Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
scbriml
Topic Author
Posts: 20111
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Sep 13, 2021 7:36 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Just goes to show that if Lewis wanted to, he could have given Max some space.


The stewards said Verstappen didn't have any right to the room because he braked too late.
https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... lision.pdf
At the 50m board before Turn 1, Car 44 was significantly ahead of Car 33. Car 33 braked late and started to move alongside Car 44, although at no point in the sequence does Car 33 get any further forward than just behind the front wheel of Car 44.
...
The Stewards observed on CCTV footage that the driver of Car 44 was driving an avoiding line, although his position caused Car 33 to go onto the kerb. But further, the Stewards observed that Car 33 was not at all alongside Car 44 until significantly into the entry into Turn 1. In the opinion of the Stewards, this manoeuvre was attempted too late for the driver of Car 33 to have “the right to racing room”. While Car 44 could have steered further from the kerb to avoid the incident, the Stewards determined that his position was reasonable and therefore find that the driver of Car 33 was predominantly to blame for the incident."

And a reminder (as per Silverstone)
In coming to the penalty the Stewards emphasise that they have only considered the incident itself and not the consequences thereof.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Topic Author
Posts: 20111
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Sep 13, 2021 7:39 am

marcelh wrote:
Actually, HAM didn’t gave enough space to VER, so my statement isn’t wrong.


Verstappen didn't have the right to any room per the race stewards. That's why he was penalised.

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... lision.pdf
 
User avatar
scbriml
Topic Author
Posts: 20111
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Sep 13, 2021 7:44 am

Aesma wrote:
Or he could have at least escaped to the left as he had done before and plenty others did too, including his teammate who passed 2 cars that way (and had to give the place back or got penalized...).


Yes, there were other options, but it seems Verstappen decided colliding with Hamilton was the preferred option. As he so proudly says "I never back down."
 
User avatar
TheFlyingDisk
Posts: 2359
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:43 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:03 am

Aesma wrote:
He could have backed off earlier and gotten him after the chicane, as many others have done, and since clearly either the Merc or the Merc engine were slower on this track.

Or he could have at least escaped to the left as he had done before and plenty others did too, including his teammate who passed 2 cars that way (and had to give the place back or got penalized...).


Given that Mercedes was on the mediums, he wouldn't have been able to get ahead had he backed off.

scbriml wrote:
The stewards said Verstappen didn't have any right to the room because he braked too late.
https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... lision.pdf
At the 50m board before Turn 1, Car 44 was significantly ahead of Car 33. Car 33 braked late and started to move alongside Car 44, although at no point in the sequence does Car 33 get any further forward than just behind the front wheel of Car 44.
...
The Stewards observed on CCTV footage that the driver of Car 44 was driving an avoiding line, although his position caused Car 33 to go onto the kerb. But further, the Stewards observed that Car 33 was not at all alongside Car 44 until significantly into the entry into Turn 1. In the opinion of the Stewards, this manoeuvre was attempted too late for the driver of Car 33 to have “the right to racing room”. While Car 44 could have steered further from the kerb to avoid the incident, the Stewards determined that his position was reasonable and therefore find that the driver of Car 33 was predominantly to blame for the incident."

And a reminder (as per Silverstone)
In coming to the penalty the Stewards emphasise that they have only considered the incident itself and not the consequences thereof.


If Max braked too late, how was he able to make the corner? There was no tell tale signs that he braked too late. It's not like he ran off the race track to make the overtaking attempt, or bumped into Hamilton to slow down. So Red Bull should be penalized because their car is better under braking?

I've watched the footage repeatedly, and had Lewis been just a bit further to the right, Max wouldn't have touched the sausage kerbs & both cars would have exited the turn unscathed - and even the damn stewards stated as much. It shouldn't have mattered when Max made the attempt - if he was able to make the corner, he should have "the right to racing room".
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 14738
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:32 am

What they mean by racing room is "allowing the other to overtake because he's side by side or in front". Otherwise there is a racing line and the car in front is entitled to it. There is room for interpretation depending on the corner, but in chicanes, not really, because they're narrow, there often are sausage kerbs, it's easy to back down. At Silverstone the stewards decided that VER was entitled to the racing line, they're consistent.

According to that same rule VER could have been penalized for the first lap clash with HAM because there they were side by side. He wasn't because there was no crash as HAM avoided it, and because it was the first lap.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Topic Author
Posts: 20111
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:33 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Given that Mercedes was on the mediums, he wouldn't have been able to get ahead had he backed off.


Hamilton on hards managed to overtake Norris on mediums - it took a while, but he managed it. There was plenty of the race left. Instead he decided to cause a collision, minimising the potential loss of WDC points. Maybe he even knew he was going to take engine penalties at Sochi so a grid penalty wouldn't matter if he went out?

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
If Max braked too late, how was he able to make the corner? There was no tell tale signs that he braked too late. It's not like he ran off the race track to make the overtaking attempt, or bumped into Hamilton to slow down. So Red Bull should be penalized because their car is better under braking?

