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Virtual737
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Thu Dec 09, 2021 9:59 am

Wow. Helmut Marko has apparently apologised for blaming Lewis.

https://www.silverarrows.net/news/red-bulls-helmut-marko-apologizes-for-blaming-lewis-hamilton/

I wonder if any in this thread might be so bold?
 
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scbriml
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Thu Dec 09, 2021 11:22 am

Virtual737 wrote:
Wow. Helmut Marko has apparently apologised for blaming Lewis.

https://www.silverarrows.net/news/red-bulls-helmut-marko-apologizes-for-blaming-lewis-hamilton/

I wonder if any in this thread might be so bold?


Except it was one of those politician's apologies, i.e. not an apology at all.

Heck, he even managed, to throw the rest of the team under the bus in issuing his "apology". Horner also threw the rest of the team under the bus in a post race interview on Sky, basically saying that all their success was down to Verstappen, who's performed miracles driving an inferior car. Great way to make the rest of the team feel good.
 
Virtual737
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Thu Dec 09, 2021 11:30 am

scbriml wrote:

Except it was one of those politician's apologies, i.e. not an apology at all.

Heck, he even managed, to throw the rest of the team under the bus in issuing his "apology". Horner also threw the rest of the team under the bus in a post race interview on Sky, basically saying that all their success was down to Verstappen, who's performed miracles driving an inferior car. Great way to make the rest of the team feel good.


Ouch - I've missed those comments. F1 coverage over here is bloody awful so I have to go searching for news. Part of me doesn't want Helmut or Christian to change tack because it makes Lewis' moaning pale into insignificance (almost).
 
Boeing74741R
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Thu Dec 09, 2021 1:53 pm

Virtual737 wrote:
Boeing74741R wrote:
As for Bottas, my view is that he is a good driver, but isn't at the same level as Rosberg was before him whereby he could regularly challenge Hamilton for wins and titles, as well as having his moments of madness (e.g. Hungary this year)..


This has been good for Lewis. If you have 2 cars that are relatively well matched, one team with a top driver plus an average driver and the other team with 2 top drivers each equally likely to win a race, then the first team is likely to win the driver's championship and the second team the team championship. The only way around this would be team orders and that is not a good recipe when you have 2 top drivers in the same team.

In other words, if Bottas was anything like Rosberg, Max would have won the championship several weeks ago. Conversely, if Checo was anything like Verstappen, Lewis would already have won.


Indeed. It seems to me Mercedes realised after Nico Rosberg announced he was calling it a day that the team's overall interests would be better served having Hamilton as the lead driver and another driver (Bottas) as number two in everything but name than having two top drivers capable of winning the driver's championship.

F1 history is littered with flashpoints between two top drivers in the same team and ending in tears: Senna and Prost at McLaren in 1988 and 89, Hamilton and Alonso at McLaren in 2007 and Hamilton and Rosberg from 2014 onwards until the end of 2016. That said, I'm amazed Hill and Villeneuve didn't clash in 1996 when it was clear from early on that one of those two would win. Similarly with Vettel and Raikkonen at Ferrari, though I guess apart from 2017 and 2018, their car wasn't a match for the Merc.

So for those reasons, I'm very curious to see how George Russell gets on at Mercedes next year. Let's be honest, he showed last year he's more than good enough to drive for them and would have won had it not been for Mercedes bungling the pit stop and a puncture later on. I doubt he's signed up to play second fiddle to Hamilton for as long as he remains in the sport. Over to Toto Wolff and co to manage that one.
 
Virtual737
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Thu Dec 09, 2021 2:02 pm

Boeing74741R wrote:
So for those reasons, I'm very curious to see how George Russell gets on at Mercedes next year. Let's be honest, he showed last year he's more than good enough to drive for them and would have won had it not been for Mercedes bungling the pit stop and a puncture later on. I doubt he's signed up to play second fiddle to Hamilton for as long as he remains in the sport. Over to Toto Wolff and co to manage that one.


I see George more as a Lewis replacement than a longer term teammate although in some ways he's a perfect choice as he can potentially fill both roles almost immediately. In the video I linked earlier Tiff Needell mirrored my thoughts that if Lewis wins this year he might still retire even with 2 years left to run. He has nothing to prove to anyone.
 
Boeing74741R
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Thu Dec 09, 2021 4:55 pm

Virtual737 wrote:
In the video I linked earlier Tiff Needell mirrored my thoughts that if Lewis wins this year he might still retire even with 2 years left to run. He has nothing to prove to anyone.


I've not yet watched the video, but the same thought crossed my mind. Sure, Hamilton is under contract for a further two years, but then so was Nico Rosberg when he called it a day.

As well as having nothing to prove like you say and even more so if he wins title number 8 on Sunday, I do wonder if after the duels he's had with Verstappen this year he's asked himself if it's something he still wants to do at this stage of his career (you could tell he was absolutely shattered after he got out of the car), even with the regulation changes coming in next year which has the potential to knock some teams back or propel others forward. Obviously there's no guarantees Mercedes will get their first car for the new regulations right first time, but given how they nailed it in 2017 and 2014 and back in 2009 as Brawn GP (albeit work started when they were still Honda), it would be out of character if they mess up initially.

Verstappen has time and youth on his side and can compete at the top level for at least the next decade. You can bet he will go again next year whether he wins his first title on Sunday or not and providing Red Bull are successful at producing a winning car for the new regulations first time right. With the soon-to-be-rebadged Honda engine now pretty much on a par with the Mercedes engine and with Adrian Newey's brilliance at designing cars, it would be a surprise if Red Bull are not competitive next year.
 
Virtual737
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Thu Dec 09, 2021 5:01 pm

Boeing74741R wrote:
Verstappen has time and youth on his side and can compete at the top level for at least the next decade. You can bet he will go again next year whether he wins his first title on Sunday or not and providing Red Bull are successful at producing a winning car for the new regulations first time right. With the soon-to-be-rebadged Honda engine now pretty much on a par with the Mercedes engine and with Adrian Newey's brilliance at designing cars, it would be a surprise if Red Bull are not competitive next year.


Absolutely. Max will almost certainly be a multi world championship winner. I'd just like him to do this without the Michael Schumacher dirty touch. I'd like Lewis to win this year mostly to remove Schumacher's last remaining record (already equalled) and then retire as the most accomplished of all time. If Max then beats that record in the next decade or so then he would deserve it too.
 
Virtual737
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Thu Dec 09, 2021 5:07 pm

Lol @ Lando Norris interviewed at Abu Dhabi today.

Reporter: "So Lando, how are you going to beat Charles to take that 5th place in the championship?"
Lando: "Err dunno, maybe brake-testing him? It's only a 10 second penalty."
 
flipdewaf
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Thu Dec 09, 2021 5:39 pm

Virtual737 wrote:
Lol @ Lando Norris interviewed at Abu Dhabi today.

Reporter: "So Lando, how are you going to beat Charles to take that 5th place in the championship?"
Lando: "Err dunno, maybe brake-testing him? It's only a 10 second penalty."

That’s brilliant! Lando is always the person I want to perform well. Lewis is easy not to like and Max seems very petulant (like vettel was at RB?) Lando is a breath of fresh air.

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
Virtual737
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Thu Dec 09, 2021 11:52 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:
Lol @ Lando Norris interviewed at Abu Dhabi today.

Reporter: "So Lando, how are you going to beat Charles to take that 5th place in the championship?"
Lando: "Err dunno, maybe brake-testing him? It's only a 10 second penalty."

That’s brilliant! Lando is always the person I want to perform well. Lewis is easy not to like and Max seems very petulant (like vettel was at RB?) Lando is a breath of fresh air.

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Indeed. Here's a link to the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7OK_Znzfso

His comment is at the 60 seconds mark.
 
marcelh
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Fri Dec 10, 2021 5:40 am

Virtual737 wrote:
Boeing74741R wrote:
Verstappen has time and youth on his side and can compete at the top level for at least the next decade. You can bet he will go again next year whether he wins his first title on Sunday or not and providing Red Bull are successful at producing a winning car for the new regulations first time right. With the soon-to-be-rebadged Honda engine now pretty much on a par with the Mercedes engine and with Adrian Newey's brilliance at designing cars, it would be a surprise if Red Bull are not competitive next year.


Absolutely. Max will almost certainly be a multi world championship winner. I'd just like him to do this without the Michael Schumacher dirty touch. I'd like Lewis to win this year mostly to remove Schumacher's last remaining record (already equalled) and then retire as the most accomplished of all time. If Max then beats that record in the next decade or so then he would deserve it too.

When Lewis wins, it’s with a MS dirty touch. Lewis is just smarter not doing it in the last race of the season…
 
Virtual737
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Fri Dec 10, 2021 7:10 am

marcelh wrote:
Lewis is just smarter


Now you're starting to get it.
 
marcelh
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Fri Dec 10, 2021 8:06 am

Virtual737 wrote:
marcelh wrote:
Lewis is just smarter


Now you're starting to get it.

You at least agree HAM is just doing what VER is being accused of by many devoted HAM groupies over here….
 
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Aesma
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Fri Dec 10, 2021 12:11 pm

To finish first, first you need to finish.

To become a 7time WC, the first thing is to be a very fast driver. Then have brains, choose your fights, even have a little luck sometimes. Lewis learned this early as he "should" have been a WC in 2007 but wasn't because of a series of mistakes on his part and on his team's part.

Verstappen used to be nicknamed crashtappen, remember that ? Don't remember something similar for Hamilton.
 
Virtual737
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Fri Dec 10, 2021 12:18 pm

marcelh wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:
marcelh wrote:
Lewis is just smarter


Now you're starting to get it.

You at least agree HAM is just doing what VER is being accused of by many devoted HAM groupies over here….


Not really. He's a whiner. He makes mistakes. Sometimes he goes for gaps that don't exist and sometimes he's over the edge. Max is like this most of the time and way more aggressive to the point that if the other driver doesn't give then there will always be a collision.

The vast majority of F1 journalists.that have commented on the situation seem to take this view but you don't, yet you're the first to say we only point out the problem with Max because we're Lewis fans.

Do you see the hypocrisy?
 
marcelh
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Fri Dec 10, 2021 1:55 pm

Virtual737 wrote:
marcelh wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:

Now you're starting to get it.

You at least agree HAM is just doing what VER is being accused of by many devoted HAM groupies over here….


Not really. He's a whiner. He makes mistakes. Sometimes he goes for gaps that don't exist and sometimes he's over the edge. Max is like this most of the time and way more aggressive to the point that if the other driver doesn't give then there will always be a collision.

The vast majority of F1 journalists.that have commented on the situation seem to take this view but you don't, yet you're the first to say we only point out the problem with Max because we're Lewis fans.

Do you see the hypocrisy?


Hypocrisy? You mean double standards by the HAM fans
 
Virtual737
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Fri Dec 10, 2021 2:14 pm

marcelh wrote:

Hypocrisy? You mean double standards by the HAM fans


The majority of professional commentators and racers seem to disagree with you, so I guess you're trolling.
 
StarAC17
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Fri Dec 10, 2021 3:31 pm

Aesma wrote:
To finish first, first you need to finish.

To become a 7time WC, the first thing is to be a very fast driver. Then have brains, choose your fights, even have a little luck sometimes. Lewis learned this early as he "should" have been a WC in 2007 but wasn't because of a series of mistakes on his part and on his team's part.

Verstappen used to be nicknamed crashtappen, remember that ? Don't remember something similar for Hamilton.


Toto said to Hamilton, no DNF's as they are what can really decide what happens in a season.

As said Hamilton has had his moments doing very similar to what Verstappen has done. In Spa 2008 he overtook Kimi by cutting the bus-stop chicane and played similar games with giving the position back. He was penalized 25 seconds for that. Hamilton did manage to win the championship in 2008. This comes down to a level of maturity which Max will get or he will be beaten by Russell, Norris, Leclerc, Sainz etc. George Russell nor Hamilton won't get away with this if Mercedes is on top next year.

The unfortunate part is that the Red Bull garage seems to support his style and doesn't seem to vocally criticize Max when he does things that knock him out of a race that are of his own doing. It seems like a toxic environment where the buck doesn't stop at the top, examples being this quote. Marko runs his mouth saying that Lewis intentionally punted Max into the wall at Silverstone and that Lewis was at fault in Saudi Arabia. The fact that this team is so successful despite this dysfunction is actually really impressive.

scbriml wrote:
Heck, he even managed, to throw the rest of the team under the bus in issuing his "apology". Horner also threw the rest of the team under the bus in a post race interview on Sky, basically saying that all their success was down to Verstappen, who's performed miracles driving an inferior car. Great way to make the rest of the team feel good.


I would reckon if Max was a Mercedes driver Toto would have none of this, neither would Binotto or Seidl.
 
petertenthije
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Fri Dec 10, 2021 5:36 pm

Is this really a Sky Sports advert, or someone playing a joke?
Talk about poor taste!

https://twitter.com/_autohan/status/146 ... verstappen
 
StarAC17
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Fri Dec 10, 2021 5:56 pm

petertenthije wrote:
Is this really a Sky Sports advert, or someone playing a joke?
Talk about poor taste!

https://twitter.com/_autohan/status/146 ... verstappen


I think that is a joke, if it isn't they would have issued an apology.

This is most definitely a troll, probably pointing out the fact that they think Sky is favouring Hamilton.
 
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Revelation
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Fri Dec 10, 2021 6:24 pm

Lots of discussion of Bottas's role on the Merc team, not much discussion of how Perez is not doing a great job at bringing a similar number of points to his team despite having word class equipment. Shouldn't RB be looking for an upgrade? Is Max + Checo good enough to deal with Lewis + George next year?

Also interesting to read about RB's concessionary attitude. Seems like a mind-f*** tactic to me, trying to get Merc to drop their guard a bit. Doubt that will happen. Both sides will be prepared for anything/everything to happen.

Boeing74741R wrote:
As well as having nothing to prove like you say and even more so if he wins title number 8 on Sunday, I do wonder if after the duels he's had with Verstappen this year he's asked himself if it's something he still wants to do at this stage of his career (you could tell he was absolutely shattered after he got out of the car), even with the regulation changes coming in next year which has the potential to knock some teams back or propel others forward. Obviously there's no guarantees Mercedes will get their first car for the new regulations right first time, but given how they nailed it in 2017 and 2014 and back in 2009 as Brawn GP (albeit work started when they were still Honda), it would be out of character if they mess up initially.

I read the "nothing left to accomplish" stuff a lot, but for every Nico that steps away at the top there's countless others who milk every drop out of the cow. This is what these people have done since youth, and it's what fires their ego and their competitive spirit. Most do not walk away till it's clear they can't get anyone to pay them. Having two more years signed at top dollar is a big thing, IMO. More likely than not LH is back next season win or lose, IMO.

Boeing74741R wrote:
Verstappen has time and youth on his side and can compete at the top level for at least the next decade. You can bet he will go again next year whether he wins his first title on Sunday or not and providing Red Bull are successful at producing a winning car for the new regulations first time right. With the soon-to-be-rebadged Honda engine now pretty much on a par with the Mercedes engine and with Adrian Newey's brilliance at designing cars, it would be a surprise if Red Bull are not competitive next year.

No doubt both are going to be competitive. LH might find the new car with better passing opportunities is something that also fires up his competitive juices. Lots of time to discuss this in the off season though.
 
marcelh
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Fri Dec 10, 2021 6:35 pm

Virtual737 wrote:
marcelh wrote:

Hypocrisy? You mean double standards by the HAM fans


The majority of professional commentators and racers seem to disagree with you, so I guess you're trolling.

Not trolling, just a different opinion. But I don’t mind to be proven wrong, so show me the dirty details.
 
StarAC17
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Fri Dec 10, 2021 6:40 pm

Revelation wrote:
Lots of discussion of Bottas's role on the Merc team, not much discussion of how Perez is not doing a great job at bringing a similar number of points to his team despite having word class equipment. Shouldn't RB be looking for an upgrade? Is Max + Checo good enough to deal with Lewis + George next year?

Also interesting to read about RB's concessionary attitude. Seems like a mind-f*** tactic to me, trying to get Merc to drop their guard a bit. Doubt that will happen. Both sides will be prepared for anything/everything to happen.



I listened to Bottas on F1 beyond the grid about a month ago and his reasoning for leaving Mercedes was that Toto was unable or unwilling to give him a multi-year deal. Alfa-Romeo did give him a 3 year contract so he went with them. I think Toto was going to keep Bottas on for at least next year (Lewis wanted him to stay) and perhaps make Russell the Lewis replacement. Ocon who has had a really good year is also a Mercedes junior driver and he is probable in the mix to be on a post Lewis Mercedes.

I think Perez and Bottas has equal seasons and the points reflect that. Checo has been a better number 2 for RedBull that Gasly or Albon were and the only driver that they could replace Checo with is probably Gasly and that would involve Redbull admitting they didn't let him develop. Checo has another year and then they might turf him if he can't perform

If I was someone like George Russell I would avoid Redbull like the plague as they are all about Max and just Max (Riccardo realized this and left), hopefully Albon can be productive at Williams with the new regs and maybe he is driving for Mercedes in the future.

Also I can guarantee Mercedes isn't listening to Horner or RedBull at all. They are focused 100% on bringing this home on Sunday and after the FP2 results they lead by 0.4s.
 
Virtual737
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Fri Dec 10, 2021 6:59 pm

StarAC17 wrote:
I listened to Bottas on F1 beyond the grid about a month ago and his reasoning for leaving Mercedes was that Toto was unable or unwilling to give him a multi-year deal. Alfa-Romeo did give him a 3 year contract so he went with them.


Personally I think that's Merc allowing Bottas to keep some face. Why would you give up a 1 year deal in a top 2 team where you can win races for a 3 year deal in a team in the lower midfield?

If Bottas had any confidence in his own ability then he would still expect to be able to walk into another seat after another year with Merc.
 
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Revelation
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Fri Dec 10, 2021 7:13 pm

Virtual737 wrote:
StarAC17 wrote:
I listened to Bottas on F1 beyond the grid about a month ago and his reasoning for leaving Mercedes was that Toto was unable or unwilling to give him a multi-year deal. Alfa-Romeo did give him a 3 year contract so he went with them.

Personally I think that's Merc allowing Bottas to keep some face. Why would you give up a 1 year deal in a top 2 team where you can win races for a 3 year deal in a team in the lower midfield?

If Bottas had any confidence in his own ability then he would still expect to be able to walk into another seat after another year with Merc.

C'mon, man, he does have at least some confidence in his own ability, otherwise he'd quit.

As they say, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

He's just playing the long game.
 
Virtual737
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Fri Dec 10, 2021 7:20 pm

Revelation wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:
StarAC17 wrote:
I listened to Bottas on F1 beyond the grid about a month ago and his reasoning for leaving Mercedes was that Toto was unable or unwilling to give him a multi-year deal. Alfa-Romeo did give him a 3 year contract so he went with them.

Personally I think that's Merc allowing Bottas to keep some face. Why would you give up a 1 year deal in a top 2 team where you can win races for a 3 year deal in a team in the lower midfield?

If Bottas had any confidence in his own ability then he would still expect to be able to walk into another seat after another year with Merc.

C'mon, man, he does have at least some confidence in his own ability, otherwise he'd quit.

As they say, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

He's just playing the long game.


Just calling it as I see it. I don't think anyone gives up a year at Merc for 3 at Sauber (after all that's what Alfa Romeo is). This year they have had just 6 top 10 finishes (only just in the top 10) out of 42 attempts scoring a total of 13 points.
 
Virtual737
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sat Dec 11, 2021 2:06 pm

Nice drive Bottas )
 
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Dutchy
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sat Dec 11, 2021 2:51 pm

Nice driving, max,
 
Virtual737
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sat Dec 11, 2021 3:34 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Nice driving, max,


Yep he got the job done well. Good strategy calls by Red Bull too. I thought they'd totally sacrificed Checo but he did well to still get 4th, which amplifies Valterri's underperformace.

Also nice to see Lewis complimentary of MV and just admit he was faster.
 
legoguy
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sat Dec 11, 2021 4:02 pm

Really looking forward to seeing how the different tyre strategies work out with the Red Bulls on the softs and Mercedes on the mediums.
 
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Revelation
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sat Dec 11, 2021 4:32 pm

legoguy wrote:
Really looking forward to seeing how the different tyre strategies work out with the Red Bulls on the softs and Mercedes on the mediums.

As a newbie, the fact that so much depends on tires is one of the most unsatisfying aspects of motor sports. Millions of dollars spent on wind tunnels, aerodynamic simulations, carbon fiber structures, driver's salaries, and it ends up being all about lumps of spinning rubber.

As an aside, I grew up in the town where the vulcanization of rubber was invented. My school was located on Rubber Avenue, my aunt lived on Goodyear Avenue. We had a large set of factories in town that produced chemicals used in the production of rubber, and I worked in that company's R&D facilities for a short while. When I was younger it had a "rubber reclaim" facility that melted tires to try to reuse the rubber. You can only imagine what that smelled like! The also manufactured sneakers, tennis shoes, rubber boots, running shoes, etc. Most of the older women in the family worked there sewing shoes all day, unheated in winter and uncooled in summer, till they sent that work down south and then off shore. My dad worked in the chemical operation for over thirty five years. I went to their offices after he died and I really had to ask myself how the bleep he could force himself to work in such a repulsive stench each and every day, and that was long after the reclaim operation was shut down. Ahh, memories...

One can imagine this explains why I dislike the connection to tires, but I think not. It's still frustrating that so much about F1 depends on lumps of rubber. All these strategy decisions depend on such a banal thing. In my mind, it's as if the outcome of the football Champions League depended on what toilet paper the players used.
 
Virtual737
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sat Dec 11, 2021 4:46 pm

Revelation wrote:
As a newbie, the fact that so much depends on tires is one of the most unsatisfying aspects of motor sports.


You're not alone. i'm hoping that the new cars make overtaking easier to the point that the tyre lottery can be reversed. I believe the tyres were made so critical for this very reason as aero made it harder and hard to follow close to another car in dirty air.
 
PHLspecial
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sat Dec 11, 2021 4:49 pm

legoguy wrote:
Really looking forward to seeing how the different tyre strategies work out with the Red Bulls on the softs and Mercedes on the mediums.

Maybe red bull going for a two stop. With soft soft hard. While Merc goes medium hard. We shall see.
 
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zkojq
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sat Dec 11, 2021 5:09 pm

Esteban Ocon has outqualified Fernando Alonso 12-10 this season and it's pretty clear that 2021 Alonso is every bit as good as 2006 Alonso. Would someone please remind me who the last teammate to outqualify Fernando Alonso over a season?

PHLspecial wrote:
legoguy wrote:
Really looking forward to seeing how the different tyre strategies work out with the Red Bulls on the softs and Mercedes on the mediums.

Maybe red bull going for a two stop. With soft soft hard. While Merc goes medium hard. We shall see.


This will be fantastic in terms of suspense haha.
 
Virtual737
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sat Dec 11, 2021 5:15 pm

zkojq wrote:
Would someone please remind me who the last teammate to outqualify Fernando Alonso over a season?


Only ever happened once before I think. Some whiny black guy that apparently isn't one of the greatest.
 
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scbriml
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sat Dec 11, 2021 5:23 pm

Great pole lap by Verstappen and good tactics on Perez giving a tow (it seems nine times out of ten these attempts to help one driver don't really come off, but it did this time). Interesting that Mercedes didn't try the same thing for their second run, even Hamilton was never going to make up half a second.

Bahrain seems a long time ago now, and here we are. The last race of the season with the two main title contenders level on points, but Verstappen ahead by virtue of one more race win. I really don't expect these two to finish anywhere other than first & second, so it really is a case of winner takes all. So it's advantage Verstappen - ahead on countback and on pole on the faster (but less durable) tyre.

Qualifying result:
Image
Source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/latest

When asked by Sky, Horner said that Red Bull were really undecided as to which was the best tyre to start the race, but a lockup by Verstappen on his qualifying mediums gave him a flat-spot and effectively forced Red Bull's hand to go for the softs. Starting on the softs does give Red Bull an option to do a two-stop race, but that would likely require Verstappen to overtake Hamilton on-track at one point because he will almost certainly only one-stop.

I suspect this will not be dull.
 
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scbriml
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sat Dec 11, 2021 5:36 pm

zkojq wrote:
Esteban Ocon has outqualified Fernando Alonso 12-10 this season and it's pretty clear that 2021 Alonso is every bit as good as 2006 Alonso. Would someone please remind me who the last teammate to outqualify Fernando Alonso over a season?


I suspect you already know the answer to that question. :rotfl:

After Alonso's much heralded performance in Qatar, his race in Saudi Arabia was a bit of a shocker, tbh.
 
petertenthije
Posts: 4498
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2001 10:00 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sat Dec 11, 2021 5:38 pm

Revelation wrote:
It's still frustrating that so much about F1 depends on lumps of rubber. All these strategy decisions depend on such a banal thing.

Those “lumps of rubber” are very much a part of the strategic decision making. I for one think it is a good thing. You can’t just show up with the best car on the grid and win. You need the right strategy, which is a good equalizer for the teams with lesser cars? Otherwise you might as well give Mercedes the trophy at the start of the season.
 
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scbriml
Topic Author
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sat Dec 11, 2021 5:45 pm

Revelation wrote:
As a newbie, the fact that so much depends on tires is one of the most unsatisfying aspects of motor sports. Millions of dollars spent on wind tunnels, aerodynamic simulations, carbon fiber structures, driver's salaries, and it ends up being all about lumps of spinning rubber.


I can understand your viewpoint, but the simple fact is all the teams have to use the same tyres (within reason) and the best teams still end up at the front while the worse are almost always at the back.

It's quite unusual for the front two drivers to end up of different tyre strategies, so this will be very interesting to see how it pans out.
 
petertenthije
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sat Dec 11, 2021 8:05 pm

StarAC17 wrote:
petertenthije wrote:
Is this really a Sky Sports advert, or someone playing a joke?
Talk about poor taste!

https://twitter.com/_autohan/status/146 ... verstappen


I think that is a joke, if it isn't they would have issued an apology.

This is most definitely a troll, probably pointing out the fact that they think Sky is favouring Hamilton.

Oops, it’s real. An official apology was issued on the Sky Sports twitter.

https://twitter.com/SkySportsF1/status/ ... 8732448772?
 
StarAC17
Posts: 4355
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sat Dec 11, 2021 8:24 pm

scbriml wrote:
Revelation wrote:
As a newbie, the fact that so much depends on tires is one of the most unsatisfying aspects of motor sports. Millions of dollars spent on wind tunnels, aerodynamic simulations, carbon fiber structures, driver's salaries, and it ends up being all about lumps of spinning rubber.


I can understand your viewpoint, but the simple fact is all the teams have to use the same tyres (within reason) and the best teams still end up at the front while the worse are almost always at the back.

It's quite unusual for the front two drivers to end up of different tyre strategies, so this will be very interesting to see how it pans out.


It looks like his mediums had issues in Q2 and they didn't want to waste a new set.

I think Red Bull will have to do a 2 stop and Mercedes can probably get away with a 1 stop. Outside of any crashes this will likely come down to strategy.

I just hope for no funny business tomorrow and a clean race.
 
legoguy
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sat Dec 11, 2021 9:07 pm

Revelation wrote:
legoguy wrote:
Really looking forward to seeing how the different tyre strategies work out with the Red Bulls on the softs and Mercedes on the mediums.

As a newbie, the fact that so much depends on tires is one of the most unsatisfying aspects of motor sports. Millions of dollars spent on wind tunnels, aerodynamic simulations, carbon fiber structures, driver's salaries, and it ends up being all about lumps of spinning rubber.

As an aside, I grew up in the town where the vulcanization of rubber was invented. My school was located on Rubber Avenue, my aunt lived on Goodyear Avenue. We had a large set of factories in town that produced chemicals used in the production of rubber, and I worked in that company's R&D facilities for a short while. When I was younger it had a "rubber reclaim" facility that melted tires to try to reuse the rubber. You can only imagine what that smelled like! The also manufactured sneakers, tennis shoes, rubber boots, running shoes, etc. Most of the older women in the family worked there sewing shoes all day, unheated in winter and uncooled in summer, till they sent that work down south and then off shore. My dad worked in the chemical operation for over thirty five years. I went to their offices after he died and I really had to ask myself how the bleep he could force himself to work in such a repulsive stench each and every day, and that was long after the reclaim operation was shut down. Ahh, memories...

One can imagine this explains why I dislike the connection to tires, but I think not. It's still frustrating that so much about F1 depends on lumps of rubber. All these strategy decisions depend on such a banal thing. In my mind, it's as if the outcome of the football Champions League depended on what toilet paper the players used.


F1 used to have in race refueling which added another dimension to the races. :D
 
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Dutchy
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sat Dec 11, 2021 9:28 pm

legoguy wrote:
F1 used to have in race refueling which added another dimension to the races. :D


Yes, Max can ask his father how that went.
 
petertenthije
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sat Dec 11, 2021 9:43 pm

Dutchy wrote:
legoguy wrote:
F1 used to have in race refueling which added another dimension to the races. :D


Yes, Max can ask his father how that went.

Yeah, he got a bit hotheaded at Hockenheim 1994.
Also, a very good job of the pit crew. Fire out within just seconds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYndqz5i7mk
 
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zkojq
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Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Dec 12, 2021 4:20 am

scbriml wrote:
zkojq wrote:
Esteban Ocon has outqualified Fernando Alonso 12-10 this season and it's pretty clear that 2021 Alonso is every bit as good as 2006 Alonso. Would someone please remind me who the last teammate to outqualify Fernando Alonso over a season?


I suspect you already know the answer to that question. :rotfl:


:spin: Maaaaybe. All I know is that I was repeatedly assured pre-season that Esteban would be Vandoorned and that it would be his final F1 season. Even a friend who is a Vandoorne fan assured me that Esteban would be Vandoorned even more badly than Vandoorne himself....

scbriml wrote:
After Alonso's much heralded performance in Qatar, his race in Saudi Arabia was a bit of a shocker, tbh.


IMO the main thing is that one of the Alpine Team Principles said after Qatar that they unlocked understanding of the setup about why they weren't getting great hot-weather performance for much of the season. Good news for this race, hopefully.

And shoutout to Alpine for turning the meme into reality.

Image

Seriously though, the future for Alpine is surely bright going into the next era:

- Best Drivers :checkmark:

- Best Livery :checkmark:

- Competent Pitwall :checkmark:

- Harmonious teamwork (inspite of all the speculation that 'toxic Alonso' and 'toxic Ocon' would turn the team into a warzone. :checkmark:

Whilst the overall performance this season has been very average, I don't really think it's been so bad considering they're running a 2019 Chassis and did very little development work (focusing on 2022 car for the new regulations). Lets hope that the lads and lasses at Viry-Chatillon can find a few more horses for next year. :smile:

Revelation wrote:
As a newbie, the fact that so much depends on tires is one of the most unsatisfying aspects of motor sports. Millions of dollars spent on wind tunnels, aerodynamic simulations, carbon fiber structures, driver's salaries, and it ends up being all about lumps of spinning rubber.


My beef regarding tires is entirely to do with how the teams over-coach drivers with regards to managing tire temperatures.

StarAC17 wrote:
I think that is a joke, if it isn't they would have issued an apology.

This is most definitely a troll, probably pointing out the fact that they think Sky is favouring Hamilton.


Sky most definitely do favor Hamilton though and their bias is getting more and more extreme in the past few races. Quite sad considering it's the international broadcaster. Was good to see Nico and Jenson taking Damon Hill to task yesterday.

The ad was very tasteless.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:43 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Dec 12, 2021 5:21 am

petertenthije wrote:
StarAC17 wrote:
petertenthije wrote:
Is this really a Sky Sports advert, or someone playing a joke?
Talk about poor taste!

https://twitter.com/_autohan/status/146 ... verstappen


I think that is a joke, if it isn't they would have issued an apology.

This is most definitely a troll, probably pointing out the fact that they think Sky is favouring Hamilton.

Oops, it’s real. An official apology was issued on the Sky Sports twitter.

https://twitter.com/SkySportsF1/status/ ... 8732448772?


What they should have done was do another ad, this time with Lewis running off the track at Baku. Then it's fair & square!
 
aerosreenivas
Posts: 225
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2007 6:40 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Dec 12, 2021 1:02 pm

Abu Dhabi Grand Prix is few moments away from the start to decide the F1 Champion for 2021.

My heart says 'Lewis Hamilton' will win the record 8th title. But my mind says 'Max Verstappen' based on his current form and consistency.

It is going to be exciting.

Which driver are you all supporting to win the title today?
 
petertenthije
Posts: 4498
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2001 10:00 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Dec 12, 2021 1:09 pm

Leaving the track gaining an advantage anyone?
Ooh well, the race is young.
 
Virtual737
Posts: 1436
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:16 am

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Dec 12, 2021 1:10 pm

I hate to say it but that was Max's corner.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
Posts: 2493
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:43 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Sun Dec 12, 2021 1:13 pm

Sky F1 thinks the situation is similar to Brazil. Are they nuts? Max didn't open such a big gap in Brazil.

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