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scbriml
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Nov 21, 2021 6:24 pm

Horner was called to the headmaster's office after he described the yellow flag wavers from qualifying as "out of control rogue marshals" live on Sky F1. Seems the FIA didn't like that too much.

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... Horner.pdf
The Stewards heard from the Team Principal (Christian Horner). He explained that his reaction was one that was made under the pressure of competition following the penalty imposed on the driver of Car 33.

The Stewards explained that the marshal concerned was doing his job in precisely the manner prescribed in the International Sporting Code.

Mr Horner offered to apologise to the marshal concerned and to explain to the media that he meant no offense. He also offered to participate in the 2022 FIA International Stewards Programme in early February.

The Stewards unreservedly accept Mr Horner’s offer.


I was slightly surprised he didn't get a fine, but I guess the FIA's christmas party fund has been topped up enough just recently.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Nov 21, 2021 6:26 pm

scbriml wrote:
Seems the FIA didn't like that too much.


Nope, the FIA doesn't like it when they are put into a bad light. :roll:
 
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Dutchy
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Nov 21, 2021 6:29 pm

scbriml wrote:
It's clearly a balance between performance and reliability. With so few races left, having taken a new engine for Hamilton in Brazil, they've obviously worked out they can now "turn it up to 11".


Clearly, although I was quite - pleasantly - surprised that Max Verstappen did the fasted lap in Qatar. Gives some hope for him. But it will be a close championship, which is always good for the sport.
 
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scbriml
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Nov 21, 2021 6:33 pm

Daysleeper wrote:
Oh crap! RedBull are protesting the Merc rear wing again. I hate this, it distracts from the sport.

The only link I have is Sky Sports so UK only, Ill post again when I find a better link for everyone and perhaps when there is more information, as at the moment it has just been referred to the FIA.No idea what if any action they will take.

To me this looks like a bigger pile of BS than the 0.2mm gap (apparently caused by a screw failure) of last weekend.


This seems to have died down a bit now. Horner said that Mercedes speed "was back to normal" and claimed that the new rear wing tests the FIA are conducting has stopped Mercedes. Which is all a bit misleading and no protest has been lodged.

Horner has somewhat misrepresent the new FIA tests. They are for research only to see if the tests or regs need to be tightened up for next year. They are not to test for compliance to 2021 regulations and the FIA made it clear that there would be no consequences for teams if they failed these new tests.
https://the-race.com/formula-1/new-f1-r ... omplaints/
 
Daysleeper
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Nov 21, 2021 8:05 pm

petertenthije wrote:
My guess is that the party mode that was used earlier in qualifications, and subsequently banned, has been perfected enough to be used in races. You can’t use a different setting for qualifications only, but it is fair game to use party mode for both qualifications and races.

Mercedes probably thinks / bets that party mode will thrash the engine, but that the engine will hold just long enough for the few remaining races. Besides, unlike Red Bull, Mercedes has a spare engine, because Red Bull had one engine thrashed at Silverstone. Toto confirmed they used another engine in Qatar then they did in Brazil, and that the “Brazil engine” will be used again in Saudi Arabia. The longer stretches at the Saudi track should favour the “Brazil engine”.

Dutch source for Toto’s engine statement:
https://racingnews365.nl/wolff-komt-met ... r-hamilton


Yeah a few of us were already speculating after Brazil that the Merc was in a permanent party mode, as you say the regulation states it has to be in the same mode as qualifying.

Very, very interesting regarding them “alternating” engines as they have one more spare than Red Bull. I had not thought about that. So it looks possible that they can keep this pace up until the end of the season.

I think scbriml mentioned in an earlier post that is a theory that they had been using Bottas as a test bed to see how far they could push it. Something else I hadn’t thought about, but I think he took a penalty in Silverstone for a new ICU, and has had another since then. So makes sense

scbriml wrote:
Horner was called to the headmaster's office after he described the yellow flag wavers from qualifying as "out of control rogue marshals" live on Sky F1. Seems the FIA didn't like that too much.
I was slightly surprised he didn't get a fine, but I guess the FIA's christmas party fund has been topped up enough just recently.


I’ve just watched an interview he did with Ted Kravitz about that, apparently the matter is with the stewards so there could still be a fine. But my god did he eat some humble pie: “I am so sorry if I have offended the wonderful marshals” “Oh how much I love them” “long live the FIA” it was funny to watch. Meanwhile Helmet Marco made a statement calling the FIA essentially a bunch of incompetent c*nts LMAO

scbriml wrote:
Horner has somewhat misrepresent the new FIA tests. They are for research only to see if the tests or regs need to be tightened up for next year. They are not to test for compliance to 2021 regulations and the FIA made it clear that there would be no consequences for teams if they failed these new tests.
https://the-race.com/formula-1/new-f1-r ... omplaints/


Yeah that makes sense, from the coverage I saw all the testing was being done in secret by the FIA and no one is supposed to know the exact methodology they are using. So looks like they maybe developing something for next season rather than using it in this.
 
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scbriml
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Nov 21, 2021 11:10 pm

Daysleeper wrote:
I’ve just watched an interview he did with Ted Kravitz about that, apparently the matter is with the stewards so there could still be a fine. But my god did he eat some humble pie: “I am so sorry if I have offended the wonderful marshals” “Oh how much I love them” “long live the FIA” it was funny to watch. Meanwhile Helmet Marco made a statement calling the FIA essentially a bunch of incompetent c*nts LMAO


Yeah, Horner was in full cringe apology mode after seeing the stewards. I think a slap for Marko is long overdue as well. It seems Red Bull is feeling the pressure a bit.

The stewards ruling:
https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... Horner.pdf
The Stewards heard from the Team Principal (Christian Horner). He explained that his reaction was one that was made under the pressure of competition following the penalty imposed on the driver of Car 33.

The Stewards explained that the marshal concerned was doing his job in precisely the manner prescribed in the International Sporting Code. Mr Horner offered to apologise to the marshal concerned and to explain to the media that he meant no offense.

He also offered to participate in the 2022 FIA International Stewards Programme in early February.


Meanwhile, being interviewed by Sky after the race, Wolff said that Mercedes would be "bringing all their spice to Saudi Arabia!" :rotfl:
 
cairns
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:01 pm

Get in there Lewis. I want to see eight and watch the Spice Boy implode.
 
marcelh
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Tue Nov 23, 2021 8:47 am

So HAM will use his fresh and powerful engine which gave him the victory in Brazil again in Saudi Arabia…

” They did not use the engine in Qatar because of the preponderance of high-downforce corners at the Doha circuit. The high-speed straights of the Jeddah circuit in Saudi Arabia, however, will reward raw power, and with their engine used only once and having at most two more races to go, Mercedes will be able to run it at its maximum output.