I've watched the footage repeatedly, and had Lewis been just a bit further to the right, Max wouldn't have touched the sausage kerbs & both cars would have exited the turn unscathed - and even the damn stewards stated as much. It shouldn't have mattered when Max made the attempt - if he was able to make the corner, he should have "the right to racing room".


In the opinion of the Stewards, this manoeuvre was attempted too late for the driver of Car 33 to have “the right to racing room”.

After Silverstone, you wrote "Argue all you like but Hamilton was at fault. Otherwise the stewards wouldn't have given him the penalty". Why are you not applying the same logic for Monza?
 
User avatar
TheFlyingDisk
Posts: 2359
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:43 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:50 am

scbriml wrote:
Hamilton on hards managed to overtake Norris on mediums - it took a while, but he managed it. There was plenty of the race left. Instead he decided to cause a collision, minimising the potential loss of WDC points. Maybe he even knew he was going to take engine penalties at Sochi so a grid penalty wouldn't matter if he went out?


You mean the overtake on heavy fuel loads with the softs degrading faster, as compared to further on the race when the loads are lighter and softs can last longer?

Come on, let's not kid ourselves. It's clear that Max isn't going to get Lewis - at best he's able to close in but go no further, like Bottas-Perez.

scbriml wrote:
After Silverstone, you wrote "Argue all you like but Hamilton was at fault. Otherwise the stewards wouldn't have given him the penalty". Why are you not applying the same logic for Monza?


Because for one, the circumstances between the two incidents are different. Take a look at the decision the stewards made at Silverstone

The Stewards reviewed video and telemetry evidence. Cars 33 and 44 entered turn 9 with Car 33 in the lead and Car 44 slightly behind and on the inside. Car 44 was on a line that did not reach the apex of the corner, with room available to the inside. When Car 33 turned into the corner, Car 44 did not avoid contact and the left front of Car 44 contacted the right rear of Car 33. Car 44 is judged predominantly at fault.

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... r%2033.pdf


Secondly, the stewards for this race are different from the Silverstone race. So me questioning their decision does not in any way contradict what I wrote back then. Having read the release for the Silverstone race, it's clear that the stewards there were unequivocal that Hamilton was at fault, whereas in Monza the stewards there believe that Hamilton could have given more room.

I would have been fine if they decided to chalk it as a racing incident. But their reasoning for penalizing Verstappen doesn't really make sense, which is why I chose to question it.

Aesma wrote:
What they mean by racing room is "allowing the other to overtake because he's side by side or in front". Otherwise there is a racing line and the car in front is entitled to it. There is room for interpretation depending on the corner, but in chicanes, not really, because they're narrow, there often are sausage kerbs, it's easy to back down. At Silverstone the stewards decided that VER was entitled to the racing line, they're consistent.

According to that same rule VER could have been penalized for the first lap clash with HAM because there they were side by side. He wasn't because there was no crash as HAM avoided it, and because it was the first lap.


Max was closer to Hamilton's side than Hamilton was in Silverstone. The fact that the stewards chose to use the technicality that Verstappen "started the manouver late" doesn't make sense. Basically they're saying Max is wrong because he was able to use the Red Bull's braking performance to brake later than Hamilton and try to take the inside line into the corner.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 12579
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Sep 13, 2021 9:12 am

scbriml wrote:
In the opinion of the Stewards, this manoeuvre was attempted too late for the driver of Car 33 to have “the right to racing room”.


In the end, that is the only opinion that matters. Unfortunately, that's it. Now Max has a grit penalty, it would be a strategy good move to change his engine and take the penalty for that as well. Russia isn't his place anyway.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 14738
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Sep 13, 2021 9:22 am

I'm not exactly sure what they mean about the late maneuver but it could be that Hamilton was comfortably in front and wouldn't have expected VER to be where he was due to the late attack.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Topic Author
Posts: 20111
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Sep 13, 2021 9:55 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
You mean the overtake on heavy fuel loads with the softs degrading faster, as compared to further on the race when the loads are lighter and softs can last longer?


Nobody except Mazepin ran softs in the race.

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Secondly, the stewards for this race are different from the Silverstone race. So me questioning their decision does not in any way contradict what I wrote back then. Having read the release for the Silverstone race, it's clear that the stewards there were unequivocal that Hamilton was at fault, whereas in Monza the stewards there believe that Hamilton could have given more room.


The stewards said "While Car 44 could have steered further from the kerb to avoid the incident, the Stewards determined that his position was reasonable and therefore find that the driver of Car 33 was predominantly to blame for the incident." In both incidents one driver was deemed to be "predominantly at fault". That driver was penalised in both incidents.

Your opinion differs, which is unsurprising. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
User avatar
TheFlyingDisk
Posts: 2359
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:43 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:48 am

scbriml wrote:
Your opinion differs, which is unsurprising. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


Of course it differs. The situation is different, as it's not as clear cut as it was in Silverstone. Only Hamilton supporters think the situation are the same & that Max warrants a penalty for his actions just because Lewis got one in Silverstone.

Like I said, had the stewards judge it to be a racing incident, I would have been fine with it. The fact that they chose to blame Verstappen is contentious, especially given the reasoning.
 
Daysleeper
Posts: 630
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2009 3:33 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:53 am

scbriml wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Or he could have at least escaped to the left as he had done before and plenty others did too, including his teammate who passed 2 cars that way (and had to give the place back or got penalized...).


Yes, there were other options, but it seems Verstappen decided colliding with Hamilton was the preferred option. As he so proudly says "I never back down."


Do you really think it was that malicious and pre-planned?

Perhaps he thought that he may catch wheel to wheel and push Lewis into the gravel, but I have a hard time believing he actually wanted to take them both out. I agree with you somewhat in that Max’s attitude isn’t great, but that’s hardly unique in racing drivers. Remember Senna? If this incident had involved him there wouldn’t be any debate as he would have either driven straight at him or slashed his tyres before the race.

Full disclosure: I follow teams more than drivers and as a Williams fan (I know, but my grandad was so…) don’t really care either way. I just like to see racing.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Topic Author
Posts: 20111
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:06 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Like I said, had the stewards judge it to be a racing incident, I would have been fine with it. The fact that they chose to blame Verstappen is contentious, especially given the reasoning.


Red Bull don't seem to find it very contentious. The lack of moaning from Horner and Marko is notable and telling.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Topic Author
Posts: 20111
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:16 am

Daysleeper wrote:
Do you really think it was that malicious and pre-planned?


Pre-planned? No. But all through his career Verstappen's approach has been "I'm coming through, you'd better give me room or we'll collide. You don't want us to collide, do you?" He's got away with it most times and maybe this time as well, depending what Red Bull decide to do at Sochi.
 
User avatar
TheFlyingDisk
Posts: 2359
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:43 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:17 am

scbriml wrote:
Red Bull don't seem to find it very contentious. The lack of moaning from Horner and Marko is notable and telling.


Just because Horner & Marko are silent doesn't make it less contentious. Having experienced the futility of protesting the FIA back in Silverstone, it's understandable why they chose to not make a fuss out of this.
 
Reinhardt
Posts: 444
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:05 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:44 am

scbriml wrote:
Daysleeper wrote:
Do you really think it was that malicious and pre-planned?


Pre-planned? No. But all through his career Verstappen's approach has been "I'm coming through, you'd better give me room or we'll collide. You don't want us to collide, do you?" He's got away with it most times and maybe this time as well, depending what Red Bull decide to do at Sochi.


Completely correct. He has always expected other drivers to back down or make way for him, every time. He's going for the world championship. It's one thing to be fast, it's another to have a the ability to know when to fight, and when not to. He has no other mode than full out attack. Which is fun to watch when the sparks fly, but you can't always do that when you need points to win a championship.
 
User avatar
TheFlyingDisk
Posts: 2359
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:43 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:58 am

Reinhardt wrote:
Completely correct. He has always expected other drivers to back down or make way for him, every time. He's going for the world championship. It's one thing to be fast, it's another to have a the ability to know when to fight, and when not to. He has no other mode than full out attack. Which is fun to watch when the sparks fly, but you can't always do that when you need points to win a championship.


Thing is Verstappen's aggressive style only caused trouble during his early years. From 2019 onwards, rarely if ever has he ever caused a crash that takes out his competitor.

It's only with Hamilton that things goes up a notch.

What we're seeing now is a repeat of the 2016 season. Hamilton crashed into Rosberg several times that year if I recall correctly.
 
Daysleeper
Posts: 630
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2009 3:33 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Sep 13, 2021 12:38 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Reinhardt wrote:
Completely correct. He has always expected other drivers to back down or make way for him, every time. He's going for the world championship. It's one thing to be fast, it's another to have a the ability to know when to fight, and when not to. He has no other mode than full out attack. Which is fun to watch when the sparks fly, but you can't always do that when you need points to win a championship.


Thing is Verstappen's aggressive style only caused trouble during his early years. From 2019 onwards, rarely if ever has he ever caused a crash that takes out his competitor.

It's only with Hamilton that things goes up a notch.

What we're seeing now is a repeat of the 2016 season. Hamilton crashed into Rosberg several times that year if I recall correctly.


Perhaps that’s because as others have suggested, Max has met his match with Hamilton in that he will not be bullied out of the way. When we have seen his aggressive style used in the past it has predominantly been against an opponent in a slower car, so it wasn’t really worth the risk for the driver to fight for the position they would inevitably lose due to the Red Bulls pace.

Ultimately if Max want’s the championship he is going to have to learn to play nice, as I can’t see Lewis backing down. There is a reason he has 7 world titles, you mention Rosberg, I don’t want to re-hash what went on 5 years ago but if you followed what he said after retiring he openly admits that many of the incidents with Lewis were down to himself and his single-minded focus on winning no matter what. And look what it cost him he won the title but chose to quit F1 rather than face Lewis again.

As I said, Max needs to learn how to play nice with Lewis :)
 
Virtual737
Posts: 1212
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:16 am

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Sep 13, 2021 12:42 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Hamilton crashed into Rosberg several times that year if I recall correctly.


You might want to check out the footage of, let's say Austria and Spain that year before suggesting Hamilton was the instigator.
 
User avatar
TheFlyingDisk
Posts: 2359
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:43 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:04 pm

Virtual737 wrote:
You might want to check out the footage of, let's say Austria and Spain that year before suggesting Hamilton was the instigator.


I did. To say that he was not at fault for Spain is foolhardy. As for Austria, fair enough.
 
Virtual737
Posts: 1212
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:16 am

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:13 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
To say that he was not at fault for Spain


You mean the one where Nico moved hard right off the racing line and pushed Lewis completely off the track would be foolhardy to apportion blame to Nico? Even if they weren't in the same team it would have been bad.

Time to take the blinkers off as it's becoming rather embarrassing.
 
User avatar
TheFlyingDisk
Posts: 2359
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:43 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:43 pm

Virtual737 wrote:
You mean the one where Nico moved hard right off the racing line and pushed Lewis completely off the track would be foolhardy to apportion blame to Nico? Even if they weren't in the same team it would have been bad.

Time to take the blinkers off as it's becoming rather embarrassing.


Rosberg was defending from Hamilton's slipstreaming him right up the inside for the corner. It's not like Rosberg only started pushing Hamilton when he was along side Rosberg.

Hamilton could have moved back to the racing line and taken him on the outside of the corner. Or he could have backed out - what irony given how you lot have been pillorying Verstappen for not backing out.
 
Virtual737
Posts: 1212
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:16 am

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:54 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:
You mean the one where Nico moved hard right off the racing line and pushed Lewis completely off the track would be foolhardy to apportion blame to Nico? Even if they weren't in the same team it would have been bad.

Time to take the blinkers off as it's becoming rather embarrassing.


Rosberg was defending from Hamilton's slipstreaming him right up the inside for the corner. It's not like Rosberg only started pushing Hamilton when he was along side Rosberg.

Hamilton could have moved back to the racing line and taken him on the outside of the corner. Or he could have backed out - what irony given how you lot have been pillorying Verstappen for not backing out.


While Verstappen remains a 1 dimensional driver he'll be pilloried for far more than that. He's become everything that "you lot" (to use your phrase) accuse Lewis of being, without the success to backup the well developed mouth and attitude, as of yet.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Topic Author
Posts: 20111
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:55 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Red Bull don't seem to find it very contentious. The lack of moaning from Horner and Marko is notable and telling.


Just because Horner & Marko are silent doesn't make it less contentious. Having experienced the futility of protesting the FIA back in Silverstone, it's understandable why they chose to not make a fuss out of this.


Red Bull's Silverstone protest was comedy gold that was rightly thrown out. :rotfl:

Horner and Marko are never short of a comment (or several) when they think they've been wronged. Their silence is telling.
 
marcelh
Posts: 1532
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Sep 13, 2021 2:08 pm

scbriml wrote:
but it seems Verstappen decided colliding with Hamilton was the preferred option.


This is comparable as stating HAM kicked out VER deliberately at Silverstone…
 
Virtual737
Posts: 1212
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:16 am

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Sep 13, 2021 2:15 pm

marcelh wrote:
scbriml wrote:
but it seems Verstappen decided colliding with Hamilton was the preferred option.


This is comparable as stating HAM kicked out VER deliberately at Silverstone…


That's pretty much what RB said in their complaint. The stewards told them where to go and it didn't include collecting $200.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Topic Author
Posts: 20111
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:26 pm

marcelh wrote:
scbriml wrote:
but it seems Verstappen decided colliding with Hamilton was the preferred option.


This is comparable as stating HAM kicked out VER deliberately at Silverstone…


Which plenty of folks claimed, some going as far as to suggest Hamilton tried to kill Verstappen. Ridiculous, no?

I'm sure you'll agree that "The stewards gave a penalty, so no discussion about who’s to blame; that’s obviously VER." :wink2:
 
StarAC17
Posts: 4158
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 11:54 am

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:06 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Your opinion differs, which is unsurprising. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


Of course it differs. The situation is different, as it's not as clear cut as it was in Silverstone. Only Hamilton supporters think the situation are the same & that Max warrants a penalty for his actions just because Lewis got one in Silverstone.

Like I said, had the stewards judge it to be a racing incident, I would have been fine with it. The fact that they chose to blame Verstappen is contentious, especially given the reasoning.


I am a fan of Hamilton but I think they were both racing incidents and that each penalty was fair. Its interesting that major crashed between Hamilton and Verstappen happened after sprint races where a dry run of the race were observed the day before. Both drivers at the point of their crashed knew that the key overtake had to have been taken at that point on the track or overtaking would be hard.

They both could have backed off at Silverstone but both knew from the previous sprint race that it was cops corner or bust. Same with Monza and that first chicane (perhaps also turns 3 and 4). The person behind after this point would have been at the back of a DRS/Slipstream chain and overtaking would have been hard.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 26681
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:24 pm

Virtual737 wrote:
marcelh wrote:
scbriml wrote:
but it seems Verstappen decided colliding with Hamilton was the preferred option.

This is comparable as stating HAM kicked out VER deliberately at Silverstone…

That's pretty much what RB said in their complaint. The stewards told them where to go and it didn't include collecting $200.

Yesterday, Toto Wolff said:

“In football, they call it a ‘tactical foul’, he probably knew that if Lewis stays then that’s the race win gone.”

Ref: https://the-race.com/formula-1/wolff-ac ... ton-clash/

Stewards judge the act itself, and don't consider the intentions or the ramifications, yet when one speaks of "tactical fouls" it's all about the intentions and the ramifications.

The sport is in a bit of a jam because it's impossible to know what's in a man's heart.

If what was written earlier in this thread is true, Rosberg admitted committing such tactical fouls, but after he left the sport, therefore we know they are a part of the sport, but can't really find a way to legislate them out. Maybe I'm reading that wrong, but still, it seems we can conclude they are a part of the sport regardless, no?

Maybe there does have to be some weighting of intentions and ramifications when levying penalties?

What a slippery slope...
 
Virtual737
Posts: 1212
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:16 am

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:34 pm

Revelation wrote:
What a slippery slope...


I don't think there's much, if anything to worry about. "Professional fouls" have existed in F1 for decades. Senna did it, as did Schumacher and even Damon Hill. The penalties nowadays are potentially harsher and the telemetry and camera angles make it easier to catch blatant examples.

I tend to believe that everything evens out over time. Lewis got lucky at the British GP because the penalty, which was probably about right or perhaps a little on the lenient side didn't stop him winning. It was still a penalty and he still had to recover the time. MV is slightly on the lucky side (although less so than Lewis was) in that his 3 position penalty will likely be taken at the same time as engine penalties, so he's unlikely to be in a worse position than he was already going to be prior to the Monza incident.

This season is one of the most talked about in years, so it's all good.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Topic Author
Posts: 20111
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Tue Sep 14, 2021 7:28 am

Virtual737 wrote:
Lewis got lucky at the British GP because the penalty, which was probably about right or perhaps a little on the lenient side didn't stop him winning. It was still a penalty and he still had to recover the time.


Given the stewards do not take into account the consequences of an incident, Hamilton's penalty at Silverstone was pretty standard for a driver deemed responsible for a collision and who is still in the race. The lucky part, in my view, was that he was able to continue and have some repairs to his car under the red flag.

Virtual737 wrote:
MV is slightly on the lucky side (although less so than Lewis was) in that his 3 position penalty will likely be taken at the same time as engine penalties, so he's unlikely to be in a worse position than he was already going to be prior to the Monza incident.


A three place grid penalty is nothing for a top driver in a top car (with the possible exception of it happening at Monaco). It's literally 24m on the track, which is a lot less than 10s on track at racing speeds.

Being able to effectively negate a penalty by taking new engine components is probably something that needs to be looked at. They fixed the ludicrous situation where teams could take multiple new engines at a single race "for free", now IMHO, they need to remove this wrinkle.
 
Virtual737
Posts: 1212
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:16 am

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Tue Sep 14, 2021 11:55 am

scbriml wrote:
The lucky part, in my view, was that he was able to continue and have some repairs to his car under the red flag.



Yep, MV still has to learn the art of taking out the rival while being able to continue the race. Lewis got it almost spot on at Silverstone ;)

scbriml wrote:
It's literally 24m on the track, which is a lot less than 10s on track at racing speeds.


Depends who that puts you behind in terms of track position. Alonso showed earlier this year that a single position on track at a certain stage in the race could easily make a 10 point difference come the chequered flag. If the choice was 10s behind in clear air or 3 positions on the road, I think LH would take the former every day of the week and twice on a GP Sunday.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 14738
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Tue Sep 14, 2021 1:39 pm

Well at Monza a few grid spots made a lot of difference, with the Merc having a lot of trouble passing the Macca.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Topic Author
Posts: 20111
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Tue Sep 14, 2021 1:49 pm

Virtual737 wrote:
Depends who that puts you behind in terms of track position. Alonso showed earlier this year that a single position on track at a certain stage in the race could easily make a 10 point difference come the chequered flag. If the choice was 10s behind in clear air or 3 positions on the road, I think LH would take the former every day of the week and twice on a GP Sunday.


Yes, I was being somewhat tongue-in-cheek.

Aesma wrote:
Well at Monza a few grid spots made a lot of difference, with the Merc having a lot of trouble passing the Macca.


The issue specifically at Monza is that everyone runs such skinny rear wings, that the DRS effect is significantly reduced (and I think they removed DRS from the back straight). Hence we often see a "DRS train" at Monza.
 
marcelh
Posts: 1532
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Thu Sep 16, 2021 12:31 pm

scbriml wrote:
A three place grid penalty is nothing for a top driver in a top car (with the possible exception of it happening at Monaco). It's literally 24m on the track, which is a lot less than 10s on track at racing speeds.
.


You are clearly downplaying the penalty of VER. We also discussed the possibility of taking a new engine at Spa, accepting the 10 place penalty and what that could mean to survive the first corner/lap. As Hungary has shown, you can be scr.wed big time even when you have a decent start position. Another “braking mishap” is possible…..
 
User avatar
scbriml
Topic Author
Posts: 20111
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:17 pm

marcelh wrote:
scbriml wrote:
A three place grid penalty is nothing for a top driver in a top car (with the possible exception of it happening at Monaco). It's literally 24m on the track, which is a lot less than 10s on track at racing speeds.
.


You are clearly downplaying the penalty of VER. We also discussed the possibility of taking a new engine at Spa, accepting the 10 place penalty and what that could mean to survive the first corner/lap. As Hungary has shown, you can be scr.wed big time even when you have a decent start position. Another “braking mishap” is possible…..


As we saw with Bottas at Monza, a team is very unlikely to only take a new ICE, they'll almost certainly take all the other engine components and a gearbox as well. Assuming Red Bull do that, Verstappen will start from the back of the grid. If they do it at Sochi, then his three-place grid penalty effectively disappears. If Bottas can start last and finish P3 (say P5 if Hamilton and Verstappen were still running), I have no doubt Verstappen can do the same, or even better.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 26681
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Thu Sep 16, 2021 11:42 pm

'Crashalong' 3D reconstruction of VER vs HAM doesn't paint Max in a good light, IMO.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbU_iUIay3w

If this is a reasonable reconstruction of what went down, I can see why Max and Christian didn't complain too much.

Or, of course, if it was a 'professional foul' they have no reason to complain, no one knows but them...
 
User avatar
TheFlyingDisk
Posts: 2359
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:43 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Fri Sep 17, 2021 6:05 am

Revelation wrote:
'Crashalong' 3D reconstruction of VER vs HAM doesn't paint Max in a good light, IMO.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbU_iUIay3w

If this is a reasonable reconstruction of what went down, I can see why Max and Christian didn't complain too much.

Or, of course, if it was a 'professional foul' they have no reason to complain, no one knows but them...


One can also argue that it does prove the fact that Hamilton could have given more space & both drivers could have made the corner and live to fight another day.
 
marcelh
Posts: 1532
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Fri Sep 17, 2021 6:54 am

scbriml wrote:
marcelh wrote:
scbriml wrote:
A three place grid penalty is nothing for a top driver in a top car (with the possible exception of it happening at Monaco). It's literally 24m on the track, which is a lot less than 10s on track at racing speeds.
.


You are clearly downplaying the penalty of VER. We also discussed the possibility of taking a new engine at Spa, accepting the 10 place penalty and what that could mean to survive the first corner/lap. As Hungary has shown, you can be scr.wed big time even when you have a decent start position. Another “braking mishap” is possible…..


As we saw with Bottas at Monza, a team is very unlikely to only take a new ICE, they'll almost certainly take all the other engine components and a gearbox as well. Assuming Red Bull do that, Verstappen will start from the back of the grid. If they do it at Sochi, then his three-place grid penalty effectively disappears. If Bottas can start last and finish P3 (say P5 if Hamilton and Verstappen were still running), I have no doubt Verstappen can do the same, or even better.

I’m talking about your claim that it’s only 24 meters at the track which is -according to your statement- a lot better than a 10 seconds penalty.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Topic Author
Posts: 20111
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Fri Sep 17, 2021 9:20 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
One can also argue that it does prove the fact that Hamilton could have given more space & both drivers could have made the corner and live to fight another day.


This is what the stewards said:

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... lision.pdf
While Car 44 could have steered further from the kerb to avoid the incident, the Stewards determined that his position was reasonable and therefore find that the driver of Car 33 was predominantly to blame for the incident.
Last edited by scbriml on Fri Sep 17, 2021 9:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
notaxonrotax
Posts: 1315
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2011 2:29 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Fri Sep 17, 2021 9:40 am

Interesting discussion.....both camps have their merits.
I see a few obvious VER-haters who wouldn`t give the guy credit if he were to become WC driving backwards.

But THIS, I`m afraid, does not make any sense:

TheFlyingDisk wrote:

Take a look at the decision the stewards made at Silverstone


How could the stewards decide on a 10 second penalty (like they did in Silverstone) at Monza when both cars involved were already out?
By definition, the punishment was always going to differ from Silverstone.....due to the different outcome of the incident.
The three place grid penalty they dished out to VER is somewhat similar to a 10-second penalty they gave HAM though.

TheFlyingDisk wrote:

Secondly, the stewards for this race are different from the Silverstone race. So me questioning their decision does not in any way contradict what I wrote back then.



Ahh, you see, but that is where you are wrong.
You can`t have it both ways:

You can`t state after the one race that the decision of the Stewards stands, supposedly proving your point of view to be the correct one and then suddenly question the stewards again when things go the other way a few weeks later.
Either your argument after Silverstone wasn`t a very strong one or your argument is simply two-faced after Monza.
Choose one, please!

The fact that the names of the stewards change between races have nothing to do with how the rules are to be applied.
Just imagine that in other sports--> how many referees are out there for football for instance?
They all apply the same rules, or so they should.
If there`s doubt in people`s minds about how the rules are being applied, then people have EVERY right to question that, regardless of what the stewards have decided.
Fair game! Because mistakes by officials do happen at times, we all know that!

So stating, in arbitrarily fashion, that the incident is "such and such" based on a certain decision taken by the stewards (as you did after Silverstone) is therefore far from helpful.

Cheers!

No Tax On Rotax
 
User avatar
TheFlyingDisk
Posts: 2359
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:43 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Fri Sep 17, 2021 10:17 am

scbriml wrote:
This is what the stewards said:

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... lision.pdf
While Car 44 could have steered further from the kerb to avoid the incident, the Stewards determined that his position was reasonable and therefore find that the driver of Car 33 was predominantly to blame for the incident.


You missed the front part:

While Car 44 could have steered further from the kerb to avoid the incident, the Stewards determined that his position was reasonable and therefore find that the driver of Car 33 was predominantly to blame for the incident.


The stewards may think it's fine, but I certainly don't.

notaxonrotax wrote:
How could the stewards decide on a 10 second penalty (like they did in Silverstone) at Monza when both cars involved were already out?
By definition, the punishment was always going to differ from Silverstone.....due to the different outcome of the incident.
The three place grid penalty they dished out to VER is somewhat similar to a 10-second penalty they gave HAM though.


This is why I said they need to relook into the penalty system. Adding a 10 second penalty becomes meaningless on a track where overtaking is easily done and the car getting the penalty is the fastest car on the road.

notaxonrotax wrote:
Ahh, you see, but that is where you are wrong.
You can`t have it both ways:

You can`t state after the one race that the decision of the Stewards stands, supposedly proving your point of view to be the correct one and then suddenly question the stewards again when things go the other way a few weeks later.
Either your argument after Silverstone wasn`t a very strong one or your argument is simply two-faced after Monza.
Choose one, please!

The fact that the names of the stewards change between races have nothing to do with how the rules are to be applied.
Just imagine that in other sports--> how many referees are out there for football for instance?
They all apply the same rules, or so they should.
If there`s doubt in people`s minds about how the rules are being applied, then people have EVERY right to question that, regardless of what the stewards have decided.
Fair game! Because mistakes by officials do happen at times, we all know that!

So stating, in arbitrarily fashion, that the incident is "such and such" based on a certain decision taken by the stewards (as you did after Silverstone) is therefore far from helpful.

Cheers!

No Tax On Rotax


This is wrong because the fact of the matter is, the ruling isn't clear cut and is subject to the interpretation of the stewards. So if the stewards are different, their interpretation can differ as well. And there have been many instances in races of different stewards applying the rules in a different manner.

F1 is not football where rulings e.g. handball, offside rule etc. are unequivocal.

Like I said, if they warrant it as a racing incident I have no problem with it. But they didn't. Which is why I question the decision. I'm not questioning the stewards, just the fact that their decision may not have taken into account all circumstances.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Topic Author
Posts: 20111
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Fri Sep 17, 2021 10:33 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
You missed the front part:


No, I included it. They still penalised Verstappen.

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
The stewards may think it's fine, but I certainly don't.


Surprised Pikachu face!

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
This is wrong because the fact of the matter is, the ruling isn't clear cut and is subject to the interpretation of the stewards. So if the stewards are different, their interpretation can differ as well. And there have been many instances in races of different stewards applying the rules in a different manner.


Not forgetting that the race stewards have access to way more information than any spectator/viewer.

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Like I said, if they warrant it as a racing incident I have no problem with it. But they didn't. Which is why I question the decision. I'm not questioning the stewards, just the fact that their decision may not have taken into account all circumstances.


Which circumstances do you think weren't taken into account?
 
Virtual737
Posts: 1212
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:16 am

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:22 pm

notaxonrotax wrote:
I see a few obvious VER-haters who wouldn`t give the guy credit if he were to become WC driving backwards.


Same as anything on the interweb - apparently you can't be somewhere inbetween any more. You're either a fanboi or a hater. The infinite amount of other possibilities between those 2 extremes have magically been eliminated.

I thought and mostly still think that Max is a breath of fresh air for F1, but he is also becoming many of the things that his supporters accuse Lewis of being, not least of which, with the full support of Horner and Marko, is a whiner. He is clearly talented and has some of Schumacher's qualities in the wet, but he comes across as if he thinks he deserves all the plaudits and respect of a multiple WDC winner. He might get there, but as of yet he is 0 for 6. For sure he needs to lose some of his 1 dimensional racecraft before he reaches his full potential. "Get out of the way I'm coming through" will no longer work.

Lewis moans far too much for my liking. He is also massively media trained, which rubs lots of people up the wrong way. However, he's also a 7 time champion and showed at least as much talent when he arrived into F1 as Max did years later. Not bad for a black (mixed race) British kid that came from a relatively poor family.

So I treat Lewis like a 7 time champion. Come the end of this year I might treat Max like a first time champion, it only depends on the results really. You need to be a bit of an asshat to become a world champion so I wouldn't hold that against anyone.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 26681
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Fri Sep 17, 2021 3:19 pm

Virtual737 wrote:
Same as anything on the interweb - apparently you can't be somewhere inbetween any more. You're either a fanboi or a hater. The infinite amount of other possibilities between those 2 extremes have magically been eliminated.

I thought and mostly still think that Max is a breath of fresh air for F1, but he is also becoming many of the things that his supporters accuse Lewis of being, not least of which, with the full support of Horner and Marko, is a whiner. He is clearly talented and has some of Schumacher's qualities in the wet, but he comes across as if he thinks he deserves all the plaudits and respect of a multiple WDC winner. He might get there, but as of yet he is 0 for 6. For sure he needs to lose some of his 1 dimensional racecraft before he reaches his full potential. "Get out of the way I'm coming through" will no longer work.

Lewis moans far too much for my liking. He is also massively media trained, which rubs lots of people up the wrong way. However, he's also a 7 time champion and showed at least as much talent when he arrived into F1 as Max did years later. Not bad for a black (mixed race) British kid that came from a relatively poor family.

So I treat Lewis like a 7 time champion. Come the end of this year I might treat Max like a first time champion, it only depends on the results really. You need to be a bit of an asshat to become a world champion so I wouldn't hold that against anyone.

Good post. As for me, it's kinda nice to still be a newbie without a tribal allegiance to defend.
 
User avatar
TheFlyingDisk
Posts: 2359
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:43 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:25 am

Not F1, but F1 related inasmuch as the driver involved was Romain Grosjean.

Looks like he did a Max Verstappen Monza special (on a backmarker no less!) at the infamous Laguna Seca Corkscrew.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaZyUQWUsec
 
diverted
Posts: 1304
Joined: Sat May 17, 2014 3:17 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:41 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Not F1, but F1 related inasmuch as the driver involved was Romain Grosjean.

Looks like he did a Max Verstappen Monza special (on a backmarker no less!) at the infamous Laguna Seca Corkscrew.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaZyUQWUsec


Worth adding that there's no blue flags in Indy, and Romain was chasing down JJ's teammate Palou for 2nd. JJ had been instructed to try and hold up Grosjean. Earlier in the race Grosjean made some stunning passes through the corkscrew, guy was on it this weekend.
 
StarAC17
Posts: 4158
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 11:54 am

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:01 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Not F1, but F1 related inasmuch as the driver involved was Romain Grosjean.

Looks like he did a Max Verstappen Monza special (on a backmarker no less!) at the infamous Laguna Seca Corkscrew.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaZyUQWUsec


As someone who follows Grosjean after his crash last year.
This was an awesome overtake.

Also said in the next post, Blue flags should probably be required in IndyCar also.
 
User avatar
notaxonrotax
Posts: 1315
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2011 2:29 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:30 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:

the fact of the matter is, the ruling isn't clear cut and is subject to the interpretation of the stewards. So if the stewards are different, their interpretation can differ as well. And there have been many instances in races of different stewards applying the rules in a different manner.



Thank you, you just rendered your own argument after Silverstone moot.
It took a few posts, but you got there in the end, and that is all that matters.

No Tax On Rotax
 
User avatar
TheFlyingDisk
Posts: 2359
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:43 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Tue Sep 21, 2021 12:00 pm

notaxonrotax wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:

the fact of the matter is, the ruling isn't clear cut and is subject to the interpretation of the stewards. So if the stewards are different, their interpretation can differ as well. And there have been many instances in races of different stewards applying the rules in a different manner.



Thank you, you just rendered your own argument after Silverstone moot.
It took a few posts, but you got there in the end, and that is all that matters.

No Tax On Rotax


Not really. Different circumstances, different reasoning, different dynamics. So saying that the stewards were right in Silverstone, and not in Monza isn't contradictory, no matter how you try to want it to be contradictory.

Plus the stewards in Silverstone were unequivocal that Lewis was at fault. The stewards in Monza weren't so unequivocal about Max's fault.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ArchGuy1, cskok8, scottyraven and 32 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos