets 3. There was a point for fastest lap in the 50s but that was quickly stopped and only brought back 2 seasons ago. Points have always been massively biased to the race itself.

I'm all for some small amount of points for qualifying, but I'm also happy with none. What I'm not happy with is a large amount of points for qualifying in one single event that was not pre-known. That's effectively what we had last weekend. George scored more points in that disaster of a "race" than many F1 drivers did in their entire careers. It was a business decision that leaves a very sour taste in the mouths of most real fans.
 
CRJockey
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Thu Sep 02, 2021 9:41 pm

Virtual737 wrote:
CRJockey wrote:

If they change the rules to reflect that, fine with me. For the time being I see it as reward for a strong performance in demanding P and Q sessions especially for Misters Russell and Latifi.


Then they need to change the rules or it's not fair on the other smaller teams. Williams scored more points in that "race" than Haas and Alfa Romeo did for the whole of last season combined and it makes a HUGE difference to the finances, and garage positions etc.

F1 has never had points awarded for qualifying, except for this seasons sprint qually where the winner gets 3. There was a point for fastest lap in the 50s but that was quickly stopped and only brought back 2 seasons ago. Points have always been massively biased to the race itself.

I'm all for some small amount of points for qualifying, but I'm also happy with none. What I'm not happy with is a large amount of points for qualifying in one single event that was not pre-known. That's effectively what we had last weekend. George scored more points in that disaster of a "race" than many F1 drivers did in their entire careers. It was a business decision that leaves a very sour taste in the mouths of most real fans.


All well. Doesn’t change the fact that the rules have been applicable for Spa in the then current version. And they did (and still do) award half points for two laps dawdling behind the SC, effectively rewarding the qualifying.

I fully concur with your last sentence, though. But didn’t expect anything better from F1 or any large Sport business, really.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Fri Sep 03, 2021 2:58 am

CRJockey wrote:
Then they need to change the rules or it's not fair on the other smaller teams. Williams scored more points in that "race" than Haas and Alfa Romeo did for the whole of last season combined and it makes a HUGE difference to the finances, and garage positions etc.

F1 has never had points awarded for qualifying, except for this seasons sprint qually where the winner gets 3. There was a point for fastest lap in the 50s but that was quickly stopped and only brought back 2 seasons ago. Points have always been massively biased to the race itself.

I'm all for some small amount of points for qualifying, but I'm also happy with none. What I'm not happy with is a large amount of points for qualifying in one single event that was not pre-known. That's effectively what we had last weekend. George scored more points in that disaster of a "race" than many F1 drivers did in their entire careers. It was a business decision that leaves a very sour taste in the mouths of most real fans.


Technically, the rules were followed.

In the first start, they had the one formation lap. But because the race was supposed to start under the safety car, the second lap was considered to be a "racing lap". Then after the second race start, those two laps are also considered as racing laps, even though it is behind the safety car.

So they completed 3 laps, not 2. And under the FIA rule book, half points are to be awarded because more than 2 laps were run!

6.5 If a sprint qualifying session or race is suspended under Article 50, and cannot be resumed, no points will be awarded if the leader has completed two laps or less, half points will be awarded if the leader has completed more than two laps but less than 75% of the original sprint qualifying session or race distance and full points will be awarded if the leader has completed 75% or more of the original sprint qualifying session or race distance.


https://www.fia.com/regulation/category/110
 
CRJockey
Posts: 354
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Fri Sep 03, 2021 11:25 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
CRJockey wrote:
Then they need to change the rules or it's not fair on the other smaller teams. Williams scored more points in that "race" than Haas and Alfa Romeo did for the whole of last season combined and it makes a HUGE difference to the finances, and garage positions etc.

F1 has never had points awarded for qualifying, except for this seasons sprint qually where the winner gets 3. There was a point for fastest lap in the 50s but that was quickly stopped and only brought back 2 seasons ago. Points have always been massively biased to the race itself.

