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af773atmsp
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Derek Chauvin Trial Underway

Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:31 am

I sincerely hope justice will prevail in order to hold police accountable for their actions. Several high profile police incidents have happened in recent years just in the Minneapolis region, let alone across the country. If Derek Chauvin is found not guilty I believe it will be one of many failures of our justice system, will enable police departments everywhere to keep thinking they're above the law, and will likely trigger mass protests and riots in many cities including Minneapolis where certain areas are still recovering from last summer's riots.

https://www.startribune.com/chauvin-tri ... 600040089/
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LNCS0930
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Re: Derek Chauvin Trial Underway

Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:24 am

Best case scenario is probably a manslaughter conviction. If they somehow convict on anything beyond that it’ll be reduced in a retrial because evidence isn’t there for 1 or 2. I think a hung jury is possible but I can’t see any jurors holding out knowing they’ll either be killed or their homes burned to the ground if it gets out which ones held up the show
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Derek Chauvin Trial Underway

Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:52 am

LNCS0930 wrote:
Best case scenario is probably a manslaughter conviction. If they somehow convict on anything beyond that it’ll be reduced in a retrial because evidence isn’t there for 1 or 2. I think a hung jury is possible but I can’t see any jurors holding out knowing they’ll either be killed or their homes burned to the ground if it gets out which ones held up the show


Apologist award for this thread already claimed on post 2.
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Kiwirob
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Re: Derek Chauvin Trial Underway

Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:24 am

Whatever hes convicted of people won't be happy, the city will probably burn, rinse and repeat.
 
N583JB
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Re: Derek Chauvin Trial Underway

Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:41 am

LNCS0930 wrote:
Best case scenario is probably a manslaughter conviction. If they somehow convict on anything beyond that it’ll be reduced in a retrial because evidence isn’t there for 1 or 2. I think a hung jury is possible but I can’t see any jurors holding out knowing they’ll either be killed or their homes burned to the ground if it gets out which ones held up the show


Scary thought. Mob justice isn't justice.
 
extender
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Re: Derek Chauvin Trial Underway

Tue Mar 30, 2021 11:10 am

You can bet if he is found guilty that appeal would gain some more traction. There should have been a change of venue as well.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Derek Chauvin Trial Underway

Tue Mar 30, 2021 11:44 am

extender wrote:
You can bet if he is found guilty that appeal would gain some more traction. There should have been a change of venue as well.


Ho ho we agree for once. It’s completely illogical that the venue wasn’t moved.

Alas doing so would need to be done with careful jury selection, otherwise you’d have a Rodney King type situation where the LAPD officers were acquitted by an all-white jury in a conservative part of LA county, and that didn’t turn out well for anyone.
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LCDFlight
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Re: Derek Chauvin Trial Underway

Tue Mar 30, 2021 1:22 pm

If it is done according to the evidence, the first autopsy introduces reasonable doubt as to the cause of death. (Reasonable doubt to a layperson, as the autopsy listed at least three lethal conditions - advanced heart disease, drug overdose, compression).

This will be almost entirely a medical trial. Selfishly, I hope the cop is convicted so there is street peace. But by the evidence, he was using a department-approved hold, had plenty of witnesses to help & the guy died during an arrest. I blame the cops for failing to assist Floyd as a medical emergency. They are guilty of that. Killing him, not legally guilty.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Derek Chauvin Trial Underway

Tue Mar 30, 2021 1:25 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
If it is done according to the evidence, the first autopsy introduces reasonable doubt as to the cause of death. (Reasonable doubt to a layperson, as the autopsy listed at least three lethal conditions - advanced heart disease, drug overdose, compression).

This will be almost entirely a medical trial. Selfishly, I hope the cop is convicted so there is street peace. But by the evidence, he was using a department-approved hold, had plenty of witnesses to help & the guy died during an arrest. I blame the cops for failing to assist Floyd as a medical emergency. They are guilty of that. Killing him, not legally guilty.


In the latter case, the city is on the hook for the wrongful death suit that follows, not the cops.
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LCDFlight
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Re: Derek Chauvin Trial Underway

Tue Mar 30, 2021 1:26 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
If it is done according to the evidence, the first autopsy introduces reasonable doubt as to the cause of death. (Reasonable doubt to a layperson, as the autopsy listed at least three lethal conditions - advanced heart disease, drug overdose, compression).

This will be almost entirely a medical trial. Selfishly, I hope the cop is convicted so there is street peace. But by the evidence, he was using a department-approved hold, had plenty of witnesses to help & the guy died during an arrest. I blame the cops for failing to assist Floyd as a medical emergency. They are guilty of that. Killing him, not legally guilty.


In the latter case, the city is on the hook for the wrongful death suit that follows, not the cops.


Already settled.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Derek Chauvin Trial Underway

Tue Mar 30, 2021 2:08 pm

This trial will be about how the jury receives the below arguments. The defense is going to try to show death from the drugs in the system, while the prosecution is going to go for the video evidence of "I can't breathe" and "Mama Please". There is a lot of video evidence that is going to be quite convincing.

But Blackwell stressed that the prosecution believes Floyd's death wasn't the result of heart failure, which he said would have been an "instant death."

Noting the prolonged restraint of Floyd, Blackwell said, "He died one breath at a time, over an extended period of time."

Chauvin's defense attorney, Eric Nelson, told jurors later Monday that Floyd had a serious heart condition and had dangerous drugs in his system when he died.

"The evidence will show that Mr. Floyd died of a cardiac arrhythmia that occurred as a result of hypertension, his coronary disease, the ingestion of methamphetamine and fentanyl, and the adrenaline flowing through his body — all of which acted to further compromise an already compromised heart," Nelson said.

In the prosecution's argument, Blackwell acknowledged that Floyd had struggled with an addiction to opioids. But, he added, "he did not die from an opioid overdose."

The prosecutor said that while the amount of fentanyl found in Floyd's system might be considered lethal for some, the tolerance he built up over years of addiction did not make it deadly in his case.

People who die from such an overdose do so in an unresponsive stupor, Blackwell said.

"They're not screaming for their lives. They're not calling on their mothers," he added. "They are not begging, 'Please, please, I can't breathe.' "


https://www.npr.org/sections/trial-over ... g-argument


The videos can be accessed below that started all of this. The descriptions, and the bystanders pleas are going to play a huge part.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/01/us/georg ... index.html
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Aaron747
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Re: Derek Chauvin Trial Underway

Tue Mar 30, 2021 2:21 pm

casinterest wrote:
This trial will be about how the jury receives the below arguments. The defense is going to try to show death from the drugs in the system, while the prosecution is going to go for the video evidence of "I can't breathe" and "Mama Please". There is a lot of video evidence that is going to be quite convincing.

But Blackwell stressed that the prosecution believes Floyd's death wasn't the result of heart failure, which he said would have been an "instant death."

Noting the prolonged restraint of Floyd, Blackwell said, "He died one breath at a time, over an extended period of time."

Chauvin's defense attorney, Eric Nelson, told jurors later Monday that Floyd had a serious heart condition and had dangerous drugs in his system when he died.

"The evidence will show that Mr. Floyd died of a cardiac arrhythmia that occurred as a result of hypertension, his coronary disease, the ingestion of methamphetamine and fentanyl, and the adrenaline flowing through his body — all of which acted to further compromise an already compromised heart," Nelson said.

In the prosecution's argument, Blackwell acknowledged that Floyd had struggled with an addiction to opioids. But, he added, "he did not die from an opioid overdose."

The prosecutor said that while the amount of fentanyl found in Floyd's system might be considered lethal for some, the tolerance he built up over years of addiction did not make it deadly in his case.

People who die from such an overdose do so in an unresponsive stupor, Blackwell said.

"They're not screaming for their lives. They're not calling on their mothers," he added. "They are not begging, 'Please, please, I can't breathe.' "


https://www.npr.org/sections/trial-over ... g-argument


The videos can be accessed below that started all of this. The descriptions, and the bystanders pleas are going to play a huge part.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/01/us/georg ... index.html


Yep this is key. They need an expert witness who can explain in simple terms the normal sequence of sudden cardiac death and that it’s not what’s seen happening with Floyd. Anyone who has witnessed it knows that’s not what’s in the video and it’s over in seconds when it happens. We had a professor in college start coughing, wipe a couple sudden beads of sweat from his brow and crumple lifeless to the floor like a sack of potatoes mid-lecture. Will never forget it. He was lucky there was a nurse’s station with AED in the building or he was a goner.
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N583JB
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Re: Derek Chauvin Trial Underway

Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:33 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
This trial will be about how the jury receives the below arguments. The defense is going to try to show death from the drugs in the system, while the prosecution is going to go for the video evidence of "I can't breathe" and "Mama Please". There is a lot of video evidence that is going to be quite convincing.

But Blackwell stressed that the prosecution believes Floyd's death wasn't the result of heart failure, which he said would have been an "instant death."

Noting the prolonged restraint of Floyd, Blackwell said, "He died one breath at a time, over an extended period of time."

Chauvin's defense attorney, Eric Nelson, told jurors later Monday that Floyd had a serious heart condition and had dangerous drugs in his system when he died.

"The evidence will show that Mr. Floyd died of a cardiac arrhythmia that occurred as a result of hypertension, his coronary disease, the ingestion of methamphetamine and fentanyl, and the adrenaline flowing through his body — all of which acted to further compromise an already compromised heart," Nelson said.

In the prosecution's argument, Blackwell acknowledged that Floyd had struggled with an addiction to opioids. But, he added, "he did not die from an opioid overdose."

The prosecutor said that while the amount of fentanyl found in Floyd's system might be considered lethal for some, the tolerance he built up over years of addiction did not make it deadly in his case.

People who die from such an overdose do so in an unresponsive stupor, Blackwell said.

"They're not screaming for their lives. They're not calling on their mothers," he added. "They are not begging, 'Please, please, I can't breathe.' "


https://www.npr.org/sections/trial-over ... g-argument


The videos can be accessed below that started all of this. The descriptions, and the bystanders pleas are going to play a huge part.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/01/us/georg ... index.html


Yep this is key. They need an expert witness who can explain in simple terms the normal sequence of sudden cardiac death and that it’s not what’s seen happening with Floyd. Anyone who has witnessed it knows that’s not what’s in the video and it’s over in seconds when it happens. We had a professor in college start coughing, wipe a couple sudden beads of sweat from his brow and crumple lifeless to the floor like a sack of potatoes mid-lecture. Will never forget it. He was lucky there was a nurse’s station with AED in the building or he was a goner.


Didn't Floyd say he couldn't breathe while he was still standing upright and before he was placed in the police cruiser?
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Derek Chauvin Trial Underway

Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:40 pm

N583JB wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
This trial will be about how the jury receives the below arguments. The defense is going to try to show death from the drugs in the system, while the prosecution is going to go for the video evidence of "I can't breathe" and "Mama Please". There is a lot of video evidence that is going to be quite convincing.



https://www.npr.org/sections/trial-over ... g-argument


The videos can be accessed below that started all of this. The descriptions, and the bystanders pleas are going to play a huge part.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/01/us/georg ... index.html


Yep this is key. They need an expert witness who can explain in simple terms the normal sequence of sudden cardiac death and that it’s not what’s seen happening with Floyd. Anyone who has witnessed it knows that’s not what’s in the video and it’s over in seconds when it happens. We had a professor in college start coughing, wipe a couple sudden beads of sweat from his brow and crumple lifeless to the floor like a sack of potatoes mid-lecture. Will never forget it. He was lucky there was a nurse’s station with AED in the building or he was a goner.


https://fox4kc.com/news/i-cant-breathe- ... %20justice.

Didn't Floyd say he couldn't breathe while he was still standing upright and before he was placed in the police cruiser?


Yes, but in the nine minutes he was restrained by Chauvin he said he couldn't breathe 27 times according to transcripts. SCD happens in tens of seconds. Men usually experience chest pain or dizziness and fatigue before onset.
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N583JB
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Re: Derek Chauvin Trial Underway

Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:45 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
N583JB wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Yep this is key. They need an expert witness who can explain in simple terms the normal sequence of sudden cardiac death and that it’s not what’s seen happening with Floyd. Anyone who has witnessed it knows that’s not what’s in the video and it’s over in seconds when it happens. We had a professor in college start coughing, wipe a couple sudden beads of sweat from his brow and crumple lifeless to the floor like a sack of potatoes mid-lecture. Will never forget it. He was lucky there was a nurse’s station with AED in the building or he was a goner.


https://fox4kc.com/news/i-cant-breathe- ... %20justice.

Didn't Floyd say he couldn't breathe while he was still standing upright and before he was placed in the police cruiser?


Yes, but in the nine minutes he was restrained by Chauvin he said he couldn't breathe 27 times according to transcripts. SCD happens in tens of seconds. Men usually experience chest pain or dizziness and fatigue before onset.


It doesn't always happen in seconds. Shortness of breath is a key symptom in many cardiac disease processes which can play out over seconds, minutes, hours, or days.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Derek Chauvin Trial Underway

Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:47 pm

N583JB wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
N583JB wrote:

https://fox4kc.com/news/i-cant-breathe- ... %20justice.

Didn't Floyd say he couldn't breathe while he was still standing upright and before he was placed in the police cruiser?


Yes, but in the nine minutes he was restrained by Chauvin he said he couldn't breathe 27 times according to transcripts. SCD happens in tens of seconds. Men usually experience chest pain or dizziness and fatigue before onset.


It doesn't always happen in seconds. Shortness of breath is a key symptom in many cardiac disease processes which can play out over seconds, minutes, hours, or days.


Yes, but I'm talking about arrythmia-induced SCD. That is more typically seen in drug users. Remember Len Bias?
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N583JB
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Re: Derek Chauvin Trial Underway

Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:54 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
N583JB wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Yes, but in the nine minutes he was restrained by Chauvin he said he couldn't breathe 27 times according to transcripts. SCD happens in tens of seconds. Men usually experience chest pain or dizziness and fatigue before onset.


It doesn't always happen in seconds. Shortness of breath is a key symptom in many cardiac disease processes which can play out over seconds, minutes, hours, or days.


Yes, but I'm talking about arrythmia-induced SCD. That is more typically seen in drug users. Remember Len Bias?


I do. But it isn't always instant. If someone has coronary artery disease and takes meth or another stimulant, for example, the increased myocardial demand can result in the heart not being able to meet demand. A poorly functioning heart can result in a person becoming short of breath as the heart becomes ischemic. If that person's problems are not resolved, that ischemic heart is susceptible to arrhythmias which can manifest themselves as sudden cardiac arrest. Sort of a cascading thing. Jim not saying that is what happened to Mr. Floyd, but it is not implausible.
 
af773atmsp
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Re: Derek Chauvin Trial Underway

Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:34 pm

How long was Chauvin kneeling on Floyd's neck? To all the people who think Floyd died of cardiac arrest or some heart condition I'd like to see how they would handle having a knee on their neck for that long. I'm sure no one would want to attempt that. Why? Mainly because it would be quite painful, but also because of the chance of death which happened to Floyd.
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Aaron747
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Re: Derek Chauvin Trial Underway

Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:39 pm

af773atmsp wrote:
How long was Chauvin kneeling on Floyd's neck? To all the people who think Floyd died of cardiac arrest or some heart condition I'd like to see how they would handle having a knee on their neck for that long. I'm sure no one would want to attempt that. Why? Mainly because it would be quite painful, but also because of the chance of death which happened to Floyd.


Over nine minutes, according to one of the articles referenced in a previous post.
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LCDFlight
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Re: Derek Chauvin Trial Underway

Wed Mar 31, 2021 1:40 am

af773atmsp wrote:
How long was Chauvin kneeling on Floyd's neck? To all the people who think Floyd died of cardiac arrest or some heart condition I'd like to see how they would handle having a knee on their neck for that long. I'm sure no one would want to attempt that. Why? Mainly because it would be quite painful, but also because of the chance of death which happened to Floyd.


It is possible he was otherwise in fair health, and the knee killed him. But it's also possible that he was basically dying anyway. His behaviors would actually correlate to a guy who is feeling dizzy and short of breath during the onset of cardiac crisis. That may be why he was not cooperating in the first place.

From the police cam transcript:

"
As the officers are trying to get Floyd into their squad car, he repeatedly tells them he is claustrophobic and asks them to crack a window.

"Y‘all I'm going to die in here! I'm going to die, man!...and I just had COVID-19 man, I don’t want to go back to that,”

Lane tells Floyd he will roll the windows down and turn the air conditioning on.

Floyd tells the officers several times that he cannot breathe and says he wants to lay on the ground. Prior to getting Floyd to the ground, he says he cannot breathe multiple times.

At some point, Derek Chauvin and Tou Thao arrive on the scene.

The officers bring Floyd to the ground, where he continues to say he cannot breathe. He repeatedly cries out for his mother and says, “Tell my kids I love them. I’m dead."

“You’re doing a lot of talking man,” Chauvin tells him.

At one point, Lane asks, “Should we roll him on his side?”

Chauvin replies, “No, he’s staying put where we got him.”

Lane: Okay. just worry about the excited delirium or whatever.

Chauvin: Well that's why we got the ambulance coming.

Lane: Okay, I suppose.

Lane asks again a short time later, “Should we roll him on his side?”

EMS arrives to check on Floyd. Lane asks the paramedics, "you want one of us to ride with?" and he goes into the ambulance to help with CPR.
"
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Derek Chauvin Trial Underway

Wed Mar 31, 2021 1:54 am

LCDFlight wrote:
af773atmsp wrote:
How long was Chauvin kneeling on Floyd's neck? To all the people who think Floyd died of cardiac arrest or some heart condition I'd like to see how they would handle having a knee on their neck for that long. I'm sure no one would want to attempt that. Why? Mainly because it would be quite painful, but also because of the chance of death which happened to Floyd.


It is possible he was otherwise in fair health, and the knee killed him. But it's also possible that he was basically dying anyway. His behaviors would actually correlate to a guy who is feeling dizzy and short of breath during the onset of cardiac crisis. That may be why he was not cooperating in the first place.

From the police cam transcript:

"
As the officers are trying to get Floyd into their squad car, he repeatedly tells them he is claustrophobic and asks them to crack a window.

"Y‘all I'm going to die in here! I'm going to die, man!...and I just had COVID-19 man, I don’t want to go back to that,”

Lane tells Floyd he will roll the windows down and turn the air conditioning on.

Floyd tells the officers several times that he cannot breathe and says he wants to lay on the ground. Prior to getting Floyd to the ground, he says he cannot breathe multiple times.

At some point, Derek Chauvin and Tou Thao arrive on the scene.

The officers bring Floyd to the ground, where he continues to say he cannot breathe. He repeatedly cries out for his mother and says, “Tell my kids I love them. I’m dead."

“You’re doing a lot of talking man,” Chauvin tells him.

At one point, Lane asks, “Should we roll him on his side?”

Chauvin replies, “No, he’s staying put where we got him.”

Lane: Okay. just worry about the excited delirium or whatever.

Chauvin: Well that's why we got the ambulance coming.

Lane: Okay, I suppose.

Lane asks again a short time later, “Should we roll him on his side?”

EMS arrives to check on Floyd. Lane asks the paramedics, "you want one of us to ride with?" and he goes into the ambulance to help with CPR.
"


The off-duty MFD firefighter who testified she wanted to render aid at the scene but was rebuffed by the cops was really damaging.
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NIKV69
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Re: Derek Chauvin Trial Underway

Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:34 am

Aaron747 wrote:
The off-duty MFD firefighter who testified she wanted to render aid at the scene but was rebuffed by the cops was really damaging.


The fact every officer at the scene really didn't show much care for his condition after he became unresponsive was mind blowing. Chauvin should have sought a deal, the more I see of this trial the more I think he will be convicted of 3rd degree murder.
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Re: Derek Chauvin Trial Underway

Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:52 am

NIKV69 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
The off-duty MFD firefighter who testified she wanted to render aid at the scene but was rebuffed by the cops was really damaging.


The fact every officer at the scene really didn't show much care for his condition after he became unresponsive was mind blowing. Chauvin should have sought a deal, the more I see of this trial the more I think he will be convicted of 3rd degree murder.


that's a point that got me. I maybe give a little too much leeway to officers because controlling a threat or resisting individual is much harder than most people think, but he wasn't really resisting much and then refusing aid when he was clearly having a major health issue...that's shocking.

There's bodycam footage out there of officers shooting an individual who had pointed a gun at them, and still showing more care than these guys.
 
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Re: Derek Chauvin Trial Underway

Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:50 am

Why does it matter what he had in his system or that he had a heart condition? What was the motive for a cop to be kneeling on his neck for nine minutes until he died? What was the motivation? I don't care what was in George Floyd's health history. The suspect was subdued. Why did he need to be held while begging for breath? He was subdued. Why did he need to die?
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Re: Derek Chauvin Trial Underway

Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:19 am

seb146 wrote:
Why does it matter what he had in his system or that he had a heart condition? What was the motive for a cop to be kneeling on his neck for nine minutes until he died? What was the motivation? I don't care what was in George Floyd's health history. The suspect was subdued. Why did he need to be held while begging for breath? He was subdued. Why did he need to die?


According to the defense, knee hold was an approved procedure in the MPD. Chauvin is claiming that was the motivation.
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Re: Derek Chauvin Trial Underway

Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:50 am

Aaron747 wrote:
The off-duty MFD firefighter who testified she wanted to render aid at the scene but was rebuffed by the cops was really damaging.



Damning video evidence (it's a videocam from one of the officers, viewer discretion advised):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjKjaCvXdf4

At 18:05, after the EMT repeatedly asks to check Floyd's pulse an officer leans in and feels for a pulse which you see in the video, he then pulls back and says "I couldn't find one".

The officers fail to stop restraining him after that point for almost 3 minutes. Every one who is trained in basic first aid (like these officers should have been, but the level of American Police training never fails to surprise me) should know that is an immediate signal to start CPR.

Unbelievable
 
N583JB
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Re: Derek Chauvin Trial Underway

Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:51 am

seb146 wrote:
Why does it matter what he had in his system or that he had a heart condition? What was the motive for a cop to be kneeling on his neck for nine minutes until he died? What was the motivation? I don't care what was in George Floyd's health history. The suspect was subdued. Why did he need to be held while begging for breath? He was subdued. Why did he need to die?


It matters because the defense can argue that Floyd's cause of death was not due to his restraint but due to an overdose or a combination of health problems.
 
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Re: Derek Chauvin Trial Underway

Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:54 am

Aaron747 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Why does it matter what he had in his system or that he had a heart condition? What was the motive for a cop to be kneeling on his neck for nine minutes until he died? What was the motivation? I don't care what was in George Floyd's health history. The suspect was subdued. Why did he need to be held while begging for breath? He was subdued. Why did he need to die?


According to the defense, knee hold was an approved procedure in the MPD. Chauvin is claiming that was the motivation.



If that’s the case I’d say the defense will came he was dying anyways due to the health issues and drugs and that the knee on the neck didn’t do it. I believe the first autopsy did not say he died from strangulation (or similar).
 
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Re: Derek Chauvin Trial Underway

Wed Mar 31, 2021 1:36 pm

N583JB wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Why does it matter what he had in his system or that he had a heart condition? What was the motive for a cop to be kneeling on his neck for nine minutes until he died? What was the motivation? I don't care what was in George Floyd's health history. The suspect was subdued. Why did he need to be held while begging for breath? He was subdued. Why did he need to die?


It matters because the defense can argue that Floyd's cause of death was not due to his restraint but due to an overdose or a combination of health problems.


Then the defense shouldn't mind having a knee pressed on their neck for 9 minutes to see how well they handle it.

Under what circumstances will they finally admit they did something wrong? Seems like no matter what happens they always weasel their way out of guilt somehow.
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N583JB
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Re: Derek Chauvin Trial Underway

Wed Mar 31, 2021 1:39 pm

af773atmsp wrote:
N583JB wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Why does it matter what he had in his system or that he had a heart condition? What was the motive for a cop to be kneeling on his neck for nine minutes until he died? What was the motivation? I don't care what was in George Floyd's health history. The suspect was subdued. Why did he need to be held while begging for breath? He was subdued. Why did he need to die?


It matters because the defense can argue that Floyd's cause of death was not due to his restraint but due to an overdose or a combination of health problems.


Then the defense shouldn't mind having a knee pressed on their neck for 9 minutes to see how well they handle it.

Under what circumstances will they finally admit they did something wrong? Seems like no matter what happens they always weasel their way out of guilt somehow.


Never? The defense is there to defend their client. That's their job.
 
cskok8
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Re: Derek Chauvin Trial Underway

Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:02 pm

mad99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Why does it matter what he had in his system or that he had a heart condition? What was the motive for a cop to be kneeling on his neck for nine minutes until he died? What was the motivation? I don't care what was in George Floyd's health history. The suspect was subdued. Why did he need to be held while begging for breath? He was subdued. Why did he need to die?


According to the defense, knee hold was an approved procedure in the MPD. Chauvin is claiming that was the motivation.



If that’s the case I’d say the defense will came he was dying anyways due to the health issues and drugs and that the knee on the neck didn’t do it. I believe the first autopsy did not say he died from strangulation (or similar).


Yes, everybody will eventually die
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Derek Chauvin Trial Underway

Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:25 pm

N583JB wrote:
af773atmsp wrote:
N583JB wrote:

It matters because the defense can argue that Floyd's cause of death was not due to his restraint but due to an overdose or a combination of health problems.


Then the defense shouldn't mind having a knee pressed on their neck for 9 minutes to see how well they handle it.

Under what circumstances will they finally admit they did something wrong? Seems like no matter what happens they always weasel their way out of guilt somehow.


Never? The defense is there to defend their client. That's their job.


They're not really doing that, as was pointed out by a prosecutor on CNN last night. They didn't object when one witness said he believed he saw a murder, and they didn't move to strike on speculation when the off duty MFD said she was prevented from rendering aid.
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N583JB
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Re: Derek Chauvin Trial Underway

Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:39 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
N583JB wrote:
af773atmsp wrote:

Then the defense shouldn't mind having a knee pressed on their neck for 9 minutes to see how well they handle it.

Under what circumstances will they finally admit they did something wrong? Seems like no matter what happens they always weasel their way out of guilt somehow.


Never? The defense is there to defend their client. That's their job.


They're not really doing that, as was pointed out by a prosecutor on CNN last night. They didn't object when one witness said he believed he saw a murder, and they didn't move to strike on speculation when the off duty MFD said she was prevented from rendering aid.


They'll have their chance. The defense will be able to call their own witnesses once the prosecution is done with theirs.
 
NIKV69
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Re: Derek Chauvin Trial Underway

Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:57 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Why does it matter what he had in his system or that he had a heart condition? What was the motive for a cop to be kneeling on his neck for nine minutes until he died? What was the motivation? I don't care what was in George Floyd's health history. The suspect was subdued. Why did he need to be held while begging for breath? He was subdued. Why did he need to die?


According to the defense, knee hold was an approved procedure in the MPD. Chauvin is claiming that was the motivation.


Is it approved to use if the suspect is fighting the police? I doubt it is approved once the suspect has cuffs on and is not combative.
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af773atmsp
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Re: Derek Chauvin Trial Underway

Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:10 pm

N583JB wrote:
af773atmsp wrote:
N583JB wrote:

It matters because the defense can argue that Floyd's cause of death was not due to his restraint but due to an overdose or a combination of health problems.


Then the defense shouldn't mind having a knee pressed on their neck for 9 minutes to see how well they handle it.

Under what circumstances will they finally admit they did something wrong? Seems like no matter what happens they always weasel their way out of guilt somehow.


Never? The defense is there to defend their client. That's their job.


I was mainly referring to the police department and the officers who were involved in this incident.
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Aaron747
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Re: Derek Chauvin Trial Underway

Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:11 pm

N583JB wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
N583JB wrote:

Never? The defense is there to defend their client. That's their job.


They're not really doing that, as was pointed out by a prosecutor on CNN last night. They didn't object when one witness said he believed he saw a murder, and they didn't move to strike on speculation when the off duty MFD said she was prevented from rendering aid.


They'll have their chance. The defense will be able to call their own witnesses once the prosecution is done with theirs.


Mmmm normally a defense attorney would object to a witness rendering a legal opinion that they witnessed murder.
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N583JB
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Re: Derek Chauvin Trial Underway

Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:29 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
N583JB wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

They're not really doing that, as was pointed out by a prosecutor on CNN last night. They didn't object when one witness said he believed he saw a murder, and they didn't move to strike on speculation when the off duty MFD said she was prevented from rendering aid.


They'll have their chance. The defense will be able to call their own witnesses once the prosecution is done with theirs.


Mmmm normally a defense attorney would object to a witness rendering a legal opinion that they witnessed murder.


I'm sure those attorneys know exactly what they are doing.
 
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seb146
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Re: Derek Chauvin Trial Underway

Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:29 pm

N583JB wrote:
af773atmsp wrote:
N583JB wrote:

It matters because the defense can argue that Floyd's cause of death was not due to his restraint but due to an overdose or a combination of health problems.


Then the defense shouldn't mind having a knee pressed on their neck for 9 minutes to see how well they handle it.

Under what circumstances will they finally admit they did something wrong? Seems like no matter what happens they always weasel their way out of guilt somehow.


Never? The defense is there to defend their client. That's their job.


A suspect was detained and begging for his life. The cops on scene would not allow him to have medical attention. Killing an unarmed suspect is NOT their job. They did their job. He was subdued. He was in custody. That was their job. Ignoring cries for help is not their job. Their job is to help.
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seb146
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Re: Derek Chauvin Trial Underway

Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:29 pm

N583JB wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
N583JB wrote:

They'll have their chance. The defense will be able to call their own witnesses once the prosecution is done with theirs.


Mmmm normally a defense attorney would object to a witness rendering a legal opinion that they witnessed murder.


I'm sure those attorneys know exactly what they are doing.


Police unions pay for excellent lawyers so cops don't have to face the same laws we do. So, in that regard, yes. The lawyers know what they are doing.
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N583JB
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Re: Derek Chauvin Trial Underway

Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:31 pm

seb146 wrote:
N583JB wrote:
af773atmsp wrote:

Then the defense shouldn't mind having a knee pressed on their neck for 9 minutes to see how well they handle it.

Under what circumstances will they finally admit they did something wrong? Seems like no matter what happens they always weasel their way out of guilt somehow.


Never? The defense is there to defend their client. That's their job.


A suspect was detained and begging for his life. The cops on scene would not allow him to have medical attention. Killing an unarmed suspect is NOT their job. They did their job. He was subdued. He was in custody. That was their job. Ignoring cries for help is not their job. Their job is to help.


That's the prosecutions argument. I'm sure the defense will have a different story to tell. And the jury will decide which side they believe.
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: Derek Chauvin Trial Underway

Wed Mar 31, 2021 11:43 pm

The Trial is being broadcast in many ways, so it was easy to watch some of it today on over the air TV.

One witness that testified today was Christopher Belfrey. He had a voice that reminded me of Dave Chappelle's voice.

The Prosecution played a video Mr. Belfrey made from his car. They chose to mute what was said when the video was made.

But for the rest of the trial, the Prosecution was keen on asking every witness what they were thinking at the time the incident was unfolding. But it would seem that what someone said while they were recording, is a pretty good indicator of what they they were thinking at the time. Oh well.
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Aaron747
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Re: Derek Chauvin Trial Underway

Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:43 am

More damaging testimony today from Chauvin’s supe, who said he did not follow proper knee hold procedure and used excessive force.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1262840
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: Derek Chauvin Trial Underway

Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:47 am

Scott Johnson is a noted Minneapolis lawyer who got press credentials for the trial. He writes about it each day.

https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/ ... ay-3-2.php
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Kno
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Re: Derek Chauvin Trial Underway

Fri Apr 02, 2021 10:18 am

In these threads we go back and forth about the legality of these police blatantly murdering people. It’s often pointed out that there are loop holes by way of approved procedure etc that “justify” police murders.

If this is the case then we have a broken system. Although this should be no surprise when minor drug offenders are often doing more time than privileged pedophiles and rapists.

We need more laws and accountability to protect people from being killed by police. Police who kill people that are clearly not posing a lethal threat to them as they beg for their lives for an extended period of time - are murderers. Plain and simple - and I hope we’d all like to see some justice for that.
 
bennett123
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Re: Derek Chauvin Trial Underway

Fri Apr 02, 2021 10:46 am

sierrakilo44 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
The off-duty MFD firefighter who testified she wanted to render aid at the scene but was rebuffed by the cops was really damaging.



Damning video evidence (it's a videocam from one of the officers, viewer discretion advised):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjKjaCvXdf4

At 18:05, after the EMT repeatedly asks to check Floyd's pulse an officer leans in and feels for a pulse which you see in the video, he then pulls back and says "I couldn't find one".

The officers fail to stop restraining him after that point for almost 3 minutes. Every one who is trained in basic first aid (like these officers should have been, but the level of American Police training never fails to surprise me) should know that is an immediate signal to start CPR.

Unbelievable


A couple of points caught my attention.

1. That at no point was George Floyd co operative.

2. That even in the first few minutes he seemed to be borderline hysterical.

3. This point about claustrophobia, didn't seem to be problem when sitting in his own car.
 
N583JB
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Re: Derek Chauvin Trial Underway

Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:44 pm

Kno wrote:
In these threads we go back and forth about the legality of these police blatantly murdering people. It’s often pointed out that there are loop holes by way of approved procedure etc that “justify” police murders.

If this is the case then we have a broken system. Although this should be no surprise when minor drug offenders are often doing more time than privileged pedophiles and rapists.

We need more laws and accountability to protect people from being killed by police. Police who kill people that are clearly not posing a lethal threat to them as they beg for their lives for an extended period of time - are murderers. Plain and simple - and I hope we’d all like to see some justice for that.


While I agree with your last paragraph, too many times we've seen people assume that the police "get away with murdering people" because people fall for narratives that are, after investigation, found to be false. It happens all the time. Mike Brown is an example, as is Alton Sterling. Too many people eager to cry wolf in order to push a narrative, and not enough people actually interested in the true facts of the case.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Derek Chauvin Trial Underway

Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:51 pm

bennett123 wrote:
sierrakilo44 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
The off-duty MFD firefighter who testified she wanted to render aid at the scene but was rebuffed by the cops was really damaging.



Damning video evidence (it's a videocam from one of the officers, viewer discretion advised):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjKjaCvXdf4

At 18:05, after the EMT repeatedly asks to check Floyd's pulse an officer leans in and feels for a pulse which you see in the video, he then pulls back and says "I couldn't find one".

The officers fail to stop restraining him after that point for almost 3 minutes. Every one who is trained in basic first aid (like these officers should have been, but the level of American Police training never fails to surprise me) should know that is an immediate signal to start CPR.

Unbelievable


A couple of points caught my attention.

1. That at no point was George Floyd co operative.

2. That even in the first few minutes he seemed to be borderline hysterical.

3. This point about claustrophobia, didn't seem to be problem when sitting in his own car.


All valid points. I don’t think he will be convicted of murder, at best manslaughter.

The body cam videos don’t look as bad as the by stander videos, they show a man not complying to police instructions. Sad he died but to me it looked like his actions coupled with his health issues contributed to his death.
 
NIKV69
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Re: Derek Chauvin Trial Underway

Fri Apr 02, 2021 2:13 pm

bennett123 wrote:


A couple of points caught my attention.

1. That at no point was George Floyd co operative.

2. That even in the first few minutes he seemed to be borderline hysterical.

3. This point about claustrophobia, didn't seem to be problem when sitting in his own car.


Good points but once he is not combative and on the ground with cuffs you can't be doing that. You have to try to get him up and get him back in car. If he fights again then tase him. I don't like the knee on neck or choke hold unless the officer is alone and fighting for his life.
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bennett123
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Re: Derek Chauvin Trial Underway

Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:03 pm

I am not from the US. Perhaps someone from across the pond can explain why he was behaving that way.
 
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CitizenJustin
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Re: Derek Chauvin Trial Underway

Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:19 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Whatever hes convicted of people won't be happy, the city will probably burn, rinse and repeat.



“The city”

You’re so dramatic. At most a few crappy buildings on a few blocks. You act as if the entire city will be burned to the ground.
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