“It is long straights and we will get our spicy equipment out: the engine for Saudi Arabia,” said Wolff.

Andrew Shovlin, the Mercedes trackside engineering director, was optimistic Hamilton would be able to continue his run of form with two wins from the last two races. “If we look at the track in Saudi, I think it should suit us,” he said. “For Lewis, we have got the more powerful engine to go in the car, so that’s going to give him a useful engine.”


Source: https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/nov/22/lewis-hamilton-to-harness-power-of-new-engine-in-saudi-arabian-grand-prix
So it’s clear this engine did help HAM a lot in Brazil, despite some naysayers over here….
 
marcelh
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:05 am

cairns wrote:
Get in there Lewis. I want to see eight and watch the Spice Boy implode.

When HAM will become world champion, the stench of cheating by pushing his rival off the track at Silverstone will never disappear..
 
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scbriml
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:41 am

marcelh wrote:
Source: https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/nov/22/lewis-hamilton-to-harness-power-of-new-engine-in-saudi-arabian-grand-prix
So it’s clear this engine did help HAM a lot in Brazil, despite some naysayers over here….


Who denied a brand new engine would give some benefit?

However, the speed difference between Mercedes and Red Bull was massively over-hyped to feed the narrative. It wasn't that Hamilton was "so fast" in Brazil, it's that Verstappen was "too slow" - he was bottom of two of the timing charts and close to bottom in a third.

marcelh wrote:
When HAM will become world champion, the stench of cheating by pushing his rival off the track at Silverstone will never disappear..


"Stench of cheating"? :rotfl:
 
Daysleeper
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:39 pm

scbriml wrote:

"Stench of cheating"? :rotfl:


I am genuinely not sure who he means "cheated" Max pushed Lewis off the track in Brazil, and Lewis Max of the track at Silverstone. In fact, you could say that Lewis did a better job at it, showing us what true champions are made off LMAO

Reminds me of my Dad, he wasn't a pleasant man, and also vehemently racist. When Lewis beat Schumacher's win record last year and then equalled him in terms of championships, I called him up just to tell him. He kept telling me Lewis was a cheat because of the McLaren Spying scandal years ago and should be stripped of his titles. He died at the end of last year, so i'm not going to get to call him should Lewis manage to beat Schumacher's title count.

I really don't have a preference as to who wins the drivers championship, as I said earlier I like to follow the constructors more than a driver. But it would be nice to see the first dutch champ, and it would be nice to see Lewis beat Schumacher record.
 
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Revelation
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:34 pm

Strange to me that some are already positing HAM as world champion of this season, when he's still behind on points and only two races to go. Lots of things need to go right for him to make up the gap, IMO.
 
Daysleeper
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:53 pm

Revelation wrote:
Strange to me that some are already positing HAM as world champion of this season, when he's still behind on points and only two races to go. Lots of things need to go right for him to make up the gap, IMO.



Yeah, its still very much undecided, but after what we have seen from Lewis in the last two race - I would not bet against him.

As I said before I'm not that fussed either way, but I would like to see Lewis win if only to shut up the people who have constantly put him down as a driver by saying "well it's not talent, its because he has always had the better car* Well this season no one can say that the Red Bull wasn't competitive, and should either Lewis or Max take the tile then they have done so on merit.
 
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scbriml
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:51 pm

Revelation wrote:
Strange to me that some are already positing HAM as world champion of this season, when he's still behind on points and only two races to go. Lots of things need to go right for him to make up the gap, IMO.


Agreed. Unless something bad happens to Verstappen in one of the remaining races, Hamilton still has to win them both (one of which is a very fast street circuit they've never raced before*). While the bookies seem to have Hamilton as the marginal favourite, I think points in the bag are worth more at this stage. It's very tight and I suspect it won't be dull. We have two weeks for everyone to calm down and catch their breath.



* That's assuming the race goes ahead! There still seems to be some doubt the circuit will be ready in time. :shock:
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Wed Nov 24, 2021 2:58 am

Daysleeper wrote:
As I said before I'm not that fussed either way, but I would like to see Lewis win if only to shut up the people who have constantly put him down as a driver by saying "well it's not talent, its because he has always had the better car*


Thing is, when one looks at his record, this kind of rings true. After 2008, the best result he could get was 4th. He was beaten by Fernando Alonso in 2010 driving a Ferrari which many will admit wasn't the best car on the grid (even compared to the McLaren, let alone the Red Bull of Vettel), and his own teammate Jenson Button in 2011.

The bulk of his championship wins were with the dominant V6 Mercedes, so it's hard to argue that the car didn't contribute.
 
yonahleung
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:57 am

Daysleeper wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Strange to me that some are already positing HAM as world champion of this season, when he's still behind on points and only two races to go. Lots of things need to go right for him to make up the gap, IMO.



Yeah, its still very much undecided, but after what we have seen from Lewis in the last two race - I would not bet against him.

As I said before I'm not that fussed either way, but I would like to see Lewis win if only to shut up the people who have constantly put him down as a driver by saying "well it's not talent, its because he has always had the better car* Well this season no one can say that the Red Bull wasn't competitive, and should either Lewis or Max take the tile then they have done so on merit.

Lewis's Mercedes is obviously quicker than Max's Red Bull by a slight (but irreversible) margin in the last couple of races. As we head into the last two races which both seem to be power circuits, Lewis has got the championship in the bag already, barring a DNF or Baku.

Nico Rosberg and a research from a UK uni (forgot which one) have suggested that race results are approx. 80-90% down to the car and 10-20% down to the driver. Just tell Lewis to drive the Alpine or AlphaTauri of this season and have a go at the WDC. Not a chance.
 
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scbriml
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:11 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Thing is, when one looks at his record, this kind of rings true. After 2008, the best result he could get was 4th. He was beaten by Fernando Alonso in 2010 driving a Ferrari which many will admit wasn't the best car on the grid (even compared to the McLaren, let alone the Red Bull of Vettel), and his own teammate Jenson Button in 2011.

The bulk of his championship wins were with the dominant V6 Mercedes, so it's hard to argue that the car didn't contribute.


All of that is true (however, you slipped up in forgetting to mention him losing to Rosberg in 2016), but simply stating it ignores any of the myriad of nuance that accompanies each and every F1 season.

It's amusing how often we hear the "It's the car!" trope when discussing Hamilton's career. The Red Bull has undoubtedly been the better car for much of this season, yet when Verstappen wins it's because he's some kind of "driving god (in the second best car)". It's funny how, prior to having the best car at his disposal, Verstappen averaged less than two wins per season. Of course the, "it's the car" brigade are unable to explain why Mercedes pay Hamilton $50 million a year to drive their car if, as is often claimed, "My gran could win in that car!" It would be nice if people were at least consistent.

IF Hamilton were to win the WDC this season, then the cry will be "He had the best car again" along with "He tried to kill Verstappen". Oh, apparently there will also be some stench to go with it. In the over-70 year history of F1, I've yet to see any driver win even a single race where the car "didn't contribute". It's motorsport, of course the car contributed. :rotfl:
 
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:28 am

scbriml wrote:
All of that is true (however, you slipped up in forgetting to mention him losing to Rosberg in 2016), but simply stating it ignores any of the myriad of nuance that accompanies each and every F1 season.


There is no big nuance to be explained. Red Bull did not dominate the seasons like Mercedes did from the start of the V6 era. So if he truly was the GOAT, surely he would have been in with a shout at the title constantly. The fact that he wasn't does say something, which many Hamilton fans often ignore.

scbriml wrote:
It's amusing how often we hear the "It's the car!" trope when discussing Hamilton's career. The Red Bull has undoubtedly been the better car for much of this season, yet when Verstappen wins it's because he's some kind of "driving god (in the second best car)". It's funny how, prior to having the best car at his disposal, Verstappen averaged less than two wins per season.


During the seasons where Mercedes dominated, it does say something that a driver in a third best car is able to win races, especially considering that in 2019-2020 his teammates couldn't do so.

scbriml wrote:
Of course the, "it's the car" brigade are unable to explain why Mercedes pay Hamilton $50 million a year to drive their car if, as is often claimed, "My gran could win in that car!" It would be nice if people were at least consistent.


Why did you think it took them so long to sign a contract for this year? Russell has proven that the car's the star and they're negotiating from that position. With Russell coming in next season, the pressure's on Hamilton's back. We'll see what the "GOAT" will do when Russell starts beating him consistently.

scbriml wrote:
IF Hamilton were to win the WDC this season, then the cry will be "He had the best car again" along with "He tried to kill Verstappen". Oh, apparently there will also be some stench to go with it.


There's no doubt that Silverstone had a big impact on things. Not only did Verstappen lose points, they also lose an engine which could have been put to good use in their title hunt, the way Hamilton's doing with the engine change in Brazil. So dismiss it all you like, it doesn't change the fact that if Hamilton wins the championship he will wear Silverstone 2021 on his neck in a similar fashion to Michael Schumacher's Adelaide 1994 incident.

scbriml wrote:
In the over-70 year history of F1, I've yet to see any driver win even a single race where the car "didn't contribute". It's motorsport, of course the car contributed. :rotfl:


What about Esteban Ocon's win in Hungary? It's not like the Alpine was the fastest car on the track.
 
Daysleeper
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:58 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Thing is, when one looks at his record, this kind of rings true. After 2008, the best result he could get was 4th. He was beaten by Fernando Alonso in 2010 driving a Ferrari which many will admit wasn't the best car on the grid (even compared to the McLaren, let alone the Red Bull of Vettel), and his own teammate Jenson Button in 2011.

The bulk of his championship wins were with the dominant V6 Mercedes, so it's hard to argue that the car didn't contribute.


Huh?? In 2007 his rookie season, he lost the championship to Kimi by 1 point. Let me make that clear:In his debut season, the first time he had ever raced an F1 car he came second to Kimi a vastly more experienced driver in a Ferrari, by one point!! He also took a whole load of records for most wins, most points etc – And you think that this kind of performance validates your argument that it’s all down to the car? And in 2008 he WON the championship. I guess that’s why you specifically said “after 2008” eh?

Yes, he has had the odd bad season, but what driver hasn’t? Also when has a driver of his capability not been in one of the best cars on the grid? You could equally argue that Schumacher only managed his titles because of the domination of the Ferrari in the early 2000s and same with Vettal and the Red Bull. The good racers get the good cars.

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
There is no big nuance to be explained. Red Bull did not dominate the seasons like Mercedes did from the start of the V6 era. So if he truly was the GOAT, surely he would have been in with a shout at the title constantly. The fact that he wasn't does say something, which many Hamilton fans often ignore.


So you expect a 100% score card throughout his entire F1 career? I also not a big fan either, but I detest this disingenuous argument that he only wins because he has the faster car.

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
During the seasons where Mercedes dominated, it does say something that a driver in a third best car is able to win races, especially considering that in 2019-2020 his teammates couldn't do so.

Hang on here you cannot have it both ways. You’re saying that Max is an incredible driver because he is in the third best car and manages to win races. But you are also saying that driver skill has nothing to do with Lewis’s success, as it was all the car.

You can’t have both, either driver skill matters and it’s the reason they are able to win races or it doesn’t and whoever happens to have the faster car is always going to win. So which is it?

When Max wins its skill and when Lewis wins its because he has a better car?

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Why did you think it took them so long to sign a contract for this year? Russell has proven that the car's the star and they're negotiating from that position. With Russell coming in next season, the pressure's on Hamilton's back. We'll see what the "GOAT" will do when Russell starts beating him consistently.


I hope Russel does, as I suspect Lewis isn’t far away from retirement. I think it would be cool for him to take the 8th title and then retire on top.
 
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Wed Nov 24, 2021 2:34 pm

yonahleung wrote:
Nico Rosberg and a research from a UK uni (forgot which one) have suggested that race results are approx. 80-90% down to the car and 10-20% down to the driver. Just tell Lewis to drive the Alpine or AlphaTauri of this season and have a go at the WDC. Not a chance.

That's an interesting outcome. Feels like the old 80/20 rule. Still leaves enough wiggle room to make the various arguments rage on!
 
Daysleeper
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:17 pm

Revelation wrote:
yonahleung wrote:
Nico Rosberg and a research from a UK uni (forgot which one) have suggested that race results are approx. 80-90% down to the car and 10-20% down to the driver. Just tell Lewis to drive the Alpine or AlphaTauri of this season and have a go at the WDC. Not a chance.

That's an interesting outcome. Feels like the old 80/20 rule. Still leaves enough wiggle room to make the various arguments rage on!


I try to stay clear of such arguments, but this one really bugs me..

You remind me of kids at school who at the slightest sign of a disagreement, all immediately start shouting "Fight "Fight" "Fight" :rotfl:
 
StarAC17
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:50 pm

scbriml wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Thing is, when one looks at his record, this kind of rings true. After 2008, the best result he could get was 4th. He was beaten by Fernando Alonso in 2010 driving a Ferrari which many will admit wasn't the best car on the grid (even compared to the McLaren, let alone the Red Bull of Vettel), and his own teammate Jenson Button in 2011.

The bulk of his championship wins were with the dominant V6 Mercedes, so it's hard to argue that the car didn't contribute.


All of that is true (however, you slipped up in forgetting to mention him losing to Rosberg in 2016), but simply stating it ignores any of the myriad of nuance that accompanies each and every F1 season.

It's amusing how often we hear the "It's the car!" trope when discussing Hamilton's career. The Red Bull has undoubtedly been the better car for much of this season, yet when Verstappen wins it's because he's some kind of "driving god (in the second best car)". It's funny how, prior to having the best car at his disposal, Verstappen averaged less than two wins per season. Of course the, "it's the car" brigade are unable to explain why Mercedes pay Hamilton $50 million a year to drive their car if, as is often claimed, "My gran could win in that car!" It would be nice if people were at least consistent.

IF Hamilton were to win the WDC this season, then the cry will be "He had the best car again" along with "He tried to kill Verstappen". Oh, apparently there will also be some stench to go with it. In the over-70 year history of F1, I've yet to see any driver win even a single race where the car "didn't contribute". It's motorsport, of course the car contributed. :rotfl:


The 20% I would argue separates good from great. Niki Lauda saw something in Hamilton and he convinced him to leave McLaren when he did as he knew he was one of the best on the grid at the time.
Excuse my lack of knowledge but 2011-2012 wasn't exactly their glory years. Helmut Marko and Horner probably saw the same in Max and brought him to Toro Rosso very young for the same reason. Toto definitely sees that in George Russell as he has put a Williams on the front row twice this year.

The best drivers find the best cars and the best athletes find the best teams (or make the best teams) in all sports. F1 has the problem that there are probably more talented drivers out there but money talks and we have now what is seen as 4 pay drivers on the grid where many think there is much better talent in F2 or former F1 drivers who should still be in the sport.

I can't seem to think there is a racial undertone to a lot of these arguments. Not necessarily because Hamilton is black but that he is also a vocal BLM advocate and I would argue the most influential in that sphere of athletes globally. IMO Hamilton is a much better BLM advocate than LeBron James because I think he is a better communicator.

If you complain about Hamilton being in a pissy mood about bad races he has had this year. Monaco, Turkey, Austria, Mexico etc. but then give a pass to Verstappen for the exact same actions. He lost his s*it when Monaco qualifying was reg-flagged, has repeatedly called drivers idiots also. If you are impartial and lean towards defending Max and complaining about Lewis. Does skin colour have something to do with it? I am not accusing anyone here of this directly but this is an example of the systemic racism we see in society.

However if you rag on someone for an action but defend another for the exact same action then I would look at the deep reasons what makes that difference.

The truth between the two is that Max Verstappen was brought up with the money and resources to get into this sport and had the talent to back it up. If he ends up in the next 10-15 years breaking every one of Hamilton's records than more power to him.

Hamilton on the other hand came from a working class background and dominated Karting and the junior levels despite all of the snide comments and the fact that it was assumed he didn't belong in the sport. He speaks to this on numerous occasions and was very fortunate to grab the attention of Ron Dennis to help him get into the junior divisions and he proves his talent even today.

Today many nickname Hamilton "Blessed" which seems odd to me considering his history compared to other F1 drivers.
 
Daysleeper
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:26 pm

StarAC17 wrote:
I can't seem to think there is a racial undertone to a lot of these arguments. Not necessarily because Hamilton is black but that he is also a vocal BLM advocate and I would argue the most influential in that sphere of athletes globally. IMO Hamilton is a much better BLM advocate than LeBron James because I think he is a better communicator.

If you complain about Hamilton being in a pissy mood about bad races he has had this year. Monaco, Turkey, Austria, Mexico etc. but then give a pass to Verstappen for the exact same actions. He lost his s*it when Monaco qualifying was reg-flagged, has repeatedly called drivers idiots also. If you are impartial and lean towards defending Max and complaining about Lewis. Does skin colour have something to do with it? I am not accusing anyone here of this directly but this is an example of the systemic racism we see in society.

However if you rag on someone for an action but defend another for the exact same action then I would look at the deep reasons what makes that difference.


That's a tough one, as with sport comes passion, and I have found myself on multiple occasions using "double standards" to justify the actions of one team or driver but admonish others for doing the same. I think I posted this several pages ago, but I'll do so again. I HATED Schumacher with a passion. Ever since he was implicated in the launch control scandal whist at Benetton, I have called him the German cheat - and see I'm still doing it now. But what really cemented my hatred for him was his and Ferraris absolute dominance in the early 2000's. It made the sport boring to me, by lap 10 he would typically be 15 seconds clear up front and by the time a pit stop was due he had enough of a lead for a tyre change, fuel, coffee and a bagel and still rejoin the race in the lead. So I can understand people's frustration with just how good Lewis and Merc are and have been, perhaps if I were younger and Lewis German rather than British I'd hate him too.

StarAC17 wrote:
The truth between the two is that Max Verstappen was brought up with the money and resources to get into this sport and had the talent to back it up. If he ends up in the next 10-15 years breaking every one of Hamilton's records than more power to him.

Hamilton on the other hand came from a working class background and dominated Karting and the junior levels despite all of the snide comments and the fact that it was assumed he didn't belong in the sport. He speaks to this on numerous occasions and was very fortunate to grab the attention of Ron Dennis to help him get into the junior divisions and he proves his talent even today.

Today many nickname Hamilton "Blessed" which seems odd to me considering his history compared to other F1 drivers.


That is one thing that I don't think gets enough attention, Lewis really had to fight to get where he is. It wasn't luck or money, it was hard work and simply being the best. Rather ironically, Schumacher was from a humble background. His parents ran a go-kart track, he earned it also, and everything I have ever seen or read about him as a person tells me he was a genuinely nice guy... and yet I still think he is a German cheat..go figure eh.

In regard to the pay drivers, I was really dismayed when we got Stroll - Who I think was the first of the modern generation, (although it's always happened in F1)but I think I was wrong, although he isn't particularly consistent, well he isn't consistent at all he has shown more than once he can hold his own against Vettel. So his father may have the money and own the fecking team, but he is also not without talent either. And in a way Perez owes his seat at Red Bull to him, so I guess it can work out. Mazipin seems utterly useless though. Tsunoda I'm not sure about and he is more of a sponsorship ploy rather than a pay driver too, he has a seat for next season so maybe he will come good then.
 
StarAC17
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:04 pm

Daysleeper wrote:
StarAC17 wrote:
I can't seem to think there is a racial undertone to a lot of these arguments. Not necessarily because Hamilton is black but that he is also a vocal BLM advocate and I would argue the most influential in that sphere of athletes globally. IMO Hamilton is a much better BLM advocate than LeBron James because I think he is a better communicator.

If you complain about Hamilton being in a pissy mood about bad races he has had this year. Monaco, Turkey, Austria, Mexico etc. but then give a pass to Verstappen for the exact same actions. He lost his s*it when Monaco qualifying was reg-flagged, has repeatedly called drivers idiots also. If you are impartial and lean towards defending Max and complaining about Lewis. Does skin colour have something to do with it? I am not accusing anyone here of this directly but this is an example of the systemic racism we see in society.

However if you rag on someone for an action but defend another for the exact same action then I would look at the deep reasons what makes that difference.


That's a tough one, as with sport comes passion, and I have found myself on multiple occasions using "double standards" to justify the actions of one team or driver but admonish others for doing the same. I think I posted this several pages ago, but I'll do so again. I HATED Schumacher with a passion. Ever since he was implicated in the launch control scandal whist at Benetton, I have called him the German cheat - and see I'm still doing it now. But what really cemented my hatred for him was his and Ferraris absolute dominance in the early 2000's. It made the sport boring to me, by lap 10 he would typically be 15 seconds clear up front and by the time a pit stop was due he had enough of a lead for a tyre change, fuel, coffee and a bagel and still rejoin the race in the lead. So I can understand people's frustration with just how good Lewis and Merc are and have been, perhaps if I were younger and Lewis German rather than British I'd hate him too.



It is very tough indeed as I agree there is a lot of emotion.

Daysleeper wrote:

In regard to the pay drivers, I was really dismayed when we got Stroll - Who I think was the first of the modern generation, (although it's always happened in F1)but I think I was wrong, although he isn't particularly consistent, well he isn't consistent at all he has shown more than once he can hold his own against Vettel. So his father may have the money and own the fecking team, but he is also not without talent either. And in a way Perez owes his seat at Red Bull to him, so I guess it can work out. Mazipin seems utterly useless though. Tsunoda I'm not sure about and he is more of a sponsorship ploy rather than a pay driver too, he has a seat for next season so maybe he will come good then.


Stroll is capable of getting into the points (he finished a silent 6th in Qatar) and I think has a few podiums so has some degree of talent. He should probably be in F1. Drive to Survive did an episode on him when he took Ocon's spot at Force India/Racing point and did another one on him discussing money vs talent. He seems to have both.

Latifi had a very improved year getting in the points but him and Mazepin need to prove themselves next year or they should be canned. I am very interested to see who does better at Williams next year Latifi or Albon.

I have no faith in Nikita Mazepin and I'm waiting for the Haas episode of Drive to Survive next year.
 
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:01 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
There is no big nuance to be explained.


There's nuance in every single F1 season. You can look at the results for the season on Wikipedia, but that doesn't tell you what happened in those races to produce those results.

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
So if he truly was the GOAT, surely he would have been in with a shout at the title constantly. The fact that he wasn't does say something, which many Hamilton fans often ignore.


He's won races in every season he's competed in F1, including some in very underwhelming cars. You seem to be setting some ludicrously high standards. Which F1 driver has ever been "in with a shout" for the title in every season he's competed?

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
During the seasons where Mercedes dominated, it does say something that a driver in a third best car is able to win races, especially considering that in 2019-2020 his teammates couldn't do so.


Sure, when you're the best of the rest you get to pick up the crumbs every now and then, like his very first win. Who were Verstappen's teammates in 2019 & 2020? An underperforming Gasly (who RB fired half way through the season) & Albon. And people claim Hamilton doesn't have competitive teammates (just three that have won four WDCs between them).

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Why did you think it took them so long to sign a contract for this year?


If it was all the car, they could have signed any driver to win, eh? But no, they still signed Hamilton and they're still paying him big bucks.

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
There's no doubt that Silverstone had a big impact on things. Not only did Verstappen lose points, they also lose an engine which could have been put to good use in their title hunt, the way Hamilton's doing with the engine change in Brazil. So dismiss it all you like, it doesn't change the fact that if Hamilton wins the championship he will wear Silverstone 2021 on his neck in a similar fashion to Michael Schumacher's Adelaide 1994 incident.


But presumably it will be fine if Verstappen wins it by the points he saved in Monza after taking Hamilton out? Only Hamilton's detractors will care about Silverstone at the end of the season.

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
What about Esteban Ocon's win in Hungary? It's not like the Alpine was the fastest car on the track.


There you go again, ignoring the nuances of that crazy race.
 
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scbriml
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:06 am

yonahleung wrote:
Lewis's Mercedes is obviously quicker than Max's Red Bull by a slight (but irreversible) margin in the last couple of races. As we head into the last two races which both seem to be power circuits, Lewis has got the championship in the bag already, barring a DNF or Baku.


Or a Monza!

yonahleung wrote:
Nico Rosberg and a research from a UK uni (forgot which one) have suggested that race results are approx. 80-90% down to the car and 10-20% down to the driver. Just tell Lewis to drive the Alpine or AlphaTauri of this season and have a go at the WDC. Not a chance.


Of course. None of the F1 greats would be fighting for the WDC in a HAAS. Not a single one of them. Verstappen wasn't fighting for a WDC until he got a car that's been arguably the best for he better part of the season.
 
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:08 am

Daysleeper wrote:
You can’t have both, either driver skill matters and it’s the reason they are able to win races or it doesn’t and whoever happens to have the faster car is always going to win. So which is it?

When Max wins its skill and when Lewis wins its because he has a better car?


In a nutshell. :lol:
 
StarAC17
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:12 am

Dutchy wrote:
scbriml wrote:
It's clearly a balance between performance and reliability. With so few races left, having taken a new engine for Hamilton in Brazil, they've obviously worked out they can now "turn it up to 11".


Clearly, although I was quite - pleasantly - surprised that Max Verstappen did the fasted lap in Qatar. Gives some hope for him. But it will be a close championship, which is always good for the sport.


Lewis didn't have the free stop to get it back, Max did. Lewis likely had the pace with the lighter car but not enough of a lead to go for it. Had Max had the same lead they would have done the same.

Had Bottas not retired due to a puncture. He would have boxed for it in the last few laps and possibly would have played the game of chicken with Checo as to who gets it. Fastest lap points might actually mean something this year and very well could decide either championship.
 
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:17 am

petertenthije wrote:
Daysleeper wrote:
I am interested as to where other people think Lewis sudden turn of speed has come from? I suspect Merc have turned the engine up, but if thats the case will it last another 2 races without turning it back down again?

My guess is that the party mode that was used earlier in qualifications, and subsequently banned, has been perfected enough to be used in races. You can’t use a different setting for qualifications only, but it is fair game to use party mode for both qualifications and races.

Mercedes probably thinks / bets that party mode will thrash the engine, but that the engine will hold just long enough for the few remaining races. Besides, unlike Red Bull, Mercedes has a spare engine, because Red Bull had one engine thrashed at Silverstone. Toto confirmed they used another engine in Qatar then they did in Brazil, and that the “Brazil engine” will be used again in Saudi Arabia. The longer stretches at the Saudi track should favour the “Brazil engine”.

Dutch source for Toto’s engine statement:
https://racingnews365.nl/wolff-komt-met ... r-hamilton


Redbull could take a new engine if they were willing to take the grid penalty to do so, they only took one extra unit in Russia. They probably should have taken one in Mexico or Brazil to have that spare and run theirs full blast also. They might in Jeddah depending on their pace before qualifying and have it go full out in Abu Dhabi. I don't think the Honda unit has the issues of the Merc one so RedBull might not have to.
 
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:12 am

Daysleeper wrote:
Huh?? In 2007 his rookie season, he lost the championship to Kimi by 1 point. Let me make that clear:In his debut season, the first time he had ever raced an F1 car he came second to Kimi a vastly more experienced driver in a Ferrari, by one point!! He also took a whole load of records for most wins, most points etc – And you think that this kind of performance validates your argument that it’s all down to the car? And in 2008 he WON the championship. I guess that’s why you specifically said “after 2008” eh?


Lets not forget that he was driving a McLaren which could have won the Constructor's Championship that season had it not been for Spygate - meaning that the car was fast. Jacques Villeneuve was also in the title hunt when he drove with the all conquering Williams in his debut season (hell he could have even won his debut race, a feat that only one driver managed to do way back in 1961!), and yet he's hardly known as the GOAT.

To be honest, to me, Kimi had the more impressive debut - with only 23 single seater races under his belt, he got onto the grid at Melbourne 2001 and managed to score a point in a Sauber (back when only the top 6 scored points). Only rotten luck stopped him from winning more than one championship. But does anybody ever mention Kimi's name in the pantheon of GOATs? No.

Daysleeper wrote:
Yes, he has had the odd bad season, but what driver hasn’t? Also when has a driver of his capability not been in one of the best cars on the grid? You could equally argue that Schumacher only managed his titles because of the domination of the Ferrari in the early 2000s and same with Vettal and the Red Bull. The good racers get the good cars.


Schumacher was in the title hunt in 1997/1998 when the Ferrari was not as fast as the McLaren. Granted, he soiled his reputation with his lunge on Villeneuve in 1997, but in 1998 sheer bad luck put paid to his chances (stalled on the grid in Suzuka, followed by a puncture).

Also, Schumacher only dominated in 2001, 2002 & 2004. The 2000 & 2003 season were much closer, especially 2003 where only sheer bad luck lost Kimi Raikkonen his first title. Hamilton's championship challenge during Mercedes' V6 domination era was never that close, with the exception of Nico Rosberg's win in 2016.

Daysleeper wrote:
So you expect a 100% score card throughout his entire F1 career? I also not a big fan either, but I detest this disingenuous argument that he only wins because he has the faster car.


No, but I put forth this argument only because of the GOAT argument. To be honest, I've not seen Hamilton give a GOAT-worthy performance yet, though I'm happy to be corrected on this.

Daysleeper wrote:
Hang on here you cannot have it both ways. You’re saying that Max is an incredible driver because he is in the third best car and manages to win races. But you are also saying that driver skill has nothing to do with Lewis’s success, as it was all the car.

You can’t have both, either driver skill matters and it’s the reason they are able to win races or it doesn’t and whoever happens to have the faster car is always going to win. So which is it?

When Max wins its skill and when Lewis wins its because he has a better car?


You're conflating two things. I'm talking about Lewis's championship fights, not merely race wins. And again, my position is in reference to the GOAT argument that Hamilton supporters often bandy about. I wouldn't have made the same argument if nobody had proclaimed him to be the GOAT.

scbriml wrote:
He's won races in every season he's competed in F1, including some in very underwhelming cars. You seem to be setting some ludicrously high standards. Which F1 driver has ever been "in with a shout" for the title in every season he's competed?


Read what I have written previously. Did I say every season?

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
So if he truly was the GOAT, surely he would have been in with a shout at the title constantly. The fact that he wasn't does say something, which many Hamilton fans often ignore.


Also, of course the standards are high. You lot are saying he's the GOAT. You can't be a GOAT unless you meet an exacting standard.

scbriml wrote:
But presumably it will be fine if Verstappen wins it by the points he saved in Monza after taking Hamilton out? Only Hamilton's detractors will care about Silverstone at the end of the season.


Neither driver scored points in Monza, and the lead was only 5 points in favour of Max. Whereas Lewis took a chunk out of Max's lead in Silverstone, before taking the lead in Hungary after Bottas decided to play bumper cars with the two Red Bulls. You want nuance, there you go.
 
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:42 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
You want nuance, there you go.


See, you do know all about nuance. You just chose to ignore it when it doesn't support your point.
 
astuteman
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Thu Nov 25, 2021 6:16 pm

petertenthije wrote:
Daysleeper wrote:
I am interested as to where other people think Lewis sudden turn of speed has come from? I suspect Merc have turned the engine up, but if thats the case will it last another 2 races without turning it back down again?

My guess is that the party mode that was used earlier in qualifications, and subsequently banned, has been perfected enough to be used in races. You can’t use a different setting for qualifications only, but it is fair game to use party mode for both qualifications and races.


I don't think anyone doubts that at this stage of the season a new engine brings a performance gain.
Probably worth pointing out that at Interlagos the speed trap data shows that about 25% of cars were faster than Hamilton's Mercedes, but that Verstappen was consistently slower.
Verstappen is on record as saying they turned the wing up in Interlagos to protect the tyres in the infield section.

It's also worth noting that Red Bull think that they lost the Qatar GP at turn 6, NOT on the straights

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/more-s ... uxbndlbing

After the Qatar GP Wolff was also on record in the post race interview as saying that the car was now good in the corners as well as on the straight.

All of this says to me that despite all the "illegal wing" and "more powerful engine" nonsense, what has actually happened is that over the season, Mercedes have finally worked through the aerodynamic issues that they suffered from in long corners in earlier races their low rake configuration.

So I'm going to put it out there that what has changed is actually the Mercedes aerodynamics in fast corners, NOT straight line speed.
New engines notably excepted.

Rgds
 
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:39 pm

scbriml wrote:
See, you do know all about nuance. You just chose to ignore it when it doesn't support your point.


Like I said:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
There is no big nuance to be explained. Red Bull did not dominate the seasons like Mercedes did from the start of the V6 era. So if he truly was the GOAT, surely he would have been in with a shout at the title constantly. The fact that he wasn't does say something, which many Hamilton fans often ignore.


So no, there's no inconsistencies here.
 
Virtual737
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Fri Nov 26, 2021 8:00 am

F1 is not a "single make" series, so to be the best you need to put yourself in the position to be in one of the best cars. The best manufacturers will also want the best drivers and have the draw and finances to make it happen.

Anyone who says that an F1 driver isn't a great because they were always in a top car is kind of missing what the definition of a great F1 driver is.

As for Lewis, he holds or has equaled pretty much every record there is to target. it is also difficult or pointless to compare drivers of different eras. To suggest that a 7 time (and current) world champion is not in with a shout of being considered G.O.A.T. is probably exposing some prejudice of one kind or another. Most professional drivers seem to think he's pretty good too.
 
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Revelation
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:33 pm

Daysleeper wrote:
Revelation wrote:
yonahleung wrote:
Nico Rosberg and a research from a UK uni (forgot which one) have suggested that race results are approx. 80-90% down to the car and 10-20% down to the driver. Just tell Lewis to drive the Alpine or AlphaTauri of this season and have a go at the WDC. Not a chance.

That's an interesting outcome. Feels like the old 80/20 rule. Still leaves enough wiggle room to make the various arguments rage on!


I try to stay clear of such arguments, but this one really bugs me..

You remind me of kids at school who at the slightest sign of a disagreement, all immediately start shouting "Fight "Fight" "Fight" :rotfl:

It seems to me this car vs driver thing goes back to the earliest days of the sport. It doesn't fall to the level of "slight disagreement", IMO. The controversy it sets up seems to be a key part of fan engagement. It probably goes back to earlier times, when people asked if it was the horse or the jockey. I found the idea of assigning a weighting factor to it to be interesting.

The thing that annoys me is people who need to exaggerate to make their point. Not saying I'm innocent of it, but I do try to avoid it.
 
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Fri Nov 26, 2021 2:07 pm

Revelation wrote:
It probably goes back to earlier times, when people asked if it was the horse or the jockey.


Horse racing provides a neat parallel with motorsport in that, typically, the best jockeys get to ride the best horses. It's a truism that carries across to motorsport. The best drivers tend to end up in the best cars. If they don't, they need to ask themselves why not*.


* Toto Wolff.
 
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sat Nov 27, 2021 3:36 am

Virtual737 wrote:
Anyone who says that an F1 driver isn't a great because they were always in a top car is kind of missing what the definition of a great F1 driver is.


There's a difference between great and greatest. That's the gist of the argument about Lewis which many don't latch on to.

Virtual737 wrote:
As for Lewis, he holds or has equaled pretty much every record there is to target. it is also difficult or pointless to compare drivers of different eras. To suggest that a 7 time (and current) world champion is not in with a shout of being considered G.O.A.T. is probably exposing some prejudice of one kind or another. Most professional drivers seem to think he's pretty good too.


And yet, that's what G.O.A.T is all about - Greatest of All Time. On one hand, you say it's difficult/pointless to compare drivers of different eras, but on the other hand, you say that Lewis should be considered as the G.O.A.T, simply because he holds/equaled records set. Don't you see the dichotomy?

I'm not saying that Lewis isn't great. What I'm arguing is that he may not be the greatest of all the greats.
 
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sat Nov 27, 2021 6:17 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
There's a...


I shall rephrase. Personally I believe it is almost pointless discussing G.O.A.T. in F1 (but will do so anyway) as the sport is highly technical and evolves at breakneck speed. F1 of today is so vastly different from F1 of even 20 years ago and the skills required to be near the top have evolved too. However, if people insist on discussing it then I believe that to discount a driver from the "race" because they have, more often than not, been in the best car is kind of missing the point of F1. Let's also not forget that Lewis made the switch from McLaren to Merc at a time when many thought to do so was questionable at best.

Then there are those that only ever mention the Fangios and the Clarkes of F1 as being the best ever, often citing the dangerous conditions they raced under as a reason for holding them in higher regard. Yet they had no choice but to race in those conditions. Drivers of today should not be docked G.O.A.T. points purely because they are of a different era, but conversely we can't just look at race wins / poles / points because there are far more races with totally different points systems today.

An often stated point is that you can only really compare an F1 driver with their teammate of the time. Here Lewis scores exceptionally well, beating former multiple F1 champion Alonso in his rookie year, former F1 champion Button the next year and almost always having a competitive driver with him in the team (I'm now discounting Bottas from that). In 2011 Jenson outscored Lewis. In 2016 Rosberg outscored Lewis to become champion and promptly quit stating that fighting Lewis was a battle he couldn't repeat (imagine an F1 champion saying that...). That's just twice in 15 seasons. Compare that to Max, a future great and he has already been beaten twice in his first 3 years, by Danny Ric, who is a hugely popular driver but certainly not on anyone's "greatest" list.

You could say that Lewis should be deducted G.O.A.T. points because he's a media groomed whiner. Here I cannot disagree with that description. Fortunately for Lewis, F1 is a team sport and Spice Boy Horner along with Herr Helmut manage to outwhine my old Capri gearbox, in which case Max, for example, would do well to score any points at all in his future quest for G.O.A.T.

So, I would love to see the realistic criteria list for "greatest" where Lewis scores so badly.
 
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:27 pm

With a heavy heart, I share the news that Sir Frank Williams has died, he was 79.

I'm actually pretty upset about this as Williams was always one of my favourite teams once I got into F1. From 1980 over a period of 17 seasons, Williams was one of the very top F1 teams winning nine constructor's titles and seven driver's titles. It's a real shame that the team he founded is now struggling towards the back of the field.

Sir Frank Williams
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Wil ... ormula_One)

Williams Grand Prix Engineering
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Williams_ ... ngineering

F1 has lost one of its legends. Forza Sir Frank Williams. :checkeredflag:
 
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Nov 28, 2021 11:39 pm

scbriml wrote:
With a heavy heart, I share the news that Sir Frank Williams has died, he was 79.

I'm actually pretty upset about this as Williams was always one of my favourite teams once I got into F1. From 1980 over a period of 17 seasons, Williams was one of the very top F1 teams winning nine constructor's titles and seven driver's titles. It's a real shame that the team he founded is now struggling towards the back of the field.

Sir Frank Williams
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Wil ... ormula_One)

Williams Grand Prix Engineering
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Williams_ ... ngineering

F1 has lost one of its legends. Forza Sir Frank Williams. :checkeredflag:


Indeed. The fact that he managed to lead the team to success despite being paralyzed from his accident in 1986 remains inspirational. Thankfully, he managed to see his team back to point scoring ways before he passed away.

Rest in peace.
 
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Nov 29, 2021 1:55 am

Revelation wrote:
Daysleeper wrote:
Revelation wrote:
That's an interesting outcome. Feels like the old 80/20 rule. Still leaves enough wiggle room to make the various arguments rage on!


I try to stay clear of such arguments, but this one really bugs me..

You remind me of kids at school who at the slightest sign of a disagreement, all immediately start shouting "Fight "Fight" "Fight" :rotfl:

It seems to me this car vs driver thing goes back to the earliest days of the sport. It doesn't fall to the level of "slight disagreement", IMO. The controversy it sets up seems to be a key part of fan engagement. It probably goes back to earlier times, when people asked if it was the horse or the jockey. I found the idea of assigning a weighting factor to it to be interesting.

The thing that annoys me is people who need to exaggerate to make their point. Not saying I'm innocent of it, but I do try to avoid it.


It's always been about the best driver in the fastest and most reliable car. Michael Schumacher was one (among a few others like Vic Elford for instance) who could make a car that wasn't always the best do better than it should, and he also had a way (like many of the other top drivers) of going fast but not hurting the car.

Derek Bell is another of those who knew how to go fast but keep a car going for 24 hours.

Sad to hear that Sir Frank passed away. I didn't really support his team but I respected him a lot.

If you get into F1, you obviously have some talent, it's fine to bring money in, but you've got to be able to drive the car. Look at Jyrki Juhani Järvilehto, also talented, did a stellar drive in the rain with a McLaren F1 GTR in 1995 to win Le Mans outright. That F1 GTR was no easy thing to drive in the rain with that huge engine in back.

He was also a former F1 driver. As for the current lot, I haven't got a clue who any of them are, aside from maybe Verstappen, Hamiltion or our own Ricciardo.
 
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Nov 29, 2021 4:20 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
scbriml wrote:
With a heavy heart, I share the news that Sir Frank Williams has died, he was 79.

I'm actually pretty upset about this as Williams was always one of my favourite teams once I got into F1. From 1980 over a period of 17 seasons, Williams was one of the very top F1 teams winning nine constructor's titles and seven driver's titles. It's a real shame that the team he founded is now struggling towards the back of the field.

Sir Frank Williams
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Wil ... ormula_One)

Williams Grand Prix Engineering
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Williams_ ... ngineering

F1 has lost one of its legends. Forza Sir Frank Williams. :checkeredflag:


Indeed. The fact that he managed to lead the team to success despite being paralyzed from his accident in 1986 remains inspirational. Thankfully, he managed to see his team back to point scoring ways before he passed away.

Rest in peace.


The first Australian world champion since Brabham was Jones in a WIlliams of course. Although Jones' career then took a different turn, it sure put WIlliams and F1 in the forefront of Aussies of a certain generation.

RIP Sir Frank.
 
marcelh
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Nov 29, 2021 3:44 pm

Virtual737 wrote:
An often stated point is that you can only really compare an F1 driver with their teammate of the time. Here Lewis scores exceptionally well, beating former multiple F1 champion Alonso in his rookie year, former F1 champion Button the next year and almost always having a competitive driver with him in the team (I'm now discounting Bottas from that). In 2011 Jenson outscored Lewis. In 2016 Rosberg outscored Lewis to become champion and promptly quit stating that fighting Lewis was a battle he couldn't repeat (imagine an F1 champion saying that...). That's just twice in 15 seasons. Compare that to Max, a future great and he has already been beaten twice in his first 3 years, by Danny Ric, who is a hugely popular driver but certainly not on anyone's "greatest" list.


A useless comparison. VER was much younger and less experienced when he entered the F1, compared to HAM. VER was just 17.5 year old when he entered his first F1 race, compared to HAM just over 22 years.
 
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scbriml
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Nov 29, 2021 6:43 pm

marcelh wrote:
A useless comparison. VER was much younger and less experienced when he entered the F1, compared to HAM. VER was just 17.5 year old when he entered his first F1 race, compared to HAM just over 22 years.


I'm not sure it's a comparison that can be dismissed as "useless" quite so easily. Either Verstappen was good enough to be driving in F1 at 17, or he wasn't. If he was good enough, then you can't dismiss the results from his early seasons because he 'lacked experience'.

Sachin Tendulkar started playing Test cricket for India at the age of 16. Nobody dismisses his early career because he 'lacked experience'.
 
marcelh
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:29 am

scbriml wrote:
marcelh wrote:
A useless comparison. VER was much younger and less experienced when he entered the F1, compared to HAM. VER was just 17.5 year old when he entered his first F1 race, compared to HAM just over 22 years.


I'm not sure it's a comparison that can be dismissed as "useless" quite so easily. Either Verstappen was good enough to be driving in F1 at 17, or he wasn't. If he was good enough, then you can't dismiss the results from his early seasons because he 'lacked experience'.


I don’t dismiss it, you are just ignoring the fact that HAM had a much more traditional path to F1 than VER. After karting, VER had just 1 year of experience in Formula 3 and Florida Winter series (47 races) before entering F1. After karting, HAM competed in formula Renault, Formula 3 and Formula 2 for 5 years, before entering F1. A HAM was a much more experienced driver when entering F1 than VER. VER had to catch up experience (“maturing”) when entering F1. He was a diamond in the rough while HAM was already much more polished.’
 
Virtual737
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:00 pm

marcelh wrote:

I don’t dismiss it, you are just ignoring the fact that HAM had a much more traditional path to F1 than VER. ’


Ah ok. For a moment I thought you might be instantly dismissing it because it doesn't support your view. Glad we've got that sorted.
 
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scbriml
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:34 pm

marcelh wrote:
I don’t dismiss it


OK, I do appreciate that English may not be your first language, but to say something like "X is useless" will be interpreted by the vast majority of native English speakers as dismissing X.

I'm not ignoring their different career paths (indeed, I had originally included something to that effect in my reply before I posted it). But you have to accept that if Verstappen was good enough to drive in F1 at 17, his early career results can't be ignored. That would be like wanting to exclude Schumacher's second spell of F1 from his stats because all it did was dilute his record from his first spell.
 
PHLspecial
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sat Dec 04, 2021 6:14 pm

What a wild finish in the Saudi Arabia qualifying session, once Q3 was turned on. Was at the edge of the seat the entire time. What a season!
 
StarAC17
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sat Dec 04, 2021 7:04 pm

PHLspecial wrote:
What a wild finish in the Saudi Arabia qualifying session, once Q3 was turned on. Was at the edge of the seat the entire time. What a season!


I am at work today and saw the last 5 minutes of Q3 on my lunch break and yes that was awesome.

I am a Lewis and Merc fan but that sucks for Max hitting the wall on what was an amazing lap. I want to see pure racing this weekend and next, not Christian (add in old man Marko) and Toto complaining to each other and the FIA.
Lets see what happens with a 1-2 lockout for Mercedes but tomorrow's race looks like it will be a banger.
 
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scbriml
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Dec 05, 2021 1:00 am

A sensational qualifying session. Hamilton on pole, but Verstappen missing out on the qualifying lap of the season by hitting the wall on the very last corner.
Image
Source: https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/formula- ... i-25617796

It will be a nervous night for Red Bull as they check for any damage to Verstappen's gearbox or engine. After seeing Leclerc fail to start the Monaco GP because his gearbox was broken, but Ferrari didn't see it, Red Bull have said they won't hesitate to take a new one if there's any doubt. That would be a five place grid drop for Verstappen if they do have to take one.

Qualifying result:
Image
Source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/latest

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