Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
scbriml
Topic Author
Posts: 20760
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Tue Dec 14, 2021 8:38 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
It's a farce because they cleared Latifi's car in due time and there's a clear track ready for racing.


The farce is ignoring the established processes and rules. If they'd have been followed, all lapped cars would have been allowed to unlap themselves and the SC would have been called in on the following lap. As clearly detailed in the regulations.

The farce is freewheeling the decisions and rules to manufacture a situation where only one driver has a realistic prospect of winning. Following the written rules and finishing the race behind the SC would have given a result that more accurately reflected the 53 laps of racing we did get. How farcical that would have been?

It would only have been farcical in your opinion because of who would have won. :sarcastic:

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
And yes, I chose to ignore your question about Spa simply because it's an irrelevant non sequitur. They tried to make the race work, but it didn't. It's irrelevant to the issue being discussed, and merely you trying to move the goalposts.


Surprised Pikachu face. It's as relevant to the situation as any other race. I'm reasonably certain if Hamilton had been on pole in Spa that you'd be decrying that as a farce as well.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Topic Author
Posts: 20760
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Tue Dec 14, 2021 8:40 am

astuteman wrote:
Question. How would you feel if it were the other way round, and Max was clearly head-and-shoulders ahead, only to have the title handed to Lewis by some last minute deviation from the rules and established practice. Would you still be as happy? Honestly?


We know the answer to that question.
 
Boeing74741R
Posts: 1547
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:44 am

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Tue Dec 14, 2021 9:19 am

scbriml wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Sigh, the weary old reduction to absurdity argument, hoped for better...

I just think their importance should be reduced.


It was actually intended to be a serious question. Let's try it again - how would you reduce the importance of the tyres? Is there any form of motorsport where the tyres are not a vital element? They are the interface between all the millions of £/$/€ you spend on the cars and drivers and the track or road on which you're racing.

Pirelli get a lot of stick from fans for their race tyres. What many fans don't understand, or chose to ignore, is that Pirelli are providing tyres to the specifications given to them by F1. I have no doubt that Pirelli could build a tyre that would allow the drivers to push at 100% for the entire duration of the race. But we would end up in many case with very processional races - imagine a Monaco GP without pit stops. Zzzzz.


I'm sure Pirelli can produce a durable tyre and I agree they are made to a spec. I think most people's gripes is with the spec, but it just so happens to be during the time Pirelli have been the sole supplier. I was frustrated during the first few years of Pirelli as tyre supplier as the races became a case of who can manage the tyres the best and became a primary factor above other factors such as racing. There were also fiascos such as the multiple tyre failures at the 2013 British Grand Prix.

I just hope the new 18" tyres coming for next year are more durable and allow drivers to race hard on them for longer. Obviously not to a point where they have to last the whole race as seen in the 2005 season, but something that's better than now and a lot better than the early part of the previous decade.

scbriml wrote:
Oh, make no mistake about it, he has been slammed a number of times throughout the season. Very often that vitriol has come from fans who feel their driver has been unfairly punished or another driver hasn't been punished for some infraction against their driver (it can get pretty tribal). As an example, Red Bull's principle Christian Horner was very passive-aggressive in bemoaning the loss of the previous Race Director (Charlie Whiting, who was most respected by everyone) after Verstappen received multiple penalties in Saudi Arabia. Fast forward one week and suddenly Michael Masi is back on Horner's christmas card list after Verstappen was pretty much gifted the win in Abu Dhabi.


Personally, I think team principals should be banned from contacting the race director unless they are contacted.

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
You know what, considering the toxicity of the matter (some idiots have gone as far as threatening Latifi to the point that he had to apologize!), I'm going to refrain myself. I've said what I needed to say and I'm not going to add anything more on the matter.


I seem to remember Timo Glock getting some level of abuse after Lewis Hamilton was able to drive by him at the end of the 2008 Brazilian Grand Prix (ignoring the fact it was raining and Glock's tyres were unsuitable for the rainy conditions). Utterly shameful that a minority of people are blaming and abusing drivers for influencing the outcome right at the very end.

astuteman wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
How do you propose to get rid of the sour taste? Give the title to Hamilton? Then Lewis winning it wouldn't leave a sour taste? To me that would leave a shitty taste.


Agree. The genie is well and truly out of the bottle now, and nothing will change that


It would be the wrong decision to strip Verstappen of the title and award it to Hamilton as a result of stewarding errors. What's more likely to occur, if anything, is sanctions against the stewards.

The precedent was the 1998 British Grand Prix when Michael Schumacher won the race, but he was awarded a 10 second stop/go penalty, so as Ferrari's pit box was after the start/finish line they brought him in on the last lap. They did this as Ferrari spotted that the penalty hadn't been awarded within the mandatory timeframe and it wasn't clear if it was a stop/go penalty or 10 seconds were being added to his race time. I also read in a book how Schumacher claimed he didn't see the flags at the time that led to the penalty being awarded. In the end, Schumacher kept his win and the stewards involved no longer stewarded an F1 race again.

Another precedent was the 2007 Brazilian Grand Prix when a few cars that finished ahead of Lewis Hamilton were suspected of having irregular fuel but nothing came of it. Had they been disqualified, Hamilton would have been elevated in the race results and would have won the title instead of Kimi Raikkonen. In the end, nobody was disqualified and McLaren's appeal was rejected.
 
Virtual737
Posts: 1439
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:16 am

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Tue Dec 14, 2021 9:42 am

Boeing74741R wrote:

I'm sure Pirelli can produce a durable tyre and I agree they are made to a spec.


Pirelli were specifically asked to make the tyres as they are (apart potentially from the blow outs). They are performing pretty much exactly as the FIA dictated they should.
 
marcelh
Posts: 1866
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Tue Dec 14, 2021 9:49 am

astuteman wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Max won it fair and square. The only sour taste is being poured on by Hamilton fans who are looking ever more like sore losers.


You should read up a bit more on social media.
The number of Max fans who agree with me that this will leave a sour taste is quite large. And most independents seem to think so too.
This is not just about being a Lewis fanboy :shakehead:


The vast majority of the VER fans really don't care about the "sour taste" you are mentioning. They do acknowledge what HAM has archieved (and will archieve) in F1 and know he was VERY CLOSE to become world champion again. Would it have been the other way around, the HAM fans wouldn't talk about "cheating" or "sour taste".
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 12944
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Tue Dec 14, 2021 10:07 am

marcelh wrote:
astuteman wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Max won it fair and square. The only sour taste is being poured on by Hamilton fans who are looking ever more like sore losers.


You should read up a bit more on social media.
The number of Max fans who agree with me that this will leave a sour taste is quite large. And most independents seem to think so too.
This is not just about being a Lewis fanboy :shakehead:


The vast majority of the VER fans really don't care about the "sour taste" you are mentioning. They do acknowledge what HAM has archieved (and will archieve) in F1 and know he was VERY CLOSE to become world champion again. Would it have been the other way around, the HAM fans wouldn't talk about "cheating" or "sour taste".


I think you are 100% right. This discussion has as much to do with being a fanboy as with facts. I think we can all agree that this season was way too much dependent on the rules and especially how to interpret them. Because it was so close, that this has become such an issue. In my view, Verstappen was the best driver this season and thus is fair that he won the championship, but hey I am a fanboy, so what to expect :D
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 12944
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Tue Dec 14, 2021 10:15 am

Boeing74741R wrote:
It would be the wrong decision to strip Verstappen of the title and award it to Hamilton as a result of stewarding errors. What's more likely to occur, if anything, is sanctions against the stewards.

