Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
Aaron747
Topic Author
Posts: 14102
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Airport Neighbors Unhappier Than Ever About Noise, Despite Quieter Planes

Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:15 am

This has been an annoying NIMBY issue to me for ages - but now survey data shows that even as planes get quieter, airport neighbors’ ire grows at lower sound levels than before.

Could it be that the issue is less about the noise itself and more about the explosion of narcissism in American society?

As the old adage goes, if you don’t like airplane noise, don’t buy a home within the cone of an active runway.

https://www.planeandpilotmag.com/news/p ... er-planes/

They were also far more annoyed by aircraft noise than other types of noise, such as loud traffic. The so-called Schultz Curve from previous surveys shows that no one seemed perturbed by noise levels of 50 decibels, around 10% of respondents were “highly annoyed” by 65 decibels and less than 40% got that angry at 75 dB.

In the new “National” Curve from this survey, however, almost 20% were “highly annoyed” by 50 dB, around 66% by 65 dB, and close to 90% by 75 dB.

So, less noise is now angering more people. And this is at a time when windows in houses are far better insulated from outside sound than in decades past
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
ltbewr
Posts: 15616
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: Airport Neighbors Unhappier Than Ever About Noise, Despite Quieter Planes

Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:34 am

In the USA, it is the deep fear of residential homeowners that the value of their property they hope to make a lot of money on when they sell will be less than desirable. Some who moved to areas near airports did so as the value of property was lower and more affordable.
Than you have the 'environmental racism', issue like government subsided public housing, too often Black and Hispanic/Latino occupying, feel that they were put in the worst place, like near noisy airports due to their skin color and poverty.
Then there is the frequency even if at low db levels which can be annoying. Airport authorities and Federal grants have been given to schools and other facilities to pay for sound reduction alterations and some homeowners want a cut of that money too so to pay for mods they want for their properties.
 
WIederling
Posts: 9986
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Airport Neighbors Unhappier Than Ever About Noise, Despite Quieter Planes

Mon Apr 05, 2021 12:49 pm

my impression for Hamburg or any other airport vicinity region in Germany:

The "Anti Airplane Noisies" will be aggressively active as long as they can see airplanes.
Murphy is an optimist
 
User avatar
ER757
Posts: 4030
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 10:16 am

Re: Airport Neighbors Unhappier Than Ever About Noise, Despite Quieter Planes

Mon Apr 05, 2021 7:10 pm

I think the article hits on an interesting point, about the "type" of noise complained about. Many years ago when I was but a 20-something long-haired rock and roll guitarist, our band played an outdoor gig in the town where we lived on Memorial Day afternoon to give the kids in the town something to do on their day off. Got permission from the village, notified the police that we'd be playing from 2:00 to 4:00 etc. Into our second set, the cops show up and say neighbors were complaining about the noise. We told the officer we had a permit and he told us to carry on. About half an hour later another cop shows up and tells us we need to shut it down. I ended up writing a scathing letter to the editor in the local paper asking the neighbors why they don't complain about the guy next door running his lawn mower or chainsaw, both of which make a lot more racket than we did.
 
FGITD
Posts: 1494
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:44 pm

Re: Airport Neighbors Unhappier Than Ever About Noise, Despite Quieter Planes

Mon Apr 05, 2021 7:44 pm

ER757 wrote:
I think the article hits on an interesting point, about the "type" of noise complained about. Many years ago when I was but a 20-something long-haired rock and roll guitarist, our band played an outdoor gig in the town where we lived on Memorial Day afternoon to give the kids in the town something to do on their day off. Got permission from the village, notified the police that we'd be playing from 2:00 to 4:00 etc. Into our second set, the cops show up and say neighbors were complaining about the noise. We told the officer we had a permit and he told us to carry on. About half an hour later another cop shows up and tells us we need to shut it down. I ended up writing a scathing letter to the editor in the local paper asking the neighbors why they don't complain about the guy next door running his lawn mower or chainsaw, both of which make a lot more racket than we did.


I think that’s exactly the point, the “type” of noise and the ability to control it to a certain degree changes people’s perspectives.

I have an office at an airport, my windows overlook a ramp/taxiway/runway. It’s noise all day, and it bothers me so little that I’ll even open my windows on a nice day. Between late night delayed flights, I’ve even been known to get some prolonged blinks in with the same noise. But the second my neighbor at home turns on his leaf blower, it's as if I'm in the loudest place on earth.
 
cpd
Posts: 6715
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:46 am

Re: Airport Neighbors Unhappier Than Ever About Noise, Despite Quieter Planes

Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:37 pm

FGITD wrote:
ER757 wrote:
I think the article hits on an interesting point, about the "type" of noise complained about. Many years ago when I was but a 20-something long-haired rock and roll guitarist, our band played an outdoor gig in the town where we lived on Memorial Day afternoon to give the kids in the town something to do on their day off. Got permission from the village, notified the police that we'd be playing from 2:00 to 4:00 etc. Into our second set, the cops show up and say neighbors were complaining about the noise. We told the officer we had a permit and he told us to carry on. About half an hour later another cop shows up and tells us we need to shut it down. I ended up writing a scathing letter to the editor in the local paper asking the neighbors why they don't complain about the guy next door running his lawn mower or chainsaw, both of which make a lot more racket than we did.


I think that’s exactly the point, the “type” of noise and the ability to control it to a certain degree changes people’s perspectives.

I have an office at an airport, my windows overlook a ramp/taxiway/runway. It’s noise all day, and it bothers me so little that I’ll even open my windows on a nice day. Between late night delayed flights, I’ve even been known to get some prolonged blinks in with the same noise. But the second my neighbor at home turns on his leaf blower, it's as if I'm in the loudest place on earth.


I don’t mind aircraft noise because they are gone fairly quickly, but I do mind my deadbeat neighbours kids bashing that damn big drum (Lebanese drum).

They go all afternoon (from say 2pm) and all night (up to midnight), blast the music loudly, shout and scream, even crap karaoke all at loud volume. They don’t even live there, just turn up to the unfinished place on weekends to have their parties outside.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Topic Author
Posts: 14102
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Airport Neighbors Unhappier Than Ever About Noise, Despite Quieter Planes

Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:07 pm

cpd wrote:
FGITD wrote:
ER757 wrote:
I think the article hits on an interesting point, about the "type" of noise complained about. Many years ago when I was but a 20-something long-haired rock and roll guitarist, our band played an outdoor gig in the town where we lived on Memorial Day afternoon to give the kids in the town something to do on their day off. Got permission from the village, notified the police that we'd be playing from 2:00 to 4:00 etc. Into our second set, the cops show up and say neighbors were complaining about the noise. We told the officer we had a permit and he told us to carry on. About half an hour later another cop shows up and tells us we need to shut it down. I ended up writing a scathing letter to the editor in the local paper asking the neighbors why they don't complain about the guy next door running his lawn mower or chainsaw, both of which make a lot more racket than we did.


I think that’s exactly the point, the “type” of noise and the ability to control it to a certain degree changes people’s perspectives.

I have an office at an airport, my windows overlook a ramp/taxiway/runway. It’s noise all day, and it bothers me so little that I’ll even open my windows on a nice day. Between late night delayed flights, I’ve even been known to get some prolonged blinks in with the same noise. But the second my neighbor at home turns on his leaf blower, it's as if I'm in the loudest place on earth.


I don’t mind aircraft noise because they are gone fairly quickly, but I do mind my deadbeat neighbours kids bashing that damn big drum (Lebanese drum).

They go all afternoon (from say 2pm) and all night (up to midnight), blast the music loudly, shout and scream, even crap karaoke all at loud volume. They don’t even live there, just turn up to the unfinished place on weekends to have their parties outside.


Now THAT sounds awful. As you said, even a loud twin or cranky old Piper on climbout are done with their noisemaking within a few moments when they’ve moved on.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
tu204
Posts: 2218
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:36 am

Re: Airport Neighbors Unhappier Than Ever About Noise, Despite Quieter Planes

Tue Apr 06, 2021 4:45 am

I find it amazing that cities go along with taking seriously (creating curfews, annoying noise abatement procedures) people that buy properties in developments near airports and then complain about noise*. What the hell did they expect?

*- exception is for new airports, these guys have an excuse.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Topic Author
Posts: 14102
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Airport Neighbors Unhappier Than Ever About Noise, Despite Quieter Planes

Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:48 am

tu204 wrote:
I find it amazing that cities go along with taking seriously (creating curfews, annoying noise abatement procedures) people that buy properties in developments near airports and then complain about noise*. What the hell did they expect?

*- exception is for new airports, these guys have an excuse.


They have no choice - local governments *usually* feel they cannot be taken seriously if they ignore large blocs of taxpayers' concerns about residential conditions. Emphasis on usually lol
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
User avatar
T18
Posts: 763
Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2009 12:28 am

Re: Airport Neighbors Unhappier Than Ever About Noise, Despite Quieter Planes

Tue Apr 06, 2021 1:52 pm

I have a simple rule for NIMBYs. If the Airport, Racetrack, Gun Range, Concert Venue, Stadium, School, Open Pit Mine, Etc was there before you built on the property you have zero right to complain ever, if you bought the dwelling and then learned about it complain about the folks who sold it with out telling you and if they built something with out you saying a word until it was done, I'll grant you a half right to moan about it but still wonder how the heck you failed to attempt to stop it being built...

And frankly for some of these cases, I would gladly buy their home, essp the folks who are upset about a Racetrack or a GA airport lol.
“Racing's important to men who do it well. When you're racing, it's life. Anything that happens before or after is just waiting.” ― Steve McQueen (Le Mans) 1971
 
marcelh
Posts: 1324
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: Airport Neighbors Unhappier Than Ever About Noise, Despite Quieter Planes

Tue Apr 06, 2021 2:23 pm

T18 wrote:
I have a simple rule for NIMBYs. If the Airport, Racetrack, Gun Range, Concert Venue, Stadium, School, Open Pit Mine, Etc was there before you built on the property you have zero right to complain ever, if you bought the dwelling and then learned about it complain about the folks who sold it with out telling you and if they built something with out you saying a word until it was done, I'll grant you a half right to moan about it but still wonder how the heck you failed to attempt to stop it being built...

And frankly for some of these cases, I would gladly buy their home, essp the folks who are upset about a Racetrack or a GA airport lol.