I'm all for some small amount of points for qualifying, but I'm also happy with none. What I'm not happy with is a large amount of points for qualifying in one single event that was not pre-known. That's effectively what we had last weekend. George scored more points in that disaster of a "race" than many F1 drivers did in their entire careers. It was a business decision that leaves a very sour taste in the mouths of most real fans.


Technically, the rules were followed.

In the first start, they had the one formation lap. But because the race was supposed to start under the safety car, the second lap was considered to be a "racing lap". Then after the second race start, those two laps are also considered as racing laps, even though it is behind the safety car.

So they completed 3 laps, not 2. And under the FIA rule book, half points are to be awarded because more than 2 laps were run!

6.5 If a sprint qualifying session or race is suspended under Article 50, and cannot be resumed, no points will be awarded if the leader has completed two laps or less, half points will be awarded if the leader has completed more than two laps but less than 75% of the original sprint qualifying session or race distance and full points will be awarded if the leader has completed 75% or more of the original sprint qualifying session or race distance.


https://www.fia.com/regulation/category/110


Though you misquoted me, I am all with you.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sat Sep 04, 2021 8:57 am

To bad Räikkönen will miss the Dutch Grand Prix. He was tested positive, unfortunately. Robert Kubica will have a chance to score some points.
 
B777LRF
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Sep 05, 2021 7:49 am

I've attended around half a dozen GPs over the years, mainly in Bahrain though and on sponsor tickets. Have bought my own way on 2 occasions, and it is indeed a very expensive sport to watch live. Put it this way: 3 days at a GP in Europe costs roughly the same as a 1-week vacation in the Med or, if you're being a bit carried away with the credit card in the shops, the same as a 1-week skiing trip in the Alps.

Won't be attending any more F1 races; simply too expensive for what it is. Much prefer attending endurance racing, particularly the Le Mans. Costs around the same as a F1 race, but it's a whole week of fun and the race lasts 24 instead of 1,5 hours. The best race I ever watched, however, was a warm-up to a DTM race back in the naughties. Ford Fiesta's racing in the wet, with zero regards for whether or not the car could be used again. Lots of close racing, even more of not surrendering a single inch, no politics, no team orders and more action than you can shake a stick at.

Still watch all the F1 races via F1tv, but am really wondering why I'm still sticking at it sometimes. Wasting 3 hours watching what are supposed to be the best drivers in the world, driving the most advanced racing machines in the world, be defeated by a bit of rain is utterly beyond me. Release the guys FFS, let them figure out how fast it's possible to drive around the track in any given conditions and let whatever happens, happen.
 
CRJockey
Posts: 354
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Sep 05, 2021 8:19 am

B777LRF wrote:
Wasting 3 hours watching what are supposed to be the best drivers in the world, driving the most advanced racing machines in the world, be defeated by a bit of rain is utterly beyond me. Release the guys FFS, let them figure out how fast it's possible to drive around the track in any given conditions and let whatever happens, happen.


Recent Spa was a bit of an outlier, though. Don’t disagree with your premise, though. I mean, yes, qualifying at the back of the back means bad visibility on any track there is rain. And yes, it would have meant drivers would have had to figure out how fast the track is driveable.

I guess more so than the races I do enjoy the precision of F1 rather than the racing. It is after all incredible how close lap time has become within the pack and between Verstappen and Hamilton.

True though, if you wanna see close racing, go and see Porsche Cup or something along those lines.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Sep 05, 2021 11:18 am

B777LRF wrote:
Still watch all the F1 races via F1tv, but am really wondering why I'm still sticking at it sometimes. Wasting 3 hours watching what are supposed to be the best drivers in the world, driving the most advanced racing machines in the world, be defeated by a bit of rain is utterly beyond me. Release the guys FFS, let them figure out how fast it's possible to drive around the track in any given conditions and let whatever happens, happen.


There were plenty of exciting races this season (Imola, Baku & Paul Ricard for one). Why focus on an outlier?
 
B777LRF
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Sep 05, 2021 1:47 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
B777LRF wrote:
Still watch all the F1 races via F1tv, but am really wondering why I'm still sticking at it sometimes. Wasting 3 hours watching what are supposed to be the best drivers in the world, driving the most advanced racing machines in the world, be defeated by a bit of rain is utterly beyond me. Release the guys FFS, let them figure out how fast it's possible to drive around the track in any given conditions and let whatever happens, happen.


There were plenty of exciting races this season (Imola, Baku & Paul Ricard for one). Why focus on an outlier?


Notice I used the word "sometimes". This weekend I'm wondering the same as Zandvoort, as feared, is turning out to be like Monaco, just faster.
 
CRJockey
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Sep 05, 2021 3:53 pm

B777LRF wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
B777LRF wrote:
Still watch all the F1 races via F1tv, but am really wondering why I'm still sticking at it sometimes. Wasting 3 hours watching what are supposed to be the best drivers in the world, driving the most advanced racing machines in the world, be defeated by a bit of rain is utterly beyond me. Release the guys FFS, let them figure out how fast it's possible to drive around the track in any given conditions and let whatever happens, happen.


There were plenty of exciting races this season (Imola, Baku & Paul Ricard for one). Why focus on an outlier?


Notice I used the word "sometimes". This weekend I'm wondering the same as Zandvoort, as feared, is turning out to be like Monaco, just faster.


But not really true. It was an exciting race. Yeah, agree, not „American-Style“ burning cars and lots of accidents and meaningless overtakes.
But seeing the strategy unfold, seeing the incredible precision of delivering the lap times needed and seeing Perez going through the field after bottleing quali and his first stint was an interesting race.

Congrats to Max and Lewis. It is close as it hasn’t been in years.

Gasly with a strong but uneventful race.

Disappointed with RIC, though. I really wish him well more than anyone. But he damn needs to up his game. That isn’t good enough.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Sep 05, 2021 8:30 pm

The Red bull machine has proven quite a bit faster. It seems the championship is for Verstappen to lose.
 
StarAC17
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Sep 06, 2021 1:41 am

B777LRF wrote:

Still watch all the F1 races via F1tv, but am really wondering why I'm still sticking at it sometimes. Wasting 3 hours watching what are supposed to be the best drivers in the world, driving the most advanced racing machines in the world, be defeated by a bit of rain is utterly beyond me. Release the guys FFS, let them figure out how fast it's possible to drive around the track in any given conditions and let whatever happens, happen.


It's not the car per sey. An individual car on wets isn't an issue but at that speed the spray is everywhere and visibility is the issue. If you can't see the cars around you then you have no awareness and incidents will happen at such a level that you will have constant safety cars and red flags.
 
marcelh
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:29 am

Dutchy wrote:
The Red bull machine has proven quite a bit faster. It seems the championship is for Verstappen to lose.


The race isn’t over yet.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Sep 06, 2021 8:21 am

marcelh wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
The Red bull machine has proven quite a bit faster. It seems the championship is for Verstappen to lose.


The race isn’t over yet.


Nope, indeed it isn't, just saying that Verstappen seems to be on the right track here.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Sep 06, 2021 11:34 am

F1's worst kept secret is now out - Bottas to Alfa. Obviously Russell's going to Mercedes. Now who will take the Williams seat - Albon?

https://twitter.com/F1/status/1434841673897553923
 
CRJockey
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Sep 06, 2021 12:34 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
F1's worst kept secret is now out - Bottas to Alfa. Obviously Russell's going to Mercedes. Now who will take the Williams seat - Albon?

https://twitter.com/F1/status/1434841673897553923


Would be nice for Alex. Hold my thumbs for him. And I would love to see Zhou in a seat as well, just to improve Asian representation of the sport.
 
Flanker7
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Sep 06, 2021 3:41 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
F1's worst kept secret is now out - Bottas to Alfa. Obviously Russell's going to Mercedes. Now who will take the Williams seat - Albon?

https://twitter.com/F1/status/1434841673897553923
i can see de Vries moving to Williams, Mercedes engines and he is on the merc payroll driving the Mercedes E formula.
 
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zkojq
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Sep 06, 2021 4:29 pm

I think that Lewis is learning just how good Max really is. No mistakes all weekend long.

mad99 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
That was a complete and utter farce. Frankly a disgrace that points were awarded for following the SC for two laps. It’s an insult to any driver that actually raced and won F1 points.

How can two laps behind the SC constitute “racing”? Even drivers are saying this is a nonsense. There has to be a rule change to spell out that a minimum number of laps of green flag racing has to happen in order to award points.



Imagine had you paid to go see it! Sorry no refund the race was put on and the results posted…
Worse then the usa gp and the tyre issues…well just as bad anyway


At the USGP they at least got six cars racing. Two of those, the Ferraris, were very fast which is what the fans come to see.

If it's not possible to 'race' then at least do an hours worth of laps behind the Safety Car so that the spectators get to see something. You might clear a bit of water anyway.

Revelation wrote:
Price of participation is a real thing. US GP in Austin would presumably cost me double that due to airfare and needed accommodation. Canadian GP in MTL would be a lot more viable, a five hour drive away, but also a significant financial commitment. Had a friend who went to MTL a few years ago and said he didn't enjoy it.


There'll be one in Miami in a year or two.

Revelation wrote:
Speaking of which, anyone have any F1 podcast they recommend, especially for newbies?


Missed Apex is really good. I particularly recommend their periodic interviews with Matthew Carter (former Lotus F1 CEO). Most of the panels are biased towards Hamilton/BritishDrivers but they rotate the panel enough that this isn't too much of an issue.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCh0DXE ... gHA/videos

https://missedapexpodcast.com/

Aesma wrote:
They simply had their cars configured for the rain and everyone else for the dry, knowing F1 doesn't have races under the rain anyway, at most on drying conditions.

If the race had happened with drying conditions, the Williams would have been last.


But it didn't happen in drying conditions, so their qualifying results were strong. I don't get the complaining about the awarding of points in the situation at Spa. At the end of the day for some races qualifying is more important than others. Case in point; very rarely does the Race Classification for Monaco look any different to the Qualifying Classification (at least for points scoring positions). Thus points are effectively awarded on a Saturday.

Most of the people complaining about the awarding of points for Spa would be perfectly fine with it if doing so was favoring their favorite driver/team.

scbriml wrote:
If F1 is unable to provide a race (as opposed to the farce that they called a race), even due to circumstances beyond their control, they should refund the crowd. Spa, the circuit, provided all the facilities they were required to, so I don’t see how they can be financially responsible. Even if F1 gave everyone a 50% refund, they’d be seen in a far better light than they are right now.


Agreed. As it stands, the Race Promoters will be put out of business if they have to refund tickets. This is an unacceptable situation and one that Liberty Media should be stepping into to ensure if appropriately rectified. There are a lot of very dedicated motorsport fans in the US who haven't been to a race since the 2005 USGP because of the debacle there. Not a good thing when Liberty is trying to grow the sport - the damage will be huge.

One would think that the event be insured for such situations? The 2020 Australian Grand Prix was insured (which meant that those of us who bought tickets and tried to attend) got refunds - eventually.

Spa and Austria are tracks that I'd most like to visit as a spectator, but due to the logistical issues pointed out earlier I doubt that I ever will. I've got no intention whatsoever to trek through thick mud in the Ardennes Forrest for multiple kilometres (pretty sure my Great Grandfather did that in WWI) inorder to get in and out of the circuit. Respect to those who have the stamina and will power to do so though.

I've been to Melbourne and Monaco - both of which were fantastic experiences. Maybe I'll do Hungary or Spain sometime in the future.

Revelation wrote:
The way money works in F1 feels different to other sports, especially with some driver's dads buying their son's way on to the teams. Big money certainly influences other sports, but I'm having a hard time finding precedents like that at the highest levels of other sports. Other sports with single athletes have some form of elimination that weeds them out before the final rounds of the competition.


It's unfortunately the way it is. Unfortunately working your way up the Junior Formulas is super expensive (Karting at a high level is ~€100,000 per season, F2 is the best bit of €3,000,000) and the money has to come from somewhere. Thankfully Academies like Red Bull and Alpine offer some hope for those from more modest backgrounds, but you've still got to spend a lot of money to rise a long way up to ever get considered by them. Like you say though, there is a disproportionate amount of Centimillionaire and Billionaires kids (+ grand kids) on the grid. From memory:

- Nikita Mazepin. His father owns Uralkali.
- Lance Stroll. His father Lawrence (fashion empire + owner of Aston Martin).
- Lando Norris. Father owns (or owned) a significant holding of Hargreaves Lansdown.
- Nicholas Latifi. Both of his parents are individually multi-billionaires through different food companies - his Father's (Sofina) doing mainly meats and his Mother's (Saputo) dairy.
- Charles Leclerc. Grandfather Charles Manni was a billionaire who founded Auto-Parts maker Mecaplast (now Novares). Nevertheless, he does a great job pretending that he comes from humble beginnings. ;)
- Mick Schumacher. Father was Michael Schumacher.

Additionally, Sainz and Verstappen's fathers were very successful racing drivers with plenty of money to fund junior careers.

Makes it all the sweeter when someone like Esteban Ocon - who spend most of his childhood homeless, living in a caravan - does well and wins a race. Coincidentally, he's now the only one on the grid to have ever held a "real" job (a single shift flipping burgers, before he got a call from Eric Boulier which saved his career). Before that it was Kevin Magnussen who worked as a Welder in 2008 and Romain Grosjean who was briefly a banker.

From memory, Sergei Sirotkin is the only F1 driver in recent history to hold a University Degree (engineering). I believe Nico Rosberg was part way through a degree in Aerospace Engineering when he switched to GP2.

Paydrivers have always been part of the sport. Some turn out all right (Lauda), but overall things are definitely going in the wrong direction. I don't think there's any realistic solutions to it though.

Revelation wrote:
F1 lets them onto the same track as those who are there due to merit not parent's patronage.


The Superlicense system was introduced for just this reason and is supposed to ensure that the likes of Dan Ticktum, Sean Galeal, Roy Nissany and Alessio Deledda are very unlikely to ever make it up to F1.

StarAC17 wrote:
While his Dad does own Aston Martin he does have the talent to hold his own in F1. He has 2 podiums IIRC, has qualified on pole and regularly scores points. He needs to work on his consistency but the Aston Martin car has had its challenges this year. He probably does deserve to be there.


Yes, he probably deserves to be there at this point in time, but the point is that his father's money bought him lots and lots of second chances. Lots of private F1 testing as well. Ocon, Gasly, Palmer, Wehrlein, Albon, Sirotkin, Vandoorne and Nasr never had such chances. Sink or swim. In Wehrlein's case he swam quite well but still had his F1 career cut prematurely short.

Four Seasons of Formula One to get to the point where you can hold your own is an opportunity that just about nobody has. Similarly, having your father buy the most dominant junior team (Prema) and then put in a relatively very weak driver as your teammate (Nick Cassidy) to get you a nice easy Formula Three title isn't something that many people have a chance of.

StarAC17 wrote:
Nikita Mazepin and Nicholas Latifi need to prove themselves soon or even thought their dad's own their teams they will be shown the door if they can't improve. Latifi has shown a lot of improvement this year especially in the last few races. Nothing close to George Russell but two races with points. Belgium didn't really count but he did get into Q2.


At least with Latifi he always has a fantastic attitude and always looks genuinely chuffed (+ grateful) to actually be in F1. Can't say the same for Lance who usually seems completely nonchalant about it all. And obviously, the less said about Mazepin's attitude the better..... especially with his antics with Mick in the race.

And I agree with you that Latifi has shown a lot of improvement. I suspect that next year we might learn just how good George really is, which could make Latifi's qualifying record against him look a bit less awful.

CRJockey wrote:
Recent Spa was a bit of an outlier, though. Don’t disagree with your premise, though. I mean, yes, qualifying at the back of the back means bad visibility on any track there is rain. And yes, it would have meant drivers would have had to figure out how fast the track is driveable.


Yes, I believe the safety issue was the visibility, not the actual water per-se. I wonder if there's an engineering solution to it. I think also that the serious accident in the W Series the day prior as well as Anthoine Hubert's death in 2019 probably informed a lot of race control's decision making regarding what was safe or not. I don't detest that decision, but what happened at Spa cannot be allowed to happen again and contingencies must be made.

CRJockey wrote:
I guess more so than the races I do enjoy the precision of F1 rather than the racing. It is after all incredible how close lap time has become within the pack and between Verstappen and Hamilton.


For me it's the pure speed. Just seeing how quick the cars are IRL is just utterly bewildering. I know it sounds stereotypical, but most of the video footage you see on TV doesn't do it justice at all. When I was a kid, my father took me to watch various other racing series (V8 Supercars, Toyota Racing Series, Porsche Supercup, WRC etc) but completely lost all interest in them after my first Formula One experience.
 
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zkojq
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Sep 06, 2021 4:30 pm

With Daniel Ricciardo underperforming so badly this year, what is the chance of McLaren snapping up Gasly to replace him? Yesterday he actually had a decent race for once but McLaren sacrificed him for Norris anyway. A sign of things to come?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:03 pm

Flanker7 wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
F1's worst kept secret is now out - Bottas to Alfa. Obviously Russell's going to Mercedes. Now who will take the Williams seat - Albon?

https://twitter.com/F1/status/1434841673897553923
i can see de Vries moving to Williams, Mercedes engines and he is on the merc payroll driving the Mercedes E formula.


Me to, would be good to see de Vries in F1.
 
petertenthije
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:37 pm

zkojq wrote:
I think that Lewis is learning just how good Max really is. No mistakes all weekend long.

I would like to think Louis already knew. Max is ahead of him even though he did not finish two races (Azerbaijian due to tires, Britain due to Mercedes) and nearly got bumped out of Hungary again by Mercedes.
 
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Aesma
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Sep 06, 2021 6:20 pm

Too bad they're not in the same car. We know Lewis is very good in quali, and Verstappen is good too, so did 38/1000th of a second between them come from the car or from the drivers ? Looking at the race you could think the Mercedes is significantly slower, but that would mean Lewis is better...
 
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Dutchy
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:17 pm

would indeed be interesting if they have the same car. But some of the fun of F1 is that the teams do matter, it is not just the driver.
 
CRJockey
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Sep 06, 2021 9:33 pm

Aesma wrote:
Too bad they're not in the same car. We know Lewis is very good in quali, and Verstappen is good too, so did 38/1000th of a second between them come from the car or from the drivers ? Looking at the race you could think the Mercedes is significantly slower, but that would mean Lewis is better...


Or it means Lewis is as good on low fuel but not as good with a heavy car. I don’t believe that, just saying…
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Sep 06, 2021 10:50 pm

Aesma wrote:
Too bad they're not in the same car. We know Lewis is very good in quali, and Verstappen is good too, so did 38/1000th of a second between them come from the car or from the drivers ? Looking at the race you could think the Mercedes is significantly slower, but that would mean Lewis is better...


Verstappen was 38/1000th of a second faster despite making a mistake of double shifting from 4th to 6th in Turn 3 & having issues with his DRS at the final sector.

He'd probably be faster if he didn't have those issues.
 
Flanker7
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Tue Sep 07, 2021 12:35 pm

Now it's official Russel to Mercedes next year. Lewis will have his hands full with this guy.
 
Flanker7
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Wed Sep 08, 2021 12:22 pm

Albon got the Williams seat for next year.
 
CRJockey
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Wed Sep 08, 2021 6:25 pm

Congrats to Albon. Hope he can show what he is capable of after Red Bull was not having the patience required…
 
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mad99
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Thu Sep 09, 2021 6:25 am

Super
Thailand red bull paying for the seat for this not very fast driver!
 
marcelh
Posts: 1591
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Thu Sep 09, 2021 9:57 am

mad99 wrote:
Super
Thailand red bull paying for the seat for this not very fast driver!


Clearly a step back in drivers potential.

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