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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:25 am

Reinhardt wrote:
On two occasions (think at the start and one the restarts) at the first corner Hamilton was ahead. Max deliberately breaked late, too late. He was never going to make the corner and over-took Hamliton whilst off the track. He does this all the time. He says I'm coming through, get out of the way or I'm going to hit you. Then wonders why he gets penalised. The second time, it bunched the field up so much that it directly led to the accident when Perez went out and Mazepin. So his team lost out on vital WC points as well. It was all avoidable. He could have slotted in behind Hamilton.


Why? If he has the chance to take the lead, why the hell should he yield?

Reinhardt wrote:
The give the place back thing was a farce. Max was told to give the place back but nobody told Mercedes that was what he was doing until after they hit. Lewis only got told after they hit each other. Yes RB say we tried to let him through and he hit us. But 1/ The way Max tried to give it back was stupid - he wasn't clearly to the side he sat in the middle of the track just slowing down but he was doing it there and then to get DRS straight back again - stupid. 2/ From Lewis' point of view Max in this race had already twice literally driven him off at the first corner - he was clearly playing it safe. Maybe he thought Max saw something up ahead that mean't everyone was slowing..either an accident or something else.


The FIA did try to inform Mercedes, but Mercedes was busy yakking about some inconsequential complaints, they couldn't get through. Secondly, Max gave Lewis enough space to overtake safely. The only reason why Lewis didn't overtake was because he wants the DRS. So why is it that only Max is stupid for doing this while the 7-time world champion isn't?

And thirdly, as a world champion driver Lewis would have definitely known that had there been any obstructions or accidents at the front, yellow flags & yellow lights would have been flashing. So any argument saying he avoided overtaking because he assumed there was something ahead that requires them to slow down is bunk.

Reinhardt wrote:
Max needs a smack in the head - he's not a kid, he's fighting for the world championship.


Give one to Hamilton too. After 6 seasons of cakewalking the championship, Lewis is rattled having to fight so closely that he is acting like it's 2016 all over again.
 
flipdewaf
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:27 am

Dutchy wrote:
think it is a worse offence than knocking your opponent out of the race.


The penalties are for the actions and not the consequences of the actions. The action in Silverstone was to touch wheels.

Ver was told to let Ham past. There is nothing about how or where or when ham chooses to do so. Deliberately braking testing has a part in the rules, ver is deemed to have broken that.

Ver likes to test the limits of the vagueness of the rules, but doesn’t like it when it’s against him.

Fred


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flipdewaf
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:31 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:

The FIA did try to inform Mercedes, but Mercedes was busy yakking about some inconsequential complaints, they couldn't get through. Secondly, Max gave Lewis enough space to overtake safely. The only reason why Lewis didn't overtake was because he wants the DRS. So why is it that only Max is stupid for doing this while the 7-time world champion isn't?


And where in the rules does it say he must overtake at the point that max wants him to? Just because max slowed to let Lewis through doesn’t mean that Lewis has to go through there.

Fred


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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:31 am

flipdewaf wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
think it is a worse offence than knocking your opponent out of the race.


The penalties are for the actions and not the consequences of the actions. The action in Silverstone was to touch wheels.

Ver was told to let Ham past. There is nothing about how or where or when ham chooses to do so. Deliberately braking testing has a part in the rules, ver is deemed to have broken that.

Ver likes to test the limits of the vagueness of the rules, but doesn’t like it when it’s against him.

Fred


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Honestly, if one considers what Verstappen did to Hamilton is brake testing, then why is it that back in 2017 at Baku, Hamilton wasn't considered to have braketested Vettel as they go about the track during the safety car period. Clearly he went slower than Vettel for some inexplicable reason and caused Vettel to run into the back of him.

flipdewaf wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:

The FIA did try to inform Mercedes, but Mercedes was busy yakking about some inconsequential complaints, they couldn't get through. Secondly, Max gave Lewis enough space to overtake safely. The only reason why Lewis didn't overtake was because he wants the DRS. So why is it that only Max is stupid for doing this while the 7-time world champion isn't?


And where in the rules does it say he must overtake at the point that max wants him to? Just because max slowed to let Lewis through doesn’t mean that Lewis has to go through there.

Fred


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You can't play the blame game on Verstappen and yet at the same time let Hamilton get off scot free by using this reasoning.
 
Virtual737
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:34 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Why? If he has the chance to take the lead, why the hell should he yield?


...because in the scenarios given by the poster you're replying to he wouldn't have made the corner.

Watch the beginning of most kart races where a newbie is placed in 2nd on the grid. If the pole sitter tries to take the racing line into the first corner they get t-boned. Start of many F1 races for that matter. Max time and time again late brakes up the inside to the point that he cannot make the corner and the driver on the racing line has to yield or get taken out.
 
T4thH
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:40 am

Dutchy wrote:
T4thH wrote:
It is silly, that Verstappen got only a 10 sec penalty; this is the biggest joke et all.


So you think it would be fair to punish him more, more than 3 times getting ordered to let your opponent fly by, getting 5 seconds penalty. And moreover, you think it is a worse offence than knocking your opponent out of the race. My guess is that you are letting your fanboy do the talking instead of being objective.


Please note, I am not any more interested in F1 (there was a time, 10 to 30 years ago, it was different). I do not watch any more the Formula 1, this has ended, when it moved to PayTV. And I do not care any more, if Hamilton or Verstappen will win the championship as in the meanwhile it is a commercial show and the races are performed there, who are the leaders of the human rights abuse list but pay well. If, then I am a little bit interested in the career of Mick Schumacher. Still I have seen hundreds of races of Formula 1, DTM and other race series, so I have seen enough (and also all of the heartbreaking death accidents of the last decades live).
Yesterday, this was one of the few races this year, shown on free TV (RTL, than they moved to N-TV) and it was the first race, I have watched. As said, I am not any more real interested.
I know, what "testing the breaks" is and thought the same as "Ralf Schumacher" has instant said. This was "testing the breaks" and the also the data clearly show, that he has done it. Also the incident before was already beyond borderline, when he tried to use Hamilton as "Break" and has slipped in the site. Verstappen was to fast.
Last edited by T4thH on Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:41 am

Virtual737 wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Why? If he has the chance to take the lead, why the hell should he yield?


...because in the scenarios given by the poster you're replying to he wouldn't have made the corner.

Watch the beginning of most kart races where a newbie is placed in 2nd on the grid. If the pole sitter tries to take the racing line into the first corner they get t-boned. Start of many F1 races for that matter. Max time and time again late brakes up the inside to the point that he cannot make the corner and the driver on the racing line has to yield or get taken out.


How is it any different from Lewis trying to overtake Max on the first lap at Monza 2021? So why is it that only Max is being criticized for doing the same thing that Lewis did?
 
flipdewaf
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:45 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
think it is a worse offence than knocking your opponent out of the race.


The penalties are for the actions and not the consequences of the actions. The action in Silverstone was to touch wheels.