And what about an airport which has seen a substantial increase in traffic? AMS has seen an increase in movements of 20 percent in the last decade. Not only more planes but also an increase in size.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Topic Author
Posts: 14102
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Airport Neighbors Unhappier Than Ever About Noise, Despite Quieter Planes

Tue Apr 06, 2021 2:28 pm

marcelh wrote:
T18 wrote:
I have a simple rule for NIMBYs. If the Airport, Racetrack, Gun Range, Concert Venue, Stadium, School, Open Pit Mine, Etc was there before you built on the property you have zero right to complain ever, if you bought the dwelling and then learned about it complain about the folks who sold it with out telling you and if they built something with out you saying a word until it was done, I'll grant you a half right to moan about it but still wonder how the heck you failed to attempt to stop it being built...

And frankly for some of these cases, I would gladly buy their home, essp the folks who are upset about a Racetrack or a GA airport lol.

And what about an airport which has seen a substantial increase in traffic? AMS has seen an increase in movements of 20 percent in the last decade. Not only more planes but also an increase in size.


Anyone buying near an existing major airport would have to logically conclude expansion and/or increased capacity would be a strong future possibility.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
tu204
Posts: 2218
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:36 am

Re: Airport Neighbors Unhappier Than Ever About Noise, Despite Quieter Planes

Tue Apr 06, 2021 2:28 pm

marcelh wrote:
T18 wrote:
I have a simple rule for NIMBYs. If the Airport, Racetrack, Gun Range, Concert Venue, Stadium, School, Open Pit Mine, Etc was there before you built on the property you have zero right to complain ever, if you bought the dwelling and then learned about it complain about the folks who sold it with out telling you and if they built something with out you saying a word until it was done, I'll grant you a half right to moan about it but still wonder how the heck you failed to attempt to stop it being built...

And frankly for some of these cases, I would gladly buy their home, essp the folks who are upset about a Racetrack or a GA airport lol.

And what about an airport which has seen a substantial increase in traffic? AMS has seen an increase in movements of 20 percent in the last decade. Not only more planes but also an increase in size.


I'd say irrelevant. I am gonna bet that aircraft got at least 20% quieter in the same period :lol:
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
masi1157
Posts: 447
Joined: Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:56 am

Re: Airport Neighbors Unhappier Than Ever About Noise, Despite Quieter Planes

Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:17 pm

tu204 wrote:
I'd say irrelevant. I am gonna bet that aircraft got at least 20% quieter in the same period :lol:

What is "20% quieter"?

If an aircraft is loud enough to wake me up at night or makes it impossible to talk and listen to anybody at my garden table, it doesn't really matter how much too noisy it is. And if that happens 20% more often than when I bought the house, it annoys me.


Gruß, masi1157
517 different segments on 101 airlines to 212 airports in 55 countries
 
Sokes
Posts: 2731
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: Airport Neighbors Unhappier Than Ever About Noise, Despite Quieter Planes

Tue Apr 06, 2021 4:04 pm

ltbewr wrote:
In the USA, it is the deep fear of residential homeowners that the value of their property they hope to make a lot of money on when they sell will be less than desirable. Some who moved to areas near airports did so as the value of property was lower and more affordable.
Than you have the 'environmental racism', issue like government subsided public housing, too often Black and Hispanic/Latino occupying, feel that they were put in the worst place, like near noisy airports due to their skin color and poverty.
...

Agreed.
So it's lobbying without justification of the first group.
Concerning the second group: Similar one has high buildings next to arterial roads in cities. Poor people live in these, blocking the noise for the remaining city. Maybe one should stop car traffic in cities as well.

Housing is a funny topic. Unless one lives in a city like Paris or London shortage of land (for flats) should be no issue. However politicians also are invested in land and like to create a shortage. By putting poor people in traffic noise there is no risk rich people will shift there.
In India I saw a housing program where poor people got like 50 or 60 square meter plots for free. All fields around. The purpose to make plots so small was to make it unattractive for wealthier sections.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 10180
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Airport Neighbors Unhappier Than Ever About Noise, Despite Quieter Planes

Tue Apr 06, 2021 4:08 pm

Sometimes you need to experience quiet to understand how loud it was. Since COVID I find the planes a lot louder, because now there are periods of quiet.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Airport Neighbors Unhappier Than Ever About Noise, Despite Quieter Planes

Tue Apr 06, 2021 4:25 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
This has been an annoying NIMBY issue to me for ages - but now survey data shows that even as planes get quieter, airport neighbors’ ire grows at lower sound levels than before.

Could it be that the issue is less about the noise itself and more about the explosion of narcissism in American society?

As the old adage goes, if you don’t like airplane noise, don’t buy a home within the cone of an active runway.


A few things about this.

Studies show that airplane noise is very intrusive due to the pitch but also the unpredictability of it. Much more so than trains or cars. So it is indeed an issue. Schiphol Amsterdam Airport has much less traffic in 2020, obviously, but the number of movements was more or less the same as the mid-1990s. Which in itself is quite mind bobbling to think about. So the old adage is not entirely true with the increase in traffic over the years. The area in which airplane noise can be annoying is quite large as well, tens of kilometers away, not just below an active runway. I do not mind - obviously - but I live around 50km away from Schiphol, as the crow flies, and sometimes there are planes flying quite low over my city, and I can imagine that that bothers some.

Airports tend to be close to cities, because of the people - costumers if you will - there, obviously. The people are there because of work, friends etc. So this is quite a big problem to coexist. Just to say one of those should not make a fuss is quite strange to me. The airport is there for the people, not the other way around.

Noise pollution is a real problem and can affect ones health, so it is something to keep in mind. Food for thought ;)
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
c933103
Posts: 5297
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Airport Neighbors Unhappier Than Ever About Noise, Despite Quieter Planes

Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:18 pm

Are airports actually quieter, if let say 737 get replaced by 787, or two new 737MAX? Increase in gauge size and frequency due to traffic increase is quite common across the.world in recent decades
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate. 求同存異. よく見て・よく聞いて・よく考える
A placeholder line
You are now at your youngest moment in your remaining life.
 
LittleFokker
Posts: 1389
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 10:25 pm

Re: Airport Neighbors Unhappier Than Ever About Noise, Despite Quieter Planes

Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:26 pm

Isn't it true that with every airport in a residential area, the airport was originally way outside of town and then the city grew around it?
"All human activities are doomed to failure." - Jean Paul Sartre
 
User avatar
c933103
Posts: 5297
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Airport Neighbors Unhappier Than Ever About Noise, Despite Quieter Planes

Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:51 pm

LittleFokker wrote:
Isn't it true that with every airport in a residential area, the airport was originally way outside of town and then the city grew around it?

There are new airports being build on the edge of the town and there are existing airports that have adopted new flight paths
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate. 求同存異. よく見て・よく聞いて・よく考える
A placeholder line
You are now at your youngest moment in your remaining life.
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 23485
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Airport Neighbors Unhappier Than Ever About Noise, Despite Quieter Planes

Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:07 pm

I don't understand people who buy a house on a flight path then say "but I didn't know there was an airport here!" How do you not know? When we bought this house, we came and toured each property we were interested in. How does someone buy a house sight unseen? Better question: why?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
User avatar
ER757
Posts: 4030
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 10:16 am

Re: Airport Neighbors Unhappier Than Ever About Noise, Despite Quieter Planes

Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:26 pm

seb146 wrote:
I don't understand people who buy a house on a flight path then say "but I didn't know there was an airport here!" How do you not know? When we bought this house, we came and toured each property we were interested in. How does someone buy a house sight unseen? Better question: why?

This!
As a home buyer it is incumbent upon you to do research about the area where you plan to move
 
User avatar
ER757
Posts: 4030
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 10:16 am

Re: Airport Neighbors Unhappier Than Ever About Noise, Despite Quieter Planes

Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:28 pm

FGITD wrote:
ER757 wrote:
I think the article hits on an interesting point, about the "type" of noise complained about. Many years ago when I was but a 20-something long-haired rock and roll guitarist, our band played an outdoor gig in the town where we lived on Memorial Day afternoon to give the kids in the town something to do on their day off. Got permission from the village, notified the police that we'd be playing from 2:00 to 4:00 etc. Into our second set, the cops show up and say neighbors were complaining about the noise. We told the officer we had a permit and he told us to carry on. About half an hour later another cop shows up and tells us we need to shut it down. I ended up writing a scathing letter to the editor in the local paper asking the neighbors why they don't complain about the guy next door running his lawn mower or chainsaw, both of which make a lot more racket than we did.


I think that’s exactly the point, the “type” of noise and the ability to control it to a certain degree changes people’s perspectives.

I have an office at an airport, my windows overlook a ramp/taxiway/runway. It’s noise all day, and it bothers me so little that I’ll even open my windows on a nice day. Between late night delayed flights, I’ve even been known to get some prolonged blinks in with the same noise. But the second my neighbor at home turns on his leaf blower, it's as if I'm in the loudest place on earth.

Leaf blowers are pure evil - tools of the devil. They should be banned except during October when there are actually leaves to blow. Otherwise get a rake or broom and a shovel! - Rant over
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 4744
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Airport Neighbors Unhappier Than Ever About Noise, Despite Quieter Planes

Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:02 pm

LittleFokker wrote:
Isn't it true that with every airport in a residential area, the airport was originally way outside of town and then the city grew around it?


No
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Topic Author
Posts: 14102
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Airport Neighbors Unhappier Than Ever About Noise, Despite Quieter Planes

Tue Apr 06, 2021 11:44 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
This has been an annoying NIMBY issue to me for ages - but now survey data shows that even as planes get quieter, airport neighbors’ ire grows at lower sound levels than before.

Could it be that the issue is less about the noise itself and more about the explosion of narcissism in American society?

As the old adage goes, if you don’t like airplane noise, don’t buy a home within the cone of an active runway.


A few things about this.

Studies show that airplane noise is very intrusive due to the pitch but also the unpredictability of it. Much more so than trains or cars. So it is indeed an issue. Schiphol Amsterdam Airport has much less traffic in 2020, obviously, but the number of movements was more or less the same as the mid-1990s. Which in itself is quite mind bobbling to think about. So the old adage is not entirely true with the increase in traffic over the years. The area in which airplane noise can be annoying is quite large as well, tens of kilometers away, not just below an active runway. I do not mind - obviously - but I live around 50km away from Schiphol, as the crow flies, and sometimes there are planes flying quite low over my city, and I can imagine that that bothers some.

Airports tend to be close to cities, because of the people - costumers if you will - there, obviously. The people are there because of work, friends etc. So this is quite a big problem to coexist. Just to say one of those should not make a fuss is quite strange to me. The airport is there for the people, not the other way around.

Noise pollution is a real problem and can affect ones health, so it is something to keep in mind. Food for thought ;)


I don’t think the study authors are saying noise pollution doesn’t have effects - they are observing that perception of those effects has increased even as noise itself has decreased. This means mitigation’s impact is limited by psychological factors.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Topic Author
Posts: 14102
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Airport Neighbors Unhappier Than Ever About Noise, Despite Quieter Planes

Tue Apr 06, 2021 11:47 pm

c933103 wrote:
Are airports actually quieter, if let say 737 get replaced by 787, or two new 737MAX? Increase in gauge size and frequency due to traffic increase is quite common across the.world in recent decades


Arguably on a dB basis they are quieter. 73Max is quieter than 73G is quieter than 733 is quieter than 732, just as 787 is quieter than 763. The industry has made great efforts to reduce noise - that’s a plain fact. Not really talking about dudes with 1970s bizjets that are barely stage IIIB compliant.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
FGITD
Posts: 1494
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:44 pm

Re: Airport Neighbors Unhappier Than Ever About Noise, Despite Quieter Planes

Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:14 am

ER757 wrote:
FGITD wrote:
ER757 wrote:
I think the article hits on an interesting point, about the "type" of noise complained about. Many years ago when I was but a 20-something long-haired rock and roll guitarist, our band played an outdoor gig in the town where we lived on Memorial Day afternoon to give the kids in the town something to do on their day off. Got permission from the village, notified the police that we'd be playing from 2:00 to 4:00 etc. Into our second set, the cops show up and say neighbors were complaining about the noise. We told the officer we had a permit and he told us to carry on. About half an hour later another cop shows up and tells us we need to shut it down. I ended up writing a scathing letter to the editor in the local paper asking the neighbors why they don't complain about the guy next door running his lawn mower or chainsaw, both of which make a lot more racket than we did.


I think that’s exactly the point, the “type” of noise and the ability to control it to a certain degree changes people’s perspectives.

I have an office at an airport, my windows overlook a ramp/taxiway/runway. It’s noise all day, and it bothers me so little that I’ll even open my windows on a nice day. Between late night delayed flights, I’ve even been known to get some prolonged blinks in with the same noise. But the second my neighbor at home turns on his leaf blower, it's as if I'm in the loudest place on earth.

Leaf blowers are pure evil - tools of the devil. They should be banned except during October when there are actually leaves to blow. Otherwise get a rake or broom and a shovel! - Rant over


You know it’s bad when I had to get heavier duty ear protection to run the leaf blower than I have for working on the ramp.
 
User avatar
c933103
Posts: 5297
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Airport Neighbors Unhappier Than Ever About Noise, Despite Quieter Planes

Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:12 am

Aaron747 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Are airports actually quieter, if let say 737 get replaced by 787, or two new 737MAX? Increase in gauge size and frequency due to traffic increase is quite common across the.world in recent decades


Arguably on a dB basis they are quieter. 73Max is quieter than 73G is quieter than 733 is quieter than 732, just as 787 is quieter than 763. The industry has made great efforts to reduce noise - that’s a plain fact. Not really talking about dudes with 1970s bizjets that are barely stage IIIB compliant.

What I mean is, 1× 737NG vs 2× 737MAX, or 1× 737NG vs 1× 787, since over the years it is common for larger or more aircraft being used as a response to ridership increase
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate. 求同存異. よく見て・よく聞いて・よく考える
A placeholder line
You are now at your youngest moment in your remaining life.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Topic Author
Posts: 14102
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Airport Neighbors Unhappier Than Ever About Noise, Despite Quieter Planes

Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:18 am

c933103 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Are airports actually quieter, if let say 737 get replaced by 787, or two new 737MAX? Increase in gauge size and frequency due to traffic increase is quite common across the.world in recent decades


Arguably on a dB basis they are quieter. 73Max is quieter than 73G is quieter than 733 is quieter than 732, just as 787 is quieter than 763. The industry has made great efforts to reduce noise - that’s a plain fact. Not really talking about dudes with 1970s bizjets that are barely stage IIIB compliant.

What I mean is, 1× 737NG vs 2× 737MAX, or 1× 737NG vs 1× 787, since over the years it is common for larger or more aircraft being used as a response to ridership increase


Noise impact is recorded and analyzed on a per-aircraft basis, not as an aggregate measure. Frequency increase is also seen in many markets, and comparing to the mid-1980s there is simply no comparison in noise. 6 E190s are still a hell of a lot quieter than 3 727s.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 23485
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Airport Neighbors Unhappier Than Ever About Noise, Despite Quieter Planes

Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:14 am

ER757 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
I don't understand people who buy a house on a flight path then say "but I didn't know there was an airport here!" How do you not know? When we bought this house, we came and toured each property we were interested in. How does someone buy a house sight unseen? Better question: why?

This!
As a home buyer it is incumbent upon you to do research about the area where you plan to move


We spent an entire day driving around Bakersfield and another entire day driving around Lancaster looking at the neighborhoods and the towns in general. Those two towns seemed to have homes we can afford. The neighborhoods, however, were not that great. This is why I don't understand.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
LCDFlight
Posts: 947
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:22 pm

Re: Airport Neighbors Unhappier Than Ever About Noise, Despite Quieter Planes

Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:28 am

Generally, in the US, airports have been there longer than most or all local citizens.

There is a simple option to eliminate airport noise, and that is to take personal responsibility not to visit (or certainly, to live in) cities that are near an airport.

This is about taking responsibility for your personal life choices.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Topic Author
Posts: 14102
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Airport Neighbors Unhappier Than Ever About Noise, Despite Quieter Planes

Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:00 am

LCDFlight wrote:
Generally, in the US, airports have been there longer than most or all local citizens.

There is a simple option to eliminate airport noise, and that is to take personal responsibility not to visit (or certainly, to live in) cities that are near an airport.

This is about taking responsibility for your personal life choices.


Absolutely true, nevertheless federal and local authorities have to pay close attention to noise levels and abatement updates because this issue draws residential ire like few others.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
JJJ
Posts: 3975
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Airport Neighbors Unhappier Than Ever About Noise, Despite Quieter Planes

Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:16 am

LCDFlight wrote:
Generally, in the US, airports have been there longer than most or all local citizens.


And I think pretty much everywhere else, too.

Our small GA club gets noise complaints every year (it's mostly a holiday home area), we always point at the old pic of the runway in the 60s surrounded just by farmer fields and the old shack.

Should have checked before buying/renting mate.

That said, we are not very optimistic about the long term prospects of the club, at some point developers will make a good enough offer.
 
LCDFlight
Posts: 947
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:22 pm

Re: Airport Neighbors Unhappier Than Ever About Noise, Despite Quieter Planes

Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:13 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
Generally, in the US, airports have been there longer than most or all local citizens.

There is a simple option to eliminate airport noise, and that is to take personal responsibility not to visit (or certainly, to live in) cities that are near an airport.

This is about taking responsibility for your personal life choices.


Absolutely true, nevertheless federal and local authorities have to pay close attention to noise levels and abatement updates because this issue draws residential ire like few others.


People do the same thing with busy streets in my town. "Oh, look at this reasonably-priced big house on a busy street. Let's BAN CAR TRAFFIC in order to make this street into a park where I can walk my dog."
Last edited by LCDFlight on Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Topic Author
Posts: 14102
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Airport Neighbors Unhappier Than Ever About Noise, Despite Quieter Planes

Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:15 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
Generally, in the US, airports have been there longer than most or all local citizens.

There is a simple option to eliminate airport noise, and that is to take personal responsibility not to visit (or certainly, to live in) cities that are near an airport.

This is about taking responsibility for your personal life choices.


Absolutely true, nevertheless federal and local authorities have to pay close attention to noise levels and abatement updates because this issue draws residential ire like few others.


People do the same thing with busy streets in my town. "Oh, look at this reasonably-priced big house on a busy street. Let's BAN CAR TRAFFIC in order to make this street into a park where I can walk my dog."


I'd respond the same way as this issue: want to walk your dog in a park? Buy next to a park. Or better yet, work harder and buy a big enough spread to have a park for a backyard. :melting:
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
WIederling
Posts: 9986
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Airport Neighbors Unhappier Than Ever About Noise, Despite Quieter Planes

Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:39 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
People do the same thing with busy streets in my town. "Oh, look at this reasonably-priced big house on a busy street. Let's BAN CAR TRAFFIC in order to make this street into a park where I can walk my dog."


Seems to be the norm now.

Next town they built a returment home at the outskirts aside a Bundestraße ( B79 )
that carries heavy traffic : commuters and HGV to reach/bypass the A7.

next thing you see is the residents have forced a 30km/h limit for that road segment.
Traffic congestion every morning and evening.

Hamburg Airport in the 50ties and 60ties had infernally loud airplanes. 707, DC8, CV880, CV990 ..
The fringe was mostly Schrebergärten owned by the state.
what real estate went for sale was going cheaply. . because of the noise.
Now with a massive reduction in noise people suddely notice that they have a right to silence.
( to better hear the ghetto blasters and car hifi of their kids :-)
Murphy is an optimist
 
User avatar
ER757
Posts: 4030
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 10:16 am

Re: Airport Neighbors Unhappier Than Ever About Noise, Despite Quieter Planes

Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:26 pm

seb146 wrote:
ER757 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
I don't understand people who buy a house on a flight path then say "but I didn't know there was an airport here!" How do you not know? When we bought this house, we came and toured each property we were interested in. How does someone buy a house sight unseen? Better question: why?

This!
As a home buyer it is incumbent upon you to do research about the area where you plan to move


We spent an entire day driving around Bakersfield and another entire day driving around Lancaster looking at the neighborhoods and the towns in general. Those two towns seemed to have homes we can afford. The neighborhoods, however, were not that great. This is why I don't understand.

My brother lives in Bakersfield - when my cousin asked him how he liked it he said "If the Good Lord were to give the world an enema, Bakersfield is where they'd stick the hose." I spent a week in Bakersfield one night
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 23485
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Airport Neighbors Unhappier Than Ever About Noise, Despite Quieter Planes

Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:53 pm

ER757 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
ER757 wrote:
This!
As a home buyer it is incumbent upon you to do research about the area where you plan to move


We spent an entire day driving around Bakersfield and another entire day driving around Lancaster looking at the neighborhoods and the towns in general. Those two towns seemed to have homes we can afford. The neighborhoods, however, were not that great. This is why I don't understand.

My brother lives in Bakersfield - when my cousin asked him how he liked it he said "If the Good Lord were to give the world an enema, Bakersfield is where they'd stick the hose." I spent a week in Bakersfield one night


Keep going. This is good stuff!

I had my first Aldi experience in Bakersfield, so it wasn't all bad.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8916
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Airport Neighbors Unhappier Than Ever About Noise, Despite Quieter Planes

Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:25 am

Those who complain, recall the open house/showing day, when your trusted real estate agent said there would be hardly any flights, you both nodded your heads and signed the offer/contract.
All posts are just opinions.
 
User avatar
DIRECTFLT
Posts: 2481
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:00 am

Re: Airport Neighbors Unhappier Than Ever About Noise, Despite Quieter Planes

Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:56 am

I live about 1.75 miles from the nearest DFW airport runway, but it's parallel, that far away, so I'm not in the flight path. My home faces east, and I don't even see a line of planes taking off or landing. So no airplane noise.
Smoothest Ride so far ~ AA A300B4-600R ~~ Favorite Aviation Author ~ Robert J. Serling
 
User avatar
DIRECTFLT
Posts: 2481
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:00 am

Re: Airport Neighbors Unhappier Than Ever About Noise, Despite Quieter Planes

Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:59 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
Those who complain, recall the open house/showing day, when your trusted real estate agent said there would be hardly any flights, you both nodded your heads and signed the offer/contract.


But what neither you or the agent may know about, is planned airport expansion, new/extended runways and the like...
Smoothest Ride so far ~ AA A300B4-600R ~~ Favorite Aviation Author ~ Robert J. Serling
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Topic Author
Posts: 14102
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Airport Neighbors Unhappier Than Ever About Noise, Despite Quieter Planes

Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:01 am

DIRECTFLT wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Those who complain, recall the open house/showing day, when your trusted real estate agent said there would be hardly any flights, you both nodded your heads and signed the offer/contract.


But what neither you or the agent may know about, is planned airport expansion, new/extended runways and the like...


Again, it’s only logical to assume if buying near an airport that it’ll eventually get larger or busier. Buyer beware
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
User avatar
DIRECTFLT
Posts: 2481
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:00 am

Re: Airport Neighbors Unhappier Than Ever About Noise, Despite Quieter Planes

Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:04 am

ER757 wrote:
FGITD wrote:
ER757 wrote:
I think the article hits on an interesting point, about the "type" of noise complained about. Many years ago when I was but a 20-something long-haired rock and roll guitarist, our band played an outdoor gig in the town where we lived on Memorial Day afternoon to give the kids in the town something to do on their day off. Got permission from the village, notified the police that we'd be playing from 2:00 to 4:00 etc. Into our second set, the cops show up and say neighbors were complaining about the noise. We told the officer we had a permit and he told us to carry on. About half an hour later another cop shows up and tells us we need to shut it down. I ended up writing a scathing letter to the editor in the local paper asking the neighbors why they don't complain about the guy next door running his lawn mower or chainsaw, both of which make a lot more racket than we did.


I think that’s exactly the point, the “type” of noise and the ability to control it to a certain degree changes people’s perspectives.

I have an office at an airport, my windows overlook a ramp/taxiway/runway. It’s noise all day, and it bothers me so little that I’ll even open my windows on a nice day. Between late night delayed flights, I’ve even been known to get some prolonged blinks in with the same noise. But the second my neighbor at home turns on his leaf blower, it's as if I'm in the loudest place on earth.

Leaf blowers are pure evil - tools of the devil. They should be banned except during October when there are actually leaves to blow. Otherwise get a rake or broom and a shovel! - Rant over


I agree!! the drone of blowers seems to go on for hours when the landscapers are mowing...
Just think how many more people could be employed, if they had to sweep and rake up the clippings instead of using those infernal blowers.
Smoothest Ride so far ~ AA A300B4-600R ~~ Favorite Aviation Author ~ Robert J. Serling
 
Kent350787
Posts: 1834
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 12:06 am

Re: Airport Neighbors Unhappier Than Ever About Noise, Despite Quieter Planes

Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:54 am

Although first used in 1911, SYD has always had residential development nearby. I’m not sure how long the curfew has been in place, but it was reinforced after a 5am BA 742 go-around from 34L. Other noise measures including resumption of much of the suburb of Sydenham and government funded noise insulation heralded the opening of 16L/34R around 1993.

We bought to largely escape the noise (we lived between the two flight paths) but not far enough when they were changed to provide relief to the then prime minister’s electorate.

There isn’t any real push here on airport noise, although my local FB page went a bit nuts over low cloud and the resumption of many domestic flights early last month.

A bigger nimby issue has been residents of new inner city developments lobbying for long standing music venues to close.
S340/J31/146-300/F27/F50/Nord 262/Q100/200/E195/733/734/738/744/762/763/77W/788/789/320/321/332/333/345/359
 
cpd
Posts: 6715
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:46 am

Re: Airport Neighbors Unhappier Than Ever About Noise, Despite Quieter Planes

Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:01 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Are airports actually quieter, if let say 737 get replaced by 787, or two new 737MAX? Increase in gauge size and frequency due to traffic increase is quite common across the.world in recent decades


Arguably on a dB basis they are quieter. 73Max is quieter than 73G is quieter than 733 is quieter than 732, just as 787 is quieter than 763. The industry has made great efforts to reduce noise - that’s a plain fact. Not really talking about dudes with 1970s bizjets that are barely stage IIIB compliant.


What I used to notice was a 787-9 of Air New Zealand flying over, then a 737-800 going out following it. The 787 was so quiet in comparison.

The A380 was of course the biggest we would have flying over but it too wasn’t particularly loud. 747-400, 777 and A330 on the other hand - very noisy.

Loudest of all was that old VH-DHE while it was around. Thunderous old thing.
 
User avatar
DarkSnowyNight
Posts: 2824
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:59 pm

Re: Airport Neighbors Unhappier Than Ever About Noise, Despite Quieter Planes

Fri Apr 09, 2021 12:31 am

ER757 wrote:
My brother lives in Bakersfield - when my cousin asked him how he liked it he said "If the Good Lord were to give the world an enema, Bakersfield is where they'd stick the hose." I spent a week in Bakersfield one night


I was once hit on by an attractive lady at a small restaurant in Bakersfield. She also was not from Bakersfield. I will have to check to be sure, but I believe on an objective level that this is the literal best thing that has ever happened in that town.


ER757 wrote:
Leaf blowers are pure evil - tools of the devil. They should be banned except during October when there are actually leaves to blow. Otherwise get a rake or broom and a shovel! - Rant over


Any powered yard tools fall into this, yes. I have a neighbor who insists on having the entire crew over every Wednesday morning. I told him once that it was crazy how people only ever do stuff like that during the mid morning hours when about a third of the population is asleep. And that we should allow these things at three AM too if we are to do this. He said that would be 'inconsiderate.' I told him there is a special place in the Inland Empire for guys like him and walked off...
Well, you know what they say. Whatever doesn't kill you...
... Must not be an MD-11.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Topic Author
Posts: 14102
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Airport Neighbors Unhappier Than Ever About Noise, Despite Quieter Planes

Fri Apr 09, 2021 12:35 am

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
ER757 wrote:
My brother lives in Bakersfield - when my cousin asked him how he liked it he said "If the Good Lord were to give the world an enema, Bakersfield is where they'd stick the hose." I spent a week in Bakersfield one night


I was once hit on by an attractive lady at a small restaurant in Bakersfield. She also was not from Bakersfield. I will have to check to be sure, but I believe on an objective level that this is the literal best thing that has ever happened in that town.


ER757 wrote:
Leaf blowers are pure evil - tools of the devil. They should be banned except during October when there are actually leaves to blow. Otherwise get a rake or broom and a shovel! - Rant over


Any powered yard tools fall into this, yes. I have a neighbor who insists on having the entire crew over every Wednesday morning. I told him once that it was crazy how people only ever do stuff like that during the mid morning hours when about a third of the population is asleep. And that we should allow these things at three AM too if we are to do this. He said that would be 'inconsiderate.' I told him there is a special place in the Inland Empire for guys like him and walked off...


She probably identified you as a fellow refugee :lol:
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
User avatar
DarkSnowyNight
Posts: 2824
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:59 pm

Re: Airport Neighbors Unhappier Than Ever About Noise, Despite Quieter Planes

Fri Apr 09, 2021 12:46 am

Aaron747 wrote:

She probably identified you as a fellow refugee :lol:



I am saying this with zero sense of irony... Our conversation did start with a Tom Petty song from that album.
Well, you know what they say. Whatever doesn't kill you...
... Must not be an MD-11.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Topic Author
Posts: 14102
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Airport Neighbors Unhappier Than Ever About Noise, Despite Quieter Planes

Fri Apr 09, 2021 12:51 am

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

She probably identified you as a fellow refugee :lol:



I am saying this with zero sense of irony... Our conversation did start with a Tom Petty song from that album.


Tom would be okay with that kind of serendipity. :D
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
User avatar
DIRECTFLT
Posts: 2481
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:00 am

Re: Airport Neighbors Unhappier Than Ever About Noise, Despite Quieter Planes

Fri Apr 09, 2021 1:28 am

Loudest I personally heard, in the late 80's, when I lived about 1.5 miles from DFW, was a morning takeoff of the Concorde. That, and when Delta had their aircraft maintenance building operational on the East side of DFW. They would run up the jet engines for 10-15 seconds at a time, late at night.
Smoothest Ride so far ~ AA A300B4-600R ~~ Favorite Aviation Author ~ Robert J. Serling

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Dutchy, vhqpa and 57 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos