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marcelh
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:14 am

CRJockey wrote:
Congrats to Albon. Hope he can show what he is capable of after Red Bull was not having the patience required…


Not having the patience? He had the opportunity for 1,5 years to become a valuable second driver behind Verstappen. Also his perfomance in 2020 was worse than in 2019, so there was no reason for RBR to keep him.
 
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mad99
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Thu Sep 09, 2021 2:42 pm

Williams know that he’s bringing money to pay for the seat. If I remember correctly, he was about 0,7 seconds slower then Max on average.
 
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Revelation
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Thu Sep 09, 2021 2:45 pm

I found the video How Verstappen denied Russell a shock F1 pole at Spa | 3D qualifying lap analysis quite interesting. Basically the fastest qualifying laps of the two are overlaid in 3D to show where one gains speed vs the other. Would be nice to have this for Lewis vs Max for our discussion above.

zkojq wrote:
Paydrivers have always been part of the sport. Some turn out all right (Lauda), but overall things are definitely going in the wrong direction. I don't think there's any realistic solutions to it though.

Thanks for this post and the preceding very informative info and analysis which I did not repeat. This sentence sums things up quite well. It simply is an expensive sport to compete in. DTS said that Mercedes has 1400 employees on its team. Clearly this is more expensive than something like football. Raising the money needed to compete at a high level is always going to be its own challenge with its own issues. Sadly the sons of very wealthy individuals will have an edge since so much money is needed to compete.

mad99 wrote:
Super
Thailand red bull paying for the seat for this not very fast driver!

It's interesting to note as a newbie that all the coverage I watched/read did not raise this as a factor at all, nor even the money factor in general. DTS followed him around at his home and showed his mom a lot. I don't recall much if anything being said about how he was able to fund his racing career nor that he had sponsors that would help further his career.

He did not look fast compared to Max, but it seems that's a high standard to meet. Daniel also struggled vs Max, no? Perez is not setting the world on fire, so it seems. Maybe it's more that Max is setting a high standard that others have to struggle to meet.
 
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mad99
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Fri Sep 10, 2021 2:00 pm

Revelation wrote:
I found the video How Verstappen denied Russell a shock F1 pole at Spa | 3D qualifying lap analysis quite interesting. Basically the fastest qualifying laps of the two are overlaid in 3D to show where one gains speed vs the other. Would be nice to have this for Lewis vs Max for our discussion above.

zkojq wrote:
Paydrivers have always been part of the sport. Some turn out all right (Lauda), but overall things are definitely going in the wrong direction. I don't think there's any realistic solutions to it though.

Thanks for this post and the preceding very informative info and analysis which I did not repeat. This sentence sums things up quite well. It simply is an expensive sport to compete in. DTS said that Mercedes has 1400 employees on its team. Clearly this is more expensive than something like football. Raising the money needed to compete at a high level is always going to be its own challenge with its own issues. Sadly the sons of very wealthy individuals will have an edge since so much money is needed to compete.

mad99 wrote:
Super
Thailand red bull paying for the seat for this not very fast driver!

It's interesting to note as a newbie that all the coverage I watched/read did not raise this as a factor at all, nor even the money factor in general. DTS followed him around at his home and showed his mom a lot. I don't recall much if anything being said about how he was able to fund his racing career nor that he had sponsors that would help further his career.

He did not look fast compared to Max, but it seems that's a high standard to meet. Daniel also struggled vs Max, no? Perez is not setting the world on fire, so it seems. Maybe it's more that Max is setting a high standard that others have to struggle to meet.



https://pattayatoday.net/thai-f1-driver ... fraudster/
Above is the reason they follow his mum around, she’s famous!

Money has always been a part of F1 drivers seats but now were getting to the point that for half the grid is just a hobby
 
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scbriml
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Fri Sep 10, 2021 2:22 pm

marcelh wrote:
CRJockey wrote:
Congrats to Albon. Hope he can show what he is capable of after Red Bull was not having the patience required…


Not having the patience? He had the opportunity for 1,5 years to become a valuable second driver behind Verstappen. Also his perfomance in 2020 was worse than in 2019, so there was no reason for RBR to keep him.


On that basis, Perez will be Red Bull history soon as well.
 
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Revelation
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Fri Sep 10, 2021 2:38 pm

mad99 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
It's interesting to note as a newbie that all the coverage I watched/read did not raise this as a factor at all, nor even the money factor in general. DTS followed him around at his home and showed his mom a lot. I don't recall much if anything being said about how he was able to fund his racing career nor that he had sponsors that would help further his career.

https://pattayatoday.net/thai-f1-driver ... fraudster/
Above is the reason they follow his mum around, she’s famous!

Money has always been a part of F1 drivers seats but now were getting to the point that for half the grid is just a hobby

Very interesting. I binge watched three seasons of DTS over a few evenings so I didn't pick up on all the detail, but I do recall them saying his mom had been jailed and that there was a lot of shame involved in that, but they did not dive deep into it. They showed Alex and his mom and siblings living in a very average house which did not show the kind of wealth some other drivers have access to. The article says she went into jail in 2012 for six years so it doesn't seem likely her swindling helped Alex's career at all. If I'm doing my math right, he would have been in jail when Alex was aged 13 to 19, so at a time where he'd need a lot of support. It's crazy to think that the woman was living in a moated country estate off the money she swindled off others.
 
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Revelation
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Fri Sep 10, 2021 2:44 pm

scbriml wrote:
marcelh wrote:
CRJockey wrote:
Congrats to Albon. Hope he can show what he is capable of after Red Bull was not having the patience required…

Not having the patience? He had the opportunity for 1,5 years to become a valuable second driver behind Verstappen. Also his perfomance in 2020 was worse than in 2019, so there was no reason for RBR to keep him.

On that basis, Perez will be Red Bull history soon as well.

Why, do we think Perez's performances are declining? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergio_P% ... 1%E2%80%93) suggests they are at worst mixed. RB must think he is not declining, they are keeping him next season.
 
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scbriml
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Fri Sep 10, 2021 3:53 pm

Revelation wrote:
scbriml wrote:
marcelh wrote:

Not having the patience? He had the opportunity for 1,5 years to become a valuable second driver behind Verstappen. Also his perfomance in 2020 was worse than in 2019, so there was no reason for RBR to keep him.

On that basis, Perez will be Red Bull history soon as well.

Why, do we think Perez's performances are declining? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergio_P% ... 1%E2%80%93) suggests they are at worst mixed. RB must think he is not declining, they are keeping him next season.


Ha, Red Bull has shown us their contracts aren't actually worth the paper they're written on!

In my opinion, his performances have been somewhat underwhelming. Yes, he's picked up a race win (somewhat fortuitously) but he's languishing in P5 in the WDC behind both Bottas and Norris (my driver of the season so far). He was brought in specifically to help Verstappen win the WDC by removing the "Two Mercs vs One Red Bull" situations that we've seen for the last couple of seasons. IIRC, he's only managed that once or twice so far this season. The rest of the time he hasn't been a factor at the front of the race. I accept he's had some bad luck, but so has Verstappen and he's still leading the WDC.

Don't get me wrong, it's great that the fight is close, but Red Bull should be way out in front of both Championships.
 
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Revelation
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:54 pm

scbriml wrote:
Revelation wrote:
scbriml wrote:
On that basis, Perez will be Red Bull history soon as well.

Why, do we think Perez's performances are declining? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergio_P% ... 1%E2%80%93) suggests they are at worst mixed. RB must think he is not declining, they are keeping him next season.

Ha, Red Bull has shown us their contracts aren't actually worth the paper they're written on!

In my opinion, his performances have been somewhat underwhelming. Yes, he's picked up a race win (somewhat fortuitously) but he's languishing in P5 in the WDC behind both Bottas and Norris (my driver of the season so far). He was brought in specifically to help Verstappen win the WDC by removing the "Two Mercs vs One Red Bull" situations that we've seen for the last couple of seasons. IIRC, he's only managed that once or twice so far this season. The rest of the time he hasn't been a factor at the front of the race. I accept he's had some bad luck, but so has Verstappen and he's still leading the WDC.

Don't get me wrong, it's great that the fight is close, but Red Bull should be way out in front of both Championships.

Again, I'm a newbie and my perceptions were formed via watching three seasons of DTS plus now watching this season as it unfolds. That means I started with RB using Renault power and them languishing as a team, so maybe this means my expectations of them are lower. My perception is if the expectation was that Perez would be a game changer then that was pretty aspirational, he didn't seem to have game changing talent. My perception is that RB's success this year is more that Max is a notch above other drivers more so than the RB car is a notch above other cars. Maybe I'm wrong on that, but it does fit with the idea that Perez is not excelling now that he's in a RB car, and all the other "second drivers" I've seen in RB over this 3.5 year window (Ricciardo, Gasly, Albon and Perez) don't get better when they get into the RB car. Hopefully things get clearer over the remaining races.
 
Daysleeper
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Fri Sep 10, 2021 10:56 pm

scbriml wrote:
Revelation wrote:
scbriml wrote:
On that basis, Perez will be Red Bull history soon as well.

Why, do we think Perez's performances are declining? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergio_P% ... 1%E2%80%93) suggests they are at worst mixed. RB must think he is not declining, they are keeping him next season.


Ha, Red Bull has shown us their contracts aren't actually worth the paper they're written on!

In my opinion, his performances have been somewhat underwhelming. Yes, he's picked up a race win (somewhat fortuitously) but he's languishing in P5 in the WDC behind both Bottas and Norris (my driver of the season so far). He was brought in specifically to help Verstappen win the WDC by removing the "Two Mercs vs One Red Bull" situations that we've seen for the last couple of seasons. IIRC, he's only managed that once or twice so far this season. The rest of the time he hasn't been a factor at the front of the race. I accept he's had some bad luck, but so has Verstappen and he's still leading the WDC.

Don't get me wrong, it's great that the fight is close, but Red Bull should be way out in front of both Championships.


Perez needs some breathing room and a little time to get used to a new car and team. Daniel Riccardo’s move to McLaren has shown that it takes a little time to get the most out of a new car. He is a particularly good example as he was able to keep up with Max at Redbull so we know he is quick and can win races with the right car, and Norris shows us that the McLaren has the pace if you know how to drive it.

I think if Perez knew his seat was secure for the next season, then he would be able to relax and show his potential. RedBulls history with Gasley and Albon must also not help his frame of mind.

I found out today that Sprint qualifying is going to turn into a “mini” race next season, with the drivers able to score a few points but having no effect on the race start order. I actually liked the fact it dictated the start order and although it distracted a little from timed qualifying I made the effort to watch both. If its just a race for a few points, I doubt I will – Kinda like how I don’t really care who gets the fastest lap for 1 extra point…I mean well done but.. meh
 
marcelh
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sat Sep 11, 2021 8:43 am

scbriml wrote:
marcelh wrote:
CRJockey wrote:
Congrats to Albon. Hope he can show what he is capable of after Red Bull was not having the patience required…


Not having the patience? He had the opportunity for 1,5 years to become a valuable second driver behind Verstappen. Also his perfomance in 2020 was worse than in 2019, so there was no reason for RBR to keep him.


On that basis, Perez will be Red Bull history soon as well.


Why? Albon had a better average score in his first season (2019) than in his second (2020). Perez has scored already more points this year than Albon did in 2020, so there is no reason to dump Perez. He has to improve qualifying to fight with Bottas/Norris, but IMHO it’s way too early to dump him. RBR may have learned their lesson with Gasly…..
 
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Dutchy
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sat Sep 11, 2021 4:34 pm

So wow Hamilton lost big time in Monza. Verstappen has put himself in a good position to win Monza and expand its lead in the championship. Daniel Ricciardo did well, good for him.
 
marcelh
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Sep 12, 2021 1:42 pm

HAM did it again…..
 
Daysleeper
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Sep 12, 2021 1:46 pm

Posting this on lap 26, this race has had everything so far!

Anyone not watching, really should be.

Riccardo for the win!!
 
marcelh
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:15 pm

Daysleeper wrote:

Riccardo for the win!!


O yeah, we want a shoey! :spit:

Great drive from Ricciardo and also fastest lap.
Norris second
Bottas third

Some people will get very drunk!! :bigthumbsup:
Last edited by marcelh on Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Daysleeper
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:28 pm

marcelh wrote:
Daysleeper wrote:

Riccardo for the win!!


O yeah, we want a shoey! :spit:


Oh yeah forgot about Daniels “strange” traditions – He also apparently wants a NASCAR drive if he wins for McLaren.

What get’s me about this win though is that it really was deserved. We have had upsets before like Ocon, Gasly and Russel – not that they weren’t deserved but other events in the race certainly helped them. With this, Riccardo was still in the mix for the win even if Hamilton and Max hadn’t collided.

Checo and Botas both deserve a mention too - faultless performances keeping the constructors championship interesting.

Fantastic race though....lets see if Zach takes the shoey :)
 
marcelh
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:47 pm

Daysleeper wrote:
lets see if Zach takes the shoey :)

He took it! :bigthumbsup:
 
Virtual737
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Sep 12, 2021 3:49 pm

marcelh wrote:
HAM did it again…..


The professionals I've heard so far have been either 50/50 or MV at fault. Now we wait to see what the stewards think.
 
petertenthije
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Sep 12, 2021 3:55 pm

Virtual737 wrote:
marcelh wrote:
HAM did it again…..


The professionals I've heard so far have been either 50/50 or MV at fault. Now we wait to see what the stewards think.

Definitely a tough call. Either a racing incident, or 60/40 blame for max on dutch radio.
 
marcelh
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Sep 12, 2021 4:03 pm

petertenthije wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:
marcelh wrote:
HAM did it again…..


The professionals I've heard so far have been either 50/50 or MV at fault. Now we wait to see what the stewards think.

Definitely a tough call. Either a racing incident, or 60/40 blame for max on dutch radio.


Look at the start from both yesterday’s sprintrace (VER and RIC) and today (HAM and NOR). The inside car leaves enough space for the outside car in both corners. IMHO HAM should have done the same this time. Having the outside line from 2nd corner he should have passed VER.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Sep 12, 2021 4:38 pm

Virtual737 wrote:
marcelh wrote:
HAM did it again…..


The professionals I've heard so far have been either 50/50 or MV at fault. Now we wait to see what the stewards think.


It was a racing incident that leans toward Hamilton for he didn't give adequate space.

Some might argue that Max didn't give Lewis space on lap 1 and pushed Lewis off who had to back off, but in that instance, Max was on a defensive line and thus had to take a somewhat wider line to make the next corner. In the case of the turn 2 incident, Lewis was on the racing line and could have chosen a slightly wider line to give space to Max.

In any case, it was the first time that I actually screamed at my screen. Very happy for Danny Ricciardo for finally proving that he can win in a car other than Red Bull.

As far as seasons go, 2021 is right up there among the best!
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Sep 12, 2021 4:56 pm

Max has been given a 3-place grid penalty for the next race.

Whether the penalty is fair or not, is open for debate. But in my opinion F1 needs to fix its penalty system. Hamilton ran a car off at high speed and got a 10-sec penalty which he was able to claw back easily. Verstappen had an incident at much lower speed, gets a grid penalty.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CTupkS9Ikx2/
 
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Dutchy
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Sep 12, 2021 5:14 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Max has been given a 3-place grid penalty for the next race.

Whether the penalty is fair or not, is open for debate.


Apparently, Hamilton needs to win the F-1. They seem to rule in favour of Hamilton, each and every time there is an incident.
 
marcelh
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Sep 12, 2021 5:35 pm

Dutchy wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Max has been given a 3-place grid penalty for the next race.

Whether the penalty is fair or not, is open for debate.


Apparently, Hamilton needs to win the F-1. They seem to rule in favour of Hamilton, each and every time there is an incident.

Could have been worse. VER is ending this weekend with 2 points more than HAM.
 
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Aesma
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Sep 12, 2021 5:53 pm

Verstappen complains about not being given space but he never gives space. Hamilton is taking this into account and will never again give him space.
 
astuteman
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Sep 12, 2021 6:10 pm

marcelh wrote:
HAM did it again…..


Did what?
Get bunged by Verstappen again?
Or have you changed your mind about the veracity of the stewards now that the outcome doesn't suit?
I remember how "right" they were to predominantly blame Hamilton at Silverstone.

For the record, in his interview, Christian Horner said he viewed it as a racing incident.
And all the shenanigans post Silverstone show us the lengths he will go to to protect he is of his driver.....
Think you're going to have to suck this one up, to be honest.
 
astuteman
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Sep 12, 2021 6:13 pm

Aesma wrote:
Verstappen complains about not being given space but he never gives space. Hamilton is taking this into account and will never again give him space.


:highfive:

This is what it is really about.
A driver with an inflated sense of entitlement who thinks he's the only one who never needs to give way, but hides behind being "hard but fair" - until someone does it to him.
Hopefully this year can be a step in the learning process.
He's a great driver, and his time will come.
Rgds
 
marcelh
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Sep 12, 2021 6:41 pm

Aesma wrote:
Verstappen complains about not being given space but he never gives space.

The usual suspect is trying to make a point. Watch start and first corner of the sprintrace from yesterday and you will see the unthinkable: VER is giving space to RIC.

Hamilton is taking this into account and will never again give him space.

We’ll see…
 
marcelh
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Sep 12, 2021 6:50 pm

astuteman wrote:
A driver with an inflated sense of entitlement who thinks he's the only one who never needs to give way, but hides behind being "hard but fair" - until someone does it to him.”
HAM was wrong at Silverstone, but got away with a victory. The 10 second penalty was a joke.
Hopefully this year can be a step in the learning process.
He's a great driver, and his time will come.
Rgds

He’s already there and it is his time. Hamilton is under pressure and has had just more luck. VER tried and lost today and has a nice goal for next race. Get pole position and race hard.
 
petertenthije
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Sep 12, 2021 7:24 pm

astuteman wrote:
A driver with an inflated sense of entitlement who thinks he's the only one who never needs to give way, but hides behind being "hard but fair" - until someone does it to him.

Are you talking about Lewis or Max, cause the description equally fits both.
 
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Revelation
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Sep 12, 2021 7:46 pm

Aesma wrote:
Verstappen complains about not being given space but he never gives space. Hamilton is taking this into account and will never again give him space.

I have no dog in this fight, but will say it's got to be unforgettable to have a car land on your head. As was written above, I too am thankful for the halo.
 
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scbriml
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Sep 12, 2021 9:49 pm

marcelh wrote:
HAM did it again…..


No he didn't, Verstappen penalised.

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Max has been given a 3-place grid penalty for the next race.

Whether the penalty is fair or not, is open for debate. But in my opinion F1 needs to fix its penalty system. Hamilton ran a car off at high speed and got a 10-sec penalty which he was able to claw back easily. Verstappen had an incident at much lower speed, gets a grid penalty.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CTupkS9Ikx2/


They were both penalised for the same thing - being predominantly responsible for a collision. A three place grid penalty is 24m. That's a lot less than 10s in an F1 car, especially one as fast as the Red Bull.
 
Daysleeper
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Sep 12, 2021 10:00 pm

I think it was the kerb rather than either of the drivers what caused this. Watching the replays, you can see Max try to get the car to move over to his left and avoid Lewis then as soon as he hits the kerb it pushes him into and eventually over Lewis.

Should he have backed off and avoided going off the track, yeah, but…this is a tough one. To me it’s a racing incident.

I think the penalty system is slowly sucking the life out of this sport though, at this rate it won’t be long until the entire race is essentially one long formation lap. They seem to punish any racing driver who dares to actually race and entertain the fans.
 
Daysleeper
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Sep 12, 2021 10:22 pm

Thinking a little more about this, but doesn't Max need an engine swap before the end of the season? Hence, would have to start from the back at one of the remaining races. So I wonder if he takes an engine at the next race if the stewards would consider that the penalty has been applied
 
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T18
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Sep 12, 2021 11:10 pm

Daysleeper wrote:
Thinking a little more about this, but doesn't Max need an engine swap before the end of the season? Hence, would have to start from the back at one of the remaining races. So I wonder if he takes an engine at the next race if the stewards would consider that the penalty has been applied


I believe the penalties would stack.
 
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scbriml
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Sep 12, 2021 11:21 pm

Daysleeper wrote:
Thinking a little more about this, but doesn't Max need an engine swap before the end of the season? Hence, would have to start from the back at one of the remaining races. So I wonder if he takes an engine at the next race if the stewards would consider that the penalty has been applied


Yes, Verstappen will almost certainly have to take engine penalties. However, Hamilton will also at some point. I'll be very surprised if any drive is able to avoid engine penalties this season.

The penalty will be applied at Sochi. If Red Bull decide to take a complete set of new engine components, then he'll have addition grid penalties to add on top of the three from the stewards. He can't start any further back than last, even if he has 100 grid penalties. So yes, they would effectively just "swallow" the three from today - it could be argued that he would not really be penalised, but them's the rules.

Thinking about it a bit more, a three place drop isn't as much of a no-brainer (to take the engine penalties) as a 10-place penalty would have been. Three places is just 24m. But, as we saw today, Bottas started last and managed to finish 3rd.
 
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scbriml
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Sep 12, 2021 11:24 pm

Revelation wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Verstappen complains about not being given space but he never gives space. Hamilton is taking this into account and will never again give him space.

I have no dog in this fight, but will say it's got to be unforgettable to have a car land on your head. As was written above, I too am thankful for the halo.


Yes, both Verstappen and Hamilton have now been lucky to escape serious injury this season.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Sep 13, 2021 12:08 am

astuteman wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Verstappen complains about not being given space but he never gives space. Hamilton is taking this into account and will never again give him space.


:highfive:

This is what it is really about.
A driver with an inflated sense of entitlement who thinks he's the only one who never needs to give way, but hides behind being "hard but fair" - until someone does it to him.
Hopefully this year can be a step in the learning process.
He's a great driver, and his time will come.
Rgds


You can say the same about Hamilton. Let's not forget, he has punted a Red Bull car off the track several times in the past few years as well. Why was he able to give space to other drivers but not the Red Bulls?

scbriml wrote:
They were both penalised for the same thing - being predominantly responsible for a collision. A three place grid penalty is 24m. That's a lot less than 10s in an F1 car, especially one as fast as the Red Bull.


Given how Lewis was able to recover and win the British Grand Prix inspite of the penalty, can one say it's the same penalty? What if Max couldn't qualify on pole at Sochi? He will have to start further back. And last time I look Sochi wasn't a great track for overtaking so there goes his chances of recovery. It's not the same as Bottas starting from the back and ending up in 3rd in Monza.

Looking at the Sprint race, it's clear that Lewis could have given Max space by going wider into Turn 2. Lando Norris did it to Lewis himself during the start of the sprint race and both emerged unscathed. Why can't Lewis do the same to Max?
 
Virtual737
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Sep 13, 2021 2:02 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:

Looking at the Sprint race, it's clear that Lewis could have given Max space by going wider into Turn 2. Lando Norris did it to Lewis himself during the start of the sprint race and both emerged unscathed. Why can't Lewis do the same to Max?


They could have gone out to dinner afterwards and held hands too.

It's racing. MV has been deemed as being predominantly at fault and has been given a penalty. He also showed his true class when, having seen his rear wheel sitting on Hamilton's head, he did nothing but trundle off in a sulk.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Sep 13, 2021 2:22 am

Virtual737 wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:

Looking at the Sprint race, it's clear that Lewis could have given Max space by going wider into Turn 2. Lando Norris did it to Lewis himself during the start of the sprint race and both emerged unscathed. Why can't Lewis do the same to Max?


They could have gone out to dinner afterwards and held hands too.

It's racing. MV has been deemed as being predominantly at fault and has been given a penalty. He also showed his true class when, having seen his rear wheel sitting on Hamilton's head, he did nothing but trundle off in a sulk.


Given that LH was consistently trying to reverse the car, what else should he do?

Verstappen did look to the Mercedes, saw that Hamilton was fine, and walked away to avoid confrontation. If I were Max, I'd go to Hamilton and screamed my ass off, probably even throw a punch or two.
 
Virtual737
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Sep 13, 2021 2:39 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Verstappen did look to the Mercedes, saw that Hamilton was fine, and walked away to avoid confrontation.


I'm sure that was exactly his mindset.

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
If I were Max, I'd go to Hamilton and screamed my ass off, probably even throw a punch or two.


So having been predominantly at fault, you would then have gone over and punched the guy you just took out of the race? Sounds like something out of the Jos Verstappen playbook? https://www.auto123.com/en/news/jos-verstappen-arrested-by-the-police-in-the-netherlands/34735/?folder=industry
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Sep 13, 2021 2:46 am

Virtual737 wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Verstappen did look to the Mercedes, saw that Hamilton was fine, and walked away to avoid confrontation.


I'm sure that was exactly his mindset.

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
If I were Max, I'd go to Hamilton and screamed my ass off, probably even throw a punch or two.


So having been predominantly at fault, you would then have gone over and punched the guy you just took out of the race? Sounds like something out of the Jos Verstappen playbook? https://www.auto123.com/en/news/jos-verstappen-arrested-by-the-police-in-the-netherlands/34735/?folder=industry


You're just grasping at straws, really.

As for the stewards, they may have decided that Max was at fault, but they may not be 100% accurate. Explain to me how at the start of the race, Lando & Lewis was side by side at the corner, and Lewis took the same line as Max, but was able to get away unscathed?

Just goes to show that if Lewis wanted to, he could have given Max some space. And expecting Max to back off is a bit off - Max was on the harder tyres and he knows that this is his only chance to stay ahead of Lewis. Had he failed, he would have seen Lewis scamper off into the distance.
 
Virtual737
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Sep 13, 2021 2:59 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:

You're just grasping at straws, really.



Because I'm not in agreement with you? Max is becoming almost everything that his supporters seem to hate about Lewis (minus the 7 WDCs of course). His supporters at least as blinkered as those of LH.

TheFlyingDisk wrote:

And expecting Max to back off is a bit off - Max was on the harder tyres and he knows that this is his only chance to stay ahead of Lewis. Had he failed, he would have seen Lewis scamper off into the distance.


You do know how racing works? Perhaps the above explains Max's rash choice which ultimately led to him taking out Lewis and resulting in the penalty, which you still seem to be blaming Lewis for.

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Lando & Lewis was side by side at the corner, and Lewis took the same line as Max, but was able to get away unscathed?


You mean the first corner of the race just a few seconds after the start when there were 20 cars with cold tyres and brakes all in pretty close proximity to each other?

Look at this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZgniFQiTPA at around the 34 seconds mark and show me the space MV left LH. Note that LH had to leave the track to avoid a collision, which MV decided not to do later in the race.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Sep 13, 2021 3:20 am

Virtual737 wrote:
Because I'm not in agreement with you? Max is becoming almost everything that his supporters seem to hate about Lewis (minus the 7 WDCs of course). His supporters at least as blinkered as those of LH.


Because you raised something petty like Max "not checking up on Lewis". Had you not done that, I'm perfectly fine with people disagreeing.

Virtual737 wrote:
You do know how racing works? Perhaps the above explains Max's rash choice which ultimately led to him taking out Lewis and resulting in the penalty, which you still seem to be blaming Lewis for.


I do know how racing works, and I'm still steadfast in my opinions that Lewis could have done better by giving space. He's able to give space to any other car on the track but the Red Bull (not just Max, but any Red Bull) it seems, judging from his history over the past few years.

The race shows how things would have worked out. Look at Bottas - he's basically the only one who is able to properly overtake on the track, until he came to Perez, that is. Had Hamilton been ahead of Verstappen, Max wouldn't have been able to regain the position.

Virtual737 wrote:
Look at this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZgniFQiTPA at around the 34 seconds mark and show me the space MV left LH. Note that LH had to leave the track to avoid a collision, which MV decided not to do later in the race.


Max was taking a defensive line going into Turn 3, which compromised his entry into Turn 4. Lewis on the other hand was taking the racing line going into Turn 1. He has options to go wider and be fair on the entry into Turn 2, if he wanted to. Had he let Max pass, he could have still gotten a run at the Red Bull up the Curva Grande and slot himself nicely going into Turn 3.
 
Virtual737
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Sep 13, 2021 3:32 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:

Because you raised something petty like Max "not checking up on Lewis". Had you not done that, I'm perfectly fine with people disagreeing.



Petty? Half the racing world is talking about it. A fair number of MV fans are calling it out too.

TheFlyingDisk wrote:

I do know how racing works, and I'm still steadfast in my opinions that Lewis could have done better by giving space. He's able to give space to any other car on the track but the Red Bull (not just Max, but any Red Bull) it seems, judging from his history over the past few years.



On this occasion the stewards don't agree with you.

TheFlyingDisk wrote:

The race shows how things would have worked out. Look at Bottas - he's basically the only one who is able to properly overtake on the track, until he came to Perez, that is. Had Hamilton been ahead of Verstappen, Max wouldn't have been able to regain the position.



...and Bottas just lost his seat at Merc. The best you can hope for by mimicking his racecraft is to replicate his results, which are below par.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Sep 13, 2021 3:39 am

Virtual737 wrote:
Petty? Half the racing world is talking about it. A fair number of MV fans are calling it out too.


It is petty, and to be honest quite hypocritical. It's not like Lewis gave anything more than a cursory query on Verstappen's condition at Silverstone - which I might add was a far bigger & more impactful shunt than this.

Virtual737 wrote:
On this occasion the stewards don't agree with you.


Just because they don't agree, doesn't mean they're 100% right.

Virtual737 wrote:
...and Bottas just lost his seat at Merc. The best you can hope for by mimicking his racecraft is to replicate his results, which are below par.


Which is why Verstappen had to have a go at Hamilton as he exited the pit lane. If he didn't go, there's no doubt he wouldn't have been able to overtake. If he wants to mimic Bottas, he wouldn't have taken the chance.
 
Virtual737
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Sep 13, 2021 3:55 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:

It is petty, and to be honest quite hypocritical.



It's pretty much the exact opposite of hypocritical, and so on that note, let's leave it alone. Have a nice day.
 
marcelh
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:23 am

scbriml wrote:
marcelh wrote:
HAM did it again…..


No he didn't, Verstappen penalised.

Actually, HAM didn’t gave enough space to VER, so my statement isn’t wrong.



TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Max has been given a 3-place grid penalty for the next race.

Whether the penalty is fair or not, is open for debate. But in my opinion F1 needs to fix its penalty system. Hamilton ran a car off at high speed and got a 10-sec penalty which he was able to claw back easily. Verstappen had an incident at much lower speed, gets a grid penalty.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CTupkS9Ikx2/


They were both penalised for the same thing - being predominantly responsible for a collision. A three place grid penalty is 24m. That's a lot less than 10s in an F1 car, especially one as fast as the Red Bull.[/quote]
HAM scored 25 points for the victory at Silverstone and VER was out of the race… Wow, what a penalty….

O, and conveniently at the Silverstone crash, HAM wrecked the engine of the Red Bull, so a 10 place penalty for VER is at the horizon….yep HAM was penalized a lot at Silverstone….
 
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Aesma
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Sep 13, 2021 7:22 am

Daysleeper wrote:
I think it was the kerb rather than either of the drivers what caused this. Watching the replays, you can see Max try to get the car to move over to his left and avoid Lewis then as soon as he hits the kerb it pushes him into and eventually over Lewis.

Should he have backed off and avoided going off the track, yeah, but…this is a tough one. To me it’s a racing incident.

I think the penalty system is slowly sucking the life out of this sport though, at this rate it won’t be long until the entire race is essentially one long formation lap. They seem to punish any racing driver who dares to actually race and entertain the fans.


He could have backed off earlier and gotten him after the chicane, as many others have done, and since clearly either the Merc or the Merc engine were slower on this track.

Or he could have at least escaped to the left as he had done before and plenty others did too, including his teammate who passed 2 cars that way (and had to give the place back or got penalized...).
 
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scbriml
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Sep 13, 2021 7:34 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Given how Lewis was able to recover and win the British Grand Prix inspite of the penalty, can one say it's the same penalty?


The consequences of the penalised action are not taken into account - if Verstappen had been able to carry on at Monza he'd have been given a time penalty instead. Both drivers were penalised for the same thing - being predominantly at fault for causing a collision. What's worse in F1 - losing 10s on track or starting a race 24m further back?

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
What if Max couldn't qualify on pole at Sochi? He will have to start further back. And last time I look Sochi wasn't a great track for overtaking so there goes his chances of recovery. It's not the same as Bottas starting from the back and ending up in 3rd in Monza.


That's Verstappen's problem and a consequence of his actions. The speculation is that Red Bull will take engine penalties for him at Sochi, which means he'd be starting at the back anyway, so complaining about his penalty will be irrelevant.

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
As for the stewards, they may have decided that Max was at fault, but they may not be 100% accurate.


Funny how that works depending which driver is being penalised. :spin:

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