Ver was told to let Ham past. There is nothing about how or where or when ham chooses to do so. Deliberately braking testing has a part in the rules, ver is deemed to have broken that.

Ver likes to test the limits of the vagueness of the rules, but doesn’t like it when it’s against him.

Fred


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Honestly, if one considers what Verstappen did to Hamilton is brake testing, then why is it that back in 2017 at Baku, Hamilton wasn't considered to have braketested Vettel as they go about the track during the safety car period. Clearly he went slower than Vettel for some inexplicable reason and caused Vettel to run into the back of him.

flipdewaf wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:

The FIA did try to inform Mercedes, but Mercedes was busy yakking about some inconsequential complaints, they couldn't get through. Secondly, Max gave Lewis enough space to overtake safely. The only reason why Lewis didn't overtake was because he wants the DRS. So why is it that only Max is stupid for doing this while the 7-time world champion isn't?


And where in the rules does it say he must overtake at the point that max wants him to? Just because max slowed to let Lewis through doesn’t mean that Lewis has to go through there.

Fred


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You can't play the blame game on Verstappen and yet at the same time let Hamilton get off scot free by using this reasoning.

Absolutely, they are both allowed to slow down where every they like. Max can slow down to let Hamilton past to take advantage and Hamilton can also slow down and not take the pass at that point, nothing wrong there. They do of course run the risk of just letting others go past but that’s their choice.

Max was reprimanded for something else, brake checking.

With regards to the accusation of break checking in Baku by Hamilton on Vettel, it was well documented that Hamilton didn’t actually touch the brakes then but simply didn’t accelerate as Vettel expected him to as was his right whilst following the safety car.

Fred


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petertenthije
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:46 am

flipdewaf wrote:
Ver was told to let Ham past. There is nothing about how or where or when ham chooses to do so.
I am willing to bet that before the next season starts the rules will be updated.
For instance that giving back a position has to be done within X seconds / metres of passing the next DRS line.

Also, maybe a radio channel reserved for FIA communication only? Apparantly HAM was not informed in time that MAX had to yield, because the Mercedes radio was in use by engineers? Similar to when someone steps on the ATC frequency.

flipdewaf wrote:
Ver likes to test the limits of the vagueness of the rules, but doesn’t like it when it’s against him.
To be fair though, everyone is testing the limits.
For instance keeping too much distance while setting up for the second restart (HAM). Or slowing down too much behind the safety car (BOT) to make a bigger gap between HAM and VER.
And noone likes it when the rules work against them. Remember that tantrum HAM gave when VER changed tires during the red flag?
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:51 am

flipdewaf wrote:
Max was reprimanded for something else, brake checking.

With regards to the accusation of break checking in Baku by Hamilton on Vettel, it was well documented that Hamilton didn’t actually touch the brakes then but simply didn’t accelerate as Vettel expected him to as was his right whilst following the safety car.

Fred


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Which is absolute nonsense. He failed to maintain speed, and caused another driver to crash into him, damaging the opponent's car in the process. That's a brake check even if he didn't touch the brakes.

I suppose it's karma that in that instance, he lost places after having to have his headrest fitted properly, allowing Vettel to leapfrog him, despite the penalty dished out to the Ferrari.
 
Reinhardt
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:15 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Reinhardt wrote:
On two occasions (think at the start and one the restarts) at the first corner Hamilton was ahead. Max deliberately breaked late, too late. He was never going to make the corner and over-took Hamliton whilst off the track. He does this all the time. He says I'm coming through, get out of the way or I'm going to hit you. Then wonders why he gets penalised. The second time, it bunched the field up so much that it directly led to the accident when Perez went out and Mazepin. So his team lost out on vital WC points as well. It was all avoidable. He could have slotted in behind Hamilton.


Why? If he has the chance to take the lead, why the hell should he yield?


Because those is the rules! You're not allowed to overtake outside of track limits. He did. Twice.
And what's worse, he was never going to make the corner without running in to someone, unless that other person took avoiding action. Again, that is not racing, that is throwing the car in and expecting someone else to move out of the way. That is not a legal overtake.

Hamilton had the inside line to the first corner. He was under control under breaking and was ahead, and making the corner. Verstappen had no chance to make the next corner because he braked too late at the first. His fault.



TheFlyingDisk wrote:
.

The FIA did try to inform Mercedes, but Mercedes was busy yakking about some inconsequential complaints, they couldn't get through.


The Radio I heard between Mercedes and the FIA was very clearly "you didn't give us any notice Max was going to try and let Lewis through". This was the race directors fault. There was plenty of time to organise it properly. It was rushed.

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
.
Secondly, Max gave Lewis enough space to overtake safely. The only reason why Lewis didn't overtake was because he wants the DRS. So why is it that only Max is stupid for doing this while the 7-time world champion isn't? .


I'm mainly blaming the race director here and the rules. The whole point of letting another car past is because the first car did something wrong. Just to allow them to go straight back past with DRS is not a punishment for wrong doing. So it should have been clear where and when it took place.

From what I saw Max was initially slowing down to the right, he then moved more to the centre. he then significantly slowed in the centre (just to the right of the racing line but in the centre of the track). Yes there was space to the left, but Lewis had no idea why Max was slowing, and as I said if somebody ahead had already in the race twice virtually taken you out on the first corner you're going to be rather suspect about what the hell he was doing.


Reinhardt wrote:
Max needs a smack in the head - he's not a kid, he's fighting for the world championship.

Give one to Hamilton too. After 6 seasons of cakewalking the championship, Lewis is rattled having to fight so closely that he is acting like it's 2016 all over again.


Really, the only rattled driver I saw yesterday was Verstappen. He always acts like a child when something doesn't go wrong. It's always the car's fault. Always the other persons. He never ever accepts he isn't fast enough or he made a mistake. He has always pushed what is acceptable on overtakes and yesterday what he did was not acceptable. Nor was Brazil despite the fact he got away with it.
 
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scbriml
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:46 pm

marcelh wrote:
legoguy wrote:
10 second penalty to Max for break testing Hamilton. Retains P2 position. FIA are doing a great job of engineering a showdown for next week.

VER slowed down, but where have you read he was breaktesting HAM?


From the stewards ruling - "In deciding to penalise the driver of Car 33, the key point for the Stewards was that the driver of Car 33 then braked suddenly (69 bar) and significantly, resulting in 2.4g deceleration.
...
However, the sudden braking by the driver of Car 33 was determined by the Stewards to be erratic and hence the predominant cause of the collision and hence the
standard penalty of 10 seconds for this type of incident, is imposed.
"
https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... lision.pdf

In layman's English, Verstappen brake tested Hamilton like one of those insurance scammers who disconnect their brake lights.
 
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scbriml
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:51 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Or alternatively, don't allow changing tires under a red flag (that has changed the results of several races before, so I think it's a needed change anyway).


Why? Everyone's open to make changes to their cars in a red flag situation. The only reason why red flags changed the result of several races before is because some teams did not use the opportunity to make changes. Why blame the rules and other teams for taking advantage?


Yep, the rules are what they are and they're the same for everyone. Over such a long season these things tend to even themselves out. Hamilton benefitted from red flags before, so he can't really complain.
 
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scbriml
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:55 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Looking at this video, I really don't see where is the erratic braking that the FIA alleges Max did. He braked only once, and Hamilton was already braking prior to Max braking.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmGZWiPa2R8


Do you think the stewards would have penalised Max without looking at telemetry? They have also stated 2.4G braking while already slowed.


Surely this sudden braking would also show itself on the F1TV feed, no? But I certainly didn't see it there. In any case, as I've stated many times before - the stewards can be wrong.


They can be, but the telemetry can't be, can it? They even said how much force he used to apply the brakes.
 
Boeing74741R
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:56 pm

Looking beyond the Hamilton vs Verstappen debate for one minute, is it just me who thinks this race weekend wasn't the stewards (or Michael Masi's) finest hour? The negotiations on the grid over where Verstappen would restart, what was that all about?

Abu Dhabi on Sunday will be interesting nonetheless.

Aesma wrote:
Back in the day you could take a new car during a red flag !


If I remember rightly, that was when spare cars were still a thing and could only occur if the red flag was brought out during the first 2 laps as the race would start from scratch. I remember Schumacher doing this in Germany 2001 after Burti slammed into the back of him at the start when his gearbox was having issues. It helped in his case that the spare car was always set up for him by default.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:57 pm

Reinhardt wrote:
Because those is the rules! You're not allowed to overtake outside of track limits. He did. Twice.
And what's worse, he was never going to make the corner without running in to someone, unless that other person took avoiding action. Again, that is not racing, that is throwing the car in and expecting someone else to move out of the way. That is not a legal overtake.

Hamilton had the inside line to the first corner. He was under control under breaking and was ahead, and making the corner. Verstappen had no chance to make the next corner because he braked too late at the first. His fault.


Funny how when in other instances, when Max has the inside line and don't yield, Hamilton fanboys cry about how unfair it is that Hamilton wasn't given any space. But when Lewis does the same thing on Max, it's Max's fault, that he should have yielded.


Reinhardt wrote:
Really, the only rattled driver I saw yesterday was Verstappen. He always acts like a child when something doesn't go wrong. It's always the car's fault. Always the other persons. He never ever accepts he isn't fast enough or he made a mistake. He has always pushed what is acceptable on overtakes and yesterday what he did was not acceptable. Nor was Brazil despite the fact he got away with it.


One can say the same about Lewis. And yet, you proclaim that it's Max that is rattled. Really funny.

Boeing74741R wrote:
Looking beyond the Hamilton vs Verstappen debate for one minute, is it just me who thinks this race weekend wasn't the stewards (or Michael Masi's) finest hour? The negotiations on the grid over where Verstappen would restart, what was that all about?

Abu Dhabi on Sunday will be interesting nonetheless.


He's giving Red Bull a choice - either stay in position and get a time penalty or go back behind Hamilton and gamble on the restart.
Last edited by TheFlyingDisk on Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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scbriml
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:00 pm

Dutchy wrote:
T4thH wrote:
It is silly, that Verstappen got only a 10 sec penalty; this is the biggest joke et all.


So you think it would be fair to punish him more, more than 3 times getting ordered to let your opponent fly by, getting 5 seconds penalty. And moreover, you think it is a worse offence than knocking your opponent out of the race. My guess is that you are letting your fanboy do the talking instead of being objective.


Frankly, that's what his somewhat desperate driving deserved. He was basically in a rage since putting his car in the wall on Saturday.

The 10s penalty is the standard one for causing a collision in a race regardless of the consequences. He was lucky that Ocon and/or Bottas weren't a few seconds closer otherwise he'd be behind going into the last race.
 
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scbriml
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:06 pm

petertenthije wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
Ver was told to let Ham past. There is nothing about how or where or when ham chooses to do so.
I am willing to bet that before the next season starts the rules will be updated.
For instance that giving back a position has to be done within X seconds / metres of passing the next DRS line.

Also, maybe a radio channel reserved for FIA communication only? Apparantly HAM was not informed in time that MAX had to yield, because the Mercedes radio was in use by engineers? Similar to when someone steps on the ATC frequency.


The easiest thing to do would be to disallow the use of DRS for one lap by the yielding car from the point the other car moves back ahead.
 
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Aesma
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:13 pm

Agree or not, the way the rules are applied usually sanctions what the driver did, not the consequences. That's why Hamilton got 10s at Silverstone, and VER got the same here. It was deemed they made a mistake, not that they tried to eliminate the other (for that, the penalty is a bit harsher, remember 1997).
 
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scbriml
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:22 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Honestly, if one considers what Verstappen did to Hamilton is brake testing, then why is it that back in 2017 at Baku, Hamilton wasn't considered to have braketested Vettel as they go about the track during the safety car period.


Nice whataboutism, but the situations were entirely different - Baku was behind the safety car and just because Hamilton didn't accelerate when Vettel expected him to doesn't make it a brake test.

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Give one to Hamilton too. After 6 seasons of cakewalking the championship, Lewis is rattled having to fight so closely that he is acting like it's 2016 all over again.


I would say Verstappen was clearly the more rattled of the two in Saudi Arabia, it was by far his worse weekend of the season, just when he needed to keep it all together. Claiming not to feel any pressure is one thing, his face said the opposite. Verstappen was rattled in FP when re refused to do race pace work to concentrate on qualifying. Then he became more rattled when he hit the wall when pole was his to lose. Multiple penalties for overtaking off track (something he seems incapable of correcting) and then that nasty little brake check all seem to indicate who's feeling the pressure more.
 
petertenthije
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:34 pm

Reinhardt wrote:
Really, the only rattled driver I saw yesterday was Verstappen. He always acts like a child when something doesn't go wrong. It's always the car's fault. Always the other persons. He never ever accepts he isn't fast enough or he made a mistake. He has always pushed what is acceptable on overtakes and yesterday what he did was not acceptable. Nor was Brazil despite the fact he got away with it.

I would disagree. Had you said this the previous season, or early this season, you'd be right. But Max has matured quite a bit.
After the race he said that car was good, the team was good, better luck next time.
Compare that to Hamiltons bitching and whining about tire changing during red flag or everytime Max came inside his rearview mirror.


Speaking of whining and bitching, Helmut Marko does not accept the penalty.
I am not quoting but paraphrasing, as I am translating from a Dutch source:
https://www.formule1.nl/nieuws/marko-wo ... abie-niet/
Helmut Marko wrote:
"We do not accept the result. Our engineers are now looking into it, but we think we can show there was no brake test. Then Hamilton crashed into our car causing two cuts in the rear tyres. Those were deep enough that we could no longer overtake." Helmut then continues: "At the second start Hamilton was more then 10 car lengths behind. Vettel was penalised for this at Budapest. With this action Hamilton could better prepare his tyres. Hamilton then pushes Max of the track, with no response (from FIA). We have the feeling that we are treated differently".
 
Reinhardt
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:54 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Funny how when in other instances, when Max has the inside line and don't yield, Hamilton fanboys cry about how unfair it is that Hamilton wasn't given any space. But when Lewis does the same thing on Max, it's Max's fault, that he should have yielded.


Example? If a driver is more than halfway along side at the apex you have to give them space. Cars can't just disappear at that point. Before that the car behind should yield. If they've divebombed in with no attempt to make the corner like this race then it's entirely the fault of the person coming in from behind.

By the way I don't think Lewis is a saint and I'll call him out when I see him do something wrong. He has twice in the last 2 seasons taken out people who were in race winning positions and it was unacceptable (Perez + Albon). What I dislike about Verstappen fans is that he never, ever does anything wrong despite it being blatant.

He is no doubt incredibly fast. But I don't like his all of die attitude. It's fun for a while but it was also incredibly dangerous. He has been better most of this season but what you saw yesterday was the Verstappen of old.

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Reinhardt wrote:
Really, the only rattled driver I saw yesterday was Verstappen. He always acts like a child when something doesn't go wrong. It's always the car's fault. Always the other persons. He never ever accepts he isn't fast enough or he made a mistake. He has always pushed what is acceptable on overtakes and yesterday what he did was not acceptable. Nor was Brazil despite the fact he got away with it.


One can say the same about Lewis. And yet, you proclaim that it's Max that is rattled. Really funny.


The style of Max's driving yesterday was of someone rattled. He didn't need to do what he did at the first corner either time. He should have thought about the longer game. He was ahead in the championship. He didn't need to put it all on the line so early in the race (if ever).
 
Reinhardt
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:58 pm

petertenthije wrote:
Reinhardt wrote:
Really, the only rattled driver I saw yesterday was Verstappen. He always acts like a child when something doesn't go wrong. It's always the car's fault. Always the other persons. He never ever accepts he isn't fast enough or he made a mistake. He has always pushed what is acceptable on overtakes and yesterday what he did was not acceptable. Nor was Brazil despite the fact he got away with it.


I would disagree. Had you said this the previous season, or early this season, you'd be right. But Max has matured quite a bit.
After the race he said that car was good, the team was good, better luck next time.


Yes true he has been better most of this year. But yesterday was a return to what he did before.

Reinhardt wrote:
Compare that to Hamiltons bitching and whining about tire changing during red flag or everytime Max came inside his rearview mirror.


He was annoyed he just came in for a pit-stop and then there was a red flag where Verstappen got a free change of tyres.
He had everyright to complain about Verstappen did when Max was in his mirrors. He nearly took him out, twice.

petertenthije wrote:
Speaking of whining and bitching, Helmut Marko does not accept the penalty.
I am not quoting but paraphrasing, as I am translating from a Dutch source:
https://www.formule1.nl/nieuws/marko-wo ... abie-niet/
Helmut Marko wrote:
"We do not accept the result. Our engineers are now looking into it, but we think we can show there was no brake test. Then Hamilton crashed into our car causing two cuts in the rear tyres. Those were deep enough that we could no longer overtake." Helmut then continues: "At the second start Hamilton was more then 10 car lengths behind. Vettel was penalised for this at Budapest. With this action Hamilton could better prepare his tyres. Hamilton then pushes Max of the track, with no response (from FIA). We have the feeling that we are treated differently".


Oh there is a surprise. Ignores the two parts where Verstappen over-took outside of the lines, and deliberately braked too late to make a corner.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:59 pm

scbriml wrote:
Nice whataboutism, but the situations were entirely different - Baku was behind the safety car and just because Hamilton didn't accelerate when Vettel expected him to doesn't make it a brake test.


Of course it is a brake test. Only reason why you say it isn't is because it's involving Lewis.

scbriml wrote:
I would say Verstappen was clearly the more rattled of the two in Saudi Arabia, it was by far his worse weekend of the season, just when he needed to keep it all together. Claiming not to feel any pressure is one thing, his face said the opposite. Verstappen was rattled in FP when re refused to do race pace work to concentrate on qualifying. Then he became more rattled when he hit the wall when pole was his to lose. Multiple penalties for overtaking off track (something he seems incapable of correcting) and then that nasty little brake check all seem to indicate who's feeling the pressure more.


Despite all that, he still finished second despite Mercedes' clear advantage over the Red Bulls. Whereas Lewis was busy moaning on the radio about everything and anything that doesn't go his way.
 
Virtual737
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:03 pm

If Lewis was rattled this weekend then I hope he's rattled next weekend too.
 
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:05 pm

petertenthije wrote:
Speaking of whining and bitching, Helmut Marko does not accept the penalty.
I am not quoting but paraphrasing, as I am translating from a Dutch source:
https://www.formule1.nl/nieuws/marko-wo ... abie-niet/
Helmut Marko wrote:
"We do not accept the result. Our engineers are now looking into it, but we think we can show there was no brake test. Then Hamilton crashed into our car causing two cuts in the rear tyres. Those were deep enough that we could no longer overtake." Helmut then continues: "At the second start Hamilton was more then 10 car lengths behind. Vettel was penalised for this at Budapest. With this action Hamilton could better prepare his tyres. Hamilton then pushes Max of the track, with no response (from FIA). We have the feeling that we are treated differently".


Marko, just like Verstappen, needs to learn the rules. The "10 car length rule" doesn't apply to race restarts as it's neither a SC situation (the SC is just repositioning back to the pit lane) nor is it a formation lap. That rule doesn't apply. It's a slightly bizarre one, but it has come up before during red flag restarts.

Marko also claimed immediately after the race that Red Bull's telemetry showed Verstappen didn't use his brakes in the collision, yet the stewards can tell us the force applied to the pedal and the deceleration rate. :lol:
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:10 pm

Reinhardt wrote:
What I dislike about Verstappen fans is that he never, ever does anything wrong despite it being blatant.


This is only because Hamilton fans never seem to admit he does something wrong either. Case in point, his hamhanded move against Max at Silverstone. Say what you want about "Verstappen playing the longer game", but Lewis was just as inept there. But yet, only Max gets criticized. Go figure.

Reinhardt wrote:
The style of Max's driving yesterday was of someone rattled. He didn't need to do what he did at the first corner either time. He should have thought about the longer game. He was ahead in the championship. He didn't need to put it all on the line so early in the race (if ever).


He most certainly had to go for it. The Red Bull clearly doesn't have the advantage of the Mercedes and he needs to be in the lead if he wants to keep the advantage. I mean, they're on level pegging now so if Max hadn't tried to keep at it, he could have even fallen back behind Bottas even, and lose the lead.

The longer game only works if you have a big enough advantage. With things as close as they are, both drivers need to go all out.

scbriml wrote:
Marko also claimed immediately after the race that Red Bull's telemetry showed Verstappen didn't use his brakes in the collision, yet the stewards can tell us the force applied to the pedal and the deceleration rate. :lol:


He's actually not wrong. Max slowed down by lifting the throttle. It was only after Lewis remained behind that Max braked. Even so, it's not like the braking was sudden.

Image

In fact, while the telemetry tells one thing, the video footage shows another. It seems that Lewis kept some throttle in, and then crashed into Verstappen after the Red Bull started accelerating again. If it's confirmed that the Red Bull is brake testing Hamilton, wouldn't Hamilton crash into Max immediately, and not after the Red Bull started accelerating?

So as in Monza, the stewards intepretation of the matter can be questioned. Funny then that two of them were also present at Monza when Max was given his grid penalty.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmGZWiPa2R8
Last edited by TheFlyingDisk on Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
astuteman
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:22 pm

marcelh wrote:
astuteman wrote:
marcelh wrote:

You’re not correctly quoting the verdict (it was a sudden breaking, not erratically. Knowing VER was also shifting down, a deceleration of 2,4G isn’t uncommon at that point - I haven’t read VER hit the brakes. But hey don’t let the facts get in the way to make up a break test. It would have been wiser by VER not to slow down that much at that location of the track, but I can understand why he did it, just before a DRS measuring point. HAM driving into VER his car was also not the brightest HAM has shown us.


Hope this helps generate more accuracy...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/59542219

The stewards looked into this incident after the race. They gave Verstappen a 10-second time penalty and two penalty points on his licence.

Their reasoning was that Verstappen had been told to give the place back "strategically" and "it was obvious that neither driver wanted to take the lead prior to the DRS detection line".

They added: "The key point was that [Verstappen] then braked suddenly [at 69 bar] and significantly, resulting in 2.4g deceleration… The sudden braking was determined to be erratic and hence the predominant cause of the collision."


So yes. "erratic" IS correctly quoting the steward's verdict.
And yes, "Verstappen braked suddenly (at 69 bar) resulting in a 2.4g deceleration... that was the predominant cause of the collision".
Sounds like a brake test to me.

But hey! Don't let the facts get in the way............


Fair enough, I was wrong and VER does deserve the penalty. He should have been wiser and not touched the brakepedal for a moment. But HAM was at a position he didn’t need to be, so he’s to blame also. He definately knew what was going on, so stating after the race he didn’t knew what was going on is really GOAT like behavior….


Do you have any evidence that he knew what was going on at the time of the collision?
Forum rules require that you back claims like that up with evidence
Unfortunately, all of the evidence points to him NOT knowing what was going on at the time of the collision.

Given Max's propensity for not caring about making contact in the goal of what is euphemistically termed "hard racing" its perhaps not surprising that Hamilton was circumspect.
Its no matter.
Any racing driver that deliberately brakes that hard in the full knowledge that he had another driver so close behind him, has to accept that he was responsible for the collision.

For Max to deny that is as disingenuous as his "we both failed to make the turn in turn 1" when he clearly nudged Hamilton off the track and left him nowhere else to go.
It is very clear that Hamilton would have had no problem making the turn if Max hadn't crowded him off.

Both penalties were very well deserved.
And as you were at great pains to tell us after Silverstone, if the Stewards found predominant fault, then it must be correct, No?
Or is this another of those rules that changes just to suit your own personal inclination?
 
StarAC17
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:38 pm

petertenthije wrote:
And noone likes it when the rules work against them. Remember that tantrum HAM gave when VER changed tires during the red flag?


I think that was Hamilton venting frustration with the strategy. Him and Bottas decided to box under the first safety car which was wise but I think that safety car did 5 or so laps before the race was red-flagged. Had it been just a safety car then it would have been the right strategy.

Also in Imola he got an brand new front wing on a free stop because of the Bottas/Russell crash and got repairs in Silverstone. This goes both ways and as long as its the rule and applied consistently then I have no problem with this.

If Masi knew he had to bring equipment on the track to fix the barrier which was obvious he should have red-flagged the race immediately after Mick's crash.

Boeing74741R wrote:
Looking beyond the Hamilton vs Verstappen debate for one minute, is it just me who thinks this race weekend wasn't the stewards (or Michael Masi's) finest hour? The negotiations on the grid over where Verstappen would restart, what was that all about?

Abu Dhabi on Sunday will be interesting nonetheless.

Aesma wrote:
Back in the day you could take a new car during a red flag !


If I remember rightly, that was when spare cars were still a thing and could only occur if the red flag was brought out during the first 2 laps as the race would start from scratch. I remember Schumacher doing this in Germany 2001 after Burti slammed into the back of him at the start when his gearbox was having issues. It helped in his case that the spare car was always set up for him by default.


They did this to themselves because they have been inconsistent with the penalties all season. Penalty here, not in Brazil, VER gets penalized for a yellow flag, HAM does not. .

All sports fans hate officiating not because of the rules but when they are applied inconsistently. If any of you watch baseball you don't care that a particular umpire has a wide or narrow strike zone as long as its consistent. Same with football both American and the real one, fans get frustrated when stars get preferential calls or fouls are inconsistent.

scbriml wrote:
I would say Verstappen was clearly the more rattled of the two in Saudi Arabia, it was by far his worse weekend of the season, just when he needed to keep it all together. Claiming not to feel any pressure is one thing, his face said the opposite. Verstappen was rattled in FP when re refused to do race pace work to concentrate on qualifying. Then he became more rattled when he hit the wall when pole was his to lose. Multiple penalties for overtaking off track (something he seems incapable of correcting) and then that nasty little brake check all seem to indicate who's feeling the pressure more.


This loses the bigger point that Hamilton was 99% going to win this race regardless as he was on the hards and by lap 45 Verstappen's mediums were gone. That or Verstappen basically quit the race. Lewis was wondering where he was and Bono relayed that.
Last edited by StarAC17 on Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
StarAC17
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:41 pm

scbriml wrote:
Marko, just like Verstappen, needs to learn the rules. The "10 car length rule" doesn't apply to race restarts as it's neither a SC situation (the SC is just repositioning back to the pit lane) nor is it a formation lap. That rule doesn't apply. It's a slightly bizarre one, but it has come up before during red flag restarts.

Marko also claimed immediately after the race that Red Bull's telemetry showed Verstappen didn't use his brakes in the collision, yet the stewards can tell us the force applied to the pedal and the deceleration rate. :lol:


Helmut Marko needs to be escorted from the paddock and directly to the old folks home. :duck: :duck:

He is actually ruining RedBull and making them look horrible when Christian is more than capable of running the show and being a pragmatic leader.
 
Virtual737
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:43 pm

StarAC17 wrote:

He is actually ruining RedBull and making them look horrible when Christian is more than capable of running the show and being a pragmatic leader.


Indeed. I actually quite like Spice Boy but recently he's become quite the moaner himself. I'm hoping it's just Helmut rubbing off on him (not too many times I can write THAT comment!) and he'll return to being a decent chap once Helmut has gone.
 
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:30 pm

Dutchy wrote:
T4thH wrote:
It is silly, that Verstappen got only a 10 sec penalty; this is the biggest joke et all.

So you think it would be fair to punish him more, more than 3 times getting ordered to let your opponent fly by, getting 5 seconds penalty. And moreover, you think it is a worse offence than knocking your opponent out of the race. My guess is that you are letting your fanboy do the talking instead of being objective.

Commit three fouls, get three penalties.

Is Max expecting a volume discount?

Turns out this week the stewards aren't very fond of "strategic" brake checks or off-road racing.

Them's the breaks, maybe stick closer to the rules and avoid giving the stewards the ability to shape the race.

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
He most certainly had to go for it. The Red Bull clearly doesn't have the advantage of the Mercedes and he needs to be in the lead if he wants to keep the advantage. I mean, they're on level pegging now so if Max hadn't tried to keep at it, he could have even fallen back behind Bottas even, and lose the lead.

The longer game only works if you have a big enough advantage. With things as close as they are, both drivers need to go all out.

Interesting statement, almost reads as a confession that RB can't win on merit so has resort to cheating to have a chance.

StarAC17 wrote:
All sports fans hate officiating not because of the rules but when they are applied inconsistently. If any of you watch baseball you don't care that a particular umpire has a wide or narrow strike zone as long as its consistent. Same with football both American and the real one, fans get frustrated when stars get preferential calls or fouls are inconsistent.

On the other hand, word football fans hate when players take dives inside the box, US football fans hate when receivers run through the defensive back hoping for a pass interference call.

StarAC17 wrote:
This loses the bigger point that Hamilton was 99% going to win this race regardless as he was on the hards and by lap 45 Verstappen's mediums were gone. That or Verstappen basically quit the race. Lewis was wondering where he was and Bono relayed that.

Some times it's just not your day. A good sport would tip their hat and prepare for the next race. This thread seems to be full of people preparing their meal of sour grapes they expect to be eating next week.
 
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Dec 06, 2021 4:20 pm

Virtual737 wrote:
If Lewis was rattled this weekend then I hope he's rattled next weekend too.


Indeed! :rotfl:

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Of course it is a brake test. Only reason why you say it isn't is because it's involving Lewis.


The only reason you say it is is because it's involving Hamilton. :spin:

Who did the stewards penalise in Baku? Who did the stewards penalise in Saudi Arabia? Cue the inevitable "The stewards got it wrong" argument.

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Whereas Lewis was busy moaning on the radio about everything and anything that doesn't go his way.


Verstappen was busy moaning on the radio as well, so what's the issue?
 
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scbriml
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Dec 06, 2021 4:27 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Even so, it's not like the braking was sudden.


Well, not for the first time, the race stewards disagree with you.

Document linked previously in thread:
In deciding to penalise the driver of Car 33, the key point for the Stewards was that the driver of Car 33 then braked suddenly (69 bar) and significantly, resulting in 2.4g deceleration.
 
astuteman
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Dec 06, 2021 4:39 pm

scbriml wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Even so, it's not like the braking was sudden.


Well, not for the first time, the race stewards disagree with you.

Document linked previously in thread:
In deciding to penalise the driver of Car 33, the key point for the Stewards was that the driver of Car 33 then braked suddenly (69 bar) and significantly, resulting in 2.4g deceleration.


Whilst we're on the subject of consistency ....
You have to suspect that if the Stewards had penalised Hamilton, that would considered by these posters fair and proper.

For what its worth, if the last few races have shown anything it's that Hamilton races at a different level when he's pissed off .......
What was it Toto said in Brazil?
"They've woken the Lion"

They should keep on doing it ...... :)

Rgds
 
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Dec 06, 2021 4:45 pm

astuteman wrote:
For what its worth, if the last few races have shown anything it's that Hamilton races at a different level when he's pissed off .......
What was it Toto said in Brazil?
"They've woken the Lion"

They should keep on doing it ...... :)

I think a big part of it is the driver, but another part of it is that RB hasn't found a response to the Merc "straight line speed" advantage that Horner was speaking of a few weeks ago.

I don't know anything about the Abu Dhabi course, does it play to one team's advantage or the other?
 
astuteman
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Dec 06, 2021 4:55 pm

Revelation wrote:
astuteman wrote:
For what its worth, if the last few races have shown anything it's that Hamilton races at a different level when he's pissed off .......
What was it Toto said in Brazil?
"They've woken the Lion"

They should keep on doing it ...... :)

I think a big part of it is the driver, but another part of it is that RB hasn't found a response to the Merc "straight line speed" advantage that Horner was speaking of a few weeks ago.

I don't know anything about the Abu Dhabi course, does it play to one team's advantage or the other?


I don't know. Horner very clearly pointed at the Merc straight line speed advantage, just as he did in Brazil.
The irony, in Brazil, at least, was that the Merc wasn't even in the top quartile in the speed traps.
It was Verstappen's Red Bull that was slowest.
Which sort of defeats his point..

And that for me, has to be a function of set-up.
Verstappen admitted that in Brazil they'd set up a lot of wing as the best way of protecting the tyres in the infield to gain a long term advantage in the race.
We all know that there have been earlier races where the Red Bull had very similar straight line speed.

I haven't seen anyone show that there is a meaningful difference between the power of the Merc and Honda engines.
Which means IMO that this is a question of set-up.

At Brazil, Wolff suggested that Merc have finally got the car to go round high speed corners as they would like it.
The paradox for me is that I think that's where the Merc's "speed" is coming from.
IMO they now don't need to run as much wing to protect the tyres in the twisty bits.

I feel that its fair to say that year after year Merc have shown that their Continuous Improvement process is utterly relentless....

Slightly more controversially, I think that's down to Wolff's leadership and a focus on their own performance rather than overly indulging in gamesmanship (I say "overly" as I'm sure they do indulge). I feel that Red Bull's team culture is letting them down at the final hurdle
That's what I see. I'm sure others might see things differently...

Rgds
 
StarAC17
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Dec 06, 2021 5:04 pm

Revelation wrote:
astuteman wrote:
For what its worth, if the last few races have shown anything it's that Hamilton races at a different level when he's pissed off .......
What was it Toto said in Brazil?
"They've woken the Lion"

They should keep on doing it ...... :)

I think a big part of it is the driver, but another part of it is that RB hasn't found a response to the Merc "straight line speed" advantage that Horner was speaking of a few weeks ago.

I don't know anything about the Abu Dhabi course, does it play to one team's advantage or the other?


If it was the old layout I would say that RedBull has got this (very Mexico like in some of the turns). Although Merc has won every race here in the turbo-hybrid era with the exception of 2020 when Lewis has the championship wrapped up and had just recovered from Covid giving Max the win last year.

This new layout looks to be built for the Merc but again so was Austin and Max won that race. Remember neither driver has to win, whichever driver finishes ahead wins the title unless they both don't score points which would mean Max wins on the account of more race wins this year 9 over 8.

That in itself scares me as Max can pull a Monza and take him an Lewis out and be crowned champion. I want to see this decided on pure racing.

Here is the wikipedia page for the circuit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yas_Marina_Circuit
 
Reinhardt
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Dec 06, 2021 5:08 pm

astuteman wrote:
I don't know. Horner very clearly pointed at the Merc straight line speed advantage, just as he did in Brazil.
The irony, in Brazil, at least, was that the Merc wasn't even in the top quartile in the speed traps.
It was Verstappen's Red Bull that was slowest.
Which sort of defeats his point..

And that for me, has to be a function of set-up.
Verstappen admitted that in Brazil they'd set up a lot of wing as the best way of protecting the tyres in the infield to gain a long term advantage in the race.
We all know that there have been earlier races where the Red Bull had very similar straight line speed.

I haven't seen anyone show that there is a meaningful difference between the power of the Merc and Honda engines.
Which means IMO that this is a question of set-up.

At Brazil, Wolff suggested that Merc have finally got the car to go round high speed corners as they would like it.
The paradox for me is that I think that's where the Merc's "speed" is coming from.
IMO they now don't need to run as much wing to protect the tyres in the twisty bits.

I feel that its fair to say that year after year Merc have shown that their Continuous Improvement process is utterly relentless....

Slightly more controversially, I think that's down to Wolff's leadership and a focus on their own performance rather than overly indulging in gamesmanship (I say "overly" as I'm sure they do indulge). I feel that Red Bull's team culture is letting them down at the final hurdle
That's what I see. I'm sure others might see things differently...

Rgds


What's also interesting, or we should remember is that at the start of this season the regs were changed and the most affected teams were those who ran low rake e.g Mercedes, Aston Martin. So Mercedes have been playing catch up to get back the speed they lost because of that reg change.

Kind of ironic those complaining about Merc getting FIA assistance yet what happened with that reg change screwed them the most.
 
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Dec 06, 2021 5:15 pm

StarAC17 wrote:
If it was the old layout I would say that RedBull has got this (very Mexico like in some of the turns). Although Merc has won every race here in the turbo-hybrid era with the exception of 2020 when Lewis has the championship wrapped up and had just recovered from Covid giving Max the win last year.

This new layout looks to be built for the Merc but again so was Austin and Max won that race. Remember neither driver has to win, whichever driver finishes ahead wins the title unless they both don't score points which would mean Max wins on the account of more race wins this year 9 over 8.

That in itself scares me as Max can pull a Monza and take him an Lewis out and be crowned champion. I want to see this decided on pure racing.

Here is the wikipedia page for the circuit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yas_Marina_Circuit

Thanks for the analysis. Seems there's no clear answer.

On the "pure racing" theme, that is of course true, but it is controversy that keeps the buzz going, thus the clicks, and in turn the ad revenues. Sad but true.

For every fear of VER taking out HAM, we could also speculate BOT taking out VER leading to both drivers and constructors championship for Merc.

We live in interesting times.

Any DNF amongst Merc and Red Bull will receive intense scrutiny, to be sure.
 
Boeing74741R
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Dec 06, 2021 7:21 pm

Revelation wrote:
Any DNF amongst Merc and Red Bull will receive intense scrutiny, to be sure.


The conspiracy theorists are going to have a field day, that’s for sure!

Reinhardt wrote:
astuteman wrote:
I don't know. Horner very clearly pointed at the Merc straight line speed advantage, just as he did in Brazil.
The irony, in Brazil, at least, was that the Merc wasn't even in the top quartile in the speed traps.
It was Verstappen's Red Bull that was slowest.
Which sort of defeats his point..

And that for me, has to be a function of set-up.
Verstappen admitted that in Brazil they'd set up a lot of wing as the best way of protecting the tyres in the infield to gain a long term advantage in the race.
We all know that there have been earlier races where the Red Bull had very similar straight line speed.

I haven't seen anyone show that there is a meaningful difference between the power of the Merc and Honda engines.
Which means IMO that this is a question of set-up.

At Brazil, Wolff suggested that Merc have finally got the car to go round high speed corners as they would like it.
The paradox for me is that I think that's where the Merc's "speed" is coming from.
IMO they now don't need to run as much wing to protect the tyres in the twisty bits.

I feel that its fair to say that year after year Merc have shown that their Continuous Improvement process is utterly relentless....

Slightly more controversially, I think that's down to Wolff's leadership and a focus on their own performance rather than overly indulging in gamesmanship (I say "overly" as I'm sure they do indulge). I feel that Red Bull's team culture is letting them down at the final hurdle
That's what I see. I'm sure others might see things differently...

Rgds


What's also interesting, or we should remember is that at the start of this season the regs were changed and the most affected teams were those who ran low rake e.g Mercedes, Aston Martin. So Mercedes have been playing catch up to get back the speed they lost because of that reg change.

Kind of ironic those complaining about Merc getting FIA assistance yet what happened with that reg change screwed them the most.


To add to that, I didn’t really believe Toto Wolff much when he said earlier in the season Mercedes had effectively stopped development of this season’s car to focus on the new regs for next year. If they had done that, Verstappen would have probably wrapped the title up by now.

The more I think about it, the more I see parallels between Mercedes this year and the Williams FW16 in 1994 when it was during the second half of the season when we saw its true potential having struggled during the first half of the season. Granted, mid-season rule changes such as increasing ride height worked in their favour and there’s been none of that this year. Come to think of it, each car since the 2017 changes Mercedes have described their car as a “diva” yet they still got there in the end for the last few seasons.

Revelation wrote:
I don't know anything about the Abu Dhabi course, does it play to one team's advantage or the other?


I think the jury is still out on that one given the changes and how Mercedes struggled at Austin where they were supposed to be the strongest.
 
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Aesma
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:08 pm

Let's not forget the qualifications where Max was probably fast enough to get pole, but that was done by taking too much risk, which didn't work out.

I think if we had had a "boring" race, without accidents, without drama, Lewis was fast enough to win from a few spots behind Max, so second is the best result the Dutchman could expect, and no need for all the drama. Even with a damaged Merc Lewis was still faster.

What's crazy is that in comparison Bottas is struggling, always slow, always having trouble overtaking, his making it to the podium was almost a miracle yesterday, I wouldn't be surprised if it was his last podium ever.
 
astuteman
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:46 pm

Aesma wrote:
Let's not forget the qualifications where Max was probably fast enough to get pole, but that was done by taking too much risk, which didn't work out.

I think if we had had a "boring" race, without accidents, without drama, Lewis was fast enough to win from a few spots behind Max, so second is the best result the Dutchman could expect, and no need for all the drama. Even with a damaged Merc Lewis was still faster.

What's crazy is that in comparison Bottas is struggling, always slow, always having trouble overtaking, his making it to the podium was almost a miracle yesterday, I wouldn't be surprised if it was his last podium ever.


For what its worth, I think its a sort of 1 out of 2.
I don't think Bottas is slow as such.
He is very rarely more than about 0.1 sec off Hamilton's pace.
There are other pairings in the paddock with bigger differentials
(including Verstappen and Perez)

But he does always seem to have trouble making the move when it counts.
His "lion" doesn't wake up like Hamilton's does....

Rgds
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Dec 06, 2021 10:27 pm

Revelation wrote:
Interesting statement, almost reads as a confession that RB can't win on merit so has resort to cheating to have a chance.


How does that even remotely resemble the meaning of what I've written? From an NFL perspective, think of it as a Hail Mary pass. Is that cheating?


scbriml wrote:
The only reason you say it is is because it's involving Hamilton. :spin:

Who did the stewards penalise in Baku? Who did the stewards penalise in Saudi Arabia? Cue the inevitable "The stewards got it wrong" argument.


Yes, because the stewards never got it wrong. Like I said, karma got him in the end as he had to pit to attach his loose headrest, giving Vettel back the position he lost from that penalty.


astuteman wrote:
Whilst we're on the subject of consistency ....
You have to suspect that if the Stewards had penalised Hamilton, that would considered by these posters fair and proper.


It's not a question of who was penalized, it's a question of fair implementation of the rules. Lewis pulled a lot of the same things Max did, and yet he gets away scot free. Is that even fair?
 
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Revelation
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Dec 06, 2021 10:56 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Interesting statement, almost reads as a confession that RB can't win on merit so has resort to cheating to have a chance.

How does that even remotely resemble the meaning of what I've written? From an NFL perspective, think of it as a Hail Mary pass. Is that cheating?

When it involves pushing players off the field of play or contacting receivers more than five yards off the line of scrimmage it is.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:12 pm

Revelation wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Interesting statement, almost reads as a confession that RB can't win on merit so has resort to cheating to have a chance.

How does that even remotely resemble the meaning of what I've written? From an NFL perspective, think of it as a Hail Mary pass. Is that cheating?

When it involves pushing players off the field of play or contacting receivers more than five yards off the line of scrimmage it is.


Well in F1 is hardly cheating. Back in the old days car bang wheels all the time, and get off the road often. It's only in today's pampered setting that it's considered to be "cheating" for the drivers to get their elbows out.
 
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scbriml
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:30 pm

StarAC17 wrote:
If it was the old layout I would say that RedBull has got this (very Mexico like in some of the turns). Although Merc has won every race here in the turbo-hybrid era with the exception of 2020 when Lewis has the championship wrapped up and had just recovered from Covid giving Max the win last year.


Aside from having just had Covid, it was reported (but don't remember where) that, with both championships in the bag, Mercedes used that race as a glorified test session for some parts ready for this season and had turned down the engines to ensure both completed the race to validate the test. I honestly don't know how true that is. I get the testing part, but not so much why they would turn the engines down (unless to more accurately mimic expected 2021 downforce levels?)

Aesma wrote:
What's crazy is that in comparison Bottas is struggling, always slow, always having trouble overtaking, his making it to the podium was almost a miracle yesterday, I wouldn't be surprised if it was his last podium ever.


It's not that crazy. Bottas has shown he can qualify well, and has shown when he starts at the front he can lead and indeed win races. Let's not forget that while Hamilton grabbed the attention in the Brazil sprint, Bottas led from start to finish (Finnish?) and held off Verstappen. He's clearly not on Hamilton's level over a whole season but has legitimately beaten him in races. His racecraft isn't great and he does struggle to get past cars that you suspect Hamilton would have dispatched in very short measure.

We've seen two drivers who have driven on a whole other level from just about anyone else this season (with the occasional blips) and both have made their teammates look very ordinary at times.
 
Virtual737
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Thu Dec 09, 2021 7:50 am

Tiff Needell reminds me of George from Rainbow (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_(TV_series)) but his recent synopsis of the Saudi race is worth a watch:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHdCONQep4k
 
Boeing74741R
Posts: 1546
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:44 am

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Thu Dec 09, 2021 9:25 am

scbriml wrote:
StarAC17 wrote:
If it was the old layout I would say that RedBull has got this (very Mexico like in some of the turns). Although Merc has won every race here in the turbo-hybrid era with the exception of 2020 when Lewis has the championship wrapped up and had just recovered from Covid giving Max the win last year.


Aside from having just had Covid, it was reported (but don't remember where) that, with both championships in the bag, Mercedes used that race as a glorified test session for some parts ready for this season and had turned down the engines to ensure both completed the race to validate the test. I honestly don't know how true that is. I get the testing part, but not so much why they would turn the engines down (unless to more accurately mimic expected 2021 downforce levels?)


I recall Ferrari using the 2001 Japanese Grand Prix to test parts for their 2002 car as Schumacher had won the title a few races prior in Hungary and Ferrari also had the constructors title long wrapped up. I remember a magazine article putting a jokey caption alongside a photo of a Ferrari from that race saying everyone else might as well go home if this was glimpses of what to expect in 2002.

As for Mercedes, in this lengthy article about whether Lewis Hamilton should have raced in Abu Dhabi last year, it mentions the downrated engine. Maybe it was towards the end of its life and Mercedes didn't want the penalty or expense of fitting an all-new PU just for one race?

https://the-race.com/formula-1/should-b ... -dhabi-gp/

scbriml wrote:
Aesma wrote:
What's crazy is that in comparison Bottas is struggling, always slow, always having trouble overtaking, his making it to the podium was almost a miracle yesterday, I wouldn't be surprised if it was his last podium ever.


It's not that crazy. Bottas has shown he can qualify well, and has shown when he starts at the front he can lead and indeed win races. Let's not forget that while Hamilton grabbed the attention in the Brazil sprint, Bottas led from start to finish (Finnish?) and held off Verstappen. He's clearly not on Hamilton's level over a whole season but has legitimately beaten him in races. His racecraft isn't great and he does struggle to get past cars that you suspect Hamilton would have dispatched in very short measure.

We've seen two drivers who have driven on a whole other level from just about anyone else this season (with the occasional blips) and both have made their teammates look very ordinary at times.


I agree with your analysis about Hamilton and Verstappen this season. Both drivers have been exemplary and both deserve to win, though there can only be one winner.

As for Bottas, my view is that he is a good driver, but isn't at the same level as Rosberg was before him whereby he could regularly challenge Hamilton for wins and titles, as well as having his moments of madness (e.g. Hungary this year). Wasn't it a few races back where Bottas was down in midfield and even Toto Wolff was telling him to get a move on over the radio?

With that combined with having one eye to the future, it's little wonder George Russell is replacing him next year.
 
Virtual737
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Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:16 am

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Thu Dec 09, 2021 9:43 am

Boeing74741R wrote:
As for Bottas, my view is that he is a good driver, but isn't at the same level as Rosberg was before him whereby he could regularly challenge Hamilton for wins and titles, as well as having his moments of madness (e.g. Hungary this year)..


This has been good for Lewis. If you have 2 cars that are relatively well matched, one team with a top driver plus an average driver and the other team with 2 top drivers each equally likely to win a race, then the first team is likely to win the driver's championship and the second team the team championship. The only way around this would be team orders and that is not a good recipe when you have 2 top drivers in the same team.

In other words, if Bottas was anything like Rosberg, Max would have won the championship several weeks ago. Conversely, if Checo was anything like Verstappen, Lewis would already have won.

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