The precedent was the 1998 British Grand Prix when Michael Schumacher won the race, but he was awarded a 10 second stop/go penalty, so as Ferrari's pit box was after the start/finish line they brought him in on the last lap. They did this as Ferrari spotted that the penalty hadn't been awarded within the mandatory timeframe and it wasn't clear if it was a stop/go penalty or 10 seconds were being added to his race time. I also read in a book how Schumacher claimed he didn't see the flags at the time that led to the penalty being awarded. In the end, Schumacher kept his win and the stewards involved no longer stewarded an F1 race again.

Another precedent was the 2007 Brazilian Grand Prix when a few cars that finished ahead of Lewis Hamilton were suspected of having irregular fuel but nothing came of it. Had they been disqualified, Hamilton would have been elevated in the race results and would have won the title instead of Kimi Raikkonen. In the end, nobody was disqualified and McLaren's appeal was rejected.


Yes, that's just it. If anything the race director made a mistake by not calling for a red flag or not letting the lapped drivers pass sooner. Why punish a driver for that? If anything, the whole race should be scrapped, but then Verstappen still won and all the other drivers gaining points would lose them again. So there is no good solution to this, other than accepting the results and learning from them for next season.

Verstappen and Hamilton are just great drivers and were way better than the rest of the pact. We will see what the new rules will turn out to be with the results of the different teams.
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 4490
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Tue Dec 14, 2021 10:19 am

I think Masi will be gone before next season. He had looked to be a fairly good race director but he has't hasd any challenges till this year and when the shit hits the fan he has been unable to apply consistency and make the calls. After a small amount of controversy during the 2020 Eifel Grand Prix and the time taken over the safety car period he said:
There is a requirement in the sporting regulations to let ALL lapped cars through.


Masi Has put the sport in a situation where there is no good outcome from this. To change the result now is not fair on Max, he should remain as world champion but to fabricate the result wasn't fair on Lewis.

The end of the race was quite fitting in a season where the real racing was dominated by two extremely talented drivers but with actual results dominated by dubious and inconsistent officiating was decided in the cruelest way by poor officiating and decision making by ONE individual who applied a rule inconsistently. It feels life F1 might be being run by Sepp.

When Michael Masi goes in the next couple of months I for one think Nigel Owens should be brought in or at least someone who actually knows the rules of the sport, how to apply them and not be pushed over by wining.

Fred
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 12944
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Tue Dec 14, 2021 11:36 am

My take is, that it is far to easy to blame Michael Masi for everything. There is something wrong in the system if 1 person can make such widely different decissions. So fix the system, not change the person ;-)
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 4490
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

F1 - 2021 Season

Tue Dec 14, 2021 11:37 am

Dutchy wrote:
My take is, that it is far to easy to blame Michael Masi for everything.


It’s always easy to blame someone who’s wrong…


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
User avatar
scbriml
Topic Author
Posts: 20760
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Tue Dec 14, 2021 12:20 pm

Gary Lineker, who tends to have a reasonable take on most things, offers a football analogy:

Image

And in case anyone wants to accuse him of bias (after all, he is English):

Image

Source: twitter.com
 
wirkey
Posts: 26
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:55 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Tue Dec 14, 2021 1:18 pm

scbriml wrote:
Gary Lineker, who tends to have a reasonable take on most things, offers a football analogy:

Image

And in case anyone wants to accuse him of bias (after all, he is English):

Image

Source: twitter.com


You know what be the result of such a decision by the referee? The game would be nullified and replayed, starting with 0-0.

I can't stand both drivers, so I'm not biased in any way.
 
astuteman
Posts: 7578
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Tue Dec 14, 2021 1:29 pm

marcelh wrote:
astuteman wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Max won it fair and square. The only sour taste is being poured on by Hamilton fans who are looking ever more like sore losers.


You should read up a bit more on social media.
The number of Max fans who agree with me that this will leave a sour taste is quite large. And most independents seem to think so too.
This is not just about being a Lewis fanboy :shakehead:


The vast majority of the VER fans really don't care about the "sour taste" you are mentioning. They do acknowledge what HAM has archieved (and will archieve) in F1 and know he was VERY CLOSE to become world champion again. Would it have been the other way around, the HAM fans wouldn't talk about "cheating" or "sour taste".


You're certainly entitled to believe that, but I think you're painting too absolute a picture.
I'll avoid commenting on fans that don't care about the sour taste. The dictionary is available.....

I would still care even if it were the other way around, which nicely disproves your absolute.....
 
User avatar
metalinyoni
Posts: 331
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 8:52 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Tue Dec 14, 2021 6:54 pm

There’s no way you can paint over this decision and hope the rising damp goes away. I hope max gets another shot at a title because whenever people talk about the 2021 title there’ll be a whiff of mould. He deserves better as well.

I really hope Lewis doesn’t throw in the towel and call it quits. I think he deserves 8 titles and it would be fair for him to be remembered that way.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 12944
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Tue Dec 14, 2021 7:09 pm

metalinyoni wrote:
I really hope Lewis doesn’t throw in the towel and call it quits. I think he deserves 8 titles and it would be fair for him to be remembered that way.


I hope he stays if Mercedes is competitive next year, if not, I hope he quits. I don't like what Kimi-Matias Räikkönen has done, driving non-competitive cars in Formula 1, or Fernando Alonso, to name two. Lewis Hamilton is a fantastic driver who deserves a good car.
 
Newark727
Posts: 2897
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:42 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Tue Dec 14, 2021 7:45 pm

As a side note, anyone else a bit disappointed that Checo Perez had to retire? He put on an amazing show holding Lewis off for his teammate, it's a shame that he wasn't rewarded with a points finish.
 
StarAC17
Posts: 4361
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 11:54 am

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Tue Dec 14, 2021 8:42 pm

Dutchy wrote:
metalinyoni wrote:
I really hope Lewis doesn’t throw in the towel and call it quits. I think he deserves 8 titles and it would be fair for him to be remembered that way.


I hope he stays if Mercedes is competitive next year, if not, I hope he quits. I don't like what Kimi-Matias Räikkönen has done, driving non-competitive cars in Formula 1, or Fernando Alonso, to name two. Lewis Hamilton is a fantastic driver who deserves a good car.


If Lewis was demoted to say Williams he would retire. What I could see is Toto not playing favourites, especially if Russell is competitive.

I don't see why the Merc wouldn't be competitive next year. They only did one big round of upgrades at Silverstone and a smaller one at Brazil as I think they did more than just the spicy engine. RB I think put much more into their car in 2021 than Merc did and might start 2022 on the back foot especially if Honda is in fact out, even then I expect RedBull to be competitive also.

Where Mercedes has to worry is Ferrari and McLaren might be right up there fighting at the front and might see 4 teams battling it out instead of two.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Topic Author
Posts: 20760
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Tue Dec 14, 2021 9:17 pm

Newark727 wrote:
As a side note, anyone else a bit disappointed that Checo Perez had to retire? He put on an amazing show holding Lewis off for his teammate, it's a shame that he wasn't rewarded with a points finish.


That was actually a smart tactical decision by Red Bull. Apparently, Perez engine was looking decidedly dodgy and the last thing they wanted (although it would have been amusingly ironic) was for his car to expire on track and ensure the SC ran to the end of the race.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 12944
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Tue Dec 14, 2021 11:58 pm

scbriml wrote:
Newark727 wrote:
As a side note, anyone else a bit disappointed that Checo Perez had to retire? He put on an amazing show holding Lewis off for his teammate, it's a shame that he wasn't rewarded with a points finish.


That was actually a smart tactical decision by Red Bull. Apparently, Perez engine was looking decidedly dodgy and the last thing they wanted (although it would have been amusingly ironic) was for his car to expire on track and ensure the SC ran to the end of the race.


Ah, that was the problem, I was watching with a friend of mine and we couldn't figure out what happened. Would indeed be ironic and the aftermath would be quite damaging. For me, he is the driver of the race. Great teamwork, amazing driving (complaining Louis) and indeed shown great strategy from the pit. Such a shame he didn't finish, brilliant driving. Took seven odd seconds from Hamilton. In the end it didn't matter, but man, F1 at its best.
 
StarAC17
Posts: 4361
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 11:54 am

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Wed Dec 15, 2021 12:11 am

Dutchy wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Newark727 wrote:
As a side note, anyone else a bit disappointed that Checo Perez had to retire? He put on an amazing show holding Lewis off for his teammate, it's a shame that he wasn't rewarded with a points finish.


That was actually a smart tactical decision by Red Bull. Apparently, Perez engine was looking decidedly dodgy and the last thing they wanted (although it would have been amusingly ironic) was for his car to expire on track and ensure the SC ran to the end of the race.


Ah, that was the problem, I was watching with a friend of mine and we couldn't figure out what happened. Would indeed be ironic and the aftermath would be quite damaging. For me, he is the driver of the race. Great teamwork, amazing driving (complaining Louis) and indeed shown great strategy from the pit. Such a shame he didn't finish, brilliant driving. Took seven odd seconds from Hamilton. In the end it didn't matter, but man, F1 at its best.


I think Checo holding up Lewis was massive because if Lewis has those 7 seconds in hand he gets a free stop under the VSC and changes to mediums or fresher hards and might have the free stop under the Safety car.
It makes that one lap sprint much harder for Max and perhaps Lewis holds him off and wins.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Topic Author
Posts: 20760
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Wed Dec 15, 2021 2:16 am

StarAC17 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
scbriml wrote:

That was actually a smart tactical decision by Red Bull. Apparently, Perez engine was looking decidedly dodgy and the last thing they wanted (although it would have been amusingly ironic) was for his car to expire on track and ensure the SC ran to the end of the race.


Ah, that was the problem, I was watching with a friend of mine and we couldn't figure out what happened. Would indeed be ironic and the aftermath would be quite damaging. For me, he is the driver of the race. Great teamwork, amazing driving (complaining Louis) and indeed shown great strategy from the pit. Such a shame he didn't finish, brilliant driving. Took seven odd seconds from Hamilton. In the end it didn't matter, but man, F1 at its best.


I think Checo holding up Lewis was massive because if Lewis has those 7 seconds in hand he gets a free stop under the VSC and changes to mediums or fresher hards and might have the free stop under the Safety car.
It makes that one lap sprint much harder for Max and perhaps Lewis holds him off and wins.


I think, the VSC was irrelevant.

At the end of lap 15 (after he pitted) Hamilton's lead over Verstappen was 5.123s, by the end of lap 19 as he was catching Perez, that lead had grown to 8.718s. By the end of lap 20 after his battle with Perez, the gap was down to 3.662s (a loss of over five seconds). At the end of lap 35 Hamilton's lead was back up to 5.705s, then we had the VSC. So even if we added on the five second lost behind Perez, Hamilton would not have been guaranteed of getting out ahead of Verstappen if he had pitted under the VSC. I suspect that Red Bull would automatically do the opposite to Mercedes. You can argue that on a brand new set of hards, Hamilton would have been significantly faster than Verstappen and could easily have overtaken him. But, it seems Mercedes strategy for the race was really driven by avoiding having to pass Verstappen on track and the obvious risks that involved (thanks to passing on the race start).

Fast forward towards the end... By the end of lap 53, the gap was 15.407s (having come down from 20.225s after Verstappen stopped under the VSC for new hards). IMHO, this is where the time lost behind Perez hurt Hamilton - even with an extra three or four seconds, Hamilton could probably have pitted and got back out ahead of Verstappen (assuming in those circumstances, Verstappen wouldn't have stopped). It would have been quite tight and would have put huge pressure on the pit crew. Mercedes are quite a conservative team and it would have been a very brave decision to risk giving up track position.

All data from https://www.racefans.net/2021/12/12/202 ... and-tyres/
 
yonahleung
Posts: 126
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:55 am

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Wed Dec 15, 2021 2:37 am

scbriml wrote:
StarAC17 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Ah, that was the problem, I was watching with a friend of mine and we couldn't figure out what happened. Would indeed be ironic and the aftermath would be quite damaging. For me, he is the driver of the race. Great teamwork, amazing driving (complaining Louis) and indeed shown great strategy from the pit. Such a shame he didn't finish, brilliant driving. Took seven odd seconds from Hamilton. In the end it didn't matter, but man, F1 at its best.


I think Checo holding up Lewis was massive because if Lewis has those 7 seconds in hand he gets a free stop under the VSC and changes to mediums or fresher hards and might have the free stop under the Safety car.
It makes that one lap sprint much harder for Max and perhaps Lewis holds him off and wins.


I think, the VSC was irrelevant.

At the end of lap 15 (after he pitted) Hamilton's lead over Verstappen was 5.123s, by the end of lap 19 as he was catching Perez, that lead had grown to 8.718s. By the end of lap 20 after his battle with Perez, the gap was down to 3.662s (a loss of over five seconds). At the end of lap 35 Hamilton's lead was back up to 5.705s, then we had the VSC. So even if we added on the five second lost behind Perez, Hamilton would not have been guaranteed of getting out ahead of Verstappen if he had pitted under the VSC. I suspect that Red Bull would automatically do the opposite to Mercedes. You can argue that on a brand new set of hards, Hamilton would have been significantly faster than Verstappen and could easily have overtaken him. But, it seems Mercedes strategy for the race was really driven by avoiding having to pass Verstappen on track and the obvious risks that involved (thanks to passing on the race start).

Fast forward towards the end... By the end of lap 53, the gap was 15.407s (having come down from 20.225s after Verstappen stopped under the VSC for new hards). IMHO, this is where the time lost behind Perez hurt Hamilton - even with an extra three or four seconds, Hamilton could probably have pitted and got back out ahead of Verstappen (assuming in those circumstances, Verstappen wouldn't have stopped). It would have been quite tight and would have put huge pressure on the pit crew. Mercedes are quite a conservative team and it would have been a very brave decision to risk giving up track position.

All data from https://www.racefans.net/2021/12/12/202 ... and-tyres/

So afterall, the 5 seconds holdup by Perez narrowed down Merc's options so much that Hamilton simply did not have the option of getting a new set of tyres. It is a bit ironic that sometimes being in front in track position narrows down your options so much that you end up losing the race on the wrong pit call. (e.g. Norris in Sochi)
 
StarAC17
Posts: 4361
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 11:54 am

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Wed Dec 15, 2021 5:08 am

yonahleung wrote:
scbriml wrote:
StarAC17 wrote:

I think Checo holding up Lewis was massive because if Lewis has those 7 seconds in hand he gets a free stop under the VSC and changes to mediums or fresher hards and might have the free stop under the Safety car.
It makes that one lap sprint much harder for Max and perhaps Lewis holds him off and wins.


I think, the VSC was irrelevant.

At the end of lap 15 (after he pitted) Hamilton's lead over Verstappen was 5.123s, by the end of lap 19 as he was catching Perez, that lead had grown to 8.718s. By the end of lap 20 after his battle with Perez, the gap was down to 3.662s (a loss of over five seconds). At the end of lap 35 Hamilton's lead was back up to 5.705s, then we had the VSC. So even if we added on the five second lost behind Perez, Hamilton would not have been guaranteed of getting out ahead of Verstappen if he had pitted under the VSC. I suspect that Red Bull would automatically do the opposite to Mercedes. You can argue that on a brand new set of hards, Hamilton would have been significantly faster than Verstappen and could easily have overtaken him. But, it seems Mercedes strategy for the race was really driven by avoiding having to pass Verstappen on track and the obvious risks that involved (thanks to passing on the race start).

Fast forward towards the end... By the end of lap 53, the gap was 15.407s (having come down from 20.225s after Verstappen stopped under the VSC for new hards). IMHO, this is where the time lost behind Perez hurt Hamilton - even with an extra three or four seconds, Hamilton could probably have pitted and got back out ahead of Verstappen (assuming in those circumstances, Verstappen wouldn't have stopped). It would have been quite tight and would have put huge pressure on the pit crew. Mercedes are quite a conservative team and it would have been a very brave decision to risk giving up track position.

All data from https://www.racefans.net/2021/12/12/202 ... and-tyres/

So afterall, the 5 seconds holdup by Perez narrowed down Merc's options so much that Hamilton simply did not have the option of getting a new set of tyres. It is a bit ironic that sometimes being in front in track position narrows down your options so much that you end up losing the race on the wrong pit call. (e.g. Norris in Sochi)


It happened a few times this year.
Happened to Max in Barcelona and Lewis in France, and nearly happened to Max at COTA.

Hopefully the cars will be closer next year that the top teams won't get the free stop as easily. Although there is a lot of excitement when an extra stop is taken.
 
marcelh
Posts: 1866
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Wed Dec 15, 2021 6:27 am

StarAC17 wrote:
Hopefully the cars will be closer next year that the top teams won't get the free stop as easily. Although there is a lot of excitement when an extra stop is taken.



The reason a free stop was important is because you didn’t get stuck behind a car which was difficult/impossible to overtake (by the nature of the car). With the new cars, driving close behind each other will be easier and thus overtaking will be easier. I hope to see a lot of close racing and overtaking - which will also bring a lot of controversy when it goes wrong and ends in tears. So I don’t think F1 will be boring…. :bouncy:
 
marcelh
Posts: 1866
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Wed Dec 15, 2021 6:56 am

astuteman wrote:
marcelh wrote:
astuteman wrote:

You should read up a bit more on social media.
The number of Max fans who agree with me that this will leave a sour taste is quite large. And most independents seem to think so too.
This is not just about being a Lewis fanboy :shakehead:


The vast majority of the VER fans really don't care about the "sour taste" you are mentioning. They do acknowledge what HAM has archieved (and will archieve) in F1 and know he was VERY CLOSE to become world champion again. Would it have been the other way around, the HAM fans wouldn't talk about "cheating" or "sour taste".


You're certainly entitled to believe that, but I think you're painting too absolute a picture.


You just underestimate the MAX-factor/MAX-mania in the Netherlands. It isn’t equal to the “it’s coming home” adoration of the English football team during the summer, but it’s getting close. Over 1 in 3 of the population watched the race in Abu Dhabi, a huge record for this sport. The -very biased and chauvinistic- orange army has discovered F1 and they aren’t interested if cars had to take over before restarting the race or not. VER #1 is only what’s important.
 
yonahleung
Posts: 126
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:55 am

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Wed Dec 15, 2021 7:23 am

marcelh wrote:
StarAC17 wrote:
Hopefully the cars will be closer next year that the top teams won't get the free stop as easily. Although there is a lot of excitement when an extra stop is taken.



The reason a free stop was important is because you didn’t get stuck behind a car which was difficult/impossible to overtake (by the nature of the car). With the new cars, driving close behind each other will be easier and thus overtaking will be easier. I hope to see a lot of close racing and overtaking - which will also bring a lot of controversy when it goes wrong and ends in tears. So I don’t think F1 will be boring…. :bouncy:

This sounds oddly familiar to Indycar...coincidence?
 
User avatar
notaxonrotax
Posts: 1348
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2011 2:29 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Wed Dec 15, 2021 8:17 am

marcelh wrote:
notaxonrotax wrote:
marcelh wrote:
When HAM will become world champion, the stench of cheating by pushing his rival off the track at Silverstone will never disappear..


How`s the stench now?

No Tax On Rotax


If he hadn’t pushed VER off the track, VER probably would have become world champion without all the drama and controversy we saw yesterday…..


Now hang on, so you automatically assume that VER would have won in Silverstone!??
And taken the fastest lap as well, while we are at it???
Why not? If you are wearing orange glasses, you may as well go for the thickest type of glass.

You can`t honestly tell me that VER`s World Championship is "stench free".....to use your words.
The free points that were awarded for NOT racing at Spa made quite an impact as well, just to give you an example.....
Some strange decisions were taken this year....

No Tax On Rotax
 
User avatar
TheFlyingDisk
Posts: 2502
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:43 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Wed Dec 15, 2021 8:25 am

notaxonrotax wrote:
marcelh wrote:
notaxonrotax wrote:

How`s the stench now?

No Tax On Rotax


If he hadn’t pushed VER off the track, VER probably would have become world champion without all the drama and controversy we saw yesterday…..


Now hang on, so you automatically assume that VER would have won in Silverstone!??
And taken the fastest lap as well, while we are at it???
Why not? If you are wearing orange glasses, you may as well go for the thickest type of glass.

You can`t honestly tell me that VER`s World Championship is "stench free".....to use your words.
The free points that were awarded for NOT racing at Spa made quite an impact as well, just to give you an example.....
Some strange decisions were taken this year....

No Tax On Rotax


Verstappen wouldn't need to win Silverstone. Had he finished second, with all else being equal up to Saudi Arabia, and giving Lewis the win in Abu Dhabi and Max in second, he would have finished the championship with a 12 point lead. Just goes to show that Silverstone had a huge impact on the championship, as Lewis was able to take out a huge chunk of Max's lead. I don't recall the lead ever being that big ever again.

As for Spa, the "free" points only gave Max a 1 point lead. Lewis took 41 points out of Max in the previous two races.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Topic Author
Posts: 20760
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Wed Dec 15, 2021 9:15 am

marcelh wrote:
StarAC17 wrote:
Hopefully the cars will be closer next year that the top teams won't get the free stop as easily. Although there is a lot of excitement when an extra stop is taken.



The reason a free stop was important is because you didn’t get stuck behind a car which was difficult/impossible to overtake (by the nature of the car). With the new cars, driving close behind each other will be easier and thus overtaking will be easier. I hope to see a lot of close racing and overtaking - which will also bring a lot of controversy when it goes wrong and ends in tears. So I don’t think F1 will be boring…. :bouncy:


Call me a cynic, but I'll believe the whole "closer racing" hype when I actually see it.
 
marcelh
Posts: 1866
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Wed Dec 15, 2021 10:20 am

scbriml wrote:
marcelh wrote:
StarAC17 wrote:
Hopefully the cars will be closer next year that the top teams won't get the free stop as easily. Although there is a lot of excitement when an extra stop is taken.



The reason a free stop was important is because you didn’t get stuck behind a car which was difficult/impossible to overtake (by the nature of the car). With the new cars, driving close behind each other will be easier and thus overtaking will be easier. I hope to see a lot of close racing and overtaking - which will also bring a lot of controversy when it goes wrong and ends in tears. So I don’t think F1 will be boring…. :bouncy:


Call me a cynic, but I'll believe the whole "closer racing" hype when I actually see it.


I'm trying to be optimistic and look forward to see a fight between 4-5 drivers who will become first.
 
marcelh
Posts: 1866
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Wed Dec 15, 2021 10:47 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
notaxonrotax wrote:
marcelh wrote:

If he hadn’t pushed VER off the track, VER probably would have become world champion without all the drama and controversy we saw yesterday…..


Now hang on, so you automatically assume that VER would have won in Silverstone!??
And taken the fastest lap as well, while we are at it???
Why not? If you are wearing orange glasses, you may as well go for the thickest type of glass.

You can`t honestly tell me that VER`s World Championship is "stench free".....to use your words.
The free points that were awarded for NOT racing at Spa made quite an impact as well, just to give you an example.....
Some strange decisions were taken this year....

No Tax On Rotax


Verstappen wouldn't need to win Silverstone. Had he finished second, with all else being equal up to Saudi Arabia, and giving Lewis the win in Abu Dhabi and Max in second, he would have finished the championship with a 12 point lead. Just goes to show that Silverstone had a huge impact on the championship, as Lewis was able to take out a huge chunk of Max's lead. I don't recall the lead ever being that big ever again.

As for Spa, the "free" points only gave Max a 1 point lead. Lewis took 41 points out of Max in the previous two races.


:checkmark:
@NTOR:
IMHO VER his World Championship is "stench free". You can blame him for the crash at Monza, but we can also blame BOT for actually kicking out RBR at the Hungaroring. VER his driving style is agressive, but as long the stewards have the opinion it's OK, it's allowed. The issue is the stewards aren't always consistent, but you can't blame VER for it.
 
petertenthije
Posts: 4503
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2001 10:00 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Wed Dec 15, 2021 11:32 am

marcelh wrote:
IMHO VER his World Championship is "stench free".
This website has compiled the stats for the 2021 season.

https://www.givemesport.com/1802358-max ... rved-title

For all stats Max is ahead. Only exceptions are the number of fastest laps (tie) and the number of KMs raced. The latter of course due to Max having a few DNF's, in part caused by Mercedes.

To be fair, Max probably did not deserve to win Abu Dhabi as Hamilton was on fire. But looking at the whole season: Max is very much the deserved winner.


Wins 2021
Max 10, Lewis 8

Pole positions
Max 10, Lewis 5

Fastest laps
Lewis and Max tied at 6

Podiums
Max 18, Lewis 17

Laps led
Max 652, Lewis 297

KM led
Max 2.989, Lewis 1.582

KM raced
Max 5.908, Lewis 6.250
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 27445
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Wed Dec 15, 2021 6:00 pm

Sorry for the delayed responses, hopefully they are still relevant.

astuteman wrote:
Just worth pointing out perhaps that one of the key differentiators for drivers such as Lewis Hamilton and Sergio Perez is their ability to be "in tune" with the vehicle to an extent that allows them to be fast whilst still protecting their tyres better than other drivers.
Reference Turkish GP last year.
I also think that this was one of the key aspects of Hamilton's drive yesterday - to be so fast even on tyres that were getting older.

It gets farcical when you you've got one lap to race, with one guy on the fastest tyre with no wear, and the other on the slowest tyre with 40 laps of wear on it.
Verstappen showed in qualifying that he was 0.35 sec faster than Hamilton over 1 lap on fresh soft tyres.
As the race progressed though, that advantage diminished rapidly, as we saw when he put the fresh hard tyres on during the VSC.

F1 is a bit like cricket IMO - it can be a lot more nuanced than it appears on the surface..

Rgds

Thanks for pointing out the nuance. As I said to StarAC17 I do sincerely hope to get more in tune with the subtleties and find an appreciation for this element of the sport since there's no evidence of the sport changing on my behalf.

As for the race, I also wonder why the huge lead LH built up over the entire race just disappears in the restart process. It hardly seems fair. A random thing such as a crash by a third party deep in the pack should not have changed things so much. Might as well decide the outcome on a coin flip. I know, this is the way we've always done it, yada yada, but never too late to rethink some things in the hopes of a better future.

iMO the outcome we got in the end seems to be acceptable given the back and forth of the season, but not satisfying.

scbriml wrote:
Let's try it again - how would you reduce the importance of the tyres? Is there any form of motorsport where the tyres are not a vital element? They are the interface between all the millions of £/$/€ you spend on the cars and drivers and the track or road on which you're racing.

Pirelli get a lot of stick from fans for their race tyres. What many fans don't understand, or chose to ignore, is that Pirelli are providing tyres to the specifications given to them by F1. I have no doubt that Pirelli could build a tyre that would allow the drivers to push at 100% for the entire duration of the race. But we would end up in many case with very processional races - imagine a Monaco GP without pit stops. Zzzzz.

As mentioned, I don't know how it would be done. It was mentioned that tires once did last the entire race, but as you say, that could mean some races become boring. It seems a course that allows for no passing is a bigger problem, that simply is not a race then, is it?

scbriml wrote:
Oh, make no mistake about it, he has been slammed a number of times throughout the season. Very often that vitriol has come from fans who feel their driver has been unfairly punished or another driver hasn't been punished for some infraction against their driver (it can get pretty tribal). As an example, Red Bull's principle Christian Horner was very passive-aggressive in bemoaning the loss of the previous Race Director (Charlie Whiting, who was most respected by everyone) after Verstappen received multiple penalties in Saudi Arabia. Fast forward one week and suddenly Michael Masi is back on Horner's christmas card list after Verstappen was pretty much gifted the win in Abu Dhabi.

There have been some very interesting interpretations of the regulations as we've progressed through the season. Probably the worst example, which left every driver except one scratching their heads, was the Brazil "decision" (it was really a non-decision) that forcing your opponent 25m off-track was perfectly acceptable and didn't even need to be investigated. There have been multiple instances, especially as we've gotten to the sharp end of the season, where decisions taken by Race Control or the stewards seem to have been taken with the end result in mind. Which really shouldn't be the case.

Pretty much every sport has rules and officials to enforce them, and that introduces the human element. The main thing fans want is consistency. I'm not sure we're getting that. Also, more than a few comments I've read here and elsewhere suggest the restart was Masi making up rules on the fly which IMO is a terrible look, something that should result in a serious review of job performance.

flipdewaf wrote:
I think Masi will be gone before next season. He had looked to be a fairly good race director but he has't hasd any challenges till this year and when the shit hits the fan he has been unable to apply consistency and make the calls. After a small amount of controversy during the 2020 Eifel Grand Prix and the time taken over the safety car period he said:
There is a requirement in the sporting regulations to let ALL lapped cars through.


Masi Has put the sport in a situation where there is no good outcome from this. To change the result now is not fair on Max, he should remain as world champion but to fabricate the result wasn't fair on Lewis.

The end of the race was quite fitting in a season where the real racing was dominated by two extremely talented drivers but with actual results dominated by dubious and inconsistent officiating was decided in the cruelest way by poor officiating and decision making by ONE individual who applied a rule inconsistently. It feels life F1 might be being run by Sepp.

When Michael Masi goes in the next couple of months I for one think Nigel Owens should be brought in or at least someone who actually knows the rules of the sport, how to apply them and not be pushed over by wining.

Very well said. I also agree with the idea posted earlier that there should not be as much "chirping" on the radio from teams to the race director and stewards. It's a bad look for the sport. The wailing/pleading tone of Toto's voice was designed to pressure Masi, IMO. Glad in this case he pushed back to resist such a display, but unfortunately in this case Masi was in the wrong for making up rules on the fly.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 12944
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Wed Dec 15, 2021 6:31 pm

petertenthije wrote:
Wins 2021
Max 10, Lewis 8

Pole positions
Max 10, Lewis 5

Fastest laps
Lewis and Max tied at 6

Podiums
Max 18, Lewis 17

Laps led
Max 652, Lewis 297

KM led
Max 2.989, Lewis 1.582

KM raced
Max 5.908, Lewis 6.250


Those are amazing stats indeed> This caught my eye: when Max was racing, he raced Max 50,6% of the distance ahead of the pack, and Lewis 25,3%. That is quite a difference, I must say.
 
astuteman
Posts: 7578
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Wed Dec 15, 2021 7:16 pm

marcelh wrote:
astuteman wrote:
marcelh wrote:

The vast majority of the VER fans really don't care about the "sour taste" you are mentioning. They do acknowledge what HAM has archieved (and will archieve) in F1 and know he was VERY CLOSE to become world champion again. Would it have been the other way around, the HAM fans wouldn't talk about "cheating" or "sour taste".


You're certainly entitled to believe that, but I think you're painting too absolute a picture.


You just underestimate the MAX-factor/MAX-mania in the Netherlands. It isn’t equal to the “it’s coming home” adoration of the English football team during the summer, but it’s getting close. Over 1 in 3 of the population watched the race in Abu Dhabi, a huge record for this sport. The -very biased and chauvinistic- orange army has discovered F1 and they aren’t interested if cars had to take over before restarting the race or not. VER #1 is only what’s important.


A fair point.
I did wonder if your "The vast majority of the VER fans" should have read "the vast majority of the VER fans in the Netherlands" ... :)
I get that completely - especially after a decade or more of German/British dominance.
It's probably true to say that most of the articles/news feeds etc that I read contain comments from VER fans that are probably British (and yes, there are lots of them - we're not all bigots :) ).
And I guess they probably wouldn't necessarily exhibit the same level of euphoria.

I meant what I said though.
I totally get that having the same team win for a long time can get tedious.
But it has happened in just about every sport imaginable.
And like every empire, those phases come to an end when the competition drives others to the same level (Like Red Bull and Max)
I am horribly fearful that Liberty Media (emphasised) will turn F1 into a farcical race for ratings at any cost to the sport.
Don't like it at all.
And would feel the same if Max had been walking it on Sunday, and then had the almost inevitable win overturned in the same way.

Still. Max is officially the Champ. Enjoy. :)

Rgds
 
StarAC17
Posts: 4361
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 11:54 am

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Wed Dec 15, 2021 8:13 pm

Revelation wrote:

As for the race, I also wonder why the huge lead LH built up over the entire race just disappears in the restart process. It hardly seems fair. A random thing such as a crash by a third party deep in the pack should not have changed things so much. Might as well decide the outcome on a coin flip. I know, this is the way we've always done it, yada yada, but never too late to rethink some things in the hopes of a better future.



All driver's and teams know this can happen and its acceptable circumstance with F1 racing. Lewis benefited from the in Imola when he actually shouldn't have been on the podium. A crash caused a red-flag and he could get his car repaired and tyres changed. He went from 9th to 2nd in one of the best races of the year. He was also saved in Silverstone after a crash he was blamed for with a red flag.

The issue with this isn't the safety car in question (I still think with the amount of laps left, red flag it to save face) but how the procedure was handled. The lapped cars should have used the final lap to join the back of the pack and the race ends on the safety car. Or Max has to pass 5 drivers (who will get out of the way) to catch Lewis. Also had the been done by the book, Carlos Sainz would be right behind Max and could have challenged him for second.

Revelation wrote:
As mentioned, I don't know how it would be done. It was mentioned that tires once did last the entire race, but as you say, that could mean some races become boring. It seems a course that allows for no passing is a bigger problem, that simply is not a race then, is it?



There is no doubt that in some races you could get by on one set but the rule to use two compounds makes it really interesting and strategy comes into effect.

You could have mediums or hards in Monaco and do the whole race but please don't allow that. Undercuts and Overcuts are the only excitement Monaco provides. Until the production crew doesn't show it :hissyfit: :hissyfit: .

Ocon did it in Turkey this year because in wet races you don't have to change tyres. Lewis thought he could do the same but that wasn't successful.

Revelation wrote:
Very well said. I also agree with the idea posted earlier that there should not be as much "chirping" on the radio from teams to the race director and stewards. It's a bad look for the sport. The wailing/pleading tone of Toto's voice was designed to pressure Masi, IMO. Glad in this case he pushed back to resist such a display, but unfortunately in this case Masi was in the wrong for making up rules on the fly.


You are from North America and the chriping is fine but what Masi or whoever replaces him should be able to do is toss the team principle out of the paddock for constant arguing. Similar to how in North American sports the coach can be tossed. Or perhaps both drivers face grid penalties for the following races if there is incessant arguing.

In all honesty if the worst that Masi is getting is what we hear on the broadcast then that's not bad. I can't imagine what is said in other sports.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 12944
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Wed Dec 15, 2021 8:54 pm

A well-deserved knighthood for sir Lewis.

Image

link
 
User avatar
scbriml
Topic Author
Posts: 20760
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Wed Dec 15, 2021 11:54 pm

The FIA has issued a statement on the events that unfolded at the end of the Abu Dhabi GP.

https://www.fia.com/news/statement-fia- ... rt-council
The 2021 FIA Formula 1 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix, has prompted a large number of reactions from the F1 community and from motor sport in general, as well as in the public.

The FIA’s primary responsibility at any event is to ensure the safety of everyone involved and the integrity of the sport.

The circumstances surrounding the use of the Safety Car following the incident of driver Nicholas Latifi, and the related communications between the FIA Race Direction team and the Formula 1 teams, have notably generated significant misunderstanding and reactions from Formula 1 teams, drivers and fans, an argument that is currently tarnishing the image of the Championship and the due celebration of the first Drivers' World Championship title won by Max Verstappen and the eighth consecutive Constructors' World Championship title won by Mercedes.

Following the presentation of a report regarding the sequence of events that took place following the incident on Lap 53 of the Grand Prix and in a constant drive for improvement, the FIA President proposed to the World Motor Sport Council that a detailed analysis and clarification exercise for the future with all relevant parties will now take place.

This matter will be discussed and addressed with all the teams and drivers to draw any lessons from this situation and clarity to be provided to the participants, media, and fans about the current regulations to preserve the competitive nature of our sport while ensuring the safety of the drivers and officials. It is not only Formula 1 that may benefit from this analysis, but also more generally all the other FIA circuit championships.

Following that presentation and an extensive discussion, the World Council has decided to unanimously support the President’s proposal.

The FIA will therefore do its utmost to have this in motion within the Formula 1 governance and will propose to the Formula 1 Commission to give a clear mandate for study and proposal to the Sporting Advisory Committee, with the support of Formula 1 drivers, so that any identified meaningful feedback and conclusions be made before the beginning of the 2022 season.


Aside from the frankly insulting tone of the statement, it seems that the FIA's self-proclaimed integrity doesn't go as far as actually releasing the report on which this statement is based. Why am I not surprised?

This word salad is clearly intended to try and persuade Mercedes to drop their appeal against the Abu Dhabi GP result. Lots of wooly words and very little substance other than a vague commitment to "do its utmost". I believe Mercedes has until around 19:00GMT to confirm or withdraw their appeal - just about the same time as the FIA's Grand Gala to crown all their champions starts. Sounds like a script for another Netflix episode.
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 4490
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Thu Dec 16, 2021 8:03 am

scbriml wrote:
The FIA has issued a statement on the events that unfolded at the end of the Abu Dhabi GP.

https://www.fia.com/news/statement-fia- ... rt-council
The 2021 FIA Formula 1 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix, has prompted a large number of reactions from the F1 community and from motor sport in general, as well as in the public.

The FIA’s primary responsibility at any event is to ensure the safety of everyone involved and the integrity of the sport.

The circumstances surrounding the use of the Safety Car following the incident of driver Nicholas Latifi, and the related communications between the FIA Race Direction team and the Formula 1 teams, have notably generated significant misunderstanding and reactions from Formula 1 teams, drivers and fans, an argument that is currently tarnishing the image of the Championship and the due celebration of the first Drivers' World Championship title won by Max Verstappen and the eighth consecutive Constructors' World Championship title won by Mercedes.

Following the presentation of a report regarding the sequence of events that took place following the incident on Lap 53 of the Grand Prix and in a constant drive for improvement, the FIA President proposed to the World Motor Sport Council that a detailed analysis and clarification exercise for the future with all relevant parties will now take place.

This matter will be discussed and addressed with all the teams and drivers to draw any lessons from this situation and clarity to be provided to the participants, media, and fans about the current regulations to preserve the competitive nature of our sport while ensuring the safety of the drivers and officials. It is not only Formula 1 that may benefit from this analysis, but also more generally all the other FIA circuit championships.

Following that presentation and an extensive discussion, the World Council has decided to unanimously support the President’s proposal.

The FIA will therefore do its utmost to have this in motion within the Formula 1 governance and will propose to the Formula 1 Commission to give a clear mandate for study and proposal to the Sporting Advisory Committee, with the support of Formula 1 drivers, so that any identified meaningful feedback and conclusions be made before the beginning of the 2022 season.


Aside from the frankly insulting tone of the statement, it seems that the FIA's self-proclaimed integrity doesn't go as far as actually releasing the report on which this statement is based. Why am I not surprised?

This word salad is clearly intended to try and persuade Mercedes to drop their appeal against the Abu Dhabi GP result. Lots of wooly words and very little substance other than a vague commitment to "do its utmost". I believe Mercedes has until around 19:00GMT to confirm or withdraw their appeal - just about the same time as the FIA's Grand Gala to crown all their champions starts. Sounds like a script for another Netflix episode.

What a lot of lawyered up nothing trying to make themselves feel better.

I will read through it more thoroughly later on my break and try to understand what it might actually be saying.

It reminds me of a slightly narcissistic boss I once had who sent me and email one day that started “I have had a conversation with myself and I have decided the company would like you to…”

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Boeing74741R
Posts: 1547
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:44 am

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Thu Dec 16, 2021 9:15 am

I know it's the Daily Mail, but they're running with a story that Mercedes will not appeal after all, with Hamilton reportedly stating he does not to win a title through the courts: -

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/formu ... e-win.html

We'll see what happens over the next 9-10hrs.
 
User avatar
TheFlyingDisk
Posts: 2502
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:43 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Thu Dec 16, 2021 10:41 am

Boeing74741R wrote:
I know it's the Daily Mail, but they're running with a story that Mercedes will not appeal after all, with Hamilton reportedly stating he does not to win a title through the courts: -

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/formu ... e-win.html

We'll see what happens over the next 9-10hrs.


Confirmed since it's reported on the official F1 website.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... sTX4w.html
 
Boeing74741R
Posts: 1547
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:44 am

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Thu Dec 16, 2021 1:33 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Boeing74741R wrote:
I know it's the Daily Mail, but they're running with a story that Mercedes will not appeal after all, with Hamilton reportedly stating he does not to win a title through the courts: -

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/formu ... e-win.html

We'll see what happens over the next 9-10hrs.


Confirmed since it's reported on the official F1 website.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... sTX4w.html


As much as Hamilton/Mercedes fans will be disappointed by Mercedes' decision to not pursue this, it's probably for the best.

I was also concerned about what sort of precedent a Mercedes victory in court would set for the future. The prospect of more sporting outcomes being decided in the courts instead of on the track/pitch/course etc. is not nice as it would have given teams and competitors an incentive to go to court every time something didn't go their way. Now is the time for a line to be drawn under this season and look forward to next season.

That said, there's one question outstanding. Apart from his trip to Windsor Castle yesterday to be knighted by Prince Charles, Sir Lewis Hamilton has made no public appearance or statement since the immediate post-race interview and the podium ceremony and missed the press conference afterwards, and Toto Wolff indicated in his press conference earlier he hopes Hamilton will continue to race. So will he be on the grid in Bahrain in car number 44 next season?
 
User avatar
TheFlyingDisk
Posts: 2502
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:43 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Thu Dec 16, 2021 1:51 pm

Boeing74741R wrote:
That said, there's one question outstanding. Apart from his trip to Windsor Castle yesterday to be knighted by Prince Charles, Sir Lewis Hamilton has made no public appearance or statement since the immediate post-race interview and the podium ceremony and missed the press conference afterwards, and Toto Wolff indicated in his press conference earlier he hopes Hamilton will continue to race. So will he be on the grid in Bahrain in car number 44 next season?


Ayrton Senna thought about quitting after the debacle in 1989. And yet he returned. No reason why Lewis won't return for 2022 - although in all honesty, his retirement will not be a big loss because I believe the baton has been passed to the new generation - Russell, Verstappen, Leclerc & Norris.
 
StarAC17
Posts: 4361
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 11:54 am

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Thu Dec 16, 2021 3:31 pm

Boeing74741R wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Boeing74741R wrote:
I know it's the Daily Mail, but they're running with a story that Mercedes will not appeal after all, with Hamilton reportedly stating he does not to win a title through the courts: -

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/formu ... e-win.html

We'll see what happens over the next 9-10hrs.


Confirmed since it's reported on the official F1 website.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... sTX4w.html


As much as Hamilton/Mercedes fans will be disappointed by Mercedes' decision to not pursue this, it's probably for the best.

I was also concerned about what sort of precedent a Mercedes victory in court would set for the future. The prospect of more sporting outcomes being decided in the courts instead of on the track/pitch/course etc. is not nice as it would have given teams and competitors an incentive to go to court every time something didn't go their way. Now is the time for a line to be drawn under this season and look forward to next season.

That said, there's one question outstanding. Apart from his trip to Windsor Castle yesterday to be knighted by Prince Charles, Sir Lewis Hamilton has made no public appearance or statement since the immediate post-race interview and the podium ceremony and missed the press conference afterwards, and Toto Wolff indicated in his press conference earlier he hopes Hamilton will continue to race. So will he be on the grid in Bahrain in car number 44 next season?


I think there is a good chance he might walk away from F1. I don't want him to as I still think he is the best driver out there but I know Lewis struggles with mental health issues and he might not have the fight left.

https://the-race.com/formula-1/wolff-ho ... y-from-f1/
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 4490
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Thu Dec 16, 2021 4:36 pm

https://www.fia.com/news/statement-fia- ... rt-council

The world watched every race with great anticipation, knowing that in the end, there could only be one winner. In this respect, many praised Max Verstappen for his victory, and Lewis Hamilton for his remarkable performance and sportsmanship after the closing event of the season.

The 2021 FIA Formula 1 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix, has prompted a large number of reactions from the F1 community and from motor sport in general, as well as in the public.

The FIA’s primary responsibility at any event is to ensure the safety of everyone involved and the integrity of the sport.


integrity - the quality of being honest and having strong moral principles.

The circumstances surrounding the use of the Safety Car following the incident of driver Nicholas Latifi,

Why on earth is it necessary to mention his name? I hope people don't think he has any part to play in the IFA antics. He has already been the target of threats for this. FFS FIA.

and the related communications between the FIA Race Direction team and the Formula 1 teams, have notably generated significant misunderstanding and reactions from Formula 1 teams, drivers and fans,

Note that they leave themselves out of the misunderstanding, those who have been seen to be a significant part of this already this season.

an argument that is currently tarnishing the image of the Championship

AND THE FIA, you see they forgot themselves here, they look like the biggest fools

and the due celebration of the first Drivers' World Championship title won by Max Verstappen and the eighth consecutive Constructors' World Championship title won by Mercedes.

The actions of the race director had no impact on the constructors championship win by Mercedes, to bring this up appears to be drawing a false equivalence that action against the decision hampers both things equally. Poor show.

Following the presentation of a report regarding the sequence of events that took place following the incident on Lap 53 of the Grand Prix and in a constant drive for improvement, the FIA President proposed to the World Motor Sport Council that a detailed analysis and clarification exercise for the future with all relevant parties will now take place.

"after marking our own homework we found it was correct, we promise we did good work and we will mark our own homework again for other people to see. Those other people are definitely relevant, but we wont specify who they are.

This matter will be discussed and addressed with all the teams and drivers to draw any lessons from this situation and clarity to be provided to the participants, media, and fans about the current regulations to preserve the competitive nature of our sport while ensuring the safety of the drivers and officials.

"We will talk about it with people and and then decide where to attribute what we wanted to do already to the statements that are now on record to make it look like we listened." " clarity will be provided, like we already did do after the eifel 2020 GP and then ignored and did something different, you know integrity"

It is not only Formula 1 that may benefit from this analysis, but also more generally all the other FIA circuit championships.

oh how generous of you!

Following that presentation and an extensive discussion, the World Council has decided to unanimously support the President’s proposal.

So the person in charge of the people who marked their own homework agrees that the homework was correct.

The FIA will therefore do its utmost to have this in motion within the Formula 1 governance and will propose to the Formula 1 Commission to give a clear mandate for study and proposal to the Sporting Advisory Committee, with the support of Formula 1 drivers, so that any identified meaningful feedback and conclusions be made before the beginning of the 2022 season.


"we will therefore definitely try to make a thing start by proposing that we do something that is clear (but not clear enough to tell anyone what it is) and make a proposal to do that to some people who can advise but have no authority. We did ascribe statements to drivers though so we can make sure that it looks legit "best rule since waiting for the green light before going, 3 stars: Leclerc".

Luckily all of this making a plan to decide that someone can advise on whether they think their own answer was correct will be done before the new season so we can all rest assured that the matter needs no longer debating and we can all forget about it and stop saying nasty things about the FIA.

The FIA have forgotten that there are 4 things that make people want to listen and take note of what is said.
1. Honesty - Fail
2. Authenticity Fail
3. Integrity - Fail
4. Love - Fail
They are protecting themselves because they feel humiliated and hurt.

The lawyers involved with writing that statement got rid of all the things that drive trust and so they quite rightly wont be believed that they are going to do anything. They need a person to speak (not a statement) about what happened and what they are going to do to make sure a cluster fuck like this doesn't happen again.

Max is a worthy champion, Lewis would have been a worthy champion, the FIA hiding from criticism is not worthy of a lot right now.

Fred
 
Virtual737
Posts: 1439
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:16 am

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Thu Dec 16, 2021 6:18 pm

This whole farce also makes the repeated comments in this thread about the FIA favouring Lewis / Mercedes seems just a tad silly too.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 27445
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Thu Dec 16, 2021 6:30 pm

Boeing74741R wrote:
I know it's the Daily Mail, but they're running with a story that Mercedes will not appeal after all, with Hamilton reportedly stating he does not to win a title through the courts: -

Good for him, at least he's acting in the best interest of the sport if not many others are. Also as pointed out here, he and his father went over and congratulated Max and his father after the race. He's handling the result with a very high level of integrity, being a great role model for others. Personally I hope he's back next year, with strong motivation to get the title back again. It's a new era, hopefully one that fires up his competitive spirit. Anything can happen, it should be an adventure for all!
 
User avatar
scbriml
Topic Author
Posts: 20760
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Thu Dec 16, 2021 6:55 pm

Revelation wrote:
Boeing74741R wrote:
I know it's the Daily Mail, but they're running with a story that Mercedes will not appeal after all, with Hamilton reportedly stating he does not to win a title through the courts: -

Good for him, at least he's acting in the best interest of the sport if not many others are. Also as pointed out here, he and his father went over and congratulated Max and his father after the race. He's handling the result with a very high level of integrity, being a great role model for others. Personally I hope he's back next year, with strong motivation to get the title back again. It's a new era, hopefully one that fires up his competitive spirit. Anything can happen, it should be an adventure for all!


Cynic_mode=on

That kind of depends on who the FIA decides is going to win the WDC in 2022.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 27445
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Thu Dec 16, 2021 7:10 pm

scbriml wrote:
Cynic_mode=on

That kind of depends on who the FIA decides is going to win the WDC in 2022.

Reminds me of the old saying, "never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity".

Perhaps this saying is null and void in the current era...
 
User avatar
scbriml
Topic Author
Posts: 20760
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: F1 - 2021 Season

Thu Dec 16, 2021 8:15 pm

Virtual737 wrote:
This whole farce also makes the repeated comments in this thread about the FIA favouring Lewis / Mercedes seems just a tad silly too.


To be fair, both sides complain about bias against their driver. Not just this thread, but on every F1 website with comment sections!

It reminds me of both sides of the political divide in the UK moaning about BBC bias during the last election. If both sides are claiming an organisation is biased against them, the chances are the organisation is reasonably well balanced.

That said, there’s little doubt in my mind that the Race Direction and stewarding (including penalties issued) in the last few races of the season was driven by a desire to be seen to not be “interfering” in the championship.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: FGITD, Kent350787, marcelh, Newark727, SL1200MK2, TriJets, Vintage and 49